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BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?

Iains 02 Dec 18 - 04:45 PM
Thompson 02 Dec 18 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 18 - 05:31 PM
Mr Red 02 Dec 18 - 06:08 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 18 - 06:26 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 18 - 07:14 PM
Donuel 02 Dec 18 - 07:49 PM
robomatic 02 Dec 18 - 08:03 PM
Mossback 02 Dec 18 - 08:08 PM
Stanron 02 Dec 18 - 11:32 PM
Joe Offer 03 Dec 18 - 03:14 AM
Thompson 03 Dec 18 - 03:30 AM
Senoufou 03 Dec 18 - 03:34 AM
Senoufou 03 Dec 18 - 03:36 AM
Iains 03 Dec 18 - 04:09 AM
Mr Red 03 Dec 18 - 04:33 AM
Iains 03 Dec 18 - 07:38 AM
Iains 03 Dec 18 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Dec 18 - 06:48 PM
Iains 04 Dec 18 - 04:00 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 18 - 04:45 AM
Iains 04 Dec 18 - 05:16 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 18 - 05:59 AM
Donuel 04 Dec 18 - 07:04 AM
Iains 04 Dec 18 - 07:40 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 18 - 08:00 AM
Iains 04 Dec 18 - 08:03 AM
Donuel 04 Dec 18 - 08:06 AM
Donuel 04 Dec 18 - 08:11 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Dec 18 - 08:21 AM
Donuel 04 Dec 18 - 10:51 AM
SPB-Cooperator 04 Dec 18 - 10:58 AM
Donuel 04 Dec 18 - 11:01 AM
Iains 04 Dec 18 - 02:08 PM
Senoufou 04 Dec 18 - 03:18 PM
Donuel 04 Dec 18 - 06:59 PM
Iains 05 Dec 18 - 08:53 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 18 - 09:07 AM
Senoufou 05 Dec 18 - 09:19 AM
Mr Red 05 Dec 18 - 04:11 PM
Iains 05 Dec 18 - 05:12 PM
Iains 06 Dec 18 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 06 Dec 18 - 10:19 AM
Iains 06 Dec 18 - 11:04 AM
Iains 06 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

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Subject: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 04:45 PM

An interesting article on climate change from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/02/world-verge-climate-catastophe
Portrait of a planet on the verge of climate catastrophe
As the UN sits down for its annual climate conference this week, many experts believe we have passed the point of no return. This seems a tad alarmist to me.
It has to be considered in the context of past changes in sea level that range from +50m to -150m over the last 700ka, over a series of cycles.
NASA has produced a couple of graphs that give pause for thought, concerning CO2 build up post industrial revolution.

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/carbon-dioxide/

But there is also evidence of massive flood events to create the US scablands and also recent work to suggest the Weald Artois ridge was breached by similar floods to both create the English Channel and the scablands recently found within it. It is argued by some that the only source of energy for such massive meltwater release is of cosmic origin. i.e. an impact.
The science behind the causes of the underlying climate cycles is contested and the anthropogenic changes are highly politicised,so alarmist headlines may simply be just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 05:03 PM

It’s generally not contested by scientists who actually work in the field though.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 05:31 PM

We can't know whether it's ALL anthropogenic, but what we do know is that there is close correlation between rising atmospheric carbon dioxide (which is definitely anthropogenic) and rising temperatures over land and sea in both hemispheres, and that that has been happening for 150 years or more. We also know that atmospheric carbon dioxide is still increasing and that it is at it highest level for thousands of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 06:08 PM

Light a fire in a house and it gets warm. And we have been lighting fires in our global house** at an accelerating pace for a few hundred years.

The Earth's climate has swung with the Earth's orbit as it precesses, goes oval at times, as the volcanoes spew big time, or the sun decides on coronal mass ejections and as meteorites collide, with a list of other things homo: Sapiens/ Neaderthals / Denisovans et al have not contributed to. And meteorites are a damn sight faster than what modern humans are doing. And one did for most of the species that had found a far too comfortable a niche.

But then history has to repeat itself, no-one is listening.

**where the chimney, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 06:26 PM

You are avoiding the acience and choosing to speculate.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 07:14 PM

Science!


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 07:49 PM

We might all be using oxygen concentrators as the ratio of gases progresses.

