BS: Refugees and asylum seekers

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 06:42 AM

" To Accuse me of being a member of the klu klus klan is a bit of a step too far"
It might - just might be, if I'd done so
I didn't, and you know it - stop making things up
I compared your operating from behind the safety of your anonymity to their hoods and robes - pretty good comparison,
Some people (no names) prefer to egg on others from the security of the sidelines rather than run the risk of showing their face
I doubt if even the Klan would seek the support of a dimmo feeble minded enough to make racist attacks on people of his own race - to mindless for even them

"Do your delusions still insist the UK is supporting the Assad regime?"
Britain continued to support Assad for nearly a decade after it was revealed by Amnesty that they had been filling torture chambers with political opponents and 'disappearing them' in their many thousands when they'd finished with them
During the Arab Spring protests, protesters were rounded up and placed in Assad's prisons using British supplies riot control equipment, tear gas and gun-mounted armoured cars - fully reported in the press
At the height of the Homs massacre, when snipers were competing for cigarettes by shooting mothers through the babies they were carring in their arms with one bullet, it transpited that Britain had licenced an order for sniper ammunition to Syria which could have been used to train those snipers
When chemical weapons became an issue, Britain was castigated internationally for selling chemicals capable of manufacturing those weapons   
What was the question again ?

The British Government has colluded with Assad, the Saudis... and many other mass murderers and in doing so they have created a massive refugee problem while at the same time creating the perfect conditions for the rise in International terrorism that we have been experiencing
Now we are closing our doors to that problem and have sacrificed the future and the well-being of the British people by exiting Europe in order to carry out that viciously inhuman act

I have no interest whatever in political re-definitions in order to justify their baviour such as the one you have put up

Refugee and sanctuary mean what they mean, whatever the politicians tell us

Doubt if you'll respond to any of this other than to strut your usual stuff - never mind a - it wasn't for your benefit

Is that what you were talking about Dick ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 07:11 AM

"To Accuse me of being a member of the klu klus klan"

Nah Jim, I think you're wrong. If our resident Right-Wing Extremist was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, he'd at least be able to spell its name correctly.

As Nigs the Nitpicker never seems to want to nitpick what his Extreme-Right cronies post, I just thought I'd help him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM

I doubt if even the Klan would seek the support of a dimmo feeble minded enough to make racist attacks on people of his own race - to mindless for even them
Care to explain yourself?


The British Government has colluded with Assad, the Saudis... and many other mass murderers and in doing so they have created a massive refugee problem
Care to explain the collusion with Assad? Does it start with "Once upon a time"?

At the height of the Homs massacre, when snipers were competing for cigarettes by shooting mothers through the babies they were carring in their arms with one bullet, it transpited that Britain had licenced an order for sniper ammunition to Syria which could have been used to train those snipers
This accusation has not a scrap of evidence to back it up. Would you like me to remind you of the most excellent summary from Teribus on the subject?
I suppose it is progress of a sort because the last three times you have dredged up this very old thread you insisted it was a fact. Now you use the weasel words "could have"
Now we are closing our doors to that problem and have sacrificed the future and the well-being of the British people by exiting Europe in order to carry out that viciously inhuman act
care to explain that statement in detail so we can attempt to understand what you are saying@

Refugee and sanctuary mean what they mean, whatever the politicians tell us.

Let me correct that for you.Refugee and sanctuary mean what they mean under The Convention drafted and signed by the United Nations Conference of Plenipotentiaries on the Status of Refugees and Stateless Persons, held at Geneva from 2 to 25 July 1951. The Conference was convened pursuant to General Assembly resolution 429
(V) of 14 December 1950. The Convention was adopted on 28 July 1951; in accordance with Article 43, it entered into force on 22 April 1954. The Protocol was adopted on 31 January 1967; it entered into force on 4 October 1967 in accordance with its Article VIII.States Parties (as of April 2015)
Total number of States Parties to the 1951 Convention: 145
Total number of States Parties to the 1967 Protocol: 146
States Parties to both the Convention and Protocol: 142
States Parties to one or both of these instruments: 148
States Parties to the 1951 Convention only:
Madagascar, Saint Kitts and Nevis
States Parties to the 1967 Protocol only:
Cabo Verde, United States of America, Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)

It is of course a total waste of my time telling you this because you can never accept you are totally incorrect. you simply resort to insults and bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 06:57 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 07:11 AM
"To Accuse me of being a member of the klu klus klan"
Nah Jim, I think you're wrong. If our resident Right-Wing Extremist was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, he'd at least be able to spell its name correctly.
As Nigs the Nitpicker never seems to want to nitpick what his Extreme-Right cronies post, I just thought I'd help him out.

