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Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5

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Richie 15 Oct 18 - 10:39 AM
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Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 10:39 AM

Hi,

Continuing our study of James Madison Carpenter collection and the Child Ballads we are now on Child 13 known as "My Son David/Son Davie" or "What's the Blood?" which Child has titled "Edward" after Percy's version, Child Ab. The legitimacy of Percy's version and hence Child's title has been questioned and I will be using the first two titles and other titles in reference to Child 13.

The Carpenter versions are from the United States which means the ballad was not found in tradition by Carpenter in Scotland and England in the early 1930s.

Along with Carpenter's versions from the US which are directly tied to North Carolina/Virginia and the Brown Collection will be a discussion of Child 13.

Child 13 is a fratricide, while Child Ab (Percy) is a patricide, while the motive (fighting over a little bush). The "little bush" has been called a kenning (Barry and others) for a relationship of the brothers with a younger sister.

The classic Scottish version was sung by Jeannie Robertson who learned the ballad from her mother when her brother and father were off fighting in World War I (1914-1918). I've put a date of c.1916 which is approximate. Robertson would have been 8 years old at that time. It was recorded from her many times in the 1950s and 60s.

MY SON DAVID Sung by Jeannie Robertson (Mrs. Jean Higgins), Aberdeenshire; Recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1952; Transcribed by Francis Collinson.

1. Oh what's the blood that's on your sword?
My son David, Ho son David,
What's the blood 'at's on your sword?
come promise tell me true.

2. Oh that's the blood of my grey meir;
Hey lady mother, Ho lady mother,
That's the blood of my grey meir
Because it wouldna rule by me.

3. O that blood it is ower clear;
My son David, etc.
That blood it is ower clear,
Come promise tell me true.

4. O that's the blood of my grey hound
Hey lady mother, etc.
That's the blood of my grey hound
Because it wouldna rule by me.

5. O that blood it is ower clear;
My son David, etc.
That blood it is ower clear,
Come promise tell me true.

6. O that's the blood of my brother John,
Hey lady mother, etc.
That's the blood of my brother John
Because he wouldna rule by me.

7. O when will you come back again,
My son David, etc.
When will you come back again
Come promise tell me true.

8. When the sun and moon meets in yon glen,
Hey lady mother, etc.
When the sun and moon meets in yon glen,
Will I return again.

The US versions, which by my guestimation date to at least the late 1700s, are represented by Sharp A, the Hicks version and Davis D- the Moncure version- both of which are very old.

As always, comments are welcome. I will post the Carpenter versions shortly,

Richie


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Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 11:06 AM

It's Regina Higgins, [ Jeanne Robertson ]

Dave H


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Subject: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 12:07 PM

Hi,

Robertson sang My Son David a number of times between 1952 and 1968 when she stopped performing. In Herschel Gower's interview, "Jeannie Robertson: Portrait of a Traditional Singer," Scottish Studies, 12 (1968) a murder motive of sibling jealously is given:

HG There's another ballad-"My Son David"-that you are often asked to sing, and in your version David says:
O I'm gang awa' in a bottomless boat
And I'll never return again....
Now what exactly do you think he meant when he told his mother that?

JR Well, it's very plain to be seen what he meant. If he was gang awa' in a bottomless boat-well, he was gang to droon himsel'. He wad never come back. He was gang to destroy his ain sel'.

HG And what do you think the two brothers fell out about?

JR The thing was that David was oldest and he was heir to everything, and the other brother was a very selfish, jealous brother. He wanted for nothin', he had everything too. But he didnae want that. He wanted to be the master, you see, o' the castle or fat ever it was. And he wanted to kill his brother and become master. So his mother likit David even better than fat she likit the other one. So when he tried to kill his brother, well, of course, it was a natural thing for David to fight to defend his sel'. So he killed his brother.

HG So this is a story of killing instead of being killed?

JR But David fought him in a fair fight and killed him.

HG That explains your version.

JR We hadnae enough o' the ballad, actually, to tell the whole story.

This simple explanation of motive is not contradicted by the brother's destruction of the "bush that never a tree." It's often some small incident which triggers a fight that leads to murder. The various "incest" theories seem to be wild speculation.

Do you agree?

Richie


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Subject: RE:Origins:James Madison Carpenter-Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 12:42 PM

Hi,

Here's a North Carolina/Virginia version from Carpenter: James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/7/1/A, p. 10597.

"Edward." Sung by James York of Farmington, North Carolina, no date given but after 1941. This is the version sung by Horton Barker of Virginia in 1941 and included in Brown Collection, volume 4. The assumption is that York, a singer for Abrams in the late 1930s and also the Brown Collection learned his version from Barker or via Abrams recording of Barker.

1 "How come that blood on your knife, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me!"
"It is the blood of old grey horse,
That plowed the fields for me, me, me,
That plowed the fields for me."
"It does look too red for the old grey horse
That plowed the fields for thee, thee, thee,
That plowed the fields for thee."

2. "How come that blood on your knife, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me!"
"It is the blood of the guinea greyhound
That ran the deer for me, me, me,
That ran the deer for me.
"It does look too red for the guinea greyhound
That plowed the fields for thee, thee, thee,
That plowed the fields for thee."

3 "How come that blood on your knife, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
"It is the blood of my youngest brother
Who went away with me, me, me.
Who went away with me."

4 "And what did you fall out about?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
Because he cut a little apple bush
That soon would've made a tree, tree, tree,
That soon would've made a tree.

5 "And what will you do now, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
"I'll set my foot into yonder ship
And I'll sail across the sea, sea, sea,
And I'll sail across the sea."

6 "And when will you come back, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
"When the sun sets into yonder sycamore tree,
And that will never be, be, be,
And that will never be."

7 "And what will become of your dear little boy?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
"The world to wander in up and down,
For he never shall know of me, me, me.
For he never shall know of me."

8 "And what will become of your wife, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
"Sorrow and trouble all of her life,
For she'll see no more of me, me, me.
For she'll see no more of me.

9 "And what will you leave to your mother, dear son?
Oh, dear son, tell me."
"The curse of God I leave to you
For bringing this trouble on me, me, me,
For bringing this trouble on me."

Richie


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Subject: RE:Origins:James Madison Carpenter-Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 02:51 PM

Hi,

The "Edward" titles found in Carpenter are supplied by collectors and are not local titles. Although Barker knew the title as Edward he was certainly told that was the title. The name appears to have been derived mainly from Percy's title which is likely a recreation.

The following version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/91 and is probably from the same time period (early 1940s).

"Edward." Given by Professor Philip Furness of Guilford College, NC from Miss Alice Cummings of Greensboro NC, no date given. This version is from the same general area of Brown A (Elon College, near Greensboro).

1 "How come that blood on your shirt?
My son, pray tell unto me."
"I got it off my bright guinea dog
Who hunts the woods with me."

2. "O isn't it too bright for your bright guinea horse?
My son, pray tell unto me."
"I got it off my bright guinea horse
Who plows the woods with me."

3. "O isn't it too bright for your bright guinea horse
My son, pray tell unto me."
"I got it off my brother's shirt
Who walks the roads with me."

4. "And what were you quarreling about?
My son, pray tell unto me."
We were cutting down a hazelnut bush
That amounts to as hazelnut tree.

5. "And what will you do when this is found out?
My son, pray tell unto me."
"I'll set my foot in a handsome little boat
And sail across the sea."

6. "And what will you do with your handsome little wife?
My son, pray tell unto me."
"I'll set her foot in a handsome little boat
And she'll sail across the sea."

7. "And what will you do with those three little babes?
My son, pray tell unto me."
"I'll leave them at home with my own dear father,
That he'll remember me."

8. "And when will you come back again?
My son, pray tell unto me."
"When the moon shall rise in the north,
And that shall never be."


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Subject: RE:Origins:James Madison Carpenter-Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 04:09 PM

Welcome back, Richie.
I'll have a look see what I have. I know there are versions from Kent.


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Subject: RE:Origins:James Madison Carpenter-Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 15 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM

Hi,

The last Carpenter version is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/6/5/A, pp. 09583-09584 and was at one time incorrectly listed under Lizie Wan. An alternative title "Edward, Edward" was also given.

"Edward, Edward" sung by Chloe Michaels of Boone, NC about 1940[1]. She learned most of her ballads from her father. D.C. Michaels, in the early 1900s.

"Oh what will you do when your father comes home,
My son, come tell unto me?"
"I'll take myself from home, dear mother[2],
And sail the deep blue sea."

"When are you coming home again?
My son, come tell unto me?"
"When the moon turns into blood dear mother,
And you know that will never be."

"And what will you do with your wife and child?
My son, come tell unto me."
"I'll leave them here with you, dear mother,
To keep you company."

1. a date of August 1931 is also given with the music notation. A recording under Child 200 is given.
2. The variant "I'll put my foot in a ship, dear mother" appears on a single stanza of text in the Carpenter collection which is on a page with other stanzas of text from other singers.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 12:36 PM

Hi,

Here's Grundtvig's Danish version A with my translation. Corrections welcome.

From: Danmarks gamle folkeviser by Grundtvig, Sven, 1824-1883. ed; Olrik, Axel, 1864-1917. ed; Carlsbergfondet (Copenhagen, Denmark); Samfundet til den danske literaturs fremme, publication date 1853.

SVEND I ROSENSGAARD

A. (Fra Sydsælland. Sungen af en gammel Kone i Rønnebæk ved Næstved; optegnet 1844 og 1846 af Frøken Frantziska Carlsen.)

1. "Hvor har du været saa længe?
Svend i Rosensgaard!"
»Og jeg har været i enge,
kære Moder vor!
I vente mig sent eller aldrig!"

2. "Hvor for er dit Sværd saa blodigt?"
»For jeg har dræbt min Broder."

3. „Hvor vil du dig hen vende?"
„Jeg vil af Landet rende."

4. „Hvor vil du gøre af Hustruen din?"
„Hun skal spinde for Føden sin."

5. „Hvor vil du gøre af Børnene dine?"
„Jeg vil sætte dem til Vemierne mine."

6. „Naar vil du dig hjem vende?"
„Naar alle Kvinder bliver Enke."

7. „Naar bliver alle Kvinder Enke?"
„Naar alle Mænd bliver døde."

8. „Naar bliver alle Mænd døde?"
„Naar Huse og Gaarde bliver øde."

9. „Naar bliver Huse og Gaarde øde?"
„Naar vi ser hvide Ravne."

10. "Naar ser vi hvide Ravne?'
"Naar vi ser sorte Svaner."

11. "Naar ser vi sorte Svaner?"
"Naar vi ser Fjedren synke."

12. ,Naar ser vi Fjedren synke?"
"Nåar vi ser Stenen flyde."

13. "Naar ser vi Stenen flyde?"
"Naar vi ser Havet brænde.

14. „Naar ser vi Havet brænde?
Svend i Rosensgaard!"
"Naar vi ser Verdens Ende,
kære Moder vor!

* * * *

A. (From South Zealand. Sungen of an old wife in Rønnebæk near Næstved; Recorded 1844 and 1846 by Miss Frantziska Carlsen.)

1. "Where have you been so long?
Svend in the rose garden."
"I've been to meadow's end,
O my dear mother,
I shall be home late or never!"

2. "Why is your sword so bloody?"
"Because I have killed my brother."

3. "Where do you want to turn?"
"I will flee from this country."

4. "What do you want to do with your wife?"
"She's going to spin for her food."

5. "What do you want to do your children?"
"I will place them with my friends."

6. "When will you return home?"
"When all women become widows."

7. "When will all women become widows?"
"When all men are dead."

8. "When will all men die?"
"When their farm houses are desolate."

9. "When will the farm houses be desolate?"
"When we see white ravens."

10. "When will we see white ravens?"
"When we see black swans."

11. "When do we see black swans?"
"When we see the feathers sinking."

12. "When do we see the feathers sink?"
"When we see the stones floating."

13. "When do we see the stone floating?"
"When we see the sea burning."

14. "When do we see the sea burn?
Svend in Rosensgaard!"
"When we see the world end,
O my dear mother,
I shall be home late or never."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 01:14 PM

Hi,

Here's Grundtvig B and C. Corrections welcome for my quick translations:

B. (Fra Fyn. Skattegraveren II (1884) Stykke 459; optegnet af Gaardejer Lars Frederiksen i Ryslinge efter hans Moder; hun kunde ikke huske, om der havde været flere Vers.)

1."Hvornaar mon jeg dig vente?
Svend i Rosenslund!"
Naar Stenene de flyder,
min hjærtens-kære Mor!"

2. „Hvomaar saa flyder Stenene?"
„Naar Fjerene de synker."

3. „Hvornaar saa synker Fjerene?"
^Naar alle Piger bliver giftede."

4. „Hvornaar bliver alle Piger giftede?
Svend i Rosenslund!"
„Naar Solen den staar norden op,
min hjærtens-kære Mor!"

