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Origins: Maid of Cockenzie

Steve Gardham 23 Sep 18 - 10:43 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 18 - 02:09 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Sep 18 - 06:13 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Sep 18 - 06:23 PM
Jack Campin 24 Sep 18 - 06:41 PM
GUEST 24 Sep 18 - 11:31 PM
Johnny J 25 Sep 18 - 04:31 AM
Jack Campin 25 Sep 18 - 04:56 AM
Steve Gardham 25 Sep 18 - 05:00 AM
Jack Campin 25 Sep 18 - 08:38 AM
GUEST 25 Sep 18 - 09:08 AM
Steve Gardham 25 Sep 18 - 03:19 PM
Tattie Bogle 26 Sep 18 - 07:30 PM
Tattie Bogle 26 Sep 18 - 07:50 PM
Joe Offer 26 Sep 18 - 11:43 PM
Tattie Bogle 27 Sep 18 - 08:35 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 27 Sep 18 - 01:10 PM
Joe Offer 27 Sep 18 - 01:46 PM
GUEST 27 Sep 18 - 02:05 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 27 Sep 18 - 02:29 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 18 - 03:02 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 18 - 03:04 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 18 - 03:29 PM
Tattie Bogle 27 Sep 18 - 03:36 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 18 - 04:50 PM
Tattie Bogle 27 Sep 18 - 06:21 PM
Joe Offer 27 Sep 18 - 08:47 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 18 - 06:41 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Sep 18 - 09:11 AM
Jack Campin 30 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Sep 18 - 10:32 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 30 Sep 18 - 12:29 PM
Steve Gardham 30 Sep 18 - 02:16 PM
Lighter 30 Sep 18 - 08:09 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Oct 18 - 11:04 AM
GUEST 02 Oct 18 - 07:43 AM
Steve Gardham 02 Oct 18 - 08:28 AM
GUEST 02 Oct 18 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Davie Robertson 11 Oct 18 - 01:33 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Oct 18 - 02:29 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Oct 18 - 02:58 PM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 18 - 05:13 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Oct 18 - 05:47 PM
Tattie Bogle 11 Oct 18 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Davie Robertson 12 Oct 18 - 05:37 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Oct 18 - 03:19 PM
Tattie Bogle 13 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM
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Subject: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 10:43 AM

Whilst things are a bit quiet here's one for the song searchers.
Printed in a J. Morren of Edinburgh chapbook c1800 is this ballad in good Child Ballad style, but more than likely an imitation.
It's the second song along with 'a version of 'The Blaeberries'. The phraseology is much like that of a Child Ballad and starts with that old chestnut 'It fell about the Martinmas time'

The Maid of Cockenzie

The setting is Cockenzie near Edinburgh and the man is the second son of an Earl and as Wigton Castle is mentioned, possibly the Earl of Wigton, who has died. Because his older brother has inherited he has to make his way as a soldier fighting in the wars abroad.

There are 25 stanzas with no divisions, so 100 lines.

Plot: He is at an inn and asks the incumbent bawd to find him a girl to drink with him. The maid is found, complies and when he gets her in his room he locks the door and rapes her. In good 'Willie of Winsbury' style she asks his name and he admits to the above description. He has to go off to war and she finds out she is pregnant. She is beaten by her parents. She travels around the country till she comes to Plymouth, where...surprise, surprise, the earl's son is just arriving in a boat. She has their son with her and reminds him who she is. And in good 19th century tradition they get married (which wouldn't have happened in a genuine Child Ballad).

If you want to see the whole thing it's online in the Murray Collection at Ghent University (Glasgow) ref Mu52 e 20, item 4.

I'm particularly interested to know if it occurs in oral tradition or any other sources.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 02:09 PM

Can't see the reference on Gwent Uni website. Do you have to register to access this particular song? I note some other similar links are there.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 06:13 PM

My ref is GHENT but if you Google the Murray Collection you should be able to find it. I'll try to find a better reference.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 06:23 PM

I found the reference easily enough on Glasgow University Website but couldn't find the image. I wonder if Ghent (Belgium) University is hosting the images. Here's the ref anyway
http://eleanor.lib.gla.ac.uk/record=b1678939


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 06:41 PM

This is a clickable form of that entry - no link to Ghent, it's a paper copy in the Special Collections department of Glasgow University Library. I could go there on Friday next week.

http://eleanor.lib.gla.ac.uk/record=b1678939


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 11:31 PM

Sorry, I meant Ghent above it was a typo (or it could have been the dreaded auto correct?). Thanks for info, Steve.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:31 AM

Maids in Cockenzie?

