A repository for your music pictures...

Subject: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:43 AM

If you are like me, over a number of years of attending great music events I have on occasion taken my camera and used it to make some musical images that please me. For years (40+ in my case) I have selected the best ones and placed them in albums which sit in a cupboard (pre-digital days) or on my computer (nowadays) where they reside, mostly unseen and unknown to others... and if (deities forbidding) something were to happen to me tomorrow, they would most probably be disposed of to the nearest rubbish facility...

More recently, I looked through Wikipedia at pages on artists I had some admiration for and was surprised to find that a non-trivial component had no pictures of the artist(s) concerned. The reason for this, it turns out, that although good pictures may be around, they are not in a form that Wikipedia can use - basically they have to be freely reproducible by anyone, not copyrighted, and not restricted to just non commercial use. (For example a " Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike" license, which means that anyone can do what they like with the image, but they have to maintain attribution to the original creator).

I realised that I had images in my holdings that could fill some of these gaps and at the same time, I could ensure some degree of longevity for my images which would otherwise almost certainly be lost some time down the track. I also figured that "giving away" reproduction rights was no big deal in my case, since I had no plans ever to commercialise them.

So to cut to the chase, I decided that uploading a selection of my images to Wikimedia Commons (which serves as the "feeder" repository for Wikipedia content) would serve several different purposes at the same time: first, provide some useful content that could be incorporated into relevant Wikipedia articles; second, ensure the future preservation of those images at no cost or ongoing effort to me; and third, provide a degree of exposure of those images to others who might enjoy or value seeing them, not only now but in a future that we perhaps cannot even envisage (think of the value now of historic images from 100 or even 50 years ago).

So this is my experience - no particular down side in the 3 years or so that I have embarked on this - and I would be happy if I can persuade others to do the same if interested, and let some more music pictures loose into the world to see what happens. I know they are out there! - or, get reactions from other mudcatters on the above.

As I mentioned in a related thread yesterday, I maintain an index to images I have uploaded in the form of my Wikipedia user page (something which comes with contributing edits or new pages to Wikipedia), which you can visit here if interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#Music_related_2

Any comments or other experiences welcome...

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:06 AM

What will happen is that they will be harvested by Google images and used and reused by every man and his dog without any acknowledgement at all.

Businesses like Last.fm harvest music pictures wholesale and will never ever respect your copyright.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:46 AM

I think it's a great idea Tony.
If I had any I'd be happier for them to be 'out there' than in a draw which my executors will tip into a skip.

It'd be interesting to know how £much anyone had ever made from selling the photo of a folk singer.

There's a fairly interesting article here for anyone planning to copyright and sell their photos
https://medium.com/photography-secrets/how-much-should-you-charge-for-a-photograph-27f5ca0c965f

Presumably there is a date recorded by wiki which could be found by anyone interested in finding the original photographer.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:49 AM

Hi Peter (RE message above),

A few points in response - first, I am not a pro photographer and view my images as of some minor cultural but no commercial value - they are really little more than snapshots, most of not tremendously high resolution, of interest to a pretty boutique, and cash poor, market... if I were trying to sell my pictures for a living things would obviously be different (and they would not be of folk singers :) )

Second, Google images is your friend! It shows the world where the original of your image is and who has copied it, either with or without authorization, and with or without credit.

Third, Wikipedia is the most cited site in the world (at or near the top in web results for any search) and is scrupulous about crediting the sources of its images. Click on the image and the details are all there, including the date of original upload, the creator, and licence conditions if any, all good for legal purposes if ever needed.

Letting an image into the world without constraints is to my mind a bit like writing a song. If you let others hear it, if it is any good it can take on a life of its own and others might sing it. Some may lose sight of the source (accidentally or deliberately) but hey, there are people - many on this forum - who enjoy chasing such things down. I honestly think that finding the true source of an image for credit purposes is a no brainer these days with this interweb thingy.

And if someone can get rich re-selling my 30-40 images of a few folkies, that are already available for free to anyone who wants them, then I wish them good luck.

Just my 2 cents worth of course.

Best - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:51 AM

Depends on the photographer and what is being sold. I have seen prints by wellknown photographers of traditional musicians go at a premium in the collectors market

https://www.mutualart.com/Artwork/2-Works-Fiddler-s-light--donegal---Portr/FFCEE3F8D5C5FC9B

and digital prints at

http://www.christymcnamara.com/product/paddy-killoughery/


Licensing can vary, depending again on photographer, subject and use.

Years ago I supplied a series of photographs of traditional musicians who had died during the year, for use at a televised award ceremony. The producer asked for an invoice for their books, the broadcaster demanded that, but never paid. Go figure.

But putting photos online is like giving away your work. Once it's online people think it's free for all, including large professional organisations.

I must say, it's off-putting but I rarely put a snap online without obnoxious watermarks these days. I prefer to make photos available through the county library (although Clare Libraries' photo server is now down due to a technical problem, there are a few thousand there) or ITMA.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 11:05 AM

Hi Peter,

That's fine, I think we are talking about different markets, as well as quality of work. I am really aiming my comments at the "happy snapper" or perhaps enthusiastic amateur who may nevertheless have a few interesting shots in the drawer worth sharing, but who does not have pretensions to particular photographic excellence (speaking for myself at least).

Even if the above does not apply, one can release low resolution copies of images free to the web and keep back the high resolution versions for commercial use if that is a preferred option.

But your viewpoint is certainly valid for someone who takes a lot of care over their work and what happens to it.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 11:29 AM

I have no illusions of photographic grandeur myself but I simply hate it when you leave even a low res copy of something on the net it will inevitably get hijacked by people and organisations who have no business doing so. Bitten a few times too often I suppose.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:59 PM

Tony - AWSOME photos.

Thank you for contributing to the spirit of our world.

