BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:01 AM

The closure of the thread feels like collective punishment. Latterly, most of us have been stridently trying to resist the inanities of the one idiot who has been messing up the thread by sidelining him. Contrary to what the closer of the thread seemed to be claiming, discussion of this topic has far from run its course and things are set to move on dramatically quickly in the next few weeks. It's actually history in the making, no exaggeration, and we should be able to talk about it. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:10 AM

In fairness, most of us have played some part in closing it - some more than others
This will continue to happen until we start to police ourselves and control our own behaviour as well as dealing with the real gluggers

I read this morning that forty-plus Tory MPs have threatened to resign if they (the House of Common members) aren't given the final say on Brexit
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:11 AM

Jim, we have been trying to police ourselves in recent days. We can stop him if we try.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"We can stop him if we try."
Can we not make this about him please
While we respond to him we become part of it, as a mod has just pointed out to me - now the Mods have been made fully aware of hat e is, he can't continue as he has for much longer anyway
Ignore him - all of us, if we want this thread (and BS section) to survive

Onward and upward to Brexit - or hopefully to kicking it into touch
I don't agree with you about referendums Steve - they've changed Irish Society for the better and there's no reason they can't do the same for Britain if they are presented properly and not used as Populist maneuvering   
It seems to me that the only answer to the present fiasco is to put the vote to the people again - now the clownish behaviour of the establishment and the revelations as to what leaving Europe will bring will at last give the electorate some idea of what they are voting for rather than the unfulfillable promises that brought about this mess in the first place
It has to be done by open debate, not within the Parliamentary greenhouse - I'd love to see Posh-Boy Moggie face to face with the articulate debater Corbyn seems to be becoming - I know who my money would be on
If, after all this, a majority ('bout time PR was considered for eections) still want to leave there's not much you can do about it
I have little doubt the people will sort it out anyway when things do go radically wrong - with a great deal of added hardship to the have-nots who have to pick up the tab, of course

Parliamentary debate has become little more than meaningless words shouted over a constant noise from a herd of bleating sheep
Let's see the the thing thrashed out openly by articulate people and for Christ's sake, let someone point out the inhumanity of using refugees from wars and poverty Britain has helped and even facilitated, as political pawns
It's about time Britain's situation in all this was dealt with holistically rather than a series of separate issues
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:07 AM

Good news about brexit

On balance I think there is more bad than good but in the interests of fairness I think this piece should be included. Even if it is by the co-editor of "The Conservative Woman" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:11 AM

Like Steve, I've been against another referendum (I dislike referendums as a matter of principle - they seem to me to be a cowardly cop-out by the very people we have elected to very well-paid positions of responsibility for making these decisions on our behalf. As the saying goes, you don't keep a dog and bark yourself.

But I'm coming round to thinking that, with May's intransigence, the government's paralysis, and the unwillingness of many MPs to do what they know in their hearts is best for the country as a whole, a 'second referendum' is probably the best route to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:17 AM

She's deluded.

Nothing to either agree or disagree with me about, Jim. Whilst I am opposed to referendums, because they dress up complex issues as simple binary decisions to be put before an uninformed public, I've said more than once that there may be no other way out of this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:29 AM

Parliament are never going to decide anything seriously without putting their own self-interests first, as partied, as individual investors (as many of them are, and as career politicians) - they never have and certainly aren't likely to now
They need to be made answerable to their responsibilities and their promises - until they are, the people need a voice in what happens to their lives and their communities
Five years of promises that will not be honoured is as far from democracy as is Parliamentary dictatorship
On issues of national importance I can't see any alternative other than referenda
Sorry - 'Mary Queen of Scots' calls - see y'all tomorrow
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:25 AM

I am sorry, but for me Jim's conduct has had as much to do with wrecking the thread as anybody else's. If, and I say if, he is feeling proud of having done this, or feels that he has achieved some kind of victory, then I would just like to register a feeling that he is mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:39 AM

Karen, we are actually trying very hard right now to sideline the real villain of the piece. Jim is now onside. If we ignore troll posts and talk about brexit, we may just manage to keep the topic alive. What's done is done. There is genuinely something important to talk about here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM

Karen, I think Jim will be the first to admit that his behaviour has left much to be desired at times. I also think that several of us are working to help Jim refrain from being reactive to the disgraceful provocation - the bile and vitriol, the name-calling, the deliberate attempts (often unfortunately successful) to 'press buttons', aimed at him and, to possibly a lesser extent, to others here - by his Nemesis.

I know that Jim is trying hard to improve his behaviour, as are the others I referred to, by refusing to react or respond to provocation - the only one who, as yet, seems unable to acknowledge his own part in all the trouble on the 'Brexit #2' thread is the aforementioned provocateur, whose single contribution to this thread so far is in precisely the same provocative vein as the vast majority of his posts on the closed thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM

Then let this be about the associated Brexit conundrums instead of searching for the one true villain amoung many.
Brexit has its own HBO movie staring Kumberbatch. Too bad the script writer didn't consult with you folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 08:59 AM

To get back on track!
'Stop reporting fake news!' BBC forced to apologise for 'editing' Brexiteer Newsnight clip

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1075950/Brexit-news-BBC-Newsnight-UK-Nadine-Dorries-Conservative-Party-latest

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM

Will this government ever do what is right for the country if they know that in doing so it will divide their support at the ballot box?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM

No they won't. The long, sorry history of Toryism in this country is to prioritise looking after their own (the wealthy, the landowners, the landlords, the tycoons and the fast-buck spivs) and to look after the interests of the Tory party. If they change from that, they won't be Tories any more. Unfortunately, at the moment it's hard to see an effective alternative that would be any different. We just have to keep fighting from within, that's all. The first step is to make sure that Corbyn realises that he's wrong to support brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:43 AM

They walk among us!

