BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:41 PM

Heh heh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:54 PM

Blair Peach was my friend. My sister saw Jo Cox grow up from a little girl and is a friend of Jo's mother. One a victim of naked police brutality when he was protesting about racism, murdered in fact by a policeman, the other murdered by a white supremacist. I feel these things sharply as you can imagine, but I was what I am now well before both those events. All forms of racism stink, and it makes me bloody sick to think that millions of people were hoodwinked into thinking racist thoughts during that rotten referendum campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:38 PM

These are strange times indeed. I have found myself being very impressed by John Majors passionate opposition to Brexit and today I have been impressed by Michael Hestletines clinical denunication of Johnsons claim to be a "one nation tory"

Could someone please link to the Guardian article, written by Hestletine "Boris Johnson has no right to call himself a one nation conservatve"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:42 PM

Here ya go Raggy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:55 PM

Thanks Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:13 AM

I have just had occasions to revisit Labour's 2017 manifesto. You know, the one that Brexiteers use to say every Labour MP was voted in under a manifesto saying they would leave?

Not surprisingly, that turns out to be a grave distortion. Here is an important paragraph, with my underlining:

Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a cliff-edge’ for the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:26 AM

Worth reading John Major's 'confessions' in this morning's papers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

You know, the one that Brexiteers use to say every Labour MP was voted in under a manifesto saying they would leave? stay leave stay leave stay leave stay????

You know the one that changes from leave to remain depending on whether it is magic grandpa or watson talking, or is it dependent on the state of the tides or phases of the moon?

The Financial Times has a wonderful summary of Labour's in out hokey cokey shambles

https://www.ft.com/content/24550040-d57b-11e9-8367-807ebd53ab77

Must be time for a carry on Compo film!

By the way, ehat is the position of Labour on Brexit today?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:38 AM


Worth reading John Major's 'confessions' in this morning's paper

Not to mention Nicky Morgan's confused statement that she would vote remain in another referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

"Nicky Morgan's confused statement that she would vote remain in another referendum."
Confused is right - I had to replay the item three times before I could (vaguely) understand it
Another crack in Johnson's Junta, as far as I can see
Not only have all the half-decent Tories pissed off - now the worst ones are beginning to
Hopefully that isn't opening the door for scumbuckets like Farage and Robinson
Watch this space
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 12:36 PM

Just read a post from my very wise daughter.

If the government really cared about 'the will of the people', fracking would have been banned years ago. The interests of big business seem more important to the people who are supposed to be in charge of protecting this country.

Selective democracy seems to be the order of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM

If the government cared about the will of the people we'd definitely be stringing dozens a year up and probably birching hundreds of others. We'd be "sending 'em back to where they came from" (even if it was West Bromwich). Actually, it could be that 52% think that right now...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:26 PM

I wouldn't like to generalise from.a single instance, but one UKIP member I know well is definitely in favour of capital punishment.

Meanwhile the conference season is upon us. Jo is playing a tricky hand, I think, and may overreach herself in going for the Revoke option. They are very unlikely to form a government in their own right and splitting themselves off from the other remain supporters is a risk. On the other hand I can see why she wants the LibDems to have a clear and distinct stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:00 PM

I's say things like that in WHISPERED TONES if I were you Mac
He seems to have his hands full at present but it's early days yet
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:02 PM

European Human Rights Legislation
Protocol 1, Article 3 requires the government to support your right to free expression

Protocol 1, Article 3 of the Human Rights Act requires the government to support your right to free expression by holding free elections at reasonable intervals. These elections must enable you to vote in secret.
Are there restrictions to this right?

The right to free elections is absolute. This means it must never be restricted in any way. (fixed term is a restriction)

However, the government can put some limits on the way elections are held. It can also decide what kind of electoral system to have – such as ‘first past the post’, as in UK general elections, or proportional representation.