Freely, freely, you have received,
And, freely, freely, you give.

Your time and talents are appreciated.

And you are one heck of fine photographer.

Thank you again. I am personally inspired.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

There are lots of parables and fables about ....

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:42 PM

Thanks Gargoyle! I see it as musical karma - put stuff out there and who knows what may happen in the future...

I was thinking that none of my photos had ever made it to published status but then remembered I was wrong - 5 of them were used on the cover of "Crows", Dingle's DIN 317, 1981, as shown here:

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/crows__gbr_/crows.p/

I should probably scan the originals and add them to my wikimedia/wikipedia offerings.

"Crows" included the late Ralph Jordan on guitar and concertina, who will be remembered for his past contributions to mudcat (as "Ralphie"). A lovely guy and it will be a privilege to upload his picture (actually I probably have more than one) to posterity.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 04:24 PM

Tony
I empathise totally with what you have done. The ethos of this very forum as I see it is sharing, mostly information yes, freely and without commercial interest. The very idea of Wikipedia is that of sharing, though looking at the bumf I get from them it seems to be a precarious existence. I do make a small donation now and then.

In my area (Hull) we have gathered together all of our records, paperwork, recordings, photos etc. and persuaded the local History centre to set up an archive for us. Eventually we hope to set up a website for it. If we weren't doing this I would happily follow your example.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:30 PM

Tony,I am overwhelmed with you example. (btw, Steve...the University of Hull funds a department chair for the study of pornography...I have vacationed with his brother)

Tony,your ability to collect and share ... parallels Dick and Susan's original idea of The Digital Tradition and Max's passion.

The tagging of your photos is the most valuable, added asset.
A decade old book, "Abient Findability" is a must read for librarians.
Knowledge and data, and, text, and images are useless, unless they can be accessed.

As a valued mentor said, "The subject is the elephant...however...the need is to focus on the left rear, littlest toe, of the elephant."


An abundance of photo/musical contributions to the "public domain" will surely follow, your example.

Thank You again.
Perma Thread Possibility?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle



small>Thank you, Dick, Susan, Max, and Joe, and Collins, and Samuels, and Lighter....and several score more.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:26 PM

Peter, thanks for the links.

And I see you do indeed have some great photographs and if they were mine I'd hope that someone would be prepared to pay to use them commercially.

The watermark seems a good way to at least have the visual information out there without someone exploiting you.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Peter+Laban&prmd=niv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRn6WdteTeAhWkJsAKHSK_B9cQ_AUIEygC&biw=800&bih=1280

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:12 AM

I probably sound like a raving lunatic when I go on about this, sorry about that but I feel strongly about certain things.

I don't know Freddy, that Google image search makes my point, some photos included there (and many are not mine at all) are ones I put online as part of forum discussions, left online perhaps for a week, untagged, anonymous. They still turn up long after I have taken them down from the hosting site, when searched under my name.

It's a shame the Clare library site is down, there are a few I like there.

There are a few decent ones at https://www.richesofclare.com/gallery-riches-2018 as well, covering a series of free concerts earlier this year.

I'd really love to be able to just leave things I like online but I have mostly stopped because of the blatant robbing and misuse. Anyhow, I'll go away now and say no more.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:51 AM

Hey Peter, just to say that I totally respect your preference to decide whether to release your photos into the public domain or not; they are your pictures and you control their distribution options. I can't comment on the Google images search issue in your case.

On the other hand, as foreshadowed above, I've had another dip into my archive and digitised some pictures of members of "Crows" from 1980 and 1983, also Les Barker (and Mrs Ackroyd) and the New Victory Band (or maybe they are Muckram Wakes, not sure) from 1980, plus a rather distant shot of the Albions from 1983, which can be seen via the link previously given (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#Music_related_2). Interestingly, Wikipedia has currently no (zero) images of the Albion Band or the New Victory Band, and only a very recent pic of Les Barker (nothing from his "heyday" years), while Crows do not presently have an article. I may rectify some of these omissions in a little while... Of course some better pictures would be appreciated, especially of the Albions since they ave been through such a huge number of lineup changes.

Best - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:04 AM

Thanks for sharing those tremendous images Tony!

I've really enjoyed browsing your wonderful collection and must admit to some feelings of envy that you were present on so many occasions! Far too good to be kept in a private album in some drawer.

C-flat

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:13 PM

Thanks C-flat, I am enjoying sharing them. The cupboard is not bare yet but a lot of the remainder are local/part-time performers only (none the worse for that of course) that would not be of more general interest outside of their immediate circle, and/or the images do not meet a self-imposed minimum standard of photographic quality...

It is a nice exercise in revisiting events in my memory as well. Of course for every gig/concert that I brought a camera there were probably 10 or 20 (or more) that I did not, especially in the early days. Thankfully others have taken shots of many performers as well, and even if they are not released under an open licence, they can be found in many books and magazine records.

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 07:46 PM

For the record, I've just finished uploading a few more images, visible in slidehow format from the link below onwards if you are interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#/media/File:The_Albion_Band,_outdoor_concert_at_Holland_House,_London,_summer_1983_(daylight).jpg

If you want to see them all you can start at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#/media/File:Ian_Date,_guitarist_on_stage_at_Bangalow,_NSW,_November_2015.jpg

and click through them.

Hoping that they will be enjoyable to mudcatters and others in the future,

Best - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 11:27 PM

Your identification notes are outstanding.

Do you have any suggestion on how to "batch-file" strip the digital meta-data from scans, and modern digital images?

Better yet, to re-write the and replace.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 12:09 AM

Hi Gargoyle,

No, I have never looked into this. However if you google (for example) "batch replace exif data", you will probably find something that will do it.

Normally I manipulate my files a little in a small editing program (Paint Shop Pro, had it for years and still does most of what I need) and save under a new filename before uploading to wherever. I am not sure whether this maintains the old image data or not, and if not, whether it inserts new values; others may know...

