You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 02:12 PM

Exactly Modette. I have heard neither sing in what may be termed an American accent. Apart from Plant's "Raising Sand". Where he does sing with Alison Krauss! Understandably a country sound :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:57 PM

Blimey, Tunesmith, you don't know much about the not exactly Cockney but not exactly Essex accent which was Steve's natural singing voice. He's not trying to put on any kind of accent in that song.

In your view did Rory Gallagher sing with a foreign accent? As the Crow Flies

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:33 PM

I find the phoney "Oirish" accents you hear more annoying. Still don't understand either how Plant and Marriot are voted in as blues singers or why anyone would suggest they were nothing but actors. I guess I never will.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:17 PM

If a singer respects a song, and sings it with love and conviction..

Then I suggest the accent, natural or adopted, is incidental
unless it is so grossly false and exagerated
as to detract from the performance...?????

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

Without sounding sanctimonious I'd add : some things are sacred to people and that Li'l squirrely dude singin' da blues is like casting Harrison Ford to play a concentration camp internee.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

Answer this: If you played Steve's "Black Coffe" to somebody who didn't know Steve, and asked them to say where they thought the singer came from, are they likely to say A) London, or B) Somewhere in the States?

But, when I hear Hank Williams - or Muddy Waters - I'm hearing somebody who is clearly from the USA, and I would still think that if old Hank - or Muddy - was to sing " I sowed the seeds of love".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:37 PM

gillymor - BANG.. nail on the 'ead... sorted.. end of...


Sorry mates, I'm a west country boy trying to type in a BBC Eastenders mockney accent...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM

This is my absolute favourite Steve Marriott vocal. His voice was his own.

Black Coffee

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:30 PM

Whether or not a singer comes from the east end of London, Indianola, MS. or Timbuktu is of no concern to me, if I like what I'm hearing that's all that matters. I like hearing Jack Bruce sing "Born Under a Bad Sign" just as much as hearing Albert King do it, and I love Albert King.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:28 PM

oops.. accidently posted before editing and completing.. but it'll do...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:26 PM

A] yeah.. for a laugh.. "Hank Sings the English Country Garden Hits of Joyce Grenfell" LP...

B] obviously this is the correct answer..

but, interestingly, back in the 1990s, English Band "The The" performed a tribute CD of Hank's songs "Hanky Panky" 1995...

I Saw the Light


Can't say I really detect any accent.. but it is oddly reminiscent of White Album era Beatles...???


There's A Tear In My Beer

" Matt Johnson was one of four brothers growing up in East London. Much of his youth was spent in or around ‘The Two Puddings’, a London pub run by his family over the course of 40 years"


If he wass trying to put on a yank accent, perhaps he's not making a good job of it...???

Anyway, that's just 2 tracks off one of my favourite 1990s CDs...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:08 PM

Imagine, Hank Williams singing English folk songs; now, would you
A) Like to hear him singing them in a fake Engilsh accent or
B). Hear Hank singing the songs in his own voice.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM

I have paused for a moment to amuse myself.. imagining Adge Cutler and The Wurzels singing
"Good Morning Little Schoolgirl"...

Nowaday's they'd get lynched on twitter...

But back in the old day's out in the farming villages...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:21 AM

...same goes for Van Morrison singing "Baby Please Don't Go" with Them, which is still kickass rendition.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:19 AM

Tunesmith - whatever our disagreement on Plant & Mariott..

I whole heartedly agree with your views on Laurie..

He is very high on my shitlist of performers I can't stand..

