BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:28 PM

So we can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over brexit. There, wasn't that easy? No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws. And you can bet your life that plenty of other companies are considering their positions for the same reason.

My mum has renewed her urgings to get me to apply for Irish citizenship, for which I qualify. Must get a grip on that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:40 PM

No. We can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over the future of Diesel engined cars in the UK. My mum is now long dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:54 AM

The decision, Stanron, was influenced by the future of diesal engines and by Brexit. Just as your choice for your next holiday is influenced by location and price. Or the songs you choose are influence by lyrics and melody.

It is not a difficult concept that decisions can be influenced by many things.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:00 AM

Nigel. Just a suggestion but it does make far more sense to create a link to another post or simply refer to the date and time rather than C&P the entire thing or whole swathes of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

Hard Brexiteers say only way forward is to remove the backstop

You will remember it was asked several times during the Brady amendment debate what "alternative arrangements" were. While 'Malthouse' was mentioned, it was definitely not declared by Brady or the government to be the only viable alternative. It is certainly possible that the amendment would not have been passed had that been the only possible interpretation.

The chances of the EU agreeing to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement are virtually zero. Dress it up as you like, but this looks like determined manoeuvring to get 'no deal' to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

if scotland doesn't get her independence, providing us with somewhere more sensible and civilised to return to and you get your irish passport, steve. (sadly my irish granny was foolish enough to leave her kilkenny home to get born in liverpool. if only she had thought about me...) anyway, steve, will you do the decent thing and marry me. and then marry my wife - or the other way round. then we will go and live with our daughter who has just bought a holiday camp centre (14 rooms) in estonia for £20,000 (or 20,000 euros) and get stockpiling short range nuclear weapons and ibuprofen. or something. don't feel you have to join us there - you'll have done your bit for humanity. or insanity

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:45 AM

It's frightening how a handful of MPs who are more concerned with keeping their fortunes intact than doing what is right can manipulate the government into a situation where the majority of the country will suffer.

Politics is broke and the only way I can see to recover is a drastic shift in the way we do things. My benign dictatorship is looking better by the minute...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 05:00 AM

No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws.

Indeed! but rational discussion needs accurate reporting of facts.
Regarding the highlighting of inaccuracies as nitpicking does nothing to advance a counter argument, it merely demonstrates their meagreness

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM

Sounds better than Theresa's deal, Pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.

For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined."

Could we have a link to your source please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 11:54 AM

Er, and what about Lebanon, home of Hezbollah, then? :-) One Syrian refugee for every four Lebanese citizens? On top of half a million or so Palestinian refugees? They may not like 'em but they take 'em... Amazing how inconvenient the partial presentation of information can be, innit, bobad?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

Jesus Christ, Steve - don't wave the Palestinians in front of boobad, he'll launch into one of his regular psychotic episodes!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

Lebanon is next door, all the way from Damascus to Homs. No surprise they take many refugees from the western instigated destruction of their country. Turkey takes the most, followed by Lebanon and Jorden.
Britain comes in at number 32, Russia at 35.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse. But they have given sanctuary to 1.5 million mainly Iraqi Kurds since 1991.
Those asylum seekers reaching the UK would have already made landfall in the EU and should have had their refugee legitimacy decided where they first made landfall.

"In the European Union, however, the 2003 Dublin II regulation determines which E.U. member state is obligated to process an asylum claim; if an asylum claim is made within 12 months of arriving in the E.U., the first E.U. country in which the asylum seeker arrived is responsible for processing the claim (after that, it’s the E.U. country where the person has lived for at least five months)."

Therefore it is no surprise the number granted asylum in the UK is relatively low. I do not believe the discussion ventured into a numbers game relative to the rest of the world, so I fail to see what point you are making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM

.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse.

Lol.....Canada is slightly further from Syria than is Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.

Could we have a link to your source please?"

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:59 PM

Derstinations Syrian refugees #

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM

If we took pro rata according to population the same number of refugees as Lebanon we'd take as many Syrian refugees as people who voted remain. There, back on topic!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Nearly five hundred posts about a futile gesture so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:49 PM

How futile would a futile gesture have to be to make it so futile, it would be futile to comment?

