Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed

Subject: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 06:35 PM

Hi,

I'm working on the ballads of Child 13 and found the c. 1640 Swedish variant Gruntvig A and although I've been transcribing part of this need help with the transcription. I'll be greatly indebted to anyone who can get an accurate transcription. Since this is the earliest know text of Child 13 I consider it to be important,

TY

Richie

* * * *

SMB 153: SVEN I ROSENGÅRD
TSB D 320 153

A.
UUB T 144 b, s. 79-80. Uppskrift från 1600-talets mitt, sannolikt från uppsvenskt område (Jonsson I, s. 190-195).

1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar,
Sohnen i Roosengård
Mycket der vthi feelar,
Käre Moder wår (vår)
- i wänten oss aldrig.

2 Nåde och frijd aff herran:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den ware migh ey fierran.
Käre moder wår

3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria:
Sonen i Roosengård:
Nu först det icke börias
Käre Moder wår

4 Annat iagh ey tänker:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh,
dett werlden migh ihnskänker,
Käre moder wår

5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa:
Sohnen i Rosengårdh:
effter som dee migh pröfwa:
Käre moder wår

6 Rijkedom effter trachta:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den iagh lijtet achtar,
Kära moder wår

7 Redeligen wandra:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
hoos edher och bland andra:
Kära moder vår

8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh
han war migh aldrigh godher
Kära Moder wår

9 Ey mon han dödher wara,
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jo, så plä skalkar fahra
Kära moder wår

10 Aldrigh du det förgäter,
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
Jagh slipper fulle släter:
Käre Moder wår

11 Ney du skall det betaala:
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jagh will der medh förhaala
Kära Moder wår

12 Sannerligh det ey hielper:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
fögha det migh stielper.
Käre Moder wår

13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
här i hielper det fögha.
Käre Moder wår

14 Rundeligh kan du bööta:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta
Kära moder wår

15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra.
Kära moder wår

16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt.
Kära Moder wår

17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Det är ey till det bästa:
Kära moder wåhr

18 Kan ingen digh hugswala:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Näy icke vthan fahra:
Käre Moder wåhr

19 Så will du hedan reesa:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa
Käre moder wåhr

20 Rymmer du uthur Landet
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja vndan skalka händer
Kära moder wåhr

21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Ey det på första Qwisten.
Ka ra Moder wår

22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader:
Sohnen i Roosengård
på den är iagh ey gladher:
Kära moder wår

23 Han will digh ighen tagha,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh skall wäl annars lagha,
Kära Moder wår

24 Din fader digh wäll finner,
Sohnen i roosengård.
Nappast han migh hinner
Kära Moder wår

25 Ähn Konungen i rijket:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
han finner wäl sihn lijke:
Käre Modher wåhr.

26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända
sohnen i Roosengård
Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända
Kära moder wår

27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda
sohnen i Roosengård
Medh ahrbethe och möda,
Käre moder wår

28 När kommer du åter
Sohnen i Roosengård
När Elden blifaer wåter.
Kära moder wår

29 När will du ighen komma.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När steenen står i blomma.
Kära moder wår

30 När will du blijfwa hemma
Sohnen i Roosengård
När stenen böriar simma.
Kära moder wår

31 När skall iag till digh hinna.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När watnet böriar brinna
Käre moder wår

32 När seer iagh digh min bästa
Sohnen i Roosengård
När som det dagas wästan
Käre moder wår

33   Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga
Sohnen i Roosengård
der före i nu råda.
Kära moder wåhr
- i wänten oss aldrig.

* * * *

30:1 blijfna hemma orden skrivna i omvänd ordningsföljd, vilken korrigerats

Anmärkning
Ms saknar strofnr. Omkvädet utskrivet i str. 1 och 33,
markerat i str. 1-16, 18, 20-22, 24.
28:2    Elden ordets början svårtydd, möjligen ändrat från steenen

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 06:41 PM

Hi,

It's a dialogue song between mother and son. I started roughly translating it and have:

1 "All good fellow friends,
Son in Roosengård"
"There is much feeling,
Dear Mother mine [Our dear mother]
--I'll never warn you."

2 "Grace and freedom my lord:
Son in Roosengård:"
"The truth is far away,
Dear mother mine."

also:

28 "When will you come back?
Son in Roosengård,"
"When the fire burns wet,
Dear mother mine."

29 When will you come back?
Son in Roosengård
When the stone is in bloom.
Dear mother mine.

30 When will you return home?
Son in Roosengård
When the stone starts to swim.
Dear mother mine.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Richie
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 09:39 AM

Hi,

I've translated the ending as:

31 When will I see you again?
Son in Roosengård
When the water begins to burn,
Dear mother mine

32 When will I see you again, my dear?
Son in Roosengård
When the sun sets in the west[1]
Dear mother mine

33 Did you answer the last question?
Son in Roosengård
That before you now advise.
Dear Mother mine
I will never wait[2].