Him and Jools Holland, hmmm.. hard to think who is the worst...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM

I remember when I first heard Winwood sing "Gimme Some Lovin'" and "I'm a Man" with Spencer Davis long ago and it knocked me over the moon. I don't think those gritty numbers would had the same impact if the singer sounded like Wilfred Hyde-White or George Sanders.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM

What I want - and so should everybody - is Brits singing in British accents. That would lend so much more character - and authencity -to their performances.
   Again, a singer cannot be the "real deal" if the they hide behind a fake accent.
For example, when you hear Adele singing " Rolling in the Deep". You are not hearing the voice of a working-class woman from London, England but, rather, you are hearing a persona created by a woman from London.
   Big difference.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 11:06 AM

Well, of course, Steve in particular, would wear his "cockney hat" and his "pseudo-America" singing hat depending on what he was singing.
   But, it would have been marvelous if he had kept his English voice for everything. That would have been great!
   In a way, it's weird how this "Brits Sing American" phenomena has become acceptable to the masses.
   The Brits - as a whole don't mind, and the same with the Americans.
   Interestingly, in pre-rock days, the BBC radio would not air dance bands if their singers had an American twang!
   And, of course, famously, back in 1964, John Lennon was asked, by an American reporter, why The Beatles sang in an American accent, to which he replied, "Because it sells better".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:51 AM

DtG - Tunesmith is right from the start onto an obvious loser with his gripes about Plant & Mariott..

But he does raise some interesting issues about identity politics pertaining to 'our' kind of music...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:47 AM

"I Saw the Light" [2015]

Trailer


Old etonian Tom Hiddleston plays Hank Williams

"Hiddleston will sing his own music for the film, also taking on Williams' southern accent.
To prepare for the film and work on his singing and guitar playing, Hiddleston practiced with country singer Rodney Crowell.
In July 2014, Crowell signed on to be the executive music producer for the film..
..Crowell said of Hiddleston, "After nearly a month spent collaborating with this gifted artist,
I'm as respectful of the man's work ethic as I'm mystified by his transformational skills.
Without a doubt, the filmmakers chose the right actor for the job.""

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:45 AM

Out of interest can you point as at where there is a hint of an American accent in Immigrant Song or Rock and Roll or Stairway to Heaven or Itchycoo Park or The Universal or Lazy Sunday or...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:39 AM

I am sure you are right, Tunesmith, and I agree that anyone trying to sound like anyone else can be silly unless they have the talents of Mike Yarwood or Alistair McGowan. However, it is my opinion that neither Plant nor Marriot were trying to impersonate anyone. They had no need. The fact that some people in a minority magazine readership believed that they sounded like blues singer is not the responsibilty of the artists. They were not acting. They were being themselves.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 10:26 AM

Well, actors are acting!
And, interestingly, Hugh Laurie is just about the worst example - and perfect example - of Brits "singing American".
Hugh got great praise, from Americans, for his authentic sounding American accent in the "House" Tv series BUT when he sings the blues, rather than singing in his own voice, he adopts this dreadful American voice.
Now, this is the perfect example of a singer "acting" at singing the blues.
Now, had he adopted a character - called himself "Professor House", or something - and made it clear that he was acting out the role of a old-time blues singer, that would have been acceptable.
But as it is, he is the worst example of a charicature performance and I want to laugh out loud everytime I hear him.
But, my view will carry the day! There will come a time when Brits "singing American" will be viewed as silly, in bad taste, and just plain embarassing.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 09:35 AM

ps.. as the yank accent is reportedly derived from Ye Olde English Scrumpyshire accent..

I feel justified enough to try and put on a wurzel accent to sing the blues..

Call me "Blind Cider-apple Pfr"...

[an apt Blues name considering the legendary toxic effects on the eyesight of dedicated cider wallopers...]

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobile phone
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:59 AM

Tunesmith - so on the subject of Brits acting as yanks...
What about the swarm of our actors
emigrating to Hollywood to play American movie characters..

How do you feel about that then...???

Recently some of our best black Brit actors are winning awards in a limited few prestigious roles the yanks could accuse them of stealing from real American black actors...???