B. (From Funen. The Collection II (1884) Piece 459; Written down by Gaardejer Lars Frederiksen in Ryslinge after his mother; she could not remember if there had been more verses.)

1. "When will you return?
Svend in the rose land!"
"When the stones they float,
My dear dear mother! "

2. "When do the stones float?"
"When the birds are sinking."

3. "When do the feathers sink?"
"When all girls get married."

4. "When will all girls get married?
Svend in rose land!"
"When the sun it rises north,
My dear dear mother!"

* * * *

C. (Fra Telemarken. Optegnet af S. Bugge efter Targjei Kosi i Vraadal, hun havde lært Visen af Nils Polmann, en Kaptajnssøn i Flaabygd.)

1. "Hor hev du vori saa lengje?
I Svenn i Rosensgaar!"
I enge hos drenge,
kjær moder vaar;
du venter mig sent eller aldrig!"


2. "Kvi er dit bryst saa blodigt?
"Folen meg trødde."

3. »Kvi er dit sverd saa blodigt?'
"Jeg har dræbt min broder."

4. „Kvi rider du af veien?"
„Jeg vil rømme af landet."

5. „Naar kommer du tilbage?"
„Naar stenene flyle."

6. „Naar fly ter stenen?"
„Naar fjærene søkke."

7. „Naar søkker fjæri?"
„Naar ravnen den kvitnar."

8. „Naar kvitnar ravnen?
I Svenn i Rosensgaar!"
„Det sker dog aldrig,
kjær moder vaar;
du venter mig sent eller aldrig!"


C. (From Telemark. Recorded by S. Bugge after Targjei Kosi in Vrådal, she had learned the ballad from Nils Polmann, a Captain's son in Flaabygd.)

1. "Where did you stay so long?
Svenn of the rose garden!"
"In the company of my brother,
My dear mother
You'll wait for me late or never!"

2. "Why is your chest so bloody?
"My foolish deed."

3. "Why is your sword so bloody?"
"I've killed my brother."

4. "Why are you driving from the road?"
"I want to escape from the country."

5. "When are you coming back?"
"When stones fly."

6. "When will stones fly?"
"When feathers sink."

7. "When will feather's sink?"
"When the ravens die."

8. "When will ravens die?
Svenn of the rose garden!"
"It never, never happens,
My dear mother
You'll wait for me late or never!"


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 02:07 PM

Interesting slant on this. There is much more of the 'impossibilities' theme in these variants, but it's easy to see where in some British versions the 'sun and the moon meeting in the sky' come from. I think 'The Cruel Brother' 'Son David' and 'Lucy Wan' are all closely related and all derive from Scandinavian versions. 'Lucy Wan' I think, (only a hunch, I can't prove it) is a fairly recent development of the theme, probably 18th century.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 02:34 PM

Hi,

There are four Swedish versions mentioned by Child-- this is Child's Swedish B, which dates back to the early 1800s at least. It's taken from Svenska Folkvisor by E. G. Geijer and A. A. Afzelius (Stockholm 1880) I 288, No. 54, I. From Varmland listed by E. G. Geijer dated 1814 (Jonsson I, p. 420). Corrections welcome.

"Sven i Rosengard"

1 "Hvar har du varit se lange,
Du Sven i rosengard?"
"Jag har varit i stallet,
Kara moder var,
I vinten mig sent, men jag kommer aldrig!"

2 "Hvarfor din klader si blodig?"
"Hvita folan spjernte mig!"

3 Hvartfor ar din skjorta si blodig?
Jag har mordat broder min.

4 Hvart skall du di ta' vagen?
Jag skall rymma af landet.

5 Nar kommer du tillbaka?
Nar korpen han hvitnar

6 Och när hwitnar korpen,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Nar grästen han flyter,
Kara moder war!
I wanten mig sent, Men jag kommer alldrig!
* * * *

1 "Where have you been so long,
Sven in Rosengard?"
"I have been to the stable,
My mother dear,
I will come late or I will come never!"

2 Why are your clothes so bloody?
The white foal (colt) spilled me!

3 Why is your shirt so bloody?
I have murdered my brother.

4 What are you going to do?
I'll flee from this country.

5 When will you come back?
When the raven turns white.

6 And when will the raven turn white,
Sven in Rosegard?
"When the granite floats,
My mother dear!
I was expecting to come late but I will never come!"


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 03:57 PM

Hi Steve,


In general a motive for the murder in the Scandinavian versions is lacking. The Swedish versions do not mention a sword instead the blood is on the clothes.

The following Finnish version is given from H. R. von Schroter's 1819 book, "Finnische Runen, Finnisch und deutsch." It was reprinted with insignificant changes in the second edition (ed. G. H. von Schroter [Stuttgart, 1834) then translated into Swedish in Arwidsson's "Svenska Fornsanger" (Stockholm, 1837). The text and translation are modified from Archer Taylor- note that a Finnish stanza is missing in Taylor's book, I haven't tried to figure out where the mistake occurred but I have a different English translation which is also 14 stanzas.

"Der blutige Sohn"

1 Mistas tulet? mistas tulet?
Minun Pojkain iloinen.
Meren rannalt', meren rannalt',
Muori kuitasein.

2 Mita sielta tekemasta?
Hewostani juottamasta.

3 Missas jakkuis saween teit?
Hewoinen tallais, hewoinen tallais.

4 Missas miekkais wereen teit?
Tapoin ainoan weljeni.

5 Minnekkas siitten ite jouwutl
Muille maille wierahille.

6 Minnekkis wanhan isdis heitat?
Kaykaan metsassa, hakatkaan halkoja,
Elkoon ikinaan minua toiwokoo.

7 Mihinkis wanhan Muoriis heitat?
Istukaan nurkassa, watwokoon tappuroita,
Elkdon ikanaan minua toiwokoo.

8 Mihinkas nuoren pojkais heitat?
Knykndn koulua, karsikaan wihtoja.

9 Minnekkis sen nuoren piikais heitat?
Kaykaan metsassa, syotaan marjoja,
Elkoon ikinddn mina toiwokoo.

10 Millonkas sielta kotian tulet?
Silloin kuin paiwa pohjasta paistaa.

11 Millonkas paiwa pohiasta paistaa?
Silloin kuin kiwi wein paalla pyorii.

12 Millonkas kiwi wein paalla pyorii?
Silloin kuin hoyhen pohjaan painuu.

13 Millonkas hoyhen pohjaan painuu?
Silloin kuin kaikki Tuomiolle tuloo.

* * * *

"The Bloody Son"

1. "Where did you come? Where do you come,
My happy son."
"From the seashore, from the seashore,
My golden (beloved) mother."

2. What did you do there?
I watered the horses.

3. Why is your jacket stained with dirt?
The horses kicked.

4. "How did youe sword get so bloody?"
I killed my only brother.

5. Where will you go now?
Far into foreign countries.

6. Where will you leave your old father?
May he go to the forest and cut wood there;
May he never wish to see me again

7. Where will you leave your old mother?
May she heckle flax,
May she wish never to see me again.

8 Where will you leave your young wife?
Let her go about adorned and take another.

9. Where will you leave your young son?
May he go to school and suffer rods there,

10. Where will you leave your young daughter?
Let her go to the forest to to eat berries
May she wish never to see me again.

11. When will you come home again?
When the sun rises in the north

12. When will the sun rise in the north?
When stones dance on water.

13. When will stones dance on water?
When feathers sink to the bottom.

14 When will feathers sink to the bottom?
When all come to judgement."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 08:55 PM

Hi,

Here's a Swedish broadside for you Steve from 1794. This is parody of Sven i Rosengard. This text is printed from Fyra Stycken Nya Och Lustiga Wisor (Gotheborg: tryckt hos Samuel Norberg 1794). I did a brief but wanting transcription. Anyone?

1 Huru dr du blefwen gifter, du Daniel ungerswan?
Det war som det kunde a ja jamen,
Det war som det kunde a ja jamen.

2 Hwar ligger da din unga Brud?
I hoga loft pia bolstrar bla.

3 Hwar ligger du da sjelfwer?
I laden uppi ho och stra.

4 Hwad ater da din unga Brud?
Aggemat pi silfwerfat.

5 Hwad dter du di sjelfwer?
Sille-rump och hafrestump.

6 Hwad dricker di din unga Brud?
Ohl och mjod och bista win.

7 Hwad dricker di du sjelfwer?
Drickat ar surt och warre a lut.

8 Hwem dantsar med din unga Brud?
Alla wira Pristasoner.

9 Med hwem dantsar du di sjelfwer?
Med Karringer och hixor.

* * * *

1. When are you getting married, Daniel Ungerswan?
The war it could be yes, yes,
The war it could be yes, yes.

2 How is your young bride?
On high ceilings on soft mattress.

3 What are you doing here?
In the barn up and down.

4 What do you give your young bride?
Aggemat pa silfwer barrel.

5 How you are living in the soul
Silly-rump and hafrestump.

6 What are you drinking with your young bride?
Oh and mead and good wine.

7 What do you drink to yourself?
Drunk and cheeky.

8 How is dancing with your young bride?
All our performance.

9 With whom do you dare yourself?
With Karringer and witch.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 09:30 PM

Hi,

The following version from Finland gives a motive. It's from E. Lonnrot Kanteletar elikka suomen kasan aanhoja lauluja ja virsia ("Suomalaisen kirjallisuuden seuran toimituksia" III. [Helsinki 1906]) x-xi No. 4. I give only the opening stanza in Finnish with the refrains. The translation modified from Archer Taylor follows (20 stanzas):

"Velisurmaaja."

1. Mistis tulet, kustas tulet,
Poikani iloinen?
Meren rannalta, meren rannalta,
Aitini kultainen.

* * * *

"From where do you come, my merry son?"
From the seashore, my dear mother [var. maiden].

"What have you done there?"
"I have watered my horse."

Why is your back spotted with clay?
The horse brushed me with its tail.

Why is your foot bloody?
The korse kicked me with its iron [shoes].

Why is your sword bloody?
I stabbed my brother.

Why did you stab your brother?
Because he put my wife to shame.

What will you do now?
Hide myself and flee.

Where do you leave you, father
[var. refrain; Oh, where indeed]- He may knit nets [var. go begging].

Where do you leave your mother?
She may spin at the spinning wheel [var. go begging].

Where do you leave your young wife?
She may look for men [var. bewail me].

Where do you-leave your young son?
He may suffer in school [var. suffer the rod and visit the school].

Where do you leave your young daughter?
She may watch the cattle.

When will you come home?
[Var. refrain "Oh, when indeed?] When the raven becomes white.

When will the raven become white?
When the goose becomes black.

When will the goose become black?
When the stone rolls on the water.

when will the stone roll on the water?
when the feather sinks to the bottom.

When will the feather sink to the bottom?
When the sun shines at midnight.

When will the sun shine at midnight?
When the moon burns with burning heat.

when will the moon buin with burning heat?
when the stars dance in heaven.

"When will the stars dance in heaven?"
"When all come to judgment."

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 11:44 PM

Hi,

This Finnish version (no name given) vaguely reinforces the murder motive from the last post (adultery). It was collected in Kalvola, South Tavastland, Finland from Adolfine Montin, aged thirty-four, by Professor Kaarle Krohn about 1884.

1. Mistas tulet, kustas tulet,
Poikani poloinen?
2. Meren tannalta.
3. [missing]
4. Hevostani uittamasta.
5. Mista miekkas on vereen tullut?
6. Hevonen potkasi.
7. Misti takkis on saveen tullut?
8. Hevonen huiskasi hdnndlldnsi.
9. Miksi han naistani nauratteli ?
10. Menen muille maille vierahille.
11. Mihinkns jatat vaimosi nuoren?
12. Mieron tietzi kulkemahan.

* * * *

1. Whence do you come,
My wretched son?
2. From the seashore.
3. [missing]
4. From swimming my horse.
5. Why is your sword wet?
6. The horse stamped.
7. Why is your coat bespattered with clay?
8. The horse swished its tail
9. Why did he seduce your wife?
10. I shall go to foreign lands.
11. What do you leave your wife?
12. She may go begging.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 12:20 AM

Hi,

The following Finnish version was written down March 17, 1823, in Abo by J.J. Pippingskold (d. 1832). The manuscript is now preserved in the library of the University in Helsingfors (shelfmark D.IV.47). This text has been printed in Kansanopiston laulukirja (1909) 336-37 No. 290.

Suomen kansan uanhat runot [Folk songs of the Finnish People] (Keksi-Inkerin) IV No. 2701. From Moloskoritsa, Central Ingria, Finland.