1. interpreted from: When it's time to go to the west
2. interpreted from: I will never wait for you

Comments or suggestions?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM

Is this different, but translated, version any help?

http://www.evatoller.se/translation/S/mixed/svenirosengaard.pdf

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Reinhard
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:19 PM

There are several Danish and Swedish versions and translations in the thread Tune Req: Sven (SVEND I ROSENSGAARD).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Reinhard
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:25 PM

... but these are all quite different from the version Richie posted. It doesn't help that his verses are very old Swedish with spelling that online translators doesn't recognise.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Richie
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 07:08 PM

Hi,

I have learned some words and phrases from these transcriptions that will improve mine, ty.

Reinhard is right there are some archaic words that are difficult - that google transcription can not read. Someone that knows Swedish folk songs would be able to help. In some cases a literal translation makes no sense since the meaning in poetic.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: OldPossum
Date: 23 Oct 18 - 11:55 AM

My native language is Danish, and this is 17th century Swedish, so I certainly can't provide an accurate translation of every detail, but I will translate the bits I feel confident about:

1 Alt godt iagh tigh meddeelar,
Sohnen i Roosengård
Mycket der vthi feelar,
Käre Moder wår (vår)
- i wänten oss aldrig.
All good things I tell to you,
Son in the rose garden
Many of these things are flawed,
Dear mother mine [literally: Dear mother our. A royal plural perhaps.]
- Expect us never.

2 Nåde och frijd aff herran:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den ware migh ey fierran.
Käre moder wår
Grace and peace of the Lord
Son in the rose garden:
May it not be far from me.
Dear mother mine.

3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria:
Sonen i Roosengård:
Nu först det icke börias
Käre Moder wår

4 Annat iagh ey tänker:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh,
dett werlden migh ihnskänker,
Käre moder wår

5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa:
Sohnen i Rosengårdh:
effter som dee migh pröfwa:
Käre moder wår

6 Rijkedom effter trachta:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
den iagh lijtet achtar,
Kära moder wår
Coveting riches:
I have but little desire of that.

7 Redeligen wandra:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
hoos edher och bland andra:
Kära moder vår
To wander [ie. to conduct myself] decently
With you and among others.

8 Inthet hörs aff din brodher:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh
han war migh aldrigh godher
Kära Moder wår
Nothing is heard of your brother
He was never good to me.

9 Ey mon han dödher wara,
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jo, så plä skalkar fahra
Kära moder wår
Might he be dead?
Indeed, that is often the fate of scoundrels.

10 Aldrigh du det förgäter,
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
Jagh slipper fulle släter:
Käre Moder wår

11 Ney du skall det betaala:
Sohnen i Roosengård:
Jagh will der medh förhaala
Kära Moder wår
No, you must pay for this:
I shall delay it.

12 Sannerligh det ey hielper:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
fögha det migh stielper.
Käre Moder wår
Truly it will not help;
It will hardly hinder me.

13 Ey will du migh bedröfwa:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
här i hielper det fögha.
Käre Moder wår
You will not cause me sorrow;
That can hardly be helped.

14 Rundeligh kan du bööta:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta
Kära moder wår

15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra.
Kära moder wår

16 Annat då hahr iagh med digh mehnt,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh fruchtar det är nu förseendt.
Kära Moder wår
I wanted it to be otherwise for you,
I fear it is now too late.

17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Det är ey till det bästa:
Kära moder wåhr

18 Kan ingen digh hugswala:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Näy icke vthan fahra:
Käre Moder wåhr
Can no-one give you solace?
No, not without danger.

19 Så will du hedan reesa:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa
Käre moder wåhr

20 Rymmer du uthur Landet
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja vndan skalka händer
Kära moder wåhr
Will you flee from the land?
Yes, away from the hands of scoundrels.

21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Ey det på första Qwisten.
Ka ra Moder wår

22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader:
Sohnen i Roosengård
på den är iagh ey gladher:
Kära moder wår

23 Han will digh ighen tagha,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh skall wäl annars lagha,
Kära Moder wår

24 Din fader digh wäll finner,
Sohnen i roosengård.
Nappast han migh hinner
Kära Moder wår

25 Ähn Konungen i rijket:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
han finner wäl sihn lijke:
Käre Modher wåhr.

26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända
sohnen i Roosengård
Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända
Kära moder wår

27 Hwad will du dig medh fööda
sohnen i Roosengård
Medh ahrbethe och möda,
Käre moder wår
How will you earn a living? [literally: how will you feed youself]
By work and weariness.

28 När kommer du åter
Sohnen i Roosengård
När Elden blifaer wåter.
Kära moder wår
When will you come back?
When the fire turns wet.

29 När will du ighen komma.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När steenen står i blomma.
Kära moder wår
When will you come back?
When the stone is in bloom.

30 När will du blijfwa hemma
Sohnen i Roosengård
När stenen böriar simma.
Kära moder wår
When will you be home?
When the stone starts to swim.

