BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 08:04 AM

Orbital variation would cause an infrequent ice age that we are now countering/avoiding with man made global warming but exceeding a certain point would will cause a runaway event. If we have no control of heating we could be looking at no intelligent life on this planet 21,000 years from now. Now that is the set up line for arguing if there is intelligent life now.
I say there is, but temporary comfort and wealth are enough to lure many humans away from doing the right thing.

In conclusion if we do nothing natural causes for global warming will compound the humn causes for global heat increase.

Yes Virginia we can get as hot as Venus

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 06:06 AM

There is a downside to warming that is kept very low key. Some suggest the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (Amoc), has weakened by 15% since 1950, thanks to melting Greenland ice and ocean warming making sea water less dense and more buoyant.
At the onset of the younger Dryas(cold)period it is postulated by some that it was caused by freshwater ponding trapped along the southern ice cap(roughly great lakes)that broke out into the north west Atlantic and stopped the Amoc abruptly for 1500years.

Could make northern europe a tad chilly if we happen to have a round two.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:03 AM

Yes he is probably right, but it would require the extinction of all species capable of consuming fossil fuels, and the growth of a lot of plants which locked carbon in. Shouldn't take more than 400 million years.

The scary thing in Iain's second link is Figure 4, given that the horizontal axis is logarithmic.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 03:41 AM

It probably will.   Sometime is the not so immediate future.
One person's view
https://www.astrobio.net/climate/paleoclimate-points-to-rapid-changes/

and for geeks - a starting point.
https://globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/kling/paleoclimate/paleoclimate.html

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 06:43 PM

Its OK.
Donald Trump said the climate will change back. Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 12:39 PM

Some mothers do 'ave em!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/07/epa-head-scott-pruitt-says-global-warming-may-help-humans-flourish

Whereas Nasa states:

https://climate.nasa.gov/

Who lost the hymn book?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 10:55 AM

I hope some of you realize that the - words - CLIMATE CHANGE and GLOBAL WARMING are illegal and banned in Florida in any government capacity including the internet. Governor Scott Walker is respondsible for law against word.


The federal EPA website on global warming has also been banned by TRUMP.

I hope the big brother observance of banned words does not extend here.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:09 AM

Donuel I may not be stupid but neither am I particularly clever. Far, far more clever people than I have struggled with fusion for years. I do not believe success has been achieved for more than milliseconds, though I could be wrong.
Perhaps an appreciation of the damage being done to the planet by out existence may spur development of the utopian dream,

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/nuclear-fusion-reactor-sun-core-temperature

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:54 AM

Iains I would appreciate it if you would just hurry up and develop cheap reliable localized fusion power for the planet. The alternatives are sounding dismal.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:49 AM

The carbon footprint of nuclear power stations is not that clear. Calculations can be done for construction and life cycle, but decommissioning is something of a grey area.

a few years old
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph241/gerrard1/

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

Well making wind turbines and solar panels also consumes carbon. Once the devices are in place, carbon consumption dries up. It's then a question of how much they can then compensate for the carbon used in their manufacture. The same applies to installations that burn coal, oil or gas to generate electricity, the difference being that they spend their whole lives consuming carbon, not just during their manufacture and commissioning. So rethink your nuclear opinion with that in mind. Yes there's the problem of waste disposal. I suppose there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:57 AM

Nuclearpower not low carbon

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:06 AM

I don't think nuclear power is as some people think carbon neutral, it produces carbon at many stages including mining, which is getting harder as the sources become rarer and harder to mine. The waste from power stations is a real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:51 AM

90 COMPANIES and GLOBAL WARMING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 02:17 PM

According to the Carbon Brief website, the amount of carbon dioxide sent into the atmosphere last year totalled 381 million tonnes, compared to 382 million tonnes in 1894, after coal emissions slumped by more than 50 per cent.

http://www.whebgroup.com/scaling-up-green-investments-from-ambition-to-asset-allocation/

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:15 PM

"Well I suppose that the imported Saudi oil, Russian gas and that stuff we'll soon be fracking doesn't have any carbon in it... "

Well you may believe that but the real scientists here do not!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:13 AM

'Perhaps Maggie should be elevated to sainthood for supposedly crippling the coal industry and thus vastly diminishing our carbon footprint at a stroke."