I have, recently, corrected comments by Iains. So your comment is worthless.
At least it has avoided your normal practice of using crude invective to try to make your point.
Maybe you are learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 12:30 AM

"Maybe you are learning"

Maybe. If it's a fact, at least it would demonstrate that I have the capacity to learn. Your continued nitpicking, despite your being repeatedly censured for it over a long period by other posters, clearly demonstrates your lack of capacity in that regard.

At least it has avoided your normal practice of using crude invective to try to make your point."

Words are just words. Any 'crude invective' I may occasionally use (and it is indeed occasional, your claim that it's 'normal' is simply a deceitful attempt to 'take the high moral ground' and therefore beneath contempt) is put there deliberately in order to achieve an effect - successfully, it would appear.

In any discussion, I have considerably less interest in others' use of 'crude invective' than I have in the quality of the ideas and opinions they express. I'm not a Puritan, and if an occasional expletive helps someone to express themselves, so be it. Experience has made me adult enough to accept their need to express themselves in that way, even though others seize upon the fact of that use (or mis-use) of language in a vain and deceitful effort to detract from the quality and validity of the argument being put forward, by 'taking the high moral ground' over language rather than addressing the issue itself. And, of course, attacking the words others use is far easier than disproving the point they're making.

So carry on nitpicking if you wish - be my guest. Nitpicking others' choice of words - 'crude invective' or otherwise - or their typos, or their genuine mis-spellings, or their failure to notice changes made by auto-text, proves nothing, it's just evidence of your own paucity of counter-argument, and an immature need on your part to score points. Very childish, very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 02:39 AM

Iains seems tied up in determining what we are obliged to do. However I am more interested in what is the right thing to do. For the refugees, for the economic migrants and for the country. And in my view, that is to let them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 03:04 AM

Mine too, David. It's what any decent, honourable person would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM

As i pointed out earlier, a representative of the UN WAS INTERVIEWED ON RADIO 4 and made the comment that none of us know whether all the refugees want to stay permenantly or temporarily.
We have been lucky enough to born in the affluent west,it could be any one of us that could have had the misfortune to be born in a place that we need refuge from, how about some compassion some concern

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM

Once asylum seekers are categorized as refugees their status is protected, as are they. An asylum seeker is a type of migrant and may be a refugee, a displaced person, but not an economic migrant. Migrants are not necessarily asylum seekers. A person becomes an asylum seeker by making a formal application for the right to remain in another country and keeps that status until the application has been concluded. The relevant immigration authorities of the country of asylum determine whether the asylum seeker will be granted protection and become an officially recognised refugee or whether asylum will be refused and asylum seeker becomes an illegal immigrant who has to leave the country and may even be deported. The asylum seeker may be recognised as a refugee and given refugee status if the person's circumstances fall into the definition of "refugee" according to the 1951 Refugee Convention or other refugee laws, such as the European Convention on Human Rights – if asylum is claimed within the European Union. However signatories to the refugee convention create their own policies for assessing the protection status of asylum seekers, and the proportion of asylum applicants who are rejected varies from country to country and year to year.
There are also terrorists seeking entry by masquerading as asylum seekers, why else did certain memnbersof the schengen zone reintroduce border checks?

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control_en

About time some of you woke up and realized the world is not full of fluffy bunnies.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

Supposing we all agree(novel approach i realise) that

1) these people are deserving of compassion
2) we can't take every person displaced, whoever the fuck displaced them
3) through the united nations - can't we do like we did after the second world war and help people back to safety


I know what some of you are going to say. We didn't do a brilliant job after WW2 - we sent back people to Stalin's tender mercies. but surely this is a case for giving good intentions a bit of pro active muscle.

Or is that contentious?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

Iains is perfectly correct. An asylum seeker has to be processed in case they are not being truthful and are here for other purposes.
An unknown arrival to our shores may have a serious criminal record, and/or be a risk to us in many ways.

About ten years ago I was asked by a church organisation to befriend a young Cameroonian lad who had arrived here from Sweden (of all places!) where he had been accepted as a student. He requested asylum saying that he had been politically active against the Cameroonian regime, and had been threatened with death. (He hadn't asked Sweden to accept him!)

The church concerned housed him for free with a Christian family, and he was fed and clothed. (An asylum seeker is not allowed to seek work, but receives a tiny amount on which to live.)

Eventually, his application was processed, and the Home Office found he was not in any danger, had lied about several things and was merely seeking UK residency. He had been in trouble with the Police in Cameroon and was definitely not a suitable person to have living here.

When he told me all about his asylum failure, he grinned, winked and said at least he'd had a try! I wasn't particularly amused.
He was deported shortly afterwards.
He was not a fluffy bunny, that's for sure.

