BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 07:34 AM

Corbyn formally states talks have gone as far as they can.

This is, I think, no surprise to anyone: the only doubt was over who said it first.

According to Peston, it is likely that the next step will be to give a statement on Monday that indicative votes will be held on Wednesday with the aim of reflecting these in in the WAB, taking into account not just whether they pass or not, but the strength of support. And, of course, no firm statement that even ones that pass will find their way into the WAB.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 06:52 AM

Bombs away Skipper!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 06:50 AM

Farage is an opportunist fascist who is using the same hate policy that forced Enoch Powell out of the Tory Party
It is depressing that what made Powell an embarrassment is now being used as a step up the fame and fortune ladder - a sign of national deterioration
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 06:04 AM

What a strange comment, given the circumstances

Here is a dose of reality from darkest Wales.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/nigel-farages-brexit-party-just-16284407

Who cares about yesterday's parties. They are not even also rans!

Is straw clutching to become an Olympic Sport?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 05:25 AM

" But as a poll finds only 13% of Labour voters understand Labour's brexit policy "
The country as a whole is totally bemused abot the Tory's Brexit policy and the Party itself are totally unable to agree on how it wishes to leave - or if it does
What a strange comment, given the circumstances
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 19 - 05:23 AM

As I have a postal vote, I voted two weeks ago. Not disclosing who I voted for, other than to say that it wasn’t the group whose top candidate was the obnoxious, opportunist Annunziata Rees-Mogg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 05:05 AM

As an old bomber pilot said:
You know you are getting close to the target when the flak gets heavier!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 04:48 AM

”By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?”

This was answered last night on"Question Time" and the audience response was prolonged laughter.

To claim Brexit is only a Tory problem is extremely bizarre. But as a poll finds only 13% of Labour voters understand Labour's brexit policy perhaps such outlandish claims attempting to disown it can be understood.
The corresponding figure for brexiteers was 60%.

These figures do not bode well for Labour in the upcoming EU elections which are all about brexit.
Can we assume from the position taken by some posters they will refuse to participate, because it is not their problem, or will they take the inevitable hammering anyway?
The silent majority, believing in democracy, will be speaking with their votes The outcome of the vote will be much more unambiguous than a second referendum. Perhaps we will need to erect tents during polling. To create safe spaces dispensing spoons full of sugar to staunch remainiacs, in order that the unpalatable reality(of losing-again) will go down

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 04:26 AM

Gloating over the numbers supporting this Lemming Leap (somewhat reminiscent of that with the Tommy Robinson petition) in no way alters the fact that Brexit has torn British society to shreds and left the UK virtually leaderless as things stand - that's the reality
Hardly anything to celebrate - I wouldn't have thought it would be something those who claim to love their country would be too pleased about - but it takes all sorts, I suppose !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 04:21 AM

According to today's Telegraph:

The latest polling average puts Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party ahead of the two major parties, on 30 per cent compared to Labour’s 21 per cent and the Tories’ 12 per cent.


That is around what UKIP were polling before the previous EU elections (one of the polls last time put UKIP on 38%.)

Despite all the noise and bluster, it is looking like Brexit is going to be a fairly straightforward replacement of UKIP last time. After all, even Farage has said the policies are the same.

How that will translate into seats, I will not predict, because it will depend very much on turnout, which I suspect will be higher than normal. How those percentages and the distribution of turnout interact in the end I would not like to guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 03:55 AM

Meanwhile, back to the harsh realities of life!
YouGov / European Election

Brexit Party 35
LIB 16
LAB 15
Green 10
CONs 9
CUKs 5
SNP 3
UKIP 3
Other 3

How high is Brexit Momma? 35% and rising......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 19 - 03:32 AM

Parroting out received wisdom is a wonderfully lazy and all too easy thing to do. It's amazing how often critics of the EU such as Stanron betray the fact that they haven't done their homework as to how the EU works, and that's precisely what the Farages of this world depend on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:26 AM

What President do you mean Stanron? The President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission are both elected by the European Council which comprises the Heads of State of the Member States. They are elected for fixed terms. Both are accountable to the European Parliament. The Presidency of the Council of the European Union is held by one of the member states, in rotation. In contrast, I have never been able to vote for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the Head of the Civil Service, or the Queen. And the last one of those is in office for life. The EU is far more democratic than the UK.