1 Mist' tulet, kustas tulet,
Poikaini iloinen?
[answer missing].

2. Mist saappaas savvee soit?
Maateita myote kulkeissain,
Likka lintusein.

3. Mistas miekkas verree teit?
Tapoin miehen, saatoin paaha.

4. Mihinkis luulet joutusasi?
Jourein maille vierahille.

5. Mihin jatat sie issiais?
Kiykoon metsass, hakatkoo halkii.

6. Mihin jatat diti seisi?
Istukoo nurkassa, ratvokoo villa.

7. Mihin jdtit veikko seisi?
Punokoo nuora, lyokoo koiraa.

8. Mihin jatat siskoseisi?
Kehratkoo rihmaa, kutokoo kankast.

9. Kensas tuolta peisi poaset?
Kensa korppi valkenoopi.

* * * *

1. From where do you come, my happy son?
[answer missing]

2. Why are your boots dirty?
From wandering along the highway, my girl, my little bird.

3. Why is your sword so bloody?
I have killed a man,
I have put my head in danger.

4. Where do you expect to go?
I went to foreign-lands.

5. What do you leave your father?
Let him wander in the forest, split billets of wood.

6. What do you leave your mother?
Let her sit in the corner, knit wool.

7. What do you leave your brother?
Let him plait a rope, beat a dog.

8. To what do you leave your sister?
Let her spin yarn, weave goods.

9. When will you come back?
When the raven turns white.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 01:45 AM

Hi,

This Finnish version (no date given) Taylor GSF J p.109-110, probably from the early 1900s, is taken from "Svenska literatursillskapet i Finland (Helsingfors)," MS: R3 B VIII i55. A quick translation has been provided below-- corrections welcome.

"Sven i Rosengard."

1 Var har du varit sa lange-
Du Sven i Rosengard-
Jag har varit i stallet- kara moder var-
I vanten mig sent eller aldrig.

2 Yad haver du gjort i stallet?
Jag haver stuckit min broder ihal (ihjal)'

3 Vart skall du taga vagen?
Jag maste val rymma landet.

4 Vart skall du gora av hustrun din?
Hon far val spinna for fodan sin.

5. Vart skall du gora av barnen ?
De maste val ga for andra mans dorr.
(De miste val tigga fodan sin.)

6. Vart skall du av ikren din?
Han far val falla lind pa lind.

7. Nar skall du komma tillbaka?
Nar svanen borjar svartna.

8. Nar borjar svanen svartna?
Ndr korpen borjar vitna.

9. Nar borjar korpen vitnal
Nar stenen barjar flyta.

10. Nar barjar stenen flytal
-du sven i rosengird.-
Nar solen gar upp i vaster
-kdra moder var.-
-I vinten mig sent eller aldrig.-

* * * *

1 Where have you been staying,
Sven in Rosengard?
I have been in the stable, women mother
Where you will see me late or never.

2 What have you done in the stable?
I have beat my brother to death.

3 Where are you going to be safe?
I must choose to leave the country.

4 Where are you going to do your wife?
She's choosing to spin with her foot.

5 Where are you going to leave the children?
The best choice is to leave them at other men's door.
(They must beg for food.)

6. When will you leave your yard?
His father's choice falls born without birth.

7. When will you come back?
When the swan is born black.

8. When does the swan become black?
When the raven turns white.

9. When does the raven become white?
When the stone does float.

10. When does the stone float?
-My Sven i Rosengard.-
When the sun rises in the north, women mother
You expect me late but I'll return never.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 10:19 AM

Hi,

Here are two translations of Child 13 from Archer Taylor's book collected by Swedish Literature Society in Finland, dated early 1900s.

Taylor GSF G, p. 108.
Svenska literatursdllskapet i Finrand (Helsingfors) MS Svensson
6 z9 "Sven i Rosenghrd." -

1 Vart hayer du varit så länge
du sven i rosendegård?
Jaghar varit vid sjöastand,
vid sjostrand, kir moderen min.
-I vdnten mig sent eller aldrig._

2 Vad gjorde du vid sjöastrand?
Jag har vattnat filan min.

3 Vi är din hand sä blodigt
Grå hasten han har sparkat mig.

4 Vi är ditt svdrd si blodigt?
Jag har slagit min broder ihjäl.

5 Vad skall du gora här?
Jag skall nu i landsflykt ganga.

1 Where hay you have been for so long
Sven of Rosendegård?
I have been at the seaside, at the seashore,
My dear mother.
I'm coming home late or never.

2 What did you do at the seaside?
I have watered my foal (colt).

3 Why is your hand bloody?
Gray horse, he has kicked me.

4 Why is your sword so bloody?
I have killed my brother.

5 What are you going to do?
I am going to be exiled now.

Taylor GSF H p. 108-109, dated c. 1815 from: Svenska iiteratursallskapet i Finland (Helsingfors) MS Rancken 274 also listed as GA 67 [: II], F version. Taken from a soldier's wife, Hedda Berg, female of Söderholm, Biskopskulla sn, Uppland (born 1764 in Järlås sn, Uppland, d. 1843 in Bishopskulla; Jonsson I, pp. 429-436). Recorded by A. A. Afzelius in the middle of the 1810s. No title.

1. Var haver du varit så länge
-du sven i rosenvård?
Jag har varit i stallet och skrapa Blacken,
-I omma moders vird.

2. Var haver du blodat din skjortal
Blacken har sparkat mig i magen.

3. Var haver du blodat din värja?
Jag har ihjäl stuckit min broder.


4. Vart skall du taga vägen?
Jag har tänkt att ge mig pa landet.

5. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka?
Nar som granarna bliva med love.

6. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka?
Nar som björkarna bliva med bare.

7. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka?
Nir som korparna bliva vita.

8. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka?
Nar som svanorna bliva svarta

9. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka?
Nar som alla flickor bliva gifta.

10. Nar bliva dF, alla flickor gifta?
Uppa den stora dagen.

11. Nar dr den stora dagen,
-du sven i rosenvrd.-
Uppa den stora domedagen
I omma moders vard.-

Swedish Literature Society in Finland (Helsinki) MS Rancken 274.
No title.

1. Where have you been for so long?
Sven of Rosenvård
I've been to the stables and brushed the black [horse],
My loving mother.

2. How have you blooded your shirt
The black [horse] has kicked me in my stomach.

3. Where did you get that blood?
From killing my brother.

4. Which road are you going to take?
I'm going to flee from the country.

5. When will you return home?
When the spruce grows with love.

6. When will you return home?
Whenever the birches grow alone.

7. When will you return home?
When the crows become white.

8. When will you return home?
When the swans turn black

9. When will you return home?
When all girls get married.

10 When all girls get married?
On the judgement day.

11. When on the judgement day,
Sven of Rosenvard?
When you get up on judgement day
My loving mother.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 12:19 PM

Hi,

In Aminson's 1883 book "Bidrag till Södermanlands äldre kulturhistoria," is a version where the sister is killed by the brother:

Tillägg tili folkvisan n:r 8 med melodi, sidan 32 i första haftet och samma folkvisa i tredje häftet, sid. 37. Följande variant är upptecknad af fiskaren J. P. Johansson i Südermanlands skärgard och benaget meddelad af pastor F. Li. Grundtvig.

Sven i Rosengärd.

1. Ilvar har du varit sä länge,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Jag har varit ät stallet,
Kära moder vär!
I vänten miff sent eller aldrig!

2. Hvad har du gjort ät stallet,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Jag har vattnat hästarna,
Kära moder vär!
I vänten miff sent eller aldrig!

3. Hvad har du fätt pä rocken,
Du Sven i Kosengärd?
Hüsten min har trampat mig,
Kära moder vär!
I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

4. I bad bar du t'iitt pä skjortan,
Du Sven í Rosengärd?
Jag bar slagtat min syster,
Kära moder vár!
I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

5. Hvad skall du ha for detta,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Jag skall rymma ur riket,
Kära moder vár!
I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

6. När kommer du tillbaka,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
När som tallen bär löfven,
Kära moder vär!
I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

7. När bär dä tallen löfven.
Du Sven i Rosengârd?
Jo, när som aleu barrar,
Kära moder vár!
I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

8. Och när dá barrar aleu,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Jo, när som grasten flyter,
Kära moder vár!
I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

9. Och när dä flyter gvästen,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Jo, när som fjädern sjunker,
Kära moder vär!
   I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

10 Och när dä sjunker fjädern,
Du Sven i Rosengärd?
Jo, när som avanen avartnar,
Kära moder vär!
   I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

11. Och när dä avartnar avanen,
Du Sven i Rosengârd?
Jo, när som korpen hvitnar,
Kära moder vár!
   I vänten mig sent eller aldrig!

Tillagg till Folkvisan n:r 15 med melodi i andra haftet, ßidan 17. Följande variant är upptecknad af fiskaren J. P. Johansson i Södermanlande skärgärd och benaget nieddelad af pastor F. L. Grundtvig.
----------------

Addendum to the folk show number 8 with melody, page 32 in the first edition and the same public newspaper in the third booklet, p. 37. The following variant is recorded by the fisherman J. P. Johansson in Südermanlands archipelago and the version was announced by Pastor F. L. Grundtvig.

Sven in Rosengärd.

1. Where have you been for a long time,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
I have been staying in the stable,
Dear mother, please!
You wait for me late or never!

2. What have you done living in the stable,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
I have watered the horses,
Dear mother, please!
You wait for me late or never!

3. Why is there dirt stuck to you,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
My horse has trampled me,
Dear mother, please!
You wait for me late or never!

4. Why is ther blood on your shirt,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
I slaughtered my sister,
Dear Mother, Ours!
You wait for me late or never!

5. What will you do for this,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
I will leave from this area,
Dear Mother, Ours!
You wait for me late or never!

6. When will you come back,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
When do pine tree bears flowers,
Dear mother, please!
You wait for me late or never!

7. When do pine trees bear flowers
You Sven in Rosengârd?
Well, when daughters live alone,
Dear Mother, Ours!
You wait for me late or never!

8. And when do daughters live alone,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
Well, when the granite flies,
Dear Mother, Ours!
You wait for me late or never!

9. And when does granite fly,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
Well, when the feather is sinking,
Dear mother, please!
   You wait for me late or never!

10 And when does the feather sink,
You Sven in Rosengärd?
Yes, when the swan blackens,
Dear mother, please!
   You wait for me late or never!

11. And when does the swan blacken,
You Sven in Rosengârd?
Yes, when the crow is white,
Dear Mother, Ours!
   You wait for me late or never!

Addition to Folkvisan n: r 15 with melody in the other had, ßidan 17. The following variant is recorded by the fisherman J. P. Johansson in Södermanlande archipelago and the song was named by Pastor F. L. Grundtvig.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 02:49 PM

Hi,

I apologize for the quick and presumably inaccurate transcriptions of some Finnish, Danish and Swedish variants which, overlooking mistakes, are simply a way of making examples of the Scandinavian oeuvre accessible. Corrections needed and welcomed!

As Steve has presumed, there is evidence that Child 13 has risen from early Scandinavian versions to have been spread to Britain and from there-- North America.   

Besides the Swedish parody of 1794 is a Swedish "half comic text of 33 verses," in a handwriting as old as the 1640s (see Grundtvig's headnotes) from Stockholm, a transcript in Stephens' collection. The ballad can therefore reasonably be dated in Sweden to the early 1600s.

Percy's recreation of a Scottish ballad, Child B, can't be dated much earlier that c.1750 while Child A can't be dated earlier than the late 1700s (from Motherwell taken from the recitation of an old woman in Kilbarchan c. 1820s). Herd's 1776 version, a compilation of Child 13 with Lizie Wan (Child 51), was printed about the time of Percy's recreation.

The US versions, two of which I'd date to the late 1700s (Hicks family version and the Moncure version), can't be dated earlier than the mid-1700s without new evidence.

* * * *

The motive for murder has been explored by Archer Taylor, Phillips Barry and Tristan Coffin, the latter two basing the murder of the younger brother on jealously/incest arising from the brothers relationship with their sister who through a kenning is represented by the symbolism of the cutting of a "little bush that would not make a tree."

Jeannie Roberston, whose version mysteriously appeared in the 1950s which she claims was learned from her mother about 1916, says that the younger brother was jealous of older bother David who was killed because "he was heir to everything."

The dispute between the brothers about the little bush/willow that was cut down need not be a kenning but was a fight over an unimportant incident which escalated into murder. The vast amount of texts in the UK and US verify this motive. The deeper reason may never be known but Robertson's hypothesis makes sense-- that there was already jealousy and a struggle for dominance between the two brothers and the cutting of the holly bush triggered a deadly fight.

The Scandinavian versions in general show no interest in the motive. Only two versions give an explanation-- it was the seduction of the older brother's wife which was the motive for the murder of the younger brother.

Fratricide seems to be the overwhelming consensus for the murder -- the older brother kills the younger brother. Percy's recreation with patricide with the mother an accomplice is poetic but hardly traditional.   