Well I suppose that the imported Saudi oil, Russian gas and that stuff we'll soon be fracking doesn't have any carbon in it...

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:09 AM

Here on the est Coast of Ireland we are battening down the harches in preparation of yet another MAJOR STORM
Who knows - maybe it'll see of enough people to cut down our population and solve all out ecological problems !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:43 AM

Meanwhile in Florida but nowhere near the area affected by the hurricane:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/fabiola-santiago/article219330305.html

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:30 AM

I do not quote you. I am entitled to a perception without obeying your rules. You are entitled to yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:33 AM

"Iains easily accepts a solution of cutting population by half or more."
Donuel you are in bad company. You are making assumptions. Where have I suggested the solution you quote me on?

I look forward to seeing you offer the evidence.

"Nobody has suggested any of these things - which are all negative responses anyway."
Oh Dear! only a negative response will reduce a carbon footprint. A positive one increases it.
'Twould seem you advocate maintainance of the status quo. That ain't going to achieve anything, is it?

Rationing energy, banning cars, and to stop trucking food long distances in the western world. These items contribute significantly to a person's carbon foot print.


http://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=4849&printable=1

a rather old article but it demonstrates the components od an individuals carbon footprint.
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/your-carbon-footprint-revealed-climate-change-report-finds-we-each-prod

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 10:17 AM

Hurricane Michael's karma is about to run over Rick Scott's dogma

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:54 AM

"Rationing energy, banning cars, and to stop trucking food long distances in the western world is not going to happen in the immediate future,"
Nobody has suggested any of these things - which are all negative responses anyway
What is necessary are positive responses - some of which have already been suggested - development of a practical and usable public transport system, the use of energy-producing systems that have already been researched, but abandoned because they would impinge on the profits of ecology-harming industries - development if development of non-profit solar energy systems, restriction on the use of unnecessary plastics...... a whole range of first-steps
Basically, the profit incentive needs to be taken out of all necessities and replaced by
Oil is one of the greatest accelerating causes of not only ecological damage, but world peace - that fact needs to be recognised and dealt with if we're going to pass on a livable planet to our kids

I totally agree about fracking - UTTER MADNESS given the increasing occurrence of earthquakes around the golbe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:29 AM

Yes some climate change happens in seconds from impact phenomena and some change comes slowly. The current change is in between.

The evidence of mammals as large as Mammoths being frozen solid in mid chew is dramatic. Ice merely cooberates other evidence.

Methane has over twice the detrimental greenhouse gas effect of CO2.
The scope of methane release via fracking is tremendous. Compounding myriad factors such as melted perma frost decay and ocean bottom effects, suddenly the rate of warming is off the old charts.

It sounds like Jim is seeking answers to save humanity and Iains easily accepts a solution of cutting population by half or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:44 AM

"You appear to be suggesting that Governments can't do anything about the welfare and well being of its people because, if they did they world be adding to the problems of climate change - that is your sole argument so far - you are offering nothing else"
Rubbish!
Rationing energy, banning cars, and to stop trucking food long distances in the western world is not going to happen in the immediate future, especially in America (the most wasteful nation on earth)
Likewise lifting the 80%out of poverty is not going to happen in the immediate future. There is neither the will, nor the resources. You cannot stifle growth in emerging economies, especially when your own is clearly squandering resources with gay abandon. Burning fossil fuels is not going to stop overnight. Perhaps Maggie should be elevated to sainthood for supposedly crippling the coal industry and thus vastly diminishing our carbon footprint at a stroke.
We have had both the major political parties hold their conventions recently. How green were their credentials? Hardly a mention.
Politics have got involved as carbon can be made/is a cash cow through taxation.
It is clear most politicians have no idea as to how high the stakes are. If only focused on the next election how can they take an interest in events decades down the road? It is a sobering thought that ice core analysis suggests that rapid change can occur on less than decadal time scales. It would seem most only pay lip service to the idea of climate change,what is needed is a trigger event to concentrate minds. Thus far none have occurred.
broad over view