I think that you are confused as to what a President is. It is someone who presides at meetings. When you confuse a presidency with an executive authority, you get a system which really doesn't work very well, as we see in various countries around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:22 AM

Who will vote for her successor any day now?

It may be argued the Conservative membership will, but that is quite a stretch, because they can only choose one of the two that others have selected. If you are a One Nation Tory, forget it - you will almost certainly be offered the choice of two Brexiteers. It is rather like what I believe conjurers refer to as a forced card.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 08:03 PM

And who voted for Theresa May in 2016? Who will vote for her successor any day now? You're being daft, aren't you, Stanron?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:49 PM

How many UK Prime Ministers have you voted for? When was the last time you voted a Cabinet member into his position in the Cabinet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:48 PM

Thank you for confirming that you have never voted for an EU President and you have never voted a Commission member to his or her position on the Commission. Thank you for confirming that the two top layers of power in the EU are beyond democratic control.

Do you like my comparison to the two top layers of power in the EU to the two top layers of power in the Catholic Church?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:38 PM

Scarily offbeam, actually. Off you go and do your homework for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:38 PM

Steve nothing in your post contradicts my post of Date: 16 May 19 - 06:01 PM. How many EU presidents have you voted for? When was the last time you voted a Commission member into his position on the Commission?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:33 PM

It's kind of like the two top layers of the Catholic church. The person who takes mass in their local church cannot vote for their pope. Neither can they vote for their Cardinals who do vote for their next Pope. A scarily exact analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:28 PM

Absolute bollocks, and you know it. The Commission can instigate debate and suggest policy but is completely powerless with regard to deciding and executing policy. That is one hundred percent down to the twenty-eight member states and, if needs be, the elected European Parliament. I'll be kind to you and assume that you've been gullible enough to soak up and accept lies rather than that you yourself are lying. You are accepting of received wisdom from your anti-EU ilk, when what you should actually be doing is apprising yourself of the actual mechanisms of the EU. You haven't a clue as to the latter, and your pale Teribus-imitation is rather pathetic, actually. Now toddle off and educate yourself as to how the EU, for all its flaws, actually works, and get honest. Go on, Teribus will be reading this, so show him how it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:01 PM

The two top layers of power in the EU are beyond the choice of the electorate. As an EU voter I cannot vote the President in or out. As an EU voter I cannot vote members of the Commission, who decide who becomes President, in or out of their Commission positions. The two top layers of power in the EU are not democratically controlled. The EU is not Democratic. The sooner we are out, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:39 PM

The EU 28, as I've explained many times before on this forum, generally reach agreement on policy and regulation by common consent, without the need to take matters to a vote in Parliament, though that option is there. The power of veto is there at various agreed levels, typically according to the size of the state that might invoke it, but more commonly the veto will be considered not by an individual state but by a bloc of states. The UK is regarded as one of the more argumentative states of the EU, but even so we have accepted without demur 95% of all proposals (thousands of them) and have only disagreed with any vehemence on half of the rest. In contrast, the UN has several massive states with individual powers of veto that are used for purely ideological reasons. For example, the US exercises its veto utterly routinely in order to prevent any criticism whatsoever of Israel, regardless of the level of atrocity carried out by that country's regime. Consensus is not possible under those circumstances. Your support of the UN over the EU is completely arse about face.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:13 PM

Steve - I agree that the UN must improve but would add that the EU also has issues with the issues you mention, including vetos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:07 PM

No Stanron, not once has anyone said how we, the public, will benefit.

We've had platitudes about regaining our sovereignty, which we never lost, and controlling our borders, which will still, post Brexit, allow people from outside the EU to enter. We could change that tomorrow should it be deemed beneficial.

So come on, tell me how the people will benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:43 PM

Raggytash wrote: Stanron, Once again someone from your side of the discussion will not provide answers to a straightforward question.

I have answered your question twice before. Both times you dismissed my answer. Other people may well have answered too. Put the work in to search for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:39 PM

Stanron, Once again someone from your side of the discussion will not provide answers to a straightforward question.

I can only presume that this is so because non of you actually know any answers to the question.

How on earth can you tell us all we should leave the EU unless you can tell the rest of us how we will benefit from that decision.

So come on,provide some answers.


(PS Once again I won't hold my breath.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:36 PM

Brexit is the project of the Tory Party, aided and abetted by the Nicotine-Stained Haddock and his ‘Party’ - Labour’s Brexit Policy is irrelevant.

