BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:05 AM

I wasn't having a go, John!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

I know you weren't, Steve! Just wanted to be clear for everyone else's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:23 AM

May seems to be gaining support for renegotiation - no sign of any of them trusting the people with a democratic re-vote though
Brexit is set fair to cause FOOD PRICES TO RISE and you can lay money on it that them who can will exploit the situation to their advantage - WHEN HAVE THEY NOT ?

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!"
Good luck
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM

She may get support for renegotiation: actually persuading the EU to renegotiate is another matter. But should they succeed, the only likely alternative from their side is the 'border in the Irish sea." Which I suspect most Brexiteers could compromise to, and if that is the only alternative to a hard Brexit they could get enough support across the house. The DUP will have voted for one of the main things they are against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:56 AM

Does anyone read those posts?
..................
Yet again we get Theresa May refusing to make any change. Her idea of a new adjusted arrangemaent is where someone else changes and she stays in the same place. The Theresa May Syndrome needs to be clinically recognised.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." That quote is frequently said to be by Albert Einstein. It probably wasn't actually him - but it very much sums up the Theresa May Syndrome.

It's extraordinary that Jeremy Corbyn was pilloried over the assertion that he muttered the comment "Stupid woman" in face of Theresa May. It strikes me that he might as well have muttered "Theresa May", and it would have had precisely the same meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:22 AM

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!



Meanwhile the self proclaimed epitome of virtue posts the following:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:52 PM

You are a prize lout and a prize scumbag, Iains, as you have comprehensively demonstrated via your postings in several threads over the last few days (and over a much longer period, actually), as we've all observed. That isn't me saying that. You are self-declared in those regards. Your posts are capricious and immature, demonstrating that you actually need help - you have my sympathy. There really is something seriously the matter with you. There are far more decent people here than the few thorough nasties like you, bobad and, above all, Keith. You are yesterday's man and the more you open yourself to ridicule via your typically splenetic and vacuous posts the more we will ridicule you. I hope the moderators read this - they made a splendid decision a few months back to delete Teribus and akenaton from this forum. You are far more scurrilously negative than either of those. I don't actually care whether you are allowed to remain here or not. I hope that the thoroughly decent members here, including Raggytash, Dave, pfr, Jim, DMcG, Backwoodsman and Pete (sorry if I've missed anybody out) will do as I'm going to do, studiously blank you out completely. Do your worst, you big kid. You'll be a marble rattling in a biscuit tin as far as I'm concerned from now on.

Such flattery! Never mind shaw. As I have stated before I hold you in the deepest contempt as do others. After all being a called out as a"bastard" by a discerning member is hardly a ringing endorsement!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:35 AM

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:56 AM

A border in the Irish Sea would open a massive can of worms resulting in restriction of freedom of movement between different parts of the UK, which I think I might countenance if London could have a hard border with the rest of UK in exchange with staying in the customs union.

The only realistic solutions therefore would be to make NI a sovereign state, unite NI with the rest of Ireland, conclude that leaving EU is impossible, or commit economic and social suicide by just going over the cliff edge.

Sometimes I wonder if we agreed in a referendum to put rat poison in school meals then those who voted for it would refuse to back down from the decision if an expert inconveniently was to point out that this would result in millions of dead school children.

Being in government must entail working in the best interests of the population,(I would go further thatgovernments collectively should be working for the best interests of humanity) not in the interests of appeasing those who may withdraw their vote for a political party if they don't get their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:12 AM

Ignore him, Jim.


The best interest of the nation would be served by abandoning brexit. Brexit is a bit like the emperor's new clothes. They don't actually exist, though most of our politicians, as well as the feeble-minded leave camp in general, think they can see silk and shiny sequins. The emperor's scruffy old Asda George shirt and undies and old Woolworths jeans (a bit like the EU) at least kept him safe and warm and stopped him from catching a severe chill. Well they work for me anyway, though I must confess that I haven't been outside in the cold today...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM

...not in the buff anyway. Down girls...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:25 AM

Meanwhile back at the ranch:
Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough’s Labour* MP who was last year found guilty of perverting the course of justice, has been sentenced this morning to three months. She has become the first woman MP ever to be jailed…
The Tory hopeful is already electioneering for her seat. It seems a very mild slap on the wrist for an MP and solicitor to be found guilty of perverting the course of justice.(Huhne fessed up and got 9 months) so much for all being equal under the law!