No way. You have to travel at least as far as Aberlady to find any in East Lothian.

;-))


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:56 AM

If it is in fact online at Ghent, could we have a URL?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 05:00 AM

Yes, that's where I clocked it. I can easily scan my copy and email to interested parties. At 100 lines it would take me a while to type it here.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 08:38 AM

This is the scan of the chapbook:

http://www.chapbook.ugent.be/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Sp.-Coll.-160-i15-two-excellent-new-songs.pdf


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 09:08 AM

Many thanks for doing that, Jack.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:19 PM

Well done, Jack, and thanks! Any thoughts and comments welcome. An intriguing piece in several ways.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 07:30 PM

Fascinating stuff! By coincidence, we were in Cockenzie yesterday, including visiting the historic Cockenzie House, which was occupied by John Cope and his soldiers in the lead-up to the Battle of Prestonpans in 1745.
Cockenzie House
There is mention of the Earl of WINTON (not Wigton) in the script in this link: Winton is anther place in East Lothian, not too far away.

And also my grandparents on my mother's side were called Morren, so should trace the family tree back a bit further!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 07:50 PM

However.....having looked again at Jack's link, the text undoubtedly says Wigton Castle: but having looked that up, it seems it was "probably built by Alexander 111 in the 1280s but demolished by the Bruces in 1310": but an Earldom of Wigton remained for some centuries after that.
See: Wigton


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 11:43 PM

I keep hoping to hear, "I will," said the little red hen...that somebody will volunteer to transcribe the lyrics for this song from the link that Jack provided....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 08:35 AM

Maybe copy and paste and a change of font will work, Joe! Might try later. And living in Scotland, I have on many occasions been called "hen"!


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Subject: ADD: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM

I'll make a start:

MAID OF COCKENZIE

It fell about the Martinmas time,
    when the gentlemen was drinking wine,
And a' the talk that they had there,
    the lassie s dress'd so fine.
Out then spake a tall young man,
    the tallest of the company;
Says the bonniest lass that e'er I saw
    is now come to Cockenzie.
I would give a guinea he said,
    a guinea and a pint of wine;
I would give it to any oyster-wife
    to get the girl with me to dine.
Come in, come in ye pretty girl,
    come in and speak with me,
And get a glass of the wine so red,
    it is new come from Italy.
First he took her up the stair,
    to the drinking of the wine;
She stood and told some tales of love,
    sine turned and locked her in.
First he view'd her lovely face,
    and sine her lovely chin,
And ay he kiss'd her rosey lips,
    but the girl would not incline.
My mother's standing on the street,
    and trembling every limb,
And altho' I'm young and beautiful,
    it is but lust you're in.
He has ta'en her by the middle small,
    and laid her across the bed;
The girl sigh'd and oft times said,
    its woman woe to your trade.
Since you have got your will of me,
    and brought my body to shame;
You will be as good, kind Sir, she said,
    and tell me what's your name.
If I tell you my name he said,
    is what I never did to none,
I am an Earls second son.
    and my father is dead and gone.
My oldest brother heirs the land,
    and there's nothing left for me,
But to be a servant to the king,
    or a ranger on the sea.
There's a letter come from Edinburgh town,
    to Wigton Castle for me,
The drums do beat the trumpets do sound
    who volunteers will be.
So farewell my pretty girl
    this parting causes pain,
But I fear that will be bloody news
    or ere we meet again.
The landlady came up the stairs,
    while the girl in tears did moan;
Says woe be to your flattering lips,
    for this unhappy turn
I've done the thing I never thought,
    by the falsitie of you,
My fortune it's broke and I've got the mock
    it is done I'll never rue.
O hold your tongue you foolish girl
    the man has done no harm to thee.
He is a gentleman of noble blood,
    far above your low degree.
O that is my grief the girl said,
    for you have deluded me;
You said he was a farmer's son,
    Nor his wine I ne'er had pried.
By sad mischance she with child did prove,
    and was sadly tossed about,
Her father beat her back and side,
    and her mother turned her out.
She has travell'd east, she has travell'd west,
    for seven years and a day,
Until she came to Plymouth town
    and there a convoy lay.
As she was standing on the shore,
    with her son into her hand,
She spyed a boat of noblemen,
    coming rowing to the land.
Don't you mind Cockenzie, kind sir,
    where the wine it was so fair,
Where the old bawd betray'd a maid,
    whose beauty was so rare.
First he look'd her in the face,
    her cheeks were pale and wane,
O woman said he know ye that place,
    or are you my lovely one?
Yes, I am the maid that you betray'd
    here is your son in pledge of sorrow,
He took her in his arms twa
    and his tears was not to borrow.
Thrice welcome jewel here to me,
    and this my only son:
This day you shall be my wedded bride,
    for the love that is past and gone.
The license he bought and married were
    and he dress'd her up so fine:
But she never forgot the simpring wife,
    and the drinking of the wine.