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995507/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC34297/

I suggest you study closely the timescale for the termination of the Younger Dryas in the last paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:14 AM

"What on earth has that to do with the price of tea in China?"
You appear to be suggesting that Governments can't do anything about the welfare and well being of its people because, if they did they world be adding to the problems of climate change - that is your sole argument so far - you are offering nothing else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:07 AM

"No Government would ever dare declare that they can no longer represent all the people as you have continually done"
What on earth has that to do with the price of tea in China?
perhaps you would show me how you derived the deranged statement above.
I look forward to seeing myself quoted to substantiate your allegation. As shaw would say. Let's be having your proof.
Or is it another of your famous fairy tales?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:35 AM

One version of a global warming animation.

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/new-video-visualizes-a-century-of-global-warming-in-just-35-seconds

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:19 AM

THIS BEATS SOUNDBITES AND BLAMING OVERPOPULATION ANY DAY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:15 AM

"The answer lies with reforming society, not protecting the status quo"



The answer lies with finding ways of preserving society and making it far more resilient. Shortly it may turn out to be that serious.
On another tack. The average household per capita electricity consumption in the UK is 2000kw/hrs, in the US 5000kw/hrs.
By contrast Malawi 24kw/hr, Sierra Leone 4kw/hr
per capita consumption

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

If you take UK per capita consumption and raise everyone to that level, the co2 levels would be raised significantly. Also how do you prevent China from increasing its co2 levels? After all it is producing widgets for the world, especially in the field of telecommunications NO more growth = no more widgets. How do you square that circle?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:12 AM

"Past societies that have outgrown their resource base have collapsed."
There is not danger of that happening yet - the existing resources are sufficient to sustain us all - the fact that it is wasted and misused and often ignored is down to the system we live under, not the number of people
Systems are man-made and any system that can not provide for all its people is no longer fir for purpose and needs to be replaced with one that caters for all
Unfortunately, those in control benefit from things being left as they are
No Government would ever dare declare that they can no longer represent all the people as you have continually done   
What are you suggesting?
The Chinese came in for a lot of stick for attempting to control birth rates not too long ago - is that what you are suggesting
There is much concern about the rapidly growing gap between haves and have nots - in Britain included
Are you suggesting it should be allowed to continue widening?
We are now in a situation in Britain where people are being forced either to take any job on offer or starve
Are you supporting theat particular concept ?
Society is sick and needs healing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:12 AM

"Past societies that have outgrown their resource base have collapsed."
There is not danger of that happening yet - the existing resources are sufficient to sustain us all - the fact that it is wasted and misused and often ignored is down to the system we live under, not the number of people
Systems are man-made and any system that can not provide for all its people is no longer fir for purpose and needs to be replaced with one that caters for all
Unfortunately, those in control benefit from things being left as they are
No Government would ever dare declare that they can no longer represent all the people as you have continually done   
What are you suggesting?
The Chinese came in for a lot of stick for attempting to control birth rates not too long ago - is that what you are suggesting
There is much concern about the rapidly growing gap between haves and have nots - in Britain included
Are you suggesting it should be allowed to continue widening?
We are now in a situation in Britain where people are being forced either to take any job on offer or starve
Are you supporting theat particular concept ?
Society is sick and needs healing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:45 AM

Jim I would suggest you read what I have stated and not react blindly to what you think I have stated(your major, major failing)
Past societies that have outgrown their resource base have collapsed.
What makes you think it will be any different for us. The average westerner subjected to a subsistence lifestyle would fail. Western society has neither the knowledge nor fitness levels to revert to a peasant lifestyle. Even John Seymour needed to write to keep his head above water. We do not need a cull -on our present path it will occur
of its own volition. The more organised a society, the more vulnerable it is. Many events could destroy society. A pandemic would probably starve more that it killed by infection.
Right now we Florence and zeberdee just waiting for the bearings to fail on the magic roundabout.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: G-Force
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:38 AM

It's a simple matter also to produce a nice, clear graph to show the correlation of atmospheric CO2 rise with global temperature rise.