31 När skall iag till digh hinna.
Sohnen i Roosengård
När watnet böriar brinna
Käre moder wår
When shall I be with you/reach you [I'm not quite sure here]
When water starts burning.

32 När seer iagh digh min bästa
Sohnen i Roosengård
När som det dagas wästan
Käre moder wår
When will I see you again, my dear?
When day breaks in the west.

33 Skall iagh mehr om digh fråga
Sohnen i Roosengård
der före i nu råda.
Kära moder wåhr
- i wänten oss aldrig.
Shall I ask you any more questions?
Son in the rose garden.
That is for you to decide.
Dear mother mine
- Expect us (me) never.

* * * *

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Shimmering
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 03:15 PM

The translation by Old Possum is good. I'll add a bit more. I have some familiarity with these old Swedish ballads. That's not to say I understand every word of this at first sight.

One possible reason for the vår rather than min in the second omkväde line could be that it rhymes better with rosengård. Rhymes in omkväde lines are hardly common, but this does seem to be a very well-rhyming version of the ballad, so maybe. The other possible explanation has to do with her also being the mother of the dead brother: there is a plural again: oss in the final omkväde line (never expect us), and if that has something to do with the song (they don’t always), it could be referring to the son and his dead brother ... so perhaps that is also true of vår.

Here are the extra verses. As you can see, I don’t get all of them:

3 Kan iagh gott aff digh spöria:
Sonen i Roosengård:
Nu först det icke börias
Käre Moder wår

3. Can I ask you something, son in the rosegarden.
[[I think this means something like: don’t start that now]], dear mother of ours

4 Annat iagh ey tänker:
Sohnen i Roosengårdh,
dett werlden migh ihnskänker,
Käre moder wår

4. I don't plan on doing anything else (lit. I don’t think anything else), son in the rosegarden.
Whatever the world brings me, dear mother of ours.

5 Dageligh du dygdh öfwa:
Sohnen i Rosengårdh:
effter som dee migh pröfwa:
Käre moder wår

5. Every day you do good deeds, son in the rosegarden.
Because they test/challenge me, dear mother of ours.


10 Aldrigh du det förgäter,
Sohnen i Roosengårdh:
Jagh slipper fulle släter:
Käre Moder wår

10. You will never forget it, son in the rosegarden.
I will avoid ... [[?]], dear mother of ours.

14 Rundeligh kan du bööta:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Jagh tohl ey dee migh hööta
Kära moder wår

14. You will pay in full, son in the rosegarden.
I can’t stand that they [you??] threaten me, dear mother of ours.

15 Zeel må du nähr migh wara:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh blijhr ey vthan fahra.
Kära moder wår

15. [zeel??] You should be [zeel??] near me, son in the rosegarden.
[lit. I will not be not in danger], dear mother of ours.


17 Jagh hahr digh ähmat trösta:
Sohnen i Rosengård
Det är ey till det bästa:
Kära moder wåhr

17. I had thought I would comfort you, son in the rosegarden.
That would not be for the best, dear mother of ours.


19 Så will du hedan reesa:
Sohnen i Roosengård
Ja, dijt iagh rååkar lijsa
Käre moder wåhr

19. So you want to travel away from here, son in the rosegarden?
Yes, to wherever I happen to [?], dear mother of ours.


21 Så sägh migh då ditt Näste:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
Ey det på första Qwisten.
Ka ra Moder wår

21. So tell me then where your nest will be [lit. so tell me then your nest], son in the rosegarden?
Not on the first branch, dear mother of ours.


22 Då, huadh mehnar din fader:
Sohnen i Roosengård
på den är iagh ey gladher:
Kära moder wår

22. Then what will your father think, son in the rosegarden?
I am not happy about that, dear mother of ours.


23 Han will digh ighen tagha,
Sohnen i Rosengård
Jagh skall wäl annars lagha,
Kära Moder wår

23. He will take you back, son in the rosegarden.
I suppose I will have it otherwise, dear mother of ours.


24 Din fader digh wäll finner,
Sohnen i roosengård.
Nappast han migh hinner
Kära Moder wår

24. I suppose your father will find you, son in the rosegarden.
He will hardly find (reach) me, dear mother of ours.


25 Ähn Konungen i rijket:
Sohnen i Roosengård.
han finner wäl sihn lijke:
Käre Modher wåhr.

25. Even the king in his realm, son in the rosegarden.
I suppose he will find his [equal, or corpse, don’t know which], dear mother of ours.


26 Hwart hahr du ähmat lända
sohnen i Roosengård
Dijt werlden hahr ehn ända
Kära moder wår

26. Where do you think you will go, son in the rosegarden?
To where the world has an end, dear mother of ours.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 03:34 PM

Richie
When you have all of the Swedish versions and older versions from other countries translated, along with the above great assistance, you might have a better crack at it. I think all of my translations are from the Danish.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: translation of Swedish folk song needed
From: Richie
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 01:10 PM

Wow thanks everyone,

Steve mentioned Ian Cumpstey-- does anyone know how I can contact him?

Richie