You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers

Subject: You've Got to be Joking!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:18 PM

I bought some old UK blues magazine recently and one of them had a list of - what they said - were the 100 greatest blues singers of all time...and the great Otis Rush - who died the other day - came in at position 33..but wait! Robert Plant came in at position 3 ( Steve Marriott also beat Otis. In fact Steve and Robert both beat Aretha )
    Now, I can’t really take UK blues singers seriously because, almost to a man/woman , they sing in a pseudo-American phoney accent which I would suggest disqualifies them as great singers. They are in fact acting out the role of blues/rock singers.
    Imagine Robert De Niro coming in at number 3 in a poll of the greatest boxers of all-time because he did a convincing job of acting the role of a boxer in “Raging Bull”. Or, try this: Imagine a British Elvis impersonator - and there are some really good ones - coming in at number 3 in a poll of the greatest rock’n’ roll singers of all-time!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:24 PM

Plant and Marriot are great singers - simple as that...!!!

Is it their fault some hack magazine journalists wrote such tripe...???

If it was a reader's poll.. well that says a lot about democratic voting in the UK then [whenever it was..]...

and [cough... brexit..] now...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:34 PM

Plant and Marriott are great singers?
If you do think that, then you are indulging in a form of "suspension of disbelief"!
Because, surely, to enjoy them, you've got to forget that are singing in phoney, pseudo-American accents.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:41 PM

No - I [and millions of other music lovers] think they are great singers...

and you might just have a perverse over-sensitive OCD aversion to perceived accents...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:52 PM

punkfolrocker:
Two things here.
1) You can't hear their phoney accents OR
2) You don't mind their phoney accents

Which is it?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:03 PM

Why does it matter so much to you...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:07 PM

btw... "Lazy Sunday Afternoon" - what part of America do Cockneys come from...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:11 PM

Because some idiot thinks Robert Plant is a greater blues singer than Otis Rush, or Bobby Bland, or Robert Johnson, or Son House, or Junior Wells, or Skip James, or Freddy King or...
I hope you get my point!
It is so ridiculous that the person who complied the top 100 should be arrested and incarcerated in Parchment Farm.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:17 PM

did you actually read my first reply...???

"Plant and Marriot are great singers - simple as that...!!!

Is it their fault some hack magazine journalists wrote such tripe...???"..

Your point now seems to be very much what I said...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:20 PM

Let's try different tack.
When Son House sang, he wasn't acting the role of blues singer: He was a blues singer.
UK blues singers - the majority - create a persona, and hide behind it.
They are not the real deal. They are acting out the role of a blues singer.
Big difference.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:23 PM

Apply the above to Plant and Marriott! When you hear them, you are simply hearing the persona that they created.
A persona that uses a foreign accent!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:25 PM

Yeah.. I gathered all that.. I understand what you are getting at..

But I think you are over amplifying in your own mind
what you consider to be a problem and a reason to disregard two very popular great singers...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:26 PM

..and Mariott's career was founded to a large extent on being a cheeky cockney chappie...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:34 PM

Going in circles here!
Their decision to sing in a phoney, pseudo-American accent disqualifies them for being considered great in any way.
Let's try something else.
Imagine there was a painter who had a very good technique, and he created a piece of art in the style of, let's say, Van Gogh.
Now, this painting could be so well executed that, unless you were an art expert, you would be fooled into believing that it was a genuine painting by Van Gogh.
Would that mean that the artist, who painted the "fake" Van Gogh, should, in anyway, be considered the equal to, or indeed greater than, Vincent?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:37 PM

punkfolkrocker wrote:
"and Mariott's career was founded to a large extent on being a cheeky cockney chappie..."

Exatctly! He is a " cheeky cockney chappie" until he starts singing. That's when the phoney, pseudo-American persona takes over!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:10 PM

Spot the Yank accent...?????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:13 PM

btw.. "Their decision to sing in a phoney, pseudo-American accent disqualifies them for being considered great in any way"

may I politely suggest that is grossly over opinionated bollox...

still.. each to their own corner to paint themselves into...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:23 PM

Ah yes, but this s the voice that got him placed ahead of Aretha etc.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:25 PM

A genuine Cockey Blues singer.Not!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 04:54 PM

sorry - had to take time out for pie and chips [proper British grub...]

I meant to ask what year the magazine was published, and the journalist;
whoever it was made that stupid claim...


My interest in Marriot ends with the Small Faces... one of the greatest bands - and a great singer..

If in later life he became yet another crap white blues belter.. oh dear...

Hard to tell what accent that was in the clip..
or even if it was a recognizable human language from the few seconds I scanned...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 06:21 PM

Accent - pronunciation - here we again in yet another thread touching on the subject. I'll repeat my view, which I've droned on about in several previous threads over the years - but I'll attempt to put a different spin on it...

1. Are we allowed to sing what we like and what appeals to us as individuals, regardless of the origin of the song - or is there some law, rule or convention that says we can't?

2. If we're driven by sheer love of a song to sing a particular song which isn't from our own country, say a blues, or a French song, or a Scottish song (simply because it appeals to us) in the accent of the country of origin, is there a law, rule or convention that says we can't?

There isn't? I thought not, otherwise our choice of songs to sing would be very restricted indeed. Would I sing a French song without trying to sing it with a decent French accent? I'd sound bloody silly if I didn't attempt a French accent when singing "La Mer", for example. Or should I not be allowed to sing a French song?

Whether the audience likes it or not is quite beside the point - the principle is: sing what you like, how you like and when you like.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 06:27 PM

Another point is,
one of you sounds like Canute facing the ocean waves.
I mean, history is history.
Whether or not you approve of it, history has happened. You can't un-happen it.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 07:22 PM

History will not record that Robert Plant was one of the greatest blues singers!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 09:25 PM

Yes you have a bee in your bonnet about this...

Now how about identifying the magazine and it's date of publication,
so we can have some context on when this list held such significance
for UK readers...

I still ask you to consider how extremist/daft you are making yourself appear
by being so perversly negative about two highly respected singers...

Whatever style or genre you might be obsessed with sageguarding the purity of,
they were by popular accepted standards bloody good singers...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 09:29 PM

oops... safeguarding...

though sageguarding deserves to be a word...

maybe in cookery or dungeons and dragons...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 09:32 AM

"they were by popular accepted standards bloody good singers"

errrmm.. one still is...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM

Look punkfolkrocker!
In that 100 Greatest Blues Singer List ( The Blues Magazine, April 2016 ), only B B King and Etta james rank higher than Robert Plant! Please tell me you think that that is ridiculous!
And, Steve Marriott is rated higher than - wait for it - Aretha, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Buddy Guy, Otis Rush, Leadbelly, Magic Sam. Mavis Staples, Otis Redding...
Now, you are entitled to like who you like, but I would be flabbergasted if I thought that you really believed that Stevie - and Robert - were greater blues singers than the legends listed above.
   Now, I know the list is a joke. For example, Son House and Skip James don't even appear in the top 100.
But, again, I will state that no Brit who sings in a phoney, pseudo-American accent should even be considered as a great blues singer. It wouldn't make sense!
   Now, it's fine for anyone getting up at their local folk club - like Will Fry said - and singing in any accent they like, but don't try to tell me that they are amongst the best singers in the world. That would be crazy.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 10:56 AM

I am completely baffled why you are so confused and hot under the collar with my opinion...???

In my very first post in this thread, I made it very obvious that I agree the magazine listing seems dubious and is not to be taken seriously...

My issue, is that you are blaming and sneering at two well respected singers for silly claims made about them
by a hack magazine writer...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 11:03 AM

Well said, Will Fly.

I wonder how many people posting here actually sing. I sing a lot. And I'm here to tell you that when you sing a lot, when your voice gets strong and practiced, that your brain can decide that it's time to sing a certain song, but your voice then takes over and decides what accent and timbre to sing that song in.

If you are British, then by age 30 or 60 you have heard at least a decade's worth of American, and your brain and your voice have an American accent stored in your system. It's your own.

With the blues it is relevant that the American southern accent (not that there is only one American southern accent) is descended from English working-class accents.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 11:10 AM

As a South West Scrumpyshire born and raised Englishman,
I am fairly certain I read an academic article decades ago,
positing that American accents were heavily founded in the accents of settlers
from Bristol, Somerset, Cornwall and Ireland.. an interesting concoction...

[Maybe why Cary Grant so easily/convincingly became a great American movie star...???]

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 11:20 AM

People can sing in any accent they want!
Just don't try to tell me that a Brit singing in a pseudo-American accent is greater than the real thing. That is just plain silly!

If we changed it to another genre...it might help.
Can you imagine any British country artist singing - performing in pseudo-U.S. accent would be rated as a greater country music singer than say Merle Haggard or George Jones?
No, that would be daft!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 11:44 AM

Tunesmith - maybe we could even extend the logic of your concerns to the much debated hot topic

"Can white men sing the Blues...???"

You should know, that my daytime around the house music soundtrack is almost entirely pre 1960s,
and almost completely Black American...

The quality ranges from sublime to dire - frequently that applies to single individual artists...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 11:47 AM

btw..."Just don't try to tell me that a Brit singing in a pseudo-American accent is greater than the real thing. That is just plain silly!"


No one has... you might have convinced yourself someone here said that..

but that's for you to reflect on when you eventually chill out...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:13 PM

Have to Agree with Will Fly. If you like a song and enjoy singing it in whatever fashion you chose then do so. That in my belief is the way folk music works, there are no rules.

