Ethical question about ripping CDs

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: BobL
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 03:20 AM

To satisfy my conscience, I've kept the originals of everything I've ever ripped - CDs, vinyl and cassettes.
I did warn my executor that his first thought on entering my loft would be to wonder how big a skip would be needed...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 05:54 PM

It clearly does matter to some people, Bonzo, so that was a remarkably stupid comment. Par for the course, I suppose...

The owner of the copyright to the CD is entitled to be paid for every copy of that recording, no matter whether it's an 'official' copy or a bootleg. Not my opinion, the law says so. And making a copy and giving it away denies the copyright owner a sale of the 'official' work.

I refer the Honourable Bw to my earlier remarks. 1) I'm not debating legality, because I don't have the knowledge to do so. And in any case, you say that they say... And I'm quite happy to take your word for it! Ethics is another matter, and each to their own. The only thing you get to say is "Your ethics are not my ethics".

2) Your last sentence cuts both ways - there are a number of albums and, indeed, bands that I would never have got into to were it not for copies. And I will quote myself (to save you scrolling back up) I've sometimes been given or lent a tape / etc. If I liked it, I've bought the original; if I didn't, I wouldn't have anyway. I'm not cheating anyone. If I've got into a band & bought several of their albums on the strength of one copy... I don't need to belabour the point, do I? It cuts both ways. So it may well be illegal, but it ain't necessarily unethical, despite your differing opinion.

Oh, and what about the second-hand market? I presume that the '15 ruling means that 60 years of flea markets & etc are now illegal? It may be the law, but the law, as Dickens pointed out, can also be an ass...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:00 PM

The world wide web IS...NOT....FREE.
This folk forum offers an island of sanity.

Has anyone, recently given a contribution to mudcat org?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I know I am light on my offerings.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 02:52 AM

I repeat - It really doesn't matter!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 03:33 AM

CDs do have a certain potential for other artistic uses.......(wearing my photo-artist's hat)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 03:59 AM

When I began to listen to folk song albums were regarded as being a medium for sharing our music
Doesn't seem to apply anymore (unless there's money involved)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:41 AM

"a medium for sharing our music"

Yes, and we would often learn songs, "riffs", and guitar picking patterns off them.
Were we also "cheating the composer/arist" by not buying the sheet music, their song/tune books etc?

Also, without making excuses for anyone, I very much doubt if artists are likely to make any extra money if their CDs were not made available in charity shops, car boot sales etc. Nor even in the occasional gifting a copy of a CD to a partner or friend.
The chances are that, in 99% of these cases, the recipient would have had absolutely no intention of buying the album in the first place. However, he or she might end up enjoying the music and actually buy the album or, at least, other recordings in the future.

About 30 years, a friend gave me a tape of "The New Victory Band" which I enjoyed so much that I actually bought the vinyl album. Many years later, I bought the CD version. And, of course, I also purchased other music by Pete Coe and some of the other musicians as well as attending many gigs over the years. So they did alright by me, I reckon.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:52 AM

Show of Hands actively encourage sharing copies of their CDs and audience recordings of their gigs because it puts bums on seats and invokes potential buyers of their merchandise.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:05 AM

"It clearly does matter to some people, Bonzo" - half a dozen on mudcat perhaps, which is not many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:18 AM

Shall I be the one to mention how daft it is that some folkies get so angry about
other folks listening to their recordings without paying for it...

When such a sizable proportion of DIY Folk CDs are little more than vanity press,
with no hope of ever being listened to beyond friends and family...

During the 1990s / 2000s CD burning boom,
I lost count of how many bands and singers were giving away their unsold Discs free
to anyone who might want to listen to them...

At best they functioned as promotional tools...

Artists who forked out for proper mastered factory pressed CDs,
with full printed booklets,
fared no better...

If they were out of pocket, that was the risk they took to fulfill an ambition
to 'release' a CD...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:27 AM

Mudcat misery syndrome!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:05 AM

Raedwulf, pfr, et al - please read Dave's OP again. Despite the title saying he was asking a question about ethics, he actually asked about copyright law in the body of his post. Now read my several responses again please. I answered his question about copyright law.

