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Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old

GUEST,Nick Dow 14 Nov 18 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Jerry 15 Nov 18 - 03:14 AM
G-Force 15 Nov 18 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,SteveT 15 Nov 18 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 15 Nov 18 - 04:48 AM
Michael 15 Nov 18 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,keberoxu 15 Nov 18 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Brian Grayson 16 Nov 18 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Wee Jock 16 Nov 18 - 07:40 AM
Will Fly 16 Nov 18 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,henryp 16 Nov 18 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,John from "Elsie`sBand" 16 Nov 18 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 18 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,henryp 16 Nov 18 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,henryp 16 Nov 18 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 16 Nov 18 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,henryp 17 Nov 18 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 17 Nov 18 - 05:43 AM
GUEST 17 Nov 18 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 17 Nov 18 - 01:09 PM
GUEST 17 Nov 18 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 17 Nov 18 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 17 Nov 18 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 17 Nov 18 - 03:13 PM
JHW 17 Nov 18 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 17 Nov 18 - 05:38 PM
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Subject: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Nov 18 - 07:36 PM

I have just caught up with Peter Jacksons' magnificent restoration of 100 year old film of world war 1. It is as if it was filmed yesterday with an HD camera. It really brings home what for me, my Grandfather suffered in the trenches. As a singer of traditional songs, these are the sons and daughters of those singers that the early collectors visited. For the numerous song writers who have been inspired by the horrors of the great war, this is essential viewing. It is available on the BBC I player for a few more weeks. Download it watch it and be amazed. Look under BBC2 11/11 you'll find it. This film will allow you to step back in time and experience the sights that maybe some of your family experienced. Next time you sing the songs that tell the story of the war, or Traditional songs that were in the memory of some of the young men in the trenches, the pictures will be all brighter in your minds eye.
I am not going to apologise for waxing so lyrical, because at time of writing I am genuinely moved. I think you will be too.
All the best
Nick Dow


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 15 Nov 18 - 03:14 AM

Yes, compulsive viewing, I would say. The soundtrack of solely veterans’ voices brought it even more to life.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Nov 18 - 04:21 AM

Absolutely essential viewing. If I had any criticisms, it would be that the timeline was a bit vague. And of course the title should have been 'They shall grow not old'. But yes, quite unforgettable.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 15 Nov 18 - 04:33 AM

As well as the programme itself there’s a half hour programme which looks at Peter Jackson and how the films were ‘resto . It shows how much of a labour of love it was to create the images from the original black & white newsreel footage. It’s in the “What do artist do all day?” series.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 18 - 04:48 AM

Yes the least I should have done is get the title correct. Thanks for the links.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: Michael
Date: 15 Nov 18 - 05:10 AM

It's not you Nick, the fault, if fault it is, lies with Peter Jackson.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 15 Nov 18 - 12:19 PM

here is a decent article.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 04:20 AM

So...

I dutifully registered my details (including my country of residence)with the BBC to watch the programmes, only to be told I couldn't because of being in Australia. Hmphh!


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Wee Jock
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 07:40 AM

I was greatly moved watching this programme,it made me wonder what kind of lives they had led prior to them joining up for what they thought would be for a very short time.What made it for me was hearing the soldiers voices,seeing their comrades being killed and just getting on with the job in hand. I wonder,if any of them could come back what would they think of today. I wonder.

Wee Jock


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 08:46 AM

One of the saddest points made - apart from the general devastation - was how the ex-servicemen were shunned and ignored when they came back to civvie life. "No ex-servicemen required"... Disgusting.

'Twas ever thus - Nelson's seamen were heroes when they were in the thick of the Napoleonic wars - and shunned as vagrants, tramps and ne'er-do-wells when they returned home in peacetime.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 09:12 AM

I went into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away" ;
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

The first verse of Tommy, an 1890 poem by Rudyard Kipling, reprinted in his 1892 Barrack-Room Ballads.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`sBand"
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 10:31 AM

Following is the last verse of our "Pompalary Jig" gleaned from Ray Driscoll many moons ago.The song itself refers to the campaign against Napoleon Bonaparte.