I did have access to Photoshop some years back and seem to recall it had quite extensive batch file-manipulating options such as changing names etc., but don't know about the metadata side of things, sorry.

Best - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Nov 18 - 02:19 AM

GUEST,.gargoyle wrote: how to "batch-file" strip the digital meta-data from scans, and modern digital images

I use imagemagick to do that:
https://imagemagick.org/script/convert.php
-strip removes metadata

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 25 Nov 18 - 03:51 PM

A few more images uploaded now - though the pace is beginning to slow! Links as given around 4-5 messages above...

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Nov 18 - 04:27 PM

Tony - you are a remarkable photographer.

The right place at the right time...it is pure rhetoric.


Negative scans, B&W print scans?

...............


DaveRo


THANK YOU

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 02:06 PM

Hi Gargoyle (DaveRo), thanks again for your kind comments.

My main regret is that I did not take more pictures, and of more events that I attended, also not having sufficient interest to purchase a better camera in the early days (a time machine would be nice!). However as a poor student, even film/processing was comparatively expensive, at least until I started doing my own black-and-white enlargements (luckily I had access to free darkroom facilities at my place of study, just had to pay for my own paper, plus do it out-of-hours...).

My main interest was listening to the music and enjoying the experience, the odd photo was just a memento (not like today when everyone is a photographer/filmographer and very few events go unrecorded...) Of course I would not have been the only attendee with a camera, especially at festivals where the majority of these shots were taking (much better light than in a gloomy folk club, where I almost never photographed anything), so part of my initial entreaty was to see if more images might be forthcoming from others :)

Since you asked, the images I have put up (apart from recent digital ones) are just scanned from prints in my album, not the negatives (or transparencies in a few cases). The colour ones are without exception just machine prints as received back from the chemist, most quite small i.e. 5x3 inches so would have lost a little detail there, and there would be some additional detail on the negatives, although I do not really have the urge to try to scan these (maybe could revisit for a few special cases though...)

Now if only I had been a serious photographer, I could have ended up with a gallery like this (drool): Photographs by Brian Shuel on Getty Images. But then again, I probably would not be giving them away...

Best - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 03:20 PM

Actually in the early days (say 1973 onwards) I was more interested in making sound recordings than taking photos - however on a pretty low-fi portable cassette recorder, most probably unlistenable today, though I may dig some out and see :)

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 04:04 PM

Tony - I like your photos better than Brian's, by far.

His are the "stardard" promotional head-shots etc.

Your's on the other hand have spontanity, movement, and warmth.

Well done, and thank you again.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 04:13 PM

With respect, I have to disagree RE the quality and historical interest of Brian Shuel's shots, they are generally superb both technically and artistically and also represent a time before I and persons of my age were really involved with folk music and so are of considerable historic value. So, in a league quite a bit above my own, but them's the breaks... All good.

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 01:41 AM

OK, I've uploaded another 30 or so shots from various venues in the UK (to 1986), Australia and the Netherlands; check the "Tony 1212" links given above if you would like to see them.

Actually I am short of person or group names for a few of them, if anyone can assist I will add relevant information to the files on Wikimedia Commons. The ones I am thinking of are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#/media/File:Mark_O%27Connor,_Cambridge_1985.jpg (the second mandolin player)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#/media/File:Chestnuts_Folk_Day_1985-1.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#/media/File:Chestnuts_Folk_Day_1985-2.jpg

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 09:42 AM

Hi Tony - I have a couple of photos of a young guitarist called Tony Rees somewhere!

Could the second mandolin player be a rather young Mike Marshall?

I've been resisting joining in on this thread for some time but I also have a collection of "old folkie" b&w negs (never printed) from back in the 70s which are on my to-do list to copy.

We spent many a happy hour back in those days push processing film after sessions at the local folk club and, to be honest, it's so long ago that I can't remember who's on them.

I also remember photographing a "Blues Legends" concert, some friends dragged me along to, back in those days and, as I've never really been into blues, I would have no idea who the subjects are. Assuming you haven't changed email address lately, I'll see if I can flirt some of the images over to you in case you recognise any of them.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 10:14 AM

Great photos! That flutist playing for dancers looks mighty familiar.

Sorry, but I've spotted a typo. It's 'Porchester Hall', not 'Portchester'.


Porchester Hal

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 01:52 PM

Hi Ray and Modette, thanks for chiming in...

Ray, from my recollection the three Americans on tour (Keith, Rooney and O'Connor) played with a local rhythm section (2nd mandolin and bass). I remember thinking the second mandolinist was very good but not American - so still waiting... The BBC broadcast around 20 mins of their set which I have on my shelf, great stuff with Mark O'Connor on absolutely the top of his form - his fiddling on "Footprints in the Snow" is sublime. (I think I recorded it off Australian radio though!)

I too have a number of photos of a young(er) Tony Rees playing guitar but am not about to post them!

Modette/others, someone must know about the dancers and accompanists, we will see... and thanks for spotting the typo, I have fixed it on the 5 original photos and the change will propagate through the system. Actually I had never heard of Porchester Hall before I went there in '85, and never heard of it again until now; nowadays with Google images and Wikipedia it all comes back!

I could also do with names for the lineup of Paddington's Pandemonic Express shown as well - I know Sam Stephens, Ralph Jordan, Caroline Frost (last 2 sadly no longer with us); I think one of the others is Dan Quinn (?next to Ralph); I have half an idea the drummer was Sue Evans-Taylor? From another thread the other melodion player is probably Trevor Bennett, perhaps the brass player is Nigel Carter? Since I did not know those folk or the rest of the band personally, I need others' assistance.

Best - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 05:17 PM

I remember Bill Keith touring with Jim Rooney and, on another occasion, Peter Rowan but I don’t remember Mark o’Connor ever performing in the northern reaches of the UK.