My husband's character and history was examined by the Home Office, including references from his Embassy and his employer at the Port of Abidjan, where he'd found work as a security guard. I think this was right. He could have been a Muslim terrorist, a thief, even a murderer...

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 06:50 AM

through the united nations - can't we do like we did after the second world war and help people back to safety.

We are: To name but two!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k54q4qVWWik


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8U7Gkmpjmw

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 07:09 AM

Sure BWM, but the country does not seem to be run by decent honourable people unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 09:52 AM

"Iains is perfectly correct. An asylum seeker has to be processed in case they are not being truthful and are here for other purposes."
So people fleeing wars we halped to cause have to remain in the swamps that pass for refugee camps until the paperwork is carried out !
I'll try to remember that Sen

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 09:58 AM

"So people fleeing wars we halped to cause have to remain in the swamps that pass for refugee camps until the paperwork is carried out !"

Where are these swamps? I am sure others would like to see them as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 10:07 AM

WELCOME TO REFUGEE HILTON
SORRY - WE'RE FULL

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM

AND WHEN YOU FINALLY MAKE IT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 10:19 AM

So no swamps, as suspected!

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM

"So no swamps, as suspected!"
You wouldn't, would you
"Swamps" is a popular word for the appalling conditions you and Sen seem happy to submit your fellow human beings to
No mention of allowing their children to drown to keep them out either
Why does than not surprise me ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 10:45 AM

Data on fluffy bunnies: The reason checks and interrogations occur in the UK
An examining officer may stop and question individuals entering and leaving the country through ports, airports, international rail stations and the border area. When necessary they may also detain and search individuals. The aim is to determine whether that person appears to be someone who is or has been concerned in the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism.

In the year ending June 2017, a total of 17,501 persons were examined under this power in Great Britain, a fall of 26% compared with the previous year. This continues the decline of the use of the power in recent years. This was the lowest number of examinations since the data collection began in 2011.
Throughout the same period, the number of detentions following examination decreased by 14% from 1,760 in the previous year to 1,522 in the year ending June 2017.
Operation of police powers under the Terrorism Act 2000 and subsequent legislation:

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 11:01 AM

Seems to put paid to the inhuman conditions imposed on refugees then and back to hiding behind the paperwork
Rule Britannia
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 01:15 PM

I think that the only thing we have learned from the "keep them out" crowd here is that anybody who shows sympathy for those who have fallen victim to Britain's predatory policies abroad are "fluffy bunnies"
Makes you proud not to be a Christian
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 01:42 PM

So why don't we process everybody in the same way? In what way do refugees, asylum seekers, and economic migrants pose a greater threat? Of is it just that you think they are an easy target. The majority or terrorist attacks in the UK in recent years have been carried out by British citizens. Most of them British born. And it wasn't an asylum seeker who took their 13 year old child on a pro-fascist demonstration on Westminster Bridge at the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM

Seems to put paid to the inhuman conditions imposed on refugees then and back to hiding behind the paperwork
I think that the only thing we have learned from the "keep them out" crowd here is that anybody who shows sympathy for those who have fallen victim to Britain's predatory policies abroad are "fluffy bunnies"

Oh Dear! Rational debate stands no chance against an anglophobic mind.
Who is the keeping them out crowd? and where are these inhuman conditions placed on refugees? and what are these predatory policies.
The UK has deployed troops to aid the civilian population in southern Sudan during the ongoing civil war and donated 103 million in aid. Nothing very predatory about that, is there?
Of course you are the halfwit that was going to steal peoples houses to rehouse the homeless. Despite The European Convention on Human Rights, in Protocol 1, article 1. But the niceties of the law never bother you do they? Were not you the idiot saying travellers are allowed to break the law? (From: Jim Carroll
2017 - 08:24 AM)

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7613/CBP-7613.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 02:39 PM

So why don't we process everybody in the same way? In what way do refugees, asylum seekers, and economic migrants pose a greater threat?