I suppose its futile wondering about these things.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:29 AM

Tic Toc!
Not too long to wait now for brexit.
Dissent is a futile gesture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

Jeremy and rare moments of lucidity

From Guido, of courae!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

multi national capitalism pulls the strings

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.

https://unherd.com/2019/02/how-parliament-disdains-the-people/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

multi national capitalism pulls the strings

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:10 AM

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.
Not to be confused with Berk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.

Funny that Trump wanted to pull out of Nafta. It seems if you are a poorly educated worker your job may well evaporate, along with the tariffs. Just as in the EU jobs have shrunk in the west as EU grants and a lower cost base encourage relocating some manufacturing to the east.
Sadly the remainiacs think they know the cost of everything but know the value of nothing.
Globalism destroys the employment opportunities of the unskilled and especially younger workers.
Unemployment of those under 26 EU
Greece 44%
Spain 34%
Italy 32%
Croatia 24%
Cyprus 22%
Portugal 21%
France 20%
UK 11.5%
Germany5%

"Investor confidence has plummeted to a four-year low in the Eurozone, with a sixth consecutive monthly fall in the Sentix index taking it to its lowest level since November 2014. Sentix said Eurozone growth was “weaking dangerously quickly and strongly.” Meanwhile Germany’s investor morale dropped to its lowest level since August 2012 in a separate index as it teeters on the brink of recession…

Naturally Brexit is being blamed, despite the UK currently having higher investor confidence and the fastest growing European economy in the G7. It’s one thing for underperforming companies to use Brexit as an excuse for their poor results. It’s quite another for underperforming EU countries to use it as an excuse for why they’re doing worse than the UK…"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM

From Larry Elliott in the Guardian:

Britain’s pivotal services sector has posted its weakest performance since the immediate aftermath of the EU referendum amid growing signs that Brexit uncertainty has slowed the economy to stall speed.

The latest health check of a sector that accounts for almost 80% of UK output showed services companies starting to reduce staff numbers in response to a decline in new business.

Following downbeat news from the manufacturing sectors, the closely watched survey of services from the Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply and IHS Markit heightened concerns that the UK’s planned exit from the EU at the end of March would be accompanied by an economy flirting with recession.

I just love to give the brexiteers hereabouts something to scrabble about with to see if they can blame anything they can find, ANYTHING but brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM

Paul Staines, former bankrupt and convicted drink driver, or Edmund Burke, great statesman. I think I know who I would listen to on the subject of parliamentary democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Edmund Burke, great statesman?

In May 1778, Burke supported a parliamentary motion revising restrictions on Irish trade. His constituents, citizens of the great trading city of Bristol, however urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted their protestations and said: "If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong.
His electorate extracted their revenge 2 years later and he lost his seat.
It is noteworthy that he represented (corrupt)rotten boroughs for the rest of his Parliamentary career. Why was that I wonder?

A lesson some modern MPs would do well to heed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM

We still have our own "St Valentine's Day" to get through. It is incredibly hard to predict what will still be standing by the end of it. We may have whittled the options down to one. Or none. Or they could all still be around.

Or, perhaps, for some on each side -

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM

You have to ask if some people read the quotes they are about to post.

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

We could do with some more like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

and come election time his constituents ensured his ass was grass! and they mowed it most thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM

There is a certain inconsistency in the posting by remainiacs here.
On the one hand they argue an MP should vote (as instructed by the whips)as guided by his superior knowledge(Does anyone, other than a lefty, really believe such nonsense?) and on the other hand encourage them to lie through their teeth and deliberately deceive their electorate in order to be elected. They then try to explain away the deliberate lying by calling it real politik.

A reminder:MPs backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
Shortly after there was an election with both main parties supporting brexit.
The subsequent beviour of remainiac MPs suggests they will lie cheat and steal from their grannies in order to be re elected, and see no harm in betraying their electorate in many constituencies.

The next election will be a grand settling of scores and probably remap British politics for a considerable period of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM

They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM

"They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate."
As jefferson wrote:(roughly) These truths are self evident!