and from the font of all things good. GUIDO

This is the order the amendments will be voted on, starting at 7pm:

    (a) Jeremy Corbyn – calls on the PM to rule out no deal while, predictably, keeping all options on the table
    (o) Ian Blackford – notes that the SNP don’t like Brexit, calls for no deal to be ruled out and Article 50 extended
    (g) Dominic Grieve – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on six dates in February and March allowing MPs to hijack Brexit
    (b) Yvette Cooper – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on 5th February to allow MPs to bring a Brexit-blocking Bill in
    (j) Rachel Reeves – calls on the PM to seek an extension to Article 50
    (i) Caroline Spelman – notes that Parliament rejects leaving without a deal
    (n) Graham Brady – calls for the Northern Ireland backstop to be replaced with alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 11:02 AM

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks

No passport controls between Ireland and the UK is by no means automatic, especially by air travel. I would say more than 50% of the time flying to Ireland my passport was checked on arrival.
Two EU members – Ireland and the United Kingdom – negotiated opt-outs from Schengen and continue to operate the Common Travel Area systematic border controls with other EU member states.
However, Irish immigration officers will check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and may ask for proof of nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK. (Still current at: 29 January 2019 gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

"...not in the buff anyway. Down girls..."
Not the only thing that's "down" in the cold weather

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:21 PM

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim

Howsabout some of yours laddie, you little charmer!

Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody
Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes
Jim Carroll - PM

Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM
CAN SOME HUMANE FORUM FAIRY WHO HAPPENS TO BE IN THE VICINITY PLEASE CLOSE DOWN THIS MINDLESSLY OBSESSIVE ONE-MAN CAMPAIGN. SOMEONE PUT HIM OUT OF ALL OUR MISERIES, PLEASE!!  
Still the same old, same old imbecility -are you really so insecure in your position?
For crying out loud, grow up and try to conduct a reasonable argument without the blustering bullshit - how old are you?
It's like trying to discuss with a truculent child

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer.
Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting.



Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Piss off you pair of racist pricks
Jim Carroll
At present, you are displaying all the belligerent thuggery and potential menage I associate with the racism you are displaying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:39 PM

Quasi-exciting stuff. The Brady amendment, which is meaningless drivel, is on a knife-edge, as is Yvette Cooper's, one that makes much more sense. Amazing, innit, how May has to hang on to every whim of the sectarian DUP and the back-stabbing far right of the ERG...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:08 PM

May's opponents in the Tory party, led by Lord Snooty, have been holding secret meetings to plan how she is going to be handled
Would you bleedin' Adam 'n Eve it !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:24 PM

The trouble with both those amendments is that both of them are about the UK parliament deciding something should happen which are completely out of its power to make happen, and which there is no reason can happen.

The Brady one is just about expecting the EU to do something it has repeatedly said it will not and cannot do; and the Cooper amendment isn't much better. Even if the Prime Minister can be compelled ask the EU to postpone the March headline when the UK is due to cease to be a member of the EU - there is no reason why the EU should agree to that, given the continued refusal of the UK government to change its "red lines".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:25 PM

They're holding one to decide what to do just before the Brady vote tonight. You wouldn't think there was a country at stake...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM

Their wealth, and their ability to continue to run their tax-avoidance scams, are their top priority. The rest of us can go hang, they don't give a FF about us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 02:02 PM

Stephen Barclay in summing has been asked three times (at least) what the phrase "alternative arrangements" means in the amendment the government is backing. After a series of dodges he finally had to say they would be whatever we could negotiate (ie no idea!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:42 PM

Faisal Islam(@faisalislam)
Go9d summaey from sky news:


Commons in short, so far.

We totally reject May’s Deal
We reject No Deal
We reject the power to stop No Deal ourselves.

Now voting to give the PM a mandate to change a backstop she negotiated that has already been rejected by negotiation partners.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:49 PM

So they've passed that silly amendment. More time wasted, more playing dice with the well-being of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

And the EU immediately responded in writing that the agreement will not be reopened.

It is all going so well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:33 PM

39 billion is a very enticing persuader. We are not talking about an
Ein Bahn Strasse.Now the PM has had her mandate renewed she can play a very strong hand.
Spiffing to see steptoe senior and his front bench looking as though they have been chewing on wasps!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:25 PM

So the EU will rightly tell May to bugger off, as THEIR remit is to act in the best interests of its members, ie Ireland in this case, not to pander to the naughty child who's thrown his toys (and himself) out of the pram. Mucking about with the backstop is tantamount to selling Ireland down the river and risking tearing up the Good Friday Agreement. But it won't be spun that way. Oh, no. It will be the EU being bullying, intransigent and inflexible. Just watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:29 PM

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case.

