BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

Subject: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:15 AM

On another thread the following phrase was used

I would admit that people expressing conservative opinions are not accepted here. I don't see that as particularly fair, but that's a normal, human thing.

Firstly, I don't see that as being entirely correct. I believe everyone is accepted but some views are not as welcome as others.

Secondly, if some views are not appreciated, is that a bad thing? Working on the basis that most folk people lean towards the left of politics and are liberal in their outlook, it is no small wonder that many on here do not want to be subjected to right wing or conservative (with a small c) philosophy. Would, for instance, anyone on here go to a folk club and criticise a Roy Bailey or Woody Guthrie song? I think not. But neither would they consider walking into a Conservative (with a large C) convention waving a red flag. At least I wouldnt!

Yes, I know there are exceptions but they are just that. Exceptions. We should accept everyone but when views contrary to those of the majority are espoused then it should be no surprise when those views are dismissed by that majority.

I know this may be controversial but can those of a conservative (with a c of either case) nature accept that if their views are likely to clash with the general demeanour of the majority, then they are likely to create a conflict? I am not asking anyone not to do it, just to accept that their views may be at odds with most and that they are not likely to change anyone's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:26 AM

Patently untrue
What are noy accepted here are hate postings aimed at racial and cuntural groups, but that's about it
Some people appear to believe that if you argue against it you are attempting to censor it - on the contrary - you argue against it
I took umbrage at this statement but my posting was removed - the suggestions that this happened remained
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM

Well I am staunch Conservative and that's telling you!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:42 AM

There are a number of others, Bonzo, and I have no issue with that even if I don't understand why. But if you were to post anything radically right wing I think you would accept that it would be robustly challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 05:47 AM

The problem is of course, that 'most folk people' are only leftist in a certain rather bourgeois sense.

Its not because they identify with the lowest strata. Its a sort of desire to improve the lot of the poorest - which is basically a distant cousin of 19th century low church Christianity.

Compare and contrast with Orwell's insight. - Marxism has to come to Asia, becsuse the message is simple, Kill the bosses and more food for us.

Pete Seeger had, as I remember, difficulties with traditional musicians like Bascom Lunsford. And look at the problems of mudcatters in getting insight into the Brexit Leave supporters in working class communities all over England. The abuse soon begins to fly...stupid people, who have been lied to, naive idiots..., Look at the hatred of many country and western music by so many English folkies - although many more miners knew Merle Travis's Dark as a Dungeon than Tommy Armstrong long mournful ballads. I can still remember sitting at the back of the Fleetwood folk club in the 1970's and hearing English folkies sneer at working class Jack Hudson as a 'pseudo Yank'.Was there ever a miners welfare that didn't have a country and western evening?

The problem is not that folk music people are leftist. They are extremely narrow minded leftists, with very little interest in understanding how things are. They reject everything which isn't middle class.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:03 AM

"The problem is of course, that 'most folk people' are only leftist in a certain rather bourgeois sense."
That really doesn't help Al
You don't know "most socialists" and I doubt if you know of many here

"They are extremely narrow minded leftists,"
Again - not true
They come in all shapes and sizes, from Marxists to liberal left
Neither inaccurate sweeping generalisations or specific political debate is not going to help this discussion
The problem here is how people react to each other, not what they believe
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:14 AM

I'm a 'staunch Conservative' too Bonzo.
I do feel that the majority of posters here lean more to the Left, but I don't feel ostracised and have never been attacked for my political view. Some have said they were 'surprised' or even 'disappointed' but they have every right to say so.

What seems to happen though is that political threads get more and more heated, tempers rise and then insults start flying. (This would happen even in a village pub)

I just put on a tin hat, or remove myself and chat about crumpets or cats on another thread.

It's funny how various forums have a stereotype clientele. Yahoo is horribly racist and UKIP-like. Mumsnet is middle-class and 'inclusive' but fairly left-wing. As long as comments remain civil and respectful, one should have the right to express ones views freely. This isn't North Korea after all!

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:41 AM

"(This would happen even in a village pub)"
That needs saying as often as necessary - some pubs ban political discussion and tolerate the furniture being thrown about over sport instead
As much aggression can take place about music - try talking about the definition of folk song, or MacColl - or try criticising Dylan - and head for your bunker
Personal insulting is another matter -
We all do it on occasion - some people make it their signature theme and always have done
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:46 AM

Well said both Eliza and Jim. My best friend is a Conservative and, in views on crime and puishment, slightly right of Genghis Khan. :-) We disagree of course but never fall out and never insult each other's intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:47 AM

'You don't know "most socialists" and I doubt if you know of many here'

Maybe not in the biblical sense, but after hanging round here for a number of years, I do see the way they talk to each other. Theres a certain predictability about the exchanges.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:53 AM

Some people come here to discuss and exchange views - on all sorts of subjects. Unfortunately, some come to provoke - one is on this thread, two others are currently absent (one, I believe, enforced, the second....who knows?).