So I wonder why they haven't done it (assuming they haven't). Could it be because the change in CO2 tends to lag behind the change in temperature, suggesting that it is caused by it rather than causes it?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:24 AM

I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing Iains if you are not suggesting a cull
It seems to me that we have a problem with how we regard our planet - suggesting that people should be kept poor (is that not what you are doing?) is typical of how the wealthy west regards the rest of the world
Your alternative appears to be victimise them and do nothing
The report in details deals with all aspects of misuse of energy - centring on the poor is not unlike suggesting that Grenfell Tower refugees should be left homeless to protect the sanctity of private property (wonder where that came from)
The answer lies with reforming society, not protecting the status quo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:24 AM

I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing Iains if you are not suggesting a cull
It seems to me that we have a problem with how we regard our planet - suggesting that people should be kept poor (is that not what you are doing?) is typical of how the wealthy west regards the rest of the world
Your alternative appears to be victimise them and do nothing
The report in details deals with all aspects of misuse of energy - centring on the poor is not unlike suggesting that Grenfell Tower refugees should be left homeless to protect the sanctity of private property (wonder where that came from)
The answer lies with reforming society, not protecting the status quo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 05:07 AM

Population dynamics and climate change: what are the links?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:44 AM

When I was still working I once looked up how I would get to work without using the car.
The journey started with a 32 minute walk to the bus stop, used 3 buses and 2 trains and could get me there in under 4 hours. It was longer on the way back.
I kept to my one hour drive.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 04:35 AM

"Depends on what you mean by "a lifestyle to take them out of poverty", surely? I would guess that lots of people reading this live without things like multiple family 4X4s, massive homes bulging with central heating and air conditioning, regular jet flights across the world, enormous consumption of new clothes made essentially of plastics, guzzling of sugary drinks in plastic bottles, etc, etc. "

A lifestyle to take them out of poverty does not mean a lifestyle of profligate waste as you outline. I do not even accept the UK definition of poverty where lack of access to satellite TV is used by some to indicate poverty. I am talking about the sort of poverty I have seen in many parts of the world and especially in some African countries where I have lived for considerable periods of time.
Take in it's simplest case, access to clean running water, reliable electricity, fresh food, basic housing, (not mud huts and tin shacks)
reliable public transport, access to medical facilities, education. In essence the provision of the basic services that even the lowest tier of society in the EU expects as a basic human right.

That people can make the automatic assumption above, as to what is indicative of poverty, indicates there is a woeful lack of understanding of what real poverty is.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0013916517710685


https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/12/what-is-the-link-between-carbon-emissions-and-poverty/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5783954/


http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/fighting-poverty-might-make-it-harder-fight-climate-change


https://news.mongabay.com/2009/12/profile-of-the-carbon-footprint-of-the-global-poor-the-challenge-of-alleviating-poverty-and-fi

As I said:If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply"

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:48 AM

Absolutely right, and well done for demonstrating the wrong-headed nature of the sentence you quote in bold.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 03:44 AM

"If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply."

Depends on what you mean by "a lifestyle to take them out of poverty", surely? I would guess that lots of people reading this live without things like multiple family 4X4s, massive homes bulging with central heating and air conditioning, regular jet flights across the world, enormous consumption of new clothes made essentially of plastics, guzzling of sugary drinks in plastic bottles, etc, etc.

A life (or "lifestyle") that is not poor does not have to be wasteful. It's possible to have good solar and wind technology and excellent insulation and actually lower carbon footprints, while enhancing a good, safe, healthy life.

In the first world, if we built cycling networks in cities (replacing the enormous use of streets for parking) and those who are not disabled rode bicycles for all journeys under a mile/2km, it would take a big whack out of carbon production (as well as giving a huge boost to health and cutting healthcare expenditure).