I’ll post a copy of the photo’ on Mandolin Cafe in the morning - somebody there will know; unless it is indeed some obscure Brit. I can visualise my old negative file but not exactly where it might be - I’ll have another look for that as well.

I don’t see why the repository shouldn’t include such luminaries as yourself!

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 05:22 PM

Again!

Just had a look at the next photo in the series. Is that Nick Baraclough on bass? That might suggest that the mystery mandolin player was a member of Telephone Bill .... Looks familiar but I can’t remember his name. I’ll dig out their records.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 08:36 PM

G'day Ray,

Well, the bass player could be Nick Barraclough from the appearance. Pretty sure the mandolin player is none of the Telephone Bill members, though - that would be Gerry Hale or Chris Cox, I don't think it is either of them. We need someone who knows that tour!

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 01:23 AM

It's definitely Nick - the moustache is exactly the same as his photo on "Pretty Slick - Hough?" and it's definitely not Gerry or Chris.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 04:54 PM

Thanks to some enthusiastic discussion over on facebook, it appears certain that the Irish dancers pictured were from the northern academy called Clann na nGael. The musicians were possible the Knight brothers but still awaiting confirmation. The other band pictured at the Chestnuts folk day '95 have been ID's as the band for the dance side "Paddington's Pandemonic Express", somewhat disguised by relevant make-up. i should have remembered the latter of course as I know/knew several members, I blame early onset dementia... also have names now for the various Paddingtons band members in some of the other shots, thanks to all who responded. Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 05:19 PM

Returning to some issues touched on in my original post, a distinction that I did not initially appreciate, but no do, is that between the criteria for creating an article on Wikipedia, and uploading an image to Wikimedia Commons (where Wikipedia is just one of their potential downstream uses). In the present context (e.g. folk music artists), Wikipedia has a "notability" criterion which means that the person/artist/act must have been recognised by third parties as being "notable" in some way, such as magazine coverage, music release on a recognised label, etc. etc.

For Wikimedia Commons, however, the criterion is simply "useful for educational purposes" which is much more in the eye of the uploader. This is why I think it is valuable to use this site to document a number of the more "minor" and/or transient folk related persons and events on the basis that in future years, *someone* may find it of cultural value - while still excluding the "purely personal interest" (parties, friends, self, breakfast) that clutter up so many other photo sharing sites of a social nature.

In other words, Wikimedia Commons sits somewhere in the middle of a continuum between "significant content" and complete rubbish, and that suits me and my present purposes just fine. It also fulfils several other important criteria in my mind, including (hopefully) persistence (since there are presently 50 million images there and rising, someone will care about maintaining the archive into the future) and discoverability (it is one of the big players in the image hosting world, plus its search function works well), as well as being a not-for-profit / foundation backed operation, unlike e.g. Facebook, Google photos, Flickr and the like.

Just a few random musings from someone glad to be able to shift the burden of ongoing maintenance of my files to someone else, while retaining the facility to edit captions in real time as needed, discuss images further via a "discussion" function, etc. I have no doubt there are other ways to do this too but it seems a good solution for me, both in theory and from my experience to date.

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 07:28 PM

Colm Keating has some fabulous contemporary shots(though he started 1978 I don't see any on the website)

Among my many other interests is Music and though I don't play any instrument I love listening to Irish Trad and Folk Music, which also offers me lots of photographic opportunities, in pubs, fleadh's and festivals...I get bored if I don't have something to do. If publicans switched on a few more lights I'd be a happy man - I'm all for atmosphere in a pub but some more light would be nice! 

Its hard to beat a live trad music session, played in good company, and served with cold beer...provided you're not driving of course...don't want the ethical police complaining!

https://www.colmkeatingphotography.com/gallery_403966.html

& more on Facebook
https://m.facebook.com/colm.keating.14/photos?lst=1230456348%3A100002421860622%3A1543881402

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 03:45 AM

Colm Keating always has lovely moments.

Jim Maginn's Irish music photographs are superb. There's a book and (there used to be a website, diddlydee, I seem to remember). Several others working the same field, Nutan, Tony Kearns, Christy McNamara among others. Liam McNulty, for example, quietly worked at the pipers for years, see ITMA for his work.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 04:27 AM

I am somewhat apprehensive about putting photographs up these days.

About ten years ago I put several up here on the cat and sadly there was a mischievous member who harvested them to create fake Facebook profiles of myself, my wife and several members I had met on my travels.

I requested the removal of all the photographs I had posted and locked all photographs on my social media.

Whoever he or she was they were a member of this forum and also a friend on the Mudcat Facebook group as some photographs were taken from that site also.

Personal photographic memories should remain exactly that, Personal.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 05:06 AM

If you put photos on Facebook you grant Facebook the right to license them for further use elsewhere. They're no longer yours and certainly no longer private. This is also the case on other sites, including photo hosting sites.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 05:16 AM

Hi Guest above,

Your concerns / past experiences are noted but should not deflect from the main thrust of this thread which is on how best to share images of cultural value, taken of performers in public places in the main, where (for a weird reason) copyright of the images is assigned to the photographer and not the person in them (for videos and audio recordings the opposite applies). Such images already exist - a lot more than just the subset being discussed here, which are those taken by mudcat members - and if persons wanted to use them for nefarious purposes, well that horse has already bolted I am sure. However it should not affect consideration of the bigger issue, which (in my case at least) is that I would like my images to persist and be potentially useful to others rather than go to the tip on my demise...

One could argue that the performers' privacy is being infringed by taking their photographs at live gigs but copyright law does not see it that way, at least in most venues (unless photography is banned by the management). Also if you think back to previous generations of performers in any genre, they are often made most memorable via images taken of them in performance, complementing other media such as sound recordings and concert footage.