As for the accents in the Southern states I believe they developed from a much wider range of people than just us working class Brits. However regarding PFR's mention of Somerset accents,there was an excellent series on television some years back about language which included fisherman from the Georgia Sea Islands who definitely had strong traces of West Country.

Re the OP it's obvious the listing in the magazine is crap. Music isn't (or shouldn't be) a contest.
And just for the record I firmly believe Blue men can't sing the Whites unless you believe that the blues is just a chord sequence.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

Surely the 'great blues singers' who are the 'real thing' owed a huge debt to what came before them? Wouldn't that similarly disqualify them from being great because what they were doing was based on something earlier which was the real 'real thing'?

I am purposely being a little tongue in cheek but...

Things do not pop out from nowhere. They are part of a continuum that has a reliance on what precedes them. I think that neither precludes something that comes later which is based on something from the past being great, nor necessarily makes something great because of its age and/or authenticity.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:44 PM

Black Coffee

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:47 PM

Again, we are talking "greatness" here.
When, some idiot claims that Robert bloody Plant is a greater blues singer than Aretha and Robert Johnson and Bobby Bland...and so on EVERYONE on this site shoud be killing themselves laughing!

Again, Robert Plant and Steve Marriott are merely acting out the roles of American blues singers. That's all they can do. Act!

Son House doesn't act out the role of the blues singer. He is the real deal.

To elevate Plant and Marriott in this way is an insult to the great black artists who created the music.

And, yes, white men/women can sing the blues but foregive me if I find UK singers performing in a phoney, pseudo American accents a huge joke.

Indeed, this whole period of UK artists "singing American" will be one day be seen as a weird abberation, and placed in the same box as the blacked-up Al Jolson.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:49 PM

Points on capitalism and popular media:

The purpose of the list is to attract, entertain and amuse magazine readers. It's working.

A professional recording artist/entertainer does not have a blues "on-off" switch in their head or heart. It's a performance. Aretha Franklin was a trouper and a true professional artist at what she did.

Being an American isn't the point. That's not Bruce Springstein's real voice. He's from the Jersey shore.

Klein, Cray, Kaufman and the first Mrs. Guthrie all agree, Woody Guthrie was faking the hillbilly schtick. But you damn right he had the blues.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

Tunesmith - you seem to be locked in not listening but repeating yourself mode...

Look.. you will not find any mudcatter in this thread or the other,
who takes that list, as you describe it, seriously...

So far all of us are in agreement and scoffing at it...

Magazines, the internet, are full of free-lance arsoles trying to make a few quid
from best of / bucket list / things to do before you die / etc.. lists...

They are inescapable.. they are mostly vacuous bollox...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:10 PM

Well, that opens up a whole new bag of tricks. If Bruce doesn't sing like he comes from New Jersey, where would YOU place him from just listening to his voice?
Also, can you point to a US singer who, definitely, sounds like they come from a particular area.
   For example, how often, when hearing a track on the radio, could an American listener identify the geographical source of the singer's voice.
   Interestingly, a while back on this site, an American was complaining that, annoyingly, Reba McIntyre was guilty of "laying on" the country twang in her voice.
   So that person was critising Reba forsimply exaggerating their own accent.
NOW, imagine how I feel - as a Brit - when the likes of Marriott and Plant, and Elton John, and Adele, and Annie Lennox, and Dusty Springfield and the majority of UK/Irish pop/rock singers choose to sing in a foreign accent from a country thousands of miles away!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:16 PM

"NOW, imagine how I feel - as a Brit - when the likes of Marriott and Plant, and Elton John, and Adele, and Annie Lennox, and Dusty Springfield and the majority of UK/Irish pop/rock singers choose to sing in a foreign accent from a country thousands of miles away!"


phew... well at least they are not all singing in German accents...

Hat's off to the glorious few who flew Hurricanes and Spitfires...!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:29 PM

It's great to see the oft-overlooked Hawker Hurricane getting a nod.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:37 PM

My absolute favourite was the Short Sunderland - that Airfix kit was epic...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:38 PM

Remember old black blues singers usually done sang wid no teeth, whereas British blues singers woke up one morning and checked their knob's still there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:41 PM

Imagine how horrified I'd be if our Great British World War II war planes started sounding like they had american engines...!!!???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:45 PM

Things change and also change with location and social interaction.

I say 'pass' rhyming with 'lass' now rather than 'pass' rhyming with 'arse' both in speech and if/when I sing. So my origins have been modified.

I think it is almost unavoidable. A friend would start speaking like whoever he was with which would occasionally get him into trouble as people thought he was taking the piss (he wasn't - it's just what he did).

If the dominant music is American then it is little surprise that it affects people - even at open mic or singaround level - and strongly influences them. Whether consciously or not.

My dad flew a Hurricane among other planes in the war (quite partial to Mustangs too). The Spitfire had a better PR team

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:48 PM

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that the American blues singers had a good 5-8 hours time advantage due to being west of the UK which is just not fair.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:50 PM

"create a persona" House didn't?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:00 PM

The Rolls Royce Merlin engine saved the Mustang from the ash heap of history (that and a big blower).

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:06 PM

right then... the 100 greatest war planes of all time...

Will there be agreement, friendly consensus on the top 10...???

disputes over what constitutes a war plane...

Such a list might have more objectivity than blues singers,
but probably not much when the disagreements start...

Earlier this week, there was a question in Quora..
"What were the worst WW11 fighter planes..?"
that attracted vey authoritative and informative replies...
At least they had records of accident and crash statistics

How far could we mudcatters get with a list of the 'worst blues singers of all time'...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:13 PM

How far could we mudcatters get with a list of the 'worst blues singers of all time'...???

Well, modify that with the addition of "and most phoney" and the Top 20 names will all be from the UK/Ireland.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:25 PM

Or 'worst blues singer in a bad airplane'

There has to be a blues song in there somewhere

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:50 PM

btw.. that Humble Pie performance from 1973 is Mariott still in peak condition and voice...

enjoyed that...

Reminds me I had some Humble Pie CDs to investigate years ago, but never got round to listening to them..
Could be in any storage box by now...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 03:21 PM

Lock a white guy [the saying goes] in a in a room full of, errrmm, black fellows, and in a week he'll come out 'talkin' like one'.

Thomas Merton wrote once : he heard a group of black collage students in a library talking away like they were white students. I can't remember exactly how Br. Thomas put it, but it basically amounted : SMH.

So, why is it when Blacks talk like Whites they're Uncle Toms, but when Whites sing like Blacks they're Rock Stars. Oh and by the way those back-up singers (for the dude singing Black Coffee) expressions weren't ones of admiration I'd say more like they may have thought, someone needs to bitch-slap that boy, IMHO.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 03:24 PM

And quite honestly, most of those toothless USAian blues singers were blood awful!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 05:52 PM

Blood awful??? Bloody awful!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:03 AM

It maybe be hard to understand to you, Bonzo3legs, but it's kind of telling it like it is, without saying too much, to clear, to keep your neck from getting stretched. I've wondered if Cockney rhyming slang, (at one time), may have been used for the same purpose; communication under the nose have hostile authority, (getting over). Isn't much literature and poetry disguised?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:01 AM

The word 'blues', like the word 'folk', is open to interpretation.

To some - let's say the purists - blues singers represent a downtrodden and repressed segment of American society, and their music is more than music. It has social and racial significance beyond the music which cannot be, by its very nature, be sung authentically by people other than black Americans.

To others, 'blues' is simply another muical style or formula, open to anyone to try their hand (or voice) at, like jazz or opera or rock'n roll. In this sense, a singer's origins are irrelevant, the performance being more important.

As to 'good' and 'bad', or 'best' and 'worst' - it's a matter of individual opinion in the end, as all opinions are individual and subjective.

For myself, I used to enjoy American blues singers when I was in my teens and into my 30s, until other music began to interest me - so I have no opinion either way.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Sonny Walkman
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:12 AM

Interesting thread but many people don't seem to get that it was just the opinion of one magazine and developed it into a 'can blue men sing the whites' debate.

It also strikes me that any discussion about singing in false accents should include something about traditional singers. I've spent countless hours in folk clubs listening to people trying to sound like agricultural workers from 200 years ago - they certainly weren't singing in their own voices/accents. You could site Peter Bellamy as an example - don't get me wrong, I loved listening to Peter but if that wasn't a 'false' accent then I've never heard one. Pretty fair blues singer/guitarist too.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Brakn
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:42 AM

Oh dear, I feel a bit limited now! I'll have to search for songs done in an Altrincham accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:53 AM

Robert Plant and Steve Marriott are merely acting out the roles of American blues singers. That's all they can do. Act!

Nonsense. They are both excellent singers in their own right and have no need to pretend to be anything else. I doubt if either of them would describe themselves as great blues singers but the former is a world leader in rock music and the latter in pop.

It is not their fault that a magazine or its readership have granted them that accolade is it so why be hostile towards them?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmth
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

Oh dear, so many of you are missing the point OR, as I have mentioned already, falling in to the " suspension of disbelief" syndrome.
If, in the UK, a fellow worker, a Brit, walked in to work one day and started taking in an American accent, and carried on forever, I'm sure you would find that, at the least, rather bizarre BUT if the majority of UK/Irish singers perform in a pseudo-American accents that doesn't raise an eyebrow. Very strange.

