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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM >>>>>Someone took the plot and did a comprehensive re-write.<<<<<< Not sure I agree with that, but further study and evidence may well show that to be the case. I'm convinced it happened with many of the Scandi-Brit ballads. There appears to be 2 types: Those where the plot was recycled in Britain; and those that were a direct translation. There are also examples where both of these occurred with the same ballad, and indeed where some were translated from another language more than once before entering oral tradition here. I strongly suspect the direct translations are in the majority, but all of this can be no more than conjecture as those doing the translating and rewriting were not interested in quoting their sources, for a variety of reasons. I'll not develop this any further just now as some of my theories are political and there's enough strife on these threads at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richard Mellish Date: 15 Mar 19 - 09:51 AM Fair comment, Steve. Continuing to think about the British and Scandinavian versions, one aspect that strikes me is how much they do or don't have in common. At the top level they are very similar: the overall structure of a dialogue between mother and son, the blood leading to the admission of fratricide, the son's going away, the impossible events attending his return, and in some versions a bit about what happens to his wife and children. But there are major differences in the details. Someone took the plot and did a comprehensive re-write. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Mar 19 - 06:13 PM Hi Richard His method was more or less what most of us use when analysing ballads. However even with all of the extant versions it's almost impossible to draw cast-iron conclusions because we don't know how many versions were lost between the first and the last. We are often reduced to looking at possibles and probables. Generally the older the ballad the more it has been reworked. At least with the earliest we have, it has a lot in common with more recent Scandinavian versions. Useful conclusions can be drawn re the evolution of a ballad if in looking at several versions over several centuries it can be shown that the rhyming steadily deteriorated. There are English ballads where this can be demonstrated. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richard Mellish Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM I am reluctantly coming around to the view that maybe Archer Taylor got his overall conclusion (transmission from Britain to Scandinavia) wrong, but I still think there is considerable merit in his method. That was to look at various elements of the ballad, list which elements are in which versions, and then surmise whether any given element was more likely to have been in earlier versions and lost later or to have been absent in earlier versions and added later. For example there is the difference between the mother's first noticing blood on the son's clothes or foot and then on the sword, versus noticing it on the sword straight away but being given excuses about hound, mare, etc. Did the mare's blood come first, transmogrifying into the horse or foals than Sven has been tending to, was it the other way round, or are they independent, present in the two different roles only by chance? One feature (not known to Taylor) that I find striking is the consistent rhyming in that very old Swedish version versus a total absence of rhyming in most of the later versions. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Lighter Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:36 AM Hi, Richie. Regarding radically changing tastes, consider "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" (1867), which was written by J. B. Geoghegan as comic song and was so regarded for many years. There's even a contemporaneous mention of crippled Union Army veterans in an old soldiers' home laughing their heads off at it. Some of the joke may have come from a keen awareness (long since lost) that it was a black-humor parody of Patrick S. Gilmore's immensely popular "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" (1863). Not the other way around, by the way.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Anne Neilson Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM Jeannie sometimes sang the bottomless boat stanza -- I first heard her version without this verse and that is how I originally learned it; but I distinctly remember being jolted on an occasion when she included the bottomless boat and I suddenly realised that her slow, majestic tune was a variant of the 'Gin I were where the Gadie rins' melody. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 13 Mar 19 - 07:55 PM Steve, By my memory it was Grundtvig, Child's mentor who called the Swedish version Semi-comic without providing text. The text disappeared in the early 1900s and Taylor had no text of it. The version was later found in a collection of pseudo-religious manuscripts. Anne, Son David is a curious addition to the Child 13 variants by Robertson from the tradition of Child A (Motherwell) and it's source (her mother c. 1916) is a bit of a mystery. The bottomless boat stanza is generally Appalachian and Robertson would have access to those texts, which of course were originally British. I'm not sure if Jeannie sang the bottomless boat stanza since it's not on her first recording. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Mar 19 - 07:18 PM Then they'll have fun trying to work out what occurred, which is what we're doing here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Anne Neilson Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:32 PM Thanks to Steve and Lighter for their responses to my post about 'Son David' -- of course it matters to no-one other than myself. But perhaps in two hundred years someone might come across my text on some obscure website and ponder the patterns.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:10 PM In the absence of any evidence either way I'd be quite happy to accept the early Swedish version on face value and use it as the earliest known text. It has cohesion and is not overelaborated. It has all the hallmarks of a traditional North European ballad as set down by Child. As we know Scandinavian balladry in general was much much stronger and well-established in the 16th century than here in Britain, I'd be inclined to give it prime status (as with Child's A versions) with the proviso that there were probably earlier versions in Scandinavia. I think things will become clearer when you have all your versions together and can compare all texts. Personally I think Taylor is at most a distraction for reasons I've given earlier. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM Welcome back, Richie, once again. I too cannot see where the 'semi-comic' element lies, but we must take into account that it comes from a time long ago. We don't need to go back that far to be aware of changing tastes. Many nineteenth century songs that are labeled 'comic' we would be hard put to find any humour in. Also ballads move in and out of burlesque like nobody's business. Just look at Lord Lovell. From about 1750 up to about 1850 the ballad was considered a piece of fun, a burlesque. Some versions were even further exaggerated to promote the comic element. When it was widely printed on broadsides the country people saw it as a serious song and that's how it was collected. Same with William Taylor. The original c1750 broadside had about 20 double stanzas, which came into the 19th century on broadsides in a variety of shorter forms, at least one a burlesque called Billy Taylor. Billy Taylor was taken as a serious ballad eventually and even became the dominant form in oral tradition. What we need to know was at what point was it referred to as 'semi comic'. Could this have been a misprint of 'serio comic' which was a description of nineteenth century actors? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM 'Differing slightly', 'recreation'. the answer must inevitably be both, but it is very unlikely to matter to anyone but yourself, Anne. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Lighter Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:56 PM Am not sure that the label matters, but if you must choose, "variation" to me sounds less deliberate or extensive than "recreation." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Anne Neilson Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:43 PM I first learned Jeannie Robertson's version around 1958/9 in my school in Rutherglen (just outside Glasgow in Scotland): my English teacher Norman Buchan had tapes of Jeannie from Hamish Henderson and I was enthralled by her singing -- and fortunate enough to see her perform live on more than a few occasions. I've been singing Son David ever since, and I thought I was singing the version I first heard, but much later I realised that it had evolved. In some of the versions of Jeannie singing (recordings from School of Scottish Studies from Kist o Riches site), she excuses the blood as coming from 3 sources - horse, hawk, hound - before admitting to it being from the brother; she sometimes includes, but sometimes omits the 'bottomless boat' verse . When I re-examined my own version, I realised that I had done some 'adjusting', probably to suit my notions of ballad format and patterning, so my final version comes out as this:- O what's the blood that's on your sword, My son David, O son David? What's the blood that's on your sword? Come, promise tell me true. O that's the blood of my grey hound, Hi, lady mother, ho, lady mother. That's the blood of my grey hound Because it widna be ruled by me. O that blood it is ower RED... etc. O that's the blood of my grey mare ...etc. O that blood it is ower CLEAR ... etc. O that's the blood of my brother John ... etc. But I'll sail away in a bottomless boat, In a bottomless boat, in a bottomless boat. I'll sail away in a bottomless boat And I'll ne'er come back again. O but when will you come back again? ... etc. When the sun and the moon meet in yon glen, Hi, lady mother, ho, lady mother; When the sun and the moon meet in yon glen Then I'll come back again. SO, my question is -- would my version best be described as merely 'differing slightly' from a previous recording, or as a recreation? (I now know why I must have made my changes, and I'm happy with them -- but, the point is that I didn't know it was happening over that time.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM Hi, I'm still here just had some life changes and won't have time to work on Carpenter/Child ballads for a while. Final corrections and suggestions of the earliest version of Child 13, the Swedish "Sohnen i Roosengård," have been made by Per G. L. Ahlander, an independent scholar who is a member of the Swedish Society for Musicology. See his footnote below. The murder of the brother itself is never literally stated but carefully implied through the dialogue beginning with Stanza 8. Here is the complete ballad and translation: Sohnen i Roosengård (my title, dated c. 1640, from Swedish MS, UUB T 144 b, pp. 79-80; Jonsson I, pp. 190-195.) [Son in the Rose Garden/ Son of Roosengård] 1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar, Sohnen i Roosengård Mycket der vthi feelar, Käre Moder wår (vår) - i wänten oss aldrig. ["All good things I tell to you, Son in the rose garden." Many of these things are flawed, Dear mother of ours [lit.: Dear mother ours] - Expect us[me] never." 