I think the one on the thread is regarded by most of us as an amiable buffoon, and his attempts at provocation are laughed at at best, ignored at worst. The other two are nasty pieces of work whose sole intention is to sow dissent and stoke up a fight. They are best ignored but, unfortunately, they know which buttons to press and they don't hold back from doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:57 AM

Hmmmmmmmm!

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM

Does that give you a good indication of their politics though, Al? You post on here as often as many others and I get the impression that you are bitter about your treatment at traditional folk clubs. But I do not know if that is really you. Personas on here are made up of what people want you to see. They are not false, but they may not show the whole picture.

Unless I have already told you you may not know, for instance, that my Dad was a lifelong union activist but hated communism. Created all sorts of conflicts at branch meetings and I think some of that has rubbed off on me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM

well there you have it....

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:08 AM

"but after hanging round here for a number of years,"
Mudcat represents a minute numbr of the folk world and there are very few dogmatic socialists' here as far as I can see
I don't see any proszletising Marxists or Trotskyists are there any anarchists left
Nobody has ever advocated violent revolution or hanging capitalists from lamposts - my only experience of machine, factory or rick-burning is from history books
There's a certain predictability about all exchanges if you hang around enough - that's what iseas are about
We're not blank pages who come here to have ideas written on them - we come to share opinions and experiences and hopefully learn from that exchange
For a socialist you appear to be very anti-socialist Al
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:22 AM

Not really bitter about folk clubs. But certainly I have seen a lot of very talented people who haven't even enjoyed the modest success I achieved, because they lack the populist aspect of my work. . Whereas I accepted the challenge of country and western clubs, working men clubs, Irish theme pubs, writing songs for record companies and publishers, etc - and they wanted to play acoustic guitars, play to polite audiences, etc.
However they WERE people really who needed the help of the movers and shakers of the folkscene - basically I suppose the BBC. Alot of them are dead now - their songs not so much forgetten as never really listened to.

Quite frankly I don't think the folkscene deserved the quality of artists that committed to it.

I'm old...just a bit sad for departed and very talented friends. I have my place in history. Buy the boxed set for Bayern Munich, theres my song. Turned into a folksong by people who changed the words and sang it on the terraces, when Kalle deserted Bayern for Inter Milan. The Dutch who re-wrote it about cyclist Gerrie Kneteman.

I'm sorry my mates didn't get the breaks. They were relying on the folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

Many people carry about with them a sort of portable soapbox and can be relied upon to get on it and rant if the right buttons are pressed.

A chap who lives near us makes us smile. One only has to utter the word 'Benefits' and he's off. ('spongers, wasters, parasites, lazy bastards, taking the piss' etc etc) He has sometimes started on about 'bloody immigrants' then realised he's speaking to my husband, and backtracks hurriedly. Husband grins and defuses the situation by hugging the man and calling him 'my dear brother'! I always get the giggles.

It's one's own choice whether to get angry, rise to the bait and 'hit back' or retain a sense of balance, keep one's dignity and find some humour if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

I'm not sure I'm a socialist. I really would like to see the wealth of this country invested in the people.

The rich show no signs of handing it over politely. I think it needs grabbing off the buggers.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

I too have voted, and will vote, Conservative and I am not surprised to find that a folk forum has a predominance of left wing members. Folk clubs were the same. Life was simpler and pleasanter if political argument was avoided. So it is here.

What those on the left may not realise is that people like me share some of their aspirations.
I'm all in favour of those at the bottom of the heap having a safety net, I've been there and I've used it. The NHS, free at the point of use, is a good thing. I've been there and used it , thank you very much! I'm all in favour of of re-nationalisation of water. I wouldn't vote against re-nationalisation of electricity and gas. I would vote against the re-nationalisation of the railways.

What I don't share with the left is the idea that it is OK to pass the cost of all this on to future generations and the idea that spending money creates money. Keynes theorised at a time when this country spent very little on it's population. At that time there was 'headroom' for increasing spending. Now, with our NHS and Welfare Systems, our spending on ourselves has plunged us into ever increasing debt. The only solution is spending within our means and, currently that means spending less. Austerity is quite a good name for it.