As the American West and Amazon forests burn and permafrost releases methane along with fracking and volcanic eruptions it will be out of out hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 08:03 PM

This scene with Paul Lieberstein on "The Newsroom" cracks me up every time


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 08:08 PM

More science deniers.

Everyone Get on the Trump Train
Ooh Ah Eee Ah Ooh Ah
Get on the Trump Train
Bullshit sounding louder
Ride on the Trump Train
Ooh Ah Eee Ah Ooh Ah
Get on the Trump Train


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 11:32 PM

I have this wierd idea that our planet, itself, might be alive. Alive on a much slower timescale than we can imagine. Except that I've just imagined it.

The planet absorbs energy from the sun in all sorts of biological ways on it's surface. Over vast temporal periods the products of biological activity get absorbed into the surface of the planet and eventually, through tectonic plate subduction are absorbed into the core. This is not altogether different to plants absorbing the sun's energy in order to grow. So, with regard to climate change and all that, can an argument be made that using fossil fuels interferes with feeding the planet, itself, with the energy from the sun? A further extrapolation could be that the whole universe is alive. After all, we know that life can exist on the surface of our planet. Why can it not exist everywhere else?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:14 AM

I think that our planet has survived billions of years longer than we have, for a reason. It has adapted, and its undisturbed operation leads to survival. When we add chemical substances to the atmosphere, we are interrupting the survival path of the planet in a major way - and we must be very careful about that.
For the most part, we are best off if we reduce our impact on the planet so that it goes on its own, with very little effect from human action.
-Joe-

P.S. Mossback, chill. You're starting to sound too much like your previous personna. If you keep weirding out like he did, you won't last as long as he did.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:30 AM

The planet may survive; whether humans will is moot.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:34 AM

Ah Stanron that's the first time I've read something that chimes with my own belief! I too have this rather strange idea that Earth, and indeed the entire Universe/Creation, is a vast living organism.

And I sometimes wonder if it has its own intelligence. Is it literally suffering due to the activities of Man over the past 100 years?

Musing on, will 'it' find its own solutions by dealing with Man? A lethal pandemic virus which will reduce us to a few survivors, who will regress to primitive Man's ways for example, while the Earth restores its natural resources and climate?

I was impressed by Professor Brian Cox' words when he stated that in his opinion it's likely that we are the only place in the entire Cosmos that has life. Other planets have briefly experienced living organisms, but due to meteor strikes, volcanoes and other cataclysmic events, their life has been extinguished. Only on Earth has intelligent (?!) life evolved and survived (so far).


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:36 AM

Brian Cox's (missed the 's')


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 04:09 AM

The problem with some modern science is that it is not unequivocal. Quite frequently proxies have to be used to quantify parameters, hence there is scope for argument and rejection. There is also inertia, coupled with peer pressure, and of course no one is a prophet in their own land.
Examples Wegener Continental drift   
         KT boundary and impact
         Bretz and the Missoula floods
         Firestone et al Cycles of cosmic catastrophe
Some of the above has largely been accepted, some is hotly contested.
Peer pressure and funding sets the agenda. There is a lot of wood to sift through before the trees can be seen.
Climate science is no different. Parameters can be measured reasonably accurately, the problem arises with the subsequent interpretation. Mix politics into the equation and the result is a witche's brew.
But past CO2 levels have never reached existing levels previously.

https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/images/air_bubbles_historical.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 04:33 AM

Past Oxygen levels were such that it took stomatalites to colonise the Earth. Cyanobacteria were the oxygen creating factor. Then plants evolved to soak up the CO2.

The planet will survive until the sun decides. & when the next big meteor strikes, Homo Sapiens will have evolved physically &/or culturally to the point of being unlikely to survive the niche it has created for itself.

The only bright spot in the burgeoning population is that the shear numbers may be an insurance for at least a few pockets of resourceful individuals to survive & procreate. Maybe.

Current Climate Change is fact, how many metrics do you want? Causes are speculation based on good science, and statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 07:38 AM

Climate change is fact. Very true.But how much is anthropogenic?