AND, talking about missing the point, what is Brakn getting at when he writes the following:
    "Oh dear, I feel a bit limited now! I'll have to search for songs done in an Altrincham accent"
Please explain what the above means...in the context of Brits singing the blues in a phoney American accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:28 AM

What about all the great R&B and R&B-influenced singers from over there like Van Morrison, Steve Winwood, Joss Stone, Tom Jones, Adele, the late Amy Winehouse, Joe Cocker, Imelda May etc. with non-American accents, should they throw down the mic because they don't talk like say Ray Charles, Mavis Staples or Jackie Wilson?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:40 AM

So, Tunesmith, are you still saying that all Robert Plant and Steve Marriot can do is act? If so, I think our ideas of what is music will never agree. In my opinion, while they are not blues singers and as far as I know have never pretended to be, I enjoy their music far more than that of many of the old bluesmen from across the pond.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobile phone
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:59 AM

Tunesmith - so on the subject of Brits acting as yanks...
What about the swarm of our actors
emigrating to Hollywood to play American movie characters..

How do you feel about that then...???

Recently some of our best black Brit actors are winning awards in a limited few prestigious roles the yanks could accuse them of stealing from real American black actors...???

Personally I have doubts about a very posh English ex public school boy playing Hank Williams in the recent bio pic.
But I'll reserve judgement until I actually watch it...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 09:35 AM

ps.. as the yank accent is reportedly derived from Ye Olde English Scrumpyshire accent..

I feel justified enough to try and put on a wurzel accent to sing the blues..

Call me "Blind Cider-apple Pfr"...

[an apt Blues name considering the legendary toxic effects on the eyesight of dedicated cider wallopers...]

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:26 AM

Well, actors are acting!
And, interestingly, Hugh Laurie is just about the worst example - and perfect example - of Brits "singing American".
Hugh got great praise, from Americans, for his authentic sounding American accent in the "House" Tv series BUT when he sings the blues, rather than singing in his own voice, he adopts this dreadful American voice.
Now, this is the perfect example of a singer "acting" at singing the blues.
Now, had he adopted a character - called himself "Professor House", or something - and made it clear that he was acting out the role of a old-time blues singer, that would have been acceptable.
But as it is, he is the worst example of a charicature performance and I want to laugh out loud everytime I hear him.
But, my view will carry the day! There will come a time when Brits "singing American" will be viewed as silly, in bad taste, and just plain embarassing.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:39 AM

I am sure you are right, Tunesmith, and I agree that anyone trying to sound like anyone else can be silly unless they have the talents of Mike Yarwood or Alistair McGowan. However, it is my opinion that neither Plant nor Marriot were trying to impersonate anyone. They had no need. The fact that some people in a minority magazine readership believed that they sounded like blues singer is not the responsibilty of the artists. They were not acting. They were being themselves.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:45 AM

Out of interest can you point as at where there is a hint of an American accent in Immigrant Song or Rock and Roll or Stairway to Heaven or Itchycoo Park or The Universal or Lazy Sunday or...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:47 AM

"I Saw the Light" [2015]

Trailer


Old etonian Tom Hiddleston plays Hank Williams

"Hiddleston will sing his own music for the film, also taking on Williams' southern accent.
To prepare for the film and work on his singing and guitar playing, Hiddleston practiced with country singer Rodney Crowell.
In July 2014, Crowell signed on to be the executive music producer for the film..
..Crowell said of Hiddleston, "After nearly a month spent collaborating with this gifted artist,
I'm as respectful of the man's work ethic as I'm mystified by his transformational skills.
Without a doubt, the filmmakers chose the right actor for the job.""

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:51 AM

DtG - Tunesmith is right from the start onto an obvious loser with his gripes about Plant & Mariott..

But he does raise some interesting issues about identity politics pertaining to 'our' kind of music...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:06 AM

Well, of course, Steve in particular, would wear his "cockney hat" and his "pseudo-America" singing hat depending on what he was singing.
   But, it would have been marvelous if he had kept his English voice for everything. That would have been great!
   In a way, it's weird how this "Brits Sing American" phenomena has become acceptable to the masses.
   The Brits - as a whole don't mind, and the same with the Americans.
   Interestingly, in pre-rock days, the BBC radio would not air dance bands if their singers had an American twang!
   And, of course, famously, back in 1964, John Lennon was asked, by an American reporter, why The Beatles sang in an American accent, to which he replied, "Because it sells better".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM

What I want - and so should everybody - is Brits singing in British accents. That would lend so much more character - and authencity -to their performances.
   Again, a singer cannot be the "real deal" if the they hide behind a fake accent.
For example, when you hear Adele singing " Rolling in the Deep". You are not hearing the voice of a working-class woman from London, England but, rather, you are hearing a persona created by a woman from London.
   Big difference.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM

I remember when I first heard Winwood sing "Gimme Some Lovin'" and "I'm a Man" with Spencer Davis long ago and it knocked me over the moon. I don't think those gritty numbers would had the same impact if the singer sounded like Wilfred Hyde-White or George Sanders.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:19 AM

Tunesmith - whatever our disagreement on Plant & Mariott..

I whole heartedly agree with your views on Laurie..

He is very high on my shitlist of performers I can't stand..

Him and Jools Holland, hmmm.. hard to think who is the worst...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:21 AM

...same goes for Van Morrison singing "Baby Please Don't Go" with Them, which is still kickass rendition.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM

I have paused for a moment to amuse myself.. imagining Adge Cutler and The Wurzels singing
"Good Morning Little Schoolgirl"...

Nowaday's they'd get lynched on twitter...

But back in the old day's out in the farming villages...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:08 PM

Imagine, Hank Williams singing English folk songs; now, would you
A) Like to hear him singing them in a fake Engilsh accent or
B). Hear Hank singing the songs in his own voice.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:26 PM

A] yeah.. for a laugh.. "Hank Sings the English Country Garden Hits of Joyce Grenfell" LP...

B] obviously this is the correct answer..

but, interestingly, back in the 1990s, English Band "The The" performed a tribute CD of Hank's songs "Hanky Panky" 1995...

I Saw the Light


Can't say I really detect any accent.. but it is oddly reminiscent of White Album era Beatles...???


There's A Tear In My Beer

" Matt Johnson was one of four brothers growing up in East London. Much of his youth was spent in or around ‘The Two Puddings’, a London pub run by his family over the course of 40 years"


If he wass trying to put on a yank accent, perhaps he's not making a good job of it...???

Anyway, that's just 2 tracks off one of my favourite 1990s CDs...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:28 PM

oops.. accidently posted before editing and completing.. but it'll do...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:30 PM

Whether or not a singer comes from the east end of London, Indianola, MS. or Timbuktu is of no concern to me, if I like what I'm hearing that's all that matters. I like hearing Jack Bruce sing "Born Under a Bad Sign" just as much as hearing Albert King do it, and I love Albert King.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM

This is my absolute favourite Steve Marriott vocal. His voice was his own.

Black Coffee

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:37 PM

gillymor - BANG.. nail on the 'ead... sorted.. end of...


Sorry mates, I'm a west country boy trying to type in a BBC Eastenders mockney accent...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

Answer this: If you played Steve's "Black Coffe" to somebody who didn't know Steve, and asked them to say where they thought the singer came from, are they likely to say A) London, or B) Somewhere in the States?

But, when I hear Hank Williams - or Muddy Waters - I'm hearing somebody who is clearly from the USA, and I would still think that if old Hank - or Muddy - was to sing " I sowed the seeds of love".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

Without sounding sanctimonious I'd add : some things are sacred to people and that Li'l squirrely dude singin' da blues is like casting Harrison Ford to play a concentration camp internee.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:17 PM

If a singer respects a song, and sings it with love and conviction..

Then I suggest the accent, natural or adopted, is incidental
unless it is so grossly false and exagerated
as to detract from the performance...?????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:33 PM

I find the phoney "Oirish" accents you hear more annoying. Still don't understand either how Plant and Marriot are voted in as blues singers or why anyone would suggest they were nothing but actors. I guess I never will.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:57 PM

Blimey, Tunesmith, you don't know much about the not exactly Cockney but not exactly Essex accent which was Steve's natural singing voice. He's not trying to put on any kind of accent in that song.

In your view did Rory Gallagher sing with a foreign accent? As the Crow Flies

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 02:12 PM

Exactly Modette. I have heard neither sing in what may be termed an American accent. Apart from Plant's "Raising Sand". Where he does sing with Alison Krauss! Understandably a country sound :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 02:14 PM

My God, I agree with punkfolkrocker!!

Although I would go a little further:

Steve Marriott had one of the best voices EVER; of any genre.

Humble Pie's Performance: Rockin' the Filmore is still one of my favourite albums after nearly 50 years and nothing phoney about his accent at all.

Back into hiding.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 02:18 PM

..and how long by then over many years had Plant lived and worked intermitently in the USA,
naturally absorbing the accent into his vocal identity...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 02:27 PM

"NOW, imagine how I feel..."

Unpopular. Outside, lookin' in. Like a Trinidadian listening to Harry Belafonte.

1) Don't know, don't care - #1 answer, I don't even need to know your question.
2) Know, care, don't like.
3) Know, care, like.

There are no "down" votes. The "popular" in popular music is all about the #3. If you are not #3, you.do.not.matter.

Nobody knows, or cares, why you don't buy music. Maybe you a hate it, maybe you like dogs barking Christmas carols even better. Don't.know.don't.care.