2 Nåde och frijd aff herran: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: den ware migh ey fierran. Käre moder wår ["Grace and peace of the Lord Son in the rose garden: May it not be far from me. Dear mother of ours."] 3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria: Sonen i Roosengård: Nu först det icke börias Käre Moder wår ["Can I ask you of good things, Son in the rosegarden?" "Don’t start that now, Dear mother of ours."] 4 "Annat iagh ey tänker: Sohnen i Roosengårdh, dett werlden migh ihnskänker, Käre moder wår ["I don’t think anything else, Son in the rosegarden. "Whatever the world brings me, Dear mother of ours."] 5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa: Sohnen i Rosengårdh: effter som dee migh pröfwa: Käre moder wår ["Every day you do good deeds, Son in the rosegarden." "Because they test/challenge me, Dear mother of ours."] 6 Rijkedom effter trachta: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: den iagh lijtet achtar, Kära moder wår ["Coveting riches: Son in the rosegarden." "I have but little desire of that, Dear mother of ours."] 7 Redeligen wandra: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: hoos edher och bland andra: Kära moder vår ["To wander (ie. to conduct myself) decently Son in the rose garden." "With you and among others, Dear mother of ours."] 8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher: Sohnen i Roosengårdh han war migh aldrigh godher Kära Moder wår ["Nothing is heard of your brother, Son in the rose garden." "He was never good to me, Dear mother of ours."] 9 Ey mon han dödher wara, Sohnen i Roosengård: Jo, så plä skalkar fahra Kära moder wår ["Might he be dead? Son in the rose garden." "Indeed, that is often the fate of scoundrels, Dear mother of ours."] 10 Aldrigh du det förgäter, Sohnen i Roosengårdh: Jagh slipper fulle släter: Käre Moder wår ["You will never forget it (his murder), Son in the rosegarden." "I will avoid it completely, Dear mother of ours."] 11 Ney du skall det betaala: Sohnen i Roosengård: Jagh will der medh förhaala Kära Moder wår ["No, you must pay for this (murder): Son in the rosegarden." "I shall delay it, Dear mother of ours."] 12 Sannerligh det ey hielper: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: fögha det migh stielper. Käre Moder wår, ["Truly it will not help: Son in the rosegarden." It will hardly hinder me, Dear mother of ours."] 13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa: Sohnen i Roosengård. här i hielper det fögha. Käre Moder wår, ["You will not cause me sorrow; Son in the rosegarden." "That can hardly be helped. Dear mother of ours."] 14 Rundeligh kan du bööta: Sohnen i Roosengård. Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta Kära moder wår ["You will pay in full, Son in the rosegarden." "I can’t stand that they (you?) threaten me, Dear mother of ours."] 15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara: Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra. Kära moder wår ["You should be near me, Son in the rosegarden." I will not be without danger, Dear mother of ours."] 16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt, Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt. Kära Moder wår [I wanted it to be otherwise for you, Son in the rosegarden." I fear it is now too late, Dear mother of ours."] 17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta: Sohnen i Rosengård Det är ey till det bästa: Kära moder wåhr ["I had thought I would comfort you, Son in the rosegarden. That would not be for the best, Dear mother of ours."] 19 Så will du hedan reesa: Sohnen i Roosengård Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa Käre moder wåhr ["So you want to travel away from here, Son in the rosegarden?" Yes, to wherever I find relief, Dear mother of ours."] 21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste: Sohnen i Roosengård. Ey det på första Qwisten. Ka ra Moder wår ["So tell me then where your nest will be (lit. So tell me then your nest), Son in the rosegarden?" "Not on the first branch, Dear mother of ours." 22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader: Sohnen i Roosengård på den är iagh ey gladher: Kära moder wår ["Then what will your father think, Son in the rosegarden?" "I am not happy about father's thoughts, Dear mother of ours." 23 Han will digh ighen tagha, Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh skall wäl annars lagha, Kära Moder wår ["He will take you back, Son in the rosegarden." "I suppose it will be otherwise (I will have it otherwise), Dear mother of ours." 24 Din fader digh wäll finner, Sohnen i roosengård. Nappast han migh hinner Kära Moder wår ["I suppose your father will find you, Son in the rosegarden." "He will hardly reach me, Dear mother of ours."] 25 Ähn Konungen i rijket: Sohnen i Roosengård. han finner wäl sihn lijke: Käre Modher wåhr. ["As the king in his realm, Son in the rosegarden." I suppose he will find his kin, Dear mother of ours. 26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända sohnen i Roosengård Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända Kära moder wår ["Where do you think you will go, Son in the rosegarden?" "To where the world has an end, Dear mother of ours."] 27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda sohnen i Roosengård Medh ahrbethe och möda, Käre moder wår, [How will you earn a living? (lit.: how will you feed yourself) Son in the rosegarden?" By work and weariness, Dear mother of ours."] 28 När kommer du åter Sohnen i Roosengård När Elden blifaer wåter. Kära moder wår ["When will you come back? Son in the rosegarden?" When the fire turns wet, Dear mother of ours."] 29 När will du ighen komma. Sohnen i Roosengård När steenen står i blomma. Kära moder wår ["When will you come back? Son in the rose garden." When the stone is in bloom. Dear mother of ours."] 30 När will du blijfwa hemma Sohnen i Roosengård När stenen böriar simma. Kära moder wår ["When will you be home? Son in the rose garden." "When the stone starts to swim, Dear mother of ours."] 31 När skall iag till digh hinna. Sohnen i Roosengård När watnet böriar brinna Käre moder wår ["When shall I reach you, Son in the rose garden?" "When water starts burning, Dear mother of ours."] 32 När seer iagh digh min bästa Sohnen i Roosengård När som det dagas wästan Käre moder wår [When will I see you again, my dear? Son in the rose garden." When day breaks in the west, Dear mother of ours."] 33 Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga Sohnen i Roosengård der före i nu råda. Kära moder wåhr - i wänten oss aldrig. ["Shall I ask any more about you? Son in the rose garden." That is for you to decide, Dear mother of ours - Expect us (me) never."] The opening stanza of this archaic Swedish ballad establishes the dialogue between the "son in the rose garden" and "Käre Moder wår (vår)" which is literally "dear mother ours." The "ours" refers to the other children and in stanza 8 -- there is a brother, recently deceased. The last line of the opening stanza "- i wänten oss aldrig" translates litarally to: "Expect us never." The "us" apparently referring to the dead brother and the "son in the rose garden." These "plural" references[1] (mother ours/ expect us) make more sense to be singular (mother mine/ expect me) but including the dead brother adds a morbid touch. The way the poem approaches the death in a circular pattern adds suspense to the curious dialogue. The mother suggests the father will forgive him and take him back but the son says he thinks otherwise. The son will leave where the father cannot find him. The "pennace" stanzas begin with stanza 26 and continue to the end (stanza 33). What is made clear by the ending is that: the son (and his brother who is murdered) will not return. No reason is given for the murder of the fallen brother who is called a "scoundrel" by his brother--showing that there was no love between the two and that perhaps he deserved to be murdered. The ballad has been called "semi-comic" but rather seem to be an elabroration of what was an unknown shorter, coarser original version similar to the extant traditional Scandinavian versions. The "blood" of the slain brother is not present. * * * 1. The singular/plural issue remains ambiguous. The plural can of course refer to two people, but in archaic Swedish, it could also be used as a more polite form when referring to one person only. Possibly even when referring back to oneself (cf. in English: “We are not amused”, said Queen Victoria!). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 04 Nov 18 - 09:19 PM Hi, Are there versions from Iceland and, or Faroe? I only have a few Danish and Finnish versions although there are more recent ones: B. "Velisurmaaja" ["The Brother Slayer"] also "Werinen Pojka; Der blutige Sohn" ["Werinen Pojka; The Bloody Son"] Finnish early 1800s (1819 Upsala) a. "Werinen Pojka; The Bloody Son" from Upsala in 1819 by H.R. von Schroter "Finnische Runen, finnisch and deutsch" reprinted Stuttgart in 1834. Taylor FF A b. "Velisurmaaja" [Brother Slayer] written down in 1823 in Abo by J.J. Pippingkold; MS in Helingfors (single stanza) shelfmark D.IV.47. Taylor FF D c. "Velisurmaaja" was published in Elias Lönnrot's collection of traditional Finnish poems, the Kanteletar in 1840. d. ["Veli Surmaaja"] collected by Kaarle Krohn in Tavastland from Adolfine Monin about 1884. Taylor FF C. e. "Poikaini iloinen" [My Happy Son] My title, from Suomen Kansan Vanhat Runot volume IV2, No. 2701. from Moloskovitsa, Goritsa. J. Fr. Ruotsalainen. n. 676. dated 1901 from Annikka Roitto. C. "Svend i Rosengaard" Danish as Grundtvig A, collected in Sydsaelland in 1844 and 1846. a. "Svend i Rosengaard" from Grundtvig collected in Sydsaelland in 1844 and 1846 and published in "Danmarks gamle Folkviser," 1853. b. "Svend i Rosenslund" from "Danmarks gamle Folkviser," 1895 as taken down in Fyn from Gaardejar Lars Fredericksen before 1884. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 31 Oct 18 - 10:56 PM Here are some Swedish version I don't have the texts for: z. MM C. E. Södlings saml. 11: 3, S 264. According to Södling recorded in 1848 by himself after learned from a maid in Lerboholm », Lofta sn, Småland men probably an editing of Ea above. Melody with repeated refran. aa. ULMA R 623: 4 No. 433. From Peter Stengårds vis Collection at 4: o (Stengård was a church in Martebo sn, Gotland, d. 1880). 4 strofer. Printed as Säve No. 433. bb. ULMA 347: 55, p. 86. After the farm worker Gustaf Rydberg, Härads sn, Södermanland (b. 1820 in Kämbo sn, Södermanland, to Härad in 1867 when mast from Vansa sn). Recorded by Gustaf Ericsson between 1867 and 1890. 5 stanzas. A text about 13 stanzas in ULMA 347: 44 a, pp. 119-120 is one of Ericsson made editing, where the texts l. (above) and bb joined. cc: Fisherman's Book from Jämtland (private ownership). Written down on 1870s by Anna Hansdotter, Bringåsen, Kyrkås sn (1855-1935). 6 stanzas. dd: DAY VFF 205, pp. 7-8. From a close to 80-year-old Tilda Johansson, Finsbo, Lane-Ryrs sn, Bohuslän. Parody by Folke Linder 1921. 9 stanzas. ee: DAY VFF 1602, pp. 33-35. After Beata Pettersson, Romelanda sn, Bohuslän (b. 1861). Recorded by Hulda Hammarbäck 1927. 6 stanzas. ff: ULMA 2798: 4, p. 15. After Karin Nilsson, Boda sn, Värmland (b. 1858). Recorded by Gertrud Ericsson 1930. 1 stanza. gg: DAY VFF 2235, p. 4. After A. Falk, Bro sn, Bo mortgages. Recorded by Sven Rydstrand 1935. 4 verses hh: NM Folkminnessaml., Visor 3, pp. 125-126 (EU 19231). Brålanda sn, Dalsland. Written by J.F. Lundberg in his own memory; he had heard the version sung by a woman when he was 15 years old or 1876?. Sent to Nord. museum 1941. 5 stanzas. ii. SVA 275: B 50, p. 14. Written in own book by Terese Lättman, Stockholm (b. 1883 in the Congohd, småland); The song was sung by her father about 1890. Submitted to Radiotjänst 1947. 6 stanza. jj: SVA BA 476. From Karin Lind f. Norberg, Lek sand (b. 1893 in Karlsarvet, Leksand). She had version from her grandmother Bröms Margita Jonsdotter (b. 1839) Recorded by Märta Ramsten, 1969. Melody as well as 1 verse, a fragment. kk: SVA B A 1623. After Brother Harnesk, Norsjö sn, Västerbotten (born 1882 in Norsjö.) Recorded by Bengt Martinsson 1972. The text is read. 4 stanzas. ll1: From Thyra Karlsson, Östersund (born 1912 in Alanäs sn, Jamtland). Will probably return in writing (see GAB 54: 2). ll2: SVA B A 1584. Recorded by Märta Ramsten 1972. Melody as well as 11 stanzas. ll3: Jämtks County Museum, Östersund, Music C35.1.2. Written by Thyra Karlsson 1974. 11 stanzas mm: SVA BA 2929. After Ragnar Swedberg, Mörrums Sn, Blekinge (born 1912 in Gothenburg). He had learned the version of his Mother Gerda Maria Nilsson (1884-1939), which was from Karlstad. Recorded by Märta Ramsten 1976. Melody as well as 1 stanza text (two takes) nn: IF Rancken 3, 165 No. 317. Lappfjärds sn, Öster bottom. Recorded by Jonas Spolander (flour.) And J. E. Wefvar (text) after »Mrs. Spolander» 1875-1876. Melody as well as 10 stanzas. Mel. printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35b, the text printed as variant G to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A. oo: IF Rancken 5, 186 nr 351. Terjärv sn, Österbot TEN. Recorded by J. E. Wefvar in 1870 or 1880. 11 stanzas. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35F. pp: SLS 1, p. 125. After Maja Vitaniemi, Korsnäs sn, Ostrobothnia. Recorded by Johan Dahlbo 1882-1883. 16 stanzas. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35B qq: SLS 10, pp. 451-452. After Sofia Finnilä, Kronoby Sn, Ostrobothnia. Recorded by Henrik Ståhl 1889. 10 stanzas. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 E. rr: SLS 47, pp. 52-53. Esse sn, Ostrobothnia. Uppteck nad by John Finnas in 1894. 