Fresh from telling his constituents that he knows better than them, Labour’s Ipswich MP Sandy Martin has claimed in his ‘weekly column’ that the Prime Minister had met with Corbyn to discuss Brexit options. A meeting she offered but the Labour leader famously refused to accept…


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/know-better-labour-mp-now-lies-constituents/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:58 AM

From The Department Of The Bleedin' Obvious: the EU has confirmed what we knew all along but what the leavers shoved under the carpet: a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. Of course it would. We can't expect to be made a special case. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM

That part of the game...

These nasty Europeans will do what they're told because we are British and if they don't, they are bullying us...

Anyway, these threads go nowhere but I couldn't resist one comment on a third restart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM

Steve, when the thread gets really long a couple of things happen - people veer all over the place topic-wise and it's difficult to moderate those few fighting, spam, or non sequitur posts that need to go. From this side of the pond it sounds like the Brexit conversation has entered another (perhaps even more precarious) stage, and it seemed a good time to start again. Any of you who want to review the 2,815 posts of the Brexit #2 thread are more than welcome to look back. I suspect that unless someone is mining it for old links they posted, it the conversation will simply move on from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM

The British government’s insistence on upholding the result of the democratically-convened 2016 Brexit referendum is quite understandable .A quandary arises however because the outcomes of the democratically-held referendums in both the north and south of Ireland backed terms reached in the Good Friday Agreement negotiations that require “avoidance” of a physical border on the island of Ireland.

It’s hard to explain Irish history to British people who don’t want to be constantly reminded about Ireland and their country’s own involvement in Ireland’s history. Some in the UK -and indeed some in Poland whose citizens in the UK feel put at risk by Brexit - think that the Irish are being stubborn at the moment and that the GFA –an international agreement - should be set aside or its wording modified or reinterpreted in order to facilitate Theresa May’s Brexit negotiations .

Britain has said that it will not erect a hard border in Ireland : the EU said this morning that it will build a hard border in the event of a no deal being reached. That‘s the dilemma that Brexit has put EU member Ireland in : if Ireland remains in the EU and no deal has been reached , will it be party to breaking the border-avoidance clause in the Good Friday Agreement ? The GFA was worded using the language of “constructive ambiguity” so as to get most parties on side with the deal -the DUP never supported it . All parties will now be looking for nuances in meaning for the word “avoid” perhaps. But it will be difficult for any Irish government to sign up to a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:03 AM

There is no NEED for any kind of border between the EU and the UK. All our laws and all our regulations and all our tariffs are 100% aligned and identical. The need for a border is an invention of the EU and the reason for this invention is good subject for speculation.

Speculation 1. Based on the fear that other members may be tempted to follow suit and leave, the EU wants to be seen to be punitive towards leavers.

Speculation 2. The EU knows that a significant number, although not majority, of UK citizens do not want to leave. This large minority (actually a majority of MPs) will do their best to prevent Brexit even to the point of damaging the UK. The EU therefor gives as little as possible and asks as much as possible knowing that remainers will attempt to sabotage a successful exit. An example is the remainers insistance that 'No Deal' is taken off the table. No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK. It should be a really good bargaining tool. The remainers do not want us to have such a good bargaining tool. Also of course 'No Deal' actually means leaving. Every bit of any deal we do will tie us to the EU. The softer the Brexit the greater and tighter the ties will be. No deal means we leave and the remainers have lost completely. Bring it on.

Speculation 3. The EU is a psychotic and nonredeemable political experiment that puts an inflexible ideology before the best interests of it's member states and their populations. They would do this wouldn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:11 AM

It is possible there WOULD be no need if all our regulations etc were the same for all time. But as our declared intention is to change these, a border or some other scheme will be required to inspect matters arising these differences as soon as they arise. Merely being the same at the moment is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:19 AM

So Speculation 4 is fear of the future? That's not very healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:31 AM

That speculation is possibly right Stanton , the EU was actually very shakey before the UK referendum . Leading Brexiteers knew that and wanted to get out first - steal a march on other member states .EU leaders know that Brexit can only work for the Brexiteers at the expense of other powerful EU countries.If the wrecking operation involved in the EU’s most powerful country quitting the bloc is successful then Britain will come out dominant .So the EU leaders are taking steps to prevent a no-deal situation and keep the UK tied to the bloc. Can you blame them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM

Another perspective on the Border question:


https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-northern-ireland-backstop-theresa-may-how-brussels-blew-brexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM

Speculation 5. The drivers for leaving would love to see a breakdown of the EU so that individual states can aggressively compete with each other; without realising that if that happened the UK would soon find out that, quite rightly, the UK population would be trodden into the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:53 AM

the EU has confirmed a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.

"So this hard border.
Are they going to install watch towers with searchlights and machine guns and have barbed wire fences with minefields.
And what is the purpose? To keep people out or keep people in?
Smacks of creeping totalitarianism on the part of the beleaguered Brussels apparatchiks to me."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM

It's hard to explain Irish history to some people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM

No, Stanron, it is not fear of the future. You need a border of some form to accomodate a difference. That is as true in politics as it is in physics, chemistry and biology, or in social structures like entrance exams. Borders are associated with difference: no difference, no border. A difference, some sort of border. Fear does not come into in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:41 PM

Stanron says, still, despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary:

"No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK"

And extraordinary statement, which can only be made by someone really quite deluded.

A no deal brexit will reduce UK GDP by of order 10%, and EU GDP by 2-3%.
For the EU its a hiccup. For the UK a catastrophe. The 2008 recession was 6-7% reduction. Only the depression of the 1920s was worse.

So thats what Stanron wishes to "bring on". Economic conditions not quite as bad as the Great Depression. But significantly worse than any we have experienced in our lifetimes (apologies for any one reading who remembers the 1920s).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 01:09 PM

despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary.
Evidence? Where is this muythical beastie?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 01:38 PM

Rupert Murdoch was once asked why he hated the EU so much. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied.’When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’.
Jim, by using sky box you are financially contributing to rupert murdoch and brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:11 PM

We heard you first time, Dick. Thing is, if you made a crusade out of boycotting any company or organisation that supports brexit, or has directors or CEOs who support brexit, well frankly you wouldn't be able to live your life. Anyway, Dick, I pay five quid a month for Sky Sports Mobile so that I can watch Liverpool in the Premier League and I'm buggered if I'm giving it up. I'd sooner hack off my meat and two veg with a rusty machete, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:29 PM

A couple of things. First, the EU contains nearly half a billion people, about seven or eight times our population, so it's arrant nonsense to suggest that the EU will somehow come off worse. Second, the EU is not blocking anything. We started this and the EU has to stick to its own rules. It's actually playing a very straight bat. We are the bad boy who can't expect special treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM

No deal could cause a spike in adultery!!!!