Just my 2 cents worth of course,

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:13 AM

With the photoserver at Clare Library still down I just thought of the obvious: access it through the Wayback machine.

I have a fair number of snaps archived in the library's photo collection :

Laban Collection of Traditional music images @ Clare County Library


and these, a gallery I put up some fifteen years or more ago, seem to be still accessible :

Gallery @ Concertina.net

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:19 AM

OK, checking further it turns out the Wayback machine hasn't archived beyond the thumbnails . Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 03:49 PM

Great photos Peter! Now all that is needed is for the Clare County Library to fix their server issue...

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:09 PM

And interesting, Peter, that despite living 12,000 kms apart we still have one subject in common (the migratory Dickie Deegan, pictured both in Hobart and in Miltown Malbay!)...

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:10 PM

Sorry, it is spelled Dicky. I knew him as Richard! - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 04:52 AM

A few more images uploaded (and some new ones taken) in the 12+ months since my last post on this thread - see here for full set at this time (or any other...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#Music_related_2

- Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 24 Jan 24 - 11:06 PM

Just bumping this thread almost 4 years after my last post to it - having uploaded a few more pictures in the mean time... currently sitting at just over 200 music-themed photos (folk and related genres) uploaded, plus another 100+ on other subjects. Wikipedia link as via my user page still as given above; clickable images go to their "hosted" (real) location on Wikimedia Commons).

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 27 Jan 24 - 12:27 PM

For reference - new photos uploaded since Feb 2020 include Mark Robson (Australia/UK), Russell Hibbs (Australia), Jyotsna LaTrobe and friends (New Zealand/Australia), Dan Kellaway (luthier - Australia), Keith Calton (instrument case manufacturer - UK), The Kipper Family (UK), Nic Jones (UK), Allan Taylor (UK), Kieran Halpin and Tom McConville (UK), Frances Gilvray & Mick Burke with band (UK), Bob Greenwood (UK), Kathryn Tickell (UK), Dave Swarbrick (UK) (twice), Jez Lowe and the Bad Pennies (UK), Judy Dinning (UK), Robin Dransfield (UK), Rosie Hardman (UK), The Matthews Brothers with Tony Wilson and Mick Doonan (UK), and Saffron Summerfield (UK). In case anyone is interested! All are freely available for re-use, just with appropriate credit. Some are not the last word in resolution, but could possibly be improved by re-scanning the original negatives if desired.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Jan 24 - 02:24 PM

is this the latest, or do you still have lots left in the cupboard/hard drive?

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 24 - 04:27 PM

Kieran Halpin's from Drogheda, not the UK.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 27 Jan 24 - 04:30 PM

Hi Sandra,

I do have more in the back catalogue... but they are more like friends/local artists without much "notability" or general interest (myself included!), and/or multiple shots of which I have put the better ones up already, or technically/artistically not all that good. However I do occasionally do a return pass over my holdings to see if anything I previously passed over in fact merits a revisit... and/or grab a still frame from a video recording that I had kinda forgotten about (lots of those on the shelf, most revisited for digitisation but by no means all). So this is the main body of material I currently figure is good enough to be "out there", but it might be expanded slightly in the future...

Also if I go to any new performances I might take new images as well.

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 27 Jan 24 - 04:35 PM

> From: GUEST
> Date: 27 Jan 24 - 04:27 PM
> Kieran Halpin's from Drogheda, not the UK.

Thanks guest! I guess I just added the tag "UK folk duo" on the Wikimedia upload because that is where I encountered him/them (with Tom McConville, and I never gave it further thought. I will adjust the caption there.

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 04:05 AM

Enjoyed going through those photos, Tony. I can confirm that the musicians playing for the "Clann-na-Gael" dancers were brothers Pat and Andrew Knight. Andrew departed from us a few years ago, last I heard of Pat he was living on the Isle of Man. Funny how you remember some things. I have a publicity sheet somewhere of "Clann-na-Gael". I think the dancer on the right was the group leader, and her first name was Barbara - could be wrong though.
Many thanks.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Jan 24 - 02:27 PM

Lang Johnnie More wrote:
>I think the dancer on the right was the group leader, and her first name was Barbara - could be wrong though.

Yes - Barbara Slater on right, who supplied me with the other info a while back - cannot remember the medium now though (email, Facebook or other...)

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 17 Feb 24 - 12:08 AM

Hi Sandra, all - OK, I found a few more... Palangi (Australian Christian/world music group), Dave Peabody with Magpie (U.S. folk duo), The Easy Club (Scotland - listening to them as I write!!), Wizz Jones (UK), Derek Brimstone (UK), David O'Connor (Australia) - in case of interest! Palangi and David O'Connor are still frames off videos, currently available only in my home collection unfortunately, so not the highest quality, but maybe still worth "archiving". Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 17 Feb 24 - 03:28 AM

& when your music archives are all archived, what then?

back to scientific stuff, or maybe going to lots of concerts to build up a new archive?

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 17 Feb 24 - 04:23 PM

Sandra: all of the above I guess, thanks for asking! Actually not all of my music stuff will be archived, since audio and video copyrights rest with the performers and composers, not with the taper, so unless relevant permissions are obtained, some of that stuff remains dormant, at least for now. Then of course, one day we will all be gone, hopefully leaving something accessible for those that come after :)

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 05:53 AM

we look forward to future contributions

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 06:04 AM

The copyright of the music resides with the artists/writers but you created the videos and recordings so you have the rights over those.
Isn't that how it is?

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 12:56 PM

Hi Peter,

Photos of an artist in performance are the copyright/ownership of the photographer, not the artist, so the situation is simple.