We don't have to sit around crying and pointing and pulling straws out of our arse; we can take action.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 10:24 PM

Hats off to you robo! superb.
Yes it is funny but true if you like gallows humor. It is also Depressing but accurate. 100 years from now parts of NYC will be under water as deep as Cleopatra's temple is now.


I saw this when it first aired and the show was stellar.
Jane Fonda also made a successful re introduction of her acting career after her Ted days.


A valuable book by historian Michael Beschloss is called Presidents at war. 8 Presidents are deeply investigated for 10 years and are shown how war drives many of them crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 09:16 PM

And maybe Al Gore should have tried more humor.

Making dire straits funny as hell

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 08:41 PM

Jim you are organized, concise and have the patience to be a teacher. Maybe you're at the Tribune?

Steve you are too easily distracted but sometimes you have a great notion.

And I am James Joyce. Three marks for quark does not equal three quarks for Mark. :^/

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:30 PM

Unfortunately, the first UNDENIABLE effects of climate change, the swamping of low-lying islands and coastal areas by rising sea levels, are most likely to occur in places that the West doesn't really care about. Increasing drought, floods and hurricanes will always be plausibly explained away by deniers and multinationals with vested interests. Climate scientists are, in one sense, their own worst enemies by constantly emphasising that a single event isn't evidence of climate change. Instead, they should be telling us that return periods of the most severe events are getting shorter and shorter. It's a simple matter also to produce a nice, clear graph to show the correlation of atmospheric CO2 rise with global temperature rise. Likewise, it's simple enough to show how these factors correlate with sea level rise. You don't see enough of that. We need to see a lot more of the already-obvious impact of temperature rise such as the mortal threat to the Great Barrier Reef and accelerating desertification on several continents. A temperature map showed that the hot European summer of 1976 was an anomaly more or less confined to Europe. The similarly hot summer of this year was shown by a comparable map to be far more widespread, global in fact. Climate change deniers such as that confounded idiot Nigel Lawson are given airtime in the cause of "balance." Well we don't give people who claim that black people are less intelligent or closer to apes airtime in the cause of balance. Nigel has no more right to get on telly to promote his views on a topic he's inexpert with than I do. I don't want to hear him. The public need to be far better informed on climate change, not deliberately uninformed as they are now. And getting people to change their ways when everything is currently going so swimmingly for them is an even bigger obstacle. Facile arguments about giving up meat and riding your bike along dangerous roads to get to work don't help.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:10 PM

The British Government response:

Gove goofs off

Unspeakable cunts.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Tunesmith
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:14 PM

I'm sure our civilisation - as we know it - is doomed!
There's not the political will or appetite for the radical changes needed...it would be a vote loser, and political suicide and all that.
This is where democracy doesn't work.
If the world was ruled by totalitarian hard men, then something could be done.
But, at the moment, no one - or nowhere near enough - is going to give up their cars, change their diet, stop flying all over the planet, give up their gadgets and so on.
Of course, when the extremes of climate change really start kicking in, maybe the public appetite for the required radical steps will be forthcoming...if it's not too late by then!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:58 AM

" is far of a threat "
Should read "a far greater threat"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:26 AM

Agreed, Steve.

Nigel - Nice to see you back. Not nice to see you nitpicking.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:21 AM

Those who work hard get more work, and those who don’t work hard get less work"
Under our system - those who work hard work themselves out of a job
LISTEN HERE
It's called the theory of surplus value
The Soviets didn't get everything right, but they turned the former Russian Empire from a series of semi feudal countries to a world competitor in record time and would have got much further had it not been for two destructive World Wars and a civil war promoted and participated in by fourteen invading countries.
In that time they produced world-class education and health systems and wrote into their constitution that a place to live was a right not a privilege of wealth
All of these things were introduced into Britain by a somewhat limp-wristed socialist Government after the war and were gradually destroyed or debased by Conservatve and pseudo socialist Governments until they have reached the sorry state they are in now
The Trotskyists described the Soviet Union as "a deformed workers State", which s what i became under Stalin - it never really recovered, but the progress remained until Russiia finally "freed itself from teh chains of Communism"
Now we have Putin and his ilk turning Russian workers from their homes to make room for the rich (when he is not sending agents around the world to poison dissidents, or interfering in Western elections)
"Free" Russia is far of a threat to International democracy than the Soviet Union ever was
Work that one out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 06:10 AM