It seems to me that commie corbyn is clearly frustrating this protocol in clear defiance of the elected government and the majority of the electorate.
It must be time to drag his sorry arse off to court for wholesale abuse of our human rights, along with all who voted with him on both occasions!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:32 PM

Another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:25 PM

The likelihood of this kind of thing is why we gave Whitby a miss this year:

Michael Morpurgo at Sidmouth

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:33 AM

I and others have commented before that the violence is coming from the brexiteers. They would use force to impose their views on everyone else then go on about others being undemocratic. I have no doubt that most are not violent people but it is very telling that the extremists who tend towards violence do all seem to be on the leave side. I have not seen the leaders of that campaign, or any of its supporters on here, denounce that violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:43 AM

Why would they? Even better than God, they have The Will Of The People on their side...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:50 AM

Article in 'The Independent' reports around 40 councils anticipate a rise in civil unrest (including hate-crime) if there is a 'No-Deal' Brexit

Official documents from 63 councils uncovered by the People’s Vote campaign have revealed local authorities fear that fundamental services could suffer and others could be cut if the UK crashes out of the EU.

... And just under two-thirds said civil unrest, increased tensions between communities and public disorder could be sparked, including Dartford council which warned of an “increase in hate crime” as the area had “always been a target” for extreme right wing groups.

====

(Dartford is a particular personal concern, as it is where my Mauritian daughter-in-law lives.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:52 AM

"They would use force to impose their views on everyone else then go on about others being undemocratic"
The bit on violence was deleted but it has to be discussed
Brexit was squeezed though using the built-in historical prejudices (xenophobia) of the English people which were a hangover of Empire.
The threatening nature of Brexit became apparent within days of the vote, with descriptions from people who had been asked when they were going back to where they came from - that has seriously escalated and has become a common feature of this conflict

A VEILED THREAT, IF EVER THERE WAS ONE "Vote for Brexit, or else"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

I have no doubt that there will be millions of people disappointed whatever happens. Which is why a compromise is needed. No deal, threatening violence or "you lost, get over it" is not a compromise. Cameron and his sorry bunch dropped us in it then he ran for the hills. They should be made to get us out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM

Excellent ten minutes from Tom Shakespeare on A Point Of View this morning on Radio 4. His theme was changing your mind. Among a number of quotes germane to this thread, he quoted Bertrand Russell thus: "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” Incredibly inappropriately, I instantly heard that as "...leavers are cocksure while remainers are full of doubt." I'm just off to confession. But give it a listen if you missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 05:13 AM

"His theme was changing your mind"
I thought a superb examplle of this was when a Question Time audience member tried to get a straight answer from a Brexiteer who said he has changed his mind, starting out as a remainer but now wanting to leave - the audience member failed to get any answer whatever but his parting show was "You are allowed to change your mind - why can't we"

Personally, I find some of the aggressive and insulting postings made to this discussion perfect examples of the behaviour that incites violence
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 08:33 AM

Anybody who went to Sidmouth witness the Brexiteer spitting on Michael Morpurgo or talk to Morpurgo afterwards?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 03:17 AM

Is it in doubt, Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

I didn't suggest it was in doubt. But somebody who was there might be able to fill the story out, and maybe identify the Brexiteer responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:27 AM

Ok, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 05:45 AM

The Lib Dem Parliamentary Candidate for North Devon, Kirsten Johnson, claimed that her prospective constituency voted to Leave because “it’s 98% white, we don’t have a lot of ethnic minorities living in North Devon, people aren’t exposed to people from other countries, they don’t travel a lot.”

Johnson went on to claim that that North Devon hasn’t “appreciated the advantages” of being in the EU because it is “isolated, rural, and low income.” She went on to imply that leave voters were linked to hate crime

You have to admit it is a hell of a campaign speech (for Nigel and the Brexit party.) A typical remainer approach though, to insult the brexiteers.

