Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)

Subject: Bright Phoebus news?
From: GUEST,Fokeman
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 06:28 PM

Does anyone know what's going on with the Domino reissue of Bright Phoebus? I've heard whisperings that there is some sort of legal challenge to its release. Is this true? What's going on?

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus news?
From: GUEST,Fokey
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 06:34 PM

Thanks, just read the horrific news on the other thread! God how bloody sickmaking. Calum Bulmer continues the legacy...

Subject: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoeb
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:19 PM

Celtic Music has successfully sued Domino recording Co. for copyright infringement regarding Domino's 2017 vinyl reissue of the Watersons' Bright Phoebus LP. (Just now noticing this was published Nov. 30, 2018 in fRoots, so apologies if posted here before.)

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

See relevant (long!) thread:
RE: Bright Phoebus reissued

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 03:58 AM

Did Celtic Music not buy the back catalogue of Leader etc including the rights to Bright Phoebus?

Now it seems Domino have tried to circumvent CM ~ this cannot be right ~commercial rights rule

I do sympathies with the original artists ~ however ~ CM did not have the brass to go ahead with the repressing of the vinyl?

So what should have happened and where to now??

Ray

and dunt blame me I only asked

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: nigelgatherer
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

r.padgett: "CM did not have the brass to go ahead with the repressing of the vinyl?"

I had to laugh at this. Some say CM have been very good at "repressing" albums and artists.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:24 AM

"CM did not have the brass to go ahead with the repressing of the vinyl"

I have never understood this argument. It is now several decades since vinyl was superseded by CDs. For a long time these have been very cheap to produce. The biggest cost in making in album is the recording itself. It wouldn't cost a lot to remaster the recordings and reissue them on CD, and albums like Bright Phoebus, the Nic Jones albums and many more would surely sell well enough to more than justify this investment and show a handsome profit - Domino presumably thought so.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 03:03 AM

Did CM have the brass then? I asked ~ an amount of money had been paid out to the likes of Leader for his back catalogue

Will you all please look carefully at what I posted initially ~ laugh away I am asking questions and simply to laugh tells me and others nothing

What is needed to my mind is the likes of you lot to come up with some brass or some sort of consortium to back the printing or reproduction of these priceless original Nic Jones (or not)

Yes if there are objections to this from CM (I think Calum and his mum) and they have some other issues mebbe a good idea to know from the outset ~ I believe DB died a few years ago now ~ Bob Fox and Bernie Parry I believe had to re record
However I am not too sure what sort of numbers CD sales are making nowadays ~ I have a few of my own ~ hundreds ~ lol

Ray

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

At the time Bulmer acquired the catalogue from Leader it would have been much more risky to release the albums. Vinyl was relatively expensive to produce, and if I recall correctly the minimum run was 1000 copies. Unless he had the pressing masters these would have had to be remastered. I can understand that he would have been cautious about going for a full release, especially as Leader had failed to make a success of it. Nevertheless, having acquired the catalogue I am surprised he did not do more to try to recoup his investment.

Times have changed, it is now far easier and cheaper to produce CDs. When my band made an album a couple of years ago we paid £826 for 500 CDs, including VAT. These were double CDs in jewel cases, with colour inserts and cellophane-wrapped, and delivered. That's £1.65 per copy which we sell at £12. CM would have additional costs for digital remastering, MCPS royalties (only payable on copyright tracks) and CM's own overheads, but most of the other significant costs of recording had already been paid by Leader.

I'd be very confident that Bright Phoebus, the Nic Jones albums and quite a lot more could easily sell at least 500 copies. Of course some of the catalogue may not sell even that number, but it is very cheap to make digital copies available online eg through Bandcamp where people can purchase whole albums or individual tracks. Whilst these sell for less than a physical CD, the costs are less so the margins may even be higher.

I could never understand Dave Bulmer's approach, which did not appear to be in his financial interests, let alone the damage it did to his reputation (he had been well respected as a musician and for his publications of Irish tunes), the damage it did to the musicians involved, and to the wider folk world who were unable to get hold of some important recordings. It appears his beneficiaries may now be considering releasing some of the catalogue, so they would have seen the unauthorised release of Bright Phoebus as particularly damaging.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:30 AM

Thanks Howard Jones

Ray

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:21 PM

maybe you should ask Rod Stradling about the state of CD sales?- see his comments on www.mustrad.org

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:56 PM

In the Nic Jones case, didn't Bulmer argue that he had lots if vinyl copies of Nic's albums and that if he released them on cd, he would be stuck with a pile of vinyl ( this was before vinyl's comeback) albums that nobody wanted.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 01:53 AM

Tunesmith if - as your supposition suggests - Dave had lots of copies of must have vinyl why did he not sell them once they came back into fashion? Dave may have been many things but he certainly wasn't daft.