She who pays the fiddler tags the tune.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 02:51 PM

Modette, are you trying to be ironic or something, because nobody would know that Rory was Irish just by listening to that clip!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 03:00 PM

Phil d'Conch, the comment about Reba McIntyre exaggerating her NATIVE country twang was an attempt to show the Americans how annoying I find Brits singing in a US accent.
Again, I've heard Brits complaining that British folkies exaggerate their local accents for effect ( I've also heard that said about George Formby ) But that pales into insignificance compared with a Brit singing in an American accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:01 PM

Punkfolkrocker said: "and how long by then over many years had Plant lived and worked intermitently in the USA,
naturally absorbing the accent into his vocal identity...???: "

Now THAT is a valid point! I would say, for example, that Paul Rodgers sounds better and more authentic now, than back in Free's heyday, because he has lived in the States and Canada for years.

And, this of course, would be true of many Brits who moved to the States.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:14 PM

Tune: "But that pales into insignificance compared with a Brit singing in an American accent."

That subjective analysis makes you not a #3 and irrelevant to the producers. All the rest is just the cognitive disconnect of being unpopular and "right" ... according to you.

Bruce Springstein covering Woody Guthrie is hokum worthy of the Beverly Hillbillies. Y'all eat that up.

fyi: Jed Clampett sailed multihulls and hoofed a mean hornpipe.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:35 PM

Well, the thing about US is that the range of accents is VERY narrow compared to the UK. It's reckoned that there is a greater range of accents in a small area of Yorkshire than the WHOLE of the USA.
Now, I can't quite believe that, but that's what the lanuage experts say.
So, whatever American accent Bruce has, it's a lot, lot closer to his "New Jersey" accent than any Brit singing "American".

And, that's another reason why Brits should sing in their own regional accent because they are so diverse and rich. And, surely the American's should find that interesting.

Why? Because those Yanks, so I've heard, just love the way we talk.

And, don't start telling me that rock/blues sung in UK/Irish accents wouldn't work because that's nonsense!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:01 PM

Maybe the point about the various accents underlines the point that Lennon made about American accents selling better. Someone from York may not understand someone from Sheffield, but they both understand Elvis :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:42 PM

99...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:49 PM

Now Tunesmith can't even recognise a Cork with a touch of Donegal accent! Unqualified to give judgment,in my view.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:17 AM

>Why? Because those Yanks, so I've heard, just love the way we talk.

Absolutely. I've a sister in law from Portsmouth who was positively befuddled because I didn't know the HMS Victory, (but I always did like the way she handled a knife & fork). I mentioned once that on the internet you could always tell a septic because they seemed as dumb as a post, she held back the smile but giggled, 'septic', bless her heart (her first husband was a captain in the RN)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 07:56 AM

Tune: "So, whatever American accent Bruce has..."

You're down to arguing which one your irrelevant self likes more because he's less fake than the other one based on... "whatever."

PS:
Wiki for "New Jersey English" gives four (4) distinct dialects. One for the Big Man, a different one for Bruce, with two to spare.

Wiki for "York English" returns a language school in Fuzhou, Fujian, PRC.

Noice!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 08:18 AM

So what if Springsteen is adopting a "different" American accent? What's that got to do with anything?
Bruce ISN'T named in the - above mentioned -Top 100 greatest blues singers!
This is the question you should be asking:
Is B B King using a fake American accent? Or Aretha? Or Bobby Bland? Or Otis Rush and so on.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 08:26 AM

Modette, you are falling into that well know trap of knowing where a singer come from, and then hearing the accent from that location.
Because Annie Lennox comes from Scotland, there are those who WILL hear a Scottish accent.
And, this repeated over and over. Take The Beatles! When their recording were first played in the States, NOBODY thought that they were British! Same goes for Adele!

But, from the word go, people in the UK were saying that The Beatles sang in a Liverpudlian.

It took an outside set of ears ...the Americans to see the huge difference between their speaking voices and the accents on their recordings.
Again, if you played any recordings Rory Gallagher, to somebody who doesn't know his music, each and every time, he would NEVER be identified as Irish.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:31 PM

Don't be daft. I had a good idea of Gallagher's roots from his voice before I knew where he came from.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

Really! I don't believe you've!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:43 PM

The Beatles were obviously northern English from the first "yeah, yeah, yeah". Difficult to pin it Liverpool but the glottal stop and intonation in many of songs, particularly the solo verses, make it pretty obvious that they were neither American nor from the south. If you cannot hear it I suggest a good ear syringing :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:57 PM

Dave, please, the Americans when The Beatles first recordings were played in the States assumed they were just another US group.
And , Peter Trudgill, one of the English speaking world's leading sociolinguists says that they were singing in an American accent.
And, finally, John Lennnon admitted that they sang in a US accent.

Now, who do think is correct? You, or all the above.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:11 PM

I had a proper job Scrumpyshire accent as a boy,
which was 'educated' out of me by my mum's aspirations, and grammar school..

I lived up north for a few years, in my late teens/early 20s..

Then I studied in Bristol and London until I was about 30...

By then, I was told by various colleagues I sounded like a Canadian or an Israeli... go figure...?????

The Beatle's singing accents, for whatever intentions, varied track by track, year by year...

depending on who was listening...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:17 PM

I neglected to mention I spent all my years in London living in shared houses, and drinking with
Irish and Scots building workers..

I've been back in Scrumpyshire nearly 20 years, f@ck knows what my accent is now...!!!???

I guess I find out when I record myself singing the Blues...????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:47 PM

punkfolkrocker:
In a previous post, I mentioned leading sociolinguits Peter Trudgill , and - in the late 70s? - he devoted a chapter in one of his books to the subject of Brits singing pop/rock in an American accent.
Interestingly, and maybe not surprisingly, he discovered that the American accent influence on The Beatles weakened as the years moved on.
One thing he did draw attention to is the fact that sometimes The Beatles pronounced words in the way that they probably thought was American ( I don't think any of this was done consciously, btw ) but what came out was neither American nor Liverpudlian.
It has been said that people often adopt ( unconsciously) an accent that suits the material.
    For example, if somebody were to sing the old song "Any Old Iron", they might slip into a sort of Cockney accent because that is how they have heard the song performed.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:50 PM

Tunesmith - Plus factor in the thousands of hours we have all been bombarded with yank accents
at the cinema and on the telly over the last 50 - 70 years...

Careful you dont catch yerself turning into an American...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:53 PM

I'm Irish, Tunesmith, so believe it! We know our accents.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:12 PM

Now, who do think is correct? You, or all the above

To be honest, tunesmith, it doesn't matter. I just listened to "Penny Lane" and it is blatantly obvious where the lads were from. If others could not see that then it is not my problem. As to what John Lennon said, well, he also insisted they were bigger than Jesus and he got their name from a man stood on a flaming pie.

Up to you whether you believe everything he said of whether you believe I can detect the North country accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:18 PM

Regarding Penny Lane ( and I know it well, the actual street and the song) See my post at 01.47

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:21 PM

In my provincial S West town I can hear local white teenagers talking to each other in hat

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:22 PM

Modette, I know he is from Ulster, but what do you make of Paul Brady's accent(s)?
It seems to me that he has a very, very strong Irish accent when singing his Irish material but his accent becomes a lot more American - with Dylan overtones - when he does his rock stuff.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:24 PM

try again..

In my provincial S West town I can hear local white teenagers talking to each other in that fashionable Jamaican/USA rap street gang patois...

Now do they switch it on and off when meeting their mates or their granny...

Or is that it for real now.. is that their authentic 21st Century British accent...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:32 PM

You may well know Penny Lane intimately (lucky girl?) Tunesmith but 65 years of living in the North of England lets me recognise a northern accent when I hear one. And the Beatles had one. But you have still not given us examples of Plant and Marriot's American accents. Or why they were nothing but actors.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:36 PM

punkfolkrocker:
Now, that triggers a memory. Way back when, on some talent show, famous producer/writer Pete Waterman was one othe judge, and this young British chap comes out and performs a song in a West Indian type accent.
Pete went ballistic and asked the contestant what he was thinking about singing in such an accent.
Now, there are three things here.
a) Nearly every other performer sang in an American accent and Pete didn't say a word
b) West Indian accents are a definite part of UK culture/society.
c) West Indian accents have been used, successfully, by UK artists such as Sting and UB40.
What do you make of that?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:36 PM

Actually to be fair - Mariott was an actor...

A child actor playing cheeky cockney roles...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:39 PM

Look Dave, there have been millions of words written about "the Brits singing American phenomena". Don't you realise that?
And, if I were to choose your ears, or the ears of Peter Trudgill, I'm going with Trudgill!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 02:44 PM

Tunesmith - I obviously distinguish between indiginous Brits slipping into Jamaican accents
because it's inherrent in their local neighbourhood and family identity development...

It's authetically assimilated and absorbed into their being...

And prats like my mate back in our late 1970s college band
who would affect dreadfull fake 'rastaman' voices to sing the few popular ska songs in our set...

Our band emerged from youth theatre.. nobody minded about that sort of thing back then...

Sir Alec Guiness was still 'browning up' playing Indians in big budget movies...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 03:05 PM

Here's another thought.
When Cilla Black started recording with George Martin, he was forever pulling her up over her scouse accent, and telling her to get rid of the scouse sounds.
Now, he never did that with The Beatles.
Why? Because they didn't have those unpleasant- to George Martin's ears - scouse sounds in their voices when they sang.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 03:54 PM

If you listen to very early Beatles, for instance "Love Me Do", they most definitely come from Liverpool. Within a few records it was much less clear, and there was indeed an americanness about them but the time of, say, "I wanna hold your hand". Why? I think because they had realised that they really were going tobe able to sell a lot of records, and they could work out that the record buying public in America was much larger than in Liverpool, or indeed the whole of the UK.   