Opinions?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:16 PM

Wow, Richie! I'm really impressed at your Scandinavian research and your ability to translate them, however loosely. Much respect. I have all the easily accessible translations such as Jamieson, Borrow, Dal, Prior, Grey etc.

The sister version of Sven I Rosengard has implications for Lucy Wan and could possibly have suggested it. I have several translations of Sven in the books above if they are of any use. You obviously have Archer Taylor.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:31 AM

There is little variation between versions, but Jeannie Robertson wasn't the only recorded source for "My Son David".

Margaret Stewart recalled her own version of the song after hearing Jeannie singing it:
http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/fullrecord/62076/1
This was recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1954.

Another text was recorded by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger from Maria Robertson in 1963. It was printed in "Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland":

1 What's the blood that's on your sword?
      Hey son David, Ho son David,
What's the blood mat's on your sword?
      Come promise, tell me true.

2 That's the blood of my grey mare,
      Yes lady Mother, ay, lady Mother,
That's the blood of my grey mare,
      Because it wadna rule by me.

3 That blood is far too clear,
      Hey son David, Ho son David,
That blood is far too clear,
      Come promise, tell me true.

4 That's the blood of my hunting hack,
      Yes lady Mother, ay, lady Mother,
That's the blood of my hunting hack,
      Because it wadna rule by me.

5 That blood is far too clear,
      Hey son David, Ho son David,
That blood is far too clear,
      Come promise, tell me true.

6 That's the blood of my brother John,
      Yes lady Mother, ay, lady Mother,
That's the blood of my brother John,
      When he drew his sword to me.

7 What way did youse fall out?
      Hey son David, Ho son David,
What way did youse fall out?
      Come promise, tell me true.

8 It was the cuttin' o' a silly wand,
      A silly wand,
'Twas the cuttin' o' a silly wand
      When he drew his sword to me.

9 I'm gaun awa' in a bottomless boat,
      In a bottomless boat,
I'm gaun awa' in a bottomless boat,
      And a good scholar I'll come hame.

Here's a bit of info on the singer from the book:

MARIA ROBERTSON
Maria Robertson was born in 1930 in Bridge of Don, Aberdeen. Her father, David Robertson, a brother of Jeannie Robertson (the well-known Aberdeen ballad-singer) is known among Travellers as 'The Iron Man', a title bestowed upon him during the time he worked the boxing booths at fairs and markets. We met Maria at the home of Wilhelmina MacAllister and only recorded her for an hour, during which she sang us five traditional songs and 'yen I made up the day'. She has contributed the following items to this book:

5 Edward
17 The Braes o' Yarrow
110 The Ale-Wife and Her Barrel
111 Hooly and Fairly

(Collected 1963)

The Musical Traditions CD reissue of the book also includes the audio recordings for all songs.

Maria Robertson sang it much slower than Maggie Stewart but both sang "Hey Son David" instead of "My Son David" and pronounced it the same way. There's also the verse about the bottomless boat which was missing in Jeannie's early recordings of the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 09:00 AM

Considering how familiar we all are nowadays with Jeannie Robertson's version it is somewhat surprising that Carpenter didn't find any version this side of the Pond.

If we're considering Scandinavian versions I must (once again: I think I've mentioned it in a previous thread) point out Bronson's comment; "Archer Taylor has argued convincingly that the ballad passed from Britain to Scandinavia". We may never know for certain but I share Bronson's assessment of the argument.

Taylor's book is available as a facsimile reprint from Kessinger Publishing and I got myself a copy and one for the VWML.

There are several components to Taylor's argument for the direction of transmission including the change of atmosphere from nobility with their hounds and hawks in the British versions to a farmer grooming his horse or tending to his foals in Scandinavia.

It amuses me that Taylor quoted all the Danish, Norwegian, Swedish and Swedish-Finnish versions without translation, apparently presuming that ballad scholars could sufficiently understand those languages, but did provide translations of the Finnish versions.

Some years ago I was at a small song workshop in Sweden and the song teacher, Eva Rune, sang a version of Sven i Rosengård, without any prior explanation. My Swedish is minimal, but I got a few words here and there, sufficient to guess what the ballad was about, and I responded with Jeannie's version.

I don't think Eva would object to my putting my recording on line if people would like to hear it.

That particular version has slightly different phraseology in two successive verses which translates exactly into English. In one verse "Hur är din fot så blodig?"; "Why is thy foot so bloody?", and in the next "Varför är ditt svärd så blodigt?"; "Wherefore is thy sword so bloodied?".


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM

Hi,

TY for the contributions. Neither Greig nor Carpenter found any Scottish versions in the early 1900s.

Here's another transcription of Sven i Rosengård. Arwidsson prints this from southern Sweden without an informant. Taylor's version GS D.

Svenska Fornsanger, II, p. 83-85 by ?Adolf Iwar Arwidsson - 1837

A. Sven i Rosengård, from Smäland,

1. "Hvar har du va't så länge?" —
Sven i Rosengård!
"Jo, jag har va't i stallet."
Kära moder vår;
J vänta mig sent eller aldrig!

2. "Hvad har du gjort i stallet?" —
Sven i Rosengård!
"Jo, jag har skådat blacken." —
Kära moder vår;
J vänta mig sent eller aldrig!

3. "Hur är din fot så blodig?" —
Sven i Rosengård!
"Jo, blacken har mig trådat." —
   Kära moder vår;
J vänta mig sent eller aldrig!

4. "Hur är ditt svärd så blodigt?" —
"Jag har stuckit ihjäl min broder!" —

5. "Hvar har du gjort af brodren din?" —
"Han ligger utom stallsvägg!" —

6. "Hvad skall du nu ha för det?" —
"Jo, jag skall rymma af landet." —

7. "Hvad skall du göra af hustrun din?" —
"Den sätter jag på sörje-skrin." —

8. "Hvad skall du göra af barnen din?" —
"De få lita vänner och fränder till." —

9. "Hvad skall du göra af kreaturen?" —
"Dem släpper jag på sjelfföda." —

10. "Hvad skall du göra af åker och äng?"
"Dem lägger jag för fäfot." —

11. "När skall jag vänta dig igen?-
"När korpen han hvitar."

12. "När hvitar korpen?"
När svanen han svartnar."

13. "När svartnar svanen?"
"När stenen han flyter."

14. "När flyter svanen?"
När fjädern han sjunker."

15 "När sjunker fjädern?"
När alla enebär mogna."

16. "När mogna alla enebär?"
"När alla pigor bli gifta."

17. "När bli alla pigor gifta?
"När kyrkan blifver enka."

18. När blir kyrkan enka?
Sven i Rosengård!
"Jo, innan verldens ända."
Kära moder vår;
J vänta mig sent eller aldrig!

* * * *

A. "Sven of Rosengård" from Småland, 1837

1. "Where have you been for so long?" -
Sven of Rosengård!
"Well, I've been in the stables.
My mother dear,
I will come late or never!"

2. "What have you done in the stall?" -
Sven of Rosengård!
"Well, I've seen the black [horse]." -
My mother dear,
I will come late or never!

3. "How is your foot so bloody?" -
Sven of Rosengård!
"Yes, the black has stamped me." -
My mother dear,
I will come late or never!

4. "How is your sword so bloody?" -
"I've killed my brother!" -

5. "Where have you done your brother?" -
"He's out on the wall!" -

6. "What are you going to do?" -
"Yes, I'll flee from the country." -

7. "What will you do from your wife?" -
"I put her on the sore-box." -

8. "What are you doing with your children?" -
"Leave them with a few friends and relatives." -

9. "What will you do with your animals?" -
"I will release them on the land." -

10. "What will you do with your fields and meadows?"
"I put them up for farming." -

11. "When will you return again?"
"When the raven is white."

12. "When is the raven white?"
When the swan turns black. "

13. "When does the swan blacken?"
"When the stone floats."

14. "When does the stone [swan] float?"
When the feather sinks. "

15 "When does the feather sink?"
When all the juniper berries ripen. "

16. "When do all juniper berries ripen?"
"When all the girls get married."

17. "When do all girls get married?
"When they become widows[1]."

18. When do they become widows?
Sven of Rosengård!
"Well, before the end of the world.
My mother dear
I will come late or never[2]!"

1. "kyrkan" translates literally to "church" but the word "women" is used in other transcriptions-- "When all women are widows" meaning "When all men are dead."
2. Meaning "You expect me (to be) late, but I will never come (home)!"
Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 01:36 PM

Hi Richard,
I have Archer Taylor and read it some years back. I haven't time to reread it now but it would be helpful perhaps to all here if you could summarise his theory that the movement was from Britain to Scandinavia. If it is because of a change of status in the personnel that is a very flimsy theory.

I interpret Bronson's comment as non-commital. He says 'Archer Taylor has argued convincingly', but he doesn't actually say he was convinced!

I think Richie will be in a better position to offer an opinion when he has examined all of the extant versions.

Personally, and I'm aware of my reputation, I think the British and therefore American versions of Child 13 and other related ballads have no great age to them. However, I'd love to be proved wrong.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 04:11 PM

Steve,

I'll need to re-read Taylor myself before I can say much more about his arguments. The personnel (dramatis personae?) argument is the only one I remember.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:23 PM

Hi,

There a Swedish version of 33 stanzas, MS in Stephens' collection Stockholm circa 1640, that is Grundvig's A version. This half-comic version, that Taylor could not find, may be important. No one to my knowledge has seen this. If anyone can find (George) Stephens' collection online it would help. Grundtvig does not give the text just a brief description.

Taylor reasons that the British versions are older because of their "courtly" details such as the "hawk" and "hound" etc. while the Scandinavian versions feature a farmer (Sven) who washes horses in a stable. Clearly the Swedish versions date back before the 1640 parody and are chronologically older. The Scandinavian versions often have introductory stanzas while the British/US versions usually don't. Because of the similarity of the versions, it's likely they cam from the same ur-ballad.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:40 PM

Hi,

After looking briefly at Child B, Percy's famous recreation, it's clear that the son's name was changed, the murder of the brother was changed to the murder of the father and a new ending was added. The ending is proven to be false by the earlier dialogue between mother and son-- if the mother was an accomplice all along-- the dialogue would have been different since she would have known what the son was doing.

The usual ending has been used in Twa Brothers and Lizie Wan which means the ballad may be older than c.1750 in Britain. Still the Scandinavian versions would be over 100 years older.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 03:21 PM

Hi,

The following English version with notes was given in "Two Songs and a Dance" in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 3, No. 3 (Dec., 1938), pp. 203-210. I've dated it 1891. It was part of a "soulin play (mummer's play)" and importantly features an introductory stanza similar to the Scandinavian versions. Some of Gilcrhist's notes are:

The Cheshire Soul-caking play is the mumming play of St. George-more usually performed in other localities at Easter or Christmas. But the Tarvin version is remarkable for its introduction of two songs which have no connection with the play, one being "Jim the carter lad" and the other a traditional version of "Edward"! The latter is of extraordinary interest as the sole traditional version ever-as far as I am aware-recovered in England, Percy's and Motherwell's copies being in Scots dialect. No name is given to the tragic " my son," who is also nameless in the American versions, Appalachian and Virginian, which I have seen; and I suspect that Percy himself was responsible for an alteration of the homely "Son Davy, Son Davy" of Motherwell's version to " Edward, Edward." If so, it was an ill-considered improvement, as the name "Edward" was abhorrent to Scottish ears, the "proud usurper" even in Burns's day being associated with " chains and slaverie," and his name about the last to be bestowed upon an infant son. As the "Edward" ballad has hitherto been supposed to have perished in England (Motherwell's copy of 1827 being the latest extant) and as this traditional copy (given without any title) has turned up in a place where nobody would look for it, it is here given as written down -for Mr. J. K. Hudson c. 1891 by one of the actors, a lad of sixteen.

1. "And it's where hast thou been all this night long, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I have been lying on yonder bull-rushes
Which lies beneath yond tree."

2. "And it's what are the spots on this thy coat, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"They are the spots of my poor brother's blood
Which lies beneath yonder tree."

3. "And it's what didst thou kill thy poor brother for, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"Because he killed two pretty little birds
Which flew from tree to tree."

4. And it's what will thy father say, when he comes, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I will dress me up in sailor's clothes,
And my face he will never see."

5. "And it's what will thou do with thy pretty little wife, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I will dress her up in ladies' clothes,
And she will sail along with me."

6. "And it's what will thou do with thy children three, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"I will leave them to my poor grandfather to rear,
And comfort (to) him (to be)."

