BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM

So now that Tusk acknowledges that the whole thing since calling the referendum has been in the name of internal political party division, when is he going to get his act together and make sure that the majority of the UK population who are caught in the crossfire are protected form all this. Whether or not he likes the fact, we are all members of an EU state and have the same rights as the rest of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM

Theresa May's red lines were drawn well after the push for brexit, during which push there patently wasn't a plan. In fact, she wasn't even in charge, and she wasn't even one of those pushing for brexit. You have it somewhat arse about face, Stanron.

And well said, Donald Tusk, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Here's a little song for you all (Daily Mail) to the tune of 'Daisy, Daisy':-

Brexit, Brexit, time to say toodle-oo.
We want exit, Brussels it's up to you
To end this unhappy marriage,
Although we keep Nigel Farage,
Just set us free
and you will see
We'll shake hands with a new EU!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM

Nice one Sen. I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM

Sorry Senoufou, not only is that childish, it's passing the buck to the EU for a situation that the UK has created.

The UK created this debacle it is up the UK to present a solution instead of blaming "Johnny Foreigner"

Having said that I'm not surprised that it was printed in the Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

Couldn't agree more, Raggytash. We are in a terrible situation and levity concerning the crisis is not only unfunny but also totally misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

It is only up to the EU to decide if the UK's proposals meet their objectives. There is no obligation on the EU to accept what it thinks is a bad deal. "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

DMcG wrote: "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.

Good. Let's go for no deal. The UK hard left have demonstrated their total lack of good humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM

I think you are misunderstanding, Stanron. The point is the UK *does* want a deal as expressed by all the Malthouse compromise stuff. But the EU is under no obligation to accept it. Of the UK had not wanted deal it could have said so something like 18 months ago and just worked for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Well Stanron, you seem to regard Jeremy Corbyn as hard left, and he has written to May laying out the conditions for a deal that he would support. The choice seems to be between this and remain. May cannot get anything through the commons without opposition party support.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Corbyn is a grubby little opportunist. Now all can see him for what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

An interesting snippet:
"Accordingly, on the basis of the EU's own view of what is legally allowed under Article 50 and on the basis of which the negotiations proceeded, the backstop in its present form is illegal as a matter of EU law. The Attorney-General of the UK came to a similar conclusion in paragraph 17 of his advice to the government of 13 November 2018. It could also be argued that the backstop is inconsistent with the aim of the Treaty on the European Union to promote peace (expressed in its Article 3) since it is inconsistent with the institutional provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and therefore undermines it.
EU law provides for a specific procedure for ensuring the legality of an envisaged international agreement before it is concluded. The procedure is set out in Article 218(11) TFEU and is regularly used."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM

Today's light relief

Insults by EU unacceptable, say people who regularly compare it to Hitler

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

Corbyn seems to be the only one looking for middle ground though. I don't entirely agree with him, I think we should just stay in. But he is at least looking for a compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM

Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who preached against the 21st Century European Empire to an Ireland asked to vote again because they gave the wrong answer in the first vote? The leader of the party supporting a second vote for the UK because they gave the wrong answer to the first vote?

Principles and consistency or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

For people supposedly in favour of Brexit, the Brexiteers seem quite upset that Corbyn is listing ideas for discussion which would enable Labour to support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

As Betty Boothroyd commented in her fine Brexit speech the other day

"If a democracy can't be allowed to change it's mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

Going on later to quote Harold Wilson

"Anyone who claimed that membership of the European community was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton."

There appear to be a few of each on here...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

I thought corbyn imposed a 3 line whip for article 50. They already support brexit, unless they have been lying to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

" they gave the wrong answer in the first vote?"
No - Ireland doesn't hold referenda to get "the right answer" it does so as the feelings of the voters obliviously shift - that way we got same sex marriage, 20ist century rights to pregnancy termination rights and are set fair to gain divorce reforms in line with the rest of the world - none of which would have been obtained had the early decisions have remained carved in stone
Europe doesn't have an "

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM

Whoops
Europe doesn't have an "Empire" though I would guess it takes an ex-Imperial power to describe co-operation between States without having Britain at the helm as such

Also reported that Britain's economy on the point of stalling thanks to uncertainty about Brexit and has so far cost the country £64.5bn since the referendum.
Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM

Wonderfully off topic as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

There is nothing in any way undemocratic about providing people a chance to think again about an important decision. "Are you sure?" Is a perfectly reasonable question. It's even built into the legal system when it comes to divorce proceedings, withered there is always a "decree nisi" before any divorce takes effect.

In analogous circumstances referendums on the EU have been rerun after an initial "no" vote in three countries - Ireland, Denmark and Norway. In Ireland and Denmark the result of the second referendum was that people voted the other way - and in both countries there is now overwhelming support for EU membership. In Norway the second referendum confirmed the result of the first, and currently public opinion on membership is still split down the middle.

Does anyone claim that these countries are somehow less democratic than the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

"obliviously shift"
Obviously shift - obviously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM

Well if you are going to bring divorce into it, how about this? In most divorces a partner who has contributed to the marriage gets a proportion of the assets on leaving, not a bill. The UK has contributed more to the EU budget than it has received. We should be getting our share of the assets back as we leave. Not paying a bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

Now that is argument of someone who thinks we have the upper hand in the negotiations...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

The EU had many children sired by the UK. We should let the EU keep the house and pay maintenance to support the children...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM

You people are weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM

I find the term 'you people' weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM

"Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco"

And this would be the self-same Boris Johnson who, the morning after the referendum, emerged from his front door looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights, with "Oh fuck, that wasn't supposed to happen!" written all over his ugly face, and who promptly shat his boxers and ran away when it was suggested that he should take charge of the BrexShit process?