One side of this forum's divide relies on abuse, bad language and spurious accusations far more than the other and it it would be a nicer place if this was not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

A socialist cares more about society and believes that wealth should be owned by the community as a whole. A capitalist cares more about their own well being and believes that wealth should be owned by the few. Over simplification but may help you decide which camp you are in.

I believe that the infrastructure that we rely on for transport, shelter, heat, water and health should be owned by the community and run for their benefit but I accept that responsible capitalism should be rewarded. Makes me pretty liberal in both senses of the word I suppose :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:43 AM

"The rich show no signs of handing it over politely. I think it needs grabbing off the buggers."
That sounds like fundamentalist anarchy to me Al -
It's never been about wealth - more about equality of opportunity
I think you should take your gripe about folk clubs onto the other section
That should be about performers committment to the music, not start recognition

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:48 AM

"The rich show no signs of handing it over politely. I think it needs grabbing off the buggers."

But you voted away the chance of that happening in the Referendum.

In early 2019 the EU is introducing controls to get a grip on the offshorers and other tax-avoiders, and make them pay tax in the country in which income/profits are earned. But May has promised to make the UK a tax-haven when we've left the EU. Brexit has nothing to do with people like you and me 'Taking Are Cuntry Back', and everything to do with a tiny, immensely wealthy cadre of tax-avoiders and evaders escaping the new EU tax-avoidance regulations. 'Take Back Control', 'Stop immigrants coming here and taking your jobs/claiming your benefits', and '£350m a week for the NHS' was just bullshit to get the embittered and the disenfranchised on their side.

Words like 'Shot', 'themselves' and 'foot' spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:51 AM

I understand your point Stanron but reject the premise that one side of the divide is more abusive than the other. There are abusive and insulting posts from both sides and I doubt you could get a Rizla between the counts. What you may see though is that more people are against right wing views than for them so you feel that more people are against you. They are not. It is not personal but a rejection of part of your philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 07:56 AM

The left wing and the right wing belong to the same bird.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:01 AM

My Dad was a Constitutional Law professor specializing in the Supreme Court so what do you expect my slant would be.
His era was about the Wobblies. WW2 and McCarthy, mine is just about wobbly wars and watching greed succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:31 AM

The left wing and the right wing belong to the same bird.

Jeez. Never heard that before.
The problem is that one of those wings, sometimes both, are not interested in getting said bird anywhere. It's a post-stroke bird.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:56 AM

"What those on the left may not realise is that people like me share some of their aspirations."
I don't think that's true, but I do think that many conservatives definitely do not - like everything lse, it depends on the aspirations
The left tended to play a large part in folk music because they regarded it as the culture of working people - "the voice of the people" "popular (of the people" featured heavily in their understanding of the culture they dealt with
Sharp was a socialist (of his time) - Topic was established by The Workers Music Association - left came with the job description
That never excluded those who weren't left - far from it.
EFDSS tended to be more establishment minded, yet even there the left had its champions
I worked with Nibs and Jean Mathews - Nibs was a somewhat conservative middle-of-he roader - Jean, who I adored, was a socialist
We all worked together with no problems

I believe that it was a similar situation in the U.S. - the initiali work in salvaging the songs was inspired by Roosevelt's 'New Deal', designed to tackle unemployment which dragged in the Lomax's who ran with the ball and inspired the revival there

One of the problems with the folk scene now is that it has been ripped
from its social roots and the term 'folk' no longer means anything to far too many people (in my opinion)

"The problem is that one of those wings, sometimes both, are not interested in getting said bird anywhere."
Nice insight
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:23 AM

The problem is that one of those wings, sometimes both, are not interested in getting said bird anywhere

Right, the bird can only fly when both wings work together.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:24 AM

To boil down my position I am opposed to the tearing down of the separation of powers, federalism, justice and Democracy itself.

I can imagine that one day Trump could tweet that he has criminalized the mob rule democratic party and fake news journalists or create a similar power consolidation purge. That's what dictators do.

It seems like many neo republicans would be happy with a one man Putin like rule. At least the evil dirty democrat party will have been killed.

Its not populism it is manufactured lies designed for hate and revenge.

Like I say emotions rule decisions much more than facts.

That's it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:31 AM

Pretty words but the bird's right side wants to eat all the sunflower seeds and the left side recognizes the inequity of that and is not going to go along passively in the interest of appearing "reasonable". It's an ancient story.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 09:59 AM

I suggest this argument belongs elsewhere
We pretty well know where everyone stands on these points
As you say, it's an ancient story
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:07 AM

I thought the bird blurb was BS 20 years ago.

