BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM
The full figures for the poll Iains referred to are here
The composition of the Brexit party is striking.

Affiliation last election:
42% voted conservative
10% voted Labour.

The age breakdown is:
18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%50-64: 34%
65+: 42%
Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%

Less than 60% fit into a 'Social Grade'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Social grade is a meaningless metric anyway. What it usually means is income, which does not really correlate with attitudes, and correlates only loosely with opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:20 PM

The full report explains all, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

Brexit party Composition

18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%
50-64: 34%
65+: 42%


Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%

Rather misleading social grading. The largest demographic is 65+. Retirees are classed as Social grade E, regardless of prior employment history or educational attainment. It must also be pointed out that of the retired tertiary education was available to far fewer than today:

Students obtaining university degrees, UK
First degrees

1950 17,337
1960 22,426
1970 51,189
1980 68,150
1990 77,163
2000 243,246
2005 278,380
2010 330,720

Trying to make it a class or educational issue simply does not fly.
2011 350,800

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.

You do not know what the view of the majority of people hold on this issue. Nor do I. Nor does anyone on here. The referendum was a snapshot of people's views 3 years ago and even then we did not know what the majority view of the UK people was. All we can say is that of those who voted, a few more voted to leave than did not. We do not know why people voted as they did. We do not know the views of those who did not or could not vote. We do not know how people would vote given another chance. We do not know new voters views. How can you possibly say that remain is not the view of the majority of UK people? Putting it in capitals does not make it any more true.

And FWIW being called a dickhead if far preferable to being told I should be shot or fuck off and live in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.

You do not know what the view of the majority of people hold on this issue.

No, I do not know what the majority view is. Although the majority of the voting public voted to leave the EU. But your (partial) quote was of me saying what the majority view, ON THIS SITE appears to be.

How can you possibly say that remain is not the view of the majority of UK people?
I couldn't, and so I didn't, even if you wish to imply that comment to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:12 AM

Ok Nigel, here is the full quite

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!

You say quite clearly that the majority view here, the Mudcat Cafe, which we know is remain, is not representative of the UK people. In your next post you say you do not know the view of the UK people. If you do not know the view of the UK people, how do you know the view here is not representative of it?

Looking forward to your linguistic contortions to explain that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:45 AM

The leavers are fully aware that the majority would almost certainly vote to stay if they were given an opportunity to re-confirm their decision - there can be no other possible reason for not allowing a second vote
Even the rich-rats like Rees-Mogg and Dyson are rapidly deserting the sinking ship and putting their personal fortunes elsewhere

Like these
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-companies-leaving-uk-list-job-cuts-eu-no-deal-customs-union-a8792296.html

Not an option for most of us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

I think that shows that class is meaningless in the UK at least in the way it is used. Apart from the very rich, the Rees Moggs of the world, we are almost all pretty much the same. So I am social class E now, having moved from probably AB before I retired. Despite very little drop in my disposable income. What is not true though is that making this about educational achievement is meaningless. Degree level education was only available to a minority in my day, so in this sense there will be a correlation with age. But don't look at that, look at O levels and GCSEs, which were/are available to all. Those with 5 or more O levels, or GCSEs grade A-C, are much more likely to have voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:33 AM

The leavers are fully aware that the majority would almost certainly vote to stay if they were given an opportunity to re-confirm their decision

That is simply an opinion with zero data to support it. Conversely the surge in membership of the Brexit party would suggest perhaps the opposite is true.

Degree level education was only available to a minority in my day, so in this sense there will be a correlation with age. But don't look at that, look at O levels and GCSEs, which were/are available to all. Those with 5 or more O levels, or GCSEs grade A-C, are much more likely to have voted remain.

The same correlation with age occurs for OL and GCSE making your argument fallacious.
Percentage of School Leavers Achieving 5+ A-C (or Pass) O-level or A*-CGCSE (1962–2006)
15% 1962
24% 1986
58% 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:37 AM

We could muse for a long time on the deficiencies of social categorisation measures, but that would take us a long way from Brexit, so I will resist.

