Electric guitar as a solo instrument

Subject: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:11 AM

I've played acoustic in folk clubs for years, and I've really not liked what folk musicians did with electric guitars.

I've played electric in groups and to backing tracks. but recently I've decided to play an Epiphone 335 solo, with a fender modelling amp.

Any thoughts...?

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:43 AM

Judas?

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:55 AM

If it works why not. Billy Bragg made a success of it.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 04:16 AM

Out of interest, what is it that folkies do with electric guitars that you don’t like? I suspect I might agree with you.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 04:26 AM

There are many varieties of "electric", and I think that how they're used depends on the circumstances. Modern acoustic guitars are now often constructed with built-in electrics, or they have had the electrics installed at a later date. I fitted my "0" model Chisholm with a K&K pickup - completely invisible apart from the tell-tale jack socket in the end block - and, played through my Roland Cube amp, sounds beautifully acoustic; just louder. So I've used that in large or noisy venues, or when playing for dancing with the ceilidh band.

I don't see any distinction, in sound terms, between playing an acoustic or electric guitar, as long as the sound is as you want it and (of course) acceptable to the audience. A purely electric guitar, as opposed to an electro-acoustic instrument - your 335 is a good example - often requires or invites a different technique, attack, melody sustain, vibrato, etc., but that's just a matter of practice.

Some folk clubs I've guested in ask you to plug in, if you can, and have a suitable amp or PA system for you to do so, simply because of the size and acoustics of the venue. If I recall correctly, the Ram Club in Thames Ditton - a very successful club - is an example.

So, Al - have a blast!

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 05:00 AM

I remember seeing John James, quite a few years ago, alternating between an amplified acoustic (perhaps a Fylde) and an Epiphone Emperor - the Emperor made some lovely sounds for his style.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: C-flat
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 05:19 AM

I suppose this goes back to the old question of "what is folk music?" and, in addition, what is a "folk club"?
There are some clubs that embrace folk music as "music of the folk" and others that believe it should be exclusively traditional in content.
Performers like Richard Dawson will seriously challenge most peoples perception of what "folk" music is. Hammering on acoustic and electric guitars in equal measure and even bordering on "prog-rock" at times, but always true to the tenets of "folk" music in his story telling.
There are plenty of other examples of artists occupying prime slots in the "folk" scene who see the solid body guitar as just another instrument.
After all, there's plenty of different ways to play a solid body guitar without using an overdrive pedal.
Go for it Big Al!

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 06:17 AM

As always.. it's down to if an individual guitarist has imagination or is a dullard...

I think in terms of minimalist drone - harmonium and hurdy gurdy, and that's how I'm inclined to play guitar....

3 cheers for John Renburn and his fuzz box.....

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 06:20 AM

.. and John Martyn's tape echo/delay...

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 07:06 AM

Following punkfolkrocker's comment about John Martyn, can I refer people to about 2:41 in this ?

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 09:14 AM

Chris Wood has made the long journey from Quebec fiddle tunes to his own songs accompanied by melancholic 1964 Epiphone guitar.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 10:16 AM

The only time we ever had an issue with someone at our folk club was when they brought an electric guitar, cranked it up to 11 and proceeded to play it out of tune and very badly!

Not that you would do that, Al :-)

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 10:16 AM

I much prefer an electric guitar as a folk instrument. Stretch Dawrson in Edinburgh could play rapper morris tunes on one - try that with an acoustic!

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 10:38 AM

With the modeling amps and other electronic gizmos available today, I don't think it makes much difference, sound-wise, whether one plays an acoustic or electric guitar on stage. A Martin D-28 can be made to sound like a Les Paul, and vice versa.

The only real consideration is aesthetic. Do you want to be seen playing folk music on a Les Paul or hard rock on a D-28? Personally, I don't, though I've certainly seen other people do both quite well.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 11:10 AM

A few years ago, I came across the guitar playing of Richard Fontenot from Louisiana, who played traditional Cajun tunes on an electric guitar with loads of reverb on it. I was so struck by the sound, I had a crack at one of the tracks: "Allons a Lafayette".

The guitar is a slimline, hollow-body made to my specs by luthier Ian Chisholm. I'd come across a DeArmond acoustic guitar pickup I played in the 1960s and 1970s and stuffed in a drawer many years ago. I had the guitar built around the pickup! The amp used in the recording is a Roland Cube - with loads of reverb...