From guido! It must be right.


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/project-fling-no-deal-cause-35-spike-adultery/#disqus_thread

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

The road to hell is paved with good? intentions.
The european dream is having a few hiccups.


https://www.rt.com/news/449388-macron-king-executives-execute-reforms/

Note what happened 226 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:24 PM

NO STEVE I disagree if i owned a television which i used to i made a conscious decision not to support sky or murdoch. i run a festival www.maritime.com i discovered when i paid my radio advertising bill that county sound was now opwned by rupert murdoch so i will not advertisec with them again, that is about having principles. Steve and jim you bang on about brexit but you have no right to because you are financially supporting murdoch, Steve, its more important to you to watch a football match shown by sky than to not give money to murdoch , absolutely pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM

Brexit solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM

Another thread killer Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:06 PM

I told you, Dick, you can't run your life that way. I buy stuff from Asda, Amazon, Morrisons, Lidl, Aldi, M&S, Vodafone, BT, Apple, Microsoft, Coopers of Stortford, Specsavers, Tesco, eBay, Ford, Mazda, CPL, Mole Valley Farmers, NFU, Rangemoors at Winkleigh, Waitrose, John Lewis, Costa, Caffé Nero, Lakeland, Woolacotts, Spar, the Esso garage in Bude, Sainsbury's, Trago Mills, Donald Russell, Gloucester Services, the local butcher and the local fishmonger. Within many of those emporia I buy stuff made by Heinz, Colmans, Hellmans, the local dairy, Napolina, Roddas, Trewithen, Kraft, Cadburys, Nestlé, Weetabix, Kellogg's, Yeo Valley, Fairy, Kenwood, Delonghi, Duracell, Energiser, Rowntree, Green and Blacks, Davidstow creamery, Canon, Panasonic, Philips. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I'm not about to delve into the gargantuan task of finding out what all their brexit stances are or who's running all their shows who might be brexiteers. You can if you want to. I decided that I have to breathe at least some polluted air.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:31 PM

I will not support Murdoch, a man who played a major part in encouraging brexit and a man who played a part inn organised violence at Wapping, and you support him just so that you can watch football pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:48 PM

Bye, Dick!

Just a feeling I'm getting, but it looks like the impetus for a people's vote is subsiding a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:13 PM

Whilst I can agree with your sentiment Dick, I do not have the time to trawl through the accounts of every company I have to deal with.

I do not have a Sky package so I go to the pub to watch most sport. (I do have freesat)

Are you suggesting that I should not go the the pub because the pub pays for a Sky package?

As Steve has already suggested most major companys we have to purchase from (there being little, if any alternative) probably have some very dubious practises.

Short of sitting in the kitchen, in the dark and scratching my arse I have little alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:58 PM

Wonderful.

James Dyson who has consistently supported Brexit has now announced he is moving the HQ of the company to Singapore.

P&O Ferries are to re-register all their ships to a Cypriot flag, Sony is moving it's European HQ to Amsterdam, away from London.

I feel sure that more and more companies will leave the sinking ship in the next few weeks.

Isn't Brexit ******* marvellous !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:14 AM

So does the exit agreement include powers to charge corporation tax to Singapore and Netherlands registered companies?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM

I think that I’ll vote for Brexit
Though none of my posh friends expects it
I am fairly sure-oh
I’m not at all Euro
But then again Life’s what you meks it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 AM

A glimpse of sanity!



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/--899440.html

Bobad. Love your cartoon! but I cannot entirely agree with the sentiment expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:17 AM

We need to keep the impetus going then Steve. No deal brexit cannot be allowed to happen, by keeping it on the table May is holding a gun to the head of the British economy. And the British people. George Osbourne was right about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:20 AM

Far-right groups could exploit Brexit tensions

Why does this not surprise me one bit? It was interesting to note the following statement that some on here have been denying.

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC: "We saw a spike in hate crime after the referendum, that's never really receded.

So there's always a possibility people are being radicalised by the kind of febrile atmosphere we've got at the moment."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:31 AM

Never thought I'd see the day when I agree with Gideon about anything but, on this occasion, he's absolutely right on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:50 AM

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC:

there was no intelligence pointing to an increased level of attacks after Brexit, but added: "What's most concerning me... is its potential to divide communities and set communities against each other."

But the loopy left also poses a threat!
Britain’s most dangerous export: Corbynism. From Europe's premium policy intelligence service

https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-left-uk-europe-britains-most-dangerous-export-corbynism/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 05:09 AM

Tory MP asks for help from Poland

What a twerp.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:07 AM

Just in case anyone is wondering why a leading BrexShiteer would move his business to Singapore...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:10 AM

....should have said, "A leading BrexShiteer who preaches Patriotism to the rest of us". Like charity, Patriotism should begin at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:06 AM

Here's another idea - require all people who are paid to enter national public services (ie MPs, MEPs) to publish their tax returns for all countries in which they declare income for the rest of tier lives, with a 7 figure penalty for failing to do so, doubling each year. Although this would be an imposition for the majority of MPs, MEPs, it would show who does have their nose in the trough benefiting from the disarray caused by leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

Some more spiffing news about brexit!

The Remoaners at the ‘Fair Vote Project’ have suffered a humiliating legal defeat in the High Court in their attempts to force the Government to hold a “Mueller-style inquiry” into the EU referendum. The ‘Fair Vote Project’ was essentially set up as a front group for the so-called Brexit whistleblowers with the backing of the cranks at Byline and ultra-Remainers Best for Britain – the sole director, Kyle Taylor, was previously Field Campaigns Director for Best for Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM

Arts Council factsheet on the effect of Brexit on the arts in the UK.