The effect of the fragmentation of the pro-remain vote into separate camps (ChangeUK, LibDem, Green etc) is difficult to assess. Because the EU voting uses a version of proportional representation it does not matter too much in one sense because the 'pro-remain/pro-leave' representation more or less follows the sum of the votes for that viewpoint, rather than the separate parties. However there is a complication of a minimum threshold of I think 10% (or more in some places), and that could end up eliminating a viewpoint entirely if it becomes too fragmented.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM

An O level is an O level, one of mine was an E I think. O level = A-C GCSE. In any case thats not the point, secondary education was available and free to all in 1962, which is about when I went to school. If people despite that did not get the grades, thats nobody's fault but their own. And it is people who have not put in the effort to get anywhere in life, and are now casting around for someone else to blame, who are likely to have voted for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

The minimum threshold is an issue and thats what I will be looking at when I decide my vote. But that vote will go to one of the clear anti brexit parties. Unless Labour come out clearly in favour of Starmer's viewpoint in the meantime, and chuck out the wreckers like Hoey and Flint.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM

"I think that shows that class is meaningless in the UK at least in the way it is used."
How so ?The Rees Moggs and Dysons can continue to campaign for Brexit while at the same time, making their own investments safe by moving them to safer parts of the world
Those who voted for leaving from our walk of life did so because they fell for the lies that by doing so it would improve our lot (particularly by keeping foreigners out - the oldest excuse for poverty used by the establishment)
They/we have no other waay of protecting what litle we have
Pretty significant difference, as afar as I'm concerned
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:11 AM

There have been some really daft postings on this thread but, if we were handing out prizes for daftness, I would nominate David Carter's post of 'Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM '.

quote

And it is people who have not put in the effort to get anywhere in life, and are now casting around for someone else to blame, who are likely to have voted for Brexit.

Tell that to Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Starkey and the boss of Wetherspoons. They are not my idea of people who didn't put in the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:18 AM

The whole point of BrexShit is to benefit the wealthy and powerful - they started it, they’ve driven it, and they’re still driving it, aided and abetted by The Nicotine-Stained Frog, The Blond Buffoon, The Lying Scottish Viper, Jake Rich-Mong, and supported by their brown-nose, working-class mucky-toffs on this thread and elsewhere.

Everything to do with their wealth, SFA to do with benefitting the rest of the people of the U.K.

End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:23 AM

Having spent many hours discussing market regulation with a father in law who was a senior economist for the World Bank, and decades working for the Economic Regulation Group of the Civil Aviation Authority, I think I have picked up the basics of economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:40 AM

It was in response to Stanron's post, Jim. I may disagree with his views but he is far from being a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:56 AM

Carole Cadwalladr tells it like it is.

Well who’da thunk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

Jacob Rees Mogg inherited part of his wealth from his grandfather's family who made it by sending my ancestors down their coal mines at age 11. The rest came from his grandmother who married into the family on condition that they converted to catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:17 AM

"It was in response to Stanron's post, Jim"
Sorry Steve - Stanron's just hit and run, not really a fully qualified troll - irritating rater than insulting
My mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:21 AM

Meant to add before my premature ejaculation
Now we have the first fatality in the increasingly unstable Northern Ireland situation.
A young woman journalist was shot dead during rioting as police searched for suspected caches of weapons - not the shape of things to come, I hop
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:46 AM

not the shape of things to come, I hope

As I hope do us all.

And still so many seem to think if you have worked out how to collect tariffs the border is not an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 12:40 PM

Just posted this - it didn't take so let's see if it works this time
Envy has nothing to do with this - there is nothing to admire about these people
They are incapable of carrying out the basic needs of staying alive - If it wasn't for plumbers, they'd have to sit in a field and if it wasn't for electricians they'd have to do it i the dark
The vast majority of them inherit their wealth rather than earn it and they have to buy the services of those with far greater skills to remain where they are - or even just stay alive
Who envy's the figure of fun Rees Mogg has become - I can't think of anybody who would wish to lower themselves to his level ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

EU introduces new minimum rights for 'gig economy' workers like Uber drivers and Deliveroo riders

"The UK could end up following EU rules at this point if the Brexit transition period is extended, meaning the rights could apply to workers in the UK. However, if the UK leaves the EU earlier, employees will not benefit from the rules."


