Is it still an old Martin?

Subject: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 06:10 AM

In the sixties when I was first learning guitar,a very talented friend with a good ear told me to get a Martin for the best tone. Is this still true?

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 06:24 AM

A lot of people will agree with your friend, but since then a whole load of new, top end, acoustic guitars have appeared on the scene. There are alternatives now that didn't exist in the 60s. Let your ears decide.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 08:32 AM

Oho - another internet debate on the "best" guitar. :-)

Anyway, what Stanron says.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 12:22 PM

Martins are built from high quality materials. But it used to be - that even though they were made of good materials - they needed your local luthier to set it up to ensure the best action, to make sure the the grooves on the nut were the right width,   and that the pegs were seated correctly in their holes.

Also you had to go out and buy your own strap stud to go in the neck, and get the shop to do it for you.

Whereas the high end yamahas play pretty well straight out of the box. But this was the way last time I bought a new Martin D35 - things may have changed.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM

More recent Martins seem to be of dubious quality, guitars made for people with a "mid life crisis"

What you choose to buy of course depends on how much you have in your wallet and how much you want to spend.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 12:37 PM

Go round a lot of guitar stores, try as many guitars as you can, buy the one that sounds the best to you? Preferably take a friend whos a player and get them to play so that you can hear them from out front - there's a world of difference between what the player hears and what his/her audience hears.

Don't worry too much if the one that sounds best isn't the best with regards playability - a good tech/luthier can make any guitar play easily.

And, to answer Al's comment about Martin playability, since the introduction of the Plek process a few years ago, the factory setup has improved dramatically (always assuming that the retailers store their guitars in properly climate-controlled conditions).

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,guestrs
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 02:46 PM

I recently bought a new 'Re-imagined' series Martin 00-28, & can attest to its fine sound & very good setup & playability right out of the box - I'd guess that the competitiveness of the acoustic guitar market, from the likes of eg Eastman, has forced them to maintain a very high standard.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:14 PM

I recently owned a Martin OMCP electric acoustic - mid-jumbo cutaway. These retail in the UK new at around £1,700. Got mine second-hand online from a local store. The best way to describe it was competent - sapele back & sides, spruce top, plastic nut and saddle, plastic bridge, richlite fretboard. Average acoustic.

I spotted a 22-year old Lowden in a Slough store on Wednesday - drove up and traded in the Martin for it. What a difference. Fantastic sound, clarity, tone and projection.

Just one experience.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:17 PM

In the UK, Faith Acoustics seem to be gaining positive reviews
in the under a thousand quid price range...

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:20 PM

Brook Guitars in Devon have also got a very good reputation.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:20 PM

..and a decade ago Blueridge Guitars were competing well above their retail price...

Don't know if they have maintained that reputation in 2018...???

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 04:09 PM

As Will Fly predicted this is turning into a “best/favourite guitar” thread.

The last new Martin guitar I bought cost me £190 and they were difficult to get hold of. In my mind, Martin guitars has lost its way in recent years with all manner of model specs. and materials. Back it the day there were only half a dozen or so. (Are they still making the awful formica topped one?)

Whilst Martin has moved on, so have other builders and my first choice would no longer be Martin.

My main guitar is a Santa Cruz TR which is, in effect, a copy of a Martin (a very specific Martin owned by Tony Rice and previously Clarence White) Martin seemed to be so impressed with this model that they produced their own version. I have always been amused at the thought that Martin produced a Martin copy of a copy of a Martin!

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 04:51 PM

Are they still making the awful formica topped one?

You mean the ones with the High Pressure Laminate (HPL) back and sides and spruce top - yes, they are. There was a thread on these guitars recently.

I have one - a Martin XC1T, which I bought in 2006 and, I have to say, it has an excellent sound - ironically better than the OM I traded in! I didn't buy it because it had the Martin name on the headstock - simply because it sounded very nice and felt good to play.

I think the rule is - get your budget fixed on, try several new and s/h makes that fit the price - and go for sound and playability over make and looks. But that's just my own philosophy.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 05:04 PM

Buy a guitar, not a brand.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 07:45 AM

Thanks for all the interesting comments. Now the question is why the sound is better on an old guitar,in general. I had a usedD18 on which I had to use a 12 string capo;never let anyone play it,so I did not realize the problem. Got strong fingers......for a female.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 08:26 AM

Ultimately, it depends upon an inidvidual’s opinion of what sounds “better”.

The general consensus is that the materials used to builld old guitars - wood, hide glue and whatever the instrument is finished with - have changed in their chemical and phyiscal structure giving them a dryer more mellow sound.

Whether guitars built of laminated materials (plywood) or high pressure laminate (formica) tops and Richlite (highly compressed paper and phenolic resin) fingerboards will age in the same way remains to be seen.