The legal status of refugees has been dealt with ad nauseam. Asylum seekers have no way of reaching the UK without making prior landfall outside their own country.Therefore their legal status should have been already established. Economic migrants, unless EU citizens, have to satisfy the necessary criteria before being allowed entry. Everyone is processed coming in by ship or air. Unless aliens are processed how can a potential threat be recognised. Even with stringent vetting and profiling some dodgy people can enter.
If I have to explain why aliens can pose a potential threat I do believe further debate is futile. Do we not have a sufficiency of home grown terrorists? Research by The Soufan Centre estimated that at least 425 British Isis members have so far returned to the UK – the largest cohort in Europe.
But there are fears many have “disappeared” from the view of security services, who will not publicly confirm how many returnees have been jailed or are being tracked.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 02:39 PM

"Who is the keeping them out crowd? and where are these inhuman conditions placed on refugees? "
Brecxit was designed to keep them out - now May and her ministers are boasting that they are suceeding
You have been given several examples of the appalling conditions they ar attempting to escape from and those they face when they arrive in Britain   
07 Jan 19 - 10:07 AM
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM
Pretending that they aren't appalling makes you people the inhuman individuals taht you are
"Were not you the idiot saying travellers are allowed to break the law?"
Waste of time my asking you to link to this claim unless you are echoing yoiur previous stance of letting survivors a massive fire tragedy sleep rough rather than allow them the use of unused private property
What the **** have the Sudanese got to doi with the Iraninan and Syrian refugees that are being refused entry - and those whose children are being dragged from the sea dead rather than allow them the sanctuary any civilised nation is entitled to give
THREE YEARS OLD BUT THINGS HAVE GOT FAR WORSE
I'm well used to your strutting and bluffing - I'm appalled at who you have dragged down to your level
You represent perfectly the smug indifference of the comfortable - nothing else
Enough of this - I think you people have shown where your coming from quite adequately
Over and out
Jim Carroll
]

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 19 - 03:48 PM

Waste of time my asking you to link to this claim

Not at all! You see I can always back my claims. I still await your being able to. You call me racist and any other insults that spring to your mind, but despite numerous requests you have never yet managed to substantiate even one of your erroneous claims. You just resort to further insult and bluster.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM No One is above the law.
Quote "what else can they(travellers) do but break the law,"

from the same thread: Quote: "rather than allow them the use of unused private property"
As was carefully explained to you the rule of law does not allow the requisitioning of property without prior consultation, consent and compensation, unless under the extremities of wartime. Should that procedure have been attempted the resultant lawsuits would cost the government many times more than giving all the homeless a brand new house.
That is the reality and no matter how much you bleat, that reality is unchanged. Deal with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 02:58 AM

If you can't understand that, unless Travellers break the law by camping illegally they have nowhere else to stop and no way of staying alive than wwe have nothinbg to say to each other
The same with the survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire - there as here, you support the refsal to allow them the use of empty private property - inhuman
Travellers both in Britain and Ireland are in the process of being ethnically cleansed - they are thrown of land where they camp and are demonstrated against wen they move into houses
A few have been ghettoised, but most are forced to be constantly on the move - no sanitation, no running water, no electricity, no chance of permanent employment, no opportunity to educate their children... it is little wonder that some of them break the law that fails to defend their rights as human beings
They are, in fact refugees within their own homeland
You want to discuss Travellers, do so in those terms - not in your nasty establishment rule book terms
Whether you people accept it or not, these are human beings, not criminals, not "problems" - men, women and children
I don't believe you will be the slightest degree interested but
A RECOMMENDATION
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
THE REALITY OF ETHNIC CLEANSING

There are dozen of examples like these dating back twenty odd years - things are getting worse
Now instead of your personal and rcist abuse, how about responding to them
Otherwise, take your inhuman racism elsewhere
Sick to the stomach of you polluting this forum with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

Iains says:

"As was carefully explained to you the rule of law does not allow the requisitioning of property without prior consultation, consent and compensation, unless under the extremities of wartime."

Explain that please to the people whose homes and businesses have been or are being compulsorily purchased to make way for HS2. Be sure to emphasise the bit about consent.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:13 AM

The rule of law is the rule of law. There are no exceptions for minorities that refuse to live in the 21st century. To call someone racist for supporting the rule of law merely highlights your own ignorance. When you have no counter argument that displays any kind of rational foundation you spit out your dummy and become an embarrassing bore. The only racist on this forum is you with your pronounced anglophobia. Travellers are as subject to the law of the land as anyone else. They are an anachronism and need to integrate with the rest of society. Society does nor need to adapt to accommodate them. Travellers are neither refugees nor asylum seekers and therefore have no place on this thread. Why do you not open a thread on travellers instead of inflicting your asinine ideas on the sensible people on this forum?