The link below elaborates a little.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/02/principles-for-reselections-and-deselections.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

At the very least, the MP is charged with looking after not only the interests of his or her constituents, but also those who are too young to vote and the interests of future generations to come. It is very common for the short term desires and the long term interests to differ. To that extent at least, the MP is duty bound to go against what some current voters might wish in the wider interests of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM

The transaction between an MP and his or her constituents is very simple. The MP is not obliged to cowtow to the wishes of the constituents. The constituents are not obliged to re-elect that MP. Every MP has thousands of constituents who would far rather have someone else "representing" them. And in no way can constituents regard their MP as their delegate. Naturally, it would be an outrage if an elected member serially disregarded their party's manifesto, but that's fine because the constituents have the remedy which won't be long in coming. Both major parties overwhelmingly voted for the referendum and for Article 50. Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion. As now, hundreds of MPs ignored the best interests of the country. That was a dereliction of duty and a kick in the bollocks for democracy. The undemocratic referendum campaign was the icing on the cake. In terms of knock-on effects, this is going to go down as one of the worst periods in history, and not just for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM

You are right on what the relationship is, Steve, and that is very much Burke's stance. What I was trying to do was give a reason WHY that is the relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM

Absolutely correct Steve. For the feeble-minded amongst us who have the mistaken idea that MPs must do their constituents bidding (which would, of course, be impossible in most instances, because the MP has no way of knowing what his constituents' wishes on the vast majority of issues are) it's all explained in this piece

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM

Britain’s latest horror in Ireland: they’re talking about burying their nuclear waste in Northern Ireland.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/02/05/radioactive/

Surely Downings Street would be better?

Seriously, if they want to revive the IRA, what better plan?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion

Let us reword this in simple terms that all can understand. Many MPs put political survival and self interest top of the list when it came to voting for article 50 and during electioneering for the recent election. TO merely say they were gutless seriously understates the severity of the problem.
Having secured their sinecures by lies and a distinct lack of integrity and honour, they now are hellbent on betraying the mandate instructed by the recent referendum. Both parties put out their stands on the basis of honouring the result. Their behaviour now shows their true colours. It is a sad sad day when the Beast of Bolsover is the only MP in the house to publicly display his consistency and integrity. Many Mps have shown themselvesto be grubby little people. This will not be forgotten.
There are many quotes concerning Burke but it is as well to remember real politik. After betraying his Bristol electorate his subsequent parliamentary career was to represent Malton, another pocket borough under the Marquess of Rockingham's patronage. His latter parliamentary catreer was never legitimised by a proper election.
As has been pointed out many times both parties vowed to honour the referendum result. To betray the outcome betrays democracy and takes us into uncharted waters. No amount of petty nitpicking by remainers can alter this. Politicians rule over us with our consent.

If that consent is withdrawn whither next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

Those who backed Brexit with no plan deserve "special place in hell'


That doesn't sound as if May can expect much movement on Thursday to me once I anticipate it might be overlooked, it is the absence of a plan that merits the special place, not Brexit as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM

As Guido eloquently states:
This kind of arrogant derision from EU elites is exactly why we voted to leave in the first place…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

I repeat: his comment is against those who pushed Brexit without a plan. Not those who pushed Brexit in itself.

Do you think it was a good idea to push without a plan? If you think a plan was important, outrage that somebody said so is a bit confected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

A plan has to be there before negotiation. We are now at the end, or near the end, of two years of negotiation. The EU complains about Mrs May's red lines, yet now bandies accusations about no plans. At least one of these complaints must be unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Not so, Stanron. The red lines set out what you are not prepared to change in any final agreement, but not what the goal is.

A plan is how to achieve that unstated goal.

A plan should be there before you begin a negotiation, but it was not. That is why Tusk referred to a special place in hell for them.


There is no inconsistency.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM

The red lines indicate that there was a plan. In a negotiation plan details get altered as part of the two way process. If either side got all of their initial plan through without any change then there can not have been any negotiation.

Tusk is merely having an ill tempered whinge. Maybe he knows something is waiting in the wings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Red lines saying you don't want are no sort of a plan, sorry.

Someone referred me to a nice cartoon a while back. I don't think it was on Mudcat, but apologies if it was. It concerned two MPs trying to order lunch in a restaurant. "Neither of us want the soup, I definitely don't want the salmon and he won't have the pate."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM

Burke, by the way, was Irish - a Dubliner educated (in other words permanently resident during most of his childhood) in the Quaker school at Ballitore in Co Kildare; his study still exists there, unchanged and unknown to anyone except the two elderly bachelor brothers who own the house in front of the one where it's concealed.