Now putting on a West Indian accent, that had rather different overtones. People of West Indian origin have suffered appalling racism in the UK, and therefore I think that Pete Waterman (whom I have very little time for on any subject, especially railways), was right to pull the contestant up. Maybe he should have pulled Sting up too, but thats another issue.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM

First of all. I was there. In Liverpool in the early 60s, and we used to pride ourselves on how American we could sound!
Now, I've heard "so called " experts suggesting that The Beatles "experimented" with using American accents. That is nonsense!
The Beatles simply opened their mouths and out it came. They would never have consciously tried to sing in American accents...that's just the way it came out.
   And, they would have never have considered singing in an English accent. It just wouldn't have occured to them. They were singing American covers, I think almost totally, until Epstein and talk of recording contracts came along.
Of course, in certain number...like McCartney's Little Richard numbers - we have a vocalist consciously trying to sound as American as possible!

Listen to that scouse accent...not!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 03:37 AM

I specifically said I could not spot a Scouse accent with the Beatles but it was obviously northern English. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant.

There are two examples that spring to mind of people obviously singing in their own accents. The Proclaimers and Kate Rusby. With most of the rest it is not so obvious but if you listen to how words are pronounced or inflected you can often discern an accent. Mostly I cannot tell what it is but when it is one I recognise, such as the North of England, it becomes even more apparent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 03:44 AM

...And I still have not found any examples of Plant or Marriot singing in an American accent (with the exception of afore said Raising Sand) or putting themselves forward as blues singers. I think you have a genuine complaint but it should not be with the singers but with the readership of the magazine.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 08:34 AM

I give up! I've already posted one Steve marrioyy vid ( 03 Oct 18 03.25) and he is clearly not singing in any sort of UK accent; indeed, he throws in one of those " you know what I'm talkin' about" blues clich comments. AND, he's pure US even when he's speaking!
Dave, why should Steve and Robert be different than nearly every other UK blues'rock artist who sang in an America accent?
Well, they weren't!

I don't know why you mentioned Kate Rusby because, surely, no British singer who specialises in UK/Irish folk music uses an American accent.

And quoting The Proclaimers is surely shooting yourselve in the foot because EVERYBODY mentions their Scottish singing voices but nobody mentions the Scottish accents of ANY Scottish pop/rock artist.
Go back and listen to Lulu from the 60s belting out "Shout" in her great Scottish accent...not!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 01:46 PM

Dave the Gnome,
   I just may have to apologise, somewhat, here!
I’ve spent some time today listening to Robert’s output and he is not too heavy at all on the American accent thing.
   One early performance interested me. When he sings “Babe I’m gonna leave you” he can’t help sounding American because of the “gonnas and the wannas” etc.
That raises a couple of language issues. I remember years ago, Cliff Richard was pulled up by some pop reporter for singing “Do you wanna dance” with the “wanna”, which Cliff wouldn’t usually say, and by pronouncing “dance” in an American way. ( Cliff’s is from the south of England where “dance” is pronounced “darnce”)
   Btw, Cliff defended his use of American pronunciations, saying that it scanned better.
   Interestingly, when Pat Boone, notoriously, covered Fats Domino’s “Ain’t That a Shame”, he, Pat, said he couldn’t sing “ain’t as, being an English major, he considered it bad English. He eventually changed his mind because he thought “ain’t" scanned better than “ isn’t " but I think he was wrong. I think “isn’t” allows more opportunity for shaping the sound.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 05:24 PM

innit a shame.. innit bruv...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 05:41 PM

Thank you, Tunesmith. Now, how about who your real gripe is with? Are you annoyed by someone singing in an American accent or by a readership of a minority magazine who think that Robert Plant is better than blind Willy Whasisname?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pete the american with a german great grandf
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 06:01 PM

Wow, isnt it cool how people’s voices and characters take from those they admire. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, yes? Honor those that came before you and be creative with what you have learned.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Allan Conn
Date: 07 Oct 18 - 06:55 PM

Lulu was seemingly pressurised by management, record lable etc to lose her Scottish accent even when speaking. As for The Proclaimers they of course specifically chose to sing in their speaking accents and were at first ridiculed a bit for it. Their first appearance on The Tube even had the presenter Paula Yates say "this is really weird"

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:55 PM

People's accents are shaped by where they live, they are not fixed in childhood. So of course Steve Marriott would have sounded a bit American.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:09 PM

Just listened to some Humble Pie on youtube, "For Your Love" for instance. It doesn't seem to be that Marriott on this was putting on any accent at all. Marriott was a great rock singer, blues is a bit more specific and a bit more American so I wouldn't call him a blues singer. But I don't detect anything false. Plant is a different case, he seems to be assuming the persona he thinks his audience would like. He is quite good at that, hence Raising Sand for instance.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 04:20 PM

It might seem surprising but Brits singing in American accents doesn’t really register with general population anymore.
    It’s not surprising though. The American accent has been the default accent for the majority of successful UK pop/rock singers since the 50s ( Did Billy Fury sound like he came from Liverpool?). Indeed, a New Zealand lingusitics professor put it another way. He said that an American accent is the “lingua franca” of international rock/pop sung in English.
Interestingly, we’ve never had a Australian/New Zealand pop/rock star who sounded like they came part of the world ( Apart from Uncle Rolf?)
    Take country music superstar Keith Urban. Just from listening to him, you would never know that he is from Australia.
    And, in the UK, so many pop/rock singers have got very strong regional accents when they speak, but that all goes away when they sing. Indeed, when Brit rock/pop is ocassionally sung with a distinct regional accent ( think The Proclaimers) in draws attention to itself in a big way. And, even seems “strange and bizarre” to some listeners.
   I never went in for much of the output from the Punk area, but at least many of the bands from back then did strive for an English vocal sound.
   BTW, the article by sociolinguist expert Peter Trudgill - that I mentioned in a previous post -is definitely worth looking up. Back in the mid/late 70s, he analysed a number of Brtish rock singers as to how much of their singing accent was American.
   Ian Drury came out as the most British of all the singers he studied.
    Of course, some singers do just a great impersonation, that it seems mean to complain. For example, I remember Stevie Winwood - at 15 - bursting on the scene singing like a teenage Ray Charles. In one way it was impressive but one could ask, “ If you want to express yourself, do it with your own voice and not somebody elses”.
    Interestingly, I would say that all the really great rock/blues/soul/jazz/country etc singers do sing with a voice that sounds like a musical extension of their day-to-day speaking voices.
      I’ll return to the 100 Greatest Blues Singers list shortly but, for now, think about this.
Do any of UKs rock and blues guitar stars play with a distinct British “accent”? Or, if your like, when they play, do they sound different, in a British sort of way, from great US rock guitarists?.
    For example, it has been said, in the rock press, that Dave Gilmour has a Celtic feel to his playing.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 04:25 PM

Not at all sure about that. How can a guitar have an accent?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:16 AM

Kylie certainly sounds Australian. Even though she has lived in Britain for a fair part of her life. Jimmy Barnes and Bon Scott sounded Scottish because they were. I am trying to think of Australian singers who sound American, John Farnham maybe?

Billy Fury didn't sound American. He didn't sound scouse, but then he wasn't really. His voice I would say is English, but without any particular regional imprint.

As for Ian Dury, I know of no British people who sound like his performance voice. He sounded like a music hall parody of a Londoner, because thats what he was trying to be.

Keith Urban is singing an American musical form. Also according to Wikipedia he has been living in America since 1991. Of course he will sound American.

I think that you have a strange view of the way people speak Tunesmith.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:31 AM

I had a listen to David Gilmour's 'Rattle that lock' after I posted last night to see if I could find any 'Celticness' in his guitar style. I couldn't. I think you are paying far too much heed to what the "rock press" are saying Tunesmith. Guitarists do have their own style but I think it is associated with them rather a nationality.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:07 AM

Oh dear, Dave!
There is not the slightest trace of Liverpool in Fury's voice and not the slightest trace of Australian in Kylie's voice.
Again, if their recordings were played on US radio, no American listeners would assume that they were anything but American.

Keith Urban? For God's sake, he sounded American BEFORE he left Australia.

Indeed, I've just been listening to most of the top Australian rock bands over the years, and I can't hear a trace of an Australian accent in any of their performances!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:16 AM

Don't get your Daves and Davids mixed up Tunesmith :-)

I think David actually said that Billy Fury did not sound scouse and I would concur with him that he did not sound American either. Well, not on 'Halfway to Paradise' which I have just listened to anyway.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:32 AM

Well, there is no such thing as "no accent"! So what accent is Billy singing in?
Well, is he trying to sing in a "posh" English accent? No!
But, if you listen to the original American recording by Tony Orlando you can pick up lots of places were Billy - in his cover version -is virtually copying Tony's pronunciation.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:52 AM

So what accent is Billy singing in?

Dunno. But it is neither Scouse not American. Maybe Mid-Atlantic in parts. Other bits have an English intonation. The words 'Gonna' and 'Wanna' are always going to sound American regardless of your accent. What does it matter anyway?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobike
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:11 AM

"Well, there is no such thing as "no accent"!"

But for the sake of clarity of pronunciation and communication,
It has long time been conventional for folks to tame the more problematic characteristics of their broad regional accents,
and adopt a 'neutral' accent...