The deluded creature must have the brain capacity of a well anaesthetised amoeba. This is the same bunch that want to revoke article 50 but refuse to have an election in order to gain legitimacy/destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:01 AM

I see Boris is taking his testosterone-fuelled hubris over to Brussels again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

I'm surprised not to see mention of Thursday's Guardian cryptic crossword here, with its embedded message in the top and bottom row of the grid. And some pertinent answers as well.
See it here: Guardian 27,924 cryptic
Of course, it could be that no-one here does the crossword.
If you can't be bothered to solve the crossword just click on 'reveal all' at the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:36 AM

"I see Boris is taking his testosterone-fuelled hubris over to Brussels again..."
GOD HELP US ALL

Hi Nige !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:54 AM

Whether you agree with the sentiment or not, the is a definite cleverness to that crossword. There are already a lot of constraints when creating crosswords - conventions of symmetries for example - so to add in a whole new set of constraints is impressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM

Having just watched yet another depressing bout of news, as much as I detest the idea of Brexit, I'm beginning to think it takes second place to the idea that Johnson and his cretins will survive this farce
These people are dangerously insane
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:02 AM

As soon as I saw Nigel's name I was convinced that he was going to nitpick me over Brussels. It was Luxembourg, not Brussels. There. I've self-nitpicked.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:32 AM

"As soon as I saw Nigel's name"
I was hoping hews going to hang aroud
I doubt if he would be stupid enough to claim that Johnson was elected by or represented any "majority"
Your really couldn't make this stuff up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:38 AM

As predicted, the EU remain unimpressed. The European commission has just put out this statement after the lunchtime meeting.

President Jean-Claude Juncker and Prime Minister Johnson had a working lunch today in Luxembourg. The aim of the meeting was to take stock of the ongoing technical talks between the EU and the UK and to discuss the next steps.

President Juncker recalled that it is the UK’s responsibility to come forward with legally operational solutions that are compatible with the withdrawal agreement. President Juncker underlined the commission’s continued willingness and openness to examine whether such proposals meet the objectives of the backstop. Such proposals have not yet been made...The EU27 remain united.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 10:08 AM

It appears the EU are using Johnson's presence to sum up exactly what Britain's position is on leaving - nothing more
The general consensus is that there is as much of a chance of arriving at a a compromise involving selling out the Irish border as there is Bolton Wanderers winning the World Cup
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 12:05 PM

Concerning the Luxembourg press conference, Michael Deacon of the Telegraph tweeted:

My favourite episode of The Incredible Hulk is the one where a small group of people shouted too loudly so he ran away

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 12:10 PM

Cri de coeur from the prime minister of Luxembourg Xavier Bettel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM

There are no grounds whatsoever for claiming that there is today is a majority in this country for a no deal Brexit, or even for any Brexit.

Even in 2016 people rmerely voted to leave the European Union, that was the only thing on the ballot paper. There was nothing on that ballot paper about any of Theresa May's red lines such as having leaving the custome union or single market, or abolishing freedom of travel, all of which were in existence for years before the EU was established. A simple departure from the EU would have been available with no problems, and wouldn't have meant any problems in Ireland, for example.

And of course the margin of victory in 2016 was far smaller than the number of fresh voters who have joined the electoral roll since then, most of whom are generally accepted even by Brexiteers to be remainers.

And what should settle the argument about what is the "will of the people" is the fact that there is evidently unanimity among Brexiteers that a fresh People's Vote must not be allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

And of course the margin of victory in 2016 was far smaller than the number of fresh voters who have joined the electoral roll since then, most of whom are generally accepted even by Brexiteers to be remainers.

There again, it is also generally accepted that it was (generally) the older generation which voted Brexit. A large number of voters will also have moved into this group (partly made up for by those who have died).

The whole electorate have grown older, so it is not necessarily just the youngest group which has increased in numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:06 AM

"And what should settle the argument about what is the "will of the people" is the fact that there is evidently unanimity among Brexiteers that a fresh People's Vote must not be allowed."

