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BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 05:15 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 05:26 AM
Bonzo3legs 08 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 05:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 18 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 06:03 AM
Senoufou 08 Oct 18 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 06:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 06:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 18 - 06:47 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 18 - 06:53 AM
Iains 08 Oct 18 - 06:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 07:08 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 18 - 07:22 AM
Senoufou 08 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM
Stanron 08 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 07:43 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 18 - 07:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 07:51 AM
bobad 08 Oct 18 - 07:56 AM
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Jeri 08 Oct 18 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 08:56 AM
bobad 08 Oct 18 - 09:23 AM
Donuel 08 Oct 18 - 09:24 AM
gillymor 08 Oct 18 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 09:59 AM
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wysiwyg 08 Oct 18 - 10:57 AM
bobad 08 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM
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beardedbruce 08 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 11:31 AM
gillymor 08 Oct 18 - 11:31 AM
beardedbruce 08 Oct 18 - 11:34 AM
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gillymor 08 Oct 18 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Oct 18 - 11:46 AM
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Dave the Gnome 08 Oct 18 - 01:06 PM
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robomatic 08 Oct 18 - 09:04 PM
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Jim Carroll 09 Oct 18 - 08:31 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Oct 18 - 08:32 AM
Mr Red 09 Oct 18 - 08:57 AM
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Mossback 09 Oct 18 - 09:02 AM
Jeri 09 Oct 18 - 09:25 AM
gillymor 09 Oct 18 - 09:28 AM
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Dave the Gnome 09 Oct 18 - 09:42 AM
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robomatic 09 Oct 18 - 07:35 PM
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Jim Carroll 10 Oct 18 - 03:29 AM
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Iains 10 Oct 18 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 18 - 05:31 AM
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Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 18 - 06:56 AM
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Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 18 - 07:40 AM
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Jeri 10 Oct 18 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 18 - 08:59 AM
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Jim Carroll 10 Oct 18 - 09:34 AM
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DMcG 10 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 18 - 09:45 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Oct 18 - 10:02 AM
Mossback 10 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM
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Jim Carroll 10 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM
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Tattie Bogle 10 Oct 18 - 03:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM
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Mossback 10 Oct 18 - 05:12 PM
Iains 10 Oct 18 - 05:19 PM
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beardedbruce 10 Oct 18 - 05:45 PM
Mossback 10 Oct 18 - 05:49 PM
Joe Offer 10 Oct 18 - 06:16 PM
Mossback 10 Oct 18 - 06:49 PM
Donuel 10 Oct 18 - 07:12 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 18 - 07:16 PM
robomatic 10 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM
beardedbruce 10 Oct 18 - 07:37 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Oct 18 - 03:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 18 - 03:56 AM
peteaberdeen 11 Oct 18 - 04:30 AM
peteaberdeen 11 Oct 18 - 04:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 18 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 18 - 05:03 AM
Jack Campin 11 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 18 - 06:05 AM
Donuel 11 Oct 18 - 08:20 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Oct 18 - 09:19 AM
Donuel 11 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM
Mossback 11 Oct 18 - 09:57 AM
Donuel 11 Oct 18 - 10:08 AM
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The Sandman 11 Oct 18 - 11:22 AM
Acorn4 11 Oct 18 - 12:09 PM
Jeri 11 Oct 18 - 12:35 PM
Mossback 11 Oct 18 - 12:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 18 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Oct 18 - 02:51 PM
Mossback 11 Oct 18 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Oct 18 - 06:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Oct 18 - 06:37 PM
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Jeri 11 Oct 18 - 06:58 PM
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Lighter 11 Oct 18 - 08:36 PM
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Joe Offer 11 Oct 18 - 10:05 PM
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Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 03:18 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 18 - 03:44 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 18 - 03:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 04:00 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 18 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 18 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 18 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Oct 18 - 06:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 06:55 AM
Donuel 12 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 08:27 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 18 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 18 - 09:06 AM
Donuel 12 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 09:46 AM
Jeri 12 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 09:56 AM
Donuel 12 Oct 18 - 10:08 AM
Acorn4 12 Oct 18 - 10:18 AM
Iains 12 Oct 18 - 10:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 11:00 AM
Acorn4 12 Oct 18 - 11:07 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 18 - 11:32 AM
Raggytash 12 Oct 18 - 11:38 AM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 12:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 12:44 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 18 - 12:58 PM
Acorn4 12 Oct 18 - 01:19 PM
Raggytash 12 Oct 18 - 01:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 01:53 PM
Iains 12 Oct 18 - 02:24 PM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 18 - 03:34 PM
Raggytash 12 Oct 18 - 03:52 PM
Jeri 12 Oct 18 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 18 - 04:26 PM
Donuel 12 Oct 18 - 04:41 PM
Iains 12 Oct 18 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 18 - 05:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 05:16 PM
Mossback 12 Oct 18 - 05:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 18 - 05:46 PM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 18 - 05:57 PM
Mossback 12 Oct 18 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 18 - 06:02 PM
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Stilly River Sage 12 Oct 18 - 08:34 PM
robomatic 12 Oct 18 - 09:24 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 18 - 09:43 PM
Donuel 12 Oct 18 - 10:42 PM
robomatic 12 Oct 18 - 11:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 18 - 02:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 18 - 03:40 AM
Joe Offer 13 Oct 18 - 04:06 AM
Iains 13 Oct 18 - 04:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 18 - 05:17 AM
bobad 13 Oct 18 - 08:09 AM
Iains 13 Oct 18 - 08:26 AM
Jeri 13 Oct 18 - 08:45 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 18 - 10:06 AM
Mossback 13 Oct 18 - 10:46 AM
peteaberdeen 13 Oct 18 - 10:50 AM
Senoufou 13 Oct 18 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 18 - 11:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM

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Subject: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:15 AM

On another thread the following phrase was used

I would admit that people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here. I don't see that as particularly fair, but that's a normal, human thing.

Firstly, I don't see that as being entirely correct. I believe everyone is accepted but some views are not as welcome as others.

Secondly, if some views are not appreciated, is that a bad thing? Working on the basis that most folk people lean towards the left of politics and are liberal in their outlook, it is no small wonder that many on here do not want to be subjected to right wing or conservative (with a small c) philosophy. Would, for instance, anyone on here go to a folk club and criticise a Roy Bailey or Woody Guthrie song? I think not. But neither would they consider walking into a Conservative (with a large C) convention waving a red flag. At least I wouldnt!

Yes, I know there are exceptions but they are just that. Exceptions. We should accept everyone but when views contrary to those of the majority are espoused then it should be no surprise when those views are dismissed by that majority.

I know this may be controversial but can those of a conservative (with a c of either case) nature accept that if their views are likely to clash with the general demeanour of the majority, then they are likely to create a conflict? I am not asking anyone not to do it, just to accept that their views may be at odds with most and that they are not likely to change anyone's minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:26 AM

Patently untrue
What are noy accepted here are hate postings aimed at racial and cuntural groups, but that's about it
Some people appear to believe that if you argue against it you are attempting to censor it - on the contrary - you argue against it
I took umbrage at this statement but my posting was removed - the suggestions that this happened remained
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM

Well I am staunch Conservative and that's telling you!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:42 AM

There are a number of others, Bonzo, and I have no issue with that even if I don't understand why. But if you were to post anything radically right wing I think you would accept that it would be robustly challenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:47 AM

The problem is of course, that 'most folk people' are only leftist in a certain rather bourgeois sense.

Its not because they identify with the lowest strata. Its a sort of desire to improve the lot of the poorest - which is basically a distant cousin of 19th century low church Christianity.

Compare and contrast with Orwell's insight. - Marxism has to come to Asia, becsuse the message is simple, Kill the bosses and more food for us.

Pete Seeger had, as I remember, difficulties with traditional musicians like Bascom Lunsford. And look at the problems of mudcatters in getting insight into the Brexit Leave supporters in working class communities all over England. The abuse soon begins to fly...stupid people, who have been lied to, naive idiots..., Look at the hatred of many country and western music by so many English folkies - although many more miners knew Merle Travis's Dark as a Dungeon than Tommy Armstrong long mournful ballads. I can still remember sitting at the back of the Fleetwood folk club in the 1970's and hearing English folkies sneer at working class Jack Hudson as a 'pseudo Yank'.Was there ever a miners welfare that didn't have a country and western evening?

The problem is not that folk music people are leftist. They are extremely narrow minded leftists, with very little interest in understanding how things are. They reject everything which isn't middle class.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:03 AM

"The problem is of course, that 'most folk people' are only leftist in a certain rather bourgeois sense."
That really doesn't help Al
You don't know "most socialists" and I doubt if you know of many here

"They are extremely narrow minded leftists,"
Again - not true
They come in all shapes and sizes, from Marxists to liberal left
Neither inaccurate sweeping generalisations or specific political debate is not going to help this discussion
The problem here is how people react to each other, not what they believe
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:14 AM

I'm a 'staunch Conservative' too Bonzo.
I do feel that the majority of posters here lean more to the Left, but I don't feel ostracised and have never been attacked for my political view. Some have said they were 'surprised' or even 'disappointed' but they have every right to say so.

What seems to happen though is that political threads get more and more heated, tempers rise and then insults start flying. (This would happen even in a village pub)

I just put on a tin hat, or remove myself and chat about crumpets or cats on another thread.

It's funny how various forums have a stereotype clientele. Yahoo is horribly racist and UKIP-like. Mumsnet is middle-class and 'inclusive' but fairly left-wing. As long as comments remain civil and respectful, one should have the right to express ones views freely. This isn't North Korea after all!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:41 AM

"(This would happen even in a village pub)"
That needs saying as often as necessary - some pubs ban political discussion and tolerate the furniture being thrown about over sport instead
As much aggression can take place about music - try talking about the definition of folk song, or MacColl - or try criticising Dylan - and head for your bunker
Personal insulting is another matter -
We all do it on occasion - some people make it their signature theme and always have done
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:46 AM

Well said both Eliza and Jim. My best friend is a Conservative and, in views on crime and puishment, slightly right of Genghis Khan. :-) We disagree of course but never fall out and never insult each other's intelligence.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:47 AM

'You don't know "most socialists" and I doubt if you know of many here'

Maybe not in the biblical sense, but after hanging round here for a number of years, I do see the way they talk to each other. Theres a certain predictability about the exchanges.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:53 AM

Some people come here to discuss and exchange views - on all sorts of subjects. Unfortunately, some come to provoke - one is on this thread, two others are currently absent (one, I believe, enforced, the second....who knows?).

I think the one on the thread is regarded by most of us as an amiable buffoon, and his attempts at provocation are laughed at at best, ignored at worst. The other two are nasty pieces of work whose sole intention is to sow dissent and stoke up a fight. They are best ignored but, unfortunately, they know which buttons to press and they don't hold back from doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:57 AM

Hmmmmmmmm!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM

Does that give you a good indication of their politics though, Al? You post on here as often as many others and I get the impression that you are bitter about your treatment at traditional folk clubs. But I do not know if that is really you. Personas on here are made up of what people want you to see. They are not false, but they may not show the whole picture.

Unless I have already told you you may not know, for instance, that my Dad was a lifelong union activist but hated communism. Created all sorts of conflicts at branch meetings and I think some of that has rubbed off on me :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM

well there you have it....


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:08 AM

"but after hanging round here for a number of years,"
Mudcat represents a minute numbr of the folk world and there are very few dogmatic socialists' here as far as I can see
I don't see any proszletising Marxists or Trotskyists are there any anarchists left
Nobody has ever advocated violent revolution or hanging capitalists from lamposts - my only experience of machine, factory or rick-burning is from history books
There's a certain predictability about all exchanges if you hang around enough - that's what iseas are about
We're not blank pages who come here to have ideas written on them - we come to share opinions and experiences and hopefully learn from that exchange
For a socialist you appear to be very anti-socialist Al
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:22 AM

Not really bitter about folk clubs. But certainly I have seen a lot of very talented people who haven't even enjoyed the modest success I achieved, because they lack the populist aspect of my work. . Whereas I accepted the challenge of country and western clubs, working men clubs, Irish theme pubs, writing songs for record companies and publishers, etc - and they wanted to play acoustic guitars, play to polite audiences, etc.
However they WERE people really who needed the help of the movers and shakers of the folkscene - basically I suppose the BBC. Alot of them are dead now - their songs not so much forgetten as never really listened to.

Quite frankly I don't think the folkscene deserved the quality of artists that committed to it.

I'm old...just a bit sad for departed and very talented friends. I have my place in history. Buy the boxed set for Bayern Munich, theres my song. Turned into a folksong by people who changed the words and sang it on the terraces, when Kalle deserted Bayern for Inter Milan. The Dutch who re-wrote it about cyclist Gerrie Kneteman.

I'm sorry my mates didn't get the breaks. They were relying on the folk clubs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

Many people carry about with them a sort of portable soapbox and can be relied upon to get on it and rant if the right buttons are pressed.

A chap who lives near us makes us smile. One only has to utter the word 'Benefits' and he's off. ('spongers, wasters, parasites, lazy bastards, taking the piss' etc etc) He has sometimes started on about 'bloody immigrants' then realised he's speaking to my husband, and backtracks hurriedly. Husband grins and defuses the situation by hugging the man and calling him 'my dear brother'! I always get the giggles.

It's one's own choice whether to get angry, rise to the bait and 'hit back' or retain a sense of balance, keep one's dignity and find some humour if possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

I'm not sure I'm a socialist. I really would like to see the wealth of this country invested in the people.

The rich show no signs of handing it over politely. I think it needs grabbing off the buggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

I too have voted, and will vote, Conservative and I am not surprised to find that a folk forum has a predominance of left wing members. Folk clubs were the same. Life was simpler and pleasanter if political argument was avoided. So it is here.

What those on the left may not realise is that people like me share some of their aspirations.
I'm all in favour of those at the bottom of the heap having a safety net, I've been there and I've used it. The NHS, free at the point of use, is a good thing. I've been there and used it , thank you very much! I'm all in favour of of re-nationalisation of water. I wouldn't vote against re-nationalisation of electricity and gas. I would vote against the re-nationalisation of the railways.

What I don't share with the left is the idea that it is OK to pass the cost of all this on to future generations and the idea that spending money creates money. Keynes theorised at a time when this country spent very little on it's population. At that time there was 'headroom' for increasing spending. Now, with our NHS and Welfare Systems, our spending on ourselves has plunged us into ever increasing debt. The only solution is spending within our means and, currently that means spending less. Austerity is quite a good name for it.

One side of this forum's divide relies on abuse, bad language and spurious accusations far more than the other and it it would be a nicer place if this was not the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

A socialist cares more about society and believes that wealth should be owned by the community as a whole. A capitalist cares more about their own well being and believes that wealth should be owned by the few. Over simplification but may help you decide which camp you are in.

I believe that the infrastructure that we rely on for transport, shelter, heat, water and health should be owned by the community and run for their benefit but I accept that responsible capitalism should be rewarded. Makes me pretty liberal in both senses of the word I suppose :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:43 AM

"The rich show no signs of handing it over politely. I think it needs grabbing off the buggers."
That sounds like fundamentalist anarchy to me Al -
It's never been about wealth - more about equality of opportunity
I think you should take your gripe about folk clubs onto the other section
That should be about performers committment to the music, not start recognition


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:48 AM

"The rich show no signs of handing it over politely. I think it needs grabbing off the buggers."

But you voted away the chance of that happening in the Referendum.