Here is a guy out of the left field that raises some very valid questions. Well worth ploughing through.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbihGWTT2IY


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 08:14 AM

Further evidence of the corruption of the scientific method by "vested" interests.


https://cosmictusk.com/hancock-comet-research-group/


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 06:48 PM

Early stromatolites (once we can sort the biological from the non-biological accretions - not always easy) WERE Cyanobacteria. "Then plants evolved to soak up the CO2" sounds suspiciously like evolution having a plan... Cyanobacteria are photosynthetic, which means that they were "soaking up the CO2" hundreds of millions of years before eukaryotic plants evolved, things like marine and freshwater algae (to start with). In fact, Cyanobacteria were almost certainly responsible for the conversion of the atmosphere into an oxidising one, likely to have happened over 2.1 billion years ago. There is hardly any evidence at all that eukaryotic green plants, or indeed any eukaryotic organisms, were in existence up to that time, at least not to anything like the extent needed for them to have much influence on that "soaking up."


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 04:00 AM

The original carbon capture mechanism coinciding with a change in atmospheric oxygen from 1% to 21%. They go back nearly 3.5 billion years if you believe they exist in the Strelley Pool Chert within the Warrawoona Group in Western Australia. As usual there is scientific dispute about this.
They caused far more damage to the atmosphere than any humans!


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 04:45 AM

Interestingly, at the time of the Cretaceous-Palaeogene boundary the atmospheric oxygen level exceeded 30%. It isn't impossible that huge fires, possibly triggered by the Deccan Traps eruptions and/or the Chicxulub crater event, raging all the more fiercely due to the high oxygen level, contributed to the mass extinctions.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 05:16 AM

It is also postulated by some that the Deccan trap eruptions were triggered by the same impact event, though as usual, others dispute this. It is also uncertain if the Traps were antipodean to the impact at that time. As all the continental plates received a severe rattling it is more than likely volcanicity was initiated in many other places.
This would have created a worldwide nuclear winter on steroids,inhibiting photosynthesis and stalling out the foodchain. Bad news for the mega fauna that
grazed extensively. Some studies suggest the Oxygen levels werelower lower during the Mezozoic than present. The science on this is not settled.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 05:59 AM

The Deccan Traps were probably at it before the impact but the eruptions may well have been hugely exacerbated by the seismic shock. Another interesting postulation is that the sudden disruption of climate and vegetation may have lasted for not much more than just a couple of years before the Earth righted itself. We tend to think of things happening over aeons, but the mass extinction could have been done and almost dusted in the time between a referendum and the cancellation of brexit... :-) Apparently, the Mediterranean Sea formed in just a few months 5.33 million years ago as the floor of what's now the Strait of Gibraltar collapsed suddenly in a seismic event, allowing the Atlantic to surge in, the greatest ever known flood. Sorry, yanks. We know you had big floods in the Ice Age (which you still haven't stopped arguing about) but you can't always claim the biggest and best of everthang...


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 07:04 AM

The Deccan Traps were no more Russian than the badland floods were American or the Mediterranean floods were European.
The English Channel was carved in weeks too but that doesn't make it British.
Perhaps many are anthrocentric or Gaian because we have a bias for our own temporary species. Believe me Gaia has no specific predjudice for or against humanity. Earth has been molten. Earth has been a solid snowball. Mankind had nothing to with it. Now we have hand in a runaway heating event. Will hummanity rise to the call? Its too late to avoid damaging current life.


Not everyone is even part of humanity as I see it but in a very polar opposite fascist and anti racist ideaology.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 07:40 AM

There is even argument over the siberian traps and wilkes crater.


https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/3086/can-impact-events-cause-widespread-volcanic-activity-on-the-other-side-of-


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 08:00 AM

The Deccan Traps volcanos were already active at the time of the Chicxulub impact. But who knows. It's all very intriguing but we need more evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 08:03 AM

When I was a lad and first became an FGS, the paper below would have been used in the little room, now it is 'almost' mainstream.


http://sp.lyellcollection.org/content/273/1

and the geological society of America has joined the club.

https://pubs.geosciencewo


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 08:06 AM

The last sentence could be misconstrued. "Fascist Corporatism' alone should suffice. That would include multinational corp, Criminal hive mentalities for big businesses, social psychopath CEO's with zero empathy and people like; the Koch Brothers, Blankenship and Putinesque Hitler wannabes.
Trump wants actual fascism.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 08:11 AM

Enemies of the Earth are not all your gas vehicle drivers. They are the relatively few organized corporate leaders that can be overturned.