7. "And it's when shall we see thy face again, my son?
Come tell it unto me."
"When the sun and moon shines both at once.-
And that shall never be."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 05:55 PM

Here's the 33 stanza version from the mid-1600s (Stockholm Stephens' Collection c.1640) I finally found it. The end is very similar to the standard Swedish. I'm not going to translate yet but will give a couple end stanzas:

28 When will you come back?
Son in Roosengård
When the fire burns wet.
Dear mother mine

29 When will you come back?
Son in Roosengård
When the stone is in bloom.
Dear mother mine.

30 When will you return home?
Son in Roosengård
When the stone starts to swim.
Dear mother mine

* * * *

SMB 153: SVEN I ROSENGÅRD
TSB D 320 153

A.
UUB T 144 b, s. 79-80. Uppskrift från 1600-talets mitt, sannolikt från uppsvenskt område (Jonsson I, s. 190-195).

1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar,
Sohnen i Roosengård
Mycket der vthi feelar,
Käre Moder wår (vår)
- i wänten oss aldrig.

2 Nåde och frijd aff herran:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den ware migh ey fierran.
Käre moder wår

3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria:
Sonen i Roosengård:
Nu först det icke börias
Käre Moder wår

4 Annat iagh ey tänker:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh,
dett werlden migh ihnskänker,
Käre moder wår

5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa:
Sohnen i Rosengårdh:
effter som dee migh pröfwa:
Käre moder wår

6 Rijkedom effter trachta:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den iagh lijtet achtar,
Kära moder wår

7 Redeligen wandra:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
hoos edher och bland andra:
Kära moder vår

8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh
han war migh aldrigh godher
Kära Moder wår

9 Ey mon han dödher wara,
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jo, så plä skalkar fahra
Kära moder wår

10 Aldrigh du det förgäter,
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
Jagh slipper fulle släter:
Käre Moder wår

11 Ney du skall det betaala:
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jagh will der medh förhaala
Kära Moder wår

12 Sannerligh det ey hielper:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
fögha det migh stielper.
Käre Moder wår

13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
här i hielper det fögha.
Käre Moder wår

14 Rundeligh kan du bööta:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta
Kära moder wår

15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra.
Kära moder wår

16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt.
Kära Moder wår

17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Det är ey till det bästa:
Kära moder wåhr

18 Kan ingen digh hugswala:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Näy icke vthan fahra:
Käre Moder wåhr

19 Så will du hedan reesa:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa
Käre moder wåhr

20 Rymmer du uthur Landet
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja vndan skalka händer
Kära moder wåhr

21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Ey det på första Qwisten.
Ka ra Moder wår

22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader:
Sohnen i Roosengård
på den är iagh ey gladher:
Kära moder wår

23 Han will digh ighen tagha,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh skall wäl annars lagha,
Kära Moder wår

24 Din fader digh wäll finner,
Sohnen i roosengård.
Nappast han migh hinner
Kära Moder wår

25 Ähn Konungen i rijket:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
han finner wäl sihn lijke:
Käre Modher wåhr.

26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända
sohnen i Roosengård
Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända
Kära moder wår

27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda
sohnen i Roosengård
Medh ahrbethe och möda,
Käre moder wår

28 När kommer du åter
Sohnen i Roosengård
När Elden blifaer wåter.
Kära moder wår

29 När will du ighen komma.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När steenen står i blomma.
Kära moder wår

30 När will du blijfwa hemma
Sohnen i Roosengård
När stenen böriar simma.
Kära moder wår

31 När skall iag till digh hinna.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När watnet böriar brinna
Käre moder wår

32 När seer iagh digh min bästa
Sohnen i Roosengård
När som det dagas wästan
Käre moder wår

33   Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga
Sohnen i Roosengård
der före i nu råda.
Kära moder wåhr
- i wänten oss aldrig.

* * * *

30:1 blijfna hemma orden skrivna i omvänd ordningsföljd, vilken korrigerats

Anmärkning
Ms saknar strofnr. Omkvädet utskrivet i str. 1 och 33,
markerat i str. 1-16, 18, 20-22, 24.
28:2    Elden ordets början svårtydd, möjligen ändrat från steenen


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 05:57 PM

Off the top of my head I think there may be some Kent versions. I'll check tomorrow.

Whereas some Scandinavian ballads naturally are set in Britain I can't off hand think of a single ballad that went from Britain to Scandinavia prior to 1800. One reason for this may be that there are far more Scandinavian ballads and they were set down at a much earlier period. To the best of my knowledge Grundtvig was the first Scandinavian to publish translations of British ballads in 1840.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

I started another thread to get a translation of the 33 stanza version Swedish A of c. 1640. Anyone who can help please see that thread.

This Swedish version is probably from the mid-1700s as it was collected in 1810 from a woman born in 1742:

B
KB Vs 2:1, s. 431-432. Efter mamsell Beata Memsen, Kisa sn, Östergötland (f. 1742 i Oppeby sn, Östergötland, d. 1831 i Kisa; Jonsson I, s. 325-326). Upptecknad av L. F. Rääf 1810. Tryckt som SF 87 B.


1 Hvar har du va’t så länge
Sven i Rosengård
Jag har va’t i stallet
kära moder vår
- I vänten mig sent eller aldrig

2. Hvad har du gjort i stallet
Sven i Rosengård
Jag har vatnat fålar alla
kära moder vår

3. Hvi är ditt svärd så blodigt
Sven i Rosengård
Jag slog ihjäl min broder
kära moder vår

4. Hvad vill du nu då göra
Sven i Rosengård
jag rymmer utaf landet
kära moder vår

5. Hvar vill du göra af Hustru och barn
Sven i Rosengård
De få gå verlden af och an
kära moder vår

6. När får jag dig hemvänta
Sven i Rosengård
När kyrkan blir enka
kära moder vår

7. När blir kyrkan enka
Sven i Rosengård
när där är inga bänkar
kära moder vår

8. När får jag dig hemvänta
Sven i Rosengård
när alla fjädrar sjunka
kära moder vår

9 Och när sjunker fjädern
Sven i Rosengård
när järnet det flyter
kära moder vår

10 När får jag dig hemvänta
Sven i Rosengård
när korpen blir viter
kära moder vår

11 när blir korpen viter
Sven i Rosengård
när svanen blir svarter
kära moder vår

12 När får jag dig hemvänta
Sven i Rosengård
när alla enbär mogna
kära moder vår

13 När mogna alla enebär
Sven i Rosengård
när alla flicker bli gifta
kära moder vår

14 När får jag dig hemvänta
Sven i Rosengård
när tallen han löfgas
kära moder vår

15 När löfgas tallen
Sven i Rosengård
när björken hon barras
kära moder vår

16 Hvar vill du göra af åker och äng
Sven i Rosengård
den får bli utan hägn och stägn
kära moder vår
- I vänten mig sent eller aldrig.


SM B 153
Anmärkning
Str. 4 tillskriven i efterhand i margen med nr 3 1/2, vilket ändrats till 4 (de övriga stroferna har därför också fått nya nummer, dvs. 5 osv.). Omkvädet och de återkom­ mande tilltalsfrasema utskrivna i str. 1 och 15, marke­ rade i övriga strofer. Osäkert i vilken utsträckning interpunktionen härstammar från Arwidsson, här därför ej återgiven. -   Upptecknarens anm. efter texten:
Ehuru denna visa kan synas ofullständig, har likväl den som i fordna dar varit särdeles allmän blifvit af flere personer på samma sätt sjungen för M ad^ Mems.
1:3 va’t står över struket varit
3:3 före slog som ändrats från slag står har över-struket
10:3    före blir står blifver överstruket
13:1   enebär ändrat från enbär
16:3    den står över struket de


B
KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 431-432. After Mrs. Beata Memsen, Kisa sn, Östergötland (born 1742 in Oppeby sn, Östergötland, d.
1831 in Kisa; Jonsson I, pp. 325-326). Recorded by L. F. Rääf 1810. Printed as SF 87 B.


1 "Where have you been for so long,
Sven in Rosengård?"
"I've been in the stall
dear mother mine,
- You'll wait late or never[1]."

2. What have you done in the stables?
Sven in Rosengård
I have been watering all [the horses]
dear mother mine

3. What is your sword so bloody?
Sven in Rosengård
I killed my brother
dear mother mine.

4. What do you want to do now?
Sven in Rosengård
I can escape from the country
dear mother mine

5. What do you want to do for your wife and child?
Sven in Rosengård
[Let them wander] through the world by and by
dear mother mine

6. When will you come home?
Sven in Rosengård
When women becomes widows[2]
dear mother spring

7. When do women become widows?
Sven in Rosengård
when there are no benches to sit on[3]
dear mother mine.

8. When do I get home?
Sven in Rosengård
when all feathers sink
dear mother mine

9 And when the feather sinks
Sven in Rosengård
when the iron (stone) is floating
dear mother mine

10 When will you come home?
Sven in Rosengård
when the raven (crow) becomes white
dear mother spring

11 When the raven becomes white
Sven in Rosengård
when the swan is blackened
dear mother mine

12 When will you come get home?
Sven in Rosengård
when all juniper berries ripen
dear mother mine

13 When all junipers are ripe?
Sven in Rosengård
When all girls get married,
dear mother mine

14 When will you come home?
Sven in Rosengård
when all promises are kept,
dear mother spring

15 When are all promises are kept?
Sven in Rosengård
"When the birch has bark
dear mother mine,"

16 When will you want to go out of fields and meadows?
Sven in Rosengård
When the world is without hesitation and stagnation
dear mother mine
- You'll wait [for me to come] late but I will come never.

1. meaning: "You'll expect me to come late, but I'll never come (home)." 2. The meaning od "kyrkan" is "church." Since "women" makes sense and it is used for that word I've used "women" here.
3. Not sure what "benches" have to do with this. I assume it means: "When there are no husbands (men) alive."

SM B 153
Remark
Size 4 assigned afterwards in the margin with No. 3 1/2, which changed to 4 (the other stranzas have therefore also been received new numbers, i.e. 5, etc.). The refrain given in manuscript as written in str. 1 and 15, and occurs in all other stanzas. Uncertain to what extent the reference notes comes from Arwidsson are, here for that reason, they is not reproduced.
Recorders' note- after the text: Although this version may seem incomplete, yet it is the one you has been found to have been particularly common by several people-- like singing of Mrs. Memsen.
1: 3 it's over the throat being
3: 3 before hit as changed from battle stands have over-stretched
10: 3 before getting standing will be overridden
13: 1 juniper changed from juniper berries
16: 3 it is over the throat they stand


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 11:15 PM

Hi,

This is Grundtvig C (18 stanzas) and dates back to the 1700s from an informant born in 1733.

C:
KB Vs 2:1, s. 429—430. Efter pigan Anna Persdotter, trotjänarinna i L. F. Rääfs hem (f. 1733 i Målilla sn, Småland, kom vid unga år till Östergötland, d. 1819 på Millingstorp, Kisa sn; Jonsson I, s. 326-327). Upptecknad av L. F. Rääf 1811. Tryckt som SF 87 A.

1 Hvar har du va’t så länge
Sven i Rosengård
Jo jag har va’t i stallet
kära moder vår
- I vänta mig sent eller aldrig.

2 Hvad har du gjort i stallet
Sven i Rosengård
Jo jag har skådat blacken
kära moder vår

3 Hur är din fot så blodig
Sven i Rosengård
jo blacken har mig trådat
kära moder vår

4 Hur är ditt svärd så blodigt
Sven i Rosengård
jag har stuckit ihjäl min broder
kära moder vår

5 Hvar har du gjort af brödren din
Sven i Rosengård
Han ligger utom stallevägg
kära moder vår

6 Hvad skall du nu ha för det
Sven i Rosengård
jo jag skall rymma af landet
kära moder vår

7 Hvad skall du göra af hustrun din
Sven i Rosengård
den sätter jag på söije-skrin
kära moder vår

8 Hvad skall du göra af barnen dina
Sven i Rosengård
de få lita till vänner och fränder
kära moder vår

9 Hvad skall du göra af kreaturen
Sven i Rosengård
dem släpper jag på sjelfföda
kära moder vår

10 Hvad skall du göra af åker och äng
Sven i Rosengård
dem lägger jag för fäfot
kära moder vår

11 När skall jag vänta dig igen
Sven i Rosengård
när korpen han vitnar
kära moder vår

12 När hvitnar korpen
Sven i Rosengård
när svanen han svartnar
kära moder vår

13 När svartnar svanen
Sven i Rosengård
när stenen han flyter
kära moder vår

14 När flyter stenen
Sven i Rosengård
när fjädern han sjunker
kära moder vår

15 När sjunker fjädern
Sven i Rosengård
när alla enbär mogna
kära moder vår

16 När mogna alla enebär
Sven i Rosengård
när alla pigor bli gifta
kära moder vår

17 När bli alla pigor gifta
Sven i Rosengård
när kyrkan blifver enka
kära moder vår

18 När blir kyrkan enka
Sven i Rosengård
jo innan verldsens ända
kära moder vår
- I vänta mig sent eller aldrig

Anmärkning

Omkvädet och de återkommande tilltalsfrasema utskrivna i str. 1, markerade i str. 18. Osäkert i vilken utsträckning interpunktionen härstammar från Arwidsson, här därför ej återgiven.