You're fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM

I can’t see any reason why all tax returns aren't publicly accessible, the same way the details of wills are, and the prices at which houses have been sold.
..............................

Those like Theresa May who go on endlessly blaring out about how a fresh referendum would be an affront to democracy and will cause social disruption are in fact acting in a way that must encourage such disruption, by providing justification for it. I rather think that is intentional, pulling in the threat of the mob to intimidate opponents.

Other countries which compare very favourably indeed to the UK when it comes to democratic practices, and a commitment to democratic principles have had second referendum on related issues about the E.U. In the case of Denmark and Ireland the public voted the other way next time, in the case of Norway, they confirmed their decision not to join the EU.

Nobody knows what the majority view in the UK is now. If we think that matters, a referendum at least provides a mechanism for finding that out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:43 AM

After exploring the links within links in Jack's post below...
All you folks will probably be referred to 150 different websites to stay abreast of the new rules and the conflicting rules that you will still be subject to.

Better keep your smart phones charged if you even want to travel or buy bread and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:50 AM

I'm encouraged to see the self control shown so far in this thread. It's quite easy really, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 10:58 AM

Now you've been and went and gone and done it! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

Gentlemen! gentlemen! -- and everyone else as well --

it's hugely entertaining for a USA ignoramus like me
to watch you working through all of this.

I was unaware that anyone had called some of you 'bastards.'
Not even Max, to my knowledge, called you that,
and at one point he was genuinely upset with you.

The phrase I heard from a moderator was
"sour testosterone."
Hmmm ... wonder if a UK moderator would make a difference?

Okay, I'll go back to keeping my head down, and listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM

keberoxu. Hilarious. More posts please!

Meanwhile back at the ranch:

Interesting polling by Number Cruncher Politics which asked voters to choose their least acceptable Brexit outcomes rather than just their favourites. The study reveals that remaining in the EU is the least acceptable Brexit outcome to the British electorate,

Another wily ruse is to suspend Parliament. That'll fix em!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:26 PM

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances. Please don't ask for any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM

Apparently Rees-Mogg has said it would be "a constitutional outrage" if the moves by Cooper et al end up with Parliament deciding it should block Brexit. To prevent this he raises the idea of proroguing Parliament if that outcome appears likely.

The whole rationale of Parliament is to agree on solution to problems like our current mess. If it looks likely to do so and then action is taken to shut it down to prevent it doing do - well, I know which looks a bigger constitutional outrage to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:02 PM

I'm not sure if it's different across the Atlantic, but here "bastards" isn't really particularly strong. Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

"Stronger than buggers. - but that's more or less equivalent to "bloke""
Suggest you look in your PM box Mac
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 01:55 PM

Some of us were called bastards in a private message from a moderator to one of us. Just to clear that one up. It wasn't that anyone took offence, but it did appear to betray certain arguably inappropriate allegiances.
pack it in shaw. you are gettingh boring.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM

that would be a great advertising line

Fishermans Friends....not strong as fuck! But stronger than buggers!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:13 PM

Big Al,
I shudder to think
what the Mudcat would be like, without you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:40 PM

If we were in Oz I suppose we'd have taken it as a backslapping term of endearment, as in "G'day, how's it all going, you old bastard!" Let's move on...

I note with amusement the lack of irony in May's claim that a second referendum would threaten social cohesion. Yeah, right, Treez, like the wrecking of social cohesion caused by your pointless ten years' austerity, your permanent Tory us-and-them syndrome, your million on zero-hours, your all-in-it-together lie of the century, your hostile environment, Windrush, Grenfell, your foodbanks... You ain't seen nuffink yet, Treez, things such as the loss of social cohesion that would result from millions thrown out of work by brexit or by the hard border that you're courting with by refusing to take no-deal off the table. A second referendum, in contrast to all that, would be a thoroughly democratic move. I'm not sure that I think it's the right answer to all this, but then democracy should never simply be in the hands of those who think it might turn against them. Should it, brexiteers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:57 PM

Old cricket joke.

Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM

Hey, Dave, that was no joke - it really happened! It was in the "Bodyline" Ashes series of 1932. The England captain was Douglas Jardine, the architect of the bodyline bowling strategy. In other words the biggest bastard among bastards* ever to disgrace a cricket field. He went to the Aussie dressing room to complain that one of the Aussie team had called him a bastard. Vic Richardson, the Aussie vice-captain, turned to his teammates in the room and said: "OK, which of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?"

*Unless Jacob Rees-Mogg has ever played cricket...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:30 PM

Could everyone stick to the subject of the thread please, and ignore attempts to divert attention to other topics, and provoke a reaction to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM

I saw a photo of the Queen and Theresa May today. It was obviously taken at one of the weekly audiences, and some wag had put a speech bubble above the queen's head saying, "Well, you've made a terrible mess of it all haven't you? Would you like me to get Philip to drive you home?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 PM

It was in a link in this thread, Eliza, posted by Bobad early on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:22 PM

Gah! So it was! I get more senile every day! Sorry about that Bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 05:39 PM

Just received a copy of "Wetherspoons news" in my letterbox. Packed full of stuff about how wonderful a no deal Brexit will be. The owner of Wetherspoons is really obsessed with Brexit - branching out from just plugging it in the pubs.

I've got a friend who's sworn off going to Wetherspoons, and is a bit shocked I won't. But I can't see boycotting makes much sense in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 07:50 PM

Surely the Tory definition of cohesion is everybody consenting without question to their subjugation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 08:35 PM

Since my posts are educational and everybody loves them, I'm going to repeat my post to Mudcat Brexit 2 which was the last post before shutdown:

There's a pretty good National Public Radio Program called On the Media. Saturday I heard their presentation: "Why Brexit Shouldn't Have Been a Surprise"

It was good, particularly in explaining UK business to American ears. I especially appreciated the commentary by Matthew Goodwin, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent and author of National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy. He had a strong opinion that another referendum would be a bad idea.