In early 2019 the EU is introducing controls to get a grip on the offshorers and other tax-avoiders, and make them pay tax in the country in which income/profits are earned. But May has promised to make the UK a tax-haven when we've left the EU. Brexit has nothing to do with people like you and me 'Taking Are Cuntry Back', and everything to do with a tiny, immensely wealthy cadre of tax-avoiders and evaders escaping the new EU tax-avoidance regulations. 'Take Back Control', 'Stop immigrants coming here and taking your jobs/claiming your benefits', and '£350m a week for the NHS' was just bullshit to get the embittered and the disenfranchised on their side.

Words like 'Shot', 'themselves' and 'foot' spring to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:51 AM

I understand your point Stanron but reject the premise that one side of the divide is more abusive than the other. There are abusive and insulting posts from both sides and I doubt you could get a Rizla between the counts. What you may see though is that more people are against right wing views than for them so you feel that more people are against you. They are not. It is not personal but a rejection of part of your philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:56 AM

The left wing and the right wing belong to the same bird.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:01 AM

My Dad was a Constitutional Law professor specializing in the Supreme Court so what do you expect my slant would be.
His era was about the Wobblies. WW2 and McCarthy, mine is just about wobbly wars and watching greed succeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:31 AM

The left wing and the right wing belong to the same bird.

Jeez. Never heard that before.
The problem is that one of those wings, sometimes both, are not interested in getting said bird anywhere. It's a post-stroke bird.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:56 AM

"What those on the left may not realise is that people like me share some of their aspirations."
I don't think that's true, but I do think that many conservatives definitely do not - like everything lse, it depends on the aspirations
The left tended to play a large part in folk music because they regarded it as the culture of working people - "the voice of the people" "popular (of the people" featured heavily in their understanding of the culture they dealt with
Sharp was a socialist (of his time) - Topic was established by The Workers Music Association - left came with the job description
That never excluded those who weren't left - far from it.
EFDSS tended to be more establishment minded, yet even there the left had its champions
I worked with Nibs and Jean Mathews - Nibs was a somewhat conservative middle-of-he roader - Jean, who I adored, was a socialist
We all worked together with no problems

I believe that it was a similar situation in the U.S. - the initiali work in salvaging the songs was inspired by Roosevelt's 'New Deal', designed to tackle unemployment which dragged in the Lomax's who ran with the ball and inspired the revival there

One of the problems with the folk scene now is that it has been ripped
from its social roots and the term 'folk' no longer means anything to far too many people (in my opinion)

"The problem is that one of those wings, sometimes both, are not interested in getting said bird anywhere."
Nice insight
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:23 AM

The problem is that one of those wings, sometimes both, are not interested in getting said bird anywhere

Right, the bird can only fly when both wings work together.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:24 AM

To boil down my position I am opposed to the tearing down of the separation of powers, federalism, justice and Democracy itself.

I can imagine that one day Trump could tweet that he has criminalized the mob rule democratic party and fake news journalists or create a similar power consolidation purge. That's what dictators do.

It seems like many neo republicans would be happy with a one man Putin like rule. At least the evil dirty democrat party will have been killed.

Its not populism it is manufactured lies designed for hate and revenge.

Like I say emotions rule decisions much more than facts.

That's it in a nutshell.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:31 AM

Pretty words but the bird's right side wants to eat all the sunflower seeds and the left side recognizes the inequity of that and is not going to go along passively in the interest of appearing "reasonable". It's an ancient story.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:59 AM

I suggest this argument belongs elsewhere
We pretty well know where everyone stands on these points
As you say, it's an ancient story
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:07 AM

I thought the bird blurb was BS 20 years ago.

Did you know it takes 200 humming birds to make 1 bird tongue pate' on toast? ;^/


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:37 AM

Democrats in this country have been sitting around the campfire singing Khumbaya while trump, his friends and the raptors that preceded them have been monopolizing the wealth of this country and the entire world for almost 50 years now. It's an old story but it needs constant retelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:57 AM

The "bird" is greed-- crass capitalism-- and I don't want it to fly at all because it shits on all of us, while we chase after the pretty plumage.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM

Ideologues of both political persuasions have been the cause of much of the avoidable human misery in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:22 AM

lol ~S~


Gil is right democrats do bring a covered dish to a gun fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM

gillymor,

Your facts are incorrect- over the last 50 years, the country has been controlled by each party about the same amount. Please4 don't use fake facts that make you feel good, but are not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:31 AM

can you people take your arguments about US politics to another thread


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:31 AM

bb, democrats have been complicit in this redistribution of wealth, I didn't suggest otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:34 AM

Does not sound like it from your post:
"Democrats in this country have been sitting around the campfire singing Khumbaya while trump, his friends... "


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:36 AM

The Dems have been running the country for as much time as the Reps. So if there are 50 years worth of problems, the blame is on BOTH parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:39 AM

Read it however you please, bb.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:46 AM

an a mod please ask this to stop rather than closing what was a perfectly valid thread please ?
Plenty of room on the Kavanagh thread
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:09 PM

Never let it be said I will not give credit where credit is due. Bobad, your phrase the bird can only fly when both wings work together is one that I will use wherever I can now. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:48 PM

'Cept it has nuthin' to do with Bobad whatsoever; credit where credit due & all that -

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=37034


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:06 PM

Thanks for the info, Mossback, but the credit is for bringing it to my attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:09 PM

Jim, we are on Mudcat. These are political leanings.
They may be from the silly to sublime but you got what you asked for.
I believe you often: take an argumentative point of view.
One can also take an informative stance which you do at times.
I don't see a problem.
\\
^
O


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:20 PM

This is a suppoed to be a discussion about the forum itself - not individual subjects - a response to accusations that one group is supposedly intolerant of other views
There really is room on other threads to slug out the subjects
Bruce seems happy to spread his behaviour over several threads at a time - I'm somewhat surprised that you do
We really need to sort ourselves out before we sort out the world's problems!
This seemed to be an ideal opportunity -now it's becoming the old-usual bar-room brawl
Pity
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:48 PM

the bird needing 2 wings to fly idea was a quote in tony benn's diaries attributed to an old labour (in both senses) politician in the 70s - eric heffer. i use that in my labour party branch meetings= we get along pretty well.

there are some things in the UK - particularly our public services and recently privatised industries- that are supported by and even cherished by a majority of people here - even conservatives and their ilk. it's odd- while that party are actively working to starve and sell-off (NHS for example, or benefits for disabled people) much of what makes our country just about a good place to live - people will still vote tory.

i've come to the sad conclusion that people actually think we ought to be ruled by toffs. (and people love to have an enemy to fight) even while they are clearly not working in their interests.

ach, i'll stop rambling- i don't think the terms left/right mean much anymore (until recently there has never been much difference between labour/tory or democrat/republican} it's more whether you have a 'closed' or 'open' - outlook. whatever you are manners cost nowt

'all the problems in the world are caused by the fact that we can't understand each other' - but we all need to try


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:57 PM

Well I hate "the Tories" with all my strength, but I regard people who vote Tory who are other than very rich to be severely misguided, and not to be hated. Senoufou is a Tory supporter - God knows why when she's seen in life all those things she's told us about - but she and I are more than capable of enjoying many a friendly banter here. It's my experience on this forum that many people (by no means all) who express views that would be considered right-wing do not express them in a clear-headed or honest fashion. There are several posters here, for example, who twisted and turned so much over the Johnson bus lie, instead of accepting very early on, when confronted with the facts, that it was a blatant piece of dishonesty. I can't think of a single leftie here who didn't freely admit that the remain campaign was just as dishonest, but we still endured wrong-headed assertions from our resident Tories that the campaign was somehow fair and democratic. They seemed to cling to that because "they'd won." The same people accuse us lefties of tribalism...ironic or what. Taking stances like that invites ridicule (whether that ridicule should be articulated here is another matter). Then there's the matter of automatic ridicule because the person posting on the receiving end is who he is. This kind of tribalism here is far more pronounced on the right.

But I'm not bothered. A lot of my posts are a bit like this one. For all I know, every single point I've made could be wrong. But the feeling that there's a Tory behind every lamp-post ready to pounce, no matter what you've said, is repressive.

Not going to go down well, this, is it? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:46 PM

Hahahaha Steve, there isn't a lamp-post wide enough for me to hide behind! :)

But you're right, we differ enormously in our political views but manage nevertheless to have some great exchanges and interesting, friendly conversations.

(We even once declared our love for eachother if I remember rightly, hee hee)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:59 PM

I don't see a right wing ideology as ever being clear headed or honest today. The essence of Truth is totally lost.

The effects of tribalism has reduced politics to be trapped within a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream, in most if not all social media and Trump tweets.

I see many people do not have cohesive thoughts unless its about religion or guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 03:25 PM

"Then there's the matter of automatic ridicule because the person posting on the receiving end is who he is. This kind of tribalism here is far more pronounced on the right"

I do not agree. Here on Mudcat, this is almost a standard tactic of the Left. There are almost never attacks on the presented information, but always personal attacks on the person posting.

IMHO- and yes, even **I** am entitled to one, regardless of YOUR opinion(s)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 03:26 PM

I don't see a left wing ideology as ever being clear headed or honest today. The essence of Truth is totally lost.


IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 03:39 PM

Well I'd rather be muddle headed and dishonest than a bloody tory.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 03:54 PM

I'd rather play a ukelele.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:47 PM

Here on Mudcat, this is almost a standard tactic of the Left. There are almost never attacks on the presented information, but always personal attacks on the person posting.

Gee, this Bruce person is almost as whiney, entitled, and believable as his hero Justice Brett Perjury, ain't he?

Could Bruce BE Justice Perjury under another sobriquet?

The "American Barometer" will tally your answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:52 PM

"Then there's the matter of automatic ridicule because the person posting on the receiving end is who he is. This kind of tribalism here is far more pronounced on the right"

I do not agree. Here on Mudcat, this is almost a standard tactic of the Left. There are almost never attacks on the presented information, but always personal attacks on the person posting.


But you see, Bruce, I gave you an example of the routine wrong-headedness of Tory/right-wing attitudes here. All you can do is "not agree," then trot out the same old right-wing whinge that we're all getting at you. When I post in riposte to anything you post, I address the (usually ill-considered) points you make. If goaded I also do that awful human thing and mete out the ridicule I think you deserve but which I should quite possibly refrain from. That's how it goes and that's also what you do in spades. But, in my experience, you have nothing to complain about. Almost always, if you make any point at all, it gets addressed. Go back in history and check, and refrain from the knee-jerk cheap shots. We're all fluffy bunnies, us lefties, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:59 PM

Nope. Bruce's High School did not have its own golf course, hot tubs, TV studio and sauna. Bret had a Porsch and his friends had either S class or GL Mercedes. Bruce had an Econo van. However Bruce does like beer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:19 PM

Never mind Bruce - heres a song for you


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nByAGNE0Gk


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:04 PM

I think a lot of you are 'frozen in time'. For instance, I've heard the phrase 'right of Attila the Hun' (used the phrase meself) but I do not think Attila was on the scale. He was a tribal leader. I don't think he was even a mercantalist!
It doesn't make sense anymore. And if it doesn't make sense now, did it ever?

Technology is a bunch of tools. They both free and enslave.

As to socialism and capitalism, they're just a couple of names. . .that free and enslave.

I like the comment that the only thing wrong with Socialism is that it IS possible.

Socialism seems to work when there are more people than property. It is a way to share the property, or, if you like, resources. And in its highest (dated) idealism, it can be defined in four words: "The dignity of work." In its lowest forms it has resulted in some of the most backward totalitarian nations the world has ever seen. Check out Venezuela for one of the most recent examples.

Over time, a well organized and sharing socialist society starts to generate enough wealth that sharing it becomes harder than just letting people have the property they want to have in their own houses/ garages.

In the real world it is the capitalist societies, WITH appropriate regulations, which generate wealth and progress. The essence of capitalism is freedom of choice on both the creation and the consumption of goods and services. It has a dark side as well, slavery, child labor, debtors' prisons.

A capitalist society by definition produces winners and losers. And it is possible to be both in such a society. But then, a socialist society seems to produce mainly losers.

Think Socialism = Monoculture. Boredom. One kind of toilet paper in GUM. And not very absorbent.
Capitalism = Polyculture, Diversity. Too damn many brands of toilet paper but you can find one that makes your fanny happy. Messy but way more interesting.

Socialism and Capitalism both can lead to consolidation of political power and a few people trying to tell a lot of people what to think and how to behave. Worth a Woody Guthrie song in either case.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:14 PM

I find the same "tactics" used by both sides of the political spectrum. But I'm a rabid centerist who will compromise for the common good.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:44 PM

song: Super Surfing Santa's by the Sea says Christmas tyme to me.
Merry Xmas back atcha mate.
Ever notice republicans start complaining about a war on Christmas around Thanksgiving? They act like little perpetual whining victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:28 PM

I understand that the Supreme Court is permitting a Christmas creche display in DC this year, but it probably won't happen. They can't find three wise men and there is a massive search on for a virgin. The biggest problem is that there are so many asses that they don't have a place to put them all.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:42 PM

From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 03:25 PM

"Then there's the matter of automatic ridicule because the person posting on the receiving end is who he is. This kind of tribalism here is far more pronounced on the right"

I do not agree. Here on Mudcat, this is almost a standard tactic of the Left. There are almost never attacks on the presented information, but always personal attacks on the person posting

"From: Mossback - PM
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:47 PM

Here on Mudcat, this is almost a standard tactic of the Left. There are almost never attacks on the presented information, but always personal attacks on the person posting.

Gee, this Bruce person is almost as whiney, entitled, and believable as his hero Justice Brett Perjury, ain't he?

Could Bruce BE Justice Perjury under another sobriquet?

The "American Barometer" will tally your answers."

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:45 PM

" However Bruce does like beer"

Actually, I don't. I was into single malts before 20 Nov 1991, and have had only one alcoholic drink since then ( Not by choice).


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:33 PM

great song though Bruce, cheer up mate!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:13 AM

Johnny Cash


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:13 AM

Gilbert & Sullivan


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:07 AM

As to socialism and capitalism, they're just a couple of names. . .that free and enslave."
At least you got the order right
Slavery was the product of a profit-driven class divides society and was only abolished whan it was realise that it was more profitable to use labour free from responsibility rather than maintain slaves
One of the greatest excesses of Capitalism was the Holocaust, which was financed by German industrial capitalism which re-introduced slavery in the shape of imprisoned Jews into the factories.
The present thirst for oil threatens to even leave that standing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:03 AM

The thing is Jim, do you think the poor buggers in the Gulag said - well at least I'm not being exploited by greedy capitalists!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:08 AM

robomatic, your post yesterday at 9.04 was absolutely brilliant. I've read it several times and like it very much.

I also had never heard that Johnny Cash song about the folk group. Hilarious! "And the one at the back was...a Methodist!"
The lyrics express exactly how I feel about strident political tub-thumping.

PS didn't Johnny Cash have a wonderful, resonating voice?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:14 AM

The thing is A that the Gulags were a form of imprisonment not slavery - and they were an anomaly, not part of socialism - they were originally set up by the Tsars to keep the people in line
Slavery and exploitation were and are an essential built-in part of the Capitalist system, whatever the distortions and corruptions of the Soviet system, the ideal of socialism is ending exploitation
You really have swallowed this Cold War shit haven't you ?
To you ever thing to mention the Gulag in Guantanamo or the fact that our high-street shops are full of products produced under slave-labour conditions in countries we profit from by selling arms to their despotic leaders in order to keep their people in line?
I've never known you to do so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:27 AM

Robo. Raining cats and dogs has never made sense either but everyone know what people mean by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:40 AM

Robo has made a number of unsubstantiated claims of people makign personal attacks - his friend Bruce is probably the worst culprit


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:36 AM

Senoufou, I can see where your allegiances would make sense if Macmillan was still PM. But this lot?

the Home Office doing what May told them to

Surely you have to be concerned about what they want to do to your husband?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:58 AM

Au contraire, Eliza, robomatic's post was a heap of bilge. Consider this couple of lines, to take one example:

"In the real world it is the capitalist societies, WITH appropriate regulations, which generate wealth and progress. The essence of capitalism is freedom of choice on both the creation and the consumption of goods and services. It has a dark side as well, slavery, child labor, debtors' prisons."

