BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:29 AM

I don't know one end of a guitar from another, John, but I HAVE seen a few horrors in use in folk clubs! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:30 AM

...and I did say I was indulging in unjustified stereotypes, before you come to get me!

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:45 AM

Just pulling your wotsit, Steve - I knew all that! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 11:48 AM

"Just pulling your wotsit, Steve"
Get a room you two!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:24 PM

I think there's far too much smearing of individuals, far too much playing to the gallery, far too much reliance placed on slogans and sound bites, and far too little by way of thought-through, properly costed policies - especially by the Left, less so by the Right.

IMO



Mossback,

Have you heard ANY of the campaign ads here in Maryland, for the Govenor's race?

YOU need a long trip to the world of facts and reality....




The more the Democratic base justifies and excuses liars, and rapists, and do-nothing, money-grubbing, women-dismissing and denigrating, red-faced, nut jobs, the more they defeat themselves.

But I see the Clintons are out on tour, raising money to line their pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:33 PM

I think it was Tarrega, who was asked his thoughts on the forty five years, he'd spent playing the guitar.

He said, only five years playing - I spent the other forty tuning the damn thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 12:55 PM

There have been quite a few complaints from Corbyn supporters about unfair treatment by the BBC. More importantly:

Being a soapbox for climate change cranks

Plugging Brexit

...and Unionist anti-Scottish-independence spin and downright lies several times a day, don't get me started. All of the "All Under One Banner" demos have had people carrying placards attacking the BBC or lampooning them in songs - it's not even seen as a matter of political debate any more.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:01 PM

"Moneygrubber the New York Times
"Even when it comes to a sick baby in his family, Donald Trump is all business. The megabuilder and his siblings Robert and Maryanne terminated their nephew’s family medical coverage a week after he challenged the will of their father, Fred Trump. “This was so shocking, so disappointing and so vindictive,” said niece Lisa Trump, whose son, William, was born 18 months ago at Mount Sinai Medical Center with a rare neurological disorder that produces violent seizures, brain damage and medical bills topping $300,000."

MORE GOODIES HERE

SLOGANS AND SOUNDBITES

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 01:05 PM

MORE SLOGANS AND SOUNDBITES

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:17 PM

Thread #165019   Message #3955595
Posted By: Dave the Gnome
09-Oct-18 - 06:22 AM
Thread Name: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat

Let's not get too carried away with the pros and cons of any particular system. Thanks all for, in the main, keeping it 'clean' but I was hoping the thread would highlight that the Mudcat, as with most folk clubs, leans somewhat to the left and is liberal in its ideology. As such, it is only to be expected that right wing and conservative views will be frowned upon by the majority.

Any views on that?

---

And there, you see, is the problem and the source of my disappointment. I came of age in the 1960s. At the time, two major aspects of liberalism, at least in the U.S., were pacifism and tolerance. But then I came to Mudcat, and came across a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist.
They are very self-righteous about their putative right to bully other ways of thinking away.
And I don't like it.

Of course, there was a time when the marks of conservatism were personal responsibility and protection of individual rights, along with a sense of fair play. That's gone, too.
And I don't like it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:09 PM

Ah, Joe and the myth of the golden age... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:17 PM

Tolerance is what it is all about, Joe. Right from the outset I have said that all should be welcome here. My only point is that the right wing conservatives seem to be surprised and take offence when anyone argues against their views. It is not just here. It is happening world wide and at the head of it is your president. You should always expect a platform within the liberal, tolerant folk world. But don't expect a free ride.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:22 PM

And, BTW, those tolerant pacifists of the 60s were not called angry young men for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:29 PM

Don't expect to see Tories complaining about this example of the BBC's bias:

Anti-EU hegemony on Question Time

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:18 PM

Again, I don't want to be too tied to 'left' 'right' liberal, conservative, because I think it promotes knee jerks.

Cases in point: One of our astronauts just got in trouble for quoting Winston Churchill. Then he backed off and got in trouble for backing off.

I remember enough of the 70s to remember there was MORE freedom of expression then, partly because the mavens of PC were just getting started and were more reasonable. Also because more conservatives were intellectual (William F. Buckley) and had more of a sense of humor (Barry Goldwater, Johnny Cash). And also because there was less of an in-all-our-faces effect which the social networks now make not only possible, but frequent.

I called into one of our AM local radio shows where everyone was attacking our Senator, Lisa Murkowski, for her votes and thoughtful words about her votes regarding the Kavanaugh affair. I simply stated that I found Dr. Christie Blasey Ford credible, that I felt Kavanaugh had obviously prevaricated about his high school yearbook, and had not responded to questioning in as dignified a manner as I would like from my supremes. Then people called in finding my opinion too credulous about Dr. Ford. When that was precisely what the President had said a few days before.

Life is tough when you leave ideology behind. It kinda wants to stick to your shoe.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:30 PM

I ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon,
I'll let you know !

It's gonna be a toss up.