"And how did they serve the veterans who did the daring deeds?
Why, they published us a Vagrancy Act to furnish all our needs.
They passed by Act of Parliament with the Tories and the Whigs,
And they left us all with nothing but our Pompalary Jigs."


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 02:57 PM

I have two stepsons both of whom were in the Falklands war. Kipling, and the Pompalary Jig have got it right.
Wee Jock thinks like I do. My Grandfather handled it like so many others by becoming a communist. That side of the family are still socialists, including yours truly. I still can not get my head around the loss of half a generation, and Jacksons film brings home the fact that the so called 'Hun' were young men without a clue why they were fighting. This film makes it seem like it all happened yesterday.
The loss of life, the loss of family, the loss of skills, the loss of culture, and the way they were treated afterwards will make me forever a sad man when I think about it. However it makes our paltry day to day problems seem just that..paltry. How I wish I could talk to the old man again. I know what he'd say though. 'Pull your self together boy and get on with what you do best, and look after your wife.' Maybe that's what he was fighting for.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 04:47 PM

Unfortunately, not everybody in the UK lives comfortably. Our wealth isn't shared fairly, and there are vulnerable people who do need help.

But a UN Rapporteur reported today that Ministers are in a "state of denial" about poverty. Levels of child poverty are "staggering" and 1.5 million people were destitute at some point in 2017, he said.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 05:06 PM

And many of these vulnerable people are ex-servicemen. Daily Mirror, 13 January 2018;

Northern Ireland veteran Tony Hayes, 58, is now the chief ­executive of Veteran Assistance UK. He said: “Nearly all the homeless veterans we come across have PTSD or some form of mental health ­problem. Once they leave the Army, they lose their support structure. From our ­experience, the problem of homeless veterans has never been greater. I’d say 13,000 is a minimum – it could be far higher.”


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 06:16 PM

Just after I was married, an ex serviceman friend of my stepsons landed at my front door suffering from PTSD. I was only 29, and hadn't a clue what was going on. He got drunk so that night that he sh#t himself on my floor. I later heard he had gone off the rails and was in trouble. This was 1983 and the doctors had no clue how to treat the veterans. What chance did they stand back in 1918.
Now as a pensioner I'm watching the clock being turned back. Kids in poverty, 1.5 million people destitute at one time. The NHS being dismantled while lying bastards deny it. The old man said part proudly 'Nobody starves in Britain now.' Now we have queues at the food banks. In todays world if you drop down dead you're one less mouth to feed. My wife summed it up. 'If all those young men came back from the grave, they would take one look at what we have done to Britain, and run back to the grave again as quickly as possible.'


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:29 AM

I watched this late last night on BBC Two - WW1's Secret Shame; 29 days left to watch it on BBC iplayer.

Dan Snow explores the challenge presented by an ongoing mental health crisis among war veterans. He discovers how the shell shock of WW1 has evolved into the cases of PTSD that modern soldiers suffer with today.

Shockingly, lessons learnt from previous conflicts were soon forgotten. Battle trauma leads to alcoholism, broken families, violence and suicide on a shocking scale in the UK. He asks military psychiatrists and experts why we're still struggling to help the psychiatric casualties of war.

Dan shares frank and moving conversations with veterans of World War Two, the Falklands and Afghanistan, and also with relatives of those who fought in World War One.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:43 AM

I've got it downloaded. Thanks Henry.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 09:09 AM

Wee Jock, Nick Dow and his wife wonder about things, good for them. They wonder what the dead of the First World War would think if they came back today and see the results of their sacrifice.

