Ethical question about ripping CDs

Subject: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 09:58 AM

I am currently in the process of clearing space out so I have ripped many of my CDs to digital format. Loads more to go though! I was thinking about giving the originals to a charity shop but wonder if this is OK within copyright law.

Sub question. Many are folk CDs - Would anyone on here be interested in them?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM

You bought the material originally, I would assume. You copied it for your own use. I don't think there is a problem with that. Or with passing on used CDs to charity shops.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: doc.tom
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:25 AM

But 're-selling and keeping the copies is probably illegal - but nobody seems to give a damn.' That advice is from an MCPS employee.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:29 AM

Ripping a CD in the UK is illegal, even if it's 'for personal use only' or as a 'backup'. But AFAIC, ripping a CD to your computer whilst retaining the original harms no-one.

Only you can decide if it's ethical to rip a CD and pass a copy on - if I found out that someone was doing that with CDs I've made/performed on, without permission, I'd be pretty pissed-off.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/12021607/Why-in-2015-is-ripping-CDs-still-illegal-in-the-UK.html

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:33 AM

I can't answer for copyright & law, Dave, but "reasonable use"? If you paid for the CD, the copyright holder has their cut. After that, it's yours to dispose of if you don't make a profit, or deprive them of theirs.

So, from the ethical pov, I've always recorded music I've bought for my own use. I bought it, I'm not cheating anyone. I've sometimes been given or lent a tape / etc. If I liked it, I've bought the original; if I didn't, I wouldn't have anyway. I'm not cheating anyone. If I paid for it... I can hand it over to a charity shop if I want. It's my property to dispose of, the manufacturer (be that the performer or label) has been paid the one time they're entitled to expect to be paid, and they haven't been ripped off by me seeking to profit from them.

To me, that is all perfectly ethical. I don't see any issue with recording music for your own use, and how you choose to dispose of something you paid for is entirely up to you. Provided you're not cloning whatever for your own benefit!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:38 AM

Personally, I feel OK about copying a CD if it's for personal use....   On my computer, IPOD, or even on a cassette tape/mini disc although the latter would be uncommon these days.

It wouldn't be right to pass these copies or the original on to someone else although they would be welcome to listen if I was present(not a public performance situation, of course).

One interesting thought..... Many CDs and vinyl albums are now sold with additional free downloads. So, it is possible to legally have more than one copy of the music for your own use I'd assume?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:40 AM

I thought there was something about having to keep the original. Damn! Looks like attic storage is back on the cards.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:42 AM

Posted that before I saw your reply Raedwulf. Interesting points.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:42 AM

The 'Reasonable Use' (i.e. 'personal use/backup') clause was overruled by the 2015 High Court decision, Raed. So it's illegal - period.

But making a 'personal use' copy is harmless, IMHO, and I do precisely that for the CDs I carry around in the car - the copy goes in the car, the original stays safely at home. However I don't, and won't, copy CDs and pass them on - that's theft.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:44 AM

Nor do I accept copies from other people!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM

Would it be theft if I did not make a copy and just gave it away? I am now thinking why bother ripping them at all. I cam stream most things through my premium Spotify account anyway!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:49 AM

In fact, on reflection, if I own the CD and pay to listen to it on Spotify I am being ripped off! It is my duty as a trainee Yorkshireman to ensure that doesn't happen. :-)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM

Bw - As I said, I can't answer for copyright & legal. But I doubt anyone is going to waste time & effort prosecuting Dave for disposing of something for nothing. Etcetera.

The law may well be, as you suggest, black & white. But there's always grey, however divisively B&W something might be. No-one is going to fuss about retaining a copy for personal use whilst giving the original away, surely? Those of us that still have tapes would be in serious trouble, for a start! ;-)

Dave - Don't waste your time. You're either a Yorkshireman or you aren't. If they've told you otherwise, it's because the tight-fisted bastards are trying to screw money out of you somehow… ;-)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:08 AM

I have a number of precious copies of CDs sent to me by Mudcat's Art Thieme, copies of his own CDs that are out of print. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Here in the US selling used media is a thriving business, so books, LPs, CDs, DVDs, they're all in that secondary marketplace.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:34 AM

The point there, Stilly, is that someone paid for the original. So the artist got their cut, the label got their cut, and what happens to the LP / tape / CD / etc after that...