Bully boy's at it again I see. The mods have him pegged.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:

This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May’s deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory “moderates” taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a “serious proposal”. Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue.

Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:59 PM

And guess who said this in the debate:

“One has to keep in mind and respect the decision of the referendum, but that does not mean that you simply say that you’re going to drag the country out on terms that nobody seems to very much support towards a future which on the face of it looks pretty bad. And that is an abdication of our responsibility.”

Sometimes you come across something that makes you think "Why is he a Tory?" I might not agree much with the first bit, but the rest is measured and good. Why, 'twas Dominic Grieve!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:45 PM

The Communist Party of Britain wants to Brexit under World Trade Organization rules. Peter Sutherland , the first Director-General of the World Trade Organization who drafted the organization’s rules was also an EU commissioner !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:00 AM

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party also has a Brexit policy.

It's worth remembering that the OMRLP has exactly the same number of MPs as the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:19 AM

One of the things at risk of being under-reported is that the Spelman amendment to oppose a no-deal was carried by 8.   

It has long been reported that a majority of the House are against no deal, and at first sight this bears that out. The margin is probably an underestimate, because May promised there would be another opportunity to oppose no-deal in February. Also, the fact that the vote was entirely symbolic adds fogginess: some will vote in favour of the amendment because it has no consequences, and some will not vote for it and risk upsetting the voters at home precisely because it has no effect.

But with all that said, 8 is a very thin margin. I am not at all confident that if it came to it, the House would oppose a no-deal in the final moments. There is something in game theory called 'The Tragedy of the Commons' (in the sense of commonly owned land); it is ironic that the House of Commons looks like it will be a perfect example.

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing. That the house voted to adopt the policy of 'Wait for the Other Guy to Blink' (even though this is the antithesis of #taking back control') means I think Nigel's prediction is now the more likely. If May comes back in February with nothing from the EU, the house will simply say "Ah, that's what we expected. Let's keep waiting, the EU will crack in the end."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:34 AM

'They' are heading for a No-Deal-Brexit, and delaying, delaying, delaying in order to fool the feeble-minded amongst us, when the true horror of what that means hits them, that's 'It's all the fault of the EU and their intransigence - they forced us into it, we had no alternative'.

But hey-ho, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Jonathan Redwood, Philip May and his clients, and the tiny, immensely-wealthy cadre who give the Tories their orders will all be very happy as they continue their tax-avoidance schemes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM

I heard Rees-Mogg going on this morning about a no deal allowing us to exit without paying the debts currently owed to the EU. Just shows how he works. Got a lot in common with Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

They don't get rich by letting money go from their greedy, grasping hands, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 05:31 AM

A bit of light relief

Britain to repeat its Brexit offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it

Well, it would be but for some people... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 05:54 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:

"This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May's deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory "moderates" taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a "serious proposal". Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue."

Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.

You're right. You couldn't have put it better yourself. That doesn't mean that it is accurate.
May does NOT "act as if it must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first". She excluded the majority of the conservative party from any discussions, and would not be led by her "Brexit ministers". She presented the cabinet with a fait accompli at Chequers, in such a manner that made it very difficult for them to object (at that time). They were incommunicado, their mobiles handed in, and had no transport home if they left the cabinet at that stage.
The 'agreement' she offered them at that time had already been shown to (some) EU leaders, so the view of the Conservative MPs (be it Cabinet, MPs at Westminster, or the party as a whole) did not get a chance to show 'satisfaction' (or otherwise) with the agreement ahead of it being made public to the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 06:41 AM

You'll like this one, BWM

"Deluded" Boris and "unicorn" Raab get shut down on live TV

Looks like more and more people are understanding that the promises made are the stuff of fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:14 AM

It's unicorns all the way down...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:...............

Why on earth would anyone sensible wish to waste their energy wading through the partisan ramblings of a lefty media hack?

More fruitful to take heed of the ruminations of the Nation's leader!

Brought by courtesy of Mr Guido. The font of all topical and accurate reporting.