By the way for the 10th time now I will ask you to explain why you keep using the epithet racist when describing me. You will find nothing I have posted on this forum to justify your continual insults.
Try to prove me wrong by quoting my own words, not what you think I said.
We will have zero response, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:23 AM

"They are an anachronism and need to integrate with the rest of society. "

Those are your own words Iains. And although I was not convinced before, I now think that Jim's epithet does indeed apply to you. That sentence could easily have come from 1930s Germany, or 15th century Spain, applied to a different group.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:59 AM

"The rule of law is the rule of law. "
And ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing
What kind of individual can describe an entire community as "an anachronism" - that this the stuff that filled the extermination chambers of Auschwitz
Who the hell are you do dictate how people should live - who next Hassidic Jews, devout Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses.. that is fascism in the extreme
Even if they wished, (and there's no reason that they should) Travellers couldn't "integrate because of the good. law abiding citizens who wouldn't let them
HERE
Here
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/discriminating-against-gypsies-and-travellers-is-common-across-britain-report-finds-a6919651.html
HERE
HERE
Take your racist shit elsewhere

"I will ask you to explain why you keep using the epithet racist when describing m"
Anybody who resorts to anti Irish "bog-trotting" abuse is a racist - you do it regularly and the fact you do it to someone of your own race is an indication of something seriously wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:59 AM

"The rule of law is the rule of law. "
And ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing
What kind of individual can describe an entire community as "an anachronism" - that this the stuff that filled the extermination chambers of Auschwitz
Who the hell are you do dictate how people should live - who next Hassidic Jews, devout Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses.. that is fascism in the extreme
Even if they wished, (and there's no reason that they should) Travellers couldn't "integrate because of the good. law abiding citizens who wouldn't let them
HERE
Here
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/discriminating-against-gypsies-and-travellers-is-common-across-britain-report-finds-a6919651.html
HERE
HERE
Take your racist shit elsewhere

"I will ask you to explain why you keep using the epithet racist when describing m"
Anybody who resorts to anti Irish "bog-trotting" abuse is a racist - you do it regularly and the fact you do it to someone of your own race is an indication of something seriously wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 05:31 AM

They are an anachronism like bodgers, coopers, blacksmiths and rag and bone men. Seasonal work and flogging pegs no longer provides a living. In Scotland since the 1950s, the majority of Highland Travellers have settled down into organized campsites or regular houses. If they can do it, why not the rest?

A paper by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, 2007, found that 61% of married English Gypsy women and 81% of Irish Travellers had experienced domestic abuse. And a significant number of those women who had reported the abuse appeared to have suffered more severe and sustained violence than those within mainstream communities.
This is a way of life you wish to preserve? Shame on you!

prior consultation, consent and compensation,

If the compulsory purchase is deemed to be in the public interest it over rides the concerns of the landowner, should agreement not be reached. The actual compulsory purchase procedure is covered by the Acquisition of Land Act 1981 (as amended).

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 05:40 AM

So its changed now from "extremities of wartime" to "deemed to be in the public interest". It is much more in the public interest to house desperate refugees than it is to build a railway track, in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jos
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

Blacksmiths an anachronism? That may come as a surprise to many a horse owner. And I believe there may still be a market for wrought-iron gates.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 05:49 AM

"They are an anachronism like bodgers, coopers, blacksmiths and rag and bone men."
THey are not a trade - they are people who have lived their lives as they do for millenia
There is no reason they cannot continue to do so People like you wouldn't allow them to settle, the ghettoes that do exist are not fir for human habitations
Brutalise a people as you do and some of them react by becoming brute
The worst crimes in our society are committed by the settled indigeonous population - from murder and peddling drugs to knife and gun crimes, incest and paedophelia
If Travellers become involved it becomes a Traveller crime - they are never described as "settled crimes"
If travelles leave mess, as they do, it becomes Traveller mess -yet the worst mess up to that destroying out planet is from the settled communities

Simple question - how would you feel if the Travellers you wish to deprive of their lifestyle were settled in your area, how would you react ?
If you are disingenuous ebnough to say you wouldn't mind, work your way through the links I put up and see how the general public reacts
Go look at what happened yo Dale Farm - originally a rubbish dump, then used by Travellers - mass eviction and now back to a rubbish dump for locals
Your attitude to Travellers is as racist as it would be if it was applied to West Indians or Asians... your openly confirm your racism by constantly hurling anti-Irish abuse at me (a born in Brit British citizen, as were both my parents
If you object to being called a racist, stop openly peddling racism
And stop making Travellers refugees in their own native country
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM

There was once a blacksmith in most villages. Now there are very very few. Blacksmiths do not shoe horses, that is the job of a farrier.
Anyone in the UK can set up as a blacksmith, to be a farrier you must be both qualified and registered. I would certainly have not allowed any of my horses near a blacksmith. In fact farriers have increased in numbers in recent years.There are around nine recognised schools and about 25000 registered farriers in the UK.

It is much more in the public interest to house desperate refugees than it is to build a railway track, in my view.

I would find it hard to fault your point of view.

