Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM And the Chancellor appoints the governor of the Bank of England; Apr 28, 2019 - The Bank of England got its Brexit forecasts wrong, according to ... Governor Carney Note, not a think tank of left wing remainers but an official body. Anymore for tennis? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: peteglasgow Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM increasingly it seems like we are being led by a group of incompetent fanatics engaged in a crazy project to remove us from our european ties into an impoverished and ignored relationship as the 52nd state of trump's america first USA. WTFF? surely this is precisely what no sane citizen would have wanted. yet here we are, with our next PM making up stories while brandishing a haddock and kissing a big, fat, orange, racist arse. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:19 PM Any comment about an official government department saying that it will cost an arm and a leg to the UK economy. Note, not a think tank of left wing remainers but an official body. Unicorns and pie in sky anyone? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 18 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM One of the interesting things about the vote in the commons today to make proroguing Parliament more difficult arises from the observation that several government ministers abstained. Now, Boris has said that the cabinet he picks will consist of pro-Brexit enthusiasts - he thinks the remainder inclined ministers have blocked Brexit. But that forgets the convention that Government ministers (and PPS etc) vote in accordance with the Cabinet decisions. As a result they vote in line with the cabinet consensus, or in rare cases abstain. Those committed enough to resign are quite rare. So: by forming a cabinet exclusively of pro-Brexit people you actually decrease the pro-Brexit vote in the house: the 'remainers' on the Government payroll are released to vote as they wish, and the pro-Brexit are constrained to vote the way they would anyway. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Jul 19 - 01:41 PM Forecast is a forecast Truth is truth The more astute among us recognise there is a vital difference |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 18 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM Another uncomfortable truth came from the Office of Budget Responsibility. To the tune of £30 billion. Will this forecast from an official government body also be dismissed |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 18 Jul 19 - 12:03 PM .There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers. Here is one of them: 498 MPs voted to approve the second reading of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 to allow the Prime Minister to invoke Article 50 unconditionally. A failure to agree the terms of separation would result in a no deal. This can be defined as a failure by the European Union and the UK to negotiate and conclude an agreement setting out the arrangements for the UK's withdrawal before the Treaties cease to apply. Now for one of those uncomfortable truths:How many of those MPs were closet remainers and lied to their constituents in order to take office? This should prove interesting come re-selection time for re-election. The electorate will extract it's revenge, make no mistake. Support will be from the Labour heartlands the Tory shires and wholesale desertion from the Libdems. All Dysoned up by the Brexit party. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 19 - 10:46 AM The shape of politics to come was has been set in the US with Republicans, referring to a black politician, stood up and chanted "send her home" Reminiscent of a Nuremberg Rally Anybody who believes this has nothing to do with Brexit and Farage's poster - dream on Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 17 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers. Which is why one in particular keeps trying to get it closed. Luckily, the moderation team are on to him and remove the ill concealed attempts to shut it down. Just ignore him and let the team do their bit to keep this important topic out of the cess pool. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM "Lefties" A TIMELY REMINDER OF RIGHT AND LEFT AND ANOTHER Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jul 19 - 02:17 AM "Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it." Absolutely Beats leaving home like a sulky teenager any day The EU is a combination of states dominated by a failing system - one that can no longer cater fo all its citizens - the rapidly increasing gap between haves and have nots is an obvious indication of how this is impacting on the people This system will have to change or it will collapse Brexit and Trumpism are ploys to divert attention from the effects - "blame someone else for our failures" Immigrants and Muslims 'the enemy within', have taken the place of Germany's 'Jewish menace' - go dig out Farage's poster to see that message written in big letters Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM Do you see a pattern forming here? Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey? items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to. Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it. As Dave said, being outside that group and squeezed between such a superstate, the US, China and Russia - for example - does not sound a bright move. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM DMcG Have you heard of Robert the Bruce and the spider. A little history from a previous post of mine The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957 By the Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union; 1991), which went into force on November 1, 1993, the European Economic Community was renamed the European Community and was embedded into the EU as the first of its three “pillars” The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) created the European Union as a single body of "three pillars". The pillars consist of the: 1) European Communities(the EEC), 2) Common Foreign and Security Policy 2) Cooperation in Justice and Home affairs. Do you see a pattern forming here? Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey? items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to. YThe pattern I see is evermore integration |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM Comparing what could happen in the future with what has already happened since the brexit vote is hardly comparing like with like. Besides which, if Europe does become a "superstate" with its own army, the UK will hardly be in a position to match them either economically or in military strength. I would say if there is any truth in that speculation, which is all it is, we would be in a much better position inside the club than outside. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM Those links - and the discussion on Galilleo - confuse countries/the EU with people. Yes, there are some senior people who want an army, or to end vetoes. But there are not the whole EU, and the article on taxation, for example, makes plain most countries are opposed. It is the same confusion with Galileo, which David C pointed out very clearly. "The UK" does not have expertise in this. Individuals do, and they could easily move elsewhere. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:02 PM And answer came there none The fact that Brexit has put Britain into free-fall seems to be an accepted fact, even by the arch-Brexiteers "When at first you can't succeed - talk about something else", seems to be the order of the day here Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 16 Jul 19 - 11:21 AM 1) Europe wants an army https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-14/france-maintains-goal-of-creating-a-european-army-minister 2)Call for EU federal superstate https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/690886/European-Union-Guy-Verhofstadt-MEP-Brexit-EU-superstate 3) EU wants to end veto on foreign policy and taxation and eventually end all vetoes https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/majority-voting-could-see-five-states-decide-eu-taxes-37898614.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ursula-von-der-leyen-eu-commission-president-foreign-policy-veto-qualified-major Three very good reasons for getting out of Dodge, and all three vehemently denied on here by remainiacs |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 16 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM It's even worse than that really. A lot of what is likely to happen is known and none of it is good. No one has yet come up with any good news as this thread and the ones before it attest. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 16 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM They voted for something with not the faintest clue of how they would be affected. Which is bad, but nothing compared to continuing to insist the unknown must happen. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM "”With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. " Any Government which does not base its policies on probable outcomes anddoes not plan in advance is not fit to hold office Any government who pushes through a policy based on a leap in the dark, like Brexit obviously was, deserved to be removed from politics altogether Nrexit has destabilised the future of Britain for at least two decades (admitted), has undermined the economy, driven away major industries, has divided the British people radically, particularly on the issue of race relations and has rendered the elected leadership totally impotent and at odds with each other It has divided the elected ruling party into warring factions which has made Britain virtually ungovernable over the last few years and now threatens to destroy what is left of Parliamentary democracy and break up the U.K altogether No possible decision on Brexit can begin to heal the damage that has already been done DAMAGE SO FAR Jim Caarroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 16 Jul 19 - 02:02 AM ”With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. To make forecasts a minimum data set is required, otherwise the exercise is guesswork, and hence futile.( as has been stated here many times)” And there we have it - confirmation, in two short sentences, of the sheer, unadorned stupidity of the Leave voter, from the mouth of our own arch-BrexShitter. They voted for something with not the faintest clue of how they would be affected. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:44 PM so why raise it in relation to Ireland, 1)Because as the Irish Times succinctly said a while back: "EU tax plan 'is a bigger threat to Ireland than Brexit" 2)Because the financial legislation is already in place or proposed and reasonably accurate forecasts can be made as to the future impact of such changes. Perhaps if Belfast was made a freeport after brexit those American companies most impacted by proposed EU tax harmonisation would simply relocate a hop skip and jump up the coast from Dublin With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. To make forecasts a minimum data set is required, otherwise the exercise is guesswork, and hence futile.( as has been stated here many times) |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:27 PM That doesn't scan - the syllable count is all wrong. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:14 PM seen elsewhere (Galileo) Galileo, (Galileo) Galileo, Galileo, Figaro magnifico But I'm just a poor EU, nobody loves me He's just a poor EU from a poor family Spare him the UK from this monstrosity Bismillah! We will not let you go! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:09 PM "the UK may have the only key to wind it up." Ireland is solidly in support of Europe and efforts by Ukip rejects who have attempted to dive a wedge between her and Europe have been totally rejected The overwhelming feeling here is that the problem is solely Britain and its threat to the Border Again, advice from a supporter of a policy which has all but destroyed British society and brought Parliamentary democracy to its knees really isn't needed You have persistently dismissed what may happen to Britain so why raise it in relation to Ireland, for whom you have shown "bogtrotter" level contempt? Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Raggytash Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:03 PM Interesting that the Irish economy grew by 8.4% last year according to reports on RTE |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 15 Jul 19 - 02:57 PM With regard to things like Galileo, EU companies will recruit British scientists and engineers working on it, holding out the promise of high salaries and shiny new French or German passports. The key people are very mobile. If I was younger I would go. I may even do so now if I can find the right niche. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 02:09 PM Ireland's position at number 33 is quite interesting because in terms of GDP per capita Ireland ranks about number 5 in the world rankings. Should the EU introduce its much touted tax harmonisation rules I suspect Ireland could be very heavily impacted. The distortion of Ireland's economic statistics (including GNI, GNP and GDP) by the tax practices of some multinationals, led the Central Bank of Ireland to propose an alternative measure (modified GNI or GNI*) to more accurately reflect the "true" state of the economy. Foreign-owned multinationals continue to contribute significantly to Ireland's economy, making up 14 of the top 20 Irish firms (by turnover), employing 23% of the private sector labour-force, and paying 80% of business taxes. Given the importance of US multinationals to Ireland's economy (80% of Irish multinational employment, and 14 of the 20 largest Irish firms), the passing of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 is a challenge to Ireland. Parts of the US TCJA are targeted at Irish multinational tax schemes (especially the move to a modern "territorial tax" system, the introduction of a lower FDII tax on intellectual property, and the counter-Irish GILTI tax regime). In addition, the EU's proposed Digital Sales Tax (and stated desire for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base), is also seen as an attempt to restrict the use of the Irish multinational tax schemes by US technology firms. These impending changes coupled with a potential no deal Brexit will impact the Irish economy very heavily. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM Galileo Project. a starting point. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/25/what-is-galileo-and-why-are-the-uk-and-eu-arguing-about-it |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM The EU have the resources to overcome problems - and industry-less Britain can hardly be described as essential to anybody any more Fact: In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people. Despite the decline since the 1970s, when manufacturing contributed 25% of UK GDP, the UK is currently the ninth largest manufacturing nation in the world. Gross Domestic Product of United Kingdom grew 1.4% in 2018 compared to last year. This rate is 4 -tenths of one percent less than the figure of 1.8% published in 2017. The GDP figure in 2018 was $2,828,640 million, leaving United Kingdom placed 5th in the ranking of GDP according to the International Monetary Fund. Ireland by contrast would rank no 33 |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Mrrzy Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:36 PM I love this thread, lots and lots of intelligent info and only a few childish insults, amazing. I read French and English (British?) papers but get way better analysis here. And while I'm a Mrrican and Trump yada yada, but I feel for you guys, really. But... 75 years of peace for Europe? What about the former Yugoslavia and all the wars in Africa and the Middle East being fought by European might today? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM Why spoil the story with a few facts DMcG? :-) |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM The suggestion that UK has the only key is extremely doubtful - is there the slightest evidence for this? According to the statement the agency issued: The cause of the technical incident is identified and recovery actions are implemented to ensure that the nominal service is resumed as soon as possible while safeguarding quality of the services. Galileo provides “initial services”, the phase that precedes the “full operational services” phase, since December 2016. Nominal Galileo redundant capabilities and associated service continuity functions are partially affected by on-going major deployment activities towards the Galileo “full operational services”. Some papers like the Express seem keen to make a meal of it. It does not sound anything out of the ordinary when moving from 'initial services' to 'full operational services'. Obviously, I am sure they would rather it had not happened' but it is common. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 19 - 11:15 AM "the UK may have the only key to wind it up." Little Brit gloating about other countries problems is hardly going to win them the friends they are going to need to make up for the mass exodus of British businesses The EU have the resources to overcome problems - and industry-less Britain can hardly be described as essential to anybody any more Maybe Dyson can help ? Whoops - nearly forgot - he's pissed off to Singapore Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:49 AM The EU may have the shiny clockwork car but it appears the UK may have the only key to wind it up. I cannot put it any more simply. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:05 AM "the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out." Britain chose to leave - it was their decision to "freeze themselves out" Having your cake and eating it or what !!!! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 15 Jul 19 - 09:55 AM The EU’s Galileo navigation system, set up as a competitor to American GPS and much-trumpeted by Remainers, has now been broken since Friday. Users were sent an advisory notice instructing them to avoid the service. Given that many key parts of the system involve the UK, the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM Should have been “...but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the fouls Widdecombe hag specifically, from...” |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM A superbly-written piece about politics in general, but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the foul Widdecombe hag, from I See You |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 14 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice When Sir Simon McDonald responded to the resignation letter he said I understand your wish to relieve the pressure on your family What do you think that meant, in a land of widespread gun ownership? It could mean his family being subjected to loud and vocal mobs harassing them. Or it could mean 'offed with extreme prejudice'. Not a phrase to use lightly, I feel. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM Seems that the sewer press are getting their bought and paid for lackeys in Parliament to lean on the Met to go soft on the leakers and publishers of the ambassador's accurate and confidential communications. Such as paid Telegraph columnist Boris Johnson, occasional Times columnist and spouse of a Mail hack Michael Gove, and Murdoch lackey Jeremy C Hunt. The weasels are closing ranks. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: David Carter (UK) Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM Doesn't seem that the ambassador said anything that wasn't in the Muller report anyway. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Iains Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM Judging by today's papers there are yet more delights to be had from the ambassador's leaked "postbag". For example: Support for the dodgy dossier on trump/russian collusion. Seems we went to war on bliar blairs dodgy dossier. What was the real intent of the trump/russian dossier? Destabilise his presidency and aid a deep state coup? Jus' like: the notorious 1953 coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq and nothing to do with the AIOC/BP nationalisation. Have to admit though, that one went better than the suez fiasco a few years later! When caught interfering in another country's affairs, simply getting fired is escaping lightly. Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice. To try to argue Trump interfered in sovereign affairs of the UK is risible. BOOT is on t'other foot! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 14 Jul 19 - 03:55 AM According to today's Sunday Times: The chairman of Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party was last night embroiled in the "Trump files" leak scandal as it emerged that he is in a relationship with the writer whose story brought down Britain’s ambassador to Washington. Richard Tice, a Brexit Party MEP, is dating Isabel Oakeshott, who last week published leaked diplomatic cables in which Sir Kim Darroch branded Donald Trump "clumsy and inept", forcing Darroch’s resignation when the president announced he would not work with him. Security sources said a suspect had been identified for the leaks amid "panic" in Whitehall that a "pro-Brexit Kim Philby" figure has been trying to undermine officials not deemed supportive enough of leaving the EU. Scotland Yard and the intelligence services believe a civil servant with access… (Because it is behind a paid firewall, the article is truncated at that point. The Guardian's comments on the Times article say: According to the Sunday Times, which cited unnamed government sources, a suspect had been identified and suggestions that it could be the result of a computer hack by a foreign state had been ruled out. "They think they know who did the leaking," an unnamed government source told the paper. "It's now a case of building a case that will stand up in court. It was someone with access to historical files. They went in and grabbed a range of material. It was quite crude." I am reminded that on Newsnight a few days ago, Richard Tice was against a police investigation. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 13 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on. No you didn't. Trump sounds off, Boris - who now admits he didn't do enough to defend Kim - is more concerned with pleasing Trump than supporting his staff, and Kim sees that his [probable] boss will not support him. That was my argument. It would be a naïve interpretation to think that just because the lack of support from Boris was the immediate cause of the hostile environment that Trump played no part in its construction. In any case, I am not interested in games of 'who wins the argument'. I make my points, which people can agree with or not. Its up to them. That is one reason why, as I say often, I try to make a point, explain it once (mainly to clarify what it seems I was unclear about first time) and then try to leave it. That allows you, or Iains, or anyone else to have the last word. I don't care either way, I am not keeping score. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM From: DMcG - PM Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows. Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on. What more can be expected? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM Diplomats are supposed to be subservient to world leaders otherwise it would be their fingers on the button Q - What's the difference between a patriot and a Qusiling A - ****** if I know, given the sample here Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: DMcG Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM I think, Jim, the response will be that Trump does not claim to be a diplomat. Of course, then they have all the diplomatic reports released by the WikiLeaks business, plus all the commentary from current diplomats that there was not exceptional whatsoever in the language and style of writing of Darroch. Which will be deemed irrelevant, I expect. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM "He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered." LIKE THIS ? Arsekissers of the world unite !! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture? From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM One of the saddest things about BrexShit is the way it has emboldened and given a voice to racists and xenophobes who think it's OK to do things like this. No doubt written by a Yaxley-Lennon Fan-Boy. |