I took Dave's title at face value. Ethical. If you've paid for a legit copy, it's yourn, and if you don't seek to profit or to deprive the original owner, then... Etcetera. As Bw suggests, it might not be legal. But it still feels ethical to me!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:45 AM

But, if you're taking a copy, then passing the original on, there are now two copies in existence. The copyright holder has only been paid for one of them.
Taking a copy for your own use (back up for damage etc.)seems fine to me. But if you don't retain the original I don't see you have the right to retain a copy.
If you donate the original to charity, but retain the copy you've made, the next person to buy it from the charity shop may do the same. there's now three copies in circulation, for which the original artist/copyright holder has been 'stiffed' for two fees. This can go on increasing ad infinitum.

It is NOT ethical. (answer to original question).
It is, however, common practice.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Nick
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM

>>If you've paid for a legit copy, it's yours, and if you don't seek to profit or to deprive the original owner, then...

Hmmm. Interesting.

I have an Aardvark LP that I bought in 1970. 23/6d if I remember on the Deram label. Now I have seen it listed in a book of LP values as anything up to several hundreds of pounds (example ). If I were to sell it at whatever price am I then duty bound to return the excess profit to the band or record company?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 12:04 PM

Poor argument, Nigel. If I buy Exhibit A, I own Exhibit A. Agreed?

If I then dispose of Exhibit A without having made a copy, where does that leave your point? Is it not OK to dispose of something you have bought? Of course, that's not what you are suggesting, but you see where this is going, yes?

Sorry Dave - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima Mudcat meander, etc! ;-)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM

Indignant folks always seem to neglect a key point from this near exhausted debate...

The mega corporations who own the record lables
also tend to own manufacturers of copying equipment and blank recording/storage media...

Music industry execs, accountants, and lawyers will always prosper from the work of exploited artists
who sold their souls to be part of all this corporate profiteering...

..and a minority of singers & bands still get very rich...


There are of course exceptions in our tiny DIY cottage folk industry...


pssst... anyone wanna buy two hardly used and obsolete CD duplicators...
Burn a box of CDs to sell at a gig or car boot sale..
Guaranteed to be mostly be unplayable...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:05 PM

“Ethics”

Legal? - Read the law. If no, then no. If yes,

Ethical? - Are you a member of relevant a professional body? Are you subject to a normative reference? If yes, apply the written standard. If no,

Moral? - Comfort zone; born with you; subject to change without notice until you die; then poof… all gone!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: John P
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:08 PM

I'm a musician with recordings. I believe in getting paid for my work. If someone has a copy of one of my CDs that I didn't get paid for, it means I'm going to work and not getting any wages.

"Disposing" of a CD by giving it to charity, or selling it, or giving it to your friend, isn't disposing of it if you keep a copy. My interest isn't in how many copies of a CD are out there, but rather in how many people have possession of my music. Sorry, but keeping an album and giving away a copy of it is theft, even if there is no money involved. Someone gets to enjoy the fruits of my work without paying me.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:37 PM

Then there's the case where the 'proper' CD won't play correctly whilst the ripped copy plays properly.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM

I wonder if any singers of traditional songs will ever pay back the singers who gave them their material
Nobody has so far
Every time a singer copyrights a traditional song (all traditional songs are "arrangements" by definition, before somebody couchs up the old excuse) they are ripping off somebody else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:15 PM

I had a habit of copying CDs in order to keep the copy in the car, for personal use. I had the 'master' CD at home. I had the copy in the car, and I could only listen to one at a time. I still have the masters and the copies but now I don't listen to either of them, I listen to mp3s I made from the masters and put on my wearable music player.

I believe that I'm on the legal up-and-up so long as I maintain the master and any personal copies I made. But have I checked the actual laws? And would I understand the legalese if I did?


Meanwhile, I still have cassettes that I made by recording off the air. Used 'em a lot, like many folks I know. Was that legal? I never thought about it. And what about cases where I later bought the album I'd initially recorded from the radio? Did I go from an 'illegal' state to a legal one?


Inquiring minds want to know (unless they are bored stiff).

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:24 PM

I think artists with a "how dare you listen to my music without paying for it..." mindset
are doomed to probable obscurity and a life of bitterness...

..though there are exceptions.. very miserly big name exceptions..

Allegedly suing devoted fans for many thousands £££$$$ for including favourite songs on fan websites...

most of us may have some of their CDs...

But they are exceptions because depite their unlikable personalies,
they made/make great music that multitudes of folks want to enjoy one way or another..

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:46 PM

Sorry, John P, but I disagree. I am... whatever I am. Whether or not I am a copyright holder in my own right is beside the point. If I buy a track or an album from you, I have paid you for it. If I choose to put it on my E-device so I can listen to it in the car, when jogging, whatever, that's my choice. You sold it to me. If I choose to give that track or album away, there is sod all you can do about it.