FINIS.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 01:10 PM

This was underway while you were posting Steve, but I'll post my transcription anyway.

Mick


THE MAID OF COCKENZIE

(1) It fell about the Martinmas time,
  when the gentlemen was drinking wine,
And a' the talk that they had there,
  the lassies dress'd so fine.

(2) Out then spake a tall young man,
  the tallest of the company;
Says the bonniest lass that e'er I saw
  is now come to Cockenzie.

(3) I would give a guinea he said,
  a guinea and a pint of wine;
I would give it to any oyster-wife
  to get the girl with me to dine.

(4) Come in, come in ye pretty girl,
  come in and speak with me,
And get a glass of the wine so red,
  it is new come from Italy.

(5) First he took her up the stair,
  to the drinking of the wine;
She stood and told some tales of love,
  sine turned and locked her in.

(6) First he view'd her lovely face.
  and sine her lovely chin,
And ay he kiss'd her rosey lips,
  but the girl would not incline.

(7) My mother's standing on the street,
  and trembling every limb,
And altho' I'm young and beautiful,
  it is but lust you're in,

(8) He has ta'en her by the middle small,
  and laid her across the bed;
The girl sigh'd* and oft times said,
  its woman woe to your trade.

(9) Since you have got your will of me,
  and brought my body to shame;
You will be as good, kind Sir, she said,
  and tell me your what's your name.

(10) If I tell you my name he said,
  is what I never did to none,
I am an Earls second son,
  and my father is dead and gone.

(11) My oldest brother heirs the land,
  and there's nothing left for me,
But to be a servant of the king,
  or a ranger on the sea.

(12) There's a letter come from Edinburgh town,
  to Wigton Castle for me,
The drums do beat the trumpets do sound
  who Volunters will be.

(13) So farewell my pretty girl,
  this parting causes pain,
But I fear that will be bloody news
  or ere we meet again.

(14) The landlady came up the stairs,
  while the girl in tears did moan;
Says woe be to your flattering lips,
  for this unhappy turn+

(15) I've done the thing I never thought,
  by the falsitie# of you,
My fortune it's broke, and I've got the mock
  it it done I'll ne'er rue

(16) O hold your tongue you foolish girl,
  the man has done no harm to thee.
He is a gentleman of noble blood,
  far above your low degree.

(17) O that is my grief the girl said,
  for you have deluded me;
You said he was a farmer's son,
  or his wine I ne'er had pried.

(18) By sad mischance she with child did prove,
  and was sadly tossed about,
Her father beat her back and side,
  and her mother turn'd her out-

(19) She has travell'd east, she has travell'd west,
  for seven year and a day,
Until she came to Plymouth town
  and there a convoy lay

(20) As she was standing on the shore,
  with her son into her hand,
She spyed a boat of noblemen,
  coming rowing to the land.

(21) Don't you mind Cockenzie, kind sir,
  where the wine it was so fair,
Where the old bawd betray'd a maid,
  whose beauty was so rare

(22) First he look'd her in the face,
  her cheeks were pale and wane.
O woman said he know ye that place,
  or are you my lovely one?

(23) Yes, I am the maid that you betray'd
  here is your son in pledge of sorrow,
He took her in his arms twa,
  and his tears was not to borrow.

(24) Thrice welcome jewel here to me,
  and this my only son:
This day you shall be my wedded bride,
  for the love that is past and gone.

(25) The license he bought and married were
  and he dress'd her up so fine:
But she never forgot the simpring wife,
  and the drinking of the wine.



* - sigh'd - start of word unclear, but fairly certain
+ - turn   - word unclear
# - falsitie - it not clear, but seems to be the reading

The original is continuous. I've divided it into quatrains and numbered them to facilitate discussion.

(Note I've edited my original of this following discussions below and comparing it with Steve's transcription. See my post of 30 Sep 18 - 12:29 PM for details - MCP)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 01:46 PM

"I will," said the Little Red Hens, and they did. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Steve, I hope you don't mind if I combine your transcription into one post. You were smart to post your transcription in parts, as you did. I often do that, too. But my magic edit button can combine them.
Thanks again, Steve and Mick.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:05 PM

Fals?ie = falsitie (falsity)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:29 PM

Guest - falsitie was my own first reading of the word,but I didn't have time to check it. I've just had a look at the image and manipulated the levels and it is consistent with what can be seen. (And I see that's Steve's reading too).