If you’re going for one built with “modern” materials, buy one you like the sound of but don’t expect it’s sound to change/improve. Incidentally, my £190 Martin is just about to celebrate it’s 45th birthday.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 11:37 AM

high pressure laminate (formica) tops

Guitars made with HPL usually have the back and sides made from HPL - the tops ae usually spruce.

It's also worth remembering that the more the wood moves by being played, the mellower and richer it will usually sound. So, longevity may help here.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 12:02 PM

On Les Paul forums there are widely accepted theories that the glue used in 1958 to 1960
had better sonic qualities which has improved with aging...

oh yeah... that well justifies the 1/4 million dollars or more to own an old sunburst Les Paul...

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 01:08 PM

I think Martin also made some with HPL (Formica) tops and it was those I was thinking of.

Back and sides aren’t so important in sound production - although in mandolins a carved back adds a surprising amount to the overall sound.

The main problem with such materials is their repairability. A luthier friend of mine carefully spliced back together a 60s Martin which another friend fell on when he stupidly decided to ski to the local session with it on his back in a gig bag one snowy night. I doubt he would have ben able to get an HPL guitar repaired.

I shudder to think what different sort of hide glue Gibson was using between 1958 and 1960!!!!

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 02:14 PM

I love my Martin 00-16 DB, which I bought from its first owner in 2007 after some 30 years of trying steel-strung guitars (usually Dreadnoughts, the most popular type in eastern Canada) and finding them awkward to play. It has a fine, well-integrated sound and is surprisingly loud for its size -- the spruce top, I presume.

My guitar was built in 1992, and I don't know if that counts as old. It is one of the Women In Music series. If you ever have a chance to play one, try it -- especially if you are short in the torso and have small hands.

All the advice about trying all the guitars until you find the right one is valid. It doesn't cost anything but time to work your way through a rack of instruments to see how they differ, and don't. Also important is understanding what kind of guitar player you are; for example, if you're a jazz guy who likes to solo, look at arch-top types, or if you favour bluegrass or country styles, sit down with a Gibson -- or a guitar by one of the multitude of makers that copy Gibson designs.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 04:01 PM

Perhaps things are different up in Canada but in the U.S. you don't see many Gibsons being played in Bluegrass bands, guitarists overwhelmingly favor Martin Dreads and guitars that emulate that style by makers like Santa Cruz, Bourgeois and Collings. The slope shoulder Gibson Dread is a lovely design and is well represented in Country Music. I had an old J-45 who's neck was too narrow for me but it sounded great and now I'm playing a Bourgeois Slope D that fits me better and recaptures that dry woody sound those mahogany Gibsons were known for.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 05:27 PM

HPL guitars are virtually unrepairable as the laminated layers splinter in different ways. Some luthiers have experimented with fibreglass repairs, and epoxy has to take the place of conventional guitar glues.

Probably less hassle to replace completely rather than get them repaired. However, as long as they don't shatter from a real impact, they're incredibly durable.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 12:31 PM

These are my criteria for a guitar:

You like the sound.
The fretboard fits your hand.
The body fits your body.
You don't wake up in the middle of the night saying, 'Why oh why did I spend all that money on that stupid guitar?"

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 01:07 PM

Trouble is that all guitars are different which is why I have several - I think it was eleven at the last count and they nicely comliment the fourteen mandolins, mandolas and OMs.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM

In terms of buying, it’s choice of what you want from a guitar rather than the quality these days. My stage guitar is £200 and both plays and sounds as good as any of my £2k + guitars when plugged in. In fact, it is rather nice acoustic...

Manufacturing techniques mean that pressure seasoning to the optimum dryness, laser cutting and high quality glues take a lot of the guesswork out. Hand made luthier guitars will always vary but a production run of a high volume unit will yield identical guitars. You can say that now, but not a few years ago.

Getting them set up, string choice etc are where differences come in.

Martin make excellent guitars, from the X series of laminates and polymer / sawdust all the way to A+++ timbers.   Their neck profiles suit many styles and yes, many guitars copy their original designs. Headstock envy exists and you will be taken seriously if your headstock says Martin. You won’t regret your choice either.

But I could say that about many makes. I personally have a “thing” about Eastman and love my ‘dread but a non guitarist would hopefully like the noise it makes.

There are many good makes out there that the big marketing names such as Martin and Gibson can’t quite keep up with. There are some that cost more than the big American names and some less. Lowdown, Fylde, Foggy Bottom... You could go on forever. Taylor make consistently good guitars (the manufacturing techniques of China but made in USA and priced accordingly.) They are putting more thought into design than most volume producers. Me? I haven’t found a Taylor that says “buy me” yet and ditto Gibson. But again, that’s choice not quality. All fine guitars.

It is a real buyers’ market with the choice that we never had when I started playing as a teenager. Perhaps that’s why so many of us suffer from GAS....