If I seek to profit from it, by making copies & selling them, then I am both unethical & illegal. But when I give it away... Whoever I give it to, you have no say over it. The law can say whatever the law says and, if someone cares to prosecute over the pennies & the principle, the law will win. But I am STILL not being unethical. I am not stealing from you. You sold it to me. I paid you fair pennies for it. How many times do you think you're entitled to be paid for one recording that you were happy to make for the pennies that would accrue, and how do you expect to collect?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:57 PM

"I think artists with a "how dare you listen to my music without paying for it..." mindset
are doomed to probable obscurity and a life of bitterness.."

Well I'm not sure that's what people are saying here (I'm certainly not). People frequently listen to my music with out paying me for it - I perform regularly at folk clubs, open-mics etc., and do support spots for pro musicians, many times with no payment - no complaint, I thoroughly enjoy the 'live' stuff, and I give my time and talents, such as they are, freely for nothing more than the satisfaction of knowing peoople have enjoyed what I do. Apart from a gallon or two of diesel, a couple of Diet Cokes, and my time (most of which I also get to listen to other performers for nothing) it's cost me nothing. And 'listening to my music' in those circumstances is a transient thing - they hear it, then it's gone for ever into the ether - they only 'own' a memory.

But a CD is a different kettle of fish. It's involved a great deal of hard work in the making, and has cost me (and others if it's a joint effort, a band CD for instance) a substantial amount of money in terms of studio time, artwork, MCPS/PRS Royalties (for using other writers' material) and duplication/pressing costs, and it's a permanent thing - they 'own' my music for as long as the CD physically exists. Therefore I feel perfectly justified in expecting anyone taking away one of those CDs to contribute towards the production costs, and reward me for the music on it.

I've never expected to make a living from music, and I haven't been disappointed! But I think, where the production of recorded material is concerned, it's reasonable to expect a return on investment.

The usual disclaimers apply - IMHO, YMMV.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 03:11 PM

"You sold it to me. If I choose to give that track or album away, there is sod all you can do about it."

No, it's unethical, and it's illegal. You bought one copy of the track or CD, but you didn't buy the copyright to that work. The copyright is still owned by the person who published the work, and only the owner of the copyright may publish copies of the work.

"How many times do you think you're entitled to be paid for one recording that you were happy to make for the pennies that would accrue, and how do you expect to collect?"

The owner of the copyright to the CD is entitled to be paid for every copy of that recording, no matter whether it's an 'official' copy or a bootleg. Not my opinion, the law says so. And making a copy and giving it away denies the copyright owner a sale of the 'official' work.

And we're not talking about the mechanics of the application of copyright law here, merely whether passing-on copies of a recorded work - either FOC, or for barter, or for money, is legal or ethical.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 03:14 PM

Where is Richard Bridge when you need him (Richard is/was a member of this forum, and a lawyer of note in the field of copyright law).

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: StephenH
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 05:57 PM

Well, here's another interesting twist:
My local library system (I'm in Canada) lets me download 5 free songs each week.
A lot of times, only selected tracks from a particular album are
made available, but sometimes the whole album is there.
The library system pays for the original recording but, unlike with books, the library only needs to purchase one 'copy' of a recording
unlike the several copies they might purchase of a really popular book.
(As my local library also loans physical CDs, perhaps they do buy
multiple copies of those.)
So, in effect, they are giving away free copies.
I would guess this can't happen under UK law - or does it?
(When one borrows 'ebooks', they can only be downloaded for a limited
time. I wonder if something similar could be done with music?)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 06:42 PM

As an early covert to "Nero Burning ROM"...

AND an advocate of TOR....

Once a file is released to the "Web" it is open source to everyone.

Password, profile, friends, e-mail, favorites, porn, songs, performers,...

It is a VERY simple sort of data.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Pay the fee for six-month of Lexus Nexus....The "semi-dark" web will give you serious shivers about what lies beneath....

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 07:39 PM

I used to be very strict on this eg when guests performed at the folk club would either buy their cassettes or not but would not accept copies from others or give copies. Now times have changed, so I'm told, and it's live gigs that make the money for performers so perhaps if I give someone a copy of a CD that encourages them to buy a ticket for a gig perhaps I am doing the performer a favour.