The last word of the following line is interesting too. Steve has it transcribed as mock, I read it as moek. The online Scots dictionary gives no entry for moek, but it does rhyme with the first half of the line. To me it definitely looks more like moek in the book and I don't like I've got the mock.

MIck


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:02 PM

Mick, definitely a 'c' with a fleck of ink. 'I've made a mockery of myself.' Jack is on board. He might have an opinion here.


figh'd ...definitely a 'g' before the h so it really couldn't be anything else looking at the spacing


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:04 PM

And Tattie of course, hen!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:29 PM

Regarding 'Wigton' these pieces are rarely based even loosely on anything real. The maid is not named though the setting near where it was printed. Using the family name of a more remote defunct person would be a typical ploy, giving the plot some possible credence yet far enough distant for the average reader to be able to imagine it based on a real event. Most of the details are generally acceptable as real events of the 18th century or earlier, with the exception of the totally unrealistic conclusion, for a variety of reasons.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:36 PM

Purc, purc: that's ma hen soond!
Do we have any idea of a tune for it? Hen's March to the Midden? Maybe not!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 04:50 PM

'Battle of Otterburn' works for me. Similar first line.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 06:21 PM

I read that as Falsitie - falseness as we might now say, and
I have got the mock - maybe meaning "I have been mocked"?

As for a tune, with a bit of elision of syllables it might almost work to the (Fairport?) Matty Groves tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 08:47 PM

This is fun. Thanks, everybody.

👍


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 06:41 PM

Mick, Broke = brock in Yorkshire and further north.
'She brock 'is 'art.'


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 09:11 AM

Still would appreciate some feedback from anyone familiar with Child Ballads, Mick, Jon, Richie, Jack, Jim Brown, Matthew Edwards etc....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM

I've only got my phone for the Internet at the moment, and with Mudcat's current instability on that, I can't expect to contribute much to long threads. Will try again tomorrow at the library.

A "mock" according to the AUP Scots Dictionary is one of the tiny non-viable eggs hens sometimes lay. Brilliant image in the context. But it's a local usage, mainly West Lothian. The song is a weird mixture of stuff like that, which has to have originated in Scotland, and generic ballad-mongering that could have been written anywhere.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:32 AM

Hi Jack
I'm happy it was written in Edinburgh, and some of the language and ideas are certainly broadside writer material, but there is also a heavy nod to the muckle ballads in there, so written by somebody with that sort of background c1800. I'm intrigued but have a few ideas as to how and who. Would just like to see a few other ideas before I express my full opinions. There are actually ballads in Child that have similar mixtures, especially among the higher numbers. 293 John of Hazelgreen springs to mind. Amazing co-incidence that this is also set near Edinburgh and possibly the west coast (Hazley Green is near Wigtown, I know Wigton is in Cumbria but Wigtown may have been intended.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:29 PM

I've finally got around to comparing the two transcriptions and made the following changes:

1) Q12 - We both made a slight mistake in the last line. I had Volunteers, Steve had volunteers. The word is actually written as Volunters - initial capital, single e. (I new learning to spell would bite me one day!)

2) Q15 - I now agree with Steve that the word I read as moek should be mock as he had. Looking at other letter es the crossbar is pretty much horizontal, whereas what I read as the crossbar is definitely angled, so I'm now fairly confident that Steve was right and it's just part of an ink mark.

3) Q15 - The last line has ne'er as mine, rather than never as in Steve's.

4) Q17 - I'm fairly sure that at the start of the last line my or is correct, rather than Steve's Nor. While there is a faint ink smudge before or, I think the spacing suggests it is just or.

5) We differed in a few line terminal punctuation marks, but I think I've now corrected them.

I've edited these changes into my transcription above (thanks Joe!). I've also added numbers to the quatrains and indented the alternate lines as in the original. (I think Steve included the indents in his, but lost then in the html formatting; I've put them in as html non-breaking spaces  ). Note that original runs straight through without any stanza divisions. I've editorially put it into quatrains and added quatrain numbers for ease of discussion.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 02:16 PM

Agreed with all of this, Mick. I didn't indent for speed of transcription but I'm happy with all the points you've added, and thanks.

Have you any thoughts on the actual ballad itself, Mick?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:09 PM

One begins to wonder anew what distinguishes a "Child ballad," formally or genetically, from a piece like this. Did Child know of it? Apparently not, but what would he have done with it if he had?