Look into it more, G-force. Both China and India are making big efforts to keep their emissions in check. Of course, they have the disadvantage of having huge populations, but in per-capita terms they can't compete with the US. Would you like them to stop developing?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:58 AM

"It was said that the Soviet Union was creating a paradise for workers. Everyone was to be treated equally, and the wealth was to be shared. The trouble is that when people regard everything as theirs, they can justify theft because, after all, it all belongs to the people. Also there is no incentive to work hard. Those who work hard get more work, and those who don’t work hard get less work"

and the result?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/armine-sahakyan/the-grim-pollution-pictur_b_9266764.html

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: G-Force
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:49 AM

But China's Co2 is rising rapidly and is set to continue to do so. Ditto India's.

'If the profit motive were dropped from industry and all unnecessary cars were taken off the road we wouldn't have had this situation in the first place'

.. But the old Soviet Union was possibly the world's worst polluter, not just CO2 but chemicals, waste, you name it. And that's without a profit motive.

No more cars, no more campervans ... no more folk festivals.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:25 AM

I see you're nitpicking again, Nigel. In fact, if you want the EXACT figure, here it is:

Population of the US: 326 million

Population of China: 1,379 million

1,379 divided by 326 equals 4.23.

So, in fact it's slightly worse even than I said for the US. China has MORE THAN four times as many people as the US (slightly), yet produces less than twice as much CO2, as measured on the per capita basis. Happy to make that micro-correction. Now hands up anyone who thinks the difference between four times as many and 4.23 times as many destroys my argument. Back in your hole, please, Nigel.

..............................................................................................................

Jim, Dave, Raggytash, John, can we all PLEASE just totally blank Iains. He has learned nothing from his suspensions. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:22 AM

A stunning example of a non sequitur!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM

"If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply"
YThat is what I saidf - keep the poor starved top save the world
That is a totally inhuman statement
If the profit motive were dropped from industry and all unnecessary cars were taken off the road we wouldn't have had this situation in the first place
It is the system we live under which is both destroying our planet and many of the people inhabiting that
Pointing to countries we support, arm and trade with is meaningless - we are part of their destructive industriesby trading with them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:21 AM

"Perhaps then you'd stop implying that's it's somehow the third world that's causing the problem by crowding us all out."

Perhaps you would care to show me where I implied that?

Perhaps you are following on from what a certain poster thinks I said.

For a supposed well educated scientist perhaps a little fact checking is in order before jumping to conclusions.
Had I wished to demonstrate per capita energy consumption by country I would have done so. It rather depends upon what point one is making.
For example the US 2011 used 7032kg equivalent of oil per capita, Bangladesh by contrast only 205kg.
This illustrates perfectly the point I made in a previous post:
"If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply."

To which the response came:
Now there's a thought starve the world to save it
I leave you to decide how that can possibly be derived from what I said previously. It would take us further forward if you can demonstrate any error in my logic. Energy is simply one of many metrics available to measure relative affluence/poverty.

Perhaps you would like a per capita energy consumption by ethnicity so you can then accuse me of racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:34 AM

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:31 AM

Snap
Cross posted there T
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:24 AM

It's as reasonable for putting the blame on someone else rather than accepting our own responsibility for what has happened to the planet
Britain no longer has an industry worth speaking about so it is reliant on buying elsewhere - the dirty nations are the main sources of our goods and we have no way of influencing how they produce their products
We trade in a big way with China and even before the dirty deed is done on Brexit plans are afoot to enhance that trade - we are part of their pouring their filth into the atmosphere
A major effect on the atmosphere has always been vehicle emissions yet, rather than produce a half decent transport system, the use of cars is encouraged to the point of making our roads unusable
Our rivers and oceans are being pollute with largely unnecessary plastics whose purpose is to sell products for profit
Sea and wind power was being discussed and experimented with when I was a teenager, yet it is only now it is being introduced in a half-arsed manner, and only then, when it it profitable to do so.
Our goods are produced to be disposable rather than repairable because it is more profitable top do so - profit takes precedence over efficiency and economy
We live in a society based on waste - waste of materials, of energy, and worst of all, of human resources and potential
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 03:20 AM

The cull will probably happen naturally - my money is on ebola spreading to heavily populated cities.