6 stanzas. Printed as variant J to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A. ss: SLS 1068 (Visors from Replot, assembled by Wilhelm Sjöberg), pp. 135-136. Söderudden, Replots sn, Österbotten. Print dated 1901. Ev. same thing as V above. Melody as well as 15 stanzas. tt: Constructions II, 1910, p. IV-V. North Memorial, Kvevlax sn, Ostrobothnia. Listed by Else Te gengren. Melody as well as 9 stanzas. Mel. even printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 f, the text also printed as a variant Ant I to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A. uu: IF 170, IX (No. 112). After the "hostess Moberg" Malm, Pargas Sn, Turku. Listed by Otto Andersson around 1910. Melody as well as 3 stanzas. Mel. printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 c, the text printed as variant N to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A. vv: IF 110, h. 6, s. 29-31. Efter Vilhelmina Lehtinen, Helsingfors, Nyland; hon hade lärt visan av sin mor som var från Österbotten. Upptecknad av A. P. Svensson ca 1910. 13 strofer. Tryckt som FSF V:1 nr 35 C. ww: IF 110, h. 6, s. 29. Efter »from Lindholm», Helsing fors, Nyland (f. 1826); hon hade lärt visan av sin mor. pptecknad av A. P. Svensson ca 1910. 5 stanzas. similar to variant K till FSF V:1 nr 35 A. xx: SLS 535 nr 5. Efter Agnes Friman, Tenala sn, Nyland (f. 1902). Upptecknad av Greta Dahlström 1928. Melody-fragment of 2 stanzas of text. tryckt same variant M till FSF V; 1 nr 35 A. yy: SLS 535 nr 4. Efter Therese Österberg f. Borg ström, Gröndal, Esbo sn, Nyland (f. 1867 på Kavall, Esbo). Upptecknad av Greta Dahlström 1932. Melody with 9 stanzas. Mel. tryckt som FSF V:1 nr 35 e, texten tryckt some variant L till FSF V;1 nr 35 A. xx: Brage, Folkvisor I, [1922], nr 45. Åland. Melody (arrangerad av Karl Ekman) with 3 stanzas. zz: Dahlström & Forslin, Finl. sång och visa, 1950, nr 153. Åland. Texten följer nära FSF V:1 nr 35 B. Melody with 16 stanzas. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 31 Oct 18 - 10:18 PM Hi Richard, Good thinking, it's still a mystery. I've compiled a few of the Swedish versions with text/melody. This is what I have so far (less than 40 versions): A. "Sven in Rosengård" Swedish, dated early 1600s, Aa is MS from George Stephens' collection dated c. 1640. a. ["Sohnen i Roosengård"] (Son in the Rose Garden/ Son of Roosengård)- my title, dated c. 1640, from Swedish MS, UUB T 144 b, pp. 79-80; Jonsson I, pp. 190-195. 33 stanzas archaic Swedish. b. ["Sven in Rosengård"] Swedish, my title, guestimated c. 1762. KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 431-432, from Mrs. Beata Memsen, Kisa sn, Östergötland (born 1742 in Oppeby sn, Östergötland, d. 1831 in Kisa; Jonsson I, pp. 325-326). Recorded by L. F. Rääf, 1810. Printed as SF 87 B. c. ["Sven in Rosengård"] Swedish, my title, guestimated c. 1762. KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 429-430. From the girl, Anna Persdotter, the servant in L. F. Rääfs home (born 1733 in Målilla sn, Småland, came young years to Östergötland, 1819 at Millingstorp, Kisa sn; Jonsson I, pp. 326-327). Recorded by L. F. Rääf 1811. Printed as SF 87 A. d. ["Sven in Rosengård"] Swedish, my title, guestimated early 1800s. KB S 163 (Drake) No. 45. Östergötland. Recorded in the 1810s or possibly. a little later (by 1834). Printed as SF 87 A and B. e1. "Sven in Rosengård" Varmland. Listed by E. G. Geijer 1814 (Jonsson I, p. 420). e1: GA 67 [: I], e2. "Sven in Rosengård" Greenland, Alte Schwed. Volks-Melodies, 1818, p. 27. e2 & 3.: "Sven in Rosengård" Skilling print, based on GA 67 [: I], 1827, 1836 (= DgFT 340: 1-2; see Jonsson I, p. 655). e4. "Sven in Rosengård" Two shilling prints from 1902 (= DgFT 340: 3, 1). e5. "Sven in Rosengård" Shilling print 1902 (= DgFT 340: 5). e6. "Sven in Rosengård" Chapbook 1903, reprint of Eg. e7."Sven in Rosengård" Skilling print 1906 (KB E 1906 r3, reprint of Eg with little change of title page). e8. "Sven in Rosengård" Skilling print 1911 (= DgFT 340: 6; see Jonsson I, p. 656). e9. "Sven in Rosengård" Shilling print 1911, reprint of Ej (KB E 1911 h1 2a). f. "Sven in Rosengård" GA 67 [: II] From the soldier's wife, Hedda Berg f. Söderholm, Biskopskulla sn, Uppland (born 1764 in Järlås sn, Uppland, d. 1843 in Bishopskulla; Jonsson I, pp. 429-436). Recorded by A. A. Afzelius in the middle of the 1810s. g. "Sven in Rosengård" UUB V 6 a. Skåne. Submitted by later Archbishop Henrik Reuterdahl about 1820 (Jonsson I, pp. 516-518. h. "Sven in Rosengård" KB Vs 4, p. 284. Almundsryds sn, Småland. Recorded by G. O. Hyltén-Cavallius 1839. A rendering of a part of The text, made by George Stephens, is in KB Vs 3: 3, No. 176 C. i. "Sven in Rosengård" KB Vs 4, p. 461. Småland. Recorded about 1840 by Johanna Gustava Angel f. Lagergréen, Ryssby sn (born 1791 in Tolgssn, d. 1869; Jonsson I, p. 540). A rendering, made by George Stephens, is found in KB Vs 3: 3, No. 176 B. j1. "Sven in Rosengård" From Augusta Mathilda Öberg (born in Åkers sn, Södermanland). Recorded by her husband Emil Öberg in 1850-ta-Let. Yes: KVHAA Dybeck, Folk-lore V, p. 106. j2. "Sven in Rosengård" ULMA 1951: 31. Sent to Södermanks fuminnesfor. 1863. Printed as a contribution to Södermank's older culture. I, 1877, p. 32 (No. 8). j3. "Sven in Rosengård" MAB Folk Songs, p. 113 v. Submit to Mouse Akad in 1881. k. "Sven in Rosende." KVHAA Dybeck, Folk-lore V, p. 297. Valbo sn, Gästrikland. Recorded in the 1860s by the priest Erik Adolf Lidforss (born 1805 in Valbo, d. 1873), in his own memory. Submitted to R. Dybeck by 1870. l1. "Sven in Rosengård," taken from an 86-year-old woman, called 'Stenbrogumman', from Länna sn, Södermanland. Recorded by Gustaf Ericsson in the period 1860-1882. ULMA 347: 55, pp. 87-88. l2. "Sven in Rosengård" ULMA 347: 48, pp. 191-192. Printed in Contribution to Söder-Manl's older group. III, 1882, pp. 37-38. - A text of 13 strofer in ULMA 347: 44 a, pp. 119-120, is one of Ericsson made editing, where the records L and AC (below) are joined. m. "Swen i Rosengård" DFS 1906/95, p. 14. Tjust hd, Småland. Given by the fisherman J. P. Johansson (f. On Väderskär, Loftahammar sn) no later than 1883. Printed as a contribution to Södermanh's older culture. V, 1884, pp. 12-14, where Johansson is stated to have the version from Södermanland's archipelago. n. "Sven in rosengård" DAL 554, p. 6-8. The church church, Blekinge. Recorded by Sven Thomasson in the late half of the 1880s. A printout is available in ULMA 10531 (ms to the print in SvLm VII: 6, 1890, No. 9) o. "Sven i Rosengård." from N. Andersson, Swedish songs. Värmland, 1930, No. 302. Grava sn, Värmland. Written by Gustaf Löfgren probably 1870-1900 (no later than 1910); the version was sung by Modem Maja Löfgren (born 1809). Single verse, music only. p. "Sven i Rosengård." ULMA 29073: 150, p. 2. Västergötland. From a woman named Marg. Kjellgren, who probably had the version from her mother from Hjo. Recorded by Nils Stålberg, probably in the 1930s. q. "Sven in Rosengård." SR B 47231: 2: 11. After Elin Lind, Norhyttan, Grangärde sn, Dalarna (1876-1958). Recorded by Matts Amberg 1955. Reproduced on gramophone disc (The medieval ballad, SR RELP 5003-5006). r1. "Sven in rosengård" From f. d. college teacher Anna Grady f. Lundberg, Katrineholm (b. 1891 in Vilhelmina sn, Lapland, d. 1983). SVA BA 52. Recorded by Jan Ling in 1961. r2. "Sven in Rosengård" SR 63 / M / 6051: 2: 8. Recorded by Matts Amberg and Märta Ramsten, 1963. s1. "Sven in rosengård" After Helmy Hansson f. Blomfeldt (1910-1993), Stora Tuna sn, Dalarna; she had heard his grandmother Johanna Kristina Romlin (born 1863 in Söderbärke sn, Dalarna) and grandfather Erik Blomfeldt (born 1871 in Floda sn, Dalarna) sing the show. SR 64 / M / 6135: 3: 3. Recorded by Matts Amberg in 1964. Two recordings. s2. "Sven in rosengård" SVA BA 84. Recorded by Bengt R. Jonsson, Jan Ling and Margareta Jersild in 1964. s3. "Sven i rosengård" SVA BA 1514. Recorded by Gunnar Temhag 1972. t. "Sven in rosengård" Joukahainen IX, pp. 263-265. After Johanna Sandnabba, Malax sn, Ostrobothnia (eg in Purmo sn, Ostrobothnia) and an anthem by a person who sang stanza 2. Recorded by Isak Smith's 1883. Also printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 A. u. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 23, p. 63. Kimito Sn, Åboland. Recorded by Karl Ekman in 1891. Melody printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 d, the text printed as variant H to FSF V: 1 No. 35 A. v. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 94, p. 36 (melody), 49-50 (text). After Beata Lena Hallberg, Söderudden, Replots sn, Österbotten (b. 1832); she has learned the version of her mother. Listed by Vilhelm Sjöberg in 1904. Printed as FSF V: 1 No. 35 a and D. w. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 532 No. 38. By Matilda Stjemberg, Söderveckoski, Borgå lf, Nyland (b. 1870); She had learned the version from her father. Listed by Alfhild Adolfsson (Forslin), 1934. x. "Sven in rosengård" SLS 532 No. 39. From Alfred Lindroos, Söderby, Pellinge, Borgå lf, Nyland (b. 1859). Listed by Alfhild Adolfsson (Forslin), 1934. y1. "Sven in rosengård." From Edith Johansson, Kimito sn, Åboland (born 1900 on Nötö, Nagu sn, Åboland, from 1937 resident in Kimito). Recorded by Matts Arnberg and U. P. Olrog, 1963. SR 63 / M / 6345: 3: 2. y2. "Sven in rosengård" SR 63 / M / 6345: 3: 2. A version of y1. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richard Mellish Date: 30 Oct 18 - 06:12 PM GUEST 29 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM was me: didn't notice "From:" had gone blank. Cookie now reset. > It's safe to assume this c. 1640 Swedish version is a "poetic" recreation of the standard ballad which dates the original ballad in Scandinavia back to the early 1600s. I don't think I'd call any theory about the history of this ballad several hundred years ago "safe", but I'll give you plausible. It's very close to the later versions in some respects and a wild outlier in others. The blood, the initially evasive answers and the explicit admission of fratricide are central elements of the plot in most versions from both Britain and Scandinavia. It does seem more likely that they were present in the earliest (no longer extant) version and got expunged in the odd "poetic recreation", rather than that they were originally absent and got added in at some later time. If Taylor was wrong, and the ballad came from Scandinavia to Britain, it's plausible that the first evasion, the blood being Sven's own from his being injured by a horse, got changed to the blood being that of the horse; and then duplication added the hawk and the hound. Then at some point someone was dissatisfied by the absence of a clear motive and so put one in, though it remains a pretty obscure one. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 29 Oct 18 - 05:10 PM Hi, I've always considered Rosengård to have been thought of as a place- as in "Sven of the town of Roosengård." So here it could be transcribed: "Son of Roosengård." Originally this may not have been so. Anyone? The opening stanza of this archaic Swedish ballad establishes the dialogue between the "son in the rose garden" and "Käre Moder wår (vår)" which is literally "dear mother ours." The "ours" refers to the other children and in stanza 8 -- there is a brother. The last line of the opening stanza "- i wänten oss aldrig" translates literally to: "Expect us never." The "us" apparently referring to the dead brother and the "son in the rose garden." These "plural" references (mother ours/ expect us) make more sense to be singular (mother mine/ expect me) but including the dead brother adds a morbid touch. The way the poem approaches the death in a circular pattern adds suspense to the curious dialogue. The mother suggests the father will forgive him and take him back but the son says he thinks otherwise. The son will leave where the father cannot find him. The "penance" stanzas begin with stanza 26 and continue to the end (stanza 33). What is made clear by the ending is that: the son (and his brother who is murdered) will not return. No reason is given for the murder of the fallen brother who is called a "scoundrel" showing that there was no love between the two. The ballad has been called "semi-comic" but rather seem to be an elaboration of what was an unknown shorter, coarser original version. The "blood" of the slain brother is not present. However the question of blood, common in British/American versions is also common in the Scandinavian variants: Why is your sword so bloody? Sven in Rosengård I've killed my brother Dear mother mine [standard transcript] It's safe to assume this c. 1640 Swedish version is a "poetic" recreation of the standard ballad which dates the original ballad in Scandinavia back to the early 1600s. Comments? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: GUEST Date: 29 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM Correction to my 27 Oct 18 - 06:35 PM The impossible events attending Sven's return are there in the early version. And I agree that his having murdered his brother is suggested, but it's not explicit, and I'm used to ballads stating what happens in simple terms rather than by allusion. BTW I take "i Roosengård" (with whatever spelling) to mean in a place with that name rather than "in the rosegarden", both because of the capital letter and because there is no "-en" definite article. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 29 Oct 18 - 02:10 PM Hi, This is cobbled together with a few changes from the other thread I started to get a transcription. The murder of the brother itself is never stated but carefully implied through the dialogue: Sohnen i Roosengård (dated c. 1640, from Swedish MS) [Son in the Rose Garden] 1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar, Sohnen i Roosengård Mycket der vthi feelar, Käre Moder wår (vår) - i wänten oss aldrig. ["All good things I tell to you, Son in the rose garden." Many of these things are flawed, Dear mother of ours [lit.: Dear mother ours] - Expect us[me] never." 2 Nåde och frijd aff herran: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: den ware migh ey fierran. Käre moder wår ["Grace and peace of the Lord Son in the rose garden: May it not be far from me. Dear mother of ours."] 3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria: Sonen i Roosengård: Nu först det icke börias Käre Moder wår ["Can I ask you something, Son in the rosegarden?" "Don’t start that now, Dear mother of ours."] 4 "Annat iagh ey tänker: Sohnen i Roosengårdh, dett werlden migh ihnskänker, Käre moder wår ["I don't plan on doing anything else (lit. I don’t think anything else), Son in the rosegarden. "Whatever the world brings me, Dear mother of ours."] 5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa: Sohnen i Rosengårdh: effter som dee migh pröfwa: Käre moder wår ["Every day you do good deeds, Son in the rosegarden." "Because they test/challenge me, Dear mother of ours."] 6 Rijkedom effter trachta: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: den iagh lijtet achtar, Kära moder wår ["Coveting riches: Son in the rosegarden." "I have but little desire of that, Dear mother of ours."] 7 Redeligen wandra: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: hoos edher och bland andra: Kära moder vår ["To wander (ie. to conduct myself) decently Son in the rose garden." "With you and among others, Dear mother of ours."] 8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher: Sohnen i Roosengårdh han war migh aldrigh godher Kära Moder wår ["Nothing is heard of your brother, Son in the rose garden." "He was never good to me, Dear mother of ours."] 9 Ey mon han dödher wara, Sohnen i Roosengård: Jo, så plä skalkar fahra Kära moder wår ["Might he be dead? Son in the rose garden." "Indeed, that is often the fate of scoundrels, Dear mother of ours."] 10 Aldrigh du det förgäter, Sohnen i Roosengårdh: Jagh slipper fulle släter: Käre Moder wår ["You will never forget it (his murder), Son in the rosegarden." "I will avoid it completely, Dear mother of ours."] 11 Ney du skall det betaala: Sohnen i Roosengård: Jagh will der medh förhaala Kära Moder wår ["No, you must pay for this (murder): Son in the rosegarden." "I shall delay it, Dear mother of ours."] 12 Sannerligh det ey hielper: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: fögha det migh stielper. Käre Moder wår, ["Truly it will not help: Son in the rosegarden." It will hardly hinder me, Dear mother of ours."] 13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa: Sohnen i Roosengård. här i hielper det fögha. Käre Moder wår, ]"You will not cause me sorrow; Son in the rosegarden." "That can hardly be helped. Dear mother of ours."] 14 Rundeligh kan du bööta: Sohnen i Roosengård. Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta Kära moder wår ["You will pay in full, Son in the rosegarden." "I can’t stand that they (you?) threaten me, Dear mother of ours."] 15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara: Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra. Kära moder wår ["You should be near me, Son in the rosegarden." I will not be not in danger, Dear mother of ours."] 16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt, Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt. Kära Moder wår [I wanted it to be otherwise for you, Son in the rosegarden." I fear it is now too late, Dear mother of ours."] 17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta: Sohnen i Rosengård Det är ey till det bästa: Kära moder wåhr ["I had thought I would comfort you, Son in the rosegarden. That would not be for the best, Dear mother of ours."] 19 Så will du hedan reesa: Sohnen i Roosengård Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa Käre moder wåhr ["So you want to travel away from here, Son in the rosegarden?" Yes, to wherever I happen to die, Dear mother of ours."] 21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste: Sohnen i Roosengård. Ey det på första Qwisten. Ka ra Moder wår ["So tell me then where your nest will be (lit. so tell me then your nest), Son in the rosegarden?" "Not on the first branch, Dear mother of ours." 22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader: Sohnen i Roosengård på den är iagh ey gladher: Kära moder wår ["Then what will your father think, Son in the rosegarden?" "I am not happy about that, Dear mother of ours." 23 Han will digh ighen tagha, Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh skall wäl annars lagha, Kära Moder wår ["He will take you back, Son in the rosegarden." "I suppose it will be otherwise (I will have it otherwise), Dear mother of ours." 24 Din fader digh wäll finner, Sohnen i roosengård. Nappast han migh hinner Kära Moder wår ["I suppose your father will find you, Son in the rosegarden." "He will hardly find (reach) me, Dear mother of ours."] 25 Ähn Konungen i rijket: Sohnen i Roosengård. han finner wäl sihn lijke: Käre Modher wåhr. ["Even the king in his realm, Son in the rosegarden." I suppose he will find his corpse, Dear mother of ours. 26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända sohnen i Roosengård Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända Kära moder wår ["Where do you think you will go, Son in the rosegarden?" "To where the world has an end, Dear mother of ours."] 27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda sohnen i Roosengård Medh ahrbethe och möda, Käre moder wår, [How will you earn a living? (lit.: how will you feed yourself) Son in the rosegarden?" By work and weariness, Dear mother of ours."] 28 När kommer du åter Sohnen i Roosengård När Elden blifaer wåter. Kära moder wår ["When will you come back? Son in the rosegarden?" When the fire turns wet, Dear mother of ours."] 29 När will du ighen komma. Sohnen i Roosengård När steenen står i blomma. Kära moder wår ["When will you come back? Son in the rosegarden." When the stone is in bloom. Dear mother of ours."] 30 När will du blijfwa hemma Sohnen i Roosengård När stenen böriar simma. Kära moder wår ["When will you be home? Son in the rosegarden." "When the stone starts to swim, Dear mother of ours."] 31 När skall iag till digh hinna. Sohnen i Roosengård När watnet böriar brinna Käre moder wår ["When shall I reach you, Son in the rosegarden?" "When water starts burning, Dear mother of ours."] 32 När seer iagh digh min bästa Sohnen i Roosengård När som det dagas wästan Käre moder wår [When will I see you again, my dear? Son in the rose garden." When day breaks in the west, Dear mother of ours."] 33 Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga Sohnen i Roosengård der före i nu råda. Kära moder wåhr - i wänten oss aldrig. ["Shall I ask you any more questions? Son in the rose garden." That is for you to decide, Dear mother of ours - Expect us (me) never."] * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Lighter Date: 28 Oct 18 - 12:22 PM To state the obvious, Brune's melody is most likely the result of some reader's attempt to turn the impressive poem "back" into a song. That reader may have been Brune himself, or his source. When I was about fourteen years old, I did the same the thing, though I never sang my creation for anybody else. Fortunately I can no longer remember the tune. I believe that the incest interpretation of the "classic" version arose among academics - roughly between 1920 and 1940 - because interpreting the song that way seemed to provide support from "the folk" (presumably from at least as far back as the Middle Ages, according to the academic assumptions of the time) ) for Freud's newly popular theory of the "Oedipus complex." The interpretation is not impossible, though hardly self-evident. Incest or not, the mother has presumably encouraged the son indirectly (and perhaps repeatedly) to kill his father for being some kind of villain. But she didn't expect him to do it - certainly not now. Her questions might equally be the result of concern and curiosity - or of a perverse hope. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 28 Oct 18 - 06:46 AM Hi, TY Steve, Brune just reworked Child B slightly an obvious borrowing- not sure where he got his melody. The references you mentioned to the 1640 Swedish version are references where the Swedish version is mention but probably are not transcriptions. TY Richard, I started putting Taylor's book on my site, but haven't finished. The "Where have you been?" and Mother/son dialogue are similarly found in Child 12. TY Kevin, Phillips Barry in 1933 Bulliten reviewed Taylor's 1931 book and suggested that the breaking of the bush was a kenning: "Child A, C, and the American texts generally make the motive the breaking of a little bush: a kenning which Cecil Sharp said was interpreted by a singer to refer to a very young girl." This isn't about the murder of the sister but it's about incest being a motive. This motive was further developed in Coffin's The Murder Motive in "Edward" Western Folklore, Vol. 8, No. 4 (Oct., 1949), pp. 314-319. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Kevin Werner Date: 28 Oct 18 - 05:27 AM Where did the assumption that the killing was about a sister originate? Was this assumption based on Lizie Wan (Child 51) versions that had Child 13 verses attached to the end? The "Little Sister Mary" text sung by Nora Hicks appears to be the exception, as far as I know none of Cecil Sharp's (or any other of those I've seen) texts mention a sister. Nimrod Workman's Child 13 has the son admit to killing his "own true love" instead of his brother, but that could just be faulty memory or a deliberate change. It's just my opinion, but interpreting a sister into the "cutting of a bush/tree" seems to be a bit of a stretch. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richard Mellish Date: 27 Oct 18 - 06:35 PM I've started re-reading Taylor. The general thrust of his argument is to look at which features are present or absent in the various versions and surmise whether each feature is more likely to have been added at some point, implying that the versions that have that feature are newer, or to have been lost, implying that the versions that have it are older. One that he argues is old is the bottomless boat, which he says was a recognised punishment for serious crimes at one time. When the existence of that punishment had been forgotten, it is a plausible shift first to sailing away in a normal boat and then to exile by unspecified transport. He surmises that the "where have you been?" opening in most of the Scandinavian versions probably crept in from a different ballad. The 1650-ish version that was not available to him seems very different from all the others, British or Scandinavian. Its much greater length is unsurprising, many other ballads having been condensed in later years, but it includes little about the brother and (unless I've missed it) nothing at all about his having been murdered, about blood, about the impossible events attending Sven's return, or about what is being left to the wife and children. All it has in common with the later versions are the name Sven i Rosengård, the structure, and the intention to run away. Might it represent one source, with the fratricide and the impossible events having been grafted in from separate sources? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Oct 18 - 03:27 PM I fully agree with you about being very careful with putting too much weight on British versions post 1950. Brune's version should be immediately discounted for instance. Allegories can only be purely conjectural in this case. At its simplest level he could be just saying they argued over something else trivial, or it could be the dead brother killed another young person who was close to David/the son. There is no reason why it should have to be a sister or even a relative. The piece is more than likely a translation of something which in itself was fragmentary and it's so old that any real motive could easily become altered or misread/misheard over time. I have Larry Syndegaard's 'English Translations of the Scandinavian Medieval Ballads' which is basically a series of tables listing the translations and where they can be found. Swedish entries for National no 153 (TSB no. D320) there are 3. I'm not quite sure how it works but the references are to Howitt (1852) Child's English and Scottish Ballads, M. Walker in Marzo (1928) and Taube (1954). these sources are in the Biblio. The publisher is The Nordic Institute of Folklore, Turku, 1995. Looking at Motherwell and Laing there is a strong clue in the second lines of the stanza. 'That would never (hae) been a tree' and 'A penny would ha bought the tree'. Surely this is simply stating that their argument was over something extremely trivial. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 27 Oct 18 - 12:37 PM Hi Steve, I'm looking through the items you emailed me now. What allegories are reasonable? Could the little bush be a young girl, a sister? Perhaps "prickly bush" as a "love entanglement"? Barry's attribution of the young girl/sister to Cecil Sharp has never been documented in Sharp's papers. One of the issues with Atkinson and some other analyses are that many of the later texts are of questionable authenticity. I know-- without checking-- the US versions from Woofter (Combs Collection 1924), Niles, Gainer (West Virginia 1975) and Smith (Virginia c. 1964) are fraudulent recreations and that considering them in an analysis distorts the findings. Suspect are most of the British versions from the 1950s since it's quite possible that singers who wanted to sing Child 13-- arranged the ballad for their repertoire (from print) and that these arrangements entered tradition. Traditional singers that wanted to add Child 13 could not easily say their version was from print but would need to have a traditional source. This has happened time and again, so it makes it very difficult to establish authenticity. The addition of "killing of birds" as a motive in recent British versions could, for example, have stemmed from a single arrangement. I'm not suggesting that all the British versions from c. 1950 should be discounted but rather that they should all be considered suspicious. Conclusions need to be drawn from versions which are not suspicious. I consider the English version from the late 1800s (see it posted above) to be traditional and Motherwell's version. Percy's version proves that the ballad was traditional c.1750 but since the text has been changed- it's impossible to say what that version was. Many of the US versions from Appalachia, however, are legitimate (Sharp EFSSA) and so are the Scandinavian versions. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM I'll be sending you a version in one of John's books soon, Richie. Whilst I think the incest motive is a red herring, I do think it quite likely the cutting down of a sapling could well be allegorical. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: GUEST,Wm Date: 26 Oct 18 - 01:34 PM There's a Mudcat thread about a John Brune active in the mid-nineteenth century here: https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=103839. I imagine it's the same guy, and I also imagine it's not a version learned "from tradition." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 26 Oct 18 - 12:23 PM Hi, TY for adding a link to that version. There are several recent Scottish versions (1950s) which are of questionable authenticity. I say questionable because the ballad was not found by Greig-Duncan in the early 1900s not Carpenter in the 1930s and it possibly could have been resurrected (Child A) then attributed to tradition. Jeannie Robertson's version c. 1952 was around/after Lomax/Ritchie so I would assume some of the Scottish travellers knew the Child ballads or print version. Jeannie attributed her version to her mother about 1908 and it could be ac rare authentic version that was came form earlier Scottish sources. Whether the other Scottish sources of the 1950s came solely from this version is unknown. The plot of Percy's version with the Oedipus complex (son killing father) is likely a recreation-- but for what reason? The standard brother kills brother murder as found in Scandinavia, Britain and later the US. The Scandinavian version which date back to c.1640 in general have no murder motive-- two of the versions give this motive- the brother kills his brother for having an affair with his wife. The motive in the British/US versions is that the murder happened in a fight over a bush the brother cut down "that would not make tree." Though hardly a motive for murder- real murders often happen over small, minor incidents. The evidence by Barry and later Coffin the bush represents a younger sister and the ballad is about incest is speculative. Child 13's ties to Lizie Wan, a ballad of incest, and the Two Brothers alsdo need to be examined. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Kevin Werner Date: 24 Oct 18 - 03:17 PM One John Brune sang the infamous "Edward" text for the School of Scottish Studies: Edward - Sung by John Brune It was recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1958. There's no information on the singer available. I wonder what the story behind this is. It's a bit of a curiousity. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 19 Oct 18 - 11:15 PM Hi, This is Grundtvig C (18 stanzas) and dates back to the 1700s from an informant born in 1733. C: KB Vs 2:1, s. 429—430. Efter pigan Anna Persdotter, trotjänarinna i L. F. Rääfs hem (f. 1733 i Målilla sn, Småland, kom vid unga år till Östergötland, d. 1819 på Millingstorp, Kisa sn; Jonsson I, s. 326-327). Upptecknad av L. F. Rääf 1811. Tryckt som SF 87 A. 1 Hvar har du va’t så länge Sven i Rosengård Jo jag har va’t i stallet kära moder vår - I vänta mig sent eller aldrig. 2 Hvad har du gjort i stallet Sven i Rosengård Jo jag har skådat blacken kära moder vår 3 Hur är din fot så blodig Sven i Rosengård jo blacken har mig trådat kära moder vår 4 Hur är ditt svärd så blodigt Sven i Rosengård jag har stuckit ihjäl min broder kära moder vår 5 Hvar har du gjort af brödren din Sven i Rosengård Han ligger utom stallevägg kära moder vår 6 Hvad skall du nu ha för det Sven i Rosengård jo jag skall rymma af landet kära moder vår 7 Hvad skall du göra af hustrun din Sven i Rosengård den sätter jag på söije-skrin kära moder vår 8 Hvad skall du göra af barnen dina Sven i Rosengård de få lita till vänner och fränder kära moder vår 9 Hvad skall du göra af kreaturen Sven i Rosengård dem släpper jag på sjelfföda kära moder vår 10 Hvad skall du göra af åker och äng Sven i Rosengård dem lägger jag för fäfot kära moder vår 11 När skall jag vänta dig igen Sven i Rosengård när korpen han vitnar kära moder vår 12 När hvitnar korpen Sven i Rosengård när svanen han svartnar kära moder vår 13 När svartnar svanen Sven i Rosengård när stenen han flyter kära moder vår 14 När flyter stenen Sven i Rosengård när fjädern han sjunker kära moder vår 15 När sjunker fjädern Sven i Rosengård när alla enbär mogna kära moder vår 16 När mogna alla enebär Sven i Rosengård när alla pigor bli gifta kära moder vår 17 När bli alla pigor gifta Sven i Rosengård när kyrkan blifver enka kära moder vår 18 När blir kyrkan enka Sven i Rosengård jo innan verldsens ända kära moder vår - I vänta mig sent eller aldrig Anmärkning Omkvädet och de återkommande tilltalsfrasema utskrivna i str. 1, markerade i str. 18. Osäkert i vilken utsträckning interpunktionen härstammar från Arwidsson, här därför ej återgiven. Omkvädet: vänta ändrat från vänten 5:3 stallevägg ms ev. stallsvägg 6:3 jo tillskrivet i margen före jag 8:3 få står över struket ska 16:1 över raden står När bli alla enbär mogna överstruket 17:3 blifver troligen ändrat från bli ------------------------ KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 429-430. From the girl, Anna Persdotter, the servant in L. F. Rääfs home (born 1733 in Målilla sn, Småland, came young years to Östergötland, 1819 at Millingstorp, Kisa sn; Jonsson I, pp. 326-327). Recorded by L. F. Rääf 1811. Printed as SF 87 A. 1 Where have you been for so long? Sven in Rosengård Well, I've been in the stables dear mother mine - I wait late or never. 2 What have you done in the stables? Sven in Rosengård Yes, I've seen the black (horse), dear mother mine 3 How is your foot so bloody? Sven in Rosengård The black has stamped me so, dear mother mine 4 Why s your sword so bloody? Sven in Rosengård I've killed my brother dear mother mine 5 What have you done your brother's (body)? Sven in Rosengård He is located outside the stable wall dear mother mine 6 Where shall you go now? Sven in Rosengård Yes, I will escape from the country dear mother mine 7 What shall you do of your wife? Sven in Rosengård I put it on the Söije (soul) box[1] dear mother spring 8 What shall you do of your children? Sven in Rosengård Leave them with a few trusted friends and relatives dear mother mine 9 What shall you do of the animals? Sven in Rosengård I will release them on the farm, dear mother spring 10 What shall you do with your fields and meadows? Sven in Rosengård I will sell them for a fee dear mother mine 11 When will you wait to return again? Sven in Rosengård when the raven he turns white dear mother mine 12 When will the raven whiten? Sven in Rosengård when the swan he blackens dear mother mine 13 When blackens the swan? Sven in Rosengård When the stone floats dear mother mine 14 When the stone floats Sven in Rosengård when the feather sinks dear mother mine 15 When does the feather sink? Sven in Rosengård when all juniper berries ripen dear mother mine 16 When is the ripening of the junipers? Sven in Rosengård when all the girls get married dear mother mine 17 When do all girls get married? Sven in Rosengård "when the women[2] becomes widows, dear mother mine," 18 When do women becomes widows? Sven in Rosengård before the end of the world dear mother mine, - You wait for me late or never[3]. 1. usually this is a reference to "spinning thread" and may be a "thread box" or related to spinning. 2. The Swedish word is "church" (see also stanza 18). Other transcripts have "women" (see Karpeles for example) which makes sense. 3. meaning: "You expect me to come home late, but I will never come." Remarks Overweight(?) and the recurring refrain phrases printed in stanza 1, marked in stanza 18. Uncertain to what extent the comments derive from Arwidsson, here they are therefore not reproduced. Variations: wait change from the wait 5: 3 stallevägg ms ev. stable wall 6: 3 yes, written in the margin before me 8: 3 get over the dried goat 16:1 over the line stands When all the juniper berries overlap 17:3 will probably change from being |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 19 Oct 18 - 08:29 PM Hi, I started another thread to get a translation of the 33 stanza version Swedish A of c. 1640. Anyone who can help please see that thread. This Swedish version is probably from the mid-1700s as it was collected in 1810 from a woman born in 1742: B KB Vs 2:1, s. 431-432. Efter mamsell Beata Memsen, Kisa sn, Östergötland (f. 1742 i Oppeby sn, Östergötland, d. 1831 i Kisa; Jonsson I, s. 325-326). Upptecknad av L. F. Rääf 1810. Tryckt som SF 87 B. 1 Hvar har du va’t så länge Sven i Rosengård Jag har va’t i stallet kära moder vår - I vänten mig sent eller aldrig 2. Hvad har du gjort i stallet Sven i Rosengård Jag har vatnat fålar alla kära moder vår 3. Hvi är ditt svärd så blodigt Sven i Rosengård Jag slog ihjäl min broder kära moder vår 4. Hvad vill du nu då göra Sven i Rosengård jag rymmer utaf landet kära moder vår 5. Hvar vill du göra af Hustru och barn Sven i Rosengård De få gå verlden af och an kära moder vår 6. När får jag dig hemvänta Sven i Rosengård När kyrkan blir enka kära moder vår 7. När blir kyrkan enka Sven i Rosengård när där är inga bänkar kära moder vår 8. När får jag dig hemvänta Sven i Rosengård när alla fjädrar sjunka kära moder vår 9 Och när sjunker fjädern Sven i Rosengård när järnet det flyter kära moder vår 10 När får jag dig hemvänta Sven i Rosengård när korpen blir viter kära moder vår 11 när blir korpen viter Sven i Rosengård när svanen blir svarter kära moder vår 12 När får jag dig hemvänta Sven i Rosengård när alla enbär mogna kära moder vår 13 När mogna alla enebär Sven i Rosengård när alla flicker bli gifta kära moder vår 14 När får jag dig hemvänta Sven i Rosengård när tallen han löfgas kära moder vår 15 När löfgas tallen Sven i Rosengård när björken hon barras kära moder vår 16 Hvar vill du göra af åker och äng Sven i Rosengård den får bli utan hägn och stägn kära moder vår - I vänten mig sent eller aldrig. SM B 153 Anmärkning Str. 4 tillskriven i efterhand i margen med nr 3 1/2, vilket ändrats till 4 (de övriga stroferna har därför också fått nya nummer, dvs. 5 osv.). Omkvädet och de återkom mande tilltalsfrasema utskrivna i str. 1 och 15, marke rade i övriga strofer. Osäkert i vilken utsträckning interpunktionen härstammar från Arwidsson, här därför ej återgiven. - Upptecknarens anm. efter texten: Ehuru denna visa kan synas ofullständig, har likväl den som i fordna dar varit särdeles allmän blifvit af flere personer på samma sätt sjungen för M ad^ Mems. 1:3 va’t står över struket varit 3:3 före slog som ändrats från slag står har över-struket 10:3 före blir står blifver överstruket 13:1 enebär ändrat från enbär 16:3 den står över struket de B KB Vs 2: 1, pp. 431-432. After Mrs. Beata Memsen, Kisa sn, Östergötland (born 1742 in Oppeby sn, Östergötland, d. 1831 in Kisa; Jonsson I, pp. 325-326). Recorded by L. F. Rääf 1810. Printed as SF 87 B. 1 "Where have you been for so long, Sven in Rosengård?" "I've been in the stall dear mother mine, - You'll wait late or never[1]." 