There is no reason they cannot continue to do:
Well let us analyse that assertion:
1)criminality. A 2014 Irish Penal Reform Trust study produced in relation to Travellers in prison found a disproportionate number of Travellers are incarcerated. Men are between five and 11 times more likely to be jailed while, for women, it's 18 to 22 times more likely.
2)The one sure connection to crime is poverty.The Traveller association with criminality is relatively recent. The decline in the demand for tinsmiths, carpets and second-hand furniture has hit them hard financially.(Ireland)
3) lack of access to health and education.
4)The suicide rate for Traveller women is six times higher than the general populace. For men, it is seven times higher. Infant mortality is 3.5 times higher, life expectancy is more than 15 years less than average. As for education, two-thirds of Travellers have left school by the age of 15.
5)In theory, there is nothing stopping Travellers from staying in school. But the biggest obstacle of all is societal expectation. If your siblings didn't finish primary school, would you? Not to mention the practical difficulties of doing so if your family is moving around.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=1079

So by allowing their way of life to continue you subject the children to poor health, grinding poverty, high rates of depression, higher suicide rates, poor to non existant education, very restricted job opportunitie sand a severely reduced life expectancy.
Treat children in normal communities in the same way and they would be taken into care for abuse of their human rights.
The solution is to integrate them into the community so they have the same expectations and opportunities as the rest of the community.
You by glorifying the traveller lifestyle condemn their children to a life of misery.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM

I glorify nothing - Traveller lifestyle is a fact and has been for thousands of years - far from glorious, tanks to persecution
There is not a single crime you can mention that isn't an ingrained part of settled life - not one, yet there are crimes that are not part of Traveller life and are exclusive to settled living
Traveller crimes are largely ones of need rather than of acquisition - from out=r own experiences, Travellers a=re not an acquisitive people
Rubbish
Travellers lave a mess where they stay - the settled community pollutes society as a whole - our rives are polluted with industrial chemicals, the seas are full of toxic rubbish that is gradually killing off marine life, our beaches are covered with litter....
THe settleed community is in a position to dispose of rubbish on an organised basis - Travellers are not in this position
During the various dustmens strikes our streets weer full of rotting, rat-infested rubbish because our system broke down
The "normal" community prioduces thousands of time polluting rubbish than ever the Travellers could
Domestic abuse idf a nationwide major problem as is child poverty and neglect - now reaching crisis point in the poorer arts of the UK
Childeren are far better cared for in Traveller communities because they have retained the importance of the family farmor strongly than has happened in the settled communities
Knif and gun crimes and gang warfare is virtually unknown among Travellers, it is rife on the streets of Britain
Prostitution, paedophelia, rape, sex trafficking, incest... features of life in the settled communities - largely absent in Travelling communities
A few years ago, a rogue Traveller family hit the headlines with it's supposed "slave" practices, while "normal" Brits have helped re-introduce international slavery by filling its shops with goods produced under slave conditions
Unemployed workers are now being forced to take work for wages which drop their living standards to below the poverty level

Now - unless you are prepared to dispute any of this with anything other than persona abuse, please take your racist stereotyping elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM

Now - unless you are prepared to dispute any of this with anything other than persona abuse, please take your racist stereotyping elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Claim "Traveller lifestyle is a fact and has been for thousands of years"
An estimated time of divergence between the settled population and Travellers was set at a minimum of 8 generations ago, with generations at 30 years, hence 240 years and a maximum of 14 generations or 420 years ago. The best fit was estimated at 360 years ago, giving an approximate date in the 1650s.

Claim:Traveller crimes are largely ones of need rather than of acquisition.
A crime is a crime. Traveller Men are between five and 11 times more likely to be jailed while, for women, it's 18 to 22 times more likely.
The statistics speak for themselves.
Claim:Domestic abuse idf a nationwide major problem as is child poverty and neglect - now reaching crisis point in the poorer arts of the UK
61% of married English Gypsy women and 81% of Irish Travellers had experienced domestic abuse.
In the wider community, The UK Living with Abuse organisation quotes statistics from the British Crime Survey Statistical Bulletin that domestic abuse “will affect one in four women and one in six men in their lifetime”.(25% and 16.6%) A hugely significant disparity.
claim:Childeren are far better cared for in Traveller communities because they have retained the importance of the family farmor strongly than has happened in the settled communities
This is why Infant mortality rates for traveller children are 3.6 times higher than the rest of the population. Traveller women are more than three times as likely to miscarry or have a stillborn child as other pregnant Irish women.Travellers are more likely than members of the settled community to die from any given complaint. In particular, Travellers’ health is affected by accidents, metabolic disorders in the under 14 age group, respiratory ailments and some congenital disorders. It is estimated that 1% of Irish Travellers carry genetic disorders which may result in health risks for children of consanguine relationships. These disorders are common to the settled population, but occur in the Traveller population at a greater rate.There is also a culture among Traveller men to consult Traveller women about health related issues, rather than visit a doctor or hospital. Currently only 13 per cent of Traveller children complete secondary school, compared with 92 per cent of the general population.
Claim:A few years ago, a rogue Traveller family hit the headlines with it's supposed "slave" practices,
Eleven members of an Traveller family with Irish roots have been jailed in the UK for violently exploiting at least 18 victims of modern slavery.