Will Fly: "Allons a Lafayette" (after Richard Fontenot)

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 12:05 PM

To be honest, there wasn't any great idealism involved.

The amp came first. I was in a music shop and I noticed how light the fender GT100 was.   One of the amps it could sound like was a Fender Twin reverb, which I'd always quite liked. Its not an acoustic amp but its more than acceptable.

Then I had a go with the effects and the onboard effects were as good as the boss effects unit I had been taking round - so I thought, well that's one less thing to carry around.,

I've found about six sounds so far that work with the 335. As Dave the Gnome says - you need restraint and extra care with an electric guitar to optimise the extra clarity and sustain the electric guitar naturally gives you.

I've seen electric guitars used a lot in folk music over the years - often with great expertise. The Bully Wee Band, The Home Service, and Lightning Hopkins are deserving of honourable mentions.

However, I've always thought that after Jimi Hendrix - the electric guitar has possibilities other than being played like a loud acoustic guitar - there is a palette of sounds there for us to draw on. Has anyone else had similar thoughts?

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 12:41 PM

Al - for me it's a non issue...

Acoustic guitarists who are still hostile to electrics,
are the ones who need to justify their stubborn prejudice and sense of superiority.

Electric guitars and associated technology are simply far more sonically versatile than acoustic guitars...

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 12:42 PM

..and arguably the more emotionally expressive instrument...

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Cappuccino
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 01:25 PM

As I recall, Andres Segovia called the electric guitar 'an abomination'. But then he could play a bit! And the classical player John Williams had no problem with using a Les Paul in Sky.
At my level, I too play an Epiphone (the 339, smaller-body semi-acoustic) and I find it is quite remarkably good for fingerpicking. Beats my Fender Strat hands down for that, so I say 'go for it!'
I always found the difference between acoustic and electric guitars to be similar to the first time you try and drive a car... at first, it's not clear who's in control or who's controlling the power. Then when you realise it will do what you tell it to, you're off!
Will Fly has got it all correct. Go on, do it!
- Cap

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 01:53 PM

I recall John Williams with Sky being interviewed and he was asked what the difference was between electric and acoustic guitar, and his answer to me seemed very clever and profound.

He said, acoustic guitar is about how the note decays and dies. Which I suppose is why we try to have open strings, whenever we can.

Whereas electric guitar, he thought, was about how the notes sustained.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Cappuccino
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 02:48 PM

Something else has just occurred to me - I've never tried this. On an acoustic guitar, you have a wound third string, and on an electric you have an unwound third. I have often briefly thought about stringing my Epi with a set of acoustic strings to see what it sounded like; but I haven't tried it yet.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:04 PM

When I was playing in electric bands, up to about 2004, I always used sets with a wound 3rd on my Strat, and prior to that my Gretsch and my Tele. I was playing mostly chords and, for that purpose, a wound 3rd plays in tune better than a plain string. There are electric sets available with a wound 3rd - e.g. D'Addario 110W 10-46.

I have a set with a wound 3rd on my Strat at the moment.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:27 PM

You can get electric string sets with wound third strings. Hard rockers don't generally use them, but lots of jazz players do. I use them on my Yamaha ES-335 copy.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:34 PM

Was that an echo?

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:41 PM

Nice to see Richard Dawson mentioned on this forum. Not easy listening but very rewarding!

I ran a songwriters' night for several years, and occasionally people would turn up and play electric guitar rather than the usual acoustic. It rarely worked well for more than a song or two, I suspect because they were usually just doing whatever they did in their band but sans drums and bass, and it wasn't interesting on its own.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 03:57 PM

Yes, Backwoodsman, that was an echo. It's what happens when you decide to eat lunch before posting something and then forget to refresh to see if someone else has already said it for you.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 04:18 PM

LOL! Nice response, BWL! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,RRS
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 05:20 PM

There is a third option, like my Yamaha AEX 500 hybrid, piezo in the bridge ( same as in the APX ac/electrics ) & mini-humbucker neck pickup: onboard eq for the piezo + a blend switch allow full acoustic or electric sounds, or any mix of the two - with its wound 3rd, it's been my trusty gig workhorse for 20 years, does everything from folk/blues to jazz very effectively.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: gnu
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 10:25 PM

Yeah...

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 27 Nov 18 - 12:41 PM

Al - for me it's a non issue...

Acoustic guitarists who are still hostile to electrics,
are the ones who need to justify their stubborn prejudice and sense of superiority.

