BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:12 AM

"Past societies that have outgrown their resource base have collapsed."
There is not danger of that happening yet - the existing resources are sufficient to sustain us all - the fact that it is wasted and misused and often ignored is down to the system we live under, not the number of people
Systems are man-made and any system that can not provide for all its people is no longer fir for purpose and needs to be replaced with one that caters for all
Unfortunately, those in control benefit from things being left as they are
No Government would ever dare declare that they can no longer represent all the people as you have continually done   
What are you suggesting?
The Chinese came in for a lot of stick for attempting to control birth rates not too long ago - is that what you are suggesting
There is much concern about the rapidly growing gap between haves and have nots - in Britain included
Are you suggesting it should be allowed to continue widening?
We are now in a situation in Britain where people are being forced either to take any job on offer or starve
Are you supporting theat particular concept ?
Society is sick and needs healing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:15 AM

"The answer lies with reforming society, not protecting the status quo"



The answer lies with finding ways of preserving society and making it far more resilient. Shortly it may turn out to be that serious.
On another tack. The average household per capita electricity consumption in the UK is 2000kw/hrs, in the US 5000kw/hrs.
By contrast Malawi 24kw/hr, Sierra Leone 4kw/hr
per capita consumption

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

If you take UK per capita consumption and raise everyone to that level, the co2 levels would be raised significantly. Also how do you prevent China from increasing its co2 levels? After all it is producing widgets for the world, especially in the field of telecommunications NO more growth = no more widgets. How do you square that circle?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:19 AM

THIS BEATS SOUNDBITES AND BLAMING OVERPOPULATION ANY DAY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 06:35 AM

One version of a global warming animation.

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/new-video-visualizes-a-century-of-global-warming-in-just-35-seconds

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:07 AM

"No Government would ever dare declare that they can no longer represent all the people as you have continually done"
What on earth has that to do with the price of tea in China?
perhaps you would show me how you derived the deranged statement above.
I look forward to seeing myself quoted to substantiate your allegation. As shaw would say. Let's be having your proof.
Or is it another of your famous fairy tales?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:14 AM

"What on earth has that to do with the price of tea in China?"
You appear to be suggesting that Governments can't do anything about the welfare and well being of its people because, if they did they world be adding to the problems of climate change - that is your sole argument so far - you are offering nothing else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 08:44 AM

"You appear to be suggesting that Governments can't do anything about the welfare and well being of its people because, if they did they world be adding to the problems of climate change - that is your sole argument so far - you are offering nothing else"
Rubbish!
Rationing energy, banning cars, and to stop trucking food long distances in the western world is not going to happen in the immediate future, especially in America (the most wasteful nation on earth)
Likewise lifting the 80%out of poverty is not going to happen in the immediate future. There is neither the will, nor the resources. You cannot stifle growth in emerging economies, especially when your own is clearly squandering resources with gay abandon. Burning fossil fuels is not going to stop overnight. Perhaps Maggie should be elevated to sainthood for supposedly crippling the coal industry and thus vastly diminishing our carbon footprint at a stroke.
We have had both the major political parties hold their conventions recently. How green were their credentials? Hardly a mention.
Politics have got involved as carbon can be made/is a cash cow through taxation.
It is clear most politicians have no idea as to how high the stakes are. If only focused on the next election how can they take an interest in events decades down the road? It is a sobering thought that ice core analysis suggests that rapid change can occur on less than decadal time scales. It would seem most only pay lip service to the idea of climate change,what is needed is a trigger event to concentrate minds. Thus far none have occurred.
broad over view

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995507/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC34297/

I suggest you study closely the timescale for the termination of the Younger Dryas in the last paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:29 AM

Yes some climate change happens in seconds from impact phenomena and some change comes slowly. The current change is in between.

The evidence of mammals as large as Mammoths being frozen solid in mid chew is dramatic. Ice merely cooberates other evidence.

Methane has over twice the detrimental greenhouse gas effect of CO2.
The scope of methane release via fracking is tremendous. Compounding myriad factors such as melted perma frost decay and ocean bottom effects, suddenly the rate of warming is off the old charts.

It sounds like Jim is seeking answers to save humanity and Iains easily accepts a solution of cutting population by half or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 09:54 AM

"Rationing energy, banning cars, and to stop trucking food long distances in the western world is not going to happen in the immediate future,"
Nobody has suggested any of these things - which are all negative responses anyway
What is necessary are positive responses - some of which have already been suggested - development of a practical and usable public transport system, the use of energy-producing systems that have already been researched, but abandoned because they would impinge on the profits of ecology-harming industries - development if development of non-profit solar energy systems, restriction on the use of unnecessary plastics...... a whole range of first-steps
Basically, the profit incentive needs to be taken out of all necessities and replaced by
Oil is one of the greatest accelerating causes of not only ecological damage, but world peace - that fact needs to be recognised and dealt with if we're going to pass on a livable planet to our kids

I totally agree about fracking - UTTER MADNESS given the increasing occurrence of earthquakes around the golbe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 10:17 AM

Hurricane Michael's karma is about to run over Rick Scott's dogma

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 18 - 11:33 AM

"Iains easily accepts a solution of cutting population by half or more."
Donuel you are in bad company. You are making assumptions. Where have I suggested the solution you quote me on?

I look forward to seeing you offer the evidence.