I am sure Nigel Farage will be doing his best to make sure everyone knows that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 03:54 AM

They are incapable of carrying out the basic needs of staying alive - If it wasn't for plumbers, they'd have to sit in a field and if it wasn't for electricians they'd have to do it i the dark.

It needs to be said that to carry out many kinds of electrical work requires a registered competant person in the UK and many countries have far more stringent codes. This is in order to comply with building codes,household insurance and potential liability claims and even to enable a dwelling to be sold.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

THe Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 place similar restrictions on a householder, especially when concerning pressurized heating systems.

Any fool can change a tap washer or rewire a plug- not many have a comprehensive knowledge of the regulations to to carry out more complex work.
Those that make loads of dosh employ experts. Why have a dog and bark?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 05:45 AM

This is purely anecdotal, I know, but I have just come back from the chemist having picked up some supplies for my wife. There were two people in front of me. The first person could not get their prescription because of shortages at the suppliers but the chemist hoped it would be available by the end of next week. The second was diabetic and none of theirs was available either, but the pharmacist was off trying to find some alternative while the customer was just repeating plaintively "what am I supposed to do?"

We know there have been shortages due to stockpiling because of Brexit, so there is a potential connection, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM

DMcG your evidence may be anecdotal but representative of a problem across the EU (as I pointed out many months ago when the issue was first raised here and blamed on Brexit)

Any internet search will establish medicine shortages are increasing throughout the EU, not just in the UK.


https://www.pgeu.eu/en/policy/20:medicine-shortages.html

It has as much to do with a diminishing supply base and decreasing profitability as much as anything else.


https://www.hpra.ie/docs/default-source/publications-forms/guidance-documents/adv-g0020-medicines-shortages-framework-v2.pdf?sfv


https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/post-authorisation/medicine-shortages

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 02:06 AM

"they'd have to sit in a field
Should read "shit in a field" of course
And no - in my experience working for more than a few of them, they are incapable of repairing fuses and changing light bulbs
Those who think otherwise (especially those who regard British workers as "barking dogs") need t go and work for a few
Totally reliant on those they despise and leech off CARICATURES ALL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 02:37 AM

Another anecdote while there is little real news about Brexit. For a while by daughter had a boyfriend from one of these uber-rich families. They had a magnificent kitchen, certainly of the standard that it could appear in a glossy "Ideal Homes" sort of magazine. My daughter attempted to do something trivial in it - make a cup of tea, perhaps. They were horrified: none of the work surfaces were waterproof and the slightest splash or drip risked damaging it. It turned out the kitchen had never been used - every single meal was eaten out in a restaurant, even breakfasts, and there was a separate scullery where a kettle could be boiled. The kitchen's sole function was to look impressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 08:39 AM

"Another anecdote while there is little real news about Brexit."
One of the great trends today is to manufacture goods for appearance rather that practical use - a pig to install and in the long rem, made to look at - useless and built to be replaced

Fats and opinions
So there we have it
Patriotic Rich people incapable of changing a light bulb or mending a fuse are ok to look down on those of us they rely on for everyday living and are entitled to drag us out of Europe while investing their money elsewhere
Great Easter Message

My memories of working for the ricvh were educational, to say the least
The richest man in England one locked me in his kitchen when he 'slipped ou fo an hour' presumably because he was worried I's runn of with the family silver
We worked in his luxury Westminster first-floor apartment throughout the winter and were forced to climb a frost-covered ladder because 'the neigbours "didn't like workmen using the stairs"   
People like that are unfit to hold public positions like occupying seats in The House of Lords
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 01:20 PM

So there we have it
Patriotic Rich people incapable of changing a light bulb or mending a fuse are ok to look down on those of us they rely on for everyday living and are entitled to drag us out of Europe while investing their money elsewhere.

A highly insulting opinion. The statistics clearly demonstrate that DIY capability is higher among older people. A higher Social class merely means an easier ability to pay for work by tradesmen.

The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 08:49 AM

Hilaire Belloc 1870-1953 probably had the right general idea:

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan.