He's a shameless POS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

"You people are weird."
I find people who make statements and refuse to reply to responses even weirder - sort of "none so deaf...." if you know what I mean
I didn't bring divorce into anything I used it as an example of how people are prone to changing their minds when the consequences become clear to them - not catered for in the UK
You ignore, your compatriot Nigel does a runner
He who refusees to fight, but runs away
Lives to run another day - as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:08 AM

Dissent in the Labour ranks. Brought by the illustrious Guido(of course)

https://order-order.com/2019/02/07/leslie-tells-corbyn-pick-phone-maduro/

You would think they would concentrate on Brexit,but with corbyn at the helm perhaps not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

More good news from the IMF.
"I'm no great follower of the economic predictions which the IMF is prone to make, but when it is downgrading so many EU economies (especially Germany and France) and forecasting that the UK is likely to enjoy the best economic growth – despite Brexit – we should listen."

http://www.cityam.com/272046/despite-apocalyptic-brexit-warnings-good-news-keeps-coming

Here comes the gold. Perhaps frankincense and myrrh come after the 29th March when we kick the wise(?) men of Brussels into touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

Bank of England have said that Britain is facing the slowest rise in the economy for over a decade thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

HAPPY DAYS are HERE AGAIN - DEFINITELY NOT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Happy days are here again?
Perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 02:20 PM

******* Becket..... !!!
See one of his plays and your glad he got stabbed in the cathedral
She's wasted on Castle though !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:26 AM

Just got it Jim - :-D

Lovely quote posted by a friend on Facebook (Thanks Maureen)

"“I’m going to deliver it on time,” she carried on. “That’s what I’m going to do for the British public.” It is scarcely worth repeating that half the country doesn’t want it delivered on time. They don’t want it delivered at all. At some point, in the near and far too late future, it’s possible she’ll work out she should never have pretended to be Winston Churchill, charged with some sacred mission to deliver Britain to its promised land. The promised land will be terrible. She knows it, and not only can she not say it, she can’t extend her emotional range to acknowledge that she is dragging at least half her country kicking and screaming towards it."
-Tom Peck in today's Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

I was trying to post the link to that piece earlier, Dave, but I couldn't get it to work. Tom Peck says precisely what I was thinking when I saw that interview yesterday - the dead eyes, the grimacing mouth...the lights were on, but there was no-one home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 04:18 AM

Thanks for the link, Monique.

Out of interest, I think you are in France aren't you? If so, what is the general French view of Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

Donald Tusk tells Theresa May that Jeremy Corbyn plan could end Brexit deadlock

What is the betting that May will not go for any part of Corbyn's plan and it will still be his fault?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

"Thanks for the link, Monique."
Ditto
One of the things Britain has totally failed to grasp is that it is their choice and their problem so pointing fingers and blaming everybody else for the ongoing mess is cowardly and stupid
This crass decision has impacted on so many other people who are forced to clean up after the mess that is Brexit and still May is demanding that they compromise to accommodate her - how insane can this get before somebody pulls the plug?
Britain is now an international laughing-stock alongside Comb-over Trump
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

I find it impossible to have any respect for a man who lacks the spine to admit he's bald.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Would that also have applied to John Wayne?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:45 AM

Reported on Guardian live:
Donald Trump is being urged to play hardball with the UK when it negotiates a trade deal with the US after leaving the EU, Huffington Post reports.

It says the US Department of Trade asked industry what the president should extract from post-Brexit Britain and the answers from lobbyists for big firms included:

* Changing how NHS chiefs buy drugs to suit big US pharmaceutical companies

* Britain scrapping its safety-first approach to safety and food standards.

* Law changes that would allow foreign companies to sue the British state.

* Removing protections for traditional British products.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM

So much for 'Taking back control'!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM

It is remarkably well aligned with what Raab, Patel and others argued in favour of in Britannia Unchained, so there is no need to delude ourselves that no UK government would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

It's not exactly a secret, we've known for a long time what the intentions of the Trump-led US government are with regard to a trade agreement with the Brexited, exposed and, in comparative terms, considerably weaker UK. And, of course, they will have us firmly by the testicles.

And still, the Brexshiteers blunder on towards the brink...the extent of their idiocy is breathtaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:57 AM

The US's desire for laws making it okay for companies to sue states is nothing new: I think this was a possibility within the EU. And of course they were lobbying the EU on similar terms, which was one argument I heard in favour of coming out.

What do we want with their stuff anyway? Odd bit of good music, what else is there? Spam like in the war? Suppose it might come to that though :(

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/07/disaster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

The only problem is that it is an article from a rabid leftwing newspaper desperate to peddle anything that makes a case for resisting Brexit. It is purely conjecture and the articles author, Mr Monbiot is a treehugger of some repute, so impartiality when reporting is hardly one of his fortes.
I also think the entire subject of rolling back safety standards is simply a canard.

From my own experience the safety culture in the oil industry is virtually identical worldwide. Much of the present safety regime stems directly from the UK Piper Alpha disaster and resulting public enquiry. I would suggest that winding back safety legislation is far more difficult than introducing it. Do you seriously believe safety regimes in industry would be rolled back without the workers having some say in the matter?

More project fear I am afraid. Rather like producing economic forecasts dating from Dec. in order to belittle GDP of the UK relative to the EU. Better to wait until the government releases the actual figures for 4th quarter growth (due on the 11th Feb). Comparing GDP growth of countries based on actual figures becomes a silly pastime when comparing it to UK estimates dreamed up by the Bank of England. After all the Bank Of England has previous form when it comes to producing hopelessly incorrect estimates.