Omkvädet: vänta ändrat från vänten
5:3 stallevägg ms ev. stallsvägg
6:3 jo tillskrivet i margen före jag
8:3 få står över struket ska
16:1 över raden står
När bli alla enbär mogna överstruket
17:3 blifver troligen ändrat från bli

------------------------

KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 429-430. From the girl, Anna Persdotter, the servant in L. F. Rääfs home (born 1733 in Målilla sn, Småland, came young years to Östergötland, 1819 at Millingstorp, Kisa sn; Jonsson I, pp. 326-327). Recorded by L. F. Rääf 1811. Printed as SF 87 A.

1 Where have you been for so long?
Sven in Rosengård
Well, I've been in the stables
dear mother mine
- I wait late or never.

2 What have you done in the stables?
Sven in Rosengård
Yes, I've seen the black (horse),
dear mother mine

3 How is your foot so bloody?
Sven in Rosengård
The black has stamped me so,
dear mother mine

4 Why s your sword so bloody?
Sven in Rosengård
I've killed my brother
dear mother mine

5 What have you done your brother's (body)?
Sven in Rosengård
He is located outside the stable wall
dear mother mine

6 Where shall you go now?
Sven in Rosengård
Yes, I will escape from the country
dear mother mine

7 What shall you do of your wife?
Sven in Rosengård
I put it on the Söije (soul) box[1]
dear mother spring

8 What shall you do of your children?
Sven in Rosengård
Leave them with a few trusted friends and relatives
dear mother mine

9 What shall you do of the animals?
Sven in Rosengård
I will release them on the farm,
dear mother spring

10 What shall you do with your fields and meadows?
Sven in Rosengård
I will sell them for a fee
dear mother mine

11 When will you wait to return again?
Sven in Rosengård
when the raven he turns white
dear mother mine

12 When will the raven whiten?
Sven in Rosengård
when the swan he blackens
dear mother mine

13 When blackens the swan?
Sven in Rosengård
When the stone floats
dear mother mine

14 When the stone floats
Sven in Rosengård
when the feather sinks
dear mother mine

15 When does the feather sink?
Sven in Rosengård
when all juniper berries ripen
dear mother mine

16 When is the ripening of the junipers?
Sven in Rosengård
when all the girls get married
dear mother mine

17 When do all girls get married?
Sven in Rosengård
"when the women[2] becomes widows,
dear mother mine,"

18 When do women becomes widows?
Sven in Rosengård
before the end of the world
dear mother mine,
- You wait for me late or never[3].

1. usually this is a reference to "spinning thread" and may be a "thread box" or related to spinning.

2. The Swedish word is "church" (see also stanza 18). Other transcripts have "women" (see Karpeles for example) which makes sense.

3. meaning: "You expect me to come home late, but I will never come."

Remarks
Overweight(?) and the recurring refrain phrases printed in stanza 1, marked in stanza 18. Uncertain to what extent the comments derive from Arwidsson, here they are therefore not reproduced.

Variations: wait change from the wait
5: 3 stallevägg ms ev. stable wall
6: 3 yes, written in the margin before me
8: 3 get over the dried goat
16:1 over the line stands
When all the juniper berries overlap
17:3 will probably change from being


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 24 Oct 18 - 03:17 PM

One John Brune sang the infamous "Edward" text for the School of Scottish Studies:
Edward - Sung by John Brune

It was recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1958.
There's no information on the singer available.

I wonder what the story behind this is. It's a bit of a curiousity.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 18 - 12:23 PM

Hi,

TY for adding a link to that version. There are several recent Scottish versions (1950s) which are of questionable authenticity. I say questionable because the ballad was not found by Greig-Duncan in the early 1900s not Carpenter in the 1930s and it possibly could have been resurrected (Child A) then attributed to tradition. Jeannie Robertson's version c. 1952 was around/after Lomax/Ritchie so I would assume some of the Scottish travellers knew the Child ballads or print version. Jeannie attributed her version to her mother about 1908 and it could be ac rare authentic version that was came form earlier Scottish sources. Whether the other Scottish sources of the 1950s came solely from this version is unknown.

The plot of Percy's version with the Oedipus complex (son killing father) is likely a recreation-- but for what reason?

The standard brother kills brother murder as found in Scandinavia, Britain and later the US. The Scandinavian version which date back to c.1640 in general have no murder motive-- two of the versions give this motive- the brother kills his brother for having an affair with his wife. The motive in the British/US versions is that the murder happened in a fight over a bush the brother cut down "that would not make tree." Though hardly a motive for murder- real murders often happen over small, minor incidents.

The evidence by Barry and later Coffin the bush represents a younger sister and the ballad is about incest is speculative. Child 13's ties to Lizie Wan, a ballad of incest, and the Two Brothers alsdo need to be examined.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 26 Oct 18 - 01:34 PM

There's a Mudcat thread about a John Brune active in the mid-nineteenth century here: https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=103839. I imagine it's the same guy, and I also imagine it's not a version learned "from tradition."


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM

I'll be sending you a version in one of John's books soon, Richie.

Whilst I think the incest motive is a red herring, I do think it quite likely the cutting down of a sapling could well be allegorical.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 12:37 PM

Hi Steve,

I'm looking through the items you emailed me now. What allegories are reasonable? Could the little bush be a young girl, a sister? Perhaps "prickly bush" as a "love entanglement"? Barry's attribution of the young girl/sister to Cecil Sharp has never been documented in Sharp's papers.

One of the issues with Atkinson and some other analyses are that many of the later texts are of questionable authenticity. I know-- without checking-- the US versions from Woofter (Combs Collection 1924), Niles, Gainer (West Virginia 1975) and Smith (Virginia c. 1964) are fraudulent recreations and that considering them in an analysis distorts the findings. Suspect are most of the British versions from the 1950s since it's quite possible that singers who wanted to sing Child 13-- arranged the ballad for their repertoire (from print) and that these arrangements entered tradition. Traditional singers that wanted to add Child 13 could not easily say their version was from print but would need to have a traditional source. This has happened time and again, so it makes it very difficult to establish authenticity. The addition of "killing of birds" as a motive in recent British versions could, for example, have stemmed from a single arrangement. I'm not suggesting that all the British versions from c. 1950 should be discounted but rather that they should all be considered suspicious. Conclusions need to be drawn from versions which are not suspicious.

I consider the English version from the late 1800s (see it posted above) to be traditional and Motherwell's version. Percy's version proves that the ballad was traditional c.1750 but since the text has been changed- it's impossible to say what that version was.

Many of the US versions from Appalachia, however, are legitimate (Sharp EFSSA) and so are the Scandinavian versions.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 03:27 PM

I fully agree with you about being very careful with putting too much weight on British versions post 1950. Brune's version should be immediately discounted for instance.

Allegories can only be purely conjectural in this case. At its simplest level he could be just saying they argued over something else trivial, or it could be the dead brother killed another young person who was close to David/the son. There is no reason why it should have to be a sister or even a relative.

The piece is more than likely a translation of something which in itself was fragmentary and it's so old that any real motive could easily become altered or misread/misheard over time.

I have Larry Syndegaard's 'English Translations of the Scandinavian Medieval Ballads' which is basically a series of tables listing the translations and where they can be found. Swedish entries for National no 153 (TSB no. D320) there are 3. I'm not quite sure how it works but the references are to Howitt (1852) Child's English and Scottish Ballads, M. Walker in Marzo (1928) and Taube (1954). these sources are in the Biblio. The publisher is The Nordic Institute of Folklore, Turku, 1995.


Looking at Motherwell and Laing there is a strong clue in the second lines of the stanza. 'That would never (hae) been a tree' and 'A penny would ha bought the tree'. Surely this is simply stating that their argument was over something extremely trivial.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 06:35 PM

I've started re-reading Taylor.

The general thrust of his argument is to look at which features are present or absent in the various versions and surmise whether each feature is more likely to have been added at some point, implying that the versions that have that feature are newer, or to have been lost, implying that the versions that have it are older. One that he argues is old is the bottomless boat, which he says was a recognised punishment for serious crimes at one time. When the existence of that punishment had been forgotten, it is a plausible shift first to sailing away in a normal boat and then to exile by unspecified transport.

He surmises that the "where have you been?" opening in most of the Scandinavian versions probably crept in from a different ballad.

The 1650-ish version that was not available to him seems very different from all the others, British or Scandinavian. Its much greater length is unsurprising, many other ballads having been condensed in later years, but it includes little about the brother and (unless I've missed it) nothing at all about his having been murdered, about blood, about the impossible events attending Sven's return, or about what is being left to the wife and children. All it has in common with the later versions are the name Sven i Rosengård, the structure, and the intention to run away. Might it represent one source, with the fratricide and the impossible events having been grafted in from separate sources?


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Kevin Werner
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 05:27 AM

Where did the assumption that the killing was about a sister originate?
Was this assumption based on Lizie Wan (Child 51) versions that had Child 13 verses attached to the end?

The "Little Sister Mary" text sung by Nora Hicks appears to be the exception, as far as I know none of Cecil Sharp's (or any other of those I've seen) texts mention a sister.
Nimrod Workman's Child 13 has the son admit to killing his "own true love" instead of his brother, but that could just be faulty memory or a deliberate change.

It's just my opinion, but interpreting a sister into the "cutting of a bush/tree" seems to be a bit of a stretch.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 06:46 AM

Hi,

TY Steve, Brune just reworked Child B slightly an obvious borrowing- not sure where he got his melody. The references you mentioned to the 1640 Swedish version are references where the Swedish version is mention but probably are not transcriptions.

TY Richard, I started putting Taylor's book on my site, but haven't finished. The "Where have you been?" and Mother/son dialogue are similarly found in Child 12.

TY Kevin, Phillips Barry in 1933 Bulliten reviewed Taylor's 1931 book and suggested that the breaking of the bush was a kenning: "Child A, C, and the American texts generally make the motive the breaking of a little bush: a kenning which Cecil Sharp said was interpreted by a singer to refer to a very young girl." This isn't about the murder of the sister but it's about incest being a motive. This motive was further developed in Coffin's The Murder Motive in "Edward" Western Folklore, Vol. 8, No. 4 (Oct., 1949), pp. 314-319.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 12:22 PM

To state the obvious, Brune's melody is most likely the result of some reader's attempt to turn the impressive poem "back" into a song.

That reader may have been Brune himself, or his source.

When I was about fourteen years old, I did the same the thing, though I never sang my creation for anybody else.

Fortunately I can no longer remember the tune.

I believe that the incest interpretation of the "classic" version arose among academics - roughly between 1920 and 1940 - because interpreting the song that way seemed to provide support from "the folk" (presumably from at least as far back as the Middle Ages, according to the academic assumptions of the time) ) for Freud's   newly popular theory of the "Oedipus complex." The interpretation is not impossible, though hardly self-evident.

Incest or not, the mother has presumably encouraged the son indirectly (and perhaps repeatedly) to kill his father for being some kind of villain. But she didn't expect him to do it - certainly not now. Her questions might equally be the result of concern and curiosity
- or of a perverse hope.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 02:10 PM

Hi,

This is cobbled together with a few changes from the other thread I started to get a transcription. The murder of the brother itself is never stated but carefully implied through the dialogue:

Sohnen i Roosengård (dated c. 1640, from Swedish MS)
[Son in the Rose Garden]

1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar,
Sohnen i Roosengård
Mycket der vthi feelar,
Käre Moder wår (vår)
- i wänten oss aldrig.

["All good things I tell to you,
Son in the rose garden."
Many of these things are flawed,
Dear mother of ours [lit.: Dear mother ours]
- Expect us[me] never."

2 Nåde och frijd aff herran:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den ware migh ey fierran.
Käre moder wår

["Grace and peace of the Lord
Son in the rose garden:
May it not be far from me.
Dear mother of ours."]

3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria:
Sonen i Roosengård:
Nu först det icke börias
Käre Moder wår

["Can I ask you something,
Son in the rosegarden?"
"Don’t start that now,
Dear mother of ours."]

4 "Annat iagh ey tänker:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh,
dett werlden migh ihnskänker,
Käre moder wår

["I don't plan on doing anything else (lit. I don’t think anything else),
Son in the rosegarden.
"Whatever the world brings me,
Dear mother of ours."]

5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa:
Sohnen i Rosengårdh:
effter som dee migh pröfwa:
Käre moder wår

["Every day you do good deeds,
Son in the rosegarden."
"Because they test/challenge me,
Dear mother of ours."]

6 Rijkedom effter trachta:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den iagh lijtet achtar,
Kära moder wår

["Coveting riches:
Son in the rosegarden."
"I have but little desire of that,
Dear mother of ours."]

7 Redeligen wandra:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
hoos edher och bland andra:
Kära moder vår

["To wander (ie. to conduct myself) decently
Son in the rose garden."
"With you and among others,
Dear mother of ours."]