Being an excellent plumber/electrician is all very well, but unless there is someone you can sell your skills to you will soon run out of work opportunities on your own property.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 09:35 AM

One problem with this approach is the concept there are a fixed set of DIY jobs that to be measured. It is a fiction: the relevant set of tasks varies in each generation and they are broadly the ones most relevant to you. My father had a last and would repair his shoes. I have never done so, nor have my children. On the other hand he would have been hopeless driving a trap on one hand, or creating and managing a spreadsheet on the other. He could have learnt to do either, but it was not relevant so he didn't. I am as capable of changing a plug as most people of my generation, but as almost everything you buy these days comes with a sealed plug pre-installed, I can't remember the last time I did so.

People do as many DIY jobs as they ever did, I would guess. They are just different jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

Incidentally, there was a facebook photo posted this morning of my son and grandson (3) painting his bedroom wall.   I don't see why painting walls is omitted - I am sure most people do this - but plug-changing is something to highlight. It all smacks to me of oldies lamenting how it was in their day …

And, since we are talking traditional skills, my daughter and her fiancé are off in August on a short blacksmith course, the end result of which will be wedding rings they will have made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 11:10 AM

Actually Jim the ones in the House of Lords seem to have a better idea of how to govern in our interests. Its the ones in the House of Commons who are the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM

"Actually Jim the ones in the House of Lords seem to have a better idea of how to govern in our interests"
Six of one - half dozen of the other really
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:01 AM

From Yougov:

Nigel Farage’s new party tops the polls with 27% of the vote

In our first poll on the forthcoming EU Parliament elections last week Nigel Farage’s new outfit stormed into third place with 15% of the vote. This was despite the Brexit Party not having formally launched.

Now, following the burst of publicity that came with their official formation, our second poll, conducted for the People’s Vote, shows the Brexit Party leapfrogging into first place on 27% of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:18 AM

27% is not a majority. We have to ensure that the remain vote gets out and votes for candidates committed to maintaining the place of the UK at the top table of Europe. Whether this includes Labour the have until May 22nd to show.

Note that there is no question of Farage's party "winning the European elections" as some of the more fanciful headlines in the sewer press have said. They are not standing in nearly enough seats to do that. The European elections will be won by either EPP or S&D. We need to vote for candidates who will engage constructively with the new administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

Depends on who you ak really
As 'Yougov is a survey organisation set up by twp Conservative Party activists it doesn't leave much to the imagination who they would ask
I can just see them with their clipboards waking the streets of Mayfair
Guess who is a serial dismisser of surveys when they come up with figures that don't suit him - no prizes, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 06:18 AM

Counting Labour as remain, and the tories as brexit, that is a majority for remain. Lets make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

Just heard on BBC News that the repellent harridan Widdecombe has joined The Nicotine-Stained Frog’s Brexit Party and will stand for election as an MEP. They suit each other, in more ways than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:11 PM

I wonder if our resident Brexiteers one ofwhom has been most vocal in condemning a ex labour MP for criminal offences will do the same to the Conservative MP found guitly today of fiddling expenses.


I shall await the silence.................:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 02:06 AM

It’s deafening, Raggy. No surprise there then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM

"Conservative MP found guilty today of fiddling expenses."
Probably has a great future in Europe before him
"After being implicated (alongside Tim Smith) in the cash-for-questions affair, Neil Hamilton became widely associated with sleaze; he was defeated in the 1997 general election, and subsequently left politics. His wife Christine and he went on to become media celebrities. He left the Conservative Party in 2002, and joined UKIP. He was elected to the National Executive Committee of UKIP in 2011. Following his election to the National Assembly for Wales, he served as UKIP Group Leader between 2016 and 2018."
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

Grant the Brexiteers consistency at least. Christopher Davies has only been found guilty of making false expenses claims in connection with votes. What's to criticise?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:18 AM

Beats groping the hired help I suppose
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM

From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM
Grant the Brexiteers consistency at least. Christopher Davies has only been found guilty of making false expenses claims in connection with votes. What's to criticise?

But, in the great "Expenses Claims Rip-off", where did the blame largely fall?
It's no coincidence the MPs found guilty of fiddling are all Labour

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:53 AM

Tsk, tsk, Nigel. If I was a nitpicker I would point out that an article 6 years out of date is no real measure of what has really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM

A perfect example of wahataboutism Nigel. The question is do you condemn fraud to manipulate permitted spending on elections?
Avoiding answering it by pointing to other offences other people have committed does nothing more than highlight your avoidance.