The Rooney family, who were based on Traveller sites in Lincoln, targeted homeless people and men with learning disabilities to work and live in squalid conditions for up to 26 years. Their offences were described in court as “chilling in their mercilessness”
The victims were kept in caravans without running water or toilet facilities, Nottingham Crown Court heard, while their captors wore Rolex watches, drove expensive cars and lived in gleaming homes that were “palatial in comparison” to their workers’ conditions.
Judge Timothy Spencer said the difference in their lives was “akin to the gulf between medieval royalty and the peasantry” as he jailed 11 members of the family for up to 15 years on Tuesday.
I do believe the sentencing gave the lie to "supposed" and judged it to be a reality, despite your dissembling.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM

"An estimated time of divergence between the settled population and Travellers was set at a minimum of 8 generations ago, "
Travellers have been identified as existing apart from the settled communities as far back as over 1000 years ago
About five years ago, these researches caused them to be identifies as a unique racial group
W"61% of married English Gypsy women and 81% of Irish Travellers had experienced domestic abuse."
As I said, domestic abuse is common to settled life, cramped living conditions and impoverished life-syyles have been attached to both
Traveller conditions have exacerbated this among Travellers, but, despite the fact that it seldom gets reported, if is a long established feature of the lesser well off communities
OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS REPORT

"This is why Infant mortality rates for traveller children are 3.6 times higher than the rest of the population."
Nothing to do with having no access to running water, toilet facilities or easy method of disposing of daily rubbish of course
Utter nonsense

""Eleven members of an Traveller family with Irish roots have been jailed in the UK for violently exploiting at least 18 victims of modern slavery."

That's what I said- one family
Our economy is now based on being able to fill our shops with goods produced under slave conditions
Everybody who buys from Penney's and the like is part of the rise in International slavery
Unemployed British workers are now being forced to take jobs whose wages are not sufficient to feed their families -
ROWNTREE TRUST REPORT

Now - if that's all you have to offer, we're finished
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 09:59 AM

HERE
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/vietnam/11770335/Be-honest-you-dont-care-if-your-pretty-dress-was-made-by-child-slaves.html

HERE
https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/sourcing/traidcraft-report-reveals-appalling-tea-worker-conditions/567336.article

HERE

HERE
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/domestic-violence-children-home-government-provision-support-decrease-uk-a8527186.html

HERE

HERE

HERE

How far do you want to take this?
There'sw pages and pages of these examples of Britain's involvement in modern slavery
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 10:45 AM

Claim: Travellers have been identified as existing apart from the settled communities as far back as over 1000 years ago.
Wrong! Your previous claim was "Traveller lifestyle is a fact and has been for thousands of years" I see you carefully overlook your previous statement of supposed fact.
In 2011, researchers at the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin and the University of Edinburgh analyzed DNA samples from 40 Travellers. The study provided evidence that Irish Travellers are a distinct Irish ethnic minority, who have been distinct from the settled Irish community for at least 1000 years. But!!!!
In 2017 a further genetic study using profiles of 50 Irish Travellers, 143 European Roma, 2232 settled Irish, 2039 British and 6255 European or worldwide individuals confirmed ancestral origin within the general Irish population. An estimated time of divergence between the settled population and Travellers was set at a minimum of 8 generations ago, with generations at 30 years, hence 240 years and a maximum of 14 generations or 420 years ago. The best fit was estimated at 360 years ago, giving an approximate date in the 1650s. This date coincides remarkably well with the final destruction of Gaelic society following the 1641 Rebellion and during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms in which Cromwell's forces devastated the country.
(note the dates of the two claims and the size of sample:)
2011   40    samples
2017   10,719 samples

That's what I said- one family
NO what you said was::A few years ago, a rogue Traveller family hit the headlines with it's supposed "slave" practices,

Can you not remember what you said previously? Why deny it, everyone can see what you said above


How far do you want to take this?
As far as it takes for you to check your facts, post accurately and desist from the constant abuse and accusations of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 11:23 AM

"Wrong! Your previous claim was "Traveller lifestyle is a fact and has been for thousands of years"
Treavellers have been travelling fro thousands of years - they have becom identified as a specific group dating back a thousand years by DNA sampling
The Irish DNA sampling is only a part of the research carried out