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 03:56 PM

"It is a real buyers’ market with the choice that we never had when I started playing as a teenager. Perhaps that’s why so many of us suffer from GAS...."

Amen to that, Bloke!

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 04:31 PM

Oh I don't know Backwoodsman. When I was a young lad, many years ago, I had a guitar shop near by in Manchester that stocked Loudons, Gibsons, Martins, Flydes, Yamahas, Guilds, Washburns and a good many others. I spent HOURS in that shop which fortunately for me was owned by two mates who let me play anything I wanted.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 18 - 04:49 PM

Bugger-all out here in The Backwoods when I was a young buck, Raggy - but I've made up for it over the past twenty years or so! ;-)

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: guitaaress
Date: 24 Oct 18 - 08:43 PM

I used to own a 1963 D18 but had to sell it as a result of a divorce. However I still own three gorgeous Martins An HD28 an M38 which I have just had fixed due to some damage caused by weather and old age (Australian climate is not kind to guitars of any maker) the M38 is totally outstanding. The 28 very recordable. For live work I have an OM28 a couple of years old now but through my AER into a PA is every sound engineers wet dream. I also own a Collins D1 (replacement for the 18 ) I use that for bluegrass. It is a cannon head turner even up against prewar Martins. Martin still make consistent quality instruments and are responsible for more great guitars than any other marque. There are however better guitars on the market. Collins,Santa Cruz, Henderson the list is huge. Depends what your needs are. But none of mine will ever be for sale until I fall off the perch if that tells you anything.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 09:58 AM

"Trouble is that all guitars are different"

Why do you describe that as trouble, Ray?

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 10:23 AM

Leenia - When I was 17, my first real decent quality electric guitar*
was equipped with multiple pickup switching options,
which were claimed to sound almost like any popular Gibson or Fender...

No it didn't.. not really..
and for all the reasons that brand of guitar failed to survive;
one was mainly because too many young inexperienced players
found the pickup switching far more confusing than helpful...

So the 'trouble' is that instead of paying for one guitar that does it all, jack of all trades /swiss army..
but not very convincingly...


we end up spending thousands on a collection of guitars that each do their own one unique thing really very well...

[* Shergold Masquerader..]

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 03:28 PM

Ah well PFR.. if we bring electrics into the equation.

I have a set of Bare Knuckle Nantucket P90 in a ‘56 Les Paul reissue. They are supposed to be raw of course, not to mention feedback prone. Stick them through a Boss set of pedals and they are as creamy and well behaved as any decent humbucker.

Technology helps the electric market (in terms of the actual sound) far more than acoustic guitars. Playability and quality go into the same argument though, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Oct 18 - 01:45 PM

Hi, punkfolkrocker. I know what you mean about the switches. I feel the same about my microwave oven.

I have three acoustic guitars. A small one to carry back and forth to church, a plywood one to lend to friends, and my baby, the only thing I would consider grabbing on the way out of a house afire.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 12:28 PM

For what it's worth, I have never found anything that beats my Yamaha FG365se. That's as long as you play in regular tuning as I do now days.
Yamaha rosewood laminates are excellent for the sides, and the new ARE system is well worth looking at. I admit I was tempted by an L16 ARE, but went back to the old FG. Martins don't do it for me I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 12:28 PM

For what it's worth, I have never found anything that beats my Yamaha FG365se. That's as long as you play in regular tuning as I do now days.
Yamaha rosewood laminates are excellent for the sides, and the new ARE system is well worth looking at. I admit I was tempted by an L16 ARE, but went back to the old FG. Martins don't do it for me I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 01:07 PM

Nick,

I have a Yamaha FG335.

I bought it in January 1979 with my girlfriends (now my wife) tax rebate!

Over nearly 40 years it has just got better and better. Certainly a match for any Martin (on which it is based)

These days I normally keep it in DADGAD tuning in which it excels.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 02:31 PM

I bought mine when I joined the Tommy Dempsey Band 1983 (and left again PDQ)
It does not like any other tuning than standard.
What do you think of the new ARE wood seasoning process Yamaha are using. Some one told me Bernard Wrigley had swapped to high end Yams.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 03:51 PM

My totally favourite acoustic is the cedar topped Cpx15cm.

Its got a slim neck - like a strat, and that tight punchy tone you only get with cedar topped - something to do with that closeness of the grain.

My stage guitar is the dreadnought Fender Paramount, with the Adirondack Spruce top. couldn't afford the rosewood model, I got the mahogany one. Its the nicest acoustic Fender have done for some little while. Back in 1974, I had an F85, a magic guitar - wish I still had it!

The paramount feels and playslike a classic Gibson Hummingbird or J45, but with the modern tuner and a fabulous transducer system.