Personally I have doubts about a very posh English ex public school boy playing Hank Williams in the recent bio pic.
But I'll reserve judgement until I actually watch it...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:40 AM

So, Tunesmith, are you still saying that all Robert Plant and Steve Marriot can do is act? If so, I think our ideas of what is music will never agree. In my opinion, while they are not blues singers and as far as I know have never pretended to be, I enjoy their music far more than that of many of the old bluesmen from across the pond.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 08:28 AM

What about all the great R&B and R&B-influenced singers from over there like Van Morrison, Steve Winwood, Joss Stone, Tom Jones, Adele, the late Amy Winehouse, Joe Cocker, Imelda May etc. with non-American accents, should they throw down the mic because they don't talk like say Ray Charles, Mavis Staples or Jackie Wilson?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmth
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

Oh dear, so many of you are missing the point OR, as I have mentioned already, falling in to the " suspension of disbelief" syndrome.
If, in the UK, a fellow worker, a Brit, walked in to work one day and started taking in an American accent, and carried on forever, I'm sure you would find that, at the least, rather bizarre BUT if the majority of UK/Irish singers perform in a pseudo-American accents that doesn't raise an eyebrow. Very strange.

AND, talking about missing the point, what is Brakn getting at when he writes the following:
    "Oh dear, I feel a bit limited now! I'll have to search for songs done in an Altrincham accent"
Please explain what the above means...in the context of Brits singing the blues in a phoney American accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:53 AM

Robert Plant and Steve Marriott are merely acting out the roles of American blues singers. That's all they can do. Act!

Nonsense. They are both excellent singers in their own right and have no need to pretend to be anything else. I doubt if either of them would describe themselves as great blues singers but the former is a world leader in rock music and the latter in pop.

It is not their fault that a magazine or its readership have granted them that accolade is it so why be hostile towards them?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Brakn
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 05:42 AM

Oh dear, I feel a bit limited now! I'll have to search for songs done in an Altrincham accent.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Sonny Walkman
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:12 AM

Interesting thread but many people don't seem to get that it was just the opinion of one magazine and developed it into a 'can blue men sing the whites' debate.

It also strikes me that any discussion about singing in false accents should include something about traditional singers. I've spent countless hours in folk clubs listening to people trying to sound like agricultural workers from 200 years ago - they certainly weren't singing in their own voices/accents. You could site Peter Bellamy as an example - don't get me wrong, I loved listening to Peter but if that wasn't a 'false' accent then I've never heard one. Pretty fair blues singer/guitarist too.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 04:01 AM

The word 'blues', like the word 'folk', is open to interpretation.

To some - let's say the purists - blues singers represent a downtrodden and repressed segment of American society, and their music is more than music. It has social and racial significance beyond the music which cannot be, by its very nature, be sung authentically by people other than black Americans.

To others, 'blues' is simply another muical style or formula, open to anyone to try their hand (or voice) at, like jazz or opera or rock'n roll. In this sense, a singer's origins are irrelevant, the performance being more important.

As to 'good' and 'bad', or 'best' and 'worst' - it's a matter of individual opinion in the end, as all opinions are individual and subjective.

For myself, I used to enjoy American blues singers when I was in my teens and into my 30s, until other music began to interest me - so I have no opinion either way.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 05 Oct 18 - 12:03 AM

It maybe be hard to understand to you, Bonzo3legs, but it's kind of telling it like it is, without saying too much, to clear, to keep your neck from getting stretched. I've wondered if Cockney rhyming slang, (at one time), may have been used for the same purpose; communication under the nose have hostile authority, (getting over). Isn't much literature and poetry disguised?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 05:52 PM

Blood awful??? Bloody awful!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 03:24 PM

And quite honestly, most of those toothless USAian blues singers were blood awful!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 03:21 PM

Lock a white guy [the saying goes] in a in a room full of, errrmm, black fellows, and in a week he'll come out 'talkin' like one'.

Thomas Merton wrote once : he heard a group of black collage students in a library talking away like they were white students. I can't remember exactly how Br. Thomas put it, but it basically amounted : SMH.

So, why is it when Blacks talk like Whites they're Uncle Toms, but when Whites sing like Blacks they're Rock Stars. Oh and by the way those back-up singers (for the dude singing Black Coffee) expressions weren't ones of admiration I'd say more like they may have thought, someone needs to bitch-slap that boy, IMHO.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:50 PM

btw.. that Humble Pie performance from 1973 is Mariott still in peak condition and voice...

enjoyed that...

Reminds me I had some Humble Pie CDs to investigate years ago, but never got round to listening to them..
Could be in any storage box by now...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:25 PM

Or 'worst blues singer in a bad airplane'

There has to be a blues song in there somewhere

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:13 PM

How far could we mudcatters get with a list of the 'worst blues singers of all time'...???

Well, modify that with the addition of "and most phoney" and the Top 20 names will all be from the UK/Ireland.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:06 PM

right then... the 100 greatest war planes of all time...

Will there be agreement, friendly consensus on the top 10...???

disputes over what constitutes a war plane...

Such a list might have more objectivity than blues singers,
but probably not much when the disagreements start...

Earlier this week, there was a question in Quora..
"What were the worst WW11 fighter planes..?"
that attracted vey authoritative and informative replies...
At least they had records of accident and crash statistics

How far could we mudcatters get with a list of the 'worst blues singers of all time'...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 02:00 PM

The Rolls Royce Merlin engine saved the Mustang from the ash heap of history (that and a big blower).

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:50 PM

"create a persona" House didn't?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:48 PM

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that the American blues singers had a good 5-8 hours time advantage due to being west of the UK which is just not fair.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Nick
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:45 PM

Things change and also change with location and social interaction.

I say 'pass' rhyming with 'lass' now rather than 'pass' rhyming with 'arse' both in speech and if/when I sing. So my origins have been modified.

I think it is almost unavoidable. A friend would start speaking like whoever he was with which would occasionally get him into trouble as people thought he was taking the piss (he wasn't - it's just what he did).

If the dominant music is American then it is little surprise that it affects people - even at open mic or singaround level - and strongly influences them. Whether consciously or not.

My dad flew a Hurricane among other planes in the war (quite partial to Mustangs too). The Spitfire had a better PR team

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:41 PM

Imagine how horrified I'd be if our Great British World War II war planes started sounding like they had american engines...!!!???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:38 PM

Remember old black blues singers usually done sang wid no teeth, whereas British blues singers woke up one morning and checked their knob's still there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:37 PM

My absolute favourite was the Short Sunderland - that Airfix kit was epic...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:29 PM

It's great to see the oft-overlooked Hawker Hurricane getting a nod.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:16 PM

"NOW, imagine how I feel - as a Brit - when the likes of Marriott and Plant, and Elton John, and Adele, and Annie Lennox, and Dusty Springfield and the majority of UK/Irish pop/rock singers choose to sing in a foreign accent from a country thousands of miles away!"


phew... well at least they are not all singing in German accents...

Hat's off to the glorious few who flew Hurricanes and Spitfires...!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:10 PM

Well, that opens up a whole new bag of tricks. If Bruce doesn't sing like he comes from New Jersey, where would YOU place him from just listening to his voice?
Also, can you point to a US singer who, definitely, sounds like they come from a particular area.
   For example, how often, when hearing a track on the radio, could an American listener identify the geographical source of the singer's voice.
   Interestingly, a while back on this site, an American was complaining that, annoyingly, Reba McIntyre was guilty of "laying on" the country twang in her voice.
   So that person was critising Reba forsimply exaggerating their own accent.
NOW, imagine how I feel - as a Brit - when the likes of Marriott and Plant, and Elton John, and Adele, and Annie Lennox, and Dusty Springfield and the majority of UK/Irish pop/rock singers choose to sing in a foreign accent from a country thousands of miles away!