BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 19 - 11:13 AM

Meanwhile back to Brexit. It would seem that European residents in the UK are being denied the right to vote in the EU elections because of administration errors.

I wonder what our resident Brexiteers have to say about this complete lack of democracy.

Could someone please link to the Guardian article entitled 'EU Citizens in UK complain of being denied right to vote'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 11:27 AM

Here you go, Raggy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 May 19 - 11:54 AM

'complete lack of democracy.'

At least they are even handed about it.

Expats fear postal votes will not count

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 12:29 PM

Just in case any of the Bumpkins have a couple of brain-cells that actually work, here’s something for them to get their daft heads around...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 19 - 12:47 PM

Thats not balance. EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU are the same kind of people, people who are open to immersing themselves in other cultures, people who have used freedom of movement to improve their lives. People who think for themselves. And thus more likely to vote for progressive parties rather than the reactionary forces of the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:44 PM

Well one of the most broad-minded and balanced people I ever met was a old vicar and botanist from Oldham who hardly ever left Lancashire (as was), though I did climb Penyghent with him once when he was 77 to find the purple saxifrage. So you never can tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:46 PM

Those are contract workers, people who form an isolated expatriate community. I have worked with those too and they are often extremely reactionary, especially towards the culture of the country in which they work. I am talking about people who decide to move to, live in, and become part of, a different culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:47 PM

It was rumoured the 22 committee would shift the PM out of downing Street by Friday. The latest update is that it will probably require 22 SAS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:52 PM

Be careful what you wish for...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 19 - 02:05 PM

Those are contract workers, people who form an isolated expatriate community.
Some are, some are not.

they are often extremely reactionary, especially towards the culture of the country in which they work.

Try being reactionary in the Middle East, Parts of Africa and SE Asia and you can share a very dodgy jail cell.

You obviously only traveled in touristy places in more "enlightened" parts of the world.

Take it from me, if you are in Dodge City you keep your mouth shut, and your opinions to yourself. Or suffer the consequences!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:28 PM

Ah well Steve, thats a Vicar, who will be anticipating an even larger move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:58 PM

He was a very earthy sort of chap, David. He actually shared my surname, though we weren't related, so there's a clue. He was a big mate of Roy Lancaster, another great bloke who started out working in the park next to my school in Bolton. On one occasion by the canal in Radcliffe. when I was but a callow and youthful botanist, he espied me looking up a plant in an identification guide. "What are you doing?" he demanded. "Er, just looking this up...." "Well chuck bloody book away. You'll never learn owt from a book!"

He was right!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 19 - 05:21 PM

That was the vicar who said that, not Roy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 19 - 06:59 PM

So, several hours have passed and not one of our resident Brexiteers have commented on the disgrace that Europeans resident in the UK are being denied the opportunity to vote in a most important event.

I can't help but think this may be because those people MAY vote remain.

Those Brexiteers who rattle on about Democracy, who castigate some of us who would prefer a second referendum, those of us who   acknowledge that almost 2 millions people (who will be most affected by any decision) did not, and will not, have a say in the matter because they were not old enough 3 years ago to have a vote.

Democracy................ my a***!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 19 - 02:07 AM

Raggy, I seem to recall that comments were made but, as is so often the case, one or more of the posters resorted to abuse and the post(s) were removed by the Mods.

Apologies if I’m mistaken - I’ve read a lot of ‘stuff’ about this issue over the past 24 hours so I might be confusing this forum with other sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 19 - 02:17 AM

There was a comment, which I paraphrase as a shrug of the shoulders and 'mistakes happen'. Certainly a long way short of an insistence on everyone's right to democratic representation.

