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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 18 Oct 19 - 08:00 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 06:23 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 04:30 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 PM
robomatic 17 Oct 19 - 06:41 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 06:14 PM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 06:02 PM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM
Raggytash 17 Oct 19 - 04:42 PM
Mossback 17 Oct 19 - 04:35 PM
Mossback 17 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
Mossback 17 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 04:02 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM
robomatic 17 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM
DMcG 17 Oct 19 - 02:07 PM
weerover 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM
DMcG 17 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 08:46 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM
Donuel 17 Oct 19 - 07:35 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM
DMcG 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 19 - 05:14 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Oct 19 - 03:42 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM
DMcG 16 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM
Rain Dog 16 Oct 19 - 08:20 AM
Stanron 16 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM
weerover 16 Oct 19 - 07:40 AM
Iains 16 Oct 19 - 07:27 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:00 AM

One MEP telling it like it is:
JEREMY CORBYN has been labelled as the ‘problem’ why Britain hasn’t moved forward as Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts said he hasn’t been clear on his Brexit stance in three years.

Judges REJECT Remainers' demand for urgent legal challenge against Boris Johnson.The human rights group brought the case before the court in an attempt to ensure the Government complied with the Benn Act, the law that forces Boris Johnson to request an extension if a deal has not been passed by October 19 - tomorrow

Happy, Happy days. Tic toc!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Steve - even if the court did find the proposed deal would against the law, I suspect the response would be to change the law rather than the deal. Since the deal has not been formally approved, providing the law was changed first there would be no conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

Even an 'Untouchable' backs the Treaty:
The Chairman of the official Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) campaign, Stuart Rose, has come out as the latest supporter of Boris’s new Brexit deal.( A rose among the thorns…)

Speaking to the Today Programme, Rose – who led the designated campaign to Remain in the EU during the referendum – said

    “I think we’ve just got to move on, we’ve got to reflect on the pros and cons, we’ve put aside our differences, we’ve got to lean in and we’ve got to think of the bigger picture and purpose. So I support it…”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:23 AM

Where we are now negates ben's treacherous bill.(HO HO HO)


A majority of people want the UK to respect the Brexit referendum result, according to a new poll.

The Comres survey revealed today that 54 per cent of people wanted to respect the Brexit referendum result and leave the European Union, with 32 per cent preferring to remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM

Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk have both come out strongly in their own sweet ways to assert that the decisions to be made by the UK are ours alone and must not be influenced from outside. I guess that Jean Claude had an off-day yesterday. He's well known for leading with his gob...

Interesting court case in Scotland today. The deal could be illegal. I doubt it somehow but we'll see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM

An excellent tactic I've seen suggested in HuffPost this morning should the Johnson sellout be rejected by the Commons. Make him write his humiliating letter under the Benn act but continue to deny him his general election. Let the Tories/DUP/ERG stay bogged down for a few more months, giving them time to tear themselves to pieces. Then strike...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:30 AM

Better to blank Shaw, the man that peddles opinion as fact, because to quote his own words
"that is what I do"
You should attempt to construct some sensible counter arguments instead of having yet another hissy fit. Unlike you I post facts, clearly state if offering opinion, and post copious links.
I do not insult anyone on this forum, I merely tell it how it is.

Act like child, expect to be treated like a child - kiddo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM

Anyway, it's a bad deal. Basically, Theresa May's badly tweaked. It should not be voted in just because of the fear of the beyond. There's a better chance now than ever before for no brexit if those politicians who genuinely have the interests of the country to heart vote the right way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 PM

Try to follow. We are in difficult times this end.

For Brit consideration only: I've watched "Brexitcast" two or three times recently but tonight's programme was a delight. I like Laura and Katya a lot, and they, and Adam Fleming, knock sparks off each other. All these guys are close to "sources" and they give us useful insights with an informal light touch and relaxed neutrality. More, Beeb!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:41 PM

¿WTF?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:31 PM

Right I'll have another go even though I swore to myself I never would. We either completely, utterly and totally blank Iains or we'll have him forever. Now Joe Offer thinks that this idiot represents some kind of legitimate opposition to left-wing views. He thinks that we should oppose him via reason and debate. He thinks that Americans are far more polite about these things and he sez that yanks don't understand the way we Brits do these things. Well Joe doesn't read enough of his posts. I know this because he's admitted all these things to me (as an honourable man I can't reproduce his messages, but that's the gist). Joe Offer, and quite likely the other moderators, appears to rather enjoy us Brits engaging in these squabbles. Well, chaps, why don't we determine right now to deprive them of their pleasure? How? By not responding to any post of Iains', by not appearing to address any point he's made, by refusing to open his links, not even responding to his cod-reasonable posts (don't you worry - he will revert to type in a heartbeat). There is something seriously wrong with him, but we are not therapists and we should not feed his hatred. PLEASE ignore his poison. We can do it. If he never, ever, EVER gets even a hint of a response from anybody here, he will go away. Isn't that what we want?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:14 PM

Question Time as I type is just terrible. Two decent women on the panel, three bloody idiots and a mass rabble. It's a stretch, but I'm hanging on to my belief in democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:02 PM

The remainiacsare now going to stamp their feet and squeam and squeam and squeam. Go on! Make my Day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM

Hilarious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:42 PM

IGNORE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:35 PM

Off


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

Bugger


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

Iains


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:02 PM

The intervention by Juncker today was most unwelcome. He's going to have us thinking that unelected bureaucrats such as he can blackmail our sovereign parliament. I'm surprised and disappointed with him. He spoke out of order. He is clearly seeking his legacy. Poor show.

WELCOME TO REALITY KIDDO!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

It seems that the EU27 have contradicted Juncker and fully left open the option of an extension. As for the DUP, I suspect that their real beef with the customs border in the Irish Sea is the psychological appearance on the tabloid maps to that effect is that is looks just a tad more like a united Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM

No more threads. The mods don't want any more brexit jobs and I agree. Just click on that little 'd' next to the little blue number. It doesn't matter if the thread is a million messages long if you do that: you get the latest posts straight away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM

NPR 'splained the deal this morning as I was wakee waking.l..
Much of the same as under Theresa except the Irish backstop gone, all Ireland is with EU and there is a customs wall between Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Was this not an obvious choice some time (years) ago? Did Boris make some vital change our contribute some unkempt hair magic that I'm missing? Or was Boris itself the magic addition? That of desperation?

Not to go all Hannah Arendt on y'all, but in this the age of Johnson and Tr-mp are we now to experience the "banality of Democracy"?

Also, it's time to start a new shorter thread....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM

The choice is between this deal and not having this deal. "Not having this deal" does not mean no deal. It could mean no brexit. A vote to reject the deal triggers a request for an extension, which will be granted, especially if a tie to a second referendum can be made. No EU nation or body wants us to leave, after all. The intervention by Juncker today was most unwelcome. He's going to have us thinking that unelected bureaucrats such as he can blackmail our sovereign parliament. I'm surprised and disappointed with him. He spoke out of order. He is clearly seeking his legacy. Poor show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM

As I just tweeted, yet again - We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the United Nations - no G7 either; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest" http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/walkaboutsverse-84-of-230.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:07 PM

I agree that this makes the chances of Scotland voting to leave quite high. But I would only expect them t do that with a strong assurance that they could join the EU. Because there are advantages of doing that within the transition period, it is likely they will try to do that very soon - probably next year.

Let's all look forward to debates about the EU(Scotland) and England border. The proposed solution for NI would not work for Scotland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: weerover
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

The most repeated argument against a "Yes" vote in the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence was that if Scotland went independent it would lose EU membership, and that appeared to persuade many in s close vote. Scots then voted overwhelmingly "Remain" and Brexit would almost certainly result in a majority in Scotland now to favour independence. That would in due course lead to nuclear weapons being removed from Scottish soil, which would be the one positive outcome from this unholy mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM

Rees-Mogg said MPs would then vote either on a motion to back the deal, or on one to approve no deal. He explained:

The debate that follows will be a motion to either approve a deal or to approve a no-deal exit.

That debate on one or other of those motions would run for up to 90 minutes under the existing rules of this House.

=====
So it with EITHER be a motion to accept the deal OR a motion for no deal.

It will not be a motion to choose between them. This is unsurprising because there is no mechanism in Parliamentary votes to choose between alternatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:46 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg has announced that on Saturday’s sitting, MPs will be presented with a single motion, presenting a choice between Boris’s new negotiated deal and no deal. This will be entirely compliant with the provisions of the Benn Act, as by voting against the deal MPs would have given consent to leaving on the 31st without a deal.
Genius in its simplicity…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM

Donuel your post demonstrates you know not what you are talking about.
The deal is with the EU( a single body)
Any extension can be thwarted by a single country's veto.
I suggest you learn the distinction before posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:35 AM

All that needs to be done is for every EU country to vote yes as well as your Parliment and it is a done deal. Its a chance worth taking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM

I suspect Brexit and Tory will do an under the table deal.
Labour is wandering around in the wilderness with numerous splinters up its arse from fence sitting and the Libdems have clearly demonstrated they give not a fig for democracy by talk of repealing article 50
All in all it should be an interesting election with many more honest politicians on the benches and the treacherous dwarf sent packing.

I detect a little ray of sunshine - let us hope it does not turn into a winter of discontent for the democracy loving brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 AM

I see Farage says the new deal "is not Brexit."

That suggests when the next election comes there is a fair change the Brexiteer vote is split, despite Johnson's efforts to get as many as possible of them to back the Conservatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM

There are rumours a deal is done! We shall see!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:14 AM

"(For the record, I believe neither in God nor in Arlene)."
For the record - neither do I - they can all go to their own chosen hell in a handcart as far as I'm concerned
It's always comforting to see rats at each other's throats rather than yours though
Be careful out there and don't go prodding any trolls while I'm away
That's my job
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

You ould cynic, Jim! ;-)

Yes, God bless Arlene. For now.

(For the record, I believe neither in God nor in Arlene).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:42 AM

It appears the DUP have scuppers Johnson's plans for leaving - bless their little Orange Flag (haven't checked the details yet)
Maybe he didn't offer a big enough bung out of taxpayers money this time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

When in a hole, stop digging!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

At the risk of getting told off, of course anyone can add a few rows to a spreadsheet. The complexity comes from the administrative systems you need to obtain the numbers you enter, and be able to prove them to be accurate when the tax inspector arrives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM

Adding a few more lines to a spreadsheet is hardly a stepchange in complexity.Even the most mediocre book keeper could accomplish such a task. Each time there is a budget a company has to review it's payroll deductions and revenue liabilities and review the impact on the bottom line. That applies to a one man band or a cast of thousands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM

Just to clarify that a bit: I realise the biggest companies that already trade outside the EU probably have such systems already and it is a relatively small increase in complexity. It is the middle size companies that trade widely but only within the EU that have the step-change in administrative complexity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM

What happens about VAT for Northern Ireland will be a bit of a nightmare. As pointed out by many, including Nigel, the UK wants to be free to use a different system. For the sake of a name, let's call it Purchase Tax (PT), though it may differ significantly from the earlier incarnation of that.

So when I sell into the UK, I need to use PT, and when I sell into the EU, I need to use VAT.   And I also have to keep sufficient checks to ensure I do not ever accidentally apply the wrong tax to a product, o I need traceability right through from product, through warehousing and dispatch. Some components in the product may have come from an EU source, and the tax is reclaimable, and some from the UK, where whether there is any ability to reclaim is unknown.

That sounds a lot of bureaucracy added into each and every business, and VAT was always claimed to be heaviliy bureaucratic on its own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM

Ex chess player! I can see why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM

It's a bit difficult to fathom where Brexit can go from here
The DUP want no part of anything thet will stop their claim to being British, Varadkar cannot possibly compromise on a border (especially with an election coming up) and America has announced that there will be no pay deal with Britain if the Good Friday Agreement is in any way effected
As an ex- chess player, I'm used to stalemates that onlt involve two sides
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM

Angela Merkel is quite rightly pointing out that a large economy will be sitting on the EU's doorstep and will be more of a competitor than a partner. She is particularly concerned about the banking sector, which the UK dominates. No-one has ever suggested that the EU won't be hurt by brexit. But she was putting the EU side. She was not focusing on the UK side, which is that we will be hurt by brexit a damn sight more than the EU will. Only hubris-ridden little Englanders who have decided to ignore every economic forecast by every economist are denying that. And even they are a dying breed, I've noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM

Am I inmagining things or are remainiac MPs trying to stop the house sitting on Saturday. These are the same zealots that dragged the courts into parliamentary busines in order to reopen parliament so they could spaff away the additional time and accomplish nothing.
It is very clear that our democracy is dead until we have a general election and thin out the knaves.
Brought by courtesy of guido of course:


https://order-order.com/2019/10/16/remainers-may-stop-parliament-sitting-fears-will-pass-deal/#disqus_thread

Twould appear the remainiac Mps postions on the opening and closing of parliament would rival the Kama Sutra


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM

A massive anti-Brexit March is to be held in London on Saturday - predicted to be the largest the Capital has ever seen
It will be interesting to see if tat's the case and how it is greeted
Am I right in thinking there have been no significant demonstrations in favour of leaving
Maybe Brexiteers don't cope too well in the open air !!

Are you really never going to put your money where your mouth is Stanron ?
You have yet to respond head on to sa single point head on
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:20 AM

weerover posted "Jim, what did you mean by "the opening of Oughterard"? I have been there several times and have played on its golf course and it seemed to be open!"

Galway Advertiser


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM

Am I imagining this or have I just heard that Angela Merkel expressed fears about the UK becoming a 'ruthless competitor' to the EU. Not a 'little England' note, a 'ruthless competitor'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: weerover
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:40 AM

Jim, what did you mean by "the opening of Oughterard"? I have been there several times and have played on its golf course and it seemed to be open!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:27 AM

As Victor would say: "I don't believe it!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/636703/Jeremy-Corbyn-Diane-Abbott-affair-1970s-Labour-east-Germany-motorcycle-musical

Perhaps they will resurrect Brian Rix and make it a Whitehall farce.

Mind you they will have to be quite clever to surpass the real life comedy of compo and his clutch of fools.


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