Performance recordings (audio and/or video) are subject to different copyrights as well, most notably those of the composer of the material - who may well have assigned it to their publisher- (unless it is public domain), the performer/s of the material, and possibly the arrangers as well (not sure about that). For commercial use permissions need to be obtained, and normally money would change hands. For non-commercial use e.g. sharing via youtube, the same still applies, although youtube seems to have negotiated some "back door arrangements" whereby the content can remain online so long as it is not monetised (alternatively they can take it down). That is the legal situation at the present time as I understand it; different countries have different laws but I think in general they have the same principles.

So if I record my mate singing a Michael Jackson (or maybe Ralph McTell) song and put it on youtube, even if my mate is happy with that, Jackson/McTell's publishers might come after me either for money or with a Take Down notice. Or they might let it go through to the keeper. The fact that I made the recording is probably the least significant portion of the equation; however again, if someone later reproduced it without my permission, I might have rights, unless I have relinquished them of course.

I do have a few "historic" recordings of bands/artists in concert from 30-40 years ago that I have put on line as "cultural artifacts" but am aware that the artists concerned might request their removal, which I would then have to comply with. But normally I do request permission. In these cases the default is that the artist has written their own material (or it is trad/public domain) so no other composers/music publishers are involved, however as you can see from the above there are still potentially issues e.g. a record company might complain...

Whether this will continue to be an issue indefinitely I cannot say (I guess everything might enter public domain eventually after the passage of XX years, or re-use laws might change)...

So yes, sharing/publicly depositing photos is easy (the photographer is in control), audio and video much less so... Regards Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Feb 24 - 07:03 AM

From (fading) memory, a performance of a song for legal purposes has four parts:

* The words, which can be copyrighted;
* The melody, which can be copyrighted (sometimes by a different entity);
* The chord sequence, which cannot be copyrighted;
* The performance, which attracts performance rights.

(For a recording, there's also "mechanical" rights.)

Jazz musicians often made use of the third clause to produce something new(er) with fresh improvisations on top, without attracting copyright fees by using the original melody. I remember hearing one recording* where they intended to do just that, but accidentally drift into playing said melody, at which the producer starts calling out "Hey, hey"; then they stop, and start again as intended.

* Bonus marks for naming the offending band, and the original tune.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 19 Feb 24 - 01:18 PM

Maybe also the arrangement, as per "trad arr." - for example possibly Bert Jansch's guitar part for "Blackwaterside", subsequently re-used by Led Zeppelin's "Black Mountain Side" - not sure whether there was ever any legal claim there, or whether any such might have succeeded. Just sayin, as I think "trad. arr." may give the "arranger" some royalties as well (or perhaps not!).

- Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 19 Feb 24 - 01:30 PM

Bottom line, quote from QUT Copyright Guide | Recording live performances: "When you make a video or sound recording of a performance of a work, you are reproducing the work. This particular form of reproduction is called a 'mechanical reproduction' of the work and requires permission from the copyright owner."

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 19 Feb 24 - 01:32 PM

I missed this bit (the site is in Australia, but I think the principle applies generally): "Australian law also gives protection to performers whose performances are captured in film or sound recording. If you are recording a performance, it is necessary to obtain permission from the performers, whether students, staff, or guest artists."

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 28 Feb 24 - 01:19 PM

OK, a few more uploads: Frances Gilvray & Mick Burke, Mr Gladstone's Bag (John Watcham & Mike Bingham Clifton), and Telephone Bill + The Smooth Operators (another shot), from Norwich and Cambridge Festivals, 1977... but getting to the end of the cupboard now - go to Gilvray & Burke Cambridge 1977 and click right (or left) if interested...

Frances & Mick (aka Fran and Mike these days) are still active on the UK folk-blues scene, not sure about the other parties involved!!

Regards Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Mar 24 - 01:32 PM

Out of interest... just noticed while uploading an image:

Wiki Loves Folklore 2024

Perhaps they have been reading this mudcat thread (only joking).

I did check, and while images of "folk festivals, folk dances, folk music, folk activities, folk games, folk cuisine, folk wear, folklore, and tradition, including ballads, folktales, fairy tales, legends, traditional song and dance, folk plays, games, seasonal events, calendar customs, folk arts, folk religion, mythology etc." are all in scope, I think most will be more colourful, and full of action, than mine...

Nevertheless I am still going back through my files and adding the odd one previously overlooked - latest is here (Kathryn Tickell in 1985, a second image). If you click on "more details" it takes you out to Wikimedia Commons where the image actually resides, or use the back arrow at the left hand side to see other images I have uploaded to date. I have finally figured out a way to re-digitise some of my old negatives at home as well, which means that I can improve the quality (overwrite with better copies) of some previous uploads, as time is available...

If this thread reads unduly like self promotion, I apologise! My main interest is in getting a subset of the images I have taken over the years, out into the public domain for others' interest and potential re-use (and to be archived somewhere without myself needing to be in the loop for ever), and pointing out its potential value for other folk to adopt as a mechanism if interested - I see *loads* of pictures around the net in the form of "here is a nice picture I have taken", but not that many (in the present context) uploaded to public repositories such as this one. (rant over...)

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Mar 24 - 05:29 PM

not a rant, just sharing of info!

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Mar 24 - 06:16 PM

It has always been my position that ANYTHING posted to the net becomes "public domain."

The history of "Chilling Effects" now "Lumina" (check wiki of course) has the wonderful twisted fate of Pandora's Box and trying to cling to a fist full of sand.

For current lyrics it was my #1 source.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Tony - you should be teaching a university, journalism course ... based on your "Ambient Findability" alone.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Mar 24 - 06:46 PM

Hi Sandra and Gargoyle...

A couple of things come to mind since my previous post...