In the real world there has rarely, if ever, been a capitalist society that has enjoyed "appropriate regulations." Capitalist societies have regulations that favour huge corporations (they pay very little tax and wield massive undemocratic power) and that favour handouts to the wealthy. Capitalist societies lay great store by the overriding need to make money whilst abusing, exploiting and neglecting the people at the bottom, the REAL wealth creators. "Freedom of choice" depends entirely on how rich you are and always has done. It's a brainless mantra routinely trotted out by the right. In his list of "dark sides," which reads like something comfortably in the past in some Dickensian novel, he conveniently forgets that capitalism led to the Holocaust, an arms trade that has led to tens of millions of deaths and to the near-collapse of the world economy in 2008, prevented only by massive bale-outs of banks with taxpayer money that led to the banks continuing to behave just as badly, carrying on taking their bonuses almost as much, and a lying bunch of capitalist Tories telling us that we were all in it together, when the truth has been that working people have been floundering in a mire of abusive austerity while the rich continue to get richer. His capitalist fairyland is for the few. I'm surprised, seeing all the things you've seen in life, that he managed to take you in so comprehensively.

Incidentally, his selection of Venezuela as an example of a failed socialist project laughably forgot to mention that his own country, for ideological reasons, made concerted efforts for years to undermine Chavez. "Any friend of Cuba is an enemy of mine and we will kick your ass big-time in consequence." A neat summing-up of US foreign policy towards any country that dares to turn left.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:07 AM

"Slavery and exploitation were and are an essential built-in part of the Capitalist system"

Great documentary last night on the Beeb, highlighting the uttterly ruthless devastation of the environment in Indonesia visited on the country by that epitome of freedom-of-choice capitalism, "the fashion industry." Not to speak of the drying-up of the Aral Sea so that cotton fields upstream of the lake could be irrigated, to produce all that nice cotton for our togs. Not even those shining virtuous lights of capitalism, Marks and Spencer and Next, would give the journalist an interview. There was no need to guess why not. I could scarcely believe what I was watching.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:22 AM

Let's not get too carried away with the pros and cons of any particular system. Thanks all for, in the main, keeping it 'clean' but I was hoping the thread would highlight that the Mudcat, as with most folk clubs, leans somewhat to the left and is liberal in its ideology. As such, it is only to be expected that right wing and conservative views will be frowned upon by the majority.

Any views on that?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:05 AM

Jack, that case you referred to was indeed very sad and disgraceful.

My husband's application for a Marriage Visa took place while Labour was in power. And the Home Office made a very basic but awful administrative mistake and refused him entry into the UK, resulting in an Appeal.

I had to go down to the Court in London, and it all cost me £1,400. The judge decided it had been 'an obvious error' and awarded the Visa.

The Representative of the Home Office who was present at the Appeal fell asleep during the proceedings, and when asked if she had anything to say, yawned hugely and said, "Nah!" This didn't impress me much...

He is safe as houses now, as he achieved Leave to Remain, Further Leave to Remain, Indefinite Leave to Remain (Settlement), British Citizenship and a UK passport.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:16 AM

I am shocked there is gambling in this establihmnt - Casa Blanca

The monopolist politcian whines in anger that he is being attacked and defiled. He is soo angry. He only has all of the Congress, Courts, Prsidency, DOD, State dept and his thumb on the Justice dept.

If the tub thumping right are poor victims it is of their own deliberate creation. They get more anger for their buck with personal attacks of course. They condemn anger in the other side.
Without generating anger they fail.

Eventually the anger angle works against them when the opposition is mobilized by their own genuine anger.

emotions win elections not facts


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:26 AM

The trick is to condemn the anger merchants in a highly charged emotional way. Or courtiously lose elections. Beto in TX is doing just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:38 AM

Gentlemen this election belongs to the women and they are mad at Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:44 AM

It is the Dems who are the ones running on hate this election- Jusr listen to their campaign ads.

IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:19 AM

'You really have swallowed this Cold War shit haven't you ?'

You'll change your tune when the Ruskies are over there smearing novichoc on your crubeens and white pudding.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:26 AM

Life was so much simpler twenty or thirty years ago - Left or Right.

The situation in Italy is interesting where you've got a left/right coalition against the 'globalist' centre.

On a few things even Jeremy Corbyn and Donald Trump seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

I just think there's far too much knee jerk stuff these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:31 AM

What few things?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:31 AM

I assume that was a joke - today's 'free Russia' ais a very different kette of dingbats than the 'enslaved' one

It's your lot who are building Berlin-type walls, debasing women, undermining the justice and security services abd boasting about "rd buttons'
You are as big a laughing stock by defending this clown as the clown you are defending
Wonder what happened to our 'Jew-hater' since you became the spokesman for a racist whise administration is riddled with anti-semites
Extremist rightism takes precedence, I suppose
Jim Carroll

From,m USA Today
President Trump wants 'the facts' on right-wing extremism. Here they are.
Erroll G. Southers Opinion contributor
Published 5:48 AM EDT Aug 18, 2017

A flower memorial dedicated to Charlottesville victim Heather Heyer.
Steve Helber, AP
In the aftermath of the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va., President Trump said he needed to have “the facts” before passing judgment on whether a torch-carrying, swastika-waving mob deserved condemnation.

Mr. President, here’s a fact. The white nationalist and homegrown violent extremist James Alex Fields Jr. has been charged with killing Heather Heyer in an ISIS-style terrorist attack. And here’s another fact: right-wing violent extremism in the United States has been growing dramatically for years, and your equivocation is emboldening its adherents.

The “Unite the Right” gathering was not just another racist rally. It was terrible evidence of a dangerous convergence of extremist ideologies that extol the notion of “RAHOWA” (racial holy war). The Charlottesville rally put neo-Nazis, militia Constitutionalists, neo-Confederates and several factions of the KKK shoulder to shoulder. These groups are traditionally fragmented and rife with internal conflict. In Charlottesville, they found in one another a shared desire for legitimacy. When the most powerful person in the world abdicates a moral obligation to call these groups what they are, it grants them the legitimacy they seek.

Trump is right — violent extremists on both sides are a threat

Police must act fast to protect First Amendment rights: Robert Shibley

To further satisfy the president’s sudden desire for fact, it is essential to understand that the road to the Charlottesville attack was not traveled in a night, nor even a decade. Since 9/11, the uptick in terrorism has not come from foreign threats. Instead it is owed to homegrown terrorists, with significant surges in attacks in 2008 and 2012, coinciding with the election and re-election of Barack Obama, America’s first African-American president.

The New America Foundation reports an almost 2-1 ratio of attacks by far-right extremists over Islamist extremists. The Anti-Defamation League reports that from 2007 to 2016, a diverse collection of extremists was responsible for the deaths of at least 372 people in the United States; 74% of these murders came at the hands of right wing extremists. These trends are accelerating, rapidly. In an eight-day period in May, for example, there was a string of violent extremist incidents that received little media attention and, unsurprisingly, no condemnation from the president.

•    May 20 – Richard Collins III, an African American and Bowie State University student, was stabbed to death by Sean Urbanski, a member of a Facebook group called the "Alt-Reich: Nation."

•    May 26 – Three men in Portland tried to stop white supremacist Jeremy Christian from harassing two women who appeared to be Muslim. For their bravery, the three men were viciously attacked; two were murdered and the third was seriously injured.

•    May 27 – Anthony Hammond was arrested in Clearlake, Calif. for allegedly stabbing a black man with a machete, after yelling racial slurs. While en route to the Lake County Jail, Hammond threatened to kill the transporting officer and his family once he was released. Hammond was charged with committing a hate crime, among other charges.

•    May 28 – Two Native American men in Washington State were run over by a pickup truck driven by a white man shouting racial slurs and war whoops. One of the tribal members was killed and the other hospitalized.

All of these attacks were committed by extremists who appear to be inspired by a politically motivated ideology that posits racial, moral and religious superiority and demands violent action to advance it. People are dead or injured because of ideologically motived attacks. Where is the public outrage? Where are the calls for national unity and enhanced security? Why aren’t we asking where and how these people were radicalized?

POLICING THE USA: A look at race, justice, media
Trump and white supremacist haters: He's delivering much more than words
The truth of it is that our nation has been conditioned to view terrorism as the exclusive province of extremist Muslims. And now the chickens are coming home to roost. For far too long, the terrorist threat from white supremacists has grown in the shadows. They are feeling emboldened, shameless for their shameful ideas, and they are coming together in ways that will only lead to more violence.

We are facing a clear and present danger. We all must rally behind the ideas of equality and freedom, led by an executive branch that calls racism and terrorism what it is. Until we do that, there is no question this will happen again. That’s a fact.

Erroll G. Southers, a former FBI special agent and former assistant chief of police, Los Angeles World Airports Police Department, is director of Homegrown Violent Extremism Studies at the University of Southern California Sol Price School of Public Policy. Follow him on Twitter: @esouthersHVE


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:32 AM

I think there's far too much smearing of individuals, far too much playing to the gallery, far too much reliance placed on slogans and sound bites, and far too little by way of thought-through, properly costed policies - especially by the Right, much less so by the Left.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:57 AM

What seems to happen though is that political threads get more and more heated, tempers rise and then insults start flying

That is because people attack people who attack people who attack people.

If only the reactionary of all political conceits would address the issue instead of the person. A wish in vain.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:00 AM

In the spirit of the opening post, Dave, let's indulge in some completely unjustified stereotyping, parody even. Us folkie types use beaten-up old guitars that can't be tuned, two-quid Generations, ancient hand-me-down Echo harmonicas that Grandad used to play and singing voices that have been exposed to decades of fags, coal dust, cloth ears and gallons of Double Diamond. We exercise our craft in the most dingy of smoky pub back rooms with flaking paint and condensation running down the walls. The bogs have no lights and, well, forget hand basins. We listen to the same songs we heard last week, each of which is preceded by the same tedious over-long spiel you've already heard fifty times, but at least it's democratic and everybody has a go. There's a raffle at half-time in which, if you're lucky, you might win a cassette by someone you can't stand (it'll turn up again in next week's raffle, don't you worry). There's no free beer, the thump of the jukebox in the saloon bar drowns your tempo out and if you want a pint you have to go through two doors, one of which jams all the time, so forget trying to carry more than one pint. As you listen to the same old, you notice the stuffing is falling out of the seat that's so sticky you just know your trousers won't do another day.

That's enough to turn even Norman Tebbitt into a leftie! But of course Norman doesn't go to folk clubs. Big knobs like that will be dining at the Ritz or falling asleep at Covent Garden during an opera that they are pretending to understand but haven't a clue about. The twain don't meet, not really. Well, a few working-class folks do go to the opera, though never to sit in those boxes, not to show off but because they understand and have a deep appreciation of what's going on. It could well be that the occasional public school bod nips into a folk club now and then, but you wouldn't know because he'll be in disguise and he would never willingly tell you.

I'm going into hiding now. A posse would be useless.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:02 AM

It is the Dems who are the ones running on hate this election- Jusr listen to their campaign ads.

Didn't realize you did stand-up comedy, Bruce.

And now, back to the world of facts and reality....


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:25 AM

The facts, the truth, is against the right wing extremists, so they claim it's "fake news" - propaganda from the left.
How do you twist and spin when fundamental reality is against you? I don't like it when the left spins things. They don't NEED to.

The more their base justifies and excuses liars, and wannabe rapists, and do-nothing, money-grubbing, women-dismissing and denigrating, red-faced, nut jobs, the more they defeat themselves. Bye.

It's not hate. It's hopefully inspirational anger, and a determination to not put up with the shit any longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:28 AM

If bb is correct that enmity is well-earned.
Speaking of Echo Harps, I have one handed down from my Dutch grandfather in it's original box. I'm told he could really play it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:37 AM

Re the question Trump/Corbyn similarities referred to above.

Opposition to globalisation.

Opposition to mainstream media.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:42 AM

I didn't know you still visited folk clubs in Lancashire, Steve?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:20 AM

"Opposition to globalisation".

What does this even mean? What does globalisation even mean? If you look it up in an online dictionary it seems to mean businesses operating on an international scale. Well of course they do. Transport and communications technology has been advancing ever since the inventions of the wheel and of writing. So the physical size of the units in which people operate increases. Big deal. Corbyn isn't opposed to this. Trump probably isn't opposed to this, he is a business owner after all. People trot out globalisation as the source of their ills when what they really mean is progress that they havn't bothered to keep up with.

"Opposition to mainstream media".

Depends a bit on what you mean by mainstream. To me the Guardian is pretty mainstream and I don't see Corbyn being opposed to that. To me the Mail and Express are sewer rags which I would't sully my arse by wiping it with. But others for some reason see them as mainstream. No idea what Corbyn thinks of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:23 AM

I think you'll find that opposition to the mainstream media is the speciality of the Tories. Ask anyone at the Beeb. I don't see a lot of anti-media stuff coming from the Labour Party, though if anyone has an axe to grind on that front it's them. As for globalisation, whatever it is, I suspect that Corbyn and Trump approach the thing from very different perspectives. Socialists are internationalists too. Many Tories and their fellow-travellers on the right tend to be little Englanders round these parts. They have far more in common with Trump's isolationism, racism and protectionism than Labour will ever have.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM

"Us folkie types use beaten-up old guitars that can't be tuned"

Errrrmmm...who's this 'us'? Speak for yerself, you might use 'beaten-up old guitars that can't be tuned', but I most definitely do not! :-O :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:27 AM

Cross-posted with you there, David. I agree with what you say. It seems that the right deals more in received wisdoms and comfy mantras than in taking on issues in a measured and objective manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:29 AM

I don't know one end of a guitar from another, John, but I HAVE seen a few horrors in use in folk clubs! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:30 AM

...and I did say I was indulging in unjustified stereotypes, before you come to get me!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:45 AM

Just pulling your wotsit, Steve - I knew all that! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:48 AM

"Just pulling your wotsit, Steve"
Get a room you two!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:24 PM

I think there's far too much smearing of individuals, far too much playing to the gallery, far too much reliance placed on slogans and sound bites, and far too little by way of thought-through, properly costed policies - especially by the Left, less so by the Right.

IMO



Mossback,

Have you heard ANY of the campaign ads here in Maryland, for the Govenor's race?

YOU need a long trip to the world of facts and reality....




The more the Democratic base justifies and excuses liars, and rapists, and do-nothing, money-grubbing, women-dismissing and denigrating, red-faced, nut jobs, the more they defeat themselves.

But I see the Clintons are out on tour, raising money to line their pockets.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

I think it was Tarrega, who was asked his thoughts on the forty five years, he'd spent playing the guitar.