Not exactly a defence I would like to rely on if this potential case comes to anything: UK government may face court action after EU citizens denied vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 02:50 AM

Labour party looks like front runner in Holland
Wilder's fascists lost three of its four seats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:02 AM

Green party making good headway in Germany. Looks like some people have learned the lessons of the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Fingers Crossed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 19 - 04:43 AM

Even the Guardian bows to reality:

'Swept up on a tide': disaffected voters flock to Brexit party across north-west


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/24/disaffected-voters-boost-brexit-party-across-north-west

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 19 - 05:27 AM

PM given the boot. Good!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 19 - 07:10 AM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson has, very fortunately, just been offered a job in Rotterdam. We are very tempted....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 19 - 07:29 AM

Wonder who the DUP will choose to be the next Tory leader and PM? Methinks I foresee another huge bung going their way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 08:14 AM

As bad as May is, it's odds on that the next one will be worse
The gloating over her going by the Pen pusher (pun intended) and no doubt from those who forced her resignation is an indication of how low her party has sunk at a time when Britain needs leadership
A public dog-fight rather than a government
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:56 AM

EU says the agreement is still closed and the parliamentary arithmetic is unaltered.


What is the magic phrase again? Ah, yes, nothing has changed.

Of course, a new leader may be more willing to bring no-deal to the house. But whatever they may say, if they have even a slight doubt that to get the promised land there is a lot of pain to go through, few will want to get the blame for the pain...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 19 - 12:55 PM

It all ends in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 May 19 - 04:38 PM

My feet and legs are almost recovered from another polling day. I am disgusted that May did not confirm the European election a month or two earlier, I have yet to see figures for the number of EU voters domiciled in the UK did not have their voting rights paperwork confirmed by their local authorities - could run to a five or 6 figure number.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:21 AM

I read an article yesterday which I cannot now find, which is annoying. It was, if I remember correctly, from the electoral commission explaining, but in no way excusing, why so many EU nationals here and abroad were excluded. In short, it was because administratively an EU election is very different to a local or general election, so they can't just replicate what they do for other elections. But because May refused to admit the elections were happening no funds were released to do the work, which led to a lot of stuff being done under extreme pressure with no time for proper consideration.

The author was absolutely straight that it was not good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:54 AM

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums


Are government reports subject to censorship on mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:16 AM

As far as I remember the "explainations" you linked to said 'administrative error'. The article goes a level beyond that saying how did the administrative errors come about. Root cause analysis and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 07:52 AM

So far The Green Party seems to have done the best in yesterday's both local and European elections
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 10:23 AM

So far The Green Party seems to have done the best in yesterday's both local and European elections
Jim Carroll

How can you possibly know how well the Greens have done (or seem to have done) in the European elections? There is supposed to be a moratorium on anyone giving exit polls, or similar, until all Europe have had the chance to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 10:33 AM

"How can you possibly know how well the Greens have done (or seem to have done) in the European elections? "
Sorry - should have said "in Ireland" - they are assessing the results now
We had two/three (depending where you live) elections happening here yesterday - local council, E.U., and a referendum on divorce
The figures were an assessment of all of them
If letting the cat out of the bag in advance - fairl play as far as I'm concerned
The ruthlessness and dishonesty that has been part of the Eu farce outweighs any lapses in protocol that has given fascism a toe-hold in Europe
It is to the shame of people like you that you've stood by silently and allowed it to happen - we thought we'd seen the back of those bastards after so many gave their lives 70 odd years ago
What are you people thinking Nigel !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 01:55 PM

What are you people thinking Nigel !!!
I'm thinking that even the population of Northern Ireland should be bound by the same restrictions as the rest of Europe. (not just UK)
You may believe that Ireland is a 'special case'. 'Heads up', it isn't!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:00 PM

"You may believe that Ireland is a 'special case'. 'Heads up', it isn't!"
Nothing to do with Northern Ireland Nige - you've opened the door to fascism by supporting mob-rule
I hope you'll forgive yourself - I doubt if anybody else will if the European fascists form the coalition they are aiming to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:02 PM

And I've just taken a copy of the last four postings in case someone thinks it shows the Remain campaign in a bad light, and gets it deleted.
I'm getting pissed off with the ability of remainers to get this discussion altered to look as if they have the only valid arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:53 PM