'If all those young men came back from the grave, they would take one look at what we have done to Britain, and run back to the grave again as quickly as possible.' - (Nick Dow's wife's summation)

Of course they wouldn't. Why would they? Because according to some Australian human rights lawyer working for the UN (Who kept his UN sponsored mouth remarkably quite about dire poverty, persecution, starvation and genocide in Darfur in 2003) says that today in 2018 1.5 million people in the UK are living in poverty? That equates to 2.3% of the population of the UK (If that!!). I dare say that prior to the outbreak of the First World War in 1914 the percentage of the population that found itself living in dire poverty was a damned sight greater than 2.3%. No universal suffrage, only the vaguest beginnings of the welfare state we today take for granted. I know with absolute certainty that people in general are far better off today than my parents generation who in turn were much better off than their parents. Remember the Workhouse system, only formally ended in 1930 in England and Wales, so to any that say things are worse now than in 1914 I'd say you need to obtain a sense of perspective and honestly take a look at what things were like at that time.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 01:09 PM

I think you've missed the point who ever you are. This was never a competition to see who was better off, but a reaction to a film based on a reality, that has been brought back to us good and hard. We are allowed to share our thoughts you know. Maybe you are right, maybe you are not, I don't actually care. Try watching the film and see if you still feel the same way afterwards.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 02:16 PM

"they would take one look at what we have done to Britain, and run back to the grave again as quickly as possible." WHY? What is it that WE (whoever that might mean) have done to Britain?

"Kids in poverty, 1.5 million people destitute at one time. The NHS being dismantled"

What on earth has that to do with Peter Jackson's documentary? Nothing. I merely make two points in response to what you posted:

1: The poor were far more numerous in 1914 with far fewer options with regard to assistance

2: The poor today are far fewer and better supported than they were before the start of the conflict covered by Jackson's documentary.

On the subject of the NHS, the reality that is slowly beginning to dawn on the population of the United Kingdom is that if they, the population of the United Kingdom keep abusing its services it will always be under-resourced, under-funded, under-manned and under pressure - no matter how much money you throw at it.

I did watch the documentary the night it was broadcast.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 02:41 PM

So you did watch the film. Good I'm very pleased for you. Now you've had your say I hope you feel better. I'm sure you are quite right. Surprisingly this thread was about an emotional reaction to a moving film. The above anonymous guest wants us to stop being so reactive and accept his or her view of an economic reality as he or she sees it. Right we've all done that now, and you have managed to remove the pathos and feeling from this thread. Well done! My sincere apologies to all the other contributors to this thread, as sometimes happens on Mudcat it's been messed up. Please don't react to the above, or we will be straying away from our original thoughts. Who ever it is will not be happy unless they have the last word, so let them have it above. If he or she wants to waffle on, let them do it on their own. If anybody else has anything to say with relevance to my original post please feel free, if not I for one will let it go..


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 03:04 PM

Forgive me, friends and neighbors, for conflating wars, here.

But I have just stopped to think of someone whose lyrics turn up,
now and again, on the Mudcat forum.
He was a World War II veteran, and his name was Michael Flanders.
You know him from Flanders and Swann.

Of course, the long shadow of the Great War loomed large,
it could not have done otherwise,
during Flanders's childhood and upbringing.
Regardless of his modest origins, he made it to Oxford
where he flourished in drama.
When the second War broke out, he was an able-bodied seaman.

He could not have foreseen how his life would be changed.
And Flanders was not one to complain, that I am aware of,
but he certainly had something to complain about.
I won't take it further off track on this thread,
some of you know what he survived and how he adapted.

What empathy he must have had for the Great War casualties and survivors.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 03:13 PM

Thanks for that.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: JHW
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:04 PM

I saw this twice at the cinema full size screen, second time with the Peter Jackson BFI interview.
I also was much saddened by "No ex-servicemen required" when 'too few' returned.
In the interview PJ said how very many more hours of archive film (than used) were returned restored to the IWM. Worldwide similar tecniques could be used to make stores of archive film on any topic more accessible.


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Subject: RE: Review: Peter Jackson They shall not grow old
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:38 PM

I used to be a BFI member years ago. Full size at the cinema must have been amazing. I would love to see some other topics covered by the restorers. The list would be endless, but the money would not be unfortunately.


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