2. What have you done in the stables? Sven in Rosengård I have been watering all [the horses] dear mother mine 3. What is your sword so bloody? Sven in Rosengård I killed my brother dear mother mine. 4. What do you want to do now? Sven in Rosengård I can escape from the country dear mother mine 5. What do you want to do for your wife and child? Sven in Rosengård [Let them wander] through the world by and by dear mother mine 6. When will you come home? Sven in Rosengård When women becomes widows[2] dear mother spring 7. When do women become widows? Sven in Rosengård when there are no benches to sit on[3] dear mother mine. 8. When do I get home? Sven in Rosengård when all feathers sink dear mother mine 9 And when the feather sinks Sven in Rosengård when the iron (stone) is floating dear mother mine 10 When will you come home? Sven in Rosengård when the raven (crow) becomes white dear mother spring 11 When the raven becomes white Sven in Rosengård when the swan is blackened dear mother mine 12 When will you come get home? Sven in Rosengård when all juniper berries ripen dear mother mine 13 When all junipers are ripe? Sven in Rosengård When all girls get married, dear mother mine 14 When will you come home? Sven in Rosengård when all promises are kept, dear mother spring 15 When are all promises are kept? Sven in Rosengård "When the birch has bark dear mother mine," 16 When will you want to go out of fields and meadows? Sven in Rosengård When the world is without hesitation and stagnation dear mother mine - You'll wait [for me to come] late but I will come never. 1. meaning: "You'll expect me to come late, but I'll never come (home)." 2. The meaning od "kyrkan" is "church." Since "women" makes sense and it is used for that word I've used "women" here. 3. Not sure what "benches" have to do with this. I assume it means: "When there are no husbands (men) alive." SM B 153 Remark Size 4 assigned afterwards in the margin with No. 3 1/2, which changed to 4 (the other stranzas have therefore also been received new numbers, i.e. 5, etc.). The refrain given in manuscript as written in str. 1 and 15, and occurs in all other stanzas. Uncertain to what extent the reference notes comes from Arwidsson are, here for that reason, they is not reproduced. Recorders' note- after the text: Although this version may seem incomplete, yet it is the one you has been found to have been particularly common by several people-- like singing of Mrs. Memsen. 1: 3 it's over the throat being 3: 3 before hit as changed from battle stands have over-stretched 10: 3 before getting standing will be overridden 13: 1 juniper changed from juniper berries 16: 3 it is over the throat they stand |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Oct 18 - 05:57 PM Off the top of my head I think there may be some Kent versions. I'll check tomorrow. Whereas some Scandinavian ballads naturally are set in Britain I can't off hand think of a single ballad that went from Britain to Scandinavia prior to 1800. One reason for this may be that there are far more Scandinavian ballads and they were set down at a much earlier period. To the best of my knowledge Grundtvig was the first Scandinavian to publish translations of British ballads in 1840. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 19 Oct 18 - 05:55 PM Here's the 33 stanza version from the mid-1600s (Stockholm Stephens' Collection c.1640) I finally found it. The end is very similar to the standard Swedish. I'm not going to translate yet but will give a couple end stanzas: 28 When will you come back? Son in Roosengård When the fire burns wet. Dear mother mine 29 When will you come back? Son in Roosengård When the stone is in bloom. Dear mother mine. 30 When will you return home? Son in Roosengård When the stone starts to swim. Dear mother mine * * * * SMB 153: SVEN I ROSENGÅRD TSB D 320 153 A. UUB T 144 b, s. 79-80. Uppskrift från 1600-talets mitt, sannolikt från uppsvenskt område (Jonsson I, s. 190-195). 1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar, Sohnen i Roosengård Mycket der vthi feelar, Käre Moder wår (vår) - i wänten oss aldrig. 2 Nåde och frijd aff herran: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: den ware migh ey fierran. Käre moder wår 3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria: Sonen i Roosengård: Nu först det icke börias Käre Moder wår 4 Annat iagh ey tänker: Sohnen i Roosengårdh, dett werlden migh ihnskänker, Käre moder wår 5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa: Sohnen i Rosengårdh: effter som dee migh pröfwa: Käre moder wår 6 Rijkedom effter trachta: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: den iagh lijtet achtar, Kära moder wår 7 Redeligen wandra: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: hoos edher och bland andra: Kära moder vår 8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher: Sohnen i Roosengårdh han war migh aldrigh godher Kära Moder wår 9 Ey mon han dödher wara, Sohnen i Roosengård: Jo, så plä skalkar fahra Kära moder wår 10 Aldrigh du det förgäter, Sohnen i Roosengårdh: Jagh slipper fulle släter: Käre Moder wår 11 Ney du skall det betaala: Sohnen i Roosengård: Jagh will der medh förhaala Kära Moder wår 12 Sannerligh det ey hielper: Sohnen i Roosengårdh: fögha det migh stielper. Käre Moder wår 13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa: Sohnen i Roosengård. här i hielper det fögha. Käre Moder wår 14 Rundeligh kan du bööta: Sohnen i Roosengård. Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta Kära moder wår 15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara: Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra. Kära moder wår 16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt, Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt. Kära Moder wår 17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta: Sohnen i Rosengård Det är ey till det bästa: Kära moder wåhr 18 Kan ingen digh hugswala: Sohnen i Roosengård Näy icke vthan fahra: Käre Moder wåhr 19 Så will du hedan reesa: Sohnen i Roosengård Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa Käre moder wåhr 20 Rymmer du uthur Landet Sohnen i Roosengård Ja vndan skalka händer Kära moder wåhr 21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste: Sohnen i Roosengård. Ey det på första Qwisten. Ka ra Moder wår 22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader: Sohnen i Roosengård på den är iagh ey gladher: Kära moder wår 23 Han will digh ighen tagha, Sohnen i Rosengård Jagh skall wäl annars lagha, Kära Moder wår 24 Din fader digh wäll finner, Sohnen i roosengård. Nappast han migh hinner Kära Moder wår 25 Ähn Konungen i rijket: Sohnen i Roosengård. han finner wäl sihn lijke: Käre Modher wåhr. 26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända sohnen i Roosengård Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända Kära moder wår 27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda sohnen i Roosengård Medh ahrbethe och möda, Käre moder wår 28 När kommer du åter Sohnen i Roosengård När Elden blifaer wåter. Kära moder wår 29 När will du ighen komma. Sohnen i Roosengård När steenen står i blomma. Kära moder wår 30 När will du blijfwa hemma Sohnen i Roosengård När stenen böriar simma. Kära moder wår 31 När skall iag till digh hinna. Sohnen i Roosengård När watnet böriar brinna Käre moder wår 32 När seer iagh digh min bästa Sohnen i Roosengård När som det dagas wästan Käre moder wår 33 Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga Sohnen i Roosengård der före i nu råda. Kära moder wåhr - i wänten oss aldrig. * * * * 30:1 blijfna hemma orden skrivna i omvänd ordningsföljd, vilken korrigerats Anmärkning Ms saknar strofnr. Omkvädet utskrivet i str. 1 och 33, markerat i str. 1-16, 18, 20-22, 24. 28:2 Elden ordets början svårtydd, möjligen ändrat från steenen |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 19 Oct 18 - 03:21 PM Hi, The following English version with notes was given in "Two Songs and a Dance" in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Vol. 3, No. 3 (Dec., 1938), pp. 203-210. I've dated it 1891. It was part of a "soulin play (mummer's play)" and importantly features an introductory stanza similar to the Scandinavian versions. Some of Gilcrhist's notes are: The Cheshire Soul-caking play is the mumming play of St. George-more usually performed in other localities at Easter or Christmas. But the Tarvin version is remarkable for its introduction of two songs which have no connection with the play, one being "Jim the carter lad" and the other a traditional version of "Edward"! The latter is of extraordinary interest as the sole traditional version ever-as far as I am aware-recovered in England, Percy's and Motherwell's copies being in Scots dialect. No name is given to the tragic " my son," who is also nameless in the American versions, Appalachian and Virginian, which I have seen; and I suspect that Percy himself was responsible for an alteration of the homely "Son Davy, Son Davy" of Motherwell's version to " Edward, Edward." If so, it was an ill-considered improvement, as the name "Edward" was abhorrent to Scottish ears, the "proud usurper" even in Burns's day being associated with " chains and slaverie," and his name about the last to be bestowed upon an infant son. As the "Edward" ballad has hitherto been supposed to have perished in England (Motherwell's copy of 1827 being the latest extant) and as this traditional copy (given without any title) has turned up in a place where nobody would look for it, it is here given as written down -for Mr. J. K. Hudson c. 1891 by one of the actors, a lad of sixteen. 1. "And it's where hast thou been all this night long, my son? Come tell it unto me." "I have been lying on yonder bull-rushes Which lies beneath yond tree." 2. "And it's what are the spots on this thy coat, my son? Come tell it unto me." "They are the spots of my poor brother's blood Which lies beneath yonder tree." 3. "And it's what didst thou kill thy poor brother for, my son? Come tell it unto me." "Because he killed two pretty little birds Which flew from tree to tree." 4. And it's what will thy father say, when he comes, my son? Come tell it unto me." "I will dress me up in sailor's clothes, And my face he will never see." 5. "And it's what will thou do with thy pretty little wife, my son? Come tell it unto me." "I will dress her up in ladies' clothes, And she will sail along with me." 6. "And it's what will thou do with thy children three, my son? Come tell it unto me." "I will leave them to my poor grandfather to rear, And comfort (to) him (to be)." 7. "And it's when shall we see thy face again, my son? Come tell it unto me." "When the sun and moon shines both at once.- And that shall never be." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:40 PM Hi, After looking briefly at Child B, Percy's famous recreation, it's clear that the son's name was changed, the murder of the brother was changed to the murder of the father and a new ending was added. The ending is proven to be false by the earlier dialogue between mother and son-- if the mother was an accomplice all along-- the dialogue would have been different since she would have known what the son was doing. The usual ending has been used in Twa Brothers and Lizie Wan which means the ballad may be older than c.1750 in Britain. Still the Scandinavian versions would be over 100 years older. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:23 PM Hi, There a Swedish version of 33 stanzas, MS in Stephens' collection Stockholm circa 1640, that is Grundvig's A version. This half-comic version, that Taylor could not find, may be important. No one to my knowledge has seen this. If anyone can find (George) Stephens' collection online it would help. Grundtvig does not give the text just a brief description. Taylor reasons that the British versions are older because of their "courtly" details such as the "hawk" and "hound" etc. while the Scandinavian versions feature a farmer (Sven) who washes horses in a stable. Clearly the Swedish versions date back before the 1640 parody and are chronologically older. The Scandinavian versions often have introductory stanzas while the British/US versions usually don't. Because of the similarity of the versions, it's likely they cam from the same ur-ballad. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richard Mellish Date: 18 Oct 18 - 04:11 PM Steve, I'll need to re-read Taylor myself before I can say much more about his arguments. The personnel (dramatis personae?) argument is the only one I remember. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Oct 18 - 01:36 PM Hi Richard, I have Archer Taylor and read it some years back. I haven't time to reread it now but it would be helpful perhaps to all here if you could summarise his theory that the movement was from Britain to Scandinavia. If it is because of a change of status in the personnel that is a very flimsy theory. I interpret Bronson's comment as non-commital. He says 'Archer Taylor has argued convincingly', but he doesn't actually say he was convinced! I think Richie will be in a better position to offer an opinion when he has examined all of the extant versions. Personally, and I'm aware of my reputation, I think the British and therefore American versions of Child 13 and other related ballads have no great age to them. However, I'd love to be proved wrong. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 18 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM Hi, TY for the contributions. Neither Greig nor Carpenter found any Scottish versions in the early 1900s. Here's another transcription of Sven i Rosengård. Arwidsson prints this from southern Sweden without an informant. Taylor's version GS D. Svenska Fornsanger, II, p. 83-85 by ?Adolf Iwar Arwidsson - 1837 A. Sven i Rosengård, from Smäland, 1. "Hvar har du va't så länge?" — Sven i Rosengård! "Jo, jag har va't i stallet." Kära moder vår; J vänta mig sent eller aldrig! 2. "Hvad har du gjort i stallet?" — Sven i Rosengård! "Jo, jag har skådat blacken." — Kära moder vår; J vänta mig sent eller aldrig! 3. "Hur är din fot så blodig?" — Sven i Rosengård! "Jo, blacken har mig trådat." — Kära moder vår; J vänta mig sent eller aldrig! 4. "Hur är ditt svärd så blodigt?" — "Jag har stuckit ihjäl min broder!" — 5. "Hvar har du gjort af brodren din?" — "Han ligger utom stallsvägg!" — 6. "Hvad skall du nu ha för det?" — "Jo, jag skall rymma af landet." — 7. "Hvad skall du göra af hustrun din?" — "Den sätter jag på sörje-skrin." — 8. "Hvad skall du göra af barnen din?" — "De få lita vänner och fränder till." — 9. "Hvad skall du göra af kreaturen?" — "Dem släpper jag på sjelfföda." — 10. "Hvad skall du göra af åker och äng?" "Dem lägger jag för fäfot." — 11. "När skall jag vänta dig igen?- "När korpen han hvitar." 12. "När hvitar korpen?" När svanen han svartnar." 13. "När svartnar svanen?" "När stenen han flyter." 14. "När flyter svanen?" När fjädern han sjunker." 15 "När sjunker fjädern?" När alla enebär mogna." 16. "När mogna alla enebär?" "När alla pigor bli gifta." 17. "När bli alla pigor gifta? "När kyrkan blifver enka." 18. När blir kyrkan enka? Sven i Rosengård! "Jo, innan verldens ända." Kära moder vår; J vänta mig sent eller aldrig! * * * * A. "Sven of Rosengård" from Småland, 1837 1. "Where have you been for so long?" - Sven of Rosengård! "Well, I've been in the stables. My mother dear, I will come late or never!" 2. "What have you done in the stall?" - Sven of Rosengård! "Well, I've seen the black [horse]." - My mother dear, I will come late or never! 3. "How is your foot so bloody?" - Sven of Rosengård! "Yes, the black has stamped me." - My mother dear, I will come late or never! 4. "How is your sword so bloody?" - "I've killed my brother!" - 5. "Where have you done your brother?" - "He's out on the wall!" - 6. "What are you going to do?" - "Yes, I'll flee from the country." - 7. "What will you do from your wife?" - "I put her on the sore-box." - 8. "What are you doing with your children?" - "Leave them with a few friends and relatives." - 9. "What will you do with your animals?" - "I will release them on the land." - 10. "What will you do with your fields and meadows?" "I put them up for farming." - 11. "When will you return again?" "When the raven is white." 12. "When is the raven white?" When the swan turns black. " 13. "When does the swan blacken?" "When the stone floats." 14. "When does the stone [swan] float?" When the feather sinks. " 15 "When does the feather sink?" When all the juniper berries ripen. " 16. "When do all juniper berries ripen?" "When all the girls get married." 17. "When do all girls get married? "When they become widows[1]." 18. When do they become widows? Sven of Rosengård! "Well, before the end of the world. My mother dear I will come late or never[2]!" 1. "kyrkan" translates literally to "church" but the word "women" is used in other transcriptions-- "When all women are widows" meaning "When all men are dead." 2. Meaning "You expect me (to be) late, but I will never come (home)!" Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richard Mellish Date: 18 Oct 18 - 09:00 AM Considering how familiar we all are nowadays with Jeannie Robertson's version it is somewhat surprising that Carpenter didn't find any version this side of the Pond. If we're considering Scandinavian versions I must (once again: I think I've mentioned it in a previous thread) point out Bronson's comment; "Archer Taylor has argued convincingly that the ballad passed from Britain to Scandinavia". We may never know for certain but I share Bronson's assessment of the argument. Taylor's book is available as a facsimile reprint from Kessinger Publishing and I got myself a copy and one for the VWML. There are several components to Taylor's argument for the direction of transmission including the change of atmosphere from nobility with their hounds and hawks in the British versions to a farmer grooming his horse or tending to his foals in Scandinavia. It amuses me that Taylor quoted all the Danish, Norwegian, Swedish and Swedish-Finnish versions without translation, apparently presuming that ballad scholars could sufficiently understand those languages, but did provide translations of the Finnish versions. Some years ago I was at a small song workshop in Sweden and the song teacher, Eva Rune, sang a version of Sven i Rosengård, without any prior explanation. My Swedish is minimal, but I got a few words here and there, sufficient to guess what the ballad was about, and I responded with Jeannie's version. I don't think Eva would object to my putting my recording on line if people would like to hear it. That particular version has slightly different phraseology in two successive verses which translates exactly into English. In one verse "Hur är din fot så blodig?"; "Why is thy foot so bloody?", and in the next "Varför är ditt svärd så blodigt?"; "Wherefore is thy sword so bloodied?". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Kevin Werner Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:31 AM There is little variation between versions, but Jeannie Robertson wasn't the only recorded source for "My Son David". Margaret Stewart recalled her own version of the song after hearing Jeannie singing it: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/fullrecord/62076/1 This was recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1954. Another text was recorded by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger from Maria Robertson in 1963. It was printed in "Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland": 1 What's the blood that's on your sword? Hey son David, Ho son David, What's the blood mat's on your sword? Come promise, tell me true. 2 That's the blood of my grey mare, Yes lady Mother, ay, lady Mother, That's the blood of my grey mare, Because it wadna rule by me. 3 That blood is far too clear, Hey son David, Ho son David, That blood is far too clear, Come promise, tell me true. 4 That's the blood of my hunting hack, Yes lady Mother, ay, lady Mother, That's the blood of my hunting hack, Because it wadna rule by me. 5 That blood is far too clear, Hey son David, Ho son David, That blood is far too clear, Come promise, tell me true. 6 That's the blood of my brother John, Yes lady Mother, ay, lady Mother, That's the blood of my brother John, When he drew his sword to me. 7 What way did youse fall out? Hey son David, Ho son David, What way did youse fall out? Come promise, tell me true. 8 It was the cuttin' o' a silly wand, A silly wand, 'Twas the cuttin' o' a silly wand When he drew his sword to me. 9 I'm gaun awa' in a bottomless boat, In a bottomless boat, I'm gaun awa' in a bottomless boat, And a good scholar I'll come hame. Here's a bit of info on the singer from the book: MARIA ROBERTSON Maria Robertson was born in 1930 in Bridge of Don, Aberdeen. Her father, David Robertson, a brother of Jeannie Robertson (the well-known Aberdeen ballad-singer) is known among Travellers as 'The Iron Man', a title bestowed upon him during the time he worked the boxing booths at fairs and markets. We met Maria at the home of Wilhelmina MacAllister and only recorded her for an hour, during which she sang us five traditional songs and 'yen I made up the day'. She has contributed the following items to this book: 5 Edward 17 The Braes o' Yarrow 110 The Ale-Wife and Her Barrel 111 Hooly and Fairly (Collected 1963) The Musical Traditions CD reissue of the book also includes the audio recordings for all songs. Maria Robertson sang it much slower than Maggie Stewart but both sang "Hey Son David" instead of "My Son David" and pronounced it the same way. There's also the verse about the bottomless boat which was missing in Jeannie's early recordings of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:16 PM Wow, Richie! I'm really impressed at your Scandinavian research and your ability to translate them, however loosely. Much respect. I have all the easily accessible translations such as Jamieson, Borrow, Dal, Prior, Grey etc. The sister version of Sven I Rosengard has implications for Lucy Wan and could possibly have suggested it. I have several translations of Sven in the books above if they are of any use. You obviously have Archer Taylor. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 17 Oct 18 - 02:49 PM Hi, I apologize for the quick and presumably inaccurate transcriptions of some Finnish, Danish and Swedish variants which, overlooking mistakes, are simply a way of making examples of the Scandinavian oeuvre accessible. Corrections needed and welcomed! As Steve has presumed, there is evidence that Child 13 has risen from early Scandinavian versions to have been spread to Britain and from there-- North America. Besides the Swedish parody of 1794 is a Swedish "half comic text of 33 verses," in a handwriting as old as the 1640s (see Grundtvig's headnotes) from Stockholm, a transcript in Stephens' collection. The ballad can therefore reasonably be dated in Sweden to the early 1600s. Percy's recreation of a Scottish ballad, Child B, can't be dated much earlier that c.1750 while Child A can't be dated earlier than the late 1700s (from Motherwell taken from the recitation of an old woman in Kilbarchan c. 1820s). Herd's 1776 version, a compilation of Child 13 with Lizie Wan (Child 51), was printed about the time of Percy's recreation. The US versions, two of which I'd date to the late 1700s (Hicks family version and the Moncure version), can't be dated earlier than the mid-1700s without new evidence. * * * * The motive for murder has been explored by Archer Taylor, Phillips Barry and Tristan Coffin, the latter two basing the murder of the younger brother on jealously/incest arising from the brothers relationship with their sister who through a kenning is represented by the symbolism of the cutting of a "little bush that would not make a tree." Jeannie Roberston, whose version mysteriously appeared in the 1950s which she claims was learned from her mother about 1916, says that the younger brother was jealous of older bother David who was killed because "he was heir to everything." The dispute between the brothers about the little bush/willow that was cut down need not be a kenning but was a fight over an unimportant incident which escalated into murder. The vast amount of texts in the UK and US verify this motive. The deeper reason may never be known but Robertson's hypothesis makes sense-- that there was already jealousy and a struggle for dominance between the two brothers and the cutting of the holly bush triggered a deadly fight. The Scandinavian versions in general show no interest in the motive. Only two versions give an explanation-- it was the seduction of the older brother's wife which was the motive for the murder of the younger brother. Fratricide seems to be the overwhelming consensus for the murder -- the older brother kills the younger brother. Percy's recreation with patricide with the mother an accomplice is poetic but hardly traditional. Opinions? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 17 Oct 18 - 12:19 PM Hi, In Aminson's 1883 book "Bidrag till Södermanlands äldre kulturhistoria," is a version where the sister is killed by the brother: Tillägg tili folkvisan n:r 8 med melodi, sidan 32 i första haftet och samma folkvisa i tredje häftet, sid. 37. Följande variant är upptecknad af fiskaren J. P. Johansson i Südermanlands skärgard och benaget meddelad af pastor F. Li. Grundtvig. Sven i Rosengärd. 1. Ilvar har du varit sä länge, Du Sven i Rosengärd? Jag har varit ät stallet, Kära moder vär! I vänten miff sent eller aldrig! 2. Hvad har du gjort ät stallet, Du Sven i Rosengärd? Jag har vattnat hästarna, Kära moder vär! I vänten miff sent eller aldrig! 3. Hvad har du fätt pä rocken, Du Sven i Kosengärd? Hüsten min har trampat mig, Kära moder vär! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 4. I bad bar du t'iitt pä skjortan, Du Sven í Rosengärd? Jag bar slagtat min syster, Kära moder vár! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 5. Hvad skall du ha for detta, Du Sven i Rosengärd? Jag skall rymma ur riket, Kära moder vár! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 6. När kommer du tillbaka, Du Sven i Rosengärd? När som tallen bär löfven, Kära moder vär! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 7. När bär dä tallen löfven. Du Sven i Rosengârd? Jo, när som aleu barrar, Kära moder vár! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 8. Och när dá barrar aleu, Du Sven i Rosengärd? Jo, när som grasten flyter, Kära moder vár! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 9. Och när dä flyter gvästen, Du Sven i Rosengärd? Jo, när som fjädern sjunker, Kära moder vär! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 10 Och när dä sjunker fjädern, Du Sven i Rosengärd? Jo, när som avanen avartnar, Kära moder vär! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! 11. Och när dä avartnar avanen, Du Sven i Rosengârd? Jo, när som korpen hvitnar, Kära moder vár! I vänten mig sent eller aldrig! Tillagg till Folkvisan n:r 15 med melodi i andra haftet, ßidan 17. Följande variant är upptecknad af fiskaren J. P. Johansson i Södermanlande skärgärd och benaget nieddelad af pastor F. L. Grundtvig. ---------------- Addendum to the folk show number 8 with melody, page 32 in the first edition and the same public newspaper in the third booklet, p. 37. The following variant is recorded by the fisherman J. P. Johansson in Südermanlands archipelago and the version was announced by Pastor F. L. Grundtvig. Sven in Rosengärd. 1. Where have you been for a long time, You Sven in Rosengärd? I have been staying in the stable, Dear mother, please! You wait for me late or never! 2. What have you done living in the stable, You Sven in Rosengärd? I have watered the horses, Dear mother, please! You wait for me late or never! 3. Why is there dirt stuck to you, You Sven in Rosengärd? My horse has trampled me, Dear mother, please! You wait for me late or never! 4. Why is ther blood on your shirt, You Sven in Rosengärd? I slaughtered my sister, Dear Mother, Ours! You wait for me late or never! 5. What will you do for this, You Sven in Rosengärd? I will leave from this area, Dear Mother, Ours! You wait for me late or never! 6. When will you come back, You Sven in Rosengärd? When do pine tree bears flowers, Dear mother, please! You wait for me late or never! 7. When do pine trees bear flowers You Sven in Rosengârd? Well, when daughters live alone, Dear Mother, Ours! You wait for me late or never! 8. And when do daughters live alone, You Sven in Rosengärd? Well, when the granite flies, Dear Mother, Ours! You wait for me late or never! 9. And when does granite fly, You Sven in Rosengärd? Well, when the feather is sinking, Dear mother, please! You wait for me late or never! 10 And when does the feather sink, You Sven in Rosengärd? Yes, when the swan blackens, Dear mother, please! You wait for me late or never! 11. And when does the swan blacken, You Sven in Rosengârd? Yes, when the crow is white, Dear Mother, Ours! You wait for me late or never! Addition to Folkvisan n: r 15 with melody in the other had, ßidan 17. The following variant is recorded by the fisherman J. P. Johansson in Södermanlande archipelago and the song was named by Pastor F. L. Grundtvig. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 17 Oct 18 - 10:19 AM Hi, Here are two translations of Child 13 from Archer Taylor's book collected by Swedish Literature Society in Finland, dated early 1900s. Taylor GSF G, p. 108. Svenska literatursdllskapet i Finrand (Helsingfors) MS Svensson 6 z9 "Sven i Rosenghrd." - 1 Vart hayer du varit så länge du sven i rosendegård? Jaghar varit vid sjöastand, vid sjostrand, kir moderen min. -I vdnten mig sent eller aldrig._ 2 Vad gjorde du vid sjöastrand? Jag har vattnat filan min. 3 Vi är din hand sä blodigt Grå hasten han har sparkat mig. 4 Vi är ditt svdrd si blodigt? Jag har slagit min broder ihjäl. 5 Vad skall du gora här? Jag skall nu i landsflykt ganga. 1 Where hay you have been for so long Sven of Rosendegård? I have been at the seaside, at the seashore, My dear mother. I'm coming home late or never. 2 What did you do at the seaside? I have watered my foal (colt). 3 Why is your hand bloody? Gray horse, he has kicked me. 4 Why is your sword so bloody? I have killed my brother. 5 What are you going to do? I am going to be exiled now. Taylor GSF H p. 108-109, dated c. 1815 from: Svenska iiteratursallskapet i Finland (Helsingfors) MS Rancken 274 also listed as GA 67 [: II], F version. Taken from a soldier's wife, Hedda Berg, female of Söderholm, Biskopskulla sn, Uppland (born 1764 in Järlås sn, Uppland, d. 1843 in Bishopskulla; Jonsson I, pp. 429-436). Recorded by A. A. Afzelius in the middle of the 1810s. No title. 1. Var haver du varit så länge -du sven i rosenvård? Jag har varit i stallet och skrapa Blacken, -I omma moders vird. 2. Var haver du blodat din skjortal Blacken har sparkat mig i magen. 3. Var haver du blodat din värja? Jag har ihjäl stuckit min broder. 4. Vart skall du taga vägen? Jag har tänkt att ge mig pa landet. 5. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka? Nar som granarna bliva med love. 6. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka? Nar som björkarna bliva med bare. 7. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka? Nir som korparna bliva vita. 8. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka? Nar som svanorna bliva svarta 9. Nar kommer du hem tillbaka? Nar som alla flickor bliva gifta. 10. Nar bliva dF, alla flickor gifta? Uppa den stora dagen. 11. Nar dr den stora dagen, -du sven i rosenvrd.- Uppa den stora domedagen I omma moders vard.- Swedish Literature Society in Finland (Helsinki) MS Rancken 274. No title. 1. Where have you been for so long? Sven of Rosenvård I've been to the stables and brushed the black [horse], My loving mother. 2. How have you blooded your shirt The black [horse] has kicked me in my stomach. 3. Where did you get that blood? From killing my brother. 4. Which road are you going to take? I'm going to flee from the country. 5. When will you return home? When the spruce grows with love. 6. When will you return home? Whenever the birches grow alone. 7. When will you return home? When the crows become white. 8. When will you return home? When the swans turn black 9. When will you return home? When all girls get married. 10 When all girls get married? On the judgement day. 11. When on the judgement day, Sven of Rosenvard? When you get up on judgement day My loving mother. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 17 Oct 18 - 01:45 AM Hi, This Finnish version (no date given) Taylor GSF J p.109-110, probably from the early 1900s, is taken from "Svenska literatursillskapet i Finland (Helsingfors)," MS: R3 B VIII i55. A quick translation has been provided below-- corrections welcome. "Sven i Rosengard." 1 Var har du varit sa lange- Du Sven i Rosengard- Jag har varit i stallet- kara moder var- I vanten mig sent eller aldrig. 2 Yad haver du gjort i stallet? Jag haver stuckit min broder ihal (ihjal)' 3 Vart skall du taga vagen? Jag maste val rymma landet. 4 Vart skall du gora av hustrun din? Hon far val spinna for fodan sin. 5. Vart skall du gora av barnen ? De maste val ga for andra mans dorr. (De miste val tigga fodan sin.) 6. Vart skall du av ikren din? Han far val falla lind pa lind. 7. Nar skall du komma tillbaka? Nar svanen borjar svartna. 8. Nar borjar svanen svartna? Ndr korpen borjar vitna. 9. Nar borjar korpen vitnal Nar stenen barjar flyta. 10. Nar barjar stenen flytal -du sven i rosengird.- Nar solen gar upp i vaster -kdra moder var.- -I vinten mig sent eller aldrig.- * * * * 1 Where have you been staying, Sven in Rosengard? I have been in the stable, women mother Where you will see me late or never. 2 What have you done in the stable? I have beat my brother to death. 3 Where are you going to be safe? I must choose to leave the country. 4 Where are you going to do your wife? She's choosing to spin with her foot. 5 Where are you going to leave the children? The best choice is to leave them at other men's door. (They must beg for food.) 6. When will you leave your yard? His father's choice falls born without birth. 7. When will you come back? When the swan is born black. 8. When does the swan become black? When the raven turns white. 9. When does the raven become white? When the stone does float. 10. When does the stone float? -My Sven i Rosengard.- When the sun rises in the north, women mother You expect me late but I'll return never. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 5 From: Richie Date: 17 Oct 18 - 12:20 AM Hi, The following Finnish version was written down March 17, 1823, in Abo by J.J. Pippingskold (d. 1832). The manuscript is now preserved in the library of the University in Helsingfors (shelfmark D.IV.47). This text has been printed in Kansanopiston laulukirja (1909) 336-37 No. 290. Suomen kansan uanhat runot [Folk songs of the Finnish People] (Keksi-Inkerin) IV No. 2701. From Moloskoritsa, Central Ingria, Finland. 1 Mist' tulet, kustas tulet, Poikaini iloinen? [answer missing]. 2. Mist saappaas savvee soit? Maateita myote kulkeissain, Likka lintusein. 3. Mistas miekkas verree teit? Tapoin miehen, saatoin paaha. 4. Mihinkis luulet joutusasi? Jourein maille vierahille. 5. Mihin jatat sie issiais? Kiykoon metsass, hakatkoo halkii. 6. Mihin jatat diti seisi? Istukoo nurkassa, ratvokoo villa. 7. Mihin jdtit veikko seisi? Punokoo nuora, lyokoo koiraa. 8. Mihin jatat siskoseisi? Kehratkoo rihmaa, kutokoo kankast. 9. Kensas tuolta peisi poaset? Kensa korppi valkenoopi. * * * * 1. From where do you come, my happy son? [answer missing] 2. Why are your boots dirty? From wandering along the highway, my girl, my little bird. 3. Why is your sword so bloody? I have killed a man, I have put my head in danger. 4. Where do you expect to go? I went to foreign-lands. 5. What do you leave your father? Let him wander in the forest, split billets of wood. 6. What do you leave your mother? Let her sit in the corner, knit wool. 7. What do you leave your brother? Let him plait a rope, beat a dog. 8. To what do you leave your sister? Let her spin yarn, weave goods. 9. When will you come back? When the raven turns white. |
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