He said, only five years playing - I spent the other forty tuning the damn thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:55 PM

There have been quite a few complaints from Corbyn supporters about unfair treatment by the BBC. More importantly:

Being a soapbox for climate change cranks

Plugging Brexit

...and Unionist anti-Scottish-independence spin and downright lies several times a day, don't get me started. All of the "All Under One Banner" demos have had people carrying placards attacking the BBC or lampooning them in songs - it's not even seen as a matter of political debate any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:01 PM

"Moneygrubber the New York Times
"Even when it comes to a sick baby in his family, Donald Trump is all business. The megabuilder and his siblings Robert and Maryanne terminated their nephew’s family medical coverage a week after he challenged the will of their father, Fred Trump. “This was so shocking, so disappointing and so vindictive,” said niece Lisa Trump, whose son, William, was born 18 months ago at Mount Sinai Medical Center with a rare neurological disorder that produces violent seizures, brain damage and medical bills topping $300,000."

MORE GOODIES HERE

SLOGANS AND SOUNDBITES


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

MORE SLOGANS AND SOUNDBITES


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:17 PM

Thread #165019   Message #3955595
Posted By: Dave the Gnome
09-Oct-18 - 06:22 AM
Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

Let's not get too carried away with the pros and cons of any particular system. Thanks all for, in the main, keeping it 'clean' but I was hoping the thread would highlight that the Mudcat, as with most folk clubs, leans somewhat to the left and is liberal in its ideology. As such, it is only to be expected that right wing and conservative views will be frowned upon by the majority.

Any views on that?



And there, you see, is the problem and the source of my disappointment. I came of age in the 1960s. At the time, two major aspects of liberalism, at least in the U.S., were pacifism and tolerance. But then I came to Mudcat, and came across a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist.
They are very self-righteous about their putative right to bully other ways of thinking away.
And I don't like it.

Of course, there was a time when the marks of conservatism were personal responsibility and protection of individual rights, along with a sense of fair play. That's gone, too.
And I don't like it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:09 PM

Ah, Joe and the myth of the golden age... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:17 PM

Tolerance is what it is all about, Joe. Right from the outset I have said that all should be welcome here. My only point is that the right wing conservatives seem to be surprised and take offence when anyone argues against their views. It is not just here. It is happening world wide and at the head of it is your president. You should always expect a platform within the liberal, tolerant folk world. But don't expect a free ride.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:22 PM

And, BTW, those tolerant pacifists of the 60s were not called angry young men for nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:29 PM

Don't expect to see Tories complaining about this example of the BBC's bias:

Anti-EU hegemony on Question Time


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:18 PM

Again, I don't want to be too tied to 'left' 'right' liberal, conservative, because I think it promotes knee jerks.

Cases in point: One of our astronauts just got in trouble for quoting Winston Churchill. Then he backed off and got in trouble for backing off.

I remember enough of the 70s to remember there was MORE freedom of expression then, partly because the mavens of PC were just getting started and were more reasonable. Also because more conservatives were intellectual (William F. Buckley) and had more of a sense of humor (Barry Goldwater, Johnny Cash). And also because there was less of an in-all-our-faces effect which the social networks now make not only possible, but frequent.

I called into one of our AM local radio shows where everyone was attacking our Senator, Lisa Murkowski, for her votes and thoughtful words about her votes regarding the Kavanaugh affair. I simply stated that I found Dr. Christie Blasey Ford credible, that I felt Kavanaugh had obviously prevaricated about his high school yearbook, and had not responded to questioning in as dignified a manner as I would like from my supremes. Then people called in finding my opinion too credulous about Dr. Ford. When that was precisely what the President had said a few days before.

Life is tough when you leave ideology behind. It kinda wants to stick to your shoe.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:30 PM

I ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon,
I'll let you know !

It's gonna be a toss up.

Yes democrats are challenged to have a decent platform.
Yes republicans can dress up a pack of lies that look good.
Yes there are unwashed losers who want to look like winners who vote
Yes the young don't vote
Yes there are lots of intelligent voters.
Yes the system is rigged hacked and whacked


but its gonna be a toss up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:41 PM

Joe this is the universe we are talking about.
Things move around and turn inside out
Political parties switch places entirely.
100 years ago the Republicans were the civil rights party.
I can go into much detail on this.
Keep a political party starved for truth and it gets demonstrably hungry

But please don't buy into angry mobs roaming the capitol attacking people in elevators and diners. That only reminds me of hooligan gangs of grannies as in Monty Python.

Anonymous people here certainly enjoy making their bark worse than their bite.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:43 PM

Johnny Cash a conservative? Weird.
The problem I have, and I figure I'm not alone, is that politics (mostly the right wing) seems to be more about power than public service, and it doesn't cause problems that their followers seem to think that's just fine. I think we'd probably have less of an problem with them if they seemed to care about other humans.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:50 PM

You do realize the brains of conservatives are actually different?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:57 PM

"And also because there was less of an in-all-our-faces effect which the social networks now make not only possible, but frequent."

If this troubles you, the answer is simple: avoid all social media. Mudcat is the nearest thing to social media I ever indulge in by a long chalk. I'm cheerfully ignorant of the social media effect insofar as it directly impacts my life, though I'm told it bleeds into other areas of life. It may well affect me but it isn't in-my-face. Let's hope that baleful things such as Facebook and Twitter go the way of Friends Reunited. I'm sure they will, and I hope they take the fake and shallow politicians who resort to them with them. But if you want to blame populism on social media, let's see the evidence. I'm not so sure about that. Social media didn't exist when Hitler was on the rise.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM

That's interesting Steve.

Which came first the dictator's populism or the social media propoganda?

I'd say it was the egg but I am still waiting for the chicken or egg.

Come on everyone we have not exhausted Democracy.
Saving it however is exhaustng


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:33 PM

The term 'Fake News' comes out of 1938 South America and Brazil. It was invented as a response to the propaganda Goebbels sent to that hemisphere regarding the glorious spread of Hitlerism.

The technology changes from news reels to face book but the tune is still recognizable.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:35 PM

Another thing. Posting stories about Donald Trump as if the reporter has figured him out and he is__________
An Antisemite
A Liar
A Criminal
A Thief
A This
A That

If you think you can pin him down you don't 'get' Donald Trump. He is a B*llSh*t Artist par excellence. He has
one principle and it is, let's all say it together, Donald Trump This is something that is not new to America, but it is sorta new in the Oval Office.

He does not so much tell a lie, or the truth, as tell you what he wants you to believe at the time. He went from Dr. Christie Blasey Ford was credible, to challenging everything about her credibility to "it was a hoax" in half a week.

This is both interesting, in that he can talk to anyone at any time, and truly scary.


And all the time he was doing 'business' or running for President, or being President, this has been in the open for all to see it. The Democrats and the New York Times are as exhausted as an outfielder catching random fly balls, the Republicans are lying lying lying both to the public and to themselves because they are spinning the fly balls as home runs.


One thing seems to track: He lets down everyone who trusts him.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:41 PM

That's the spirit


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:50 PM

In case you missed Jims link folk singers political leanings


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:24 PM

Hillary says its impossible to be civil with people who want to destroy everything you believe in.
That's true but the words everything and impossible are exaggerations
.for now.


Here is the paradox; The right wing base is impressed by the chaos that Trump incites and left wing demonstrations ensue. I say we have to risk it to mobilize ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:29 AM

"In case you missed Jims"
Thanks for that D - I'll have a silly grin for the rest of the morning
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:45 AM

I'd just point out that, from a UK perspective, people such as Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are considered to be pretty right-wing. Lest we forget.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:23 AM

" But then I came to Mudcat, and came across a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist.
They are very self-righteous about their putative right to bully other ways of thinking away."

I assume it is Liberal in the American sense of the word. i.e.left.

Very true words Joe. Some of them are trying hard to provoke on another thread! A very clear demonstration of the veracity of your statement!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:31 AM

"rabid liberals " - is an oxymoron used by right wing morons to defend extremism as far as I'm concern
I have to say I'm surprised at a mos using the term to attack members of this forum - wonder if he'll close the thread down!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:32 AM

Should be 'mod'


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:55 AM

"Some of them are trying hard to provoke on another thread! A very clear demonstration of the veracity of your statement!"
It's this type of unqualified accusation that causes the most problems in communicating here - allusions to something they are not prepared to identify
We're here to discuss openly, not tp play dodgems - why not just say what you are referring to
I do hope it's the one discussing Trump
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:56 AM

It should not be closed down unless it becomes toxic, Jim. The easiest way to avoid that is to not react to any provocation.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:14 AM

It should not be closed down unless it becomes toxic, Jim
I was being ironic Dave
We seem to have a mod who has closed threads because of members abusing each other, now happy to describe other members as "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"
Beyond me, I'm afraid
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:23 AM

Maybe some of the other Scottish folks here can comment, but what I seem to be seeing is a fairly rapidly expanding tactical consensus. A kind of wartime camaraderie effect. People are aligning with the independence movement, if not actually joining up with the SNP, as what we see down south is a flock of vultures opposed by a flock of headless chickens, neither of which many of us want to have telling us what to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:40 AM

Sorry Jim - Got it now. It was a bit beyond me too :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:33 AM

"It was a bit beyond me too"
We have had similar accusations from two people who have made discussing Israel impossible by screaming "Jew hater" at everybody who dares criticise that State - both avid Trump supporters
That accusation has just been repeated by someone who has serially verbally abused members of this thread and attempted to talk down to them since he joined
Nothing has been done about the behaviour of this trio yet a mod is agreeing with them that we (presumably) are "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"
Sorry - I am obviously missing something
If people are going to make such accusations they should have the good manners to qualify them as far as I can see, this description fits nobody other than the trio who are making the accusation - easily provable by producing examples of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:43 AM

Jim, you're trolling. As in trying to pull in people who are not involved in this thread. Please stick to THIS one, and avoid general bitching about everything/everyone you don't like here. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:59 AM

"Jim, you're trolling."
Sorry Jeri - I'm not
I'm responding to an accusation I believe has no substance
The basis of this thread is how people have behaved elsewhere
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:03 AM

The basis of this thread is that there should be no surprise that the Mudcat has a preponderance of left leaning people with liberal views. How they have behaved elsewhere is only an issue where people seem to be surprised that right wing conservative views are vehemently argued against.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:34 AM

There is no trolling here, not by any definition of trolling that I've ever seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:34 AM

My thoughts exactly
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM

That was to Dave BTW - but it applies to Steve's as well
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM

Joe's comments may painful to hear, but I don't think they are too far from true. Please bear in mind he criticised both sides.

Dave said it was all about tolerance. Well, maybe. But I am reminded of an Alex Glasgow song which was superficially in praise of the English, but was actually a searing attack on a form of hypocrisy that we are all prone to. Amongst other things (warning! upcoming racism, but it is there for a reason), it says the Englishman "tolerates some wogs". Now 'tolerance' is the lowest level you can get to below rejection: it is far short of acceptance, or mutual recognition, or enthusiasm. We tolerate pain, and going to the dentist. We do not 'tolerate' friends and partners - it would be an inadequate description of the relationship. Then, Alex's next word 'some': we don't even tolerate all of them. Just the ones we deem acceptable. Our decision, not theirs. And then the casual and unthinking racism, which is far too common everywhere. Three hammer blows, in three words.

I have always thought it a good working practice to assume that whoever I speak to (or type at) is not stupid. Whatever opinions they have come to, there are experiences or ideas that got them there. They may choose to play games instead of explaining them, which makes a reasonable discussion impossible, but if we and they are prepared to listen and think it can be worth while for both sides of the fence.

So can we be accused of "tolerating some right/left-wingers"? I think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:45 AM

I think so too, DMcG. Toleration is better than out and out rejection though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 10:02 AM

"Please bear in mind he criticised both sides."
Hardly - even handedly Mac

"But then I came to Mudcat, and came across a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist.
They are very self-righteous about their putative right to bully other ways of thinking away.
And I don't like it."

The other bit was little more than lip service
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM

Joe Offer: "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"

Donald Trump: “you don’t give power to an angry left-wing mob” - “The Democrats are radical socialists".

Discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM

To the tune The Church is One Foundation.

We are the rabid liberals
And we should get your vote
If you're not nice and tolerant
We'll punch you up the throat.

We are the rabid liberals
And it would be so sweet
To keep racist, fascist arseholes
Completely off the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:50 AM

People who object to the term "rabid liberals" might want to reconsider their use of the term "right wing morons" if they truly wish to raise the tenor of discourse around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:55 AM

but I was hoping the thread would highlight that the Mudcat, as with most folk clubs, leans somewhat to the left and is liberal in its ideology. As such, it is only to be expected that right wing and conservative views will be frowned upon by the majority.

Well the majority of people using Mudcat will just come in search of songs and tunes and I doubt have any concern about below the line. They will often find what they are looking for using a search engine such as google or the mudcat searches and that will be the end of their vist. They will come from various parts of the world and hold political opinions we know nothing about.

Of the minority of visitors who do contribute to threads, my impression is that it remains a minority of this minority that regularly choose to enter the political topics, although I think political threads are more prominent below the line these days as less else happens…

I’d speculate reasons for what I perceive as low participation amongst this subset include. Not seeing Mudcat as a resource for political discussion (eg. some may well prefer to keep their politics and music separate), not finding much relevant (and much centres around the UK) , feeling that “debates” tend to be circular with no resolution and dislike of the tone of conversation. I’d think it less about other potential contributors not having personal views, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 12:08 PM

In cool and calm tones I remind you that our greatest journalists, generals, cabinet members and historians are in agreement that rash nuclear reactions by one man (who is never wrong and always great) is a real and present danger.
The world will understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 12:56 PM

"rab·id.
.
['rab?d, 'rab?d]

ADJECTIVE

1.having or proceeding from an extreme or fanatical support of or belief in something.

"the show's small but rabid fan base" ·
[more]

synonyms:

extreme · fanatical · overzealous · over-enthusiastic · extremist · violent ·
[more]

2.(of an animal) affected with rabies.

synonyms:

rabies-infected · mad · foaming at the mouth · hydrophobic"

.....................................................
extreme · fanatical · overzealous · over-enthusiastic
mad · foaming at the mouth


Sounds like a factual description of some of the Left ( NOT liberal) posters here.

IMO

But, giving Jim the benefit of the doubt, I will allow that he has probably been vaccinated. So I will NEVER use "Rabid Left"- just "Left-wing morons" from now on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:06 PM

Having been accused of being "a mental midget that talks down to people" then those that dispute my every post must by their own definition be leftwing and by Jim's definition moronical. How else could I talk down to them?
Who am I to argue?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:16 PM

Says Gillymor: ""People who object to the term "rabid liberals" might want to reconsider their use of the term "right wing morons"..."

You raise an interesting point.

How then would you prefer to denote the ignorant idiots - exsuse me, folks - who firmly believe the documented and provable lies, distortions and bullshit that are regularly vomited forth by Trump, his Cabinet, Alex Jones, Breitbart, Sean Hannity, Lindsey Graham, Fox News(sic), Infowars & all the rest and live and revel in a fact-free environment oblivious to reality?

What degree of "toleration" should be shown to racists, fascists, criminal misogynists, white supremacists, Islamaphobes, "victimized"(yeah right) white men and the rest of the clowns who support and enable Trump and the absolute shithole that the Republican Party has devolved into?

I'm sure we could all use some suggestions to factor into our reconsideration.

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:21 PM

Nothing to disagree with there, Jon.

Gillymor and BB. I do not use the term 'right wing moron'. Nor do any number of people of my acquaintance on here. In fact, I don't know who does use it. By far the most insulting term I have seen on here, only used by someone on the right, is 'leftard'. Not only insulting to anyone left of centre but a vile use of a slur on mental disorders. That this is left unpunished is an indication of the liberties that the right will take. Terms like that would result in someone being ejected from most folk clubs and as this is a folk forum I am surprised that they get away with it.