In the end, its all very personal. We all ask different things out of our guitars, because there is no correct way to play folk guitar. Its up to you to work out your own salvation.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 06:20 PM

Yes it is personal. However rosewood gives that punch to the bass strings that you will not get with mahogany. Still say Yams are drastically underrated.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 07:03 PM

Mmmm... I've got a 22 year old Lowden O-10c with mahogany back & sides and western red cedar top - gives huge volume, projection and clarity, with bass to match. The best I've ever owned in 55 years of playing.

I just think that every guitar - particularly hand-built instruments - have their own characteristics. Tonewoods are important, of course, but it doesn't mean that every bit of, say, Brazilian rosewood, is as good as any other. Grain, age, relationship of back to face, etc. - plus the skill of the luthier - all create unique instruments.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM

Yes I've got three Yamahas at the moment. four if you count Ll16bl I've been waiting a year for the money from a friend

the cpx from the compass range. an ac3r, which is concert size and is rosewood. and one of the new transacoustics. Its a gimmick but I love the chorus and reverb effect on groups of die hard acoustic folkies!

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 07:19 PM

Yes I've got three Yamahas at the moment. four if you count Ll16bl I've been waiting a year for the money from a friend

the cpx from the compass range. an ac3r, which is concert size and is rosewood. and one of the new transacoustics. Its a gimmick but I love the chorus and reverb effect on groups of die hard acoustic folkies!

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 09:22 AM

LL16D has an acoustic resonance treatment (ARE). Has anyone tried it? (and compared it to a Martin, to return to the thread)

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 10:38 AM

yes I used to have both simultaneously.The Yamaha LLx16bll and the Martin D28.
the ARE was pretty rubbish. Very complicated - there were lots of little potentiometers that didn't really add much to anything but made the volume ineffectual. Not being Ralph McTell the Yamaha corporation were bloody unhelpful. I got a luthier to by pass it, and it was a bloody good guitar. Kind of hunky, like those old Levins.

The Martin was lovely felt like an old hunting rifle. I did a few good gigs with it. To be honest, the fault was with me. I had been struggling with a slide - and one day I went into a guitar shop and tried a guitar and could do what I'd been struggling with. So I went for that.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 01:30 PM

With respect Al, I think we are talking cross purpose here. ARE is the new seasoning system for the tone woods. It gives the wood age and seasoning that it has not actually got natrually, thus improving the acoustic tone, at least that's how I understood it. If I am wrong grovelling apologies.
Nick

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 01:38 PM

Here we are

A.R.E. (Acoustic Resonance Enhancement)
A.R.E. (Acoustic Resonance Enhancement) is an original wood reforming technology developed by Yamaha.
Through precise control of temperature, humidity, and atmospheric pressure, the molecular properties of the wood can be manipulated into a more acoustically ideal condition, similar to the molecular characteristics of woods in instruments that have been played for years.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 04:58 PM

Martin call it 'Torrefaction' on their guitars.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 08:02 PM

So Yamaha are not the only ones who use this system then, who else does it? I'm Genuinely interested.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 08:07 PM

Just Googled Torrefaction. You think you know it all and then along comes Backwoodsman. Thanks for that. Have you or any other kind soul tried a guitar that has been constructed after treatment?

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 08:31 PM

When I was 16 I experimented with torrefaction on new violins.
I turned a couple into crisp bacon. High tensile strength and low density is the goal.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 01:56 AM

I believe many (most?) of the 'big name' builders are using Torrefaction, or a similar 'curing' process now - Larrivee, Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, etc., etc. Can't speak about the 'top' UK builders because their instruments aren't on my personal radar. I haven't knowingly played a Torrefied guitar - my Martins, Collings, and Lowden are all non-torrefied instruments (all but one were built before Torrefaction became a regular thing), and I'm not looking for another guitar so I'm not going around playing them in stores.

There are frequent threads on the AGF and UMGF about Torrefaction - might be worth checking those out.

Sorry I can't be any more helpful than that.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 02:36 AM

That means my old Yam has 'Torrefacted ' (is that right?) itself, so were you to buy a second hand instrument, say a LL something, it might be more stable than a new treated instrument. So our friend above who says this is a marketing ploy may well be correct. I'm sort of thinking out loud here. Interesting though.

Subject: RE: Is it still an old Martin?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 18 - 03:17 AM

I knew an old Sussex violin maker/repairer who used to suspend new violins in a specially made vibrating cradle from the ceiling of his workshop. The cradle vibrated at fairly high resonances. Michael (the maker) told me that three weeks of constant vibration was the equivalent of the wood being "played in" for a year. He said it was essential that wooden instruments are played regularly so as to improve the tonal qualities of the vibrating wood.

Guitars I've had made on commission for me have sounded dry on first playing and, by the end of a year or so, start to mellow and "grow" tone.