Come Come now! You are being rather economical with the truth.
Labour promised 3 times to have a referendum and reneged three times
on 20 April 2004 Blair told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".

He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."

the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.
Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."

Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 01:00(Irish Times)
BRITAIN:Gordon Brown appears determined to defy popular demands for a British referendum on the EU reform treaty, despite mounting internal Labour Party pressure ahead of this week's European summit in Lisbon. It was of course a commitment on the Labour election manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 12:27 PM

”By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?”

Red Herring Alert.

Brexit is the project of the Tory Party, aided and abetted by the Nicotine-Stained Haddock and his ‘Party’ - Labour’s Brexit Policy is irrelevant.

The Praying Mantis has kept everyone else out of it until it became obvious, even to an egotist like her, that she’s buggered. When she was forced to beg Labour to help her out, they should have told her to go boil her head - the Tories started it, let them finish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:45 AM

Now for a party political pamphlet from bliar blair june1983.
Labour’s official policy at the 1983 election was to leave the EU, written into a manifesto dubbed “the longest suicide note in history” by its late MP Gerald Kaufman.
Mr Blair added the Brussels institution “has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs”.
The arch Remoaner was first elected to the House of Commons in 1983, and the literature handed out to his Sedgefield constituents in the North East proudly displays his Eursosepcticism.

This is the same chappie popping up like turd in a punchbowl trying desperately to thwart the will of the people and reverse Brexit.

You could not make it up!

By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?

For example:
Jeremy Corbyn spent PMQs railing against highly paid FTSE 100 chief executives, challenging May: “is this a Government of the many or in the pockets of an elite few?” Unfortunately John McDonnell didn’t seem to get the memo in time, he’s spent the last two days hobnobbing at exclusive events… with FTSE 100 chief executives.
Awkward…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:32 AM

is a product of his inventiveness and hard work"
Then a feller on shift work assembling vacuum cleaners for a pittance is worth less than someone who hardly has to break out in a sweat
About time these cap-doffers realised that one would be useless without the other
Not suggesting that the contribution is equal, but the differential is beyond all reason - and as Dyson has amply demonstrated, the richer you get, the more likely you are to be able to avoid paying your share
Virtually all inventions are a team effort anyway - one has an idea and a team (of lesser paids) makes it a practicality

As I've said before - without plumbers, the world would have to shit in the garden, and without electricians, they'd have to do it in the dark
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:22 AM

Unfortunately, our cap-doffers and forelock-tuggers aren’t able to see these things while their faces are buried in the toffs’ arse-cracks and their tongues are massaging the toffs’ anal sphincters, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:11 AM

Of course, I forgot to mention the Airblade V, which does away with the trough but which blasts your germs all over the washroom. And God help you if, like me, you have a V6 cordless vacuum cleaner with it's sticking valve, seizing rollers and clogging drum, not to speak of the filter that won't let you use the "max" setting, and the drum emptying mechanism (you'll need a long stick to unclog the drum's holes, by the way) that automatically has you inhaling toxic dust... the DC14 Animal we had almost set our house on fire when the motor suddenly burned out, and the plastic extendable hoses on the uprights last about six months if you're lucky. The inventiveness he's shown was plagiarised from Heath Robinson and the hard work he does consists of sitting on his arse watching the farming subsidies rolling in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 08:47 AM

Interesting parallels here

Switzerland to re-run referendum because voters were not given the facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 07:59 AM

Oh yes I fogot that of course, Stanron. Every rich person is self made and deserves it.

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:52 AM

He's become mega-rich by inventing over-priced and unreliable technology that, er, works when it works...and by creaming off the CAP, which I will agree is the biggest absurdity of the EU. And I absolutely don't want to know what's in that nasty damp little trough at the bottom of every Dyson Airblade hand-dryer. Don't touch the sides whatever you do...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 05:55 AM

It is not difficult to see that inequality between Dyson and the man in the street is a product of his inventiveness and hard work. He was not handed it on a plate by a cabal of hidden power brokers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:51 AM

Where is the equality between Jean Claude Junker and me?

So the inequality between Dyson and the man in the the street is fine but the inequality between Junker and you is not? There is something seriously screwy with you logic, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:56 AM

"Nationalism"
Now it all becomes clear !!!
Why didn't you say that in the first place ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 10:27 PM

Steve. Don't you get that Internationalism is an Ideology? It betrays Nationalism. If you support it you are, in Nationalistic terms, a traitor.

