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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM
Raggytash 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM
Raggytash 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM
Donuel 01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 02:44 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 03:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 03:14 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 03:19 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 07:18 AM
DMcG 02 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM
peteaberdeen 02 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM
Backwoodsman 02 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM
Raggytash 02 Feb 19 - 02:34 PM
DMcG 02 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM
Iains 02 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM
DMcG 02 Feb 19 - 05:09 PM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 09:32 AM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM
Iains 03 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM
Nigel Parsons 03 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM
DMcG 03 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on


Sorry, that still makes FA sense. Nor does it give me any clue about something you have asked me to which I have not responded.

If you are unable to actually ask a question, and direct it to me, do not be surprised if I do not answer it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.


No, the EU could pass laws without our approval. With the exception of certain items on which we retained a 'veto', the passing of laws was by a majority vote (or, sometimes a 'qualified majority' vote).
We did not (and, currently, do not) have control of our borders. We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders. We can only check that they are actually EU members. We even allowed this immediately for certain 'accession' states (where other states delayed the acceptance of these persons).

Clearly your question is based on a misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval

Must be an aborigine in the dreamtime!

Since 1996, the UK had failed to block a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming EU law.

The UK had opposed 72 measures which went onto the statute book.

"DO YOU remember the lively debate in the Houses of Parliament about new laws to regulate noise from lawnmowers? Do you recall your MP seeking your views about measures to oblige homeowners to have their properties assessed for energy efficiency? Or reading the Government's consultation on the design of desk lamps?
   That is because they are among hundreds of laws which have been passed in the past 20 years without any meaningful public debate in this country. They have been forced upon us by EU directives which are stitched up by the European Commission, rubberstamped by the European Parliament and then ordered to be incorporated into British law.

Now, the think tank Open Europe has totted up the cost to the UK economy of the most burdensome EU laws. It comes to a staggering £27.4billion a year


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM

Brexit has been examined mathematically and the proof has been solved
at long last by super computers and geniuses.


Brexit will continue to expand and accelerate as a phenomenon and a problem!


It is due to negative pressure, not positive pressure, as Dark Matters do


For Mathematicians - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYSWAlAewc

btw
The USA was very fortunate that Albert Einstein exited Germany. It led to total victory over the Axis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time


As predictable as you destroying threads on a regular basis by introducing your pet hobbyhorses that have zilch to do with the thread.

If you wish to dive off at a tangent why not discuss daisies. At least that is a subject you may have some slight knowledge of, unlike most of what you pontificate on..

For example:
"refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis. This has jackshit to do with brexit." Fact:The world's top five major arms exporters are the United States, Russia, Germany, France and China. Together, they account for 74 percent of the total volume of exports. Talking about Britain in such a context merely displays your rabid anglophobia(again!)
If you want to babble on about it open your own thread, and then you can talk to yourself

I do not talk down to you. It would be a waste of my valuable time. I talk over you, I find it more productive. Conversations with cabbages are somewhat sterile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM

Nigel, you are simply trying to perpetuate the myth that unelected EU commissioners force laws on us. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most EU laws and regulations are passed by common consensus among the 28 states and they are generally good laws that no-one would wish to quarrel with. In the event of disagreement, votes in the European Parliament may be held, and there are various levels of veto available, particularly for larger and more influential states such as the UK. Very few laws have got through without UK agreement, approximately three percent in the last twenty years, and you would be very hard-pressed to tell me about any of real game-changing significance. In a club of 28 that is very good going. And UK domestic law is our business and ours alone, as with all other EU states. I've said all this so many times on this forum and all of it is checkable, but do feel free to stick to your leavers' catechism of received wisdom.

When we leave the EU and have to rely more on deals with the US and China, just watch how we will have to accept different standards, usually lower, without a say in the matter. What price sovereignty and taking control then, Nigel, especially when you consider that we'll also be taking rules from the EU with no say there either?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM

It's no good presenting facts, Steve. I have already posted the truth about so called free movement within the EU and that was ignored. Maybe you will do better with the facts about the passing of laws but I seriously doubt it.