Yes democrats are challenged to have a decent platform.
Yes republicans can dress up a pack of lies that look good.
Yes there are unwashed losers who want to look like winners who vote
Yes the young don't vote
Yes there are lots of intelligent voters.
Yes the system is rigged hacked and whacked


but its gonna be a toss up.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:41 PM

Joe this is the universe we are talking about.
Things move around and turn inside out
Political parties switch places entirely.
100 years ago the Republicans were the civil rights party.
I can go into much detail on this.
Keep a political party starved for truth and it gets demonstrably hungry

But please don't buy into angry mobs roaming the capitol attacking people in elevators and diners. That only reminds me of hooligan gangs of grannies as in Monty Python.

Anonymous people here certainly enjoy making their bark worse than their bite.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:43 PM

Johnny Cash a conservative? Weird.
The problem I have, and I figure I'm not alone, is that politics (mostly the right wing) seems to be more about power than public service, and it doesn't cause problems that their followers seem to think that's just fine. I think we'd probably have less of an problem with them if they seemed to care about other humans.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:50 PM

You do realize the brains of conservatives are actually different?

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:57 PM

"And also because there was less of an in-all-our-faces effect which the social networks now make not only possible, but frequent."

If this troubles you, the answer is simple: avoid all social media. Mudcat is the nearest thing to social media I ever indulge in by a long chalk. I'm cheerfully ignorant of the social media effect insofar as it directly impacts my life, though I'm told it bleeds into other areas of life. It may well affect me but it isn't in-my-face. Let's hope that baleful things such as Facebook and Twitter go the way of Friends Reunited. I'm sure they will, and I hope they take the fake and shallow politicians who resort to them with them. But if you want to blame populism on social media, let's see the evidence. I'm not so sure about that. Social media didn't exist when Hitler was on the rise.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM

That's interesting Steve.

Which came first the dictator's populism or the social media propoganda?

I'd say it was the egg but I am still waiting for the chicken or egg.

Come on everyone we have not exhausted Democracy.
Saving it however is exhaustng

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:33 PM

The term 'Fake News' comes out of 1938 South America and Brazil. It was invented as a response to the propaganda Goebbels sent to that hemisphere regarding the glorious spread of Hitlerism.

The technology changes from news reels to face book but the tune is still recognizable.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:35 PM

Another thing. Posting stories about Donald Trump as if the reporter has figured him out and he is__________
An Antisemite
A Liar
A Criminal
A Thief
A This
A That

If you think you can pin him down you don't 'get' Donald Trump. He is a B*llSh*t Artist par excellence. He has
one principle and it is, let's all say it together, Donald Trump This is something that is not new to America, but it is sorta new in the Oval Office.

He does not so much tell a lie, or the truth, as tell you what he wants you to believe at the time. He went from Dr. Christie Blasey Ford was credible, to challenging everything about her credibility to "it was a hoax" in half a week.

This is both interesting, in that he can talk to anyone at any time, and truly scary.


And all the time he was doing 'business' or running for President, or being President, this has been in the open for all to see it. The Democrats and the New York Times are as exhausted as an outfielder catching random fly balls, the Republicans are lying lying lying both to the public and to themselves because they are spinning the fly balls as home runs.


One thing seems to track: He lets down everyone who trusts him.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:41 PM

That's the spirit

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:50 PM

In case you missed Jims link folk singers political leanings

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:24 PM

Hillary says its impossible to be civil with people who want to destroy everything you believe in.
That's true but the words everything and impossible are exaggerations
.for now.


Here is the paradox; The right wing base is impressed by the chaos that Trump incites and left wing demonstrations ensue. I say we have to risk it to mobilize ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:29 AM

"In case you missed Jims"
Thanks for that D - I'll have a silly grin for the rest of the morning
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:45 AM

I'd just point out that, from a UK perspective, people such as Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are considered to be pretty right-wing. Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:23 AM

" But then I came to Mudcat, and came across a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist.
They are very self-righteous about their putative right to bully other ways of thinking away."

I assume it is Liberal in the American sense of the word. i.e.left.

Very true words Joe. Some of them are trying hard to provoke on another thread! A very clear demonstration of the veracity of your statement!

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:31 AM

"rabid liberals " - is an oxymoron used by right wing morons to defend extremism as far as I'm concern
I have to say I'm surprised at a mos using the term to attack members of this forum - wonder if he'll close the thread down!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:32 AM

Should be 'mod'

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:55 AM

"Some of them are trying hard to provoke on another thread! A very clear demonstration of the veracity of your statement!"
It's this type of unqualified accusation that causes the most problems in communicating here - allusions to something they are not prepared to identify
We're here to discuss openly, not tp play dodgems - why not just say what you are referring to
I do hope it's the one discussing Trump
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:56 AM

It should not be closed down unless it becomes toxic, Jim. The easiest way to avoid that is to not react to any provocation.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:14 AM

It should not be closed down unless it becomes toxic, Jim
I was being ironic Dave
We seem to have a mod who has closed threads because of members abusing each other, now happy to describe other members as "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"
Beyond me, I'm afraid
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:23 AM