That's right. I think another vote would be close and probably not solve much, but I have a feeling it would mean we'd be staying put. We remainers would then certainly find it infra dig to go bleating on about "the will of the people." The country reflects the position of parliament in that there is no majority for anything. We are in this sorry mess first because we had that referendum in the first place and second because the bar was set way too low for a leave decision. Staying is relatively easy to reverse. Leaving is, in effect, irrevocable. The logic is irrefutable that, in times of uncertainty, the status quo is the safest place to be unless there is the OVERWHELMING and obvious desire for change. There is nothing overwhelming about less-than-52 to more-than-48. There's plenty of skin-of-the-teeth, and, moreover, if I might throw an awkward fact into the mix, 62+% of the electorate did not vote to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:18 AM

Well, Nigel, as the wrinklies drop off the top the sucklings come in at the bottom. That doesn't necessarily maintain the present numbers split unless you assume that the current cohort gradually turns more brexity as they age. Too much has changed since 2016 to make that assumption. Not least, the profile of the UK in the EU has been raised astronomically. Until the referendum, Europe was hardly the most controversial issue on earth, and a sorry litany of Tory leaders has bitten the dust when they tried to make a Big Thing of it (poor William Hague...). Since the referendum, the hyped-up issue has already bagged Cameron and May. We could wish for a hat-trick. Well maybe you're not one of the "we", so perhaps you'd care to defend your current exalted leader for us...

Even after yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM

Boris Johnson walks into a Bank to cash a cheque. As he approaches the cashier he says, "Good morning, Miss, could you please cash this cheque for me?"

Cashier:"It would be my pleasure. Could you please show me your ID?"

Johnson :"Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Boris Johnson, Prime Minister.

Cashier:"Yes, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation, etc., I must insist on seeing ID."

Johnson: Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."

Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr Johnson, but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."

Johnson,"Come on please, I am urging you, please cash this cheque."

Cashier: "Look sir, here is an example of what we can do. One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque."

"Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot where the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque. So, sir, what can you do to prove that it is you and only you?"

*Johnson stands there thinking and thinking and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do. I don't have a clue."*

Cashier: That will do, will that be large or small notes , Mr Johnson?....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

Nigel Farage walked into a bar and says "give me a pint!"
The barman obliges, and pours the pint over his head
"What are you doing?!" asked Farage "I didn't want it over my head!"
"You didn't specify how you wanted it ... as long as you get the pint, this way must be as good as in a glass, right?"
"Well, okay, I want another one ... but this time in a glass"
"Nope ... you only get to ask once."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:09 AM

The Electoral Commission has found that two Remain campaigns that were set up less than a month before the referendum campaign worked together, breaking electoral law.

    “We found that the ‘5 seconds campaign’ was a joint campaign run by WUAV and DDB UK Limited. Spending on the campaign was ‘joint’ or ‘common plan’ spending.”

Wake Up And Vote (WUAV) and DDB were just two of five campaigns that were all set up less than a month before the referendum, sharing big donors, and in total funnelling more than a million pounds into the Remain cause. The others seem to have avoided proper scrutiny…

It has only taken three years! This clearly illustrates the electoral Commission is totally unfit for purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 01:39 PM

OK, I am just getting round to commenting on the Luxembourg recation, where it seems Furious Tories invoke Second World War after Luxembourg leader's Boris Johnson press conference and are going on about Luxembourg trapping the Prime Minister and humiliating him by refusing to move the press conference indoors.


Press conferences don't just happen. Several days beforehand there are exchanges of proposals on how it will be run. I would have hoped there were people on the UK side thoughtful enough to notice:
... he had a very clear heckling background when he gave his press conference in Downing Street
... he was heckled in a walkabout in Doncaster, which made the news
... he was heckled during a speech in Rotherham on 'The Northern Powerhouse'
... there are lots of 'stop the coup' rallies nationwide

- so maybe now, several days before the conference we should ask for the press Q&A to be indoors.
And had they done so, Luxembourg would surely not have insisted it must be outside. To think they would requires a high level of paranoia, in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

To be or not to be ? Proroguing is the question!
an analysis:


http://judicialpowerproject.org.uk/r-miller-v-the-prime-minister-article-ix-prorogation-and-jurisdiction/

The article 9 mentioned above is:
Freedom of speech is guaranteed by article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1689: `freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament'. It is the single most important parliamentary privilege

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:49 PM

Laboour has won the Israeli election wheeeeee
Mabe the fascist tide is on the ebb