" it's supposed "slave" practices,"
The case was based on the evidence of a couple of victims - most of those found refused to give evidence saying they were taken off the streets and given jobs - they refused to give credence to the term "slavery" which was an establishment and media cocotion

This is how the representative of the Traveller community reacted to the case

"In a statement, Pavee Point Traveller & Roma Centre welcomed the sentencing and said it condemns the exploitation of vulnerable human beings .
“The people involved in this exploitation are devoid of all humanity,” said Pavee Point co-director Martin Collins.
“We hope this case won’t be used as a stick to beat Travellers with, as Travellers are appalled and sickened at this case,” he said."

You make it a Traveller issue just as Martin Collins suggested might happen

You attitude to Travellers is as racist as it is to my choosuing to live in Ireland

You have ignored every singly point I have mad other than this, which you choose to distort

Fact - there is not one 'Traveller' crime that is a well established and far greater aspect of settled criminality - not one

Finished here
Jim Carroll
pll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM

Oh dear it does get rather tiresome correcting virtually everything you say. Congratulations on changing the parameters of the argument when you have clearly been proved wrong. Humanity has been travelling ever since "Homo Erectus " found he could balance on two legs and go walkabout 1.8 million years ago, but that was not the argument was it?
The argument was about how long ago irish travellers diverged from the general population. The latest evidence I quoted was 2017. You in your rush to argue neglected to read the remainder of the article and only quoted work from 2007. Rather remiss of you, doncha think?

You attitude to Travellers is as racist as it is to my choosuing to live in Ireland.

Please demonstrate what is racist about pointing out the obvious deficiencies of the traveller lifestyle. After all I have said nothing that is not supported by extensive peer reviewed literature.
Some further statistics:On average there are ten times more driving fatalities within the Traveller community. At 22%, this represents the most common cause of death among Traveller males. Some 10% of Traveller children die before their second birthday, compared to just 1% of the general population. In Ireland, 2.6% of all deaths in the total population were for people aged under 25, versus 32% for the Travellers. In addition, 80% of Travellers die before the age of 65.

By any metric being a traveller is not conducive to having a healthy lifestyle. Yet still you wish to preserve it as a way of life.

Fact - there is not one 'Traveller' crime that is a well established and far greater aspect of settled criminality - not one
I am afraid I cannot understand what you are trying to say. Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM

Who is being unreasonable I ask myself?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tipperary-council-will-not-be-providing-stables-or-paddocks-for-traveller-horses-
https://www.thejournal.ie/travelling-community-houses-tipperary-4275175-Oct2018/

and back to the thread:
https://www.reuters.com/article/serco-group-contract/serco-mears-win-2-9-bln-stg-uk-housing-contracts-for-asylum-seekers-idUSL8N

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 05:42 AM

Ironically, the thread that Raggy opened to divert us away is now being used as a hate-platform against the Travelling people - people who have occupied a major part of mine and Pat's lives for about half a century - From Jeannie Robertson and the Stewarts, who were among those who introduced us to Traditional singing, to the thirty odd pleasurable and educational years we spent recording Travellers in the UK - all now energetically being depicted as "slave owners", thieves, disease ridden and untrustworthy anachronisms not fit for human society

You stupid, stupid, stupid little man. Are you totally incapable of understanding what has been said without putting your unique,vicious, insulting, erroneous spin on what has been said.
You are a disgrace!

Try and redeem yourself by offering proof to substantiate your deranged tirade. But as usual you will not because you cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

Iains, I will make an exception to my rule and address a point directly to you. I have offered Jim the advice of ignoring you and your posts. It is plainly obvious to all looking on that you see Jim's posts as many others see yours. I offer you the same advice. Just ignore Jim and his posts. Mudcat will become a much happier and quieter place.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM

D the G Keeping silent means I tacitly accept his vile tirades that are so obviously directly aimed at myself.

I will only make one further point on the matter. I try to make my posts factual, accurate and honest.I try to make it clear when offering an opinion as opposed to facts.

By the way the recent contributions above have developed it is clear who is trying to deliberately distort what has been said, and follow some perverted agenda of their own construction, purely to provoke dissent.

This same tactic is followed from thread to thread to thread. Hardly a surprise the mods get sick of it and close them. If a post cannot be made without lies and distortions it should not be posted at all.

I would draw your attention to the repeated requests I have made for jim to substantiate his abusive labeling.

A response has never been   made because the allegations are lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugees and asylum seekers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 01:06 PM

Stop sniveling Iains
Everything you said is on line and archived
You are what you have told us you are
Jim Carroll