On the subject of performers giving their CDs away, or encouraging buyers to copy them and pass them on, that's absolutely fine - the performers own the intellectual property, and they are perfectly at liberty to give permission in that way. I've done it myself, on numerous occasions, it's a nice thing to do and there's a cool feel-good factor results from it.

The question of ethics is an individual thing - I stated my own ethical viewpoint, that I only make copies of CDs for my own personal use (e.g. in the car, to avoid leaving originals where they could be damaged, or an enticement to a car-breaker), and that I neither make copies for distribution to others, nor do I accept such copies. Those are my personal views on the ethical issue, and I really don't give a flying fuck how 'daft' you think it is, or how unlikely it is that someone doing it would 'get caught' - my ethics, my decision.

I'm happy to leave it to others to decide where their views on the ethics of the issue reside.

Out.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:10 AM

Bwm - fair do's...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:12 AM

Sorry PFR
I'm not sure that the ambition to release a CD (or any sort of album) ever featured strongly in the folk world I occupied
Folk song thrived at its best when it was based on non-professionals who were there for the songs, not the cudos or the money
I said earlier that the people who gave us our songs seldom got paid a penny but were happy to pass on what they had - now we hear talk of performers who would rather donate their music to landfill (and teh ecological damage that implies) rather than let that happen
The times certainly are a-changin'

My favourite story of collecting from source musicians and singers came from pioneering Irish traditional music broadcaster, Cairán Mac Mathuna
He was recording a veteran fiddle player in Kerry wh spent the evening giving him dozens of fine tunes
At the end of the session, Cairán said, "now there's the matter of a small recording fee".
The old man thought for a minute and finally said: "I have no money in the house at present, but I'm taking a bullock to the mart tomorrow if you wouldn't mind waiting".
Where have all those flowers gone, I wonder ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

.. topical to debates on copyright law

the arsehole mercenary lawyers who are a blight on living breathing music culture,
are at it again on the Led Zep money trail...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:01 AM

Sorry guys, yes I did ask about copyright law. It should have been a double barrelled question about both law and ethics. I should be clearer.

BWM. I can understand why you don't accept copies. Where do you draw the line though? Do you not buy 2nd hand CDs in case they have been ripped? How would you ever know?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:20 AM

My simple opinion...

Profiteering Music Industry execs, lawyers, and accountants are far worse parasites and rip-off villains,
than any of us average common-sense music fans can ever be...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:31 AM

"Profiteering Music Industry execs,"
If your interest in in a specific type of music, the responsibility to choose what you are prepared to donate to it is yours entirely and nobody else's
Because there are sharks around that is no reason that we should all sprout fins and teeth
Jim

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:36 AM

In again...

I think there's an important point that's being missed here.

I've never 'needed' to make money from music. I've had a successful career elsewhere, I've been retired on a decent pension for several years. I'm a mainly-amateur/occasional semi-pro, part-time artist. I frequently play for nothing, as does the band I'm part of - I do it because I love making music, and because I get pleasure and enjoyment from giving pleasure and enjoyment to the extent that my talents, such as they are, allow. I don't 'need' to sell CDs. I suppose, as someone alluded to above, they are an ego-driven project, and my only aim has been to cover the production costs - unsuccessfully so far! This is the nature of the 'folkie' world I inhabit.

But there are many professionals who do rely on CD sales at gigs and elsewhere to make up a substantial part of their earnings. These aren't 'superstars', travelling by chauffeur-driven car, staying in good hotels, with a road manager to handle life's necessities, and a crew to lug and set up/break down, and load for them. They are people who drive themselves around in eight-year-old cars with 250k miles on the clock, sleep in club-organisers' spare rooms or on their sofas, and give a great show for the kind of money that probably wouldn't buy Ed Sheeran a decent dinner.

I know several personally.

And every bootleg copy of a CD takes food out of those people's mouths. They need to sell them to be able to keep performing.