But my premise here is that Mudcat as a folk forum, in general, leans towards the left and liberalism. Maybe that is why the right wing conservatives in here are so vociferous and feel that they must challenge everything?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:35 PM

Mossback,

How then would you prefer to denote the ignorant idiots - excuse me, folks - who firmly believe the documented and provable lies, distortions and bullshit that are regularly vomited forth by the Democrats and anti-fa that live and revel in a fact-free environment oblivious to reality?

What degree of "toleration" should be shown to racists, fascists, criminal misogynists, "victimized" white women and the rest of the clowns who supported and enabled Clinton and the absolute shithole that the Democratic has devolved into?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:47 PM

"a mental midget that talks down to people"
That was when you frst appeared on the scene and you began to talk down to people
We were warned to stop by Joe everybody toned down our behaviour, you chose to persist and you have ever since
You've just compared me to "Hitler" - and now "moronic", yet you accuse us of behaving badly to you
In your defence, with the exception of Joe, all the other complainants have behaved exactly as you have (hough joe's recent comments have been somewhat disappointing)
We all go over the top on occasion - you have ben there from day one - simple matter to check - your serial abusiveness (literally many hundreds of examples) has been archived for all to see

Finished with this as has been suggested many times

For the record - my own personal views are leftist humanitarian - I'm not te anti-semite the complainants have accused me of being (and my offer of a generous donation to any named charity for any example has never been taken up by them
I'm not a red-flag-waving barricade stormer (not since my teens)
I simply believe that the world has become a very shitty place due to the growing gap between the haves and have nots and that State politics has now degenerated to blaming the poor and foreigners for its own failings
If that makes me an intolerant fanatic, fine - there are a lot more like me (I wish !!)
As far as this forum is concerned - I do not believe that it should be allowed as a soapbox for hate and intolerance, as it all-too-often is
It never used toio be - them upstairs rooted out those who used it as such
Now were did all those flowers go ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:52 PM

Check out Jim's post of 05:31 AM. In his attempt to refute Joe Offer he made Joe's case in the same breath.
Re trump, I see him as the greatest threat to our republic since the Civil War and have no respect for his supporters but, as I inferred in my last post, incivility begets incivility, and that's from a (somewhat) reformed nasty person.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 01:58 PM

My posting
""rabid liberals " - is an oxymoron used by right wing morons to defend extremism as far as I'm concern
I have to say I'm surprised at a mod using the term to attack members of this forum - wonder if he'll close the thread down!"

How does that make joe's point please ?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:08 PM

Interesting, Gillymor - but you didn't address either of my questions.

Incidentally, its patently obvious from past performance that members of the Trumpist Cult from the Liar In Chief on down do not need any goading or excuse to be "incivil" (which woefully understates their hateful rhetoric)- it comes to them naturally.

And beardedbruce 10 Oct 18 - 01:35 PM has kindly demonstrated exactly what sort of "folks" I referenced at 01:16 PM. Thank you, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:13 PM

It's simple, "Right Wing Morons" is the kind of term that emanates from the keyboard of "Rabid Liberal".


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:15 PM

Mossback, I'll get back to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:15 PM

"You've just compared me to "Hitler" - and now "moronic",

Oh Dear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:26 PM

Thread #165019   Message #3955854
Posted By: Steve Shaw
10-Oct-18 - 09:34 AM
Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

There is no trolling here, not by any definition of trolling that I've ever seen.



Thread #165019   Message #3955855
Posted By: Jim Carroll
10-Oct-18 - 09:34 AM
Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

My thoughts exactly
Jim



And I think that's also true about the conservatives who have dared to post their thoughts and opinions here.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:38 PM

Right-wing attitudes:

"Big business, especially multinational big business, is all-powerful and democratically unaccountable but can be relied on to uphold the economy. If they exploit resources and pollute the planet, taxpayer money will help to clear up the mess.

Banks must be permitted to engineer ways of making vast profits without supervision, as the profit motive is crucial to the country, and bankers will do best if they are amply rewarded with large bonuses, irrespective of performance. If they fail, taxpayer money is always there to bale them out, and so it should.

The wealthy and powerful are the responsible people in society who know how to run things and should be allowed, unfettered, to do so.

The gap between rich and poor must be maintained at all costs, as otherwise the rich will lose incentive and the poor will have nothing to aspire to.

The poor are poor largely through their own doing, unwilling to work hard and showing lack of enterprise. We can't actually let them starve but they have no right to expect the lifestyle that the more entrepreneurial among us (as well as the deserving inheritors of wealth) enjoy. They've had their chances and it's not our fault they didn't take them.

It is morally justified to have two-tier systems of health provision and education. After all, if you have the money to jump the queue for medical care or grab privileges for your own children, well why shouldn't you? Isn't that 'freedom of choice?'

We will support all efforts to promote patriotism and will strive to keep out foreigners, especially those of strange ethnicity."

                                  ...........................................

If you vote for the Tories or for Trump, or even for Obama or Tony Blair, these are the principles you're voting for. If you understand that point, and vote that way anyway, then right-wing moron is too good an expression for you, though voting for Obama or Blair may let you off the hook if you earnestly believe that you're going for the least of the evils on offer and are trying to keep out the worst of the worst. My grandad, who worked all his life in Salford docks, voted Tory because the man in the pulpit told him to. He didn't understand what he was voting for. I know that because I knew him pretty well (and loved him to bits). During elections, most of these things are hidden from the electorate and it's a damn certainty that most people who vote Tory don't get them. Those people are uninformed but they are not morons.

I've tried to be measured though I'm sure I'm riling some people. No doubt we'll get a definition of "the other side" from someone or other. It's worth remembering though that most people who vote for left-wing parties are voting according to principle, misguided or not, even if that just means that they recognise the above list of points and are voting to oppose them.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:39 PM

Whatever point your post was making is completely lost on me, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 02:40 PM

"And I think that's also true about the conservatives who have dared to post their thoughts and opinions here."
-Joe Offer-

Well, Mr. Offer, if I may be so bold, you think wrong.

A large number of REAL U.S. Conservatives of many years if not decades of standing have come out in opposition to the Trumpist Cult and its lies, excesses, racism and idiocies.

"Conservatives" and "Trumpists" are a difference in KIND, not in degree.

And although I haven't been here all that long, the latter seem to get a great deal more consideration than they deserve on this forum.

IMHO

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM

joe - why is it 'brave' of conservatives who 'dare' to post on here? i'm sure they feel they have a point to make and are happy to make it. if theresa may is pursuing a vigorous hostile attitude towards migrants is she 'brave' to send out her 'go home or face arrest' vans? is d trump brave to praise all the good people among neo-fascists etc etc . i would agree it is good if someone expresses an unusual opinion if they are prepared to argue for it sensibly and to treat people who counter that argument with respect.
but that is not what we are talking about here.

you don't have to be brave to post a view on here - this is a very safe and comfortable forum - where we are all well trained to expect just what we get from each other


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM

"And I think that's also true about the conservatives who have dared to post their thoughts and opinions here."
You sre making the abusers victims Joe
All those who have complained have been excessively abusive to those who disagree with them
I won't name them, (already have done) but I will do so if necessary - and provide examples
When I gathered together about forty examples from one single thread and posted it up you chose to ignore it (I actually did this on four different occasions - I never once had to duplicate an example - and I never got to using more than half of them) - that particular individual continues to be personally abusive while, at the same time, complains about being bullied by lefties
You can see from a few postings up how he responds to being confronted wby his abusive postings - but just in case:
"Oh Dear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Your posting here makes you an abuser, if only an occasional one.

Trolling, as I understand it, is posting (usually short) opinions and refusing to get involved in debate - sort of like graffiti or fly-posting
Not how I regard discussing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:28 PM

Excellent, Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:48 PM

As Jack has said, precious little on here about differences within the current UK: last Saturday's March for Independence (All Under One Banner, so NOT just SNP) was tangibke proof that "there is no appetite for independence" is a total myth! People still arguing over how many actually marched, but take it from me and Jack, who both did, it was MASSIVE! For 2 whole hours, more and more people processed from Edinburgh Castle to Holyrood Park. A huge motorcade of bikers followed, and people were strung out all over Salisbury Crags and Arthur's Seat. And a huge feeling of being joined in a single aim and positivity. Sure, it might be a huge gamble to try to survive outwith the UK, but it's a risk worth taking in the current and foreseeable climate.
Contrast if you will, feelings towards Westminster and Brexit non-happenings. Just total disbelief at how the country is not being run properly. Who for next PM. Theresa May again? No! Jeremy Corbyn? No! Boris Johnson? No! Michael Gove? No! Santa Claus? Maybe.....


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM

I don't understand your point either, Joe. Steve said there was no trolling. Jim agreed. You seem to imply that it meant no trolling from the left. They said no such thing, just that there was no trolling. End of story. You all seem to be in agreement. What am I missing?

I still say that everyone is accepted here. Even their views, and often their abuse, are tolerated. A far cry from "people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here".


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM

I still say that everyone is accepted here. Even their views, and often their abuse, are tolerated. A far cry from "people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here".


Have you ever called for moderators to delete someones posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:12 PM

I don't understand your point either, Joe.

Now, again, I'm a newbie here but certain trends are hard to dismiss.

Mr. Offer's point seems to be that some folks on this forum constitute a protected class and can post whatever garbage they choose to without recrimination, whilst others, not so favored, can be panned or banned for whatever ludicrous infractions can be invented and attributed to them.

Very strange. But an interesting example of cognitive dissonance.

HEIL TRUMP !!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:19 PM

Mr. Offer's point seems to be that some folks on this forum constitute a protected class and can post whatever garbage they choose to without recrimination, whilst others, not so favored, can be panned or banned for whatever ludicrous infractions can be invented and attributed to them.

YUP!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:22 PM

Pete Aberdeen asks: "joe - why is it 'brave' of conservatives who 'dare' to post on here?"

As shown in the next post from Jim Carroll, any conservative who dares to post here, is going to be bludgeoned into a pulp by angry self-righteous liberals (who don't call themselves liberals in Britain). And that same angry mob will scream about how terrible it is that Mudcat allows such horrid people to post. Some of that mob have even threatened legal action through the British authorities for what Mudcat "allows" people to say.

And I shake my head and say, don't these people have a life?

But I have to admit that the conservatives/Trumpists (except for beardedbruce) are usually reasonable nice about what they say, even though I don't like their ideas. But the angry horde on the left are embarrassing, because I more-or-less think I'm on their side.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:28 PM

Mossback says:
    A large number of REAL U.S. Conservatives of many years if not decades of standing have come out in opposition to the Trumpist Cult and its lies, excesses, racism and idiocies.
    "Conservatives" and "Trumpists" are a difference in KIND, not in degree.


Well, if that's the case, there must not be any REAL conservatives on the Republican side of the U.S. Senate, because only Lisa Murkowski voted against Trump's lackey last week.

Almost all the Republicans in both houses of the U.S. Congress have sided again and again with Trump and his racism and nativism and fiscal hooliganism and whatnot.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:37 PM

Dave the Gnome says: I don't understand your point either, Joe. Steve said there was no trolling. Jim agreed. You seem to imply that it meant no trolling from the left. They said no such thing, just that there was no trolling. End of story. You all seem to be in agreement. What am I missing?

My point is that if Jim and Steve say there is no trolling, I agree. But I don't think either present or banished conservative Mudcatters have been trolling, either. They say what they believe, and not for the sake of trolling. Jim and Steve and I may not like their ideas, but I think our conservative counterparts here have been reasonably civil in expressing their thoughts - far more so than the embarrassingly angry mob on the left.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:45 PM

Sorry Joe.

I was taught not to let bullies, even when backed by majority opinion, get away with abuse- I give them back what they give to me.
So that makes me a troll, according to one mod here that stated no posted clicky was valid, or had worthwhile data unless that person agreed with what it presented.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:49 PM

Almost all the Republicans in both houses of the U.S. Congress have sided again and again with Trump and his racism and nativism(sic) and fiscal hooliganism and whatnot.

Absolutely. Mr Offer and you've just validated my point -

They're a gang of pieces of shit that should be expelled from any governing body that concerns itself with dignity, reality and morality.

Now, look at the pantheon of conservatives who are NOT the Trumpist sycophantic ass-licking gutless wonders in the House and Senate who have expressed their negative opinions on this Trumpist horror show and you might actually learn something.

Educate yourself- or simply admit you're a Trumpist cultist.

Either way, fine with me, but be honest.

OK?

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:16 PM

Huh? Well, certainly I'm not a "Trumpist cultist."

And I do have to admit that, despite their majority in both houses, the Republicans have passed very little of the Trump agenda other than confirming his appointments. So perhaps there are some Republicans left with a shred of integrity - but most of those are leaving Congress and retiring this year.

So, what's your point, Bill?




But then I wonder again about those on the left at Mudcat. I thought people on the left were supposed to be advocates for immigrants and refugees, for the poor and homeless, and for workers. Do leftists at Mudcat actually do any of that advocacy? Do they spend time with immigrants and the poor? Or do they just spend their time on the Internet, talking about how horrible those on the right are?Maybe I'm hopelessly idealistic, but I think that people on the left should actually be working for peace and human rights, not just bludgeoning right-wingers.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:49 PM

Per Mr. Offer: So, what's your point, Bill?

The point is that you are in fact a Trump cultist if you are willing to overlook and condone the utter bullshit the Trumpists spew.

This is not a contest between "liberal" and "conservative"
but a the difference between between reality and utter fantasy.

If you cannot see this, you have apparently gone over heart & soul to the Trumpist fantasists.

God help AmeriKKKa.

Bil

Grounded in reality


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:12 PM

Mossback, Joe is a unique mix of opinions like letting bear claw national monument get privatized and supporting civil conservatives all the while condemning the massive hoardes of rebellious left wing mobs (which are mostly women).

But he recognizes and respects diversity. Do not envy his jobs. They are hard and often thankless.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:16 PM

My God, what a mire this conversation has gotten itself into (sorry, Brits - I love to "go Yankee" every now and again).

Let's try to wash away the mud and clear up one or two things.

First, Joe and especially Jeri (why ARE you a mod, Jeri?), a troll is a person who posts provocatively with the SOLE PURPOSE of provoking an emotional and inflamed response. That person has no interest whatsoever in whatever conversation is going on. Now it's perfectly possible to post extremely provocatively, even swearily (not my style, but respectfully noted as the style of Jeri and, occasionally, Joe) with the intention of clearing things up/showing up hypocrites/exposing double standards/fearlessly pointing to bigotry (and get a dictionary for that one, Joe)/ridiculing people who thoroughly deserve to be ridiculed, quite likely because they themselves have strayed into trolldom, etcetera.

If you want an example of archetypal trolling, there is a fellow here, a close friend of Jeri and a man who Joe sympathises with (don't deny it, guys, I have the PMs), who, in any of those God-forsaken Israel threads, calls Jim and me "Jew-haters" at the drop of a hat. I read with amusement the attempted excoriation of us "rabid liberals" here, but I haven't read a single peep about this chap from this fellow's moderatorial supporters here. Not a bloody peep.

Second, and probably more than enough for now, we have a fellow here who posts far-right rhetoric without any supporting argument. And he's another good mate of yours, Joe. Good to see you having a go at him at long last, but I'm sure you and he will make it up. He's Bruce, to avoid confusion. He's as rabidly right-wing (and probably proud of it) as anyone who posts here and he couldn't actually argue his way out of a paper bag. But he's such a luvly feller in real life, isn't he, Joe? I know, because you told me so, remember?    Really???