Backstop Alternatives

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM

On the more serious side, it does worry me that people are using the card game analogies. 'We hold all the cards'. 'We need to call the EU's bluff'. Even if these were true, to liken the fate of a nation to a game of chance seems to be somewhat frivolous to say the least. We have already seen the effect of Cameron banking on the referendum saying stay. Are memories really so short?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM

How Businesses Are Preparing for Brexit

Makes grim reading. Doesn't affect me but it will affect many others. My children and grandchildren included.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

Interesting article from Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford) in the New Statesman.

Why the UK cannot see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid

A point I have made all along is that if the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere want to leave, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is only to benefit them. The author of the article makes the point

If people have doubts about my argument that the media played a central role is misdirecting the public then (and many do), well Brexit should be a test case. And so far Brexit has gone exactly as these newspaper proprietors would have wished. Three coincidences is a row? The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid while the UK stockpiles food and medicine, and the Prime Minister tries to blackmail MPs into supporting her deal, is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

I suspect there will be no sensible arguments against Prof. Wren-Lewis's views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 10:37 AM

The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid ... is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

Not quite.

The U.S. is constantly polluted by a tsunami of Murdoch pigs**t as well.

I expect the Trumpist f**kwits think Brexit is at least as good an idea as "The Wall".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM

Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford)
On 27 September 2015 it was announced that he had been appointed to the British Labour Party's Economic Advisory Committee, convened by Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and reporting to Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn.

No guessing as to which side he is batting for then.
Project fear by a professor.

Now the true story by the Gruniard no less:
Why economic forecasting has always been a flawed science
While accepting the Nobel prize for economics, Friedrich Hayek made an astonishing admission. Not only were economists unsure about their predictions, he noted, but their tendency to present their findings with the certainty of the language of science was misleading and “may have deplorable effects”.

This revelation, made about 40 years ago, is a crucial one and yet it has been largely forgotten or ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/02/economic-forecasting-flawed-science-data

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM

Brexit has exposed an unfortunate reality – that the media’s commitment to reporting the facts, pure and simple, leaves a lot to be desired. And while this could be the product of bad journalism and poor research, there is also the possibility that that its ‘research and inform’ function has been usurped by a role as ‘narrative manufacturers’. And that’s a big worry.

Why did some South Asians vote for a campaign that was, at times, seen as bigoted and xenophobic? Perhaps voters didn’t feel particularly European; or perhaps the Leave camp’s pro-Commonwealth rhetoric pulled hard on the heartstrings; or perhaps the supposedly xenophobic and racist elements of the Leave campaign just didn’t offend many well-integrated, South Asian voters who strongly identify with the UK.

https://unherd.com/2019/01/brexits-unheard-voices/

This rather destroys the narrative repeatedly thrown at us by few lefties here. Racists, Bigots. I rather think not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:02 PM

“the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.”

The CPB has a lot of influence , Backwoodsman . The fact that Jeremy Corbyn supports and writes regularly in its daily paper, the Morning Star , goes some way to explaining his inability to lead a fight against Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:04 PM

Just on the BBC News App...

Brexit: Backstop is 'part and parcel' of the deal, says Michel Barnier - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47061650

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM

Mick, despite the Tories' attempt to make it so, Brexit is not a party-political issue. And if May had made it a cross-Party project right from the start, she wouldn't have been in the shit-pile she's in now. All the way through, she's had a policy of keeping the other parties at arm's length. It's a bit of a cheek to complain now that Corbyn and Labour aren't helping her out.

She made her bed, let her lie in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:12 PM

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project, but in my opinion, the 2016 referendum result would have been different if the Leave campaign hadn’t been supported by left Brexiteer groups such as the Communist Party, the SWP and Socialist Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM

Backwoodsman ,certain sections of Labour helped Boris J and Farage out. Dennis Skinner another left Brexiteer and Morning Star reader George Galloway another . I have asked friends in the Communist Party of Ireland -which bizarrely supported and campaigned for Brexit - what percentage of the vote did they think the left contributed to the result ;I have asked supporters of the pro-Brexit People Before Profit group here the same question.They always get uncomfortable and say something like “a very small percentage” , which makes them as irrelevant as you thinks they are . But these groups are not irrelevant .If there was proportional representation in the UK as there is in Ireland, I’m sure such left Brexiteer groups would have several MPs .Getting groups like that to at least abstain in future referendums or to leave the Brexit coalition is the key to overturning the disaster in my opinon.