Maybe some of the other Scottish folks here can comment, but what I seem to be seeing is a fairly rapidly expanding tactical consensus. A kind of wartime camaraderie effect. People are aligning with the independence movement, if not actually joining up with the SNP, as what we see down south is a flock of vultures opposed by a flock of headless chickens, neither of which many of us want to have telling us what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 07:40 AM

Sorry Jim - Got it now. It was a bit beyond me too :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:33 AM

"It was a bit beyond me too"
We have had similar accusations from two people who have made discussing Israel impossible by screaming "Jew hater" at everybody who dares criticise that State - both avid Trump supporters
That accusation has just been repeated by someone who has serially verbally abused members of this thread and attempted to talk down to them since he joined
Nothing has been done about the behaviour of this trio yet a mod is agreeing with them that we (presumably) are "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"
Sorry - I am obviously missing something
If people are going to make such accusations they should have the good manners to qualify them as far as I can see, this description fits nobody other than the trio who are making the accusation - easily provable by producing examples of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:43 AM

Jim, you're trolling. As in trying to pull in people who are not involved in this thread. Please stick to THIS one, and avoid general bitching about everything/everyone you don't like here. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:59 AM

"Jim, you're trolling."
Sorry Jeri - I'm not
I'm responding to an accusation I believe has no substance
The basis of this thread is how people have behaved elsewhere
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:03 AM

The basis of this thread is that there should be no surprise that the Mudcat has a preponderance of left leaning people with liberal views. How they have behaved elsewhere is only an issue where people seem to be surprised that right wing conservative views are vehemently argued against.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:34 AM

There is no trolling here, not by any definition of trolling that I've ever seen.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:34 AM

My thoughts exactly
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM

That was to Dave BTW - but it applies to Steve's as well
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM

Joe's comments may painful to hear, but I don't think they are too far from true. Please bear in mind he criticised both sides.

Dave said it was all about tolerance. Well, maybe. But I am reminded of an Alex Glasgow song which was superficially in praise of the English, but was actually a searing attack on a form of hypocrisy that we are all prone to. Amongst other things (warning! upcoming racism, but it is there for a reason), it says the Englishman "tolerates some wogs". Now 'tolerance' is the lowest level you can get to below rejection: it is far short of acceptance, or mutual recognition, or enthusiasm. We tolerate pain, and going to the dentist. We do not 'tolerate' friends and partners - it would be an inadequate description of the relationship. Then, Alex's next word 'some': we don't even tolerate all of them. Just the ones we deem acceptable. Our decision, not theirs. And then the casual and unthinking racism, which is far too common everywhere. Three hammer blows, in three words.

I have always thought it a good working practice to assume that whoever I speak to (or type at) is not stupid. Whatever opinions they have come to, there are experiences or ideas that got them there. They may choose to play games instead of explaining them, which makes a reasonable discussion impossible, but if we and they are prepared to listen and think it can be worth while for both sides of the fence.

So can we be accused of "tolerating some right/left-wingers"? I think so.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:45 AM

I think so too, DMcG. Toleration is better than out and out rejection though.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 10:02 AM

"Please bear in mind he criticised both sides."
Hardly - even handedly Mac

"But then I came to Mudcat, and came across a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist.
They are very self-righteous about their putative right to bully other ways of thinking away.
And I don't like it."

The other bit was little more than lip service
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 10:24 AM

Joe Offer: "a whole passel of rabid liberals who are neither tolerant nor pacifist"

Donald Trump: “you don’t give power to an angry left-wing mob” - “The Democrats are radical socialists".

Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:23 AM

To the tune The Church is One Foundation.

We are the rabid liberals
And we should get your vote
If you're not nice and tolerant
We'll punch you up the throat.

We are the rabid liberals
And it would be so sweet
To keep racist, fascist arseholes
Completely off the street.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:50 AM

People who object to the term "rabid liberals" might want to reconsider their use of the term "right wing morons" if they truly wish to raise the tenor of discourse around here.

Subject: RE: BS: The political leanings of Mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:55 AM

but I was hoping the thread would highlight that the Mudcat, as with most folk clubs, leans somewhat to the left and is liberal in its ideology. As such, it is only to be expected that right wing and conservative views will be frowned upon by the majority.

Well the majority of people using Mudcat will just come in search of songs and tunes and I doubt have any concern about below the line. They will often find what they are looking for using a search engine such as google or the mudcat searches and that will be the end of their vist. They will come from various parts of the world and hold political opinions we know nothing about.

Of the minority of visitors who do contribute to threads, my impression is that it remains a minority of this minority that regularly choose to enter the political topics, although I think political threads are more prominent below the line these days as less else happens…

I’d speculate reasons for what I perceive as low participation amongst this subset include. Not seeing Mudcat as a resource for political discussion (eg. some may well prefer to keep their politics and music separate), not finding much relevant (and much centres around the UK) , feeling that “debates” tend to be circular with no resolution and dislike of the tone of conversation. I’d think it less about other potential contributors not having personal views, etc.