Small steps - Lidl in Ireland has just announced that it's stopping packing its fruit and veg in single-use plastic, and it's no longer going to pack fish in the black plastic that's unrecyclable.

Trouble with the way we drive: I don't know about other countries, but in Ireland, in the last Census, 69% of car journeys were made with just one person in the car. I know in France there's a high use of BlaBlaCar, a ride sharing app that works like AirBnB - if you're going from Paris to Nice, say, you look up people who are driving there on the same day, check their profile and if you like the look of them, you ask them for a ride. They check your profile and if they say yes, you go there together in their car. There's a fee, 20% of which goes to the BlaBlaCar company.

The other problem is that buses are now seen as transport for the poor in a lot of countries - this wasn't always so; when I was a kid, back in the Neolithic, everyone in our chi-chi suburb took the bus into "town" or into nearby shopping areas, or to the beach for a swim. Any cars were for business, or at weekends and holiday time, for bringing the family to the mountains or another coast. (Mind you, then, well-off families simply abandoned the breadwinner for the whole summer and went off to the seaside, with the breadwinner parachuting in for occasional visits!)

We've become terribly addicted to our cars, and really don't see how harmful they are. How they divide us from each other, destroy villages (both rural and within cities). How they make us lonely and sad and isolated. How they ruin our poor environment, with farms and gardens and our own lungs filled with the filth they emit…

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:29 PM

"The population of China is just about exactly four times the population of the US. "

Is that an oxymoron?
Does it have any place in an attempt to put forward a reasoned argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:24 PM

Well perhaps the following very simple numbers will help YOU to "understand the argument" a little better than you currently appear to:.

The population of China is just about exactly four times the population of the US.

The per capita carbon dioxide production of China is 7.6 tonnes per annum.

The per capita carbon dioxide production of the US is 16.4 tonnes per annum.

So China produces more CO2 than the US. No shit, Sherlock: China has four times as many people. But China does not produce four times as much CO2. China produces less than twice as much. Geddit?

Furthermore, China has made gargantuan efforts to limit its emissions, in its own interests admittedly, but at least it's having a go. The US has been a serial huge offender in terms of emissions per capita for decades and is now pulling out of the Paris accord. No politician in the US dare even suggest increasing fuel duty in any significant way and no politician in the US dare suggest that people abandon their six-pot twenty-to-the-gallon guzzlers in favour of less fuel-greedy models. Hope this helps. And do take a look at the emissions-per-capita table country by country. Perhaps then you'd stop implying that's it's somehow the third world that's causing the problem by crowding us all out.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:51 PM

To counter an argument it is first required that it is understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:50 PM

Multi tasking to meet a deadline strikes again Don

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:34 PM

Your thinker is faster than your typer.

purges are back in political thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:26 PM

Take the profit ethic out of our economies and you have haldf of the ecoogical problems solved

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 02:23 PM

"As for silly talk about reducing the world population,"
Then what relevance does population have to the report
"If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply."
Now there's a thought starve the world to save it
More and more a subject for 'The Horror Channel' as the suggestions cvome rolling in
And the partonsing privilege - "given" underlines that
Who do yuo people think you are to believe life and death cAN BE METED OUT TO SUIT SOCIETY
Your 'wahatboutist' list is meaningless other than to absolve Britain from doing anything



Your

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:56 PM

Too many people - what are you suggesting - a cull ?