Someone also mentioned Streaming. I follow Roseanne Cash - a worldwide artist - who has written widely about the effects of streaming on artists, and fights for artists rights with regard to streaming. She testified before the US Congress that her earnings from 600,000 plays on, I believe, Spotify, earned her the princely sum of $114. I call that robbery on a grand scale.

It's not all roses for artists, even 'big name' artists.

Out again...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:42 AM

And, to answer your question which came in while I was typing my last post, Dave, no I don't buy 2nd hand CDs. I prefer to buy brand new CDs, preferably direct from the artists themselves at gigs, or from their websites, so that I know that they are getting full value for the time and effort they put in to producing them.

If I have to buy from a retailer, I try to avoid Amazon.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM

Ah but I always hand tips to waiters and waitresses in cash, so that I know they get them and not the restaurant owner.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:32 AM

Me too.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:55 AM

"Ah but I always hand tips to waiters and waitresses in cash, so that I know they get them and not the restaurant owner"

Things can get tricky though.
In some restaurants, you give one waiter/ress your order and another brings the soup. Someone else will ask if everything is OK while another serves the main course. Quite possibly, yet another will bring the dessert and and you have to ask someone else for the bill.
.....I haven't even mentioned the wine waiter yet!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 01:21 PM

Pfr: "Music Industry execs, lawyers, and accountants...

KFVD - Los Angeles, 1937
Industry exec - J. Frank Burke
Lawyer - W. Maxwell Burke
Accountant - Loyal K. King

Brothers & son-in-law & partners in the Pacific Broadcasting Co. KFVD was just one of the AM radio stations and newspapers they controlled. Dirty, rotten, filthy, stinking rich, capitalist, politicians all. The very people Woody Guthrie, and you, still protest.

Talent - Woodrow Guthrie (et al)

Producer - artist - consumer. Roles to play. Enjoy the show.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 04:48 PM

I always pay with cash in restaurants and go prepared with a whole range of denominations of coins and notes. I don't want my debit card to go outside my arm's length or field of view for any transaction, anywhere, at all.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: MickyMan
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:29 PM

I have actually gone up to artists at concerts, handed them a five dollar bill, and apologized for previously ripping their CD from a friend.   Usually, they look confused for a second, then chuckle a bit and happily take my "guilt money".   I have yet to have anybody get angry with me about it.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: mg
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:51 PM

I have put together cds with various people...i always prefer non-copyrighted songs. Sometimes people have already recorded the song and I have given up asking certain ones..they are afraid I will make too much money off their songs. I usually have 20 songs on a cd and sell for $10. I can assure everyone I am not making too much money..I try to break even and make enough for the next one.

Anyway, I pay enough copyrights to cover telling some people it is ok to make copies, and most songs are either traditional or people on cd have written them and given permission. But when I was in Ireland..and you can't ship to Ireland for a reasonable price..I wanted to tell MY RELATIVES they could make a few copies. I felt stymied over this because I knew that a couple of people on the cd were adamant over this issue. I just will not put them on future cds so that I can tell people, such as my relatives with my potato famine cd, that they can copy stuff. that a fisherman/woman at fisher poets can copy stuff for his friends after some disaster in Alaska. I respect what people tell me about their preferences but from now on I will only work with people who are free and easy about this..that any cds I produce people will be able to tell their friends it is ok to make a copy or two. This would not work for many people but then they won't be on the cds and can make their own with their own rules.

And to repeat. I will not ever put a canadian song on the cd without copyright proof in hand. It is a terrible ordeal working your way through their strangled mess. I got in trouble with someone over let me fish off cape st. mary's..after I had talked with a family member, after I had paid royalties. I had to destroy a set of just run off cds right before fisher poets. I have learned my lesson about Canadian copyrights...Unless you know the person who wrote it, or experts say it is traditional, don't think you can just pay an agency and be fine. It does not work that way and I don't have the stamina or desire to do that again.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 02:53 AM

i agree with Jim.
Show of hands have a pop approach to folk music so i am not surprised they do what they do