Did you know it takes 200 humming birds to make 1 bird tongue pate' on toast? ;^/

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:37 AM

Democrats in this country have been sitting around the campfire singing Khumbaya while trump, his friends and the raptors that preceded them have been monopolizing the wealth of this country and the entire world for almost 50 years now. It's an old story but it needs constant retelling.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:57 AM

The "bird" is greed-- crass capitalism-- and I don't want it to fly at all because it shits on all of us, while we chase after the pretty plumage.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:18 AM

Ideologues of both political persuasions have been the cause of much of the avoidable human misery in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:22 AM

lol ~S~


Gil is right democrats do bring a covered dish to a gun fight.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM

gillymor,

Your facts are incorrect- over the last 50 years, the country has been controlled by each party about the same amount. Please4 don't use fake facts that make you feel good, but are not true.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:31 AM

can you people take your arguments about US politics to another thread

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:31 AM

bb, democrats have been complicit in this redistribution of wealth, I didn't suggest otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:34 AM

Does not sound like it from your post:
"Democrats in this country have been sitting around the campfire singing Khumbaya while trump, his friends... "

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:36 AM

The Dems have been running the country for as much time as the Reps. So if there are 50 years worth of problems, the blame is on BOTH parties.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:39 AM

Read it however you please, bb.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:46 AM

an a mod please ask this to stop rather than closing what was a perfectly valid thread please ?
Plenty of room on the Kavanagh thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:09 PM

Never let it be said I will not give credit where credit is due. Bobad, your phrase the bird can only fly when both wings work together is one that I will use wherever I can now. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:48 PM

'Cept it has nuthin' to do with Bobad whatsoever; credit where credit due & all that -

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=37034

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:06 PM

Thanks for the info, Mossback, but the credit is for bringing it to my attention.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:09 PM

Jim, we are on Mudcat. These are political leanings.
They may be from the silly to sublime but you got what you asked for.
I believe you often: take an argumentative point of view.
One can also take an informative stance which you do at times.
I don't see a problem.
\\
^
O

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:20 PM

This is a suppoed to be a discussion about the forum itself - not individual subjects - a response to accusations that one group is supposedly intolerant of other views
There really is room on other threads to slug out the subjects
Bruce seems happy to spread his behaviour over several threads at a time - I'm somewhat surprised that you do
We really need to sort ourselves out before we sort out the world's problems!
This seemed to be an ideal opportunity -now it's becoming the old-usual bar-room brawl
Pity
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:48 PM

the bird needing 2 wings to fly idea was a quote in tony benn's diaries attributed to an old labour (in both senses) politician in the 70s - eric heffer. i use that in my labour party branch meetings= we get along pretty well.

there are some things in the UK - particularly our public services and recently privatised industries- that are supported by and even cherished by a majority of people here - even conservatives and their ilk. it's odd- while that party are actively working to starve and sell-off (NHS for example, or benefits for disabled people) much of what makes our country just about a good place to live - people will still vote tory.

i've come to the sad conclusion that people actually think we ought to be ruled by toffs. (and people love to have an enemy to fight) even while they are clearly not working in their interests.

ach, i'll stop rambling- i don't think the terms left/right mean much anymore (until recently there has never been much difference between labour/tory or democrat/republican} it's more whether you have a 'closed' or 'open' - outlook. whatever you are manners cost nowt

'all the problems in the world are caused by the fact that we can't understand each other' - but we all need to try

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:57 PM

Well I hate "the Tories" with all my strength, but I regard people who vote Tory who are other than very rich to be severely misguided, and not to be hated. Senoufou is a Tory supporter - God knows why when she's seen in life all those things she's told us about - but she and I are more than capable of enjoying many a friendly banter here. It's my experience on this forum that many people (by no means all) who express views that would be considered right-wing do not express them in a clear-headed or honest fashion. There are several posters here, for example, who twisted and turned so much over the Johnson bus lie, instead of accepting very early on, when confronted with the facts, that it was a blatant piece of dishonesty. I can't think of a single leftie here who didn't freely admit that the remain campaign was just as dishonest, but we still endured wrong-headed assertions from our resident Tories that the campaign was somehow fair and democratic. They seemed to cling to that because "they'd won." The same people accuse us lefties of tribalism...ironic or what. Taking stances like that invites ridicule (whether that ridicule should be articulated here is another matter). Then there's the matter of automatic ridicule because the person posting on the receiving end is who he is. This kind of tribalism here is far more pronounced on the right.

But I'm not bothered. A lot of my posts are a bit like this one. For all I know, every single point I've made could be wrong. But the feeling that there's a Tory behind every lamp-post ready to pounce, no matter what you've said, is repressive.

Not going to go down well, this, is it? :-)