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM

Jim Carroll's insistence on his lack of antisemitism goes with him even into threads that are not about that subject at all.

He literally cannot help himself.

He reminds me of Dolph Lundgren in the movie "I Come In Peace" where he, big surprise, plays a violent alien who says "I come in peace" every time he wastes someone.
"For the record, Jim, that's not a call you get to make. Those who are capable of judgment get to make it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:37 PM

" a fellow here who posts far-right rhetoric without any supporting argument"


Actually, you are a damned liar.


I OFTEN post the source for my factual statements, and I have as much of a right to MY opinions as you do to your opinions. I will challenge you on most of your posts, that give opinion but you claim as fact. As your previous post, they are your opinion, and often have no relation to reality.

Now, care to show SOME bit of non-bigotry, and talk about the number of fellows here who post far-left rhetoric without any supporting argument?




Got to bet back to building the next telecommunications Geosync for Western Europe and North Africa.

What are YOU doing, Mr. Shaw, to help mankind?


:


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:55 AM

But you don't take on arguments. You serially miss the point in your messianic haste to get on your high horse. And you really MUST be proud of your right-wing pretensions. You're utterly shameless. Good luck with your geosync. Let's hope it keeps you fully occupied for as long as possible.

I've never seen a single antisemitic remark made by anyone on this forum, robomatic. And if anyone wishes to react to that with the usual string of faux-examples, please don't do it here. Start a new thread and I'll see you there. It's such an easy cheap shot and it's pretty disreputable unless you have explicit evidence, and it's very noticeable that those mods who get so irritated with people "attacking conservatism" are so willing to allow these far worse slurs to stand. Please stop using the ploy to stymie discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 03:56 AM

but I think our conservative counterparts here have been reasonably civil in expressing their thoughts - far more so than the embarrassingly angry mob on the left.

Good grief, Joe. Have you actually read any of the political threads? Jim makes the point that he has posted massive lists of insults and abuse from one person in particular but a number of others are guilty of the same! As to...

Do leftists at Mudcat actually do any of that advocacy? Do they spend time with immigrants and the poor?

For me, yes and yes. Do those on the right? Why single out only those on the left as armchair warriors? You say your are impartial in all this but that is looking increasingly unlikely :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 04:30 AM

joe, i really do make a serious attempt on here to be respectful, to not resort to slagging anyone off - and try to imagine i am having an interesting conversation with a few people in the pub. i don't feel i am part of an 'angry horde' nor am i 'rabid' - and certainly not a liberal. (broadly a peace and love socialist type) i do get very bored and irritated with the way threads go sometimes and 'disappear' for a while - but i'm sort of glad that we still bicker on with the occasional interesting ideas.

i'm currently working supporting disabled people in fairly . rural north west england, where i am a union rep for 400+ staff, with one other rep. He, like most other people i work with who have an interest in politics is a UKIP type conspiray theorist who prefers trump to obama and is very keen on brexit ('sovereignty!) he is also a good friend. currently we have agreed to not talk about 'all that' because we just get angry about it but we do get on, support each other and try to support our members effectively. i have to be careful what i say every day as to be eg anti-racist or even pro my union is not as comfortable at work as it is on this form - but of course i struggle to keep quiet about my views.

i have rejoined the labour to support a more left of centre manifesto. this could my last chance to see a bit of socialism in government and i'm working towards this in my local branch and my union.

before this job i worked for a few years in a homeless hostel and will always have an interest in this. 4 people i knew died. every one i worked with was a victim of various forms of child abuse. to me this is the root of many - if not most of the problems we have in society. the fact that these crimes are (or were) often hidden or covertly sanctioned by religious organisations makes me more of an atheist too.

i guess i'm fairly typical of people on here and i'm sorry to bore you but i did find it quite annoying (and lazy) to characterise all us lefties as 'rabid' - everyone has a story and surely there are times for some appropriate anger (expressed with civility!)   

You can't accuse us all of being an 'embarrassingly angry mob' -

Could do better (yes, i'm also an ex-teacher)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 04:47 AM

by accident - while replying to insults from a mod - i actually seem to have addressed the title of this thread. staying on topic by mistake! actually, i'm usually more interested in the diverting by ways of a bit of thread drift......


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 04:51 AM

Well said again, Pete. That is possibly more along the lines I was getting at. There is no 'angry mob' as you say but purely on the basis that we are a folk music forum, the membership is more likely to be left wing and liberal (in the sense of easy going rather than political). Therefore it makes sense that right wing or conservative (again meaning averse to change rather than Tory) views may get a harder time.

It is nothing to do with not accepting people as was originally stated (people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here) but being averse to those views and not letting them by without serious criticism. Unfortunately the right, led by Trump, now see criticism as something to be mocked and rejected out of hand and that is filtering through to here.

In my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:03 AM

"Do they spend time with immigrants and the poor?"
Yes-yes-yes, but beside the point anyway
The fact some people don't come into contact with people in need doesn't mean that they don't exist
This is typical "out of sight, out of mind" rightism
I grew up in a deprived area in the North of England and was forced to leave home to leave home to find work - many of my friends and family weren't lucky enough to be able to and were forced to endure the prevailing conditions (particularly permanent high unemployment) - those still living are still there
Fighting poverty and injustice is not necessarily about working with the poor, which is basically damage repair - it is about working for a society that ends poverty

"He literally cannot help himself."
When people like Joe who I respect(ed) make he suggestion, no I most certainly can't - fighting anti-semitism was part of my family history before was born
Family members too to the Liverpool streets to oppose he Blackshirts - my grandmother was arrested for throwing the stone which hit Moseley
When Jewish neighbours told them what was happening in "the new Germany that would roll back the creeping menace of Bolshevism" (as the Western leaders described Nazism), my father volunteered to fight in Spain, was wounded and captured and returned to find he had been given an MI5 record as a "premature anti-fascist"
At teh behest of MI5, he was blacklisted from his work and had to leave home to feed his family
Joe's church excommunicated him from his religion (this was, of course, before "Hitler's Pope" co-operated with the Nazis, of course)
When I left home, I worked with mainly left-wing Jews, Holocaust survivors included, many of whom became close fre0nds
It was one of the survivors of the camps who told me "never again, not to anybody"
I'm proud of my family's involvement in the fight against bigotry and race hatred, and I look back with fondness, and a degree of pride at my youth spent with North of England progressive Jews

It doesn't bother me when people like Bruce or Bobad call me an anti semite for criticising Israel - they are anti semitic by definition for associating the Jewish People with the policies of the Israeli regime anyway
When Joe makes the accusation, as he did not so long ago, it bothers me that some of the terrible two's slime might have rubbed off on him

Trumpites, by supporting an antisemitic racists, have lost any right to accuse anybody of antisemitism - as have Tories who remain silent when their Prime Minister refuses to condemn Anti Semitic fascist leasers in the U.N.
THese people are opening the door to the current possible rise in the politics that sent six million Jews (and millions more not so well-remembered) to their deaths
THese people need to clear out their own house before pointing their fingers
TRUMP'S TRIUMPHS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM

MI5 would not have used the term "premature anti-fascist" - that label was used against the International Brigades by Communists when the Hitler-Stalin pact was still in force. MI5 would just have labelled them as Communists or Communist sympathizers.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:05 AM

The term became popularly used regarding those who were penalised for fighting in Spain Jack - maybe it's picked up from the US press
It was a badge he wore with pride all his life
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:20 AM

Therapists are saying they have never heard so much distress over politics before. The culture and less than civil wars have been fulminating for decades.

So lets fix it;

Allow Independants to vote in primaries, get rid of super delegates, ban the electoral college (their degrees are worth anything), Use GPS grids instead of gerrymandering, pass a hundred other centrist rules of fairness. Make voting mandatory to keep a drivers license or pay fines, stiffen voter suppression punishments etc. etc.

When we can see a fair inclusive process and identify who we all are in a clear democratic and religious way we will trust a democracy that really recognizes everyone without trickery.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:19 AM

The thing is its easy to be tolerant of people you have no contact with.

Mind you, that hasn't helped me tolerate the royal family.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM

I suggest Jim Carrol resist his accusatory instincts and write a Democratic platform with the better ideas presented here (like mine ;^/)
I bet he can do the best job but maybe not as good as Thomas Jefferson.

Where you will have to suck it up is supporting 'the business of America is still business'. As for 'we the people' you will do great.


The definitions of certain words will need asterisks to indicate they are Webster unspun meanings like tolerance, empathy and social justice


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:57 AM

For Mr. Offer's benefit:

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/usa-today-issues-pathetic-defense-publishing-trumps-op-ed-riddled-lies

Rather like the pathetic defense of my buddy Bruce's BS here, eh?

https://www.alternet.org/americans-outraged-after-usa-today-publishes-trump-op-ed-filled-lies-and-dangerous-rhetoric

This is about Trumpism- not "conservatism".


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:08 AM

I will write the reasonable unbiased centrist Republican Platform.
circa Reagan.


There is still no action to ban bumpstocks. Centrist Republicans would change that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:56 AM

The real problem with the Republican party seems to be that they spend such a lot on their iffy campaigns (s0me say involving the Russians) - they can't really afford to have policies.

All the incoming President really knows is that he's in hock to the armaments industry. So theres probably going to be a war at the first opportunity with loads of contracts going to the companies that paid for their campaign.

Obviously all hopes for decency from political parties are doomed to disappointment. I feel the same about the party in England I have voted for all my life. I really couldn't say with any certainty what the leader actually thinks about any number of topics. The opposition party is a many headed monster - no one knows which faction has the final say - but their financial backing comes from the great financial institutions. So you DO know that they'll shit on the poor.

Its like voting for a vacuum.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:22 AM

I know this may be controversial but can those of a conservative (with a c of either case) nature accept that if their views are likely to clash with the general demeanour of the majority, then they are likely to create a conflict? I am not asking anyone not to do it, just to accept that their views may be at odds with most and that they are not likely to change anyone's minds. "
Neither are those on the left likely to change anyones minds, these stupid threads[ like this one] achieve nothing other than bringing mudcat into disrepute.
I happen to be on the left , i have no problem with right wing opinions being stated, i watch in dismay as people who i share political views with behave in a puerile and childish manner, it tends [imo] to discredit their arguments, people on this forum who indulge in this childish behaviour about politics need to exrcise slf discipline ,the moderators are volunteers, i am surprised the re is anyone who still wants to VOLUNTEER to be a moderator on this forum,


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Acorn4
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 12:09 PM

Apparently out of nine major armaments producers in the US eight supported Hilary Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 12:35 PM

The truly frustrating thing about it is you can say Trump lied about something, and some here will say it's biased. You can provide evidence, and those people will say it's "fake news" because you are/it is biased. The only fake shit they'll accept is what people on their side create.

It won't turn around until people decide they'd rather be skeptical and smart than "loyal" and stupid.

...AND they quit basing whether they trust the truth of a thing based on who's saying it.

It's so frustrating, but I realize I can't change anything, and these idiots live on my planet. I think it will eventually work itself out, unless we manage to kill the planet by stupidity first.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 12:53 PM

It is well to remember that there are opinions based on fact, and opinions based on lies and bullshit.
The latter are not entitled to notice, never mind respect.

I suppose that one has a "right" to be an utter asshole- but asshole he/she remains.


I am surprised there is anyone who still wants to VOLUNTEER to be a moderator on this forum

Are you as surprised that there are evidently so-called "moderators" protecting and enabling individuals who post only lies, bullshit & conspiracy theories?

centrist Republican Platform

Last one of those was Teddy Roosevelt's as a candidate for the Bull Moose Party.

There are no longer any such things as moderate Republicans - they're a' deid!

And extinction is forever.

out of nine major armaments producers in the US eight supported Hilary Clinton.

Source? Verification? Facts? Context? or just more Trumpist Cult bullshit?

And WTF has that to do with this thread?




You can provide evidence, and those people will say it's "fake news"

PS: So Ms. Jeri, in that case why do you defend and support Bobad, Bearded Bruce, et. al in posting and disbursing bullshit??


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 02:38 PM

these stupid threads[ like this one] achieve nothing other than bringing mudcat into disrepute.

Dick, that poses the question of why you chose to add to it? You may consider it stupid but 200+ posts say it is of interest to some.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 02:51 PM

"Are you as surprised that there are evidently so-called "moderators""
A little unfair, I think
There are a lot of posts to this forum and we can all be pains in the arseums when we (don't) put our minds to it - I'd rather feed the chimps at Phoenix Park
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 05:42 PM

A little unfair, I think

Hullo, Jim - please read the entire sentence.

With my admittedly limited experience here, it seems that most of the moderators do an excellent job. There are also apparently one or two who persist in giving lying morons cover - which I simply do not understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:22 PM

I support the moderators on this forum. It's a lively and active forum with a feisty below-the-line section. And, as far as I can see, there are just three active mods (I'm up for being disabused on that). Broad-brush attacks on mods are unacceptable and I don't blame them for shutting down threads if that happens. But I'd just add this: when the Gaughan Forum was in its heyday, sadly passed, Molly the mod (and the only mod) was a woman you did NOT bloody argue with. Yes she'd let things ride for a bit, but once the bit was between her teeth you did NOT answer back. A bollocking from Molly was a BOLLOCKING, end of, and I've been on the receiving end more than once. But if Molly was posting as a mod she would always say "this is Molly with her mod hat on..." Otherwise she was an ordinary member of the forum, like everybody else, a damned spiky and funny one at that. We could do with a bit more of that here. It's great to see Jeri (despite her serial negativity) and Joe posting as ordinary forum members, and Maggie does a brilliant job, mostly under the radar. But there's that uneasy feeling, especially with Joe, that he can kind of say daft things just as much as the rest of us can, yet be rather manipulative apropos of "what's allowed" here. Address that, Joe!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:37 PM

When the thread drifts into discussing Mudcat moderation and moderators you know what happens. Just sayin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:44 PM

I know. But on this occasion, surely you can allow yourself for a minute to wallow quietly in unalloyed praise, Maggie? :-)

Joking, of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 06:58 PM

When it wanders into discussing other members, period, it's a problem, and a precursor to you-know-what. But we can get back to the subject, because we're nice people who have a lot of interesting things to say. (Just trying not to be serially negative.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 07:12 PM

I love you, Jeri, and you know it... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 07:51 PM

Steve, I thought it was our secret.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:36 PM

From "In Fact," an American Marxist newsletter (June 14, 1943, p.1):

"He is a very dangerous sort of soldier—a 'premature anti-Fascist,' as one official of the [U.S.] War Dep't recently stated. It wasn't enough that Anthony DeMaio, who was confined to a labor unit because he had been a fighter against Fascism in Spain, was lugging beef in a cold storage warehouse here at Camp Grant...."

The phrase seems to have become relatively common only after the war (i.e., in the McCarthy Era).


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:21 PM

Steve Shaw says: But there's that uneasy feeling, especially with Joe, that he can kind of say daft things just as much as the rest of us can, yet be rather manipulative apropos of "what's allowed" here. Address that, Joe!

I do very little in the way of editing for moderation in the non-music (BS) forum, and that's intentional. I usually restrict myself to "no-brainer" editing in the BS forum, things like deleting Spam and duplicate messages, and correcting typos like one Steve pointed out in one of his posts today. I don't really believe in deleting posts for "disciplinary" reasons - I feel that once the damage is done, it's done; although there some situations where I do believe a post should be deleted. I deleted a bunch of political posts from the "Best Moments" thread last week because they were posted after I posted notice that I wasn't going to allow any more political posts in that thread because they weren't getting us anywhere - and that was in the music forum.