Never mind, eh. There are some advantages to leaving the UK government unfettered by EU human rights legislation and going back to the good old days of empire. We can start to shit on all our neighbours again ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM

We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders.

Seeing as you obviously missed it in the link I posted, here are the relevant facts.

These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.
First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.
Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]
Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]


Got it? It really is simple. We control our own borders already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Thing is, Dave, for many years, migration from non-EU countries has exceeded migration from the EU yet there has been little fuss about it, little attempt to curb it nor any attempt to make it a political issue. Migration from the EU, which has always been extremely beneficial to this country and which almost never involves immigrants claiming benefits (the opposite, in fact, as most EU immigrants make a net contribution in terms of paying their taxes), has become talismanic for leavers. It's dishonest, disreputable and utterly unfair to those thousands of EU citizens who make a genuine contribution to this country, unlike some of those Tory off-shorers, non-doms and general corporate parasites who are about to cash in on brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

You're casting pearls before swine, chaps. Don't waste the time and effort, the truth will become abundantly and horribly clear when May has driven us over the cliff-edge. Although, of course, you'll never get the Leave-voters to admit they fell for the BrexShit-Bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

Actually in some ways going back to "the good old days of empire" could have what would be seen by its enthusiasts as highly unfortunate. In those days there were no legal controls on unlimited freedom of entry into the United Kingdom on the part of the entire population of all parts of that empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:44 AM

True, Kevin, but at least we could view the immigrants from Empire nations as lesser human beings ;-)

John. Nail on the head. They will never admit it and that is only human nature. It is very difficult to admit that you have been conned as some seem to think it indicates that they have been foolish. I can assure all you brexiteers out there who are now realising that you were indeed conned that there is no shame in it. You were conned by the best, who have had years of practice at leading the public up the garden path and had the weight of the popular press behind them. Let it go now. Admit that there is a problem. It is the first step to recovery :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:06 AM

From the BBC - an indication of where we're headed when those wonderful post-BrexShit trade deals we've been promised begin to materialise. God help us!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119?SThisFB


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:14 AM

Yea but weer taking are cuntry back...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:19 AM

LOL! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

😂 😂 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

Oh Dear! here we go again, more of little jimmies lies.
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain),

This is the at least the fifth time you have raised this pack of lies.
For the second time now you have qualified it by "possibly"
Teribus refuted your claims most admirably a long while back. Why keep raising it over and over and over again? Your anglophobia is getting rather boring.
Why not try posting facts? you may find it a novel experience. It would certainly be unique!
Your views on Arab Spring are naive to say the least. Try looking at it in the following context:False Flag

IT is time you woke up as to how the real world works. It is not a pretty chocolate box scene.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM

See my point fellers
His mentor, Teribus went though all the excuses - a lie, the licence was drawn up but never issued, it was rescinded, the order was far too early to have been used by the snipers, the bullets were the wrong size for use by the Syrian Army..... and several more.
His companion at the time in response to the fact that Britain was licensing such exports , ""all you can come up with is a few sniper rifles" - (his mistake)
The order for this ammunition is still on line yet these people continue to deny it   

Statement by Government Trade minister at the time
"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that"."
HORSES MOUTH CONFESSION

Keep out of this Iains - it's for the adults
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

Bloody Nora, Jim, IGNORE HIM! Cut him dead!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

I am Steve
I just used his crassness as an opportunity to underline my point about Britain being implicated in the refugee crisis up to their sordid arses (just as I am using your posting now)
I was brought up with the philosophy that "if a point's woth making, it's worth making as often as possible"
Done and dusted, I think but thanks for the reminder
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM

If he rattles on in his usual manner but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him. But not if we succumb to temptation and respond. That's been proven to be bloody useless in any case for a long time now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 07:18 AM

Any reaction will have him creaming his pants so just don't do it, Jim. Even talking about him rather than to him is fanning his flames so this is my last self defeating post. Complete blank is the only way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM

Meanwhile, quite number of Brexiteers are admitting the possibilities of an extension, most recently Rees-Mogg. At the moment they are saying it is only for sorting out stuff after a deal is agreed, but that looks like a start of movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

The knock -on effect of the Brexiteer's use of populism is getting a little panic-making
First this fiasco, then the election of Trump (and a threatened conflict with North Korea), then the rise of neo-Nazism in Europe, Ireland could have gotten a racist President had not good sense and humanity prevailed....
Now we have the possible reopening of the Arms Race with Russia
I do hope they've forgotten to wind up the nuclear clock!!