An accent with emphasis placed on making words more easily understood across all regions...

The transatlantic accent being one common useful variant...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

More flat out impersonations that adopted accents but what about Tom Waits as Louis Armstrong or Capt. Beefheart (and many others) as Howlin' Wolf.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobile..not mobike
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:29 AM

A modern day equivalent i his Google Voice detection and spell chef making us all communicate like incoherent idiots dot dot dot

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:29 AM

Well, we're all agreed then, Billy was expressing himself, like so many Brits, in an accent that was far removed from his own.
But, this is not true of all (?) the great American singers.
Again, when you listen to Johnny Cash you are indeed hearing Johnny Cash.
But, when you hear Elton John you are hearing a voice " borrowed" from Jose Feliciano AND Jose had, himself, based his voice on American soul signings ( back in the 60s Jose spoke with a distinct Pueto Rican accent.)
This is the reason why I cam't accept many Uk singers as the Real Deal".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:39 AM

ID suggest predictive text is more of a force for evil than pop singers convinced it's cooler to sound American than whatever little British shithole they were born and bred in...????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:40 AM

Johnny Cash is a country singer. US country = UK Folk. When you hear Martin Carthy you are indeed hearing Martin Carthy.

How do you know that all the great American singers are singing in their own accents? US accents vary considerably. I have no idea what American accent most Americans sing in.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

How do you know what Billy Fury's accent was Tunesmith? Its not as if everyone in Liverpool sounds as if they come straight out of the Liver Birds. And I think he lived in Wirral more than in Liverpool. The Beatles sounded more scouse in early interviews, but I think thats because they wanted people to think of them as working class. In that sense I think Billy Fury was more real than Lennon and McCartney.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr still on mobile
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:58 AM

Right back to typing manually on tiny screen and keypad - sod voice dictation...

If we consider our pop stars from circa 60 years ago,
I would presume working class teenage singers eager to get on in life and escape their dreary provincial background would have mostly sold their souls to big London record labels and knuckled down to the star making process of an imposed new image make over...

Swapping their birth names for new cool manufactured pop star identities,
Hair and fashion styling,
and quite likely submitting to some form of election training.. ???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:08 AM

prf said:
   "ID suggest predictive text is more of a force for evil than pop singers convinced it's cooler to sound American than whatever little British shithole they were born and bred in...????"

Interestingly, lots of US singers think they also came from "shitholes". For example, Jerry lee Lewis is always badmouthing Ferriday, Lousiana.


It's only the Bris that think it is uncool to come from Birmingham, or where ever; indeed, even after The Beatles made Liverpool "cool" to the Americans, lots of Brits - including Mick Jagger, were saying that Liverpool was a dreadful place.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:30 AM

bastard predictive text "elocution" training...

Tunesmith - by this stage in the thread your list of contradictions and anomilies,
is just serving to demonstrate how complex and worthy of sociological study,
this whole issue of little island Brit popstar identity is...

..and let's not forget how impressed British kids were by GIs stationed here during the war..

To them everything the yanks had and did was glamoorous and way cooler than wartime rationing and austerity...

They were definitely cool role models to our kids who later went on to forge showbiz careers...

with dreams of themselves making it big enough to even become stars in America...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:32 AM

dave the Gnome said:
"When you hear Martin Carthy you are indeed hearing Martin Carthy"

I'm not so sure about that! If Martin hadn't discovered folk music, I bet he would sound very different when singing.

And, isn't it generally understood, that Martin "created" his voice by listening to old field recordings of actual folk singers?

And, of course, Nic Jones borrowing heavily from Martin when he "created" his voice.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:46 AM

You are just playing 'what if' now Tunesmith.

If Johnny Cash hadn't discovered country music, I bet he would sound very different when singing. :-)

Let's take this right down to what your gripe is here though. Is it that you disagree with the readership vote of the magazine you quoted in the OP? If so, point taken. I would agree with you on that. Neither Plant nor Marriot are, in my opinion, blues singers.

Or is it that you dislike any singers who so not sing in their 'own' accents? In which case you need to stop listening to them!

Or do you just not like British singers in general. In which case you have plenty of others that you can go at from across the pond and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:58 AM

Martin Carthy - this voice? MC singing

I may be alone in this but I don't think there is a voice I more dislike than the bizarre stilted accent that Martin Carthy employs. I just find it weird. Don't think I have ever met anyone in England who speaks like that. Actually Martin Carthy doesn't speak like that either. He just sings in that rather weird accent. Very odd.

Not American though.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:10 AM

Boris Johnson, half of Manchester, and about 10% of Surrey people who are Manchester United supporters, are still saying Liverpool is a dreadful place. And indeed it did go through a hard time in the 1980s. Not now though, it is a vibrant cosmopolitan city. When I walk through the streets of Liverpool I hear any number of accents.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:14 AM

Well, the difference bwtween Johnny's voice and Martin's is that Johnny was surrounded from birth by singess, in church, on the radio, at shows etc singing in, basically, a rural American accent.
On the otherhand, Martin Carthy did not grow up listening to "real" English folk singers. No, as an adult, he had to go searching for recordings of Joseph Taylor etc. as an inspiration for his " folkie" voice.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:17 AM

I've been a 'fan' of both The Small Faces and Billy Fury since I was a teenager bored with prog rock,
and needing something more immediate, emotional, and exciting...

They are just 2 of the many crucial 1960s artists that caught the attention of 'my generation'
of early to mid 1970s proto punk rockers...

I've just listened to a random sample of Humble Pie - alright, but not as good as the Small Faces;
and it's obvious Mariott is mimicing Soul and R&B histrionics...

He wouldn't have been the only singer in Europe doing that at that point in history...



Tunesmith - WE have already established we all think that Blues Greats list is naffly suspicious...

If anything, Mariott would be a more realistic contender for a similar Soul greats list,
then you could moan instead about him being included in that...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:38 AM

Now, here comes the paradox!

It's probably more "natural" for Brits to sing in a sort of American accent than in their own regional accent, particularly if they have immersed themselves for years in American music, but, unfortunately, it does make a lot of Brits - to my ears - sound "fake" when compared to our US music heroes.

BTW, I have another paradox - relating to my previous sentence -coming up shortly ( I think you'll find it thought provoking)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:55 AM

Tunesmith, many of do not use "our own regional accent", and maybe don't even know what it is. We use or at least attempt to use Received Pronunciation, known disparagingly as BBC English. Sources say that it accent of Southern England, but certainly not all of Southern England. My grandfather was from Somerset and he didn't speak like that, and as discussed above Ian Dury didn't speak or sing like that. Now it may be wrong, it may even be discrimination, but we have found that speaking like helps one to get on in life.

Now the BBC, tarred with the brush of enforcing uniformity, have gone completely the other way, and there are many presenters now on mainstream shows who speak in affected and pretty unintelligible regional accents. North East, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Wales, Scotland. They lay it on thick and I bet they don't speak like that when the cameras are off them.

The rest of us don't speak like that. It isn't American influence, it is in part the BBC, but we don't and why should we?

Billy Fury sang in a perfectly natural, very intelligible, neutral British accent. Good for him.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:03 AM

I'll tell you what I think is really shite and far more pernicious and patronising...

Upper middle class public school educated writers and actors
producing and performing scripts depicting working class stereotypes,
whatever regional accent they are in effect making a mockery of...

I loathe Radio 4 drama productions...!!!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:08 AM

..sorry.. got distracted from what I actually intended to write...

I've just been listening to a sample of Steve Marriot's solo work with his All Stars band...

What I do find amusing is not the accent,
but that through pokey little Echo Dot speakers in the bathroom and kitchen,
how much he sounds like a female singer...!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:59 AM

Saw Stevie Marriot and Humble Pie at the Glasgow Appollo back in the day. He even gobbed like an American.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:16 PM

I saw HP's first gig in America back in maybe '71-72. Couldn't discern any accents during the songs due to the tidal waves of sound coming from those Marshall stacks, PA's in those days were pretty scratchy (except, for one, the Dead's "Wall of Sound"). I do remember the bluesy, hendrixy, jazzy guitar playing of Frampton, though I was never a fan of his solo stuff.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:52 PM

Why am I sticking with this thread...???

Well... the search for 'our' pop stars singing in their own home accent...

it's just inspired me to listen to and enjoy Gerry amd The Pacemakers for the first time in 30 odd years
since I last ot their greatest hits LP out of storage..

next lined up - Freddie and the Dreamers...



Bloody handy, this online streaming in the bog...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:02 PM

I'm getting more and more confused, Tunesmith. Is JC's singing voice as it is because he came across country music or because he was surrounded by singers? I am losing track of what you are trying to tell us. I will say that my example was probably a bad one. How about I substitute Martin Carthy with Vin Garbutt or Jez Lowe or Jon Boden or... Well, you get the idea.