I'm not so sure. It might not be a good idea, but it might be the best way out of the morass if it leads to a path forward.

There's a lot of reasons Democracy ain't lookin' so hot these days, but I'll argue considerably that nothing very much looks very good these days, and Democracy is still the best thing out there, compared to all the others, the kleptocracy that is modern Russia, the abject failure of whatever Venezuela called its shoddy form of government, the poor democractic selections on the part of the voters of the Philippines, Hungary, Poland, and Turkey. The digital/capitalist oligarchy/dictatorship running China, and the religiously intolerant regimes in India and Burma(Myanmar).

For relaxation I've been reading the Wikipedia entry on The European Union and the early reading part of it is so idealistic, harking back to days when Victor Hugo in previous centry and later Winston Churchill called for a "United States of Europe". Less relaxing is the recent Brexit movie full of current day fakenews digital realpolitick (although Benedict Cumberbatch is a national treasure).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 09:10 PM

Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:46 AM

"Well in my opinion the European Union is, among major political and economic blocs, almost the last bastion of democracy on the planet. Up to a couple of years ago, I might have wanted to include the US in that, but no longer. It's true that the EU endures a democratic deficit: members of its parliament are elected by tiny turnouts, a very bad thing, and EU laws and regulations are instigated by an unelected commission. However, contrary to the claims of its critics, no law or regulation may be adopted without the consent of the 28 nations and their elected representatives, and the general ethos is that regulations are adopted by common consent rather than divisive voting, and there are various levels of veto available, especially to larger nations such as the UK. If you look at individual nations that are held up to be great examples of democracy you'll find democratic deficits just as serious. You only have to look at the behaviour of Theresa May, with her serial efforts to sideline Parliament over the last two years or more, if you want a shining example of that.

We weaken and undermine the EU, for all its shortcomings, at our peril. Its destruction would leave a world without any major democratic blocs. To put it more scarily, it would leave us with Trump's America, Putin's Russia, a lifetime dictator in China, a whole host of despotic regimes in the Middle East and the ascendancy of the far right here, there and everywhere. That isn't a world I want for myself, my kids and my grandchild, thanks."

I second all of that, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:55 AM

I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away. It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:43 AM

"I wrote a long spiel but decided I was getting carried away"
Pity - soundbites no longer sum up this catastrophe
pent some time yesterday enquiring about becoming an Irish national as the monster that is Brexit is threatening to lose us some of the privileges of living here if little England goes it alone
Some people really seem not to have got their head around the effect on other countries - never a high priority of the British establishment
We already have signs of a return to violence (from both sides)
NICELY SUMMED UP HERE
In the North and counties like Donegal are benefiting from the misfortuns of the Sic Counties - great for Donegal - not so great for relationships and peace
It seems that predictions of the break-up the UK is now becoming a reality
I've always welcomed the idea of a United Ireland, but not this way - please

"Wetherspoons"
Stopped drinking their piss when they stopped serving Travellers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:16 AM

It was one pub in North London, Jim. Tarring the whole chain because of the actions of one manager, who has now been "re-educated", is akin to, well, tarring a whole group of people with the actions of a few :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 AM

Since i was obliged to be 'on the wagon' in 2005, pubs are of zero interest to me other than as sources of nourishment and opportunities to belt a few tunes and songs out.

But when I did indulge in alcohol, there was (still is) a lovely, welcoming, and well-patronised little pub round the corner from our local Wetherspoons, which specialises in traditional ales and beers - mostly from small, independent breweries, properly kept by a skilled and knowledgeable owner, and served properly by the owner and his experienced staff. Why on earth would I want to go to a soulless chain-owned barn selling crap beer, where they need bouncers on the door to keep an eye on the hordes of young people who go there to guzzle lager and shout at one another?

And if I want food, instead of Wetherspoons' microwave shite, I go to one of several locally-owned cafés or restaurants and have real food, properly cooked and presented in nice surroundings.

As far as I'm concerned, that dick can take his crappy Wetherspoons and shove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:48 AM

"who has now been "re-educated""
Fined, you mean
It was a joke Dave - never really liked Weatherspoons anyway - the nearest to us in London was right opposite Young's Brewery - the finest in the world until progress (pronounced "PISS") drove it out of business
Sorry lads - mustn't interrupt the flow - quite an apt phrase, don'cha think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

I think with a company fine of £24,000 the manager was probably 're-educated' right out of the door :-) I

I must go in different Weatherspoons. All the ones I have been in have been fine with a good range of beer and food. But, yes, nowt to do with Brexit really so I shall leave it at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM

Dyson moving HQ to Singapore.

To put that in some kind of perspective: (from June 2016)

https://janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

"It boils to if we want to be able to regulate the multinationals, whether physical or the likes of Google, nation-states are too weak. It needs groupings like the EU to stand a chance - and not an especially good chance at that."

Excellent point, DMcG. If we allow unelected mega-companies to rule the roost (as well as unelected, powerful lobby groups) we can kiss democracy goodbye, and individual little countries, far from wanting to regulate the corporations, will bend over backwards to cut their tax liabilities to get them in. Not saying that the EU can make much of a fist of it, as you say...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:44 AM

The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it. The first duty of a company is to look after the shareholders, i.e.maximize profit. Morality,charity and national allegiance is no part of the equation. Others explain it thus:
"Contrary to widespread belief, corporate directors are generally not under any legal obligation to maximise profits for their shareholders. Where directors pursue the latter goal, it is usually a product not of legal obligation but rather of the pressures imposed on them by financial markets, activist shareholders, the threat of a hostile takeover and/or stock-based compensation schemes."

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/business-law-blog/blog/2016/11/modern-corporation-statement-company-law

I am sure it requires no explanation as to why a company may up sticks and relocate to a lower cost base, or a more amenable legislatory environment. It goes without saying that many eastern europeans welcomed the employment opportunities that came there way as a result of the above.
As I demonstrated in a previous link it is EU largesse that encouraged many relocations. To state that the poacher also becomes the gamekeeper seems a particularly bizarre socialist solution that inevitably will crash and burn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM

"Brittany Ferries have moved to slap down Remainer scaremongering about international travel beyond March, and reassure passenmgers. The iconic ferry company accused the BBC of peddling “nonsense” and reassured potential passengers that they can book beyond March.