1: Things on the internet are not as persistent as we might like to think (depends on server maintenance, fees to pay and many other things). So, it makes sense to go with the "big guys" who have a vested interest in keeping content on line, with minimal down time... just today I saw a report regarding scientific publications with DOIs (Digital Object Identifiers, that are intended to be permanent links to "something") saying (among other things):

"“Many people have the blind assumption that if you have a DOI, it’s there forever,” says Mikael Laakso, who studies scholarly publishing at the Hanken School of Economics in Helsinki. “But that doesn’t mean that the link will always work.” In 2021, Laakso and his colleagues reported2 that more than 170 open-access journals had disappeared from the Internet between 2000 and 2019."

and

"“Everybody thinks of the immediate gains they might get from having a paper out somewhere, but we really should be thinking about the long-term sustainability of the research ecosystem,” Eve says. “After you’ve been dead for 100 years, are people going to be able to get access to the things you’ve worked on?”"

(Full news article at More than 2 million research papers have disappeared from the Internet)

Also - some folks might be interested to know that Sandra (as per post/s above) has already uploaded some of her photos to Wikimedia Commons, as suggested at the start of this thread - you can find her list here .

Onwards and upwards, and thanks for the comments - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Mar 24 - 06:54 PM

PS you can get Wikimedia Commons to do a similar listing for my uploads - try this link. However please note that (1) not all my uploads are music related (I have a few other interests as well!), and (2) a (very) small number are not my originals, but either public domain sources, or files previously uploaded by others that are available for additional modification for minor improvements etc.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 07 Mar 24 - 10:48 PM

OK, a few new uploads (!)...

John Leonard & John Squire - Norwich Festival '81

Shirley & Dolly Collins, Norwich Festival '78

Folk supergroup: John & Sue Kirkpatrick with Geoff & Penny Harris, Norwich '77

Martin Simpson in 1977, Leeds University FC, 2 images here and here

Fred Wedlock with Chris Newman, Norwich '78

Shropshire Bedlams (incl. John Kirkpatrick), Towersey 1980

Hope you enjoy... and yes, there are a few more to come :)

Regards to all - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 08 Mar 24 - 04:28 AM

Hi Tony, interesting back story on the guitar Chris Newman is playing.

I remember it well from back in the day but it’s actually been for sale for several years Here

If anyone wants to hear it, listen to the intro to Fred Wedlock’s “hit”; The Oldest swinger in Town.

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 08 Mar 24 - 01:24 PM

Thanks, Ray! I also saw that guitar early on, in Chris' hands, and always thought it sounded really good. I took a separate "specially posed" pic of Chris holding the guitar at Norwich as well, sitting on a bank outside a Uni building. Unfortunately my camera at the time was not an SLR and when the photo was developed, I found I had the strap hanging down in front of the lens, almost completely obscuring Chris, though not the guitar!! So not a shot worth reviving, unfortunately...

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 10 Mar 24 - 04:27 AM

OK, next batch now uploaded...

Dave Speight (UK blues artist), Leeds, 1978

Derek Brimstone is introduced by John the Fish, Norwich 1981

Derek Brimstone, Norwich 1981 (detail of above)

John the Fish, Norwich 1981 (detail of above)

Allan Taylor with Paul Metsers, Norwich 1981

Dave Peabody jams with Magpie (U.S. folk duo), Norwich 1981

Comments, reminiscences all welcome!

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 24 - 06:05 AM

Any pictures of the New Mexborouch Concertina Quartet, or any duo with Richard Grainger

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 10 Mar 24 - 06:45 AM

Sorry Dick, no and no. I did once share a house with Dave Townsend if that is anywhere near the right direction...

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 10 Mar 24 - 01:49 PM

Just as a follow on, your post above (Dick) might prompt someone else to come forward who does have such photos (e.g. of the New Mexborough Concertina Quartet in action) and is prepared to share them by some means... I see from a separate thread that your quartet was playing clubs and festivals between 1984 and 1987, so I would wager that a few photos by attendees might well exist. Unfortunately I was never one of them; also I relocated to Australia by early '86 so my potential for overlap was cut short by that means.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 Mar 24 - 02:58 PM

Dick,
I should ask Peter Trimming if he ever took any of you as he was getting into photography more at the time that you were performing as the quartet.
It might be a false lead but you never know.

Robin

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 02:24 AM

Well, another batch of images seems to escaped the archive:

Wizz Jones at Norwich 1981 (a second, probably better shot)

Crows (Mick Ryan, James Patterson, Ralph Jordan, Dave Bordewey), London 1983

Iona (Gordon Tyrrall, George Ormiston, Dave Bulmer), Leeds Festival 1982

Stan Gordon with Diz Disley and Dave Hatfield, Essex Festival 1981

Stan Gordon 1981 (another image)

Enjoy, comments / feedback very welcome...

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 02:36 PM

Continuing the trawl through the previously unprinted pictures... for your possible interest and enjoyment:

At the 1982 Leeds Folk Festival:

Clannad on stage - full view

Clannad on stage - detail

Clannad on stage - different shot

Clannad on stage - Máire Brennan

Elsewhere:

Albion Band 1983, Holland House - another image (with the Albionettes)

Robin & Barry Dransfield on stage, Leeds Festival 1983

Regards to all - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 04 Apr 24 - 01:57 AM

OK, this is the last batch I have made available for public viewing / downstream use! (for now anyway)... the remainder in my holdings do not come up to scratch for whatever reason - fail aesthetically (composition wise, performers not looking their best), near duplicates of ones already posted, or subject matter just personal/local interest only (friends, neighbours, non-professional colleagues on the folk scene...). Hope you have enjoyed sharing this trip with me down memory lane revisiting events of 40-odd years ago!!