As for silly talk about reducing the world population,

enuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:55 PM

10 years ago the US dept of defense was ahead
with the report on climate change when we said
- oh dear!
We will run out of - oh dears in mere years.
and in a daze we'll recall the good old days
and say
oh dear

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:51 PM

China 28.2%
US 16%
India 6.2%
Russia 4.33%
Japan 3.7%
Germany 2.3%
Korea 1.8%
Iran 1.7%
Canada 1.7%
Saudi Arabia 1.6%

Largest producers of CO2 emissions worldwide in 2016, based on their share of global CO2 emissions

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:31 PM

Steve I always suspected you leaned toward obliteration over negotiation.
To bicker is never quicker, extinction is our distinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:22 PM

Your link is outdated by the current report
The link is 2017. The last year of complete figures, therefore up to date, not outdated.

There is plenty of room on the planet and enough for all

1)If the 80% in poverty were given a lifestyle to take them out of poverty co2 emissions would rise sharply.

2)Resources are finite. The lowhanging fruit is gone, fracking is expensive, all resources are becoming progressively more expensive to produce.
3)We are wasteful yet 80% have a minimal access to anything.
4)We are already fighting energy wars in Syria and have destroyed the nation states of Iraq and Libya. Is Iran next? and then to goad the bear?
5)Water wars are just around the corner, Who has the headwaters of the
Tigris and Euphrates and can hold Syria and Iraq to ransom
6)Transport is the largest single CO2 emitter in the UK (In the EU it is 20% of emissions)
Who is going to be brave enough to ban cars? Each time emission standards are tightened it is the poorer members of society that are penalized.

"The unhealthy political influence the industry exerts over some member states with important car industries (Germany,Italy,Spain, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania) and also,on occasion,the European Commission leads to regulations that are not fit for purpose such
as the new car CO2 regulation for post 2020."

The only way western societies will significantly curb their emissions is by drastic lifestyle changes. There will need to be some dramatic shocks to initiate that!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:19 PM

I may be prejudiced, but I seem to believe that China is a major polluter of the Earth with their heavy industry and emissions.

My eating no meat probably wouldn't remedy much.

And we never had any children, so can't be accused of contributing to the over-population of the planet.

My village has no bus, and is miles from anywhere. Our car is essential. (Too old to pedal a bike!)

So - not guilty M'Lud!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 01:03 PM

Atmospheric carbon dioxide is still rising and now exceeds 0.04%. Anyone remember being told at school that it was 0.03%?

Donuel is right. Everything we do is too little, too late (though that's no excuse for stopping trying). We can carry on covering the planet with windmills and solar panels. Or we can go nuclear. The former is nowhere near effective enough and the latter would take decades to establish on any realistic scale. Somebody on the wireless today told me to stop eating meat (sod off) and take the bus instead of driving. Whoever that was doesn't live in north Cornwall.

As for silly talk about reducing the world population, well if we obliterated the USA (5% of the population) we would reduce emissions by 18%. AND there would be no Trump. Any takers?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:17 PM

Your link is outdated by the current report
Too many people - what are you suggesting - a cull ?
There is plenty of room on the planet and enough for all

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 12:03 PM

The realistic time to slow the disaster was Al Gore but the court voted for Bush who reversed all progress. Then the Cheney secret energy plan released more methane than ever before through fracking. A future Paris promise was made by Obama but now we have full heat ahead with Trump.

Time was up long ago regarding extreme consequences. We are at an extreme extinction rate already.

too little too late

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:57 AM

Try pasting:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/695930/2017_Provisional_Emissions_statistics_2.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 11:50 AM

NOT FOUND

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:59 AM

The uk story:


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/695930/2017_Provisional_Emission

Page 9 interesting statistcs esp.
                                           energy
                                           domestic usage
                                           Transportation.
The only problem with the opening post is trying to distinguish betwee the facts, the theoretical outcomes and the political
blusterings.

There is also a requirement to accept western lifestyles are profligate
and that there are simply too many people in the world, and of those an uncomfortably high percentage deserve a far higher standard of living that they receive at present.(80% live in poverty)

Subject: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 10:23 AM

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
Jim Carroll