" but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him."
I very much doubt it Steve
He is now using threads as a soap-box for his ideas (sic) and while he can he doesn't need us.
I ignore him because he says nothing I want to respond to but that shouldn't stop me (or anybody) using him to underline the crassness of Brexit
Will keep it down to minimum (off for a few days tomorrow - maybe by the time I return he will fall victim to Betjeman's "friendly bombs" along with Slough
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM

"Yea but weer taking are cuntry back..."

Good to see the remainiacs display their erudition and good taste.
Perhaps they should be named collectively as coprolaliacs, or better still banned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

there are so many hundreds of posts on the 3 threads that urge us to look away from the forest (or consider a few trees in a couple of other irrelevant forests) and examine tiny details on the trees within it. it can be vaguely interesting to be sidetracked this way but then you stand back and look at the big, scary, pointless thing as a whole - and think.......them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM

.them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!

There is many a slip twixt tongue and lip, and as yet, no arias from the fat lady! Alas alack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Just announced that Nissan are to pull Production of the new X-Trail SUV from their Sunderland plant, despite assurances given to them by the government in 2016 (source: BBC News).

Clearly, Nissan havevrealised that 'assurances' from May and her bunch of incompetents are worth Sweet FA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM

I feel awful for saying it but the fact that Sunderland voted firmly for brexit seems to have a certain element of karma...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:34 PM

Some of us have been warning of such things for the past two and a half years.

I take absolutely no pleasure in saying I told you so.

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

I strongly suspect that this is the shape of things to come.

I wonder if our Brexiteers can cast a good spin of this ..........

....... but I doubt it, they tend not to respond to direct news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

The history of these threads is that they will say firms expand and contract all the time so there is no evidence it has anything to do with Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM

2018/10/30

St. Petersburg, Russia — Nissan has started production of the new X-Trail crossover SUV at its St. Petersburg plant.

The X-Trail is Nissan's best-selling model worldwide and the key upgrades are a more contemporary exterior design, upgraded suspension, greater cabin refinement and additional innovative new Nissan Intelligent Mobility technologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

More project fear. There are no publicised plans to either cease production of existing models, or layoff workers.

Be nice if you did a bit of fact checking first. But that would not leave you too much to discuss, would it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:09 PM

I am reminded of the "Yes Minister" script which describes the four stage strategy followed by the Foreign Office: First, "Nothing's going to happen"; Second, "Something may be going to happen, but we should do nothing about it"; Third, "Maybe we should do something, but there's nothing we can do"; and Fourth, "Maybe there was something we could've done, but it's too late now".

It seems that applies to things like the Sunderland reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM

Meanwhile back to the real world, not the imaginary one dreamed up by the kidergarten remainiac cabal here.

From the Torygraph and you gov:
Jeremy Corbyn’s popularity is at an all-time low because voters believe he is “playing politics” with Brexit and can not be trusted.

The Labour leader’s approval rating, which reached its peak in mid-2017 after the general election, has been on the slide ever since, hit by his failure to set out a clear policy on Brexit, and by the anti-Semitism controversy which has dogged his party for years.

A poll by YouGov found that voters who had changed their minds about Mr Corbyn described him as weak, indecisive and out of touch.

Not what even the most deluded here would call a ringing endorsement!
It seems Joe Public is on the money, razor sharp, and staunchly Brexit.
Fine fellows all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM

Good comment by Andrew Rawnsley following Oliver Letwin's speech in the house last week (in the event of problems after Brexit)

The Conservatives will own a nightmare Brexit and it will not just be Remain voters who will take their revenge on the Tory party. It will also be Leave voters. If Brexit goes horribly wrong, Leave voters are not going to find fault with themselves for being suckered by a bogus prospectus, unrealisable promises and a red bus emblazoned with a lie. Leave voters are going to blame the Tories for betraying them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

Nice cartoon in the Sunday Times today shows Tess the Tosser signing for a delivery of a dozen crates of champagne and telling the delivery man - "no, I'm definitely not stockpiling - they're to celebrate when we win"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM

Seems the Sunday times shows more contact with reality than the remainiacs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:32 AM

Nissan has confirmed it is abandoning plans to build a new model of one of its flagship vehicles at its Sunderland plant, as it warned that uncertainty over Brexit is affecting businesses."