I must also say that my comments about Steve Marriot stem only for his time with the Small Faces. I did not follow his career after that.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:09 PM

Johnny Cash came from rural Arkansas in America. His dad was a farm worker. Johnny sings like somebody was who comes from a rural part of America.
He doesn't sing - or sound - like a lawyer from Boston!
I hope that has helped clarify things!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:11 PM

Now, here’s the mother of paradoxes on this subject.
Imagine, you are listening to the radio and a blues track comes on, and you are immediately held by the terrific singing. It almost sounds like a cross between B. B. King and Bobby Bland on their best day. You think to yourself, “ That’s got to be one of the greatest blues voices ever”.
    The track ends, and the DJ says, “ That’s a track off an album by a new band from Scotland, and, listen to this! The lead singer is only 19 yrs old and comes from Glasgow”.   
    “Scotland?”, you say to yourself, “ And, only 19! I’d would have swore that the singer was black, and from the States”.
    Now, knowing that the singer is from Scotland, and singing in an American accent, would you still rate the vocalist as, “one of the greatest blues voices ever”? Or simply dismiss the effort as being like the equivalent of a superior tribute band.
    In other words, can we make a true value judgement on any piece of art ( music, painting, literature ) without having all the information to hand about how - and by whom - the thing was created?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:18 PM

I don't know if tunesmith has completely formulated his thesis yet,
but it is too simplistic and unrealistic
to expect singers to pin their 'voice' and identity
to a single fixed place and moment in time...

Everybody evolves and changes throughout life, and their varying circumstances...

Except for a minority of regionalistic/nationalist singers who are so stubbornly proud of their specific birth roots,
that they will cling doggedly to their set regional identity until even after they drop dead...

..and yes, there is a commmercial market they can aim at making a living from...

ahem.. "Wurzels"... [but... yes.. that's right even a Scot can be a succsessful profesional Wurzel..]

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:18 PM

So what was the name of this 19 year old singer?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:20 PM

Tunesmith. If you liked the song, WTF does it matter where the singer is from, how old they are or what colour underpants they are wearing? No paradox at all. Like it or don't. Seemples.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:21 PM

Tom Jones... one of the World's finest voices ever..

and by most folks standards even one of the most authentic 'Black' voices...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:31 PM

punkfolkrocke said:
"Everybody evolves and changes throughout life, and their varying circumstances..."

Yes, from Beethoven to Dylan that is true, and, guess what, a million words have been written on the "evolving artist".

Where could we start? Dylan? Moved from doing covers of trad songs, to singing simply protest songs, to writing complex songs filled with so-called poetry" and so on...
But what's that to do with the price of fish in Fleetwood?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:36 PM

I might record myself singing the Blues and discover I now have a distinct Welsh accent...???

36 years have hearing the wife's sweet valleys tones nagging incessantly into my ear'oles, brain, and psyche...??????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:50 PM

I'd guess the 19yr old singer was this guy - Worried Man https://g.co/kgs/7589XB

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Brakn
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:54 PM

Comical.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 02:11 PM

As has already been stated in this thread many times, this is all just a matter of personal preference and nothing more.
Example: I much prefer Pierre Bensusan's version of the Irish song "The Town I Loved So Well" with his French/Algerian accent to the Dubliner's, others may not, big whoop.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 02:16 PM

gillymor,
But, wouldn't it have been better, if Pierre had used a phoney Irish accent?
For the record, I'm being ironic here!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 02:18 PM

I really like Petula Clarke singing "Ya Ya" in French...

Wouldn't life be so strict & boring if after Brexit
I was forced by overly proud Nationalist Govt
to relearn how to talk in my boyhood Scrumpyshire accent,
and was only allowed to listen to English artists resricted to singing in their own regional accents of birth...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:15 PM

I had no idea the British were so insecure

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:30 AM

Oh, I don't feel the slightest bit insecure, nor do any of the musicians I play with, as far as one can tell.

Tunesmith seems to have a massive bee buzzing around in his bonnet about a bit of nonsense in a magazine.

I don't give a toss about accents, to be honest. If I hear something that appeals to me, that's all that matters. For example, much as I love Richard Thompson, I prefer "When The Spell Is Broken" performed by Bonnie Raitt and the Blind Boys of Alabama to the original. So there.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:10 AM

Will, I don't see your point. Surely, anyone with ears would prefer to hear Bonnie sing a song rather than Richard.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:17 AM

Errr. no Tunesmith. Bonnie Tyler, then you might be talking.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:25 AM

Now, you're trying to wind me up!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM

Richard Thompson does the best version of Vincent Black Lightning 1952. It is not always about quality of voice but about how the song is performed. If it was always about quality of voice Bob Dylan would be a pauper :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:12 AM

Ah, but you haven't heard Bonnie sing it! Have you!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:39 AM

I would if I could but I can't so I shan't :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:59 AM

Once again, Tunesmith, it's all a question of personal taste. I really like Richard Thompson's songs, and his voice - both of which I think are unique. Not to mention his guitar playing. I'm aware that many people don't care for Richard's voice, but I always have done. I've seen him live on several occasions and have always come away with huge enjoyment.

Having said that, I do prefer Bonnie Raitt's version of that particular song, and I quite like REM's version of "Wall Of Death", thought not quite as much as RTs.

Each to his/her own.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:12 AM

Again, I hear Richard as somebody who "created" his voice. I think he probably didn't have much confidence in his voice in Fairports what with Sandy and the very competent Ian Matthews being in the group.
But, I love Richard. He's such a brilliant and entertaining songwriter...and a cool chap, to boot.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:37 AM

And once again I ask. If you like him as a "brilliant and entertaining songwriter...and a cool chap, to boot", what does it matter how he came across his voice? Over analysing can ruin the enjoyment.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:28 AM

It's nothing to do with analysis ( well, certainly not on a conscious level) but rather a gut reaction!
If I had said that I found his lyrics pretentious - which, I don't - would that be as the result of "over analysing" or, again, just a gut reaction to what I hear.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:41 AM

Only if you said you liked them and then said you found them pretentious. I am a simple little soul. I either like something or I don't. If I do like it, I do not feel the need to have a 'but' there. If I don't like it, I am not one to try and justify that. There are occasions when I change my mind and that is often the result of listening or looking from a different point of view but there is far too much music in the world and far too little time to ponder on why I like something or not. :-)

BTW - I like a lot of Glam Rock and find many Prog Rock songs pretentious. I am probably shallow as well as short :-D

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 12:07 PM

Yes Tunesmith, of course I am, but then I think that some of your statements are designed to wind people up also.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:00 PM

Well, I think there are songs for all occasions. For example, "The Monkees" singing "Daydream Believer" always makes me smile, and, interestingly, the Davy Jones vocal does, most definitely, sound English.
Well done to him, but there again he is/was an actor, and he is, in the TV series acting out the role of a English pop singer.

BTW, below is a link to a Youtube video where John Stewart talks about the creation of the song and "the one word change" to the lyric that The Monkees insisted upon.

Daydream Believer John Stewart

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:17 PM

Welll.. the 1960s British Invasion...


How many yank singers suddenly discovered their inner scouser...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:58 PM

Yes, of course, I have heard that there are a number of US bands who have adopted an English accent. Names?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:13 PM

So people are singing in different accents from the ones that they were born with, are they? I'm not sure that this would have met with the approval of Ewan M......

.... On second thoughts, I have decided not to go down that particular road!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:50 PM

Davy Jones was English. He was from Manchester. Should he have sung in a Manchester accent? What is such an accent anyway? One you hear on Coronation Street? Davy Jones did in fact begin his career in Coronation Street.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:26 AM

People aren't born with accents. They acquire them from the environment in which the live, and as they move around these accents evolve.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

Vic,

Please don't.

I looked at the original posting thinking that it might become a sensible possibly interesting discussion on Blues / Blues singers.

However it very soon sank into pop music and became very silly.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:10 AM

Hoot wrote:-
"Vic, Please don't!"
No, Hoot, you have got me wrong. When I wrote "the approval of Ewan M......", I was meaning to finish it by writing Ewan Mee, and what I was trying to write was You and me but, as you probably know, strange typos can sometimes happen!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:55 AM

Dave Carter wrote:
"Davy Jones was English. He was from Manchester. Should he have sung in a Manchester accent? What is such an accent anyway? One you hear on Coronation Street? Davy Jones did in fact begin his career in Coronation Street."

A little know fact. Davy was Ena Sharles grandson. and I'm pretty sure I can detect traces of Ena's accent in Davy's delivery of "Daydream Believer".

But, being serious, Davy was, first and foremost, an actor, and in The Monkees he's playing the part of a Englishman in an American pop band and so the accent he used was probably created - to a large extent - for the part.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

I think the desire to make snotty unkind comments about artists who have given pleasure to millions gives an insight into basically an unkind snotty personality whose opinion we don't really need to hear.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:22 AM

Tunesmith, given your problems with Plant and Marriott, who were, and in Plant's case still are, great rock singers, and never claimed to be blues singers whatever some magazine says, I wonder what you make of Hugh Laurie?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:43 AM

David Carter (UK) - we already did Hugh Laurie in this thread several days ago...

..and I must say, so far..
Poshboy Laurie [what a Blues singer name...]
is the only thing Tunesmith and me wholeheartedly agree about...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:58 AM

I have already mentioned Hugh Laurie.
My problem with Hugh is that if he wants to put on the American blues voice he really should make it clear that he is acting out the role of an old jazz/blues singer.
Maybe, he should have created a persona, and called himsef "Professor House", or something, but going out as Hugh Laurie and singing, like he does. is comfortable to watch.

As I have said, I really would like to see/hear a whole generation of UK pop/singers who perform in a clearly recognisable British accents.
It was understandable that, in the early days of rock, UK singers would really be heavily influenced by the accent of Elvis and so on, but, as the years ticked by, I wish British rock had found it's own voice rather than continue to sing in a mock US accents.