************************************************

Another 'echo'.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 02:52 AM

"Acoustic guitarists who are still hostile to electrics,
are the ones who need to justify their stubborn prejudice and sense of superiority."

I love them all, my acoustics and my (now just one) electric. Always have, always will. I like banjos too.

I restrict my hostility, stubborn prejudice, and sense of superiority, to ukuleles. ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 03:02 AM

Just to further annoy the old anti-electric 'Judas' brigade...

I also own electric autoharps, electic banjos, electric mandos, electric sitars...

all with understring magnetic pickups.. none of those shrill piezo eardrum graters...

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 04:34 AM

I'm not generally a fan of piezo pickups either, but was immediately struck by the absolutely natural sound of the K&K pickups when I heard Chris Newman playing at the Hawth in Crawley. I asked him what was in the guitar and heard about the K&K for the first time.

Basically, three oval discs - a bit like Honesty leaves - each of which is glued to the inside of the face, under the bridge, so as to pick up the sound of two strings. All connected by thin cables and joining into one master cable which runs to the jack socket. No volume or tone controls in the basic model - they have to be controlled by an acoustic amp like a Roland. As I said earlier, a good natural sound but loud. For putting through PA systems, there's also a K&K pre-amp which clips to the belt.

I was so impressed, I had one fitted to my mandolin and another to my tenor guitar.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 04:38 AM

Well I see you're all lining up spoiling for a big argument even though the only person on this thread who has had anything bad to say about electric players was the OP, though he does not expand on what he doesn't like, and bizarrely seems to use it as a reason to justify playing electric himself.


It is very easy for me to "justify my stubborn prejudice" against electric guitars *in an acoustic session*. It is simply this: that in my experience, players of electric instruments are simply unable to resist the temptation to TURN IT UP and play over everyone else all the time. LOUD LOUD LOUD. No matter whether they walk into a session carrying an amp, or whether they think they are being subtle by having some sort of mini box strapped to their acoustic. I can't say whether all electric players have damaged their hearing through overexposure to loud music, or whether it's old age, or whether they just think that they're little bit better than the rest of us. I am not pleased to see them when they show up. Thankfully it does not happen that often.


On the other hand, go to any open mic night and 90-95% of the guitars will use pickups, no matter what the instrument itself looks like or how it is played. In that context, who cares.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 04:57 AM

I don't take amps into an acoustic session. As it happens I run two sessions, and they're strictly acoustic. On the other hand, I've played at open mics and not plugged in - just played acoustically with a mic in front of the guitar.

When playing at large venues, however - and I exclude sessions and normal-sized folk clubs here - then some sort of amplification is necessary just to be heard.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 05:59 AM

The thing about the k and k. Its not foolproof.

About ten years Faith guitars got a new designer and you could pick up the old models for little or nowt. I bought five Jupiter models from Becketts of Southampton, which were destined for the skip. I gave one to Sunjay and sold one to Tony of No Fixed Abode.

At that time I was playing a Jupiter fitted with a K and K. And people were very positive about the sound. I remember I did a gig with Chris Newman's brother at Faldingworth , and a hundred and fifty quid Jupiter with the K and K westerner fitted took all the plaudits.

However that K and K had been fitted by Alan Marshall, the luthier behind Northworthy guitars at Carsington. Against my advice, Sunjay chose the glossy model Jupiter which looked great, but which Alan had delegated one of the guys in his workshop to fit, and it sounded no great shakes. In the end I heard Sunjay swapped it for some studio time.

Moral of the story - it takes expertise to place those little transducer microphone things and get the best results.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 06:12 AM

Absolutely, Al - any additions or alterations to instruments need a good practitioner. Luckily, Ian Chisholm, the luthier who made my 0 model Chisholm guitar, tenor guitar and mandolin, also fitted the K&K pickups. He did a good job.

Chris's brother, Mark Newman, now lives in France. I remember seeing him play for the first time in Leicester, at a blues/folk club at the old Victoria Hotel in Granby Street. His playing really got me enthused - this was 1964...

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 09:40 AM

I've got K&Ks in my Lowden, two Martins, and a Fylde mandolin. Alan Marshall fitted one, I fitted another, the third was fitted by Vintage Guitats in Norwich, and the mandolin pickup was fitted by John Le Voi.

All four sound excellent, but they go through a Source-Audio Programmable EQ and an Orchid Muting DI. Straight into a PA they have a tendency to sound bass-heavy and thuddy, but using the EQ and DI they're very good indeed. And no batteries in the instrument!