Looks like those posting before were in the real world after all

Now for "Yes Minister" stage 3 or 4, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM

(Nissan)It acknowledged in a letter to workers: “Today’s announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.” the X-Trail is produced in Japan currently and Nissan said keeping production there would reduce “upfront investment costs”.

“Nissan’s announcement is a blow to the sector and the region, as this was to be a further significant expansion of the site and the workforce.The company has confirmed that no jobs will be lost,

Calling the decision “very disappointing news” for Sunderland and the north-east”, the Unite union said it blamed Brexit uncertainty for the decision, along with the government’s “mishandling” of the transition away from diesel.


Nissan said plans over other future models destined for the Sunderland plant – the next-generation Juke and Qashqai – were unaffected by the announcement.

Someone (remainiacs) cannot read or are doing a gyroscopic spin of epic proportions and reporting false News.

Awkward things facts!!

It is the union attributing the decision to brexit, and what does a union know about the investment plans of a Nissan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM

Iains: you know I am one of the few people still prepared to talk to you on this this thread but, like Keith (RIP) in times past, you make it difficult. Nissan said:

"The continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”

If you do not think there is any connection between Brexit and our future relationship with the EU, I wonder what you do think.

The final paragraph or so was nothing but invective.

I said quite plainly earlier that I do not like to ignore people, but if it comes to it I will. Kindly stick to the facts as you see them and drop the insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman, said that the decision had been taken for "business reasons" affected by rules on diesel engines and reduced sales.

The announcement that the X-Trail would be built in Japan was made in a letter to staff that followed a day of political rows between Brexit supporters and opponents over the reason for one of Wearside's largest employers reneging on a 2016 decision to build the car there.

In the letter Mr de Ficchy said: "Today's announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.

"We have taken this decision for the business reasons I've explained but, clearly, the uncertainty around the UK's future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future."


I prefer the stated reasons given by Nissan's Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman.
obviously brexit creates uncertainty but he gives 3 clear reasons for retaining manufacture elsewhere,
1)The investment required would be considerable.
2)Actual and impending legislation on diesel engines
3)Delining sales

It is newspapers and the union attributing the sole reason to brexit.
I prefer to believe the information given first hand by the company that made the decision.

The Herald six hours ago using my same data comes out with the following headline:
Nissan chief attacks 'Brexit uncertainty' as company confirms new vehicle will be built in Japan not UK.

If that headline has not been spun to the point of being outright lies then tell me what I have misunderstood.

You must point what you mean by invective.(insulting, abusive, or highly critical language.)
I will accept highly critical, but I would regard that as a compliment given for well researched responses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM

From the Sky news site. Not noted for any remain bias.

Gianluca de Ficchy said the decision was a mixture of investment needed for emissions regulations and reduced sales forecasts but added uncertainty over Brexit had also played a part.

Repeated verbatim with no need for further comment.

The article also states

Nissan has told staff in Sunderland the company will not make the new X-Trail there, as previously planned.

The production was previously planned for Sunderland and it no longer is. The European division chief states quite clearly that brexit "played a part" in the decision to move production. Brexit has played a part in loosing work in Sunderland. QED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll


Another long, and confusing diatribe. But I do seem to recognise a question hidden away in there: "Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?"
Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.
If refugees seek asylum in the UK, and it is their first port of call, we should accept them.
For all other possibilities, look at the UNHCR of 1951 and 1967


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

Neither I, not anyone in this thread, nor any newspaper article I have read suggested Brexit was the *sole* reason for the Nissan decision. Creating false arguments to demolish is not very respectable.

As to what was an insult in your post: I credit you withenough intelligence to work it out for yourself.


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