8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh
han war migh aldrigh godher
Kära Moder wår

["Nothing is heard of your brother,
Son in the rose garden."
"He was never good to me,
Dear mother of ours."]

9 Ey mon han dödher wara,
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jo, så plä skalkar fahra
Kära moder wår

["Might he be dead?
Son in the rose garden."
"Indeed, that is often the fate of scoundrels,
Dear mother of ours."]

10 Aldrigh du det förgäter,
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
Jagh slipper fulle släter:
Käre Moder wår

["You will never forget it (his murder),
Son in the rosegarden."
"I will avoid it completely,
Dear mother of ours."]

11 Ney du skall det betaala:
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jagh will der medh förhaala
Kära Moder wår

["No, you must pay for this (murder):
Son in the rosegarden."
"I shall delay it,
Dear mother of ours."]

12 Sannerligh det ey hielper:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
fögha det migh stielper.
Käre Moder wår,

["Truly it will not help:
Son in the rosegarden."
It will hardly hinder me,
Dear mother of ours."]

13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
här i hielper det fögha.
Käre Moder wår,

]"You will not cause me sorrow;
Son in the rosegarden."
"That can hardly be helped.
Dear mother of ours."]

14 Rundeligh kan du bööta:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta
Kära moder wår

["You will pay in full,
Son in the rosegarden."
"I can’t stand that they (you?) threaten me,
Dear mother of ours."]

15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra.
Kära moder wår

["You should be near me,
Son in the rosegarden."
I will not be not in danger,
Dear mother of ours."]

16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt.
Kära Moder wår

[I wanted it to be otherwise for you,
Son in the rosegarden."
I fear it is now too late,
Dear mother of ours."]

17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Det är ey till det bästa:
Kära moder wåhr

["I had thought I would comfort you,
Son in the rosegarden.
That would not be for the best,
Dear mother of ours."]

19 Så will du hedan reesa:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa
Käre moder wåhr

["So you want to travel away from here,
Son in the rosegarden?"
Yes, to wherever I happen to die,
Dear mother of ours."]


21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Ey det på första Qwisten.
Ka ra Moder wår

["So tell me then where your nest will be (lit. so tell me then your nest),
Son in the rosegarden?"
"Not on the first branch,
Dear mother of ours."

22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader:
Sohnen i Roosengård
på den är iagh ey gladher:
Kära moder wår

["Then what will your father think,
Son in the rosegarden?"
"I am not happy about that,
Dear mother of ours."

23 Han will digh ighen tagha,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh skall wäl annars lagha,
Kära Moder wår

["He will take you back,
Son in the rosegarden."
"I suppose it will be otherwise (I will have it otherwise),
Dear mother of ours."

24 Din fader digh wäll finner,
Sohnen i roosengård.
Nappast han migh hinner
Kära Moder wår

["I suppose your father will find you,
Son in the rosegarden."
"He will hardly find (reach) me,
Dear mother of ours."]

25 Ähn Konungen i rijket:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
han finner wäl sihn lijke:
Käre Modher wåhr.

["Even the king in his realm,
Son in the rosegarden."
I suppose he will find his corpse,
Dear mother of ours.


26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända
sohnen i Roosengård
Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända
Kära moder wår

["Where do you think you will go,
Son in the rosegarden?"
"To where the world has an end,
Dear mother of ours."]

27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda
sohnen i Roosengård
Medh ahrbethe och möda,
Käre moder wår,

[How will you earn a living? (lit.: how will you feed yourself)
Son in the rosegarden?"
By work and weariness,
Dear mother of ours."]

28 När kommer du åter
Sohnen i Roosengård
När Elden blifaer wåter.
Kära moder wår

["When will you come back?
Son in the rosegarden?"
When the fire turns wet,
Dear mother of ours."]

29 När will du ighen komma.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När steenen står i blomma.
Kära moder wår

["When will you come back?
Son in the rosegarden."
When the stone is in bloom.
Dear mother of ours."]

30 När will du blijfwa hemma
Sohnen i Roosengård
När stenen böriar simma.
Kära moder wår

["When will you be home?
Son in the rosegarden."
"When the stone starts to swim,
Dear mother of ours."]

31 När skall iag till digh hinna.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När watnet böriar brinna
Käre moder wår

["When shall I reach you,
Son in the rosegarden?"
"When water starts burning,
Dear mother of ours."]

32 När seer iagh digh min bästa
Sohnen i Roosengård
När som det dagas wästan
Käre moder wår

[When will I see you again, my dear?
Son in the rose garden."
When day breaks in the west,
Dear mother of ours."]

33 Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga
Sohnen i Roosengård
der före i nu råda.
Kära moder wåhr
- i wänten oss aldrig.

["Shall I ask you any more questions?
Son in the rose garden."
That is for you to decide,
Dear mother of ours
- Expect us (me) never."]

* * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM

Correction to my 27 Oct 18 - 06:35 PM
The impossible events attending Sven's return are there in the early version. And I agree that his having murdered his brother is suggested, but it's not explicit, and I'm used to ballads stating what happens in simple terms rather than by allusion.

BTW I take "i Roosengård" (with whatever spelling) to mean in a place with that name rather than "in the rosegarden", both because of the capital letter and because there is no "-en" definite article.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 05:10 PM

Hi,

I've always considered Rosengård to have been thought of as a place- as in "Sven of the town of Roosengård." So here it could be transcribed: "Son of Roosengård." Originally this may not have been so. Anyone?

The opening stanza of this archaic Swedish ballad establishes the dialogue between the "son in the rose garden" and "Käre Moder wår (vår)" which is literally "dear mother ours." The "ours" refers to the other children and in stanza 8 -- there is a brother. The last line of the opening stanza "- i wänten oss aldrig" translates literally to: "Expect us never." The "us" apparently referring to the dead brother and the "son in the rose garden." These "plural" references (mother ours/ expect us) make more sense to be singular (mother mine/ expect me) but including the dead brother adds a morbid touch. The way the poem approaches the death in a circular pattern adds suspense to the curious dialogue. The mother suggests the father will forgive him and take him back but the son says he thinks otherwise. The son will leave where the father cannot find him. The "penance" stanzas begin with stanza 26 and continue to the end (stanza 33). What is made clear by the ending is that: the son (and his brother who is murdered) will not return. No reason is given for the murder of the fallen brother who is called a "scoundrel" showing that there was no love between the two. The ballad has been called "semi-comic" but rather seem to be an elaboration of what was an unknown shorter, coarser original version. The "blood" of the slain brother is not present. However the question of blood, common in British/American versions is also common in the Scandinavian variants:

Why is your sword so bloody?
Sven in Rosengård
I've killed my brother
Dear mother mine [standard transcript]

It's safe to assume this c. 1640 Swedish version is a "poetic" recreation of the standard ballad which dates the original ballad in Scandinavia back to the early 1600s.

Comments?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Oct 18 - 06:12 PM

GUEST 29 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM was me: didn't notice "From:" had gone blank. Cookie now reset.

> It's safe to assume this c. 1640 Swedish version is a "poetic" recreation of the standard ballad which dates the original ballad in Scandinavia back to the early 1600s.

I don't think I'd call any theory about the history of this ballad several hundred years ago "safe", but I'll give you plausible. It's very close to the later versions in some respects and a wild outlier in others.

The blood, the initially evasive answers and the explicit admission of fratricide are central elements of the plot in most versions from both Britain and Scandinavia. It does seem more likely that they were present in the earliest (no longer extant) version and got expunged in the odd "poetic recreation", rather than that they were originally absent and got added in at some later time.

If Taylor was wrong, and the ballad came from Scandinavia to Britain, it's plausible that the first evasion, the blood being Sven's own from his being injured by a horse, got changed to the blood being that of the horse; and then duplication added the hawk and the hound. Then at some point someone was dissatisfied by the absence of a clear motive and so put one in, though it remains a pretty obscure one.


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 31 Oct 18 - 10:18 PM

Hi Richard,

Good thinking, it's still a mystery.

I've compiled a few of the Swedish versions with text/melody. This is what I have so far (less than 40 versions):

A. "Sven in Rosengård" Swedish, dated early 1600s, Aa is MS from George Stephens' collection dated c. 1640.
    a. ["Sohnen i Roosengård"] (Son in the Rose Garden/ Son of Roosengård)- my title, dated c. 1640, from Swedish MS, UUB T 144 b, pp. 79-80; Jonsson I, pp. 190-195. 33 stanzas archaic Swedish.
    b. ["Sven in Rosengård"] Swedish, my title, guestimated c. 1762. KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 431-432, from Mrs. Beata Memsen, Kisa sn, Östergötland (born 1742 in Oppeby sn, Östergötland, d. 1831 in Kisa; Jonsson I, pp. 325-326). Recorded by L. F. Rääf, 1810. Printed as SF 87 B.
    c. ["Sven in Rosengård"] Swedish, my title, guestimated c. 1762. KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 429-430. From the girl, Anna Persdotter, the servant in L. F. Rääfs home (born 1733 in Målilla sn, Småland, came young years to Östergötland, 1819 at Millingstorp, Kisa sn; Jonsson I, pp. 326-327). Recorded by L. F. Rääf 1811. Printed as SF 87 A.
    d. ["Sven in Rosengård"] Swedish, my title, guestimated early 1800s. KB S 163 (Drake) No. 45. Östergötland. Recorded in the 1810s or possibly. a little later (by 1834). Printed as SF 87 A and B.
    e1. "Sven in Rosengård" Varmland. Listed by E. G. Geijer 1814 (Jonsson I, p. 420). e1: GA 67 [: I],
    e2. "Sven in Rosengård" Greenland, Alte Schwed. Volks-Melodies, 1818, p. 27.
    e2 & 3.: "Sven in Rosengård" Skilling print, based on GA 67 [: I], 1827, 1836 (= DgFT 340: 1-2; see Jonsson I, p. 655).
    e4. "Sven in Rosengård" Two shilling prints from 1902 (= DgFT 340: 3, 1).
    e5. "Sven in Rosengård" Shilling print 1902 (= DgFT 340: 5).
    e6. "Sven in Rosengård" Chapbook 1903, reprint of Eg.
    e7."Sven in Rosengård" Skilling print 1906 (KB E 1906 r3, reprint of Eg with little change of title page).
    e8. "Sven in Rosengård" Skilling print 1911 (= DgFT 340: 6; see Jonsson I, p. 656).
    e9. "Sven in Rosengård" Shilling print 1911, reprint of Ej (KB E 1911 h1 2a).
    f. "Sven in Rosengård" GA 67 [: II] From the soldier's wife, Hedda Berg f. Söderholm, Biskopskulla sn, Uppland (born 1764 in Järlås sn, Uppland, d. 1843 in Bishopskulla; Jonsson I, pp. 429-436). Recorded by A. A. Afzelius in the middle of the 1810s.
    g. "Sven in Rosengård" UUB V 6 a. Skåne. Submitted by later Archbishop Henrik Reuterdahl about 1820 (Jonsson I, pp. 516-518.
    h. "Sven in Rosengård" KB Vs 4, p. 284. Almundsryds sn, Småland. Recorded by G. O. Hyltén-Cavallius 1839. A rendering of a part of The text, made by George Stephens, is in KB Vs 3: 3, No. 176 C.
    i. "Sven in Rosengård" KB Vs 4, p. 461. Småland. Recorded about 1840 by Johanna Gustava Angel f. Lagergréen, Ryssby sn (born 1791 in Tolgssn, d. 1869; Jonsson I, p. 540). A rendering, made by George Stephens, is found in KB Vs 3: 3, No. 176 B.
    j1. "Sven in Rosengård" From Augusta Mathilda Öberg (born in Åkers sn, Södermanland). Recorded by her husband Emil Öberg in 1850-ta-Let. Yes: KVHAA Dybeck, Folk-lore V, p. 106.
    j2. "Sven in Rosengård" ULMA 1951: 31. Sent to Södermanks fuminnesfor. 1863. Printed as a contribution to Södermank's older culture. I, 1877, p. 32 (No. 8).
    j3. "Sven in Rosengård" MAB Folk Songs, p. 113 v. Submit to Mouse Akad in 1881.
    k. "Sven in Rosende." KVHAA Dybeck, Folk-lore V, p. 297. Valbo sn, Gästrikland. Recorded in the 1860s by the priest Erik Adolf Lidforss (born 1805 in Valbo, d. 1873), in his own memory. Submitted to R. Dybeck by 1870.
    l1. "Sven in Rosengård," taken from an 86-year-old woman, called 'Stenbrogumman', from Länna sn, Södermanland. Recorded by Gustaf Ericsson in the period 1860-1882. ULMA 347: 55, pp. 87-88.
    l2. "Sven in Rosengård" ULMA 347: 48, pp. 191-192. Printed in Contribution to Söder-Manl's older group. III, 1882, pp. 37-38. - A text of 13 strofer in ULMA 347: 44 a, pp. 119-120, is one of Ericsson made editing, where the records L and AC (below) are joined.
    m. "Swen i Rosengård" DFS 1906/95, p. 14. Tjust hd, Småland. Given by the fisherman J. P. Johansson (f. On Väderskär, Loftahammar sn) no later than 1883. Printed as a contribution to Södermanh's older culture. V, 1884, pp. 12-14, where Johansson is stated to have the version from Södermanland's archipelago.
    n. "Sven in rosengård" DAL 554, p. 6-8. The church church, Blekinge. Recorded by Sven Thomasson in the late half of the 1880s. A printout is available in ULMA 10531 (ms to the print in SvLm VII: 6, 1890, No. 9)
    o. "Sven i Rosengård." from N. Andersson, Swedish songs. Värmland, 1930, No. 302. Grava sn, Värmland. Written by Gustaf Löfgren probably 1870-1900 (no later than 1910); the version was sung by Modem Maja Löfgren (born 1809). Single verse, music only.
    p. "Sven i Rosengård." ULMA 29073: 150, p. 2. Västergötland. From a woman named Marg. Kjellgren, who probably had the version from her mother from Hjo. Recorded by Nils Stålberg, probably in the 1930s.
    q. "Sven in Rosengård." SR B 47231: 2: 11. After Elin Lind, Norhyttan, Grangärde sn, Dalarna (1876-1958). Recorded by Matts Amberg 1955. Reproduced on gramophone disc (The medieval ballad, SR RELP 5003-5006).
    r1. "Sven in rosengård" From f. d. college teacher Anna Grady f. Lundberg, Katrineholm (b. 1891 in Vilhelmina sn, Lapland, d. 1983). SVA BA 52. Recorded by Jan Ling in 1961.
    r2. "Sven in Rosengård" SR 63 / M / 6051: 2: 8. Recorded by Matts Amberg and Märta Ramsten, 1963.
    s1. "Sven in rosengård" After Helmy Hansson f. Blomfeldt (1910-1993), Stora Tuna sn, Dalarna; she had heard his grandmother Johanna Kristina Romlin (born 1863 in Söderbärke sn, Dalarna) and grandfather Erik Blomfeldt (born 1871 in Floda sn, Dalarna) sing the show. SR 64 / M / 6135: 3: 3. Recorded by Matts Amberg in 1964. Two recordings.
    s2. "Sven in rosengård" SVA BA 84. Recorded by Bengt R. Jonsson, Jan Ling and Margareta Jersild in 1964.
    s3. "Sven i rosengård" SVA BA 1514. Recorded by Gunnar Temhag 1972.
    t. "Sven in rosengård" Joukahainen IX, pp. 263-265. After Johanna Sandnabba, Malax sn, Ostrobothnia (eg in Purmo sn, Ostrobothnia) and an anthem by a person who sang stanza 2. Recorded by Isak Smith's 1883. Also printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 A.
    u. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 23, p. 63. Kimito Sn, Åboland. Recorded by Karl Ekman in 1891. Melody printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 d, the text printed as variant H to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A.
    v. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 94, p. 36 (melody), 49-50 (text). After Beata Lena Hallberg, Söderudden, Replots sn, Österbotten (b. 1832); she has learned the version of her mother. Listed by Vilhelm Sjöberg in 1904. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 a and D.
    w. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 532 No. 38. By Matilda Stjemberg, Söderveckoski, Borgå lf, Nyland (b. 1870); She had learned the version from her father. Listed by Alfhild Adolfsson (Forslin), 1934.
    x. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 532 No. 39. From Alfred Lindroos, Söderby, Pellinge, Borgå lf, Nyland (b. 1859). Listed by Alfhild Adolfsson (Forslin), 1934.
    y1. "Sven in rosengård." From Edith Johansson, Kimito sn, Åboland (born 1900 on Nötö, Nagu sn, Åboland, from 1937 resident in Kimito). Recorded by Matts Arnberg and U. P. Olrog, 1963. SR 63 / M / 6345: 3: 2.
    y2. "Sven in rosengård" SR 63 / M / 6345: 3: 2. A version of y1.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 31 Oct 18 - 10:56 PM