Certainly, there are many, many people releasing albums these days. Not sure how sales would have a significant impact on a performer's living.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:11 PM

A few years ago Ricky Lee Jones came up to Anchorage to give a great show. Available to buy was a wrist wrap-around with a USB that contained all her albums. Affordable. I don't think it was even digital rights protected. I thought this was a leap forward from CDs but haven't run into it again.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:00 AM

Well, DavetG, to my mind, never mind the ethical, think of the practical.
A percentage of the CDs/tapes/LPs that I've copied have played well for a number of times, and then the sound has deteriorated. Sometimes into a total mess.
I don't know why, but it isn't because I'm doing it on one particular burner, -I've owned four, all bought new, and it isn't because I've used a particular brand of disk nor a specific burning program.

I've also had harddrives crap out and lost copies that way.

I don't think that this problem is just me. I've also bought, from the artists, self produced CDs which have descended into a hammering noise, and another where the silver recording surface bubbled off the disk.

I'm not unlucky in every aspect of my life. I got a new cartridge for the phono and the LPs play perfectly, even the very first one I bought, sixty years ago.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:07 AM

Thanks for your input one and all. Difficult decision but I am going to give all the major league stuff to a charity shop so it is not being wasted. As has been said, I paid for it and am still paying for it in legal streams so I think a charity benefiting from it is ethical, if not legal.

Smaller local artists, many of whom I know, are a different kettle of fish. Not many have their stuff on Spotify and I certainly would not want to injure their CD sales. However, many of them are one off limited edition pressings that are no longer in sale, so does it really reduce their takings? In addition many of them are unheard of outside the locality so sending their work to foreign climes spreads their fame. I am going, wherever I can, to ask the artist in question and abide by their decision.

Thanks again everyone.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM

Perfect solution... Why not donate the CDs to your local Charity shop and then buy them back yourself?

:-))

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:09 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM

Some interesting arguments here, but what happens to all the recordings you hang on to in cherished collections (there are still some of us left)? When I die, someone will either inherit all mine, or pick them up for free without me consciously having passed them on to someone else. Tragically, most will probably get recycled or sent to landfill, not appreciating the difficulty (and many hours) I went through sourcing them in the first place. If I can’t take them with me, I’m simply not going.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:16 AM

I think the law and ethics have been well covered.

In terms of the discs themselves, I wonder if there are organisations that might be a better home for your CDs than a charity shop. The library at Halsway, for example.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM

Possibly, Rev, but the charity shop ones are primarily big names that are readily available all over the place. The rarer ones, once I get permission if possible, could well end up somewhere more suitable.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

"Tragically, most will probably get recycled or sent to landfill"

Unless a CD or vinyl is of sentimental value or a possible "Collector's Item", then as long as you have a good copy in a safe format are you actually losing out by just disposing of the original in "land fill"?

I know that seems a terrible waste and I, personally, would be loathe to chuck CDS out like that but maybe it's the correct and, technically, legal thing to do?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:46 AM

You all clearly have nothing to do - it really doesn't matter!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Pfr sat in the meditation room
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:50 AM

In an infant school my Mrs works in,
they use donated unwanted CDs to decorate trees
around the playground...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 08:29 AM

"You all clearly have nothing to do - it really doesn't matter!!! "

The same thing could be said about every thread on here, Bonzo3Legs.
:-))

Anyway, keeping a copy and donating the original to a charity shop is fairly harmless as things go. I agree.
Also, those performers who feel that they are losing out should surely realise that someone spending a couple of pounds at a charity shop would probably have never bought the original CD in the first place.
Most genuine music lovers will happily pay the full price for something that they really want.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 08:41 AM

I had an addiction to buying CDs which I curbed to the barest minimum in the last 5 years or so.
Now that I find the music of my teens is now available very cheaply on less than a fiver multi CD boxsets,
I started up again...

Last week it was Ska & Regggae, this week Northern Soul...

Yesterday when I picked up Amazon Parcels from the post office, the manager [guess he's late 30s to mid 40s]
mentioned he never buys CDs anymore, and hasn't for a long time...

I made a positive case for cheap boxset nostalgia compilations..
and left him mulling over that thought...

The other bloke in the post office, said the music of his teens was techno and rave...


101 hit songs for £4.99..
I daresay the original artists see next to no royalties on these compilations...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 09:13 AM

..and now there's the increasing crop of expensive 50th and 40th Anniversary Deluxe re-releases...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM

I have to say, old CDS also make good bird scarers if you dangle them from trees.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM

I once attached a load of old CDs to a waistcoat to make armour for my character in a pace-egg play. I told people it was not plate mail or chain mail but e mail :-) Honest!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 11:09 AM

Sounds like a CD character.....21st Century sequins, huh?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 11:14 AM

earrings...???