"I'm getting pissed off with the ability of remainers to get this discussion altered to look as if they have the only valid arguments."
Are you really suggesting te Mods are remainers Nige
You disappoint me - you're as bad as the rest of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:20 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:00 PM
"You may believe that Ireland is a 'special case'. 'Heads up', it isn't!"
Nothing to do with Northern Ireland Nige - you've opened the door to fascism by supporting mob-rule
I hope you'll forgive yourself - I doubt if anybody else will if the European fascists form the coalition they are aiming to
Jim Carroll
My comment was related to your posting what you believe to be news about the EU polling results:
"How can you possibly know how well the Greens have done (or seem to have done) in the European elections? "
Sorry - should have said "in Ireland" - they are assessing the results now
Ireland are under the same restrictions as the rest of the EU about publishing results/polls until 10pm Sunday.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:53 PM

"I'm getting pissed off with the ability of remainers to get this discussion altered to look as if they have the only valid arguments."
Are you really suggesting te Mods are remainers Nige
No, Jimmy I'm suggesting that the mods are following guidance from remainers who are pushing their own agenda, and are contacting moderators to get this discussion altered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:50 PM

And the steel industry has gone to the wall because Australia has devastated its own environment (thereby totally avoiding the financial crisis that the rest of us suffered) in order to supply unlimited iron ore to China. China then uses cheap labour to flood the world with cheap steel. And we can't do anything because China makes most of our stuff. That's the way the world is going.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:00 PM

Don't blame it on Australia.
Until last year a large amount of 'scrap metal' was going from UK to China, giving them the opportunity to recycle it and re-sell it to UK & America. Some details : Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:12 PM

No blame, just narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:40 PM

No mod is following any guidance from anyone and I'm getting a bit sick of these insupportable attacks on them. I don't know how many mods operate on this board, but I only know three of them. Two of them dislike me intensely and I've had many a spat. The other is neutral and doesn't engage with me at all easily, though (I think) we enjoy at least a bit of mutual respect. Whatever else, they are all very strong-minded individuals. I have little idea as to which one monitors this thread but if they're taking "guidance" well all I can say is that it isn't coming from me. I'd like to suggest that, whilst enquiry of mods may well be legitimate, public criticism of them is rarely if ever justifiable. It's a good job I'm not one, because if I was I would not tolerate some of the nonsensical and illiberal criticism we see coming from Iains, bobad and Nigel Parsons.

And this will be deleted. But I've got it off my chest anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:50 PM

As far as anyone outside the Mods group knows, the only person who ‘gives guidance’ to the Mods is Max Spiegel who, as the owner of this site, is bloody well entitled to do so without criticism from our resident Right-Wing extremists, abusers, and bully-boys.

There have been a number of my posts deleted but, being an adult, I accept it without the pissing and moaning we’re seeing from the above-mentioned individuals.

Perhaps if those people were to GTFU, and behave like decent, civilised human beings, this forum would be a far nicer place.

And, if this post disappears, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:07 PM

The only problem I have with deleted posts is that other posts responding to them do not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:57 PM

Well, SPB, you can delete vexatious posts but that leaves a legacy of hanging posts that require a rather large input of time in order to deal with them. I wouldn't complain. The priority is to get the poison out, and I think we can all be man/woman/person enough to deal with the residue. Now, interesting sideline though this is, I think we should try to talk about brexit from now on, insane though that suggestion might be...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 19 - 01:59 AM

It would make more sense to delay further discussion of brexit until the outcome of the recent EU voting is known. Why conjecture when in a few hours absolute facts can be used.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:51 AM

"I think we should try to talk about brexit from now on, insane though that suggestion might be..."

And, of course, fastidiously ignore the RWE bully-boys, trouble-makers, and nit-pickers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 03:45 AM

There will be no clarity from the results of the EU elections - everyone will spin the results as the always do. Few doubt the Brexit Party will get a high percentage but that is hardly significant in itself, since it potentially had at 17.4 million to draw on (plus some percentage of people who didn't vote). There is a good case that getting less than 52% of the vote shows no deal to be not what people voted for, for example.

The results will be spun by all sides. Have no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 19 - 04:55 AM

Better get the groundwork in early then. Historically the UK has a low turnout for EU elections,like much of Eastern Europe.


http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:01 AM

Turnout does not affect percentages of course.