No, climate change is not all anthropogenic.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 08:21 AM

More of a concern is even if effective measures are taken now, any reversal of climate change will not take place immediately, but possibly after years/decades of things only getting worse at a slower pace. it is probably unlikely that the corner will be turned in my generation's lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:51 AM

SPB it is worse than that.
Infectious tropical diseases are spreading north BUT the melting permafrost is exposing reindeer remains millenia old and is giving oil and gas workers anthrax in Siberia two years ago. There is more evil in the melting mud than we can know. Other northern climes are at risk of reviving ancient but 'new to us' strains of bacteria and virus. This is not a sci fi fantasy, it is happening already. The Trump led USA has already cut our responding agencies, making it worse.

The cold war caused the USSR to grow hundreds of tons of small pox virus as a weapon. I don't know how much one virus weighs but consider hundres of tons. I am not an authority but imagine tons of virus locked in ice about to melt. I suspect that global warming will strike mankind sooner rather than later in a less than obvious way and from a direction we do not/can not anticipate.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:58 AM

why should the billionaires worry - they probably have their bubbles ready to move into.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 11:01 AM

Not even solid porcelin can trap or filter out a virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 02:08 PM

Donuel there are still plague pits in London where the bones carry the bacteria for bubonic plague.
A poem by Thomas Hardy on their disturbance during railway building.
He worked as an overseer for the Clerk of Works, and inspired by the scene memorably began: “We late-lamented, resting here, Are mixed to human jam, And each to each exclaims in fear, ‘I know not which I am!’”

Great attention is also paid to old leather works because of the fear of potential anthrax. The cross rail scheme in London encountered both.

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20160906-plague-pits-the-london-underground-and-crossrail


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 03:18 PM

Rumour has it that there are a few thousand plague victims buried under the Samson and Hercules nightclub in Norwich's Tombland. People have been dancing above their heads for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 06:59 PM

Sometimes rumour is the last vestige of truth, sometimes its just a rumor.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:53 AM

In hackney (East London)you are not allowed to stand on the grass for the reason below:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/londons-plague-pits-map-shows-where-the-black-death-got-buried

They do not have the same signs at Green Park and Shepherd's Bush Green, that also contain plague pits. Even Sainsbury's in Whitechapel is built over one.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:07 AM

I used to live in the borough next to Hackney. There's a lot of grass in Hackney.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:19 AM

The bodies under the Samson and Hercules consist of victims from both plague outbreaks (14th and 17th centuries) Directly above them was once a public swimming pool. And above that the dance floor for the nightclub.
It's thought that all the available cemeteries were quickly filled, and this pit (directly opposite the cathedral) was chosen as 'near' consecrated ground.
Tombland has nothing to do with interment though. It means 'open space'. (old Anglo-Saxon word derived from Norse)


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 04:11 PM

Further evidence of the corruption of the scientific method by "vested" interests.

Hmmmmm. Twitler has a theory. Ya reckon he's got a point? Other than lining his own pockets?

You can spout all you want on denying the science, but the fact is we are using insolation from 200 million years ago, big time. The numbers are a distraction, the message is we are getting more of the sun by burning what the sun gave us over millions of years. We are getting sun plus. Argue it won't change things much, and you deny the advancing spring, the plants that are seen ever further north than before, migrating birds not bothering to find a warmer country because they can just survive here thankyou very much.

We have always affected our climate, but we are more, so the effect is more. See Dartmoor.

Things have to get ridiculous for people to believe. Go look up the "Big Stink".

History repeats itself, it has to, nobody is listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 05:12 PM

Hmmmmm. Twitler has a theory. Ya reckon he's got a point? Other than lining his own pockets?

Are you contributing to the right thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 18 - 10:10 AM

A bit of background to the debate and an entertaining lecturer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yze1YAz_LYM


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 18 - 10:19 AM

Iains, I didn't know the Atlantic rift could double sea level rise.

The Twitler Fact is that his 'gut' is the most intelligent organ on earth.
It is not a theory.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 18 - 11:04 AM

Well a gut reaction is probably more accurate than being swayed by pointy heads. They frequently cannot agree among themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate change. Is it all anthropogenic?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqZGgaZaXig

The link above gives a very different temperature narrative compared to the mainstream yet the divergence is backed by older newspaper articles.

A lesser known part of Eisenhowers farewell speech was is his second warning, about manipulation of academia by political interests.
President Eisenhower surrounded himself with brilliant academics, he knew that science ended World War II without costing another million American lives, but by 1961 he also knew "we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”

He worried about that government control over funding would change the nature of the “free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery.

I suggest you watch the link above and keep an open mind. One side is telling porkies!


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