"Nobody has suggested any of these things - which are all negative responses anyway."
Oh Dear! only a negative response will reduce a carbon footprint. A positive one increases it.
'Twould seem you advocate maintainance of the status quo. That ain't going to achieve anything, is it?

Rationing energy, banning cars, and to stop trucking food long distances in the western world. These items contribute significantly to a person's carbon foot print.


http://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=4849&printable=1

a rather old article but it demonstrates the components od an individuals carbon footprint.
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/your-carbon-footprint-revealed-climate-change-report-finds-we-each-prod

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 08:30 AM

I do not quote you. I am entitled to a perception without obeying your rules. You are entitled to yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 10:43 AM

Meanwhile in Florida but nowhere near the area affected by the hurricane:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/fabiola-santiago/article219330305.html

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:09 AM

Here on the est Coast of Ireland we are battening down the harches in preparation of yet another MAJOR STORM
Who knows - maybe it'll see of enough people to cut down our population and solve all out ecological problems !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 11:13 AM

'Perhaps Maggie should be elevated to sainthood for supposedly crippling the coal industry and thus vastly diminishing our carbon footprint at a stroke."

Well I suppose that the imported Saudi oil, Russian gas and that stuff we'll soon be fracking doesn't have any carbon in it...

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 01:15 PM

"Well I suppose that the imported Saudi oil, Russian gas and that stuff we'll soon be fracking doesn't have any carbon in it... "

Well you may believe that but the real scientists here do not!

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 18 - 02:17 PM

According to the Carbon Brief website, the amount of carbon dioxide sent into the atmosphere last year totalled 381 million tonnes, compared to 382 million tonnes in 1894, after coal emissions slumped by more than 50 per cent.

http://www.whebgroup.com/scaling-up-green-investments-from-ambition-to-asset-allocation/

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 03:51 AM

90 COMPANIES and GLOBAL WARMING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 05:06 AM

I don't think nuclear power is as some people think carbon neutral, it produces carbon at many stages including mining, which is getting harder as the sources become rarer and harder to mine. The waste from power stations is a real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 06:57 AM

Nuclearpower not low carbon

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

Well making wind turbines and solar panels also consumes carbon. Once the devices are in place, carbon consumption dries up. It's then a question of how much they can then compensate for the carbon used in their manufacture. The same applies to installations that burn coal, oil or gas to generate electricity, the difference being that they spend their whole lives consuming carbon, not just during their manufacture and commissioning. So rethink your nuclear opinion with that in mind. Yes there's the problem of waste disposal. I suppose there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:49 AM

The carbon footprint of nuclear power stations is not that clear. Calculations can be done for construction and life cycle, but decommissioning is something of a grey area.

a few years old
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph241/gerrard1/

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 09:54 AM

Iains I would appreciate it if you would just hurry up and develop cheap reliable localized fusion power for the planet. The alternatives are sounding dismal.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 18 - 10:09 AM

Donuel I may not be stupid but neither am I particularly clever. Far, far more clever people than I have struggled with fusion for years. I do not believe success has been achieved for more than milliseconds, though I could be wrong.
Perhaps an appreciation of the damage being done to the planet by out existence may spur development of the utopian dream,

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/nuclear-fusion-reactor-sun-core-temperature

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 10:55 AM

I hope some of you realize that the - words - CLIMATE CHANGE and GLOBAL WARMING are illegal and banned in Florida in any government capacity including the internet. Governor Scott Walker is respondsible for law against word.


The federal EPA website on global warming has also been banned by TRUMP.

I hope the big brother observance of banned words does not extend here.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 12:39 PM

Some mothers do 'ave em!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/07/epa-head-scott-pruitt-says-global-warming-may-help-humans-flourish

Whereas Nasa states:

https://climate.nasa.gov/

Who lost the hymn book?

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 06:43 PM

Its OK.
Donald Trump said the climate will change back. Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 03:41 AM

It probably will.   Sometime is the not so immediate future.
One person's view
https://www.astrobio.net/climate/paleoclimate-points-to-rapid-changes/

and for geeks - a starting point.
https://globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/kling/paleoclimate/paleoclimate.html

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:03 AM

Yes he is probably right, but it would require the extinction of all species capable of consuming fossil fuels, and the growth of a lot of plants which locked carbon in. Shouldn't take more than 400 million years.

The scary thing in Iain's second link is Figure 4, given that the horizontal axis is logarithmic.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 06:06 AM

There is a downside to warming that is kept very low key. Some suggest the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (Amoc), has weakened by 15% since 1950, thanks to melting Greenland ice and ocean warming making sea water less dense and more buoyant.
At the onset of the younger Dryas(cold)period it is postulated by some that it was caused by freshwater ponding trapped along the southern ice cap(roughly great lakes)that broke out into the north west Atlantic and stopped the Amoc abruptly for 1500years.

Could make northern europe a tad chilly if we happen to have a round two.

Subject: RE: BS: Climate Change Report - oh dear !
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 08:04 AM

Orbital variation would cause an infrequent ice age that we are now countering/avoiding with man made global warming but exceeding a certain point would will cause a runaway event. If we have no control of heating we could be looking at no intelligent life on this planet 21,000 years from now. Now that is the set up line for arguing if there is intelligent life now.
I say there is, but temporary comfort and wealth are enough to lure many humans away from doing the right thing.

In conclusion if we do nothing natural causes for global warming will compound the humn causes for global heat increase.

Yes Virginia we can get as hot as Venus