There have bben lots of discussion on the web about this subject, and some of the things said show how our ears deceive us.
For example, I've seen people producing lists of UK singers who sing with an American accent, and also lists of singers who don't and sound British, But, amazingly, the same names appear on both lists. Oasis is one that comes to mind.
    As to Plant and Marriott, they tend to sing "over the top" at times and I prefer a more "controlled" singer like Paul Rodgers who call sing in an intense way, but without the histrionics.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM

Tuinesmith - If I recall you have acknowledged an awareness
that my genration of 1970s teenage 'punk rockers'
did make a concious effort to sing in our own regional Brit accents...

All part of the package of youth rebellion against music biz norms and conventions...

...and, inmho, further evidence of punk rock's close links with folk music at that point in history...

A shared pride in our own identity.. and an expression of boredom with American Cultural imperialism...

Yes.. late 1970s teens could be members of rock against racism & the anti n@zi league,
AND still have pride in being British...

Totally at odds with the NF Skinhead ultra nationalists
us 'aware & politicised' kids back then were in direct conflict with.....

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:40 AM

I think the late John Peel got it right on this one.

'People say - you think Jagger and Eric Clapton are great...you should hear Muddy Waters sing and BB King play. Well I HAVE heard them and I prefer Jagger and Clapton.'

So do millions and millions of other people of all colours and creeds. If you don't get why, and feel you need reasons - that's your problem.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:04 AM

Well, if John Peel said than he's an idiot, and it reveals how much he was influenced by image!
I can understand teenage girls prefering Claton and Jagger to Muddy and B.B.King but Peel - who clearly wasn't a musician -should be dug up and made to apologise.
Jagger is a terrible singer; indeed, I would say that he is the worst singer, ever, in a major rock band, and Clapton created his voice by mainly spending hours listening to the likes of Otis Rush.
Again, Jagger and Clapton are playing at being bluesmen while B.B. and Muddy are the real deal.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:17 AM

I love just about everything BB has done, that I've heard.

I like a lot of Clapton, singing and playing, mostly up through Derek and the Dominoes.

Don't care much for Jagger's singing but love the Stones,not much of the later stuff, though.

Never cared for Muddy Waters and his macho posturing though I like some of his songs, especially when covered by others.

Once again, it all comes down to personal preferences the rest is just...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:39 AM

Well, there is no doubt that the older bluesmen picked up on the white players - and Hendrix, of course, use of increased volume which in turn produced a richer tone ( and the white guys, and Hendrix, introduced effects pedals).
Of course, Buddy Guy says that he was the first player to really go in for very loud playing and distortion but, only live, because his record companies didn't think that Buddy's live sound would appeal to record buyers.
And, of course, the subject matter of white blues influenced bands appealed to a younger audience. They could identify with Satisfaction more readily than a Muddy Waters' song.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:42 AM

As you finally have got back to blues singers may I suggest that Eric Clapton may have been more influenced by Buddy Guy than Otis Rush. For several years Eric brought Buddy over to appear with him at his regular Royal Albert Hall concert seasons in London.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

I've just been listening to Muddy Waters on Prime streaming
while I was in the kitchen...

Same as most old Blues artists - a mix of a few tracks that stand out and 'grab' me...
and mediocre run of the mill stuff that loses my attention...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:01 PM

Of course, it's impossible for us to hear Muddy's stuff, now, as it would have sounded at the time.

Which is true of any "old music".
For example, today, on Youtube, I was watching a kid play part of Beethoven's Waldstein Piano Sonata, and I thought, " That still sounds great but my God, it must have sounded like something from another universe 200plus years ago".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:03 PM

..and...

Now I think about it, the last time I enjoyed a gig performance by a white English Blues artist
was sometime 5 - 10 to years ago at Burnham on Sea free Folk Fest..[RIP]

Keith Christmas - but I can't remember what accent he sang in...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:15 PM

Ah, Keith Christmas. I once saw him ( 1971?) in the crypt of St Martin in the Field, Trafalgar Square. I remember, in those days, he used to tape his finger picks on ( I guess, previuosly, he must had picks flying off into the audience).
I think Keith used to really attack the guitar.
A friend of mine saw Keith, recently, in a gig in North Wales (?) .

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:40 PM

The first time I heard Otis Rush in the early 70's I thought, ah ha! That's where Clapton's coming from. Vocally anyway, I think they both had a heavy BB influence early on.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:42 PM

Some of us did see Muddy Waters in performsnce a number of times. I agree that it is impossble to hear dead people live but Muddy has left behind a rich legacy of recorded material. Whether or not you like it is as with everything else in life a matter of personal taste.
Making lists of best or worst is a pure waste of time.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:07 AM

I can understand teenage girls prefering Claton and Jagger to Muddy and B.B.King

I prefer Clapton and Jagger and I am no teenage girl. It is all a matter of personal tastes. If you believe yours are better than than others that is your problem. I am not all that fond of old American blues and think it is vastly overrated but I would never dream of describing those that do like it as idiots.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:48 AM

I prefer Howlin Wolf to Muddy Waters, the two great rivals of course. Clapton and B B King have a lot in common, both great guitarists, both ordinary singers. Jagger is nothing like any of these, he is a stage actor on a music stage.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM

Nothing wrong with that, David, bearing in mind that the performance of a song is sometimes as important as the song itself. I have seen top notch musicians who are wonderful to listen to at home but have bored me rigid with their live performances. Conversely, I have seen very ordinary performers who set the room on fire with their stage presence. Once again, all a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:01 AM

Ultimate of course was Arthur Brown. Probably still is, I think he is still performing.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:17 AM

Of course it would be nice to have the best of both :-) Freddie Mercury?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 07:22 AM

If only Marc Bolan was still around...

71 years old.. Sir Marc Bolan.. one time Glam Rock idol.. now fully matured respected senior British Blues & Folk master...

The aged growling voice of authentic London Glitter Blues...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:27 AM

Yes the only problem is that theres very little toleration for the culture of a small island community like the English. Including the music of master musicians like Bolan. Keith Richards, and Clapton.

The music which we used to dance to joyously as family occasions like weddings, or played a part in our courting rituals are drowned out by the insistent and monotonous beat of jigs and reels.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:35 AM

Al, :-D

Trouble is, according to the premise of the OP, they are better than singing in an American accent. I hope he doesn't include St Peter and John Dillenger or Down and Out Blues in his hitlist :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:58 AM

I think life's too short to bandy words with the likes of the OP.

Ignorance of that order is a delicate flower, touch it with enlightenment and its gone forever.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: StephenH
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:51 PM

I know its just one person's opinion but I can't let the comment pass.
B.B. King an "ordinary singer"? - you have got to be joking!
Rather, one of the best in blues, IMHO.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 02:06 PM

Very little vocal range, BB King, certainly compared with the Wolf. His vocals are really a framework to hand his excellent guitar playing on.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 02:06 PM

hand -> hang

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: StephenH
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:04 PM

Well, I don't want to hijack this thread, so last word from me.
I'm posting this link to one of my favourite B.B. King songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1vJos6rI_s

Now , I don't do this meaning to suggest that you've never listened to
B.B. King, or insult your opinion in any manner, but just to back up my statement.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:22 PM

Riley B. King started out in blues and gospel, and, he has freely admitted,
went where the money was. King has spoken explicitly about this.
He has also confessed that gospel remained near to his heart,
even if he didn't sing it any longer.
Moreover, King had musical ambition, however diplomatic he was about presenting it;
he always longed to record music that was more like jazz than like blues,
which meant educating himself as a musician
with a training that was unavailable to him when he was very young.

The man known as Howlin' Wolf was equally aware of a bigger world of music,
whatever his performances and recordings limit themselves to.
For confirmation, one need only pay attention to statements
from Hubert Sumlin,
whom the Wolf insisted should get more education, somewhere,
on playing the guitar.

These two singers/songwriters had two different approaches to singing,
and it does not surprise me to hear
that a listener who looks up to one, belittles the other.
That's kind of an emotional reaction,
and what is more appropriate to listening to music, than emotion?
So that form of discrimination has its place.

If King did not hit the peaks or the depths of
the emotion in Howlin' Wolf's singing,
King's ambition and appetite for music took him to
a breadth of repertoire and style outside of the Wolf's territory.
Many is the music journalist,
reviewing whatever was King's latest vocal recording of the day
(until he got THAT old and his voice simply wore out and got wobbly) ,
who wrote (and published) in astonishment,
why, King really knows how to sell a lyrical ballad! In surprise.

Is the blues like flamenco, the purview of the aficionado, the fanatic?
In some circles it is, and very emotional are the opinions from such.
Again, that's their prerogative.

King, however, has been compared to Louis Armstrong,
NOT for the way he sings,
but for the trails he blazed and the ambassadorship he maintained
in taking his kinds of music
to people who had never before listened to it with respect.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:27 PM

Stephen H on BB: Rather one of the best in blues,IMHO.

Second that.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM

I think thats a fair summary Keberoxu, and ultimately as with many issues in this thread it comes down to personal taste.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:13 PM

"Riley B. King started out in blues and gospel, and, he has freely admitted,went where the money was."

Well that is unusual for somebody hoping to make a living in music. Going where the money is.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 02:17 AM

I first heard B B sometime in the 60s. I was in a record shop. when I heard somebody call my name. It was a friend of mine leaning out of one of those listening booths. "Come over he and listen to this", he said, and continued, " This is a guitar player called B B King, who has been a huge influence on Eric Clapton".
Well, I listened. But I don't think I heard the guitar because the voice just blew me away, and I knew I was listening to one of the greatest singers that I'd ever heard.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 01:42 PM

Keberoxu, that poetry _was_ poetry.