I do believe in fairness, and that everybody should be free to express his/her opinion. I think that there are certain Mudcatters who have bullied their way into control of the BS Forum, and that they do their best to bully right-wing posters into silence. And rather than respond to those right-wing posters with facts and logic, they go on endlessly with their accusations and name-calling and other combative tactics. And I hate that, and I actively participate in the BS forum discussions in my attempt to challenge that sort of mean, bullying conduct. I speak my opposition to that conduct very forcefully - but I use my voice, not my edit button, to make my point. Steve Shaw calls that "manipulative," and I can't quite see how he can defend that accusation. In fact, I think he should be ashamed of having made such an implication without giving any facts to back it up.

I get it that the bullies don't like my opposition to their control of the forum, and they make airheaded accusations about my "overstepping authority" or being "manipulative." But I don't use authority or manipulation to express or enforce my opposition. I use facts and logic, and language. You bullying folks should try that sometime. It's a novel concept.

For 21 years, it has been my practice to explain any action I have taken that has any sort of "disciplinary" implication. If I close a thread, I close it with an explanatory note. Some moderators and Mudcatters haven't liked my explanatory notes, but that's what I believe in doing. If I delete a message, I generally tell the poster privately why I've done it. But I rarely delete messages or close threads, other than for technical reasons. I just don't believe in it, and I'd rather try logic instead of power.

So, Mr. Shaw, I think you owe me an apology or a factual defense of your accusations.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:37 PM

Now, Joe, I've declared my undying love for Jeri and SRS, yet you say I'm a bully because I go for the jugular of right-wingers! Would it help if I told you that I love you too, Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:39 PM

Mossback says: Are you as surprised that there are evidently so-called "moderators" protecting and enabling individuals who post only lies, bullshit & conspiracy theories?

It is my opinion that the function of moderators here is to keep the peace, not to censor objectionable content. I've been attacked for that philosophy many times over the years, but I still contend that my philosophy is correct. I have sometimes accused other moderators of deleting messages because of their political content, and they have sometimes disagreed with me on that. Still and all, I think that people should be allowed to say what they think - and then others should be free to attempt to refute those opinions with facts and logic. Yes, we have people on both the left and the right who post only "Lies, bullshit & conspiracy theories" - and I have often posted facts and logic to oppose them. But I object to opposing them with any more coercive tactics, like censorship and bullying.

Other opinions are possible, but that's the opinion I've stuck with for 21 years. If you think there's something wrong with my holding that opinion, Mossback, then I'd have to say that would cause me to have a negative opinion of you. Or that you're full of shit, one of the two....

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:40 PM

Don't tell them about our bromance, Steve. They'd never believe it...


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 09:49 PM

You got a bit defensive there, Joe. I meant what I said about supporting the mods. We are all human beings and every one of us is capable of getting things wrong. But bully I am not. Wrong-headed on many occasions I may well be. But I'm always up for a good hearty squabble, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:05 PM

But Steve, you seem to think there's something immoral about my opposing you.....

The bullying takes place. After a BS thread hits 100 posts, there's rarely anyone left but the Usual Suspects. Ever wonder why that happens?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:08 PM

It appears I took Joe's bears ears treatise backwards because I thought he was opposing what I wrote. Joe sometimes writes more voluminously than Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:18 AM

I did not intend this thread to be a platform to bash the mods. I do not do it and request that others refrain from doing so. They are doing a tough job and give up their time for free. If you have any gripes with them, take it up on a PM.

This thread, as I keep repeating, should be a discussion on why it is no surprise that right wing views so often cause such controversy here. I do not think it is surprising. Maybe others do.

On a sub topic that seems to have arisen, I do not think there is any bullying occurring either. The best definition I have seen, from the National Centre Against Bullying in Australia, is

The definition of bullying is when an individual or a group of people with more power, repeatedly and intentionally cause hurt or harm to another person or group of people who feel helpless to respond. Bullying can continue over time, is often hidden from adults, and will probably continue if no action is taken.

There is no group of people with more power here (apart from the mods and they do not bully anyone!) and everyone is given the opportunity to respond from a completely safe place.

I think the term 'bullying' is overused, just as is the term 'troll'. Argument, no matter how robust, is neither bullying nor trolling. To apply those terms when they are not relevant lessens the effect of anti-bullying everywhere. In my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:44 AM

It really is time people defined what they mean by "bullying"
As far as I'm concerned, it means permanent personal insulting and attempting to talk down those you disagree with - that only happens with a few people
Nott so long ago, the worst of them disappeared (presumably banned and not taken for a long drive into the woods) - his protége remains.
It is the bullies who complain the loudest about being bullied - isn't that always the case?
There's nothing wrong with being 'opposed' - even vehemently at times - you learn nothing from watching nodding dogs

Joe hasn't 'defined' what he mans by 'bullying' and he has yet to respond to those of us who have
He hasn't specified what he means by "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"
I see no evidence of this here

I consider the term "rabid liberal" an oxymoron - a contradiction in terms - it has become very much an American habit to deliberately re-invent the language to excuse the inexcusable - £friendly fire" for killing anybody who happens to be there; collateral damage for slaughtering the innocent; extraordinary rendition fo illegal abduction and torture; waterboarding, near drowning as torture.
I love our language and have been appalled to hear it regularly it, unconsciously 'Estuaryised' in Britain      
To see it deliberately used as a political weapon out Orwells Orwell's "Newspeak"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:46 AM

Cross posted there Dave
Sorry
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:00 AM

No probs, Jim. I would disagree with your definition of bullying as well though. The key is bullying is inevitably by those who have, or want, power over others. We do not have any power over anyone here, nor do they over us.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:44 AM

What's that supposed to mean, I seem to think there's something immoral? Flippin 'eck!

Agreed, Dave. The mods have a job to do, they don't get paid and they can't be expected to be here 24/7. My latest ploy is to tell them I love them. They like it so much that it keeps threads open so that there'll be a chance I'll say it again... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:47 AM

I seem to think there is something immortal...


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:32 AM

"The key is bullying is inevitably by those who have, or want, power over others"
Want - yes
It's the inability to get it that causes the problem
It's like talking down to people - seldom if ever done by those who are intelligent enough not to need to - a sign of insecurity rather than self-confidence
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:33 AM

Meant to add - as we well know from Mudcat displays
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:22 AM

" nor do they over us."
They have no power over us, true, but they have other powers - to get threads closed when things are not going their way is a favourite
One individual regularly adopts the 'stonewalling" technique - make a statement; ignore all arguments; wait a bit; make the same statement; ignore all argument; claim nobody has challenged what he said; asks for it to be repeated; ignore repeats..... and so ad-infinitum
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:55 AM

It doesn't matter, Jim. Honestly. If two arguments are put forward, people will decide which has more merit. Most people have sense enough to recognise the type of tactic you describe and have an aversion to the type of insults and abuse you have mentioned previously. These tactics do not work and responding to them only encourages more of the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

The best President deal maker: James Monroe Louisiana Purchase
The best Stable genius President: Thomas Jefferson
The best Builder President: FDR
The best economy president: Reagan
The best showman president: Kennedy
The best self claimed President: Trump
The biggest liar: ???

Push back on historic lies for own sake


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:27 AM

No reaction at all is best, Jim, and will help to keep the thread alive. To misquote US currency, In Mod We Trust :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:33 AM

You're correct, Dave. I started a thread yesterday, which was deleted overnight, in which I said exactly the same thing, and specifically addressed that to Jim. If people refuse to be provoked, and don't respond to provocation, it will very quickly become apparent who the problem posters are.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:06 AM

Not only don't respond, don't read the bloody thing in the first place is my policy these days. There aren't enough hours in the day to read twaddle. Just see who's posted it and scroll forward to the next sensible chap or chapess in the list...


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM

Who would you prefer posting, Bruce or Kanye West?
'They' sometimes say the devil you have is better than the devil you may get.
You guys get down in the weeds so deep you are arguing about the rhizomes in the roots. Oh, I do that too? nevermind.

Imagine how different the rhetoric would be if you had to wait 24 hours before posting to a new subject. Mo more snap judgments no more automatic knee jerk anger. Reading more and posting less just doesn't give you that instant gratification.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:46 AM

Who would you prefer posting, Bruce or Kanye West?

I read Batman into there somewhere and it took me a few minutes to work out why. See if you can do it. No prizes I'm afraid but kudos to who gets it right first :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM

You want to know why threads get closed?

What is this thread about (based on the posts of people other than Donuel)?

If you didn't read the title, what would you think?

End of off-topic stuff from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:56 AM

Not sure if that was for me, Jeri. Apologies if it was my off topic post that caused it but I thought it was time for a little light relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:08 AM

Its a quantum universe Jeri and I'm goin with the flow.
I think my blood sugar is making everything look a bit too ridiculous lately.

BS is the home of the 'complisult' and insulpliments ;^/

Happy October surprise, whatever it is.

10-4


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Acorn4
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:18 AM

All this is fed by the low state to which our mainstream media has sunk.


After the end of the Great War people discovered that the stories about atrocities committed by German soldiers were either untrue or grossly exaggerated.

When stories started coming out of Germany in the 1930s about people being murdered and herded into camps people started saying "we've heard all this before".

I don't just refer to the obvious culprits like "The Sun" and "The Daily Mail" - all the national dailies distort the truth or are selective in their stories. They all have agendas of some kind usually defined by the people who own them- "The Guardian" is one of the worst culprits - and as for BBC News - an oxymoron.

Hence people are given a wide choice in what to believe and can choose their own "facts".

I refuse to read any of the national dailies on the grounds that if someone had consistently lied to me or tried to manipulate over a number of years I wouldn't want to know them.

Couple of lighthearted looks at intolerance:-

Jeremy Taylor:"Liberal Man"

and a bit of a caution against the "handbags at 50 paces" here:-


Jonathan Pie


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:35 AM

"Imagine how different the rhetoric would be if you had to wait 24 hours before posting to a new subject. Mo more snap judgments no more automatic knee jerk anger. Reading more and posting less just doesn't give you that instant gratification."

24 hours would kill the forum, but a couple of hours before a post becoming active probably has a lot going for it. A chance to reflect,censor, or delete can only be a positive.
But would those guilty of knee jerks avail themselves of such a facility?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 11:00 AM

I think you could well be right Acorn4. I stopped reading the papers years ago and now got to various sources for my news. I must disagree about the Guardian and the Beeb though. I find them less biased than most and they do present a broader picture. But, yes, always check the sources!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Acorn4
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 11:07 AM

Channnel 4 seems to be better than the main news.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 11:32 AM

I'm more inclineded to trust Channel 4, but I believe the BBC is the official propaganda mouthpiece of the Conservative & Unionist Party. (Sorry Dave!).


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 11:38 AM

I would consider one of the basic problems here on Mudcat is that while the some American posters consider themselves to be quite "liberal" when by UK standards they are quite "right wing".

Conversely some UK posters who consider themselves to be quite "liberal" are perceived to be quite "left wing" by American standards.

How this disparity in perception is overcome I know not.

Having said that I'll get me coat ..........


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM

And therefore, the proper response should be to present ideas, with facts to back them up, and then to defend or refute those ideas with logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:36 PM

No apology needed, BWM. Most people can disagree without rancour or bearing grudges.

Raggy, you could well be right. I dunno what to do about it either. Anyone got any ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:44 PM

I would agree wholeheartedly, Joe, if this were a debating forum with formal rules. Yes, put up the idea. Back it up. Other people can refute it and then you get one chance to argue against them. That doesn't happen here though does it. People argue ad infinitum until someone gets sick of it. That is where your proposal fails. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:58 PM

The normal rules of debate don't apply here. We have one poster whose main tactic is to insult and abuse, and another who sets traps, constantly asking others to state their position but never stating his own. No debating society worth the name would allow them to behave in that way - provocation, pure and simple. Shameful.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Acorn4
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 01:19 PM

The point about logic is a good one.

I still work part time as an exam invigilator and last week I was having to scribe for a student with a broken arms who would dictate me his answers and I would write them down.

He had good vocabulary and could write good sentences but his answers all didn't seem to follow logical rules and he actually dictated two sentences which said exactly the same thing in different words.

A strong case for introducing it on the curriculum as a core subject?


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 01:39 PM

I think you have it nailed Backwoodsman. However the second poster I think you refer to seems to be teflon coated.

However I think that poster has been named and shamed for having threads closed and continues to do so but also continues (to my mind) to "get away with it"

There may be a number of reasons for this, I have my own theories, which I am sure would be rejected by those who make those decisions.

I suspect I may be censored for this.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 01:53 PM

Sorry chaps but although posters do play a great part in what I am getting at, in that many seem surprised when their views are robustly refuted, I don't think it does any good to get personal.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 02:24 PM

The normal rules of debate don't apply here. We have one poster whose main tactic is to insult and abuse. You forgot to add he deliberately misinterprets anything said to adds a little je ne sais quoi to his posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:34 PM

Thread #165019   Message #3956308
Posted By: Dave the Gnome
12-Oct-18 - 12:44 PM
Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

I would agree wholeheartedly, Joe, if this were a debating forum with formal rules. Yes, put up the idea. Back it up. Other people can refute it and then you get one chance to argue against them. That doesn't happen here though does it. People argue ad infinitum until someone gets sick of it. That is where your proposal fails. Sorry.



Yeah, Dave, I get it. The "usual suspects" who have control of the BS Forum set the rules, and they don't want civil debate. They like the shit they've mired us in.

Well, I don't like it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:52 PM

Hmmm ........ Sorry Joe, I do not consider that response to be rational or reasonable.

I would go further and suggest that is a reply that I would expect from someone I perceive as being very conservative. I know you claim you are not.

(Please see my previous post on that subject)

If posters on the "other" side of any discussion posted rational, reasonable and responsible posts I am sure they would receive the same in return.

However we are inundated with blogs from a source that most people consider to be a right wing agitator, posts which echo the "views" of our right wing press and often downright lies and distortions.

I will go further again and state that when the frailties of those arguments are exposed the poster will twist, turn, prevaricate, deny and move the ******** goalposts so often you end up doubting your own sanity.

I know you are aware of this as you have commented on it yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:01 PM

This doesn't seem like it's ever going to get back on topic, because it's an opportunity to bitch.

Personal opinion: Max should just get rid of BS for a month or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:26 PM

It seems to me that two mods here revel in this stuff, despite their protestations. They want us Brits to be as horrid as possible. It's depressing.

Make me a mod and I'll clean this bloody place up within 24 hours.

Only joking.

Ish.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 04:41 PM

You made me laugh Steve.
My position is this, I am for Federalism but I wish we the people were trusted with discoveries.
I am a chicken shit male feminist. I talk big but do nothing substantial to help the cause.
I knew union songs as a kid but I don't sing now.
I used to think "what if the radical right got everything they ever wanted".
Now that they have, I wish I never would have asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:00 PM

However we are inundated with blogs from a source that most people consider to be a right wing agitator, posts which echo the "views" of our right wing press and often downright lies and distortions.

Yet no one has ever managed to find a flaw in his factual content. That is why the cabal attack the poster, not the post. Perhaps those most vociferous in attacking this "rightwing agitator" would care to give a few examples of "his downright lies and distortions." I await this with interest. Please provide the who,what,why,when and where to put some substance to you allegations.

These are the same people that when the factual content of a post is such that they cannot rebut it or deny it, then they turn to ridicule and insult. I could attach huge lists to demonstrate this behaviour but even then they would argue.