    “The company would like to make clear that passengers can book crossings to France and Spain, and sail-and-stay holidays as normal. There is absolutely no truth in speculation that passengers are being advised not to book because all space has been allocated to freight.

    The reality is that Brittany Ferries has added 19 crossings on three of its nine routes leaving the UK. The additional sailings create more space for freight, as requested by the DfT. As a consequence, there is now more choice for passengers rather than less.”

Maybe it’s time for the BBC to start listening to the experts?"
(From Guido, of course!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM

Well the free movement of capital was largely welcomed, as I remember. It was a necessary adjunct to living in the EEC.

It must be a big temptation to rich people not pay any tax though, wouldn't you think.

I'm not really sure you will eventually sustain a stable society though, if no one invests in anything except real estate.

Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:50 AM


The only reason multinationals behave as they do is because inadequate legislation allows it.

Perhaps, but that raises the question of what is inadequate and why is it inadequate. From a business point of view, a law is not so much a question of "do/don't do this or suffer the penalty" so much as "if we do it and incur the penalty, do we still make a profit?" As example of that was Sunday trading - a number of the big supermarkets openly flouted the law because they thought that the most profitable in the long run. (I am not taking about whether Sunday trading is or is not a good thing - just how companies will ignore the law if the cost-benefit suits them)

Part of the reason they could do this was that they could cross-subsidize penalties from profits on other days, and in the end the law was changed to allow them to trade very much as they wished.

My claim is that any national law will be inadequate - either the company will ignore the law(*) if it is profitable to do so, or they will decide it is not worth trading in a country whose laws make it non-profitable. The only way to overcome this is to the set laws at a higher level than a national law, and have mechanisms that allow the countries in such alliances to reach agreements with each other that can be enforced.

(*) Because even the boards of companies are people, there are still laws they will abide by with little questioning, of course. But the principle that laws are treated as cost-benefit analyses than instructions is, I believe, a consequence of the stuff Iains was saying.

-----

Big Al: I, for one, do not think I have everything worked out - it is all a work-in-progress from my point of view. I have said before, and repeat again here, I would love to be completely wrong about the consequences of Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt.

The minds of ideologues countenance no doubt, see religious fundamentalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

It is not a question of being right or wrong, or even ideology. It is more a study of the facts and their rational interpretation. All other factors being equal a company/corporation/organisation will locate where cost/benefit dictates. A case in point: Ireland
"Ireland was placed 11th out of 82 countries as one of the most attractive business locations in the world in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s (EIU) Business Environment Ranking for 2008-2012.

Experts say that Ireland is attractive because it has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world at 12.5 per cent"

https://www.eolasmagazine.ie/what-attracts-companies-to-ireland/

First they say this:https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/tags/corporate-tax_en

Then they sat this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-in-fresh-warning-on-irish-corporation-tax-base-1.3690699
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ireland-needs-to-upset-the-apple-cart-on-corporate-tax-1.3674289

So much for member state fiscal independence!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:49 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 11:15 PM

I always thought the Commonwealth countries were more loyal and reliable allies than anyone looking east.

That's one of the reasons I voted against going into the EEC in '74.

Still if that's how you feel Steve, fair enough. Its all down to gut feeling, and that's why a lot of this arguing is futile.

Doubly futile, cos no one gives a shit what we think or what we vote for. The bosses will get away with whatever serves their interests best. And that's anyone's guess.
A sensible post at last

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

"The EU’s long-running duplicity over the Irish border has finally come to a head this week with the Commission wrapping itself up in knots trying to maintain its spurious position on the backstop. After Commission Spokesman Margaritas Schinas caused a major fuss on Tuesday by saying that the EU would force Ireland to erect a hard border in the event of no deal, Michel Barnier let the cat out of the bag yesterday while trying to reverse the diplomatic damage, admitting that in the event of no deal “we will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border”, going on to say that “my team have worked hard to study how controls can be made paperless or decentralised, which will be useful in all circumstances.” Thus blowing apart the entire fiction that the backstop is necessary to avoid a hard border…

The Telegraph’s James Crisp grilled Schinas on this very point today, who ended up so flustered by the question that he eventually snapped back: “write what you like”. The sham of needing the backstop to avoid a hard border is finally starting to unravel in Brussels. Time the sycophantic British media and political establishment woke up too…"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:41 AM

Because a number of factors affect choices of where corporations locate, there comes a tipping point which fianally determine these decisions as it is not a simple as moving to the office next door, and it seems that a lot of tipping points have been reached in the last few months as no business is going to base strategic decisions on what may or may not happen and quite rightly up sticks to where there is more certainty about the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:48 AM

When you use a phrase like 'long running duplicity' Iains, its a sort of claim for moral high ground.

isn't this why Mo Mowlem succeded where the Thatcherites failed in NI?

Thatcher categorised her enemies as criminals. Mowlem tried to treat the separate parties at their own assessment of themselves - as men of honour.

I think until all sides grasp this basic tennet of diplomacy, the news is going to be kind of predictable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:01 AM

Hi Al

Beautifully put. " Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt. "

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM

Big Al the EU has used the Irish border as a means to bully the brexit negotiations from day one. The EU picked on the border because they knew that making an issue of it could possibly inflame old wounds.Calling their behaviour duplicitous is a very mild rebuke.It is nor moral high ground.It is a simple statement of fact. To choose the one single item that could cause dissent,and to belabour it constantly indicates to me the weakness of their position. Making the border a stumbling block will hurt the Republic far far harder than the UK, as many realists acknowledge. A shame the political class are not as clued up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:20 AM

If the EU wanted to bully the UK it could do so much more effectively. The EU has in fact shown amazing forbearance, given the self-entitled, intransigent, an at times demented behaviour of the UK government and the far right of the Conservative party who seem to have May in their pockets. The EU is aware that there are decent British people, but sad that they are not the ones coming to Brussels on behalf of the government. So they are trying to soften the outcome for the British people.