I think you will find that Dave was talking about vinyl copies in general - a lot of which where not too saleable.

With regard to the Bright Phoebus copies with the holes off centre I would have thought that it would not be beyond the ability of a practical vinyl disc producer to merely centre the offending items and cut a larger hole as used in Juke Box 45rpm discs. Lots of people had the adapter (which sold at next to nothing) needed to play these once they were replaced by later recordings and either given away by pub landlords and the like or sold for a small amount.

Obviously there was no great demand to justify doing so.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: Hagman
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:43 AM

CM obviously had the brass or the contacts to hire lawyers for the court-case.... just sayin', like.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:03 AM

While pressing up vinyl is a lot more expensive than making CDs, it is a lot more profitable if you do it sensibly. There's a limit to how much people are prepared to spend on a CD. Whereas are people are prepared to spend a lot more money for vinyl; especially if you throw in all the bells and whistles like 'limited edition heavyweight vinyl, gatefold, free poster' and whatnot.

That kind of thing won't work if you're just starting out but it seems to work brilliantly for any albums or artists with cult status. Just look at the remastered Bagpuss vinyl reissue.

Whether or not Celtic music currently have the money to press up vinyl (or CD) of Nic Jones albums seems a fairly moot point and even more so given none of us have access to their bank account; if you're a record label it's a bit weird not to do the stuff that record labels do. That's the main complaint that all the musicians have.

Typing this has made me wonder why there isn't a heavyweight vinyl remaster of Shirley Collins classics like 'Anthems in Eden' and 'Death and the Lady'. They would sell like hot cakes, given her iconic status and story. Maybe there has been and I don't know about it.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:27 AM

I would have thought that it would not be beyond the ability of a practical vinyl disc producer to merely centre the offending items and cut a larger hole as used in Juke Box 45rpm discs.

That would need both sides to be off centre by the same amount and in the same direction. My memory of (unlamented) vinyl is that this was rarely the case.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

There is now a market for vinyls, and a lot of artists are offering these alongside CDs and downloads. My comments were really about the economics of releasing LPs at the time Bulmer first acquired the catalogue. There would have been a greater financial risk, and at the time he might have felt the demand might not justify it.

Some of these albums, including Bright Phoebus and Nic Jones's output, have acquired near-mythical status through being made unavailable for so long, and if they were to be reissued now I think there would be strong demand, if only from a new generation wanting to know what all the fuss was about.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:42 AM

Excuse me G-Force but I fear you are talking gibberish.
The pressings of the tracks would be centrally located on the disc.
It would only be the later added single hole that would be off centre.
Were that not the case there would be two off centre holes.
Within reason it would not matter how far off centre the misplaced hole was as a new larger hole would no doubt accommodate this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: G-Force
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM

I have several vinyl discs where one side is central and one isn't. Enlarging the hole to replace it with an insert wouldn't cure the problem. It's one reason why I heaved a sigh of relief when CDs came in.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

"It's one reason why I heaved a sigh of relief when CDs came in.

..and why now so many serious music lovers are becoming won over by the new reality
of downloading CD, or even 'better' HiRes, quality music files...

Something young [sorry don't know his exact age] Bulmer surely must be aware of.
He must understand that this is now the most cost effective and profitable way of releasing his inherited music library
for purchase by a new generation of folk enthusiasts...???



btw.. I hope he or his repesentatives are closely monitoring these threads,
and are prepared to consider the more positive conciliatory posts amidst all the bitter feuding insults...

Some of us would welcome his presence here if he is open to real constructive discussion.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

G-Force
You seem to be singularly unlucky with your purchases of vinyl discs.
Did you get them cheaply?
If you did it might have paid to buy two copies and then you could have used the method suggested above to be able to play the offending side.
Cheers

Subject: RE: Celtic Music wins in court (Bright Phoebus)
From: G-Force
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 09:03 AM

I often noticed the same problem with records I borrowed from other people, so no I wasn't unlucky, but I am quite musical and can clearly hear the resultant 'wow' which maybe others can't.

I used to ream out the central hole so that I could locate each side centrally on the turntable, then copy them to cassette and play them in the car. Those were the days.

If the modern 'comeback' of vinyl is to make headway then they'll have to sort out those quality problems. This should be more readily achievable with small production runs than with mass production for cloth-eared idiots.