As for equality, where is the equality between a pope and a peasant? Where is the equality between Jean Claude Junker and me? You appear to be the ideologue and I am not seeing much in the way of rational argument

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:29 PM

That's the most ridiculous fantasy I've read in years. You are a tribal Tory, an ideologue of the very worst, self-interested kind. It ill-behoves you to criticise what you see as the ideology of those who are internationalists, who see people as human beings and who want to see a drive towards equality. You and your tribe, a tribe steeped in racism and xenophobia, can't even sniff that. And you have no understanding whatsoever of the way the EU works. Those of us who, unlike you who follows the Teribus path like sheep, go to the trouble of finding out, in contrast to people like you who operate solely on received wisdom, know that the EU is extremely imperfect and we freely acknowledge the need for reform, whilst knowing that the fundamental structures to achieve that are in place. But I can't discuss that with you because you've chosen to keep yourself wilfully and ideologically ignorant, typical Tory that you are. Your Roman Empire juxtaposition is just about the stupidest thing I've read here all day, and, believe me, you have some stiff competition. Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:03 PM

Steve. Motes, beams and maybe the eyes are yours. Had it occurred to you that you may be the one tied to an ideology? The initial idea of the EU was a good one. Unfortunately what it has become is a kind of modern day re-iteration of the Roman Empire and it's successor the Holy Roman Church.

It is not interested in democracy, it is not interested in the welfare of it's subjects. It is interested in it's own wealth, status and power. Like the Catholic church it has an ideology, with which you appear to agree, it has a closed system of appointing it's own leaders and it enforces a hierarchical structure. I wonder whether St Cuthbert realised what he was doing when he gave in to Romes rule. Maybe he foresaw war and destruction if he tried to resist. The Irish church model seems to have been closer to the Cathar heresy and look what happened to them. It took us a millennium to get free of the Roman church. We are now in a position to extract ourselves from it's political equivalent. It's got to be worth the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:40 PM

"There seems to be a lot of confusion here between"
Checkmate, I think

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:44 PM

The UN has been serially emasculated by the United States, which mortally undermines it via detestable vetos and by failing to pay its dues, and by the general hegemony of those giant and corrupt nations which regard themselves as "superpowers." The EU may be twenty-eight nations, but the US is one nation almost as big and China is one nation four times as big. And the individual nations of the EU, what's more, enjoy individual sovereignty and nationalistic pride, in the best sense, that helps to retain their individuality. Your blinkers are preventing you from seeing the right targets. Shed your ideology and see the real picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:30 PM

Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner

I think it would be polite if a mudelf wishes to make deletions and substitute their own material in my posts they should make it clear that they have done so

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:16 PM

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between Dyson the man (who is uk tax resident and paid 128 million pounds tax last year to the exchequer) and Dyson the company(record annual profits of £1.1bn for 2018) that pays tax on turnover in whatever country sales occur in. This is a subtlety overlooked by leftward leaning persons, whose knowledge of finance and accounting is so abysmal they trash the economy each time they are in power(eg Beneficent Brown flogging off a chunk of the UK gold reserves for a third of it's value)

As an individual Mr Dyson can move his assets wherever he wishes, for whatever reasons motivate him. This right is embedded in EU legislation. He employs 12000 worldwide, roughly 33% in UK. Like any astute business man he makes his widgets where they create most profit.
How much do those decrying him here pay in tax, or employ, or even have the nous to create anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:05 PM

But you miss the point, Steve, that I am very much in favour of a stronger more-democratic UNITED Nations (partly via getting rid of "clubs" such as the EU, Commonwealth, African Union, etc.),

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:56 PM

I have a long memory and, though you haven't posted much recently, I recall you as a person who dresses up intolerance in the gentle cloak of poetry. I suggest you remind yourself as to how what we now know as the EU originated: as a recoil against the extreme nationalism that pitched us into two world wars. And it's worked. Argue misguidedly for brexit if you like, but kindly don't argue for a return to the sort of Europe that was constantly at war with itself for centuries and that gave us the two most dreadful events in human history, and the Holocaust to boot. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:26 PM

We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the United Nations; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:24 PM

"...if you frighten them off we will all be seriously poorer."

Ah, so the mega-rich are holding the country to ransom then! Makes a change - it was always the unions in our day! Bwahahaha!

What hypocrisy...