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:23 AM

A little old but fell by the wayside because of squawking abbot.
Question time and the roar of applause:


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-cheer-on-question-time-that-will-terrify-corbyns-labour/


and for light relief: Steptoe seniors theme song


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM

If Brussels oaid for my air fare and accommodation eytc I would talk to them tomorrow, and come up with a deal that follows the letter of the referendum result, ie withdrawal of the UK government and UK MEPs from the democratic decision making process, nothing else. My agreement would guarantee UK would follow the rules of the single market and customs union (while enjoying the benefits) until a further referendum held in the UK dictates otherwise. I would ensure that disadvantaged people in the UK continue to benefit from structural funding. I would also guarantee that UK legislation would follow or exceed expectations of EU cohension, social, international aid, environmental policies etc.I would have a no-strings re-entry agreement if at some time in the future UK decoides that it wants a say on the policies it has to follow after all. The negotiations wouldn't be about winning and losing, but what is in the best interest of UK and EU27 citizens. Unfortunately EU do not want to talk to decent intellegent people, but to self-serving idiots like May, Davis, Raab etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM

'If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.'

Well maybe they should. my parents lived through a time when they did just that.

You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM



And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:07 PM

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

Well, yes, but with a near 100% agreement on the enemy, and doing so to resist what an enemy was attempting to achieve. That is somewhat different to the situation where some-48% of the population think it is being inflicted on them by the other some-52% against all their best interests...


You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.

And there is a price to be paid if you generate ill-will in your neighbours.   It will not make trade deals easier to arrange if the UK appears to be incoherent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM

I do wish some people would stop fighting Againcourt all over again
The EU is a gathering of capitalist nations working together to make the best of a dying society - no great future, but a better one than that based on the Xenophobic isolationism that is Brexit
I'm curious Al, given the likely outcome, what practical advantages do you see in leaving Europe ?
HOPE YOU WEREN'T PLANNING ANY FOREIGN GIGS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM

How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome. I remember various bombings in England from my younger days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:54 PM

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.
Electricity imports fromFrance and the netherlands equals 1% of UK fuel imports
Oil(entrepôt product) from Netherlands 10% mainly refined as a result of closure of Milford Haven and Coryton refineries.
Coal less than 10% from EU
Gas 7% from EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:01 PM

Food was the first item in that list.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM

So how does the gas get to the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:16 PM

mainly Norway and shipped from quatar and still some from the north sea

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM

Try Qatar. I should know how to spell, i have been there enough times geosteering for said gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM

I'm not sure how forest-for-the-trees we are getting. There are certainly many many interstitial items that fall out when this frictional divorce is underway. There is no way to see how the little pieces help or hurt.

The big hurt is the forced lack of connection in a very connected world.

European Union as noted in the Wikipedia article I referenced above is on the verge of being a Superpower. This is good in an age with another verging power, China, an errant Superpower, the US, and a would be power that is a big fat troublemaker, Russia, and who knows where India's going.

The other thing I can't get out of my mind is the not-so-secret but everywhere power that was brought to the EU by English itself. How could the UK give up its continued quiet conquest of the world by its very language? I know I know that there are other languages in the UK, but the Celtic contribution and occasional dominance in the UK has been through facility in the Engllish language. The United States is probably composed of 80% of people descended from non-English speakers, Canada somewhat less, but English is one of the world glues and a powerful advantage. Taking this away from the EU is a travesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:02 PM

"How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome"
I do wish people wouldn't do this - the problem is the unnatural and enforced border, not the Irishmen
Think the Home Bounties being partitioned off from the rest of Britain - that should give a feel of what things are about here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:12 PM

Approx 36% of energy used in the UK is imported.

Source UK Energy in Brief 2018, assetspublishingservice.gov.uk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 PM

"Think the Home Bounties [I take it the 'B' another of your jokes] being partitioned off from the rest of Britain"

Where I live, the vote was more than 60% for remain - maybe we can be partitioned off and stay in the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:59 PM

"...when they did just that"

"They" evidently being a word for all our fellow Europeans, to be identified with the Nazi regime in Germany.

I imagine we're going to get a lot of that if we are lumbered with a no deal exit. The people responsible will do their utmost to divert the blame for the unpleasant consequences from themselves on to those nasty foreigners.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:26 PM

The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement. This agreement also extended the internal market to include most of the member states of the European Free Trade Association, forming the European Economic Area covering 15 countries.

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy. This was also when the three European Communities, including the EC, were collectively made to constitute the first of the three pillars of the European Union, which the treaty also founded. The EC existed in this form until it was abolished by the 2009 Treaty of Lisbon, which incorporated the EC's institutions into the EU's wider framework and provided that the EU would "replace and succeed the European Community"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:15 PM

@ Iain
“To choose the one single item that could cause dissent” is what everybody should have done from the start ,Iain . if you are driving a well looking for oil and find that there is a huge block that will break all drill bits known to man , you would , as an engineer ,proceed from that knowledge surely - whatever the quantities of black gold beneath the impregnable rock ?
@ KarenH .
You think that the murderous Irish are being stubborn . You’re entitled to your prejudices , Karen ,but you should have really thought about the stubborn, savage Irish before you embarked on your stupid referendum course in 2016 . You are a Remainer and would probably think that, unlike the savage Irish , British people shouldn’t all be tarred with the same Brexit brush .But remember that David Cameron who called the referendum is also a Remainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:36 PM

@Maymick
and your point is:)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM

My point is that is was your referendum , not Ireland's but Ireland has to put up with the consequences.British nationalists can only think about what is best for Britain and not about the effect their policies have on other countries .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM

Another terrible Question Time. Fiona Bruce gave free rein on brexit to the ghastly and garrulous Tory woman, even allowing her to make an extensive interruption after she'd told her to shut up. To add insult to injury, the camera repeatedly sought out the sneering Tory woman at every opportunity as other panellists were speaking. In contrast, Bruce gave the other panellists much less time and made frequent interruptions. Half way through the show she made an extremely mumbled ten-second "correction" to her utter balls-up in last week's programme, and it was very noticeable that she didn't even refer to Diane by name. Blink and you'd have missed it. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience, though, as ever, there were occasional diamonds embedded in the crock of shite. A terrible advert for democracy. I reckon it's time for a radical rethink on this show. I'd like to see a far smaller audience for a start. In other words, Grr. And thank God I had Highland Park to hand. End of rant due to gradual mellowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM

Steve the result was in part the work of Murdoch , yet you persist in financing him through sky box just tp watch football at least jim watches shakespeare, what do you expect

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM

I expect that I'll be ignoring you until you turn the bloody record over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM

I've never had a Sky Box by the way, and don't know what one is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM

i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island.