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 10:49 AM

Once in a while I've jammed (as opposed to performed) with a solid body electric to accompany my voice. For me it comes down to volume level relative to my voice (and other instruments), and tone. I prefer a clean signal with perhaps a touch of chorus and/or reverb, just enough to fatten the tone a bit without obvious modulation in order to emulate an acoustic in the room. It's handy to be able to goose the volume a bit for solos too.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 11:02 AM

One of the great things about electric guitars is just how interactive the tone and vol controls are
with vintage style treble boosters, fuzz, and valve amps...

Sadly, too many guitarists are completely ignorant of this 'old school' tonal shaping technique,
as they misguidedly keep their guitar knobs permanently on 10.

Some even boast that they never use their tone knobs,
because they "suck tone"...

I have a couple of [what should have been] very good guitars that do not have tone controls,
because the manufacturers pandered to this stupid fad.

One day I might get round to having tone knobs fitted..

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: RTim
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 11:03 AM

One of the best is Arty McGlynn and a favorite track is this below....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeVFTGzZQgQ

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 11:57 AM

Loren Mazzacane Connors does some beauitful solo electric guitar work.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 12:20 PM

"Do you want to be seen playing folk music on a Les Paul..."


I've just been sat in the throne room listening to old Les Paul tracks...

hmmm... wonder what guitar he played...???


Let's not forget the Les Paul was originally developed as a solid body feedback resistant deluxe guitar
intended for sophisticated tasteful jazz cabaret showbiz melodic players...

Not really that different in essence from the far more fancy and expensive acoustic guitars that get shown off in folkie circles...

Now what if Gibson had exported more Les Pauls to The UK during the 1950s folk boom
and signed endorsement deals with emerging star folk guitarists...???

maybe in an alternative universe...?????

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: John P
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 05:36 PM

I play with a fiddle player who is great at playing harmony, and loves it. When I play acoustic, there isn't enough sustain to carry the melody so she can harmonize. The electric also is easier to make individual notes stand out when playing melody and chords at the same time.

If traditional music evolves, electric guitars are traditional instruments.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 30 Nov 18 - 12:25 AM

I play both acoustic and electric guitars, often on the same night. To my mind, they are different instruments. An electric, with near endless sustain, 22 accessible frets and lots of tone controls, sounds and plays differently than an acoustic. An electric is not the same thing as an acoustic that can be played really, really loud. I don’t know about where you play, but around here amplification is required to play an acoustic on stage and the choice of pickup is a frequent topic for debate. I have Baggs IBbeams in both of the acoustics that I play out and I like the way they sound.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Nov 18 - 04:16 AM

I think there's a subtle difference between the amplification produced by an active transducer and by an all-electric pickup. I have an i-Beam fitted to a Martin XC1T. It sounds very nice but quite different from the 1960s DeArmond pickup on my Chisholm hollow-body. The DeArmond - fitted across the sound hole - is outputting the sound of the amplified strings, whereas the iBeam - fitted under the bridge - is outputting more of the overall acoustic sound of the guitar.

I suspect that, were I to reverse the fittings, the hollow-body would probably sound quite thin and weedy; the DeArmond would make both guitars sound more or less the same.

Just a guess, of course, because I've never tried the experiment.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 30 Nov 18 - 10:39 AM

I tried part of that experiment years ago. My first attempt at amplifying an acoustic was an “across the soundhole” pickup. I wasn’t happy with the sound on my guitar and tried the pickup every other guitar I could get my hands on. To me it sounded pretty much the same on every guitar I tried.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 04:03 AM

I've got a guitar like that Bill Howard made me, The important thing is to remember you need nickel strings. Bronze strings won't work with a magnetic pick up. Not at the kind of volume that's usable.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: GUEST,Musikverlag Mittelgebirge
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 06:39 AM

Speaking of electric guitar in folk music, Martin Carthy played (uncredited) Fender Telecaster on his 1979 version of "Lovely Joan". It comes in very subtly somewhere in the middle of the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAkJgMZjQDk

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 07:24 AM

He had a nice pale blue fender at one time.

Subject: RE: Electric guitar as a solo instrument
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 07:39 AM

A few of my acoustic guitars are equipped with Fishman Rare Earth soundhole pickups. They're relatively unobtrusive and serve to allow a tone that's different from the pure acoustic tone for soloing and other effects. In a pinch they'll do for general amplification but are no match for a good condenser mic. Plugged into an amp however, they work great for solos and effects.