Here are some Swedish version I don't have the texts for:

    z. MM C. E. Södlings saml. 11: 3, S 264. According to Södling recorded in 1848 by himself after learned from a maid in Lerboholm », Lofta sn, Småland men probably an editing of Ea above. Melody with repeated refran.

    aa. ULMA R 623: 4 No. 433. From Peter Stengårds vis Collection at 4: o (Stengård was a church in Martebo sn, Gotland, d. 1880). 4 strofer. Printed as Säve No. 433.

    bb. ULMA 347: 55, p. 86. After the farm worker Gustaf Rydberg, Härads sn, Södermanland (b. 1820 in Kämbo sn, Södermanland, to Härad in 1867 when mast from Vansa sn). Recorded by Gustaf Ericsson between 1867 and 1890. 5 stanzas. A text about 13 stanzas in ULMA 347: 44 a, pp. 119-120 is one of Ericsson made editing, where the texts l. (above) and bb joined.

    cc: Fisherman's Book from Jämtland (private ownership). Written down on 1870s by Anna Hansdotter, Bringåsen, Kyrkås sn (1855-1935). 6 stanzas.

    dd: DAY VFF 205, pp. 7-8. From a close to 80-year-old Tilda Johansson, Finsbo, Lane-Ryrs sn, Bohuslän. Parody by Folke Linder 1921. 9 stanzas.

    ee: DAY VFF 1602, pp. 33-35. After Beata Pettersson, Romelanda sn, Bohuslän (b. 1861). Recorded by Hulda Hammarbäck 1927. 6 stanzas.

    ff: ULMA 2798: 4, p. 15. After Karin Nilsson, Boda sn, Värmland (b. 1858). Recorded by Gertrud Ericsson 1930. 1 stanza.

    gg: DAY VFF 2235, p. 4. After A. Falk, Bro sn, Bo mortgages. Recorded by Sven Rydstrand 1935. 4 verses

    hh: NM Folkminnessaml., Visor 3, pp. 125-126 (EU 19231). Brålanda sn, Dalsland. Written by J.F. Lundberg in his own memory; he had heard the version sung by a woman when he was 15 years old or 1876?. Sent to Nord. museum 1941. 5 stanzas.

    ii. SVA 275: B 50, p. 14. Written in own book by Terese Lättman, Stockholm (b. 1883 in the Congohd, småland); The song was sung by her father about 1890. Submitted to Radiotjänst 1947. 6 stanza.

    jj:   SVA BA 476. From Karin Lind f. Norberg, Lek sand (b. 1893 in Karlsarvet, Leksand). She had version from her grandmother Bröms Margita Jonsdotter (b. 1839) Recorded by Märta Ramsten, 1969. Melody as well as 1 verse, a fragment.

    kk:  SVA B A 1623. After Brother Harnesk, Norsjö sn, Västerbotten (born 1882 in Norsjö.) Recorded by Bengt Martinsson 1972. The text is read. 4 stanzas.

   ll1: From Thyra Karlsson, Östersund (born 1912 in Alanäs sn, Jamtland). Will probably return in writing (see GAB 54: 2).

    ll2: SVA B A 1584. Recorded by Märta Ramsten 1972. Melody as well as 11 stanzas.

    ll3: Jämtks County Museum, Östersund, Music C35.1.2. Written by Thyra Karlsson 1974. 11 stanzas

    mm:   SVA BA 2929. After Ragnar Swedberg, Mörrums Sn, Blekinge (born 1912 in Gothenburg). He had learned the version of his Mother Gerda Maria Nilsson (1884-1939), which was from Karlstad. Recorded by Märta Ramsten 1976. Melody as well as 1 stanza text (two takes)

    nn:   IF Rancken 3, 165 No. 317. Lappfjärds sn, Öster bottom. Recorded by Jonas Spolander (flour.) And J. E. Wefvar (text) after »Mrs. Spolander» 1875-1876. Melody as well as 10 stanzas. Mel. printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35b, the text printed as variant G to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A.

      oo: IF Rancken 5, 186 nr 351. Terjärv sn, Österbot TEN. Recorded by J. E. Wefvar in 1870 or 1880. 11 stanzas. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35F.

    pp:   SLS 1, p. 125. After Maja Vitaniemi, Korsnäs sn, Ostrobothnia. Recorded by Johan Dahlbo 1882-1883. 16 stanzas. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35B

    qq:   SLS 10, pp. 451-452. After Sofia Finnilä, Kronoby Sn, Ostrobothnia. Recorded by Henrik Ståhl 1889. 10 stanzas. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 E.

    rr:    SLS 47, pp. 52-53. Esse sn, Ostrobothnia. Uppteck
nad by John Finnas in 1894. 6 stanzas. Printed as variant J to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A.

    ss: SLS 1068 (Visors from Replot, assembled by Wilhelm
Sjöberg), pp. 135-136. Söderudden, Replots sn, Österbotten. Print dated 1901. Ev. same thing as V above. Melody as well as 15 stanzas.

    tt: Constructions II, 1910, p. IV-V. North Memorial, Kvevlax sn, Ostrobothnia. Listed by Else Te gengren. Melody as well as 9 stanzas. Mel. even printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 f, the text also printed as a variant Ant I to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A.

      uu: IF 170, IX (No. 112). After the "hostess Moberg" Malm, Pargas Sn, Turku. Listed by Otto Andersson around 1910. Melody as well as 3 stanzas. Mel. printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 c, the text printed as variant N to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A.

    vv: IF 110, h. 6, s. 29-31. Efter Vilhelmina Lehtinen, Helsingfors, Nyland; hon hade lärt visan av sin mor som var från Österbotten. Upptecknad av A. P. Svensson ca 1910. 13 strofer. Tryckt som FSF V:1 nr 35 C.

    ww:   IF 110, h. 6, s. 29. Efter »from Lindholm», Helsing­ fors, Nyland (f. 1826); hon hade lärt visan av sin mor. pptecknad av A. P. Svensson ca 1910. 5 stanzas. similar to variant K till FSF V:1 nr 35 A.

    xx:   SLS 535 nr 5. Efter Agnes Friman, Tenala sn, Ny­land (f. 1902). Upptecknad av Greta Dahlström 1928. Melody-fragment of 2 stanzas of text. tryckt same variant M till FSF V; 1 nr 35 A.

    yy: SLS 535 nr 4. Efter Therese Österberg f. Borg­ ström, Gröndal, Esbo sn, Nyland (f. 1867 på Kavall, Esbo). Upptecknad av Greta Dahlström 1932. Melody with 9 stanzas. Mel. tryckt som FSF V:1 nr 35 e, texten tryckt some variant L till FSF V;1 nr 35 A. xx:   Brage, Folkvisor I, [1922], nr 45. Åland. Melody (arrangerad av Karl Ekman) with 3 stanzas.

   zz:   Dahlström & Forslin, Finl. sång och visa, 1950, nr 153. Åland. Texten följer nära FSF V:1 nr 35 B. Melody with 16 stanzas.

* * * *

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 18 - 09:19 PM

Hi,

Are there versions from Iceland and, or Faroe?

I only have a few Danish and Finnish versions although there are more recent ones:

B. "Velisurmaaja" ["The Brother Slayer"] also "Werinen Pojka; Der blutige Sohn" ["Werinen Pojka; The Bloody Son"] Finnish early 1800s (1819 Upsala)
    a. "Werinen Pojka; The Bloody Son" from Upsala in 1819 by H.R. von Schroter "Finnische Runen, finnisch and deutsch" reprinted Stuttgart in 1834. Taylor FF A
    b. "Velisurmaaja" [Brother Slayer] written down in 1823 in Abo by J.J. Pippingkold; MS in Helingfors (single stanza) shelfmark D.IV.47. Taylor FF D
    c. "Velisurmaaja" was published in Elias Lönnrot's collection of traditional Finnish poems, the Kanteletar in 1840.
    d. ["Veli Surmaaja"] collected by Kaarle Krohn in Tavastland from Adolfine Monin about 1884. Taylor FF C.
    e. "Poikaini iloinen" [My Happy Son] My title, from Suomen Kansan Vanhat Runot volume IV2, No. 2701. from Moloskovitsa, Goritsa. J. Fr. Ruotsalainen. n. 676. dated 1901 from Annikka Roitto.

C. "Svend i Rosengaard" Danish as Grundtvig A, collected in Sydsaelland in 1844 and 1846.
    a. "Svend i Rosengaard" from Grundtvig collected in Sydsaelland in 1844 and 1846 and published in "Danmarks gamle Folkviser," 1853.
    b. "Svend i Rosenslund" from "Danmarks gamle Folkviser," 1895 as taken down in Fyn from Gaardejar Lars Fredericksen before 1884.

* * * *

Richie


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