John Martyn + cameraman, Leeds Festival 1983

John Martyn, Leeds Festival 1983 (detail)

Shagpile (Dave Burland, Robin Garside + others), Leeds Festival 1982

Shagpile (Dave Burland, Robin Garside + others) - detail of dancers, Leeds Festival 1982 - Sue Sheridan, Mary Garside, Jane Garside

Chris & Joe While, Leeds Festival 1983

Dick Gaughan, Farnham Folk Day 1985

Mike Silver + audience, Trowbridge Festival 1985

Left Luggage (band) + dancers, all day danceathon, Porchester Hall, London, April 1985

John Kirkpatick & Sue Harris, Well Hall Open Theatre, London 1982

Arizona Smoke Revue, Well Hall Open Theatre, 1982 (different shot from one uploaded previously)

The Easy Club (group), Trowbridge 1985

As before, to view a summary of all the files I have uploaded over the last 8(!) years, you can go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tony_1212#Music_related_2 and just scroll through, or alternatively make use of Wikimedia Commons' "search by uploader" facility, although this will show all the uploads I have made (not just music ones), plus a few files of others that I have modified where needed: Uploads by Tony Rees ("Tony 1212") (most recent are shown first).

Regards to all- Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 06 Apr 24 - 02:43 AM

Another one has slipped out, overlooked in the rush! It shows the London dance Troupe "Paddington Pandemonic Express" (or Paddington's, not sure) at the 1985 Chestnuts Folk Day. Link and possibly additional info towards the end of this mudcat thread:

Mudcat: Paddington Pandemonic Express

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 14 Apr 24 - 03:56 PM

And here are Gilly Darbey & Keith Donnelly from the group "Waterfall", Joe Stead's Birthday Party, Well Hall Open Theatre, London 1992...

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 15 Apr 24 - 03:03 AM

Here's another - especially if you like big balalaikas!

Musicians of Russian Tall Ship "Pallada", Hobart, Tasmania, 1991

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 20 Apr 24 - 02:54 AM

Another from the archive:

The Battlefield Band at Cambridge 1985

(I put up a more distant version of this a year or several back, this one is zoomed in a bit and "improved" courtesy of newer photo enhancement algorithms now available, for a price!!)

- Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 21 Apr 24 - 07:47 PM

Can someone reprise and discover if there is a way forward.
I have loads of stuff my family would not recognise as being in some cases gold dust and so the skip beckons.
I had always thought that the EFDSS library & archive would be the place but the shambles there beggars belief!

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 23 Apr 24 - 02:51 PM

Hi Malcolm...

OK, here is my take on this - if you are a professional photographer and wish to sell your wares, there are plenty of routes for this and read no further. Here I address the needs of the non-commercial photographer who does not wish to make money from their work, but sees it of cultural value and would like it to persist in the event of their demise or otherwise cessation of involvement in the retention process.

The options I would say are:

(1) Give the materials (preferably scanned, but maybe some would also accept prints or transparencies) to a local or national repository to curate indefinitely on your behalf. There are some problems with this approach though:

- If a small organisation, the repository may not have the resources to maintain, or make generally available, its archive indefinitely (and/or any associated web portal)

- Your materials may not be displayed (others may have a higher precedence)

- Some repositories (even or especially the British Library with its new, previously unknown Beatles tape) do not make their materials available online, or permit copying and free re-use (commercial or non-commercial). The EFDSS may or may not come into this category as well.

(2) Submit the materials, in digital form, to a public-access repository, ideally for free re-use without restriction except for acknowledgement that you are the photographer and copyright owner. This is what I do, using the "CC4" Creative Commons licences (but there are others). For this you can put images on FlickR with an appropriate licence; put topographic images (for the UK and Ireland) on Geograph, https://www.geograph.org.uk/ ; use Wikimedia Commons (my preference); or possibly other routes. I choose Wikimedia Commons because (a) it has probably the biggest presence in this area, and is maintained by a charitable, not commercial, foundation, (b) it is the principal "feed" for images used in Wikipedia articles (the pipeline for this is extremely simple), and (c) unlike Wikipedia itself, where the subjects of articles have to be "notable" according to Wikipedia's own principles, for Wikimedia Commons the requirement is less stringent, being more of a potential educational or social-historical-documentary purpose, which fits my photos pretty well: their exact wording (which has changed from time to time) is presently:

"These works provide knowledge, instructions, or information to others"

which covers it - as opposed to (for example) just pictures of yourself or your friends, or other items of a more ephemeral / non useful nature.

The Wikimedia Commons upload procedure is self explanatory is and accessed via the Wikimedia Commons Main Page (link to "Upload file" in the left navigation bar); you have to create an account first, but this is straightforward (if you already have created an account to edit Wikipedia, that one will be useable directly as the logins are shared).

Since 2016 I have uploaded over 300 of my "potentially interesting to future users" images to Wikimedia Commons, using the CC4 license and its predecessors, without problem, and now sleep easy knowing that to the best of my knowledge, these images will now persist indefinitely, can be found by others (especially with appropriate labels and tags e.g. "folk musicians from the United Kingdom"), and can be re-used as well e.g. in Wikipedia articles and therefore circulate more widely than otherwise possible.

In a few cases I have uploaded a copy of modest resolution first, then overwritten it with a better version as available, which is also a simple process and breaks no links for downstream users.

Just my 2 cents of course,

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 23 Apr 24 - 03:45 PM

PS to the above - to show the nature of its present "footprint", when I first uploaded to Wikimedia Commons (2016) it hosted 30 million "freely useable media files"; at the present time it has 104.9 million (doubtless exceeded by the time you read this), all findable via Google or its own search facility. So it ain't goin' nowhere, as the folk poet would say...

- Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: Tony Rees
Date: 23 Apr 24 - 07:03 PM

PPS The above is only applicable for materials such as original photographs for which you as the image creator own the copyright. The same would apply also to audio and video materials, however in these cases often separate copyrights might also be involved from the performers and writers so they may be out of scope, as would also printed materials for which you are not the copyright owner.

Tony

Subject: RE: A repository for your music pictures...
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Apr 24 - 07:54 AM

Thanks Tony.
I think I will try my photos first as I know they are mine.
The videos and sound files my be a different problem.