As Steve says, the author was clearly familiar with ballad mannerisms, though I hesitate to call this a ballad "imitatation," if only because it was written at a time when better attested ballads were still a staple - perhaps no more than a generation after the writing of "Sir Patrick Spens' and "Edward" (whatever difficulties they might offer to pedants). It's hard to distinguish this song's style from that of, say, "George Collins." The early "Collins" text in Shenstone's Miscellany, for example, reads like even more of an "imitation" than "The Maid of Cockenzie."

Now if I'm a chapbook hack who's very familiar with ballad mannerisms, and I write narrative lyrics that display these mannerisms without burlesquing them, have I written a "real" ballad? Obviously it takes notice by Child to be a Child ballad, and some level of popularity and oral tradition to be a "popular ballad." "The Maid of Cockenzie" boasts neither of these, but its relevance to both is pretty clear.

It would be interesting to know more about it, but at the moment I have nothing to add on that score.

Great find, Steve!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:04 AM

Thanks, Jon
I'm pretty certain Child would not have come across it. It wasn't in any of the mss he mainly accessed, nor is there any evidence of oral tradition, but there are indeed many pieces in Child with far less of the ballad style than presented here.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 07:43 AM

Does anybody have a view as to whether The Maid of Cockenzie was written as a poem or a song?
Either way, are there any tunes from that era that fit?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:28 AM

Because the only evidence we currently have is from a songster/chapbook
alongside 'Blaeberries' then we can reasonably assume the piece was written to be sung. The fact that it contains commonplaces from well-known ballads also adds weight to this. If you look back up the thread you will see some suggestions. As it is written in the most common ballad metre almost any ballad tune would fit and a search through Bronson or Greig-Duncan would turn up many many possibilities. As it contains some material common to Willie of Winesbury the beautiful tunes associated with that ballad could be tried.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 10:52 AM

Thanks for the info, Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST,Davie Robertson
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:33 PM

I'm suspicious of the "Earl of Wigton". Cockenzie and Port Seton were part of the estates of the Earls of Wintoun, whose surname was Seton and whose main residence was at Seton, about a mile and a half from Cockenzie. I would guess that somebody somewhere mistook "Wintoun" for "Wigton".


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 02:29 PM

Hi, Davie
Thanks for that. Is there or was there a Wintoun Castle? Was Seton ever described as a castle?


Peter Buchan's version of 'Richie Story' (Child 232 Gf) is titled 'The Earl of Winton's Daughter' and other versions have 'The Earl of Wigton's Daughters' but the ballad here has nothing else in common.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 02:58 PM

Okay,
Googled Winton Castle and the Setons. The only problem I have with that is the castle is so close to Edinburgh, and if the ballad was written in Edinburgh which seems most likely, surely the writer would know the correct name. However the motive I gave earlier might come in here. Perhaps the author didn't want to upset the local nobility and changed the name of the castle.

Of course Mary Seton features in another ballad probably much older.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:13 PM

Winton House has not been described as a castle for a very long time - there wasn't much left of it at the time Colonel Hamilton of Pencaitland refurbed it at the end of the 18th century, and Winton House it has been ever since. (It has two entirely separate wings so that he and his wife (the Mrs Hamilton of Pencaitland that Nathaniel Gow wrote that great tune for) never had to set eyes on each other). The relabelling suggests a bit of editing by someone unfamiliar with the local geography - though then as now, Pencaitland was not that easy to get to from Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:47 PM

I think prior to the beginning of the 18th century all sorts of constructions of various sizes were being described as castles, as long as they were fortified in some way. The steles were little more than a single block with several storeys but they were often described as castles in the ballads.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:00 PM

Harrumph! I did actually mention WINTON as being a bit more local, way back on 26th Sept!! As you'll see from the pic, it could pass for a castle, and indeed those who promote it as a modern wedding venue, or for Christmas parties, stag weekends, etc, do call it Winton Castle!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winton_House

https://www.wintoncastle.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: GUEST,Davie Robertson
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:37 AM

Although their title was "Earl of Wintoun" and they possessed a mansion house at Winton and a town house in the Canongate, Edinburgh, the main residence of the Earls of Wintoun was at Seton. Originating as a fortified house this much-extended dwelling became known as "Seton Palace". It fell into ruins after the forfeiture of the Jacobite Earl of Wintoun in 1715 and was demolished in the 1790s. It was replaced by an Adam mansion often called "Seton Castle" in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
      Yours in pedantry,
                   D.R.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:19 PM

Sorry, TattieB.
I don't suppose we will ever know for certain. The greatest likelihood is that this is a piece of pure fiction purposely created for the Edinburgh press.

I was actually more interested in the form and language and its imitation of the older ballads.


Thanks for your interest anyway, all of you.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Maid of Cockenzie
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

Thanks Davie, for the correct details. I bow to your even more local knowledge than mine!


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