Furthermore they then have the temerity to complain when a sturdy response is generated to counter their behaviour.

I suggest a study of Matthew 7:5


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:03 PM

God help us.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:16 PM

Point taken, Joe, but if you give carte blanche to everyone then some are going to abuse that. The options then are to remove the right to post to those abusing that right or to live with it. We know the former can be effective as we have seen it in action with a number of 'problem' posters. We have also seen that when they are let back in that some people cannot help but to continue their serial abuse.

I don't know what to suggest. I can't help you, sorry. But we are drifting from the thread again and discussing moderation policy. If you are happy to let that continue, please feel free.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:21 PM

Raggytash Date: 12 Oct 18 - 01:39 PM

Hear Hear ! Got it in one.

Personal opinion: Max should just get rid of BS for a month or two.

Wouldn't it be logical, easier and more useful to get rid of the two obnoxious bullshit-posting arseholes in question, Jeri? Just askin'...... love you too.

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:46 PM

Trouble is, Bill, that means someone has to make a judgement as to who the obnoxious bullshit posting arseholes are. Different people will have different views on that. As I said before, the mods have a tough job and do it for free. It is unfair to expect them to 'take sides'. Even if it seems blatantly obvious who is causing the trouble!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:57 PM

Yeah, and Dave the Gnome is on the top of MY list. Good thing I don't believe in suppressing objectionable people, huh, Dave?
All I do is disagree with them.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:02 PM

Hullo, Dave, Newbie here-

I DON'T expect them to take sides -mjust to apply the rules even-handedly & without coddling their particular pets. That's hardly too much to ask, is it??

As for obnoxious bullshit, in this Internet age with all the reputable sites available to identify lies & untruths, it takes almost no time to identift toxic bullshit and the regular sources thereof - Breitbart et.al. - identifying those who post the obniouxios bullshit over and over should be relatively easy.

I don't expect the Mods to vet each and every post, but if it quacks like InfoWars, or it walks like Alex jones, or if it spews like Donald Trump.....

Be well,

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:02 PM

Please stop being ridiculous, Joe. You won't like reading this back in the morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:05 PM

ANYWAY.

By British standards, I'd say that most UK below-the-line frequent posters are on the left of politics. Before those two recent expulsions from the forum, the balance twixt left and right was much closer. I haven't noticed any revolutionary commies among us Brits (I was one for a short time in me misspent yoof, but, well, y'know, getting wed, kids, mortgage, foreign hols and all that...). There are two people among us Brits who are decidedly far-right, and, by coincidence or not, they are by far the two most objectionable Brits here in m'humble. As for you merkins, you all seem pretty united against Trumpery but you are mostly not of the left in any UK sense of the word. This end, we've regarded the likes of Hillary, Gore, Obama and Bill Clinton very much as we regard our Tories on the spectrum, though comparisons are a bit invidious as your domestic political context is nothing like ours. With one or two exceptions, calling most American posters here right-wing seems a bit weird. Right-wingers have no conscience, but conscience plays a big part with regard to most of the American posters here. Unfortunately, you do have two of the very worst serial trolls, not a word to be used lightly, but there's a suspicion that their personal off-forum relationships with some mods gives them a bye...sometimes...

I think that political education in both countries is a shambles. Having spent a number of years in my teaching union trying to get something to change on that score, and getting called an evangelical commie bastard for me troubles, I can't see an easy way of getting round that. As Churchill said, possible misquote coming up, if you want to know what's wrong with democracy, just spend five minutes talking to the average voter...

I'll get me coat...


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:13 PM

Apologies if I've lumped yanks and Canuckistanis together, and if I've misinterpreted which side of the pond one or two people are on. I'm a bit bloody slow at catching on sometimes... :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 08:34 PM

The normal rules of debate don't apply here. We have one poster whose main tactic is to insult and abuse. You forgot to add he deliberately misinterprets anything said to adds a little je ne sais quoi to his posts.

Why describe yourself using the third person, Iains?

This thread staggered along longer than I expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:24 PM

Feel the love. . .

BTW Steve Shaw, please use an apostrophe where it is s'posed to be utilized. I don't appreciate my entire continent to be referred to as a pubic wig!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:43 PM

Well you lot call us Brits. Don't be so sensitive! Anyway, I've seen some very nice pubic wigs...at least, I thought they were wigs...


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:42 PM

pubic wig? … As long as we are name calling I have heard some call others obnoxious trolling ass holes. As well as:

COLUMN A

atrocious
awful
despicable
disgusting
execrable
godawful
grody
gross
hateable
hateful
heinous
horrid
lousy
low-down
maggot
monstrous
obnoxious
odious
offensive
outrageous
repugnant
repulsive
revolting
rotten
shocking
sorry
trolling
vile
abhorrent
annoying
disgusting
hateful
nasty
objectionable
reprehensible
rotten
stupid
unpleasant
abominable
awful
beastly
big mouth
detestable
disagreeable
dislikable
displeasing
foul
gross
hateable
heel
horrid
insufferable
invidious
mean
nauseating
odious
off-color
ornery
pain in the neck
pesky
pestiferous
pill
repellent
repugnant
revolting
sickening
stinking Ass Holes

COLUMN B
When it comes to actual ass holes have you ever really known a: agreeable
decent
friendly
good
great
kind
lovable
moral
nice
pleasant
pleasing
welcome
wonderful
delightful
likeable
sweet smelling Ass Holes


COLUMN C
CHICKEN
SUB
BEEF
PASTA


At my Chinese Resaurant you get to choose one from column A B and C


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 11:00 PM

Well, THAT was a real Kanye in the Oval Office moment...


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 02:28 AM

I see no one solved my riddle of why Who would you prefer posting, Bruce or Kanye West? made me think of Batman.

Well, since you are dying to know :-) Adam West played Batman, who's real name was Bruce Wayne!

Back to reality...

Joe, just what is it I am top of your list of? I guess it is "obnoxious bullshit posting arseholes" but, if not, I apologise for the misunderstanding. If it is, can you give me any examples of obnoxious bullshit that I have posted or explain in what way I am an arsehole? Unless I can understand what I am doing wrong, how can I correct it? None of this "you know what it is" please and, as you have made the statement in public, I would prefer to resolve it that way too.

Entirely up to you if course.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 03:40 AM

Hi Bill. Thanks for the respose. Newbie or not, you seem to have got the measure of things pretty quickly and you are quite right with your statement about it being easy to find the real facts. Trouble is all these alt-truth sites never go so far as to actually lie. What they do is just give the part of the story that suits their agenda. This is part of what I am on about. The right wing think this is perfectly acceptable and when their pet news sites are accused of bias they begin to froth at the mouth. This may be acceptable behaviour at other sites but on a left-leaning liberal folk site like Mudcat it should and will be resisted.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 04:06 AM

Dave, you are manipulative and a tattle-tale. You are very good at setting people against each other, all the time acting like you are innocent. You start threads like this one that are clearly intended to cause trouble.

As I've told you before, you remind me of the Eddie Haskell character on the Leave It to Beaver TV program, acting all nice to people in authority, and then turning around and stabbing people in the back.

And you ask why I think you're a pain in the ass?

You have campaigned more-or-less constantly for years for the banishment and suppression of various Mudcatters, beginning with Lizzie Cornish. Since you're on the top of my list, it's a good thing I don't believe in suppressing objectionable people, huh, Dave?

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 04:30 AM

"The normal rules of debate don't apply here. We have one poster whose main tactic is to insult and abuse. You forgot to add he deliberately misinterprets anything said to adds a little je ne sais quoi to his posts.

Why describe yourself using the third person, Iains? "


I look forward to you supplying examples of where I deliberately misinterpret posts in order to justify making a post more venemous.
Many times you allow carroll to post long spiels of my alleged sins, but NEVER do you show the preceding posts that gave rise to the responses
EverytimeI try to post an explanation it is deleted. Twice on this thread alone

However here are a couple of examples that demonstrate perfectly what I mean:
My post
Another example is travellers. The vast majority now live in houses/flats/apartments and a small minority still travel. This small sector is a living anachronism like bodgers and coopers. If the vast majority of the population have to abide by a codified set of laws in order for society to function, why should a small group have the arrogance to suppose they can ignore whatever part of the legal code suits and create misery for thousands, besides costing the ratepayer vast sums? I do not have to give examples, the newspapers are full of them. They continue to try to live the life that has gone the way of the dodo. There is no place for it in the modern world-the same as armies no longer use bows and arrows.

The totally distorted interpretation and response!
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

Iains self imposed and intolerant ignorance of the Travellers real situation is the most astounding piece of racist viciousness I have come across and highly dangerous if it were widely shared (did you say you were a Christian – I can't remember and am unable to work it out?
That Traveller lifestyle I not chosen – it is what they weer born to – life in houses to them is as alien as life on the road would be to us if it was forced on us – they were once an essential part of British life, modernisation has left them behind
Describing their life as obsolete, as you do is inhuman and obscene – the stuff holocausts have been made of.
This is probably the most blatantly inhuman indifferent display of ignorance of the plight of an entire community in trouble I have ever encountered and it relates perfectly to whether laws should (or even can) be obeyed

My post
Well we have been through this before. Requisitioning property has only been carried out in wartime in the UK. Any council trying it would be laughed out of court, very expensively. It might work in a socialist jackbooted society but not in the uk. Your socialist dreams are a thinking persons's nightmare. The EU would also eviscerate any council trying such a stunt. Your suggestion is totally nonsensical as you very well know. It would destroy property rights at a stroke. It ain't going to happen and the streets would be running with blood before it did.

The distorted interpretation and response
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:06 PM

Thanks for confirming that you put property above human life Iains, though it wan't necessary
I din't doubt it for a minute
I prefer the humanity of teh feeling people, though I like to think that if people thought about things like this they might take a humanitarian approach to it rather than that of a Conservative economist

I think you demonstrate the fact that, as things are the law serves the haves rather than the have nots

Yur last sentence reads just like Charlton Heston's "Cold, dead hands" spech to the NRA - or even Enoch's "Rivers of Blood"
I can see where you're coming from
Jim Carroll


My post
There is also a requirement to accept western lifestyles are profligate and that there are simply too many people in the world, and of those an uncomfortably high percentage deserve a far higher standard of living that they receive at present.(80% live in poverty)

Jim Carroll
"As for silly talk about reducing the world population,"
Then what relevance does population have to the report
"If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply."
Now there's a thought starve the world to save it
More and more a subject for 'The Horror Channel' as the suggestions cvome rolling in
And the partonsing privilege - "given" underlines that
Who do yuo people think you are to believe life and death cAN BE METED OUT TO SUIT SOCIETY
Your 'wahatboutist' list is meaningless other than to absolve Britain from doing anything

My post (In reponse to a posted article backed by links to national newspapers saying the exact same thing)
Once again attacking the poster not the post.
How very boring!

Did you know Hitler was a nasty little man but he was a dammed fine Führer.

Do you recognise the distinction? If not perhaps you should cease further posting as it could easily be construed as simply trolling.

Carrolls reponse
You've just compared me to "Hitler" - and now "moronic", yet you accuse us of behaving badly to you

and a stunning piece of hypocrisy
Jim Carroll
Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. "
Amen to that

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM

Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer.
Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting.

Many many more examples available. It is quite obvious who the single most disruptive,insulting person is on mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM

And therefore, the proper response should be to present ideas, with facts to back them up, and then to defend or refute those ideas with logic.


So, come in, Joe. lets have some of that Jesuit thinking and logic you are always on about. Give us some facts to back up your statement

Dave, you are manipulative and a tattle-tale.

I won't be offended, honest. Let's do the right thing. You present the facts. I will defend myself. You post a counter argument using logic and I will do the same. That's it. 4 exchanges and no more will be said. Let's clear the air.

But it will have to wait till next week. I will probably be too busy this weekend.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 05:17 AM

BTW - I am talking to Joe Offer the person, not Joe Offer the mod. Any deletion or closure could be seen as unfair advantage. Just saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 08:09 AM

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us!"


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 08:26 AM

I'll drink to that! Could be an education for many of us!


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 08:45 AM

Joe, for fuck's sake, don't YOU start with the personal attacks, too!

There's more than one "Eddie Haskell" in here.
There seems to be a tendency to come into any BS thread loaded for bear.
Which is why, I think a time-out may be in order. Maybe the fight club can get their rocks off somewhere else...

    Jeri, Dave the Gnome asked for facts, and I quite calmly responded with facts that were illustrated with examples. No innuendo, nothing snide - just a straight assessment. He asked for it, and I gave it.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

Errrrrrmmm....who's Eddie Haskell?

There's a very cool thing on the web called "Google" where you can get answers to many questions, and not advertise the fact you don't know. --Mod


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 10:06 AM

Been off line since yesterday (thanks to Global warming storms)
I'm appalled how this has degenerated into a slanging match - - with a once-respected mod participating fully in the slanging, unbelievable

"You present the facts. I will defend myself."#
I've already requested this of him - so far I have had no response
He has described some of us (on the left significantly) as he has and refuses to discuss that accusation
It seems he has joined 'The Dark Side'
What a shame

As far as Iains's behaviour - I intend to try and settle it by PM by sending him about fifty examples of his literally hundreds of personal insulting postings - if any mod would like a copy of those examples I'm happy to put them up publicly
Unless all of us get a grip of our behaviour towards each other I see no future for this section of the forum - not for me anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 10:46 AM

Joe, for fuck's sake, don't YOU start with the personal attacks, too!

OOOPS!! Et Tu, Offer?

Hoist by your own petard(once again) methinks.

Love ya,

Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 10:50 AM

jim - we've read many times of our intentions to ignore some contributors on here. why not just give it a try? once you are into a slanging match with others then some observers can't tell the difference between the participants.
if you can't say anything nice etc...
and - of course- none of this really matters, take it easy


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 11:06 AM

Call me a silly old biddy (and a Conservative at that) but I can't for the life of me see what people on here hope to achieve.

If all you lot want with your load of ol' squit is a massively satisfying slanging match, then I concede that you've admirably managed it.

After nearly 300 posts, this isn't going anywhere is it?
I've had to smile at the several declarations of love though.
(Steve, you false-hearted scallywag, I thought you were mine all mine...)   :(

I think the teacher on playground duty should ring the bell very loudly and all you fist-waving, frothing-at-the-mouth Very Angry People should line up in an orderly fashion and head for your respective classrooms.
Or Mr & Mrs Smack will be invited to pay a visit to Bottyland.


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 11:16 AM

"why not just give it a try?"
Have tried - as have others
We then get accused of being petty by ostracising those we don't agree with
I value this forum and in the main, have no problem with people who don't agree with - no point in being here otherwise
We are all guilty of rising to the abuse - for me, the secret is to stop the abusers - they foul up the otherwise pretty friendly and interesting atmosphere and there really is no reason to tolerate them
If they behaved as they do in a pub, they'd either be flug out on their ear otr else go home with their teeth in their pocket
Their behaviour is chidish and , as it is carried out anonymously and from the safety of cyberspace, extremely cowardly

I've just gathered together about thirty examples of personal abuse from two recent threads, posted by one individual and sent them to the culprit with the following message

"These are selections of your abusive postings of two only threads this year - plenty more untouched
I now intend to gather them all up and, if you continue to behave as you do, will post them to a mod and request that you be removed from this forum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM

I was trying to achieve some sort of understanding as to why right wing conservatives views cause such controversy, Eliza. I should have known better. People always look for the hidden agenda unfortunately.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 19 October 4:03 PM EDT

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