We need a planned approach to the seas around us. I just don't think the continued fishing by factory ships and even the big English fishing boats is sustainable.

Similarly I think we need to take charge of the wealth in the country, and subsidise the building of modern factories.

The EU law wouldn't allow the land grab this would involve. Then they wouldn't allow the subsidies.

I'm an old style socialist. I believe in a planned economy. Preferably planned by the English government. We need to get into government - unconstrained by Brussels,

In answer to Backwoodsman's point. Yes of course I have doubts. But I honestly believe we're in trouble if we don't change direction. The Blair government was heartbreaking for guys like me. After 18 years of tory intransigence and double-dealing. If we had reorganised then, we wouldn't be in this mess. Held to ransom by a tiny enclave in a highly unpopular government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM

As I've said God knows how many times, Al, the amount we pay into the EU is around one percent of our GDP. We get some of that back in farm subsidies and regional development grants (Cornwall, where I live, has had half a billion). True, we are net contributors. Our money goes into stabilising countries with weaker economies, helping to maintain their democracy. One percent of our GDP, to help maintain peace and stability in what has been a volatile continent since the dawn of time. But you gib at that? Al, did you actually KNOW how little of our money is tied up with the EU, you know, the stuff you agitate to "take back control" of? Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap? Tell you what, Al. Once we leave we'll be under the control of massive trading blocs who are in no hurry to give us any deals (not a single one so far, despite Liam Fox promising us forty by now). Enjoy your new-found non-freedoms and your new-found non-opportunities!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM

its not the point, Steve. The point is that after the war, we decided we wanted full employment.,,after alll the shit people went through in rhe 1930's.

Our industries weren't the most efficient in the world, but by subsidising them - we avoided having beggars on the street, a hard drugs problem, and all the other social ills that are commonplace in tough capitalist economies like the US.

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.

Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.

THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.

In Sutton in Ashfield, Notts. They have lost mining, mining equipment manufacture, textiles,   ceramics. The Eu has compensated them with an ornamental sundial. Go figure....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM

The EU was not responsible for those losses and you know it, Al.

Thing is, Al, we have been sold a big lie about the EU ever since the time of Wedgie Benn and Michael Foot (both blokes I admired in most other regards), not to speak of a litany of Tory eurosceptics. People like them ensured via their oft-misleading propaganda that we believed Europe was under the undemocratic control of Brussels bureaucrats, which was never even remotely true. All EU decisions, whether or not suggested by the Commission, are either agreed to by common consensus among 28 sovereign nations, put to the vote in the European Parliament, or vetoed. And of course the EU is protectionist. Tell me one major trading bloc that isn't. Yet you're happy for us to ditch the sort-of-protectionist EU in favour of the uber-protectionist US and China. I mean, wassup, Al!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM

A lot of people in the UK seem to be still fighting the last two world wars , only with the EU taking the place of Germany .As with Big Al’s post above :
“The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM

Well I suppose that's a better way of fighting a world war than the previous two. I've been to several EU countries for my hols and I love them. I find people there with the same hopes, aspirations, McDonalds and M&S as we have in the UK. I don't see dark animosity or plots to get us or desires to screw the UK. I feel quite European, actually. I want to go there as often as I can, as I love their summer warmth, their lovely grub, their friendly people and especially their gelati, and I want them to come here if they want. I've never been called up to fight Europeans, neither has my son. That's cracking good stuff is that. I'm off to bed now. Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM

if you do not knowwhat a sky box is ask Jim, in the meantime you are still supporting rupert murdoch , which is imo hypocritical, you gave the impression in an earlier post that you paid for sky television just to watch a soccer match , bloddy pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM

No , I don't know it.

Of course I have doubts when virtually every MP with an IQ above room temperature disagrees with me.

But I don't really see anyone actually countering my arguments. They just abuse them and me. And I remember the ten solid miles of steel factories outside Sheffield, I used to drive past on the way to gigs. And all the textile factories, where my father in law worked as a knitter and trimmer, round where I lived - making excellent goods like Viyella Shirts, and the skills that have been lost. And I see marks and Spencer shutting down stores everywhere cos they can't sell the cheap[ foreign made goods on their shelves at High Street prices. They offer Cotton Trader products at High Street prices.

And I think we've got it wrong and membership of the EU is part of the problem.

And I don't think we'll set it right til we're quit of them, and our MP's are answerable to US and not Brussels appointees, who keep our representatives of every party waiting and buggering about. And that is my sincere belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM

"i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island."
So a Britain tied to Ecological vandal Trump is more likly to save the planet than being part of a group that is, at least, paying lip-service to co-operation and control - give us a break Al
We USED to be an island 0 one that controlled a large proportion of the world, but now we are totally reliant on others - we have no industries to speak of and no plans to develop any so on the one hand, we rely on cheaply produced goods manufactured in apalling conditions, from textiles to computers, while at the same time building walls to keep the people who make the goods we buy out
We fished the oceans empty before the days of Sam Larner so there is no chance of reviving our fishing industry, so instead of staying within a group where there is a chance of making the best of what's left cast ourselves adrift - crazy argument
Britain is totally incapable of "going it alone" for al the flag-wