You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:26 AM

People aren't born with accents. They acquire them from the environment in which the live, and as they move around these accents evolve.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

Vic,

Please don't.

I looked at the original posting thinking that it might become a sensible possibly interesting discussion on Blues / Blues singers.

However it very soon sank into pop music and became very silly.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:10 AM

Hoot wrote:-
"Vic, Please don't!"
No, Hoot, you have got me wrong. When I wrote "the approval of Ewan M......", I was meaning to finish it by writing Ewan Mee, and what I was trying to write was You and me but, as you probably know, strange typos can sometimes happen!

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:55 AM

Dave Carter wrote:
"Davy Jones was English. He was from Manchester. Should he have sung in a Manchester accent? What is such an accent anyway? One you hear on Coronation Street? Davy Jones did in fact begin his career in Coronation Street."

A little know fact. Davy was Ena Sharles grandson. and I'm pretty sure I can detect traces of Ena's accent in Davy's delivery of "Daydream Believer".

But, being serious, Davy was, first and foremost, an actor, and in The Monkees he's playing the part of a Englishman in an American pop band and so the accent he used was probably created - to a large extent - for the part.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

I think the desire to make snotty unkind comments about artists who have given pleasure to millions gives an insight into basically an unkind snotty personality whose opinion we don't really need to hear.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:22 AM

Tunesmith, given your problems with Plant and Marriott, who were, and in Plant's case still are, great rock singers, and never claimed to be blues singers whatever some magazine says, I wonder what you make of Hugh Laurie?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:43 AM

David Carter (UK) - we already did Hugh Laurie in this thread several days ago...

..and I must say, so far..
Poshboy Laurie [what a Blues singer name...]
is the only thing Tunesmith and me wholeheartedly agree about...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:58 AM

I have already mentioned Hugh Laurie.
My problem with Hugh is that if he wants to put on the American blues voice he really should make it clear that he is acting out the role of an old jazz/blues singer.
Maybe, he should have created a persona, and called himsef "Professor House", or something, but going out as Hugh Laurie and singing, like he does. is comfortable to watch.

As I have said, I really would like to see/hear a whole generation of UK pop/singers who perform in a clearly recognisable British accents.
It was understandable that, in the early days of rock, UK singers would really be heavily influenced by the accent of Elvis and so on, but, as the years ticked by, I wish British rock had found it's own voice rather than continue to sing in a mock US accents.

There have bben lots of discussion on the web about this subject, and some of the things said show how our ears deceive us.
For example, I've seen people producing lists of UK singers who sing with an American accent, and also lists of singers who don't and sound British, But, amazingly, the same names appear on both lists. Oasis is one that comes to mind.
    As to Plant and Marriott, they tend to sing "over the top" at times and I prefer a more "controlled" singer like Paul Rodgers who call sing in an intense way, but without the histrionics.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM

Tuinesmith - If I recall you have acknowledged an awareness
that my genration of 1970s teenage 'punk rockers'
did make a concious effort to sing in our own regional Brit accents...

All part of the package of youth rebellion against music biz norms and conventions...

...and, inmho, further evidence of punk rock's close links with folk music at that point in history...

A shared pride in our own identity.. and an expression of boredom with American Cultural imperialism...

Yes.. late 1970s teens could be members of rock against racism & the anti n@zi league,
AND still have pride in being British...

Totally at odds with the NF Skinhead ultra nationalists
us 'aware & politicised' kids back then were in direct conflict with.....

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:40 AM

I think the late John Peel got it right on this one.

'People say - you think Jagger and Eric Clapton are great...you should hear Muddy Waters sing and BB King play. Well I HAVE heard them and I prefer Jagger and Clapton.'

So do millions and millions of other people of all colours and creeds. If you don't get why, and feel you need reasons - that's your problem.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:04 AM

Well, if John Peel said than he's an idiot, and it reveals how much he was influenced by image!
I can understand teenage girls prefering Claton and Jagger to Muddy and B.B.King but Peel - who clearly wasn't a musician -should be dug up and made to apologise.
Jagger is a terrible singer; indeed, I would say that he is the worst singer, ever, in a major rock band, and Clapton created his voice by mainly spending hours listening to the likes of Otis Rush.
Again, Jagger and Clapton are playing at being bluesmen while B.B. and Muddy are the real deal.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:17 AM

I love just about everything BB has done, that I've heard.

I like a lot of Clapton, singing and playing, mostly up through Derek and the Dominoes.

Don't care much for Jagger's singing but love the Stones,not much of the later stuff, though.

Never cared for Muddy Waters and his macho posturing though I like some of his songs, especially when covered by others.

Once again, it all comes down to personal preferences the rest is just...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:39 AM

Well, there is no doubt that the older bluesmen picked up on the white players - and Hendrix, of course, use of increased volume which in turn produced a richer tone ( and the white guys, and Hendrix, introduced effects pedals).
Of course, Buddy Guy says that he was the first player to really go in for very loud playing and distortion but, only live, because his record companies didn't think that Buddy's live sound would appeal to record buyers.
And, of course, the subject matter of white blues influenced bands appealed to a younger audience. They could identify with Satisfaction more readily than a Muddy Waters' song.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:42 AM

As you finally have got back to blues singers may I suggest that Eric Clapton may have been more influenced by Buddy Guy than Otis Rush. For several years Eric brought Buddy over to appear with him at his regular Royal Albert Hall concert seasons in London.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

I've just been listening to Muddy Waters on Prime streaming
while I was in the kitchen...

Same as most old Blues artists - a mix of a few tracks that stand out and 'grab' me...
and mediocre run of the mill stuff that loses my attention...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:01 PM

Of course, it's impossible for us to hear Muddy's stuff, now, as it would have sounded at the time.

Which is true of any "old music".
For example, today, on Youtube, I was watching a kid play part of Beethoven's Waldstein Piano Sonata, and I thought, " That still sounds great but my God, it must have sounded like something from another universe 200plus years ago".

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:03 PM

..and...

Now I think about it, the last time I enjoyed a gig performance by a white English Blues artist
was sometime 5 - 10 to years ago at Burnham on Sea free Folk Fest..[RIP]

Keith Christmas - but I can't remember what accent he sang in...???

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Tunesmith
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:15 PM

Ah, Keith Christmas. I once saw him ( 1971?) in the crypt of St Martin in the Field, Trafalgar Square. I remember, in those days, he used to tape his finger picks on ( I guess, previuosly, he must had picks flying off into the audience).
I think Keith used to really attack the guitar.
A friend of mine saw Keith, recently, in a gig in North Wales (?) .

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:40 PM

The first time I heard Otis Rush in the early 70's I thought, ah ha! That's where Clapton's coming from. Vocally anyway, I think they both had a heavy BB influence early on.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:42 PM

Some of us did see Muddy Waters in performsnce a number of times. I agree that it is impossble to hear dead people live but Muddy has left behind a rich legacy of recorded material. Whether or not you like it is as with everything else in life a matter of personal taste.
Making lists of best or worst is a pure waste of time.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:07 AM

I can understand teenage girls prefering Claton and Jagger to Muddy and B.B.King

I prefer Clapton and Jagger and I am no teenage girl. It is all a matter of personal tastes. If you believe yours are better than than others that is your problem. I am not all that fond of old American blues and think it is vastly overrated but I would never dream of describing those that do like it as idiots.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:48 AM

I prefer Howlin Wolf to Muddy Waters, the two great rivals of course. Clapton and B B King have a lot in common, both great guitarists, both ordinary singers. Jagger is nothing like any of these, he is a stage actor on a music stage.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM

Nothing wrong with that, David, bearing in mind that the performance of a song is sometimes as important as the song itself. I have seen top notch musicians who are wonderful to listen to at home but have bored me rigid with their live performances. Conversely, I have seen very ordinary performers who set the room on fire with their stage presence. Once again, all a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:01 AM

Ultimate of course was Arthur Brown. Probably still is, I think he is still performing.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:17 AM

Of course it would be nice to have the best of both :-) Freddie Mercury?

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 07:22 AM

If only Marc Bolan was still around...

71 years old.. Sir Marc Bolan.. one time Glam Rock idol.. now fully matured respected senior British Blues & Folk master...

The aged growling voice of authentic London Glitter Blues...

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:27 AM

Yes the only problem is that theres very little toleration for the culture of a small island community like the English. Including the music of master musicians like Bolan. Keith Richards, and Clapton.

The music which we used to dance to joyously as family occasions like weddings, or played a part in our courting rituals are drowned out by the insistent and monotonous beat of jigs and reels.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:35 AM

Al, :-D

Trouble is, according to the premise of the OP, they are better than singing in an American accent. I hope he doesn't include St Peter and John Dillenger or Down and Out Blues in his hitlist :-)

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:58 AM

I think life's too short to bandy words with the likes of the OP.

Ignorance of that order is a delicate flower, touch it with enlightenment and its gone forever.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: StephenH
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:51 PM

I know its just one person's opinion but I can't let the comment pass.
B.B. King an "ordinary singer"? - you have got to be joking!
Rather, one of the best in blues, IMHO.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 02:06 PM

Very little vocal range, BB King, certainly compared with the Wolf. His vocals are really a framework to hand his excellent guitar playing on.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 02:06 PM

hand -> hang

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: StephenH
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:04 PM

Well, I don't want to hijack this thread, so last word from me.
I'm posting this link to one of my favourite B.B. King songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1vJos6rI_s

Now , I don't do this meaning to suggest that you've never listened to
B.B. King, or insult your opinion in any manner, but just to back up my statement.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:22 PM

Riley B. King started out in blues and gospel, and, he has freely admitted,
went where the money was. King has spoken explicitly about this.
He has also confessed that gospel remained near to his heart,
even if he didn't sing it any longer.
Moreover, King had musical ambition, however diplomatic he was about presenting it;
he always longed to record music that was more like jazz than like blues,
which meant educating himself as a musician
with a training that was unavailable to him when he was very young.

The man known as Howlin' Wolf was equally aware of a bigger world of music,
whatever his performances and recordings limit themselves to.
For confirmation, one need only pay attention to statements
from Hubert Sumlin,
whom the Wolf insisted should get more education, somewhere,
on playing the guitar.

These two singers/songwriters had two different approaches to singing,
and it does not surprise me to hear
that a listener who looks up to one, belittles the other.
That's kind of an emotional reaction,
and what is more appropriate to listening to music, than emotion?
So that form of discrimination has its place.

If King did not hit the peaks or the depths of
the emotion in Howlin' Wolf's singing,
King's ambition and appetite for music took him to
a breadth of repertoire and style outside of the Wolf's territory.
Many is the music journalist,
reviewing whatever was King's latest vocal recording of the day
(until he got THAT old and his voice simply wore out and got wobbly) ,
who wrote (and published) in astonishment,
why, King really knows how to sell a lyrical ballad! In surprise.

Is the blues like flamenco, the purview of the aficionado, the fanatic?
In some circles it is, and very emotional are the opinions from such.
Again, that's their prerogative.

King, however, has been compared to Louis Armstrong,
NOT for the way he sings,
but for the trails he blazed and the ambassadorship he maintained
in taking his kinds of music
to people who had never before listened to it with respect.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:27 PM

Stephen H on BB: Rather one of the best in blues,IMHO.

Second that.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM

I think thats a fair summary Keberoxu, and ultimately as with many issues in this thread it comes down to personal taste.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:13 PM

"Riley B. King started out in blues and gospel, and, he has freely admitted,went where the money was."

Well that is unusual for somebody hoping to make a living in music. Going where the money is.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 02:17 AM

I first heard B B sometime in the 60s. I was in a record shop. when I heard somebody call my name. It was a friend of mine leaning out of one of those listening booths. "Come over he and listen to this", he said, and continued, " This is a guitar player called B B King, who has been a huge influence on Eric Clapton".
Well, I listened. But I don't think I heard the guitar because the voice just blew me away, and I knew I was listening to one of the greatest singers that I'd ever heard.

Subject: RE: You've Got to be Joking! - greatest blues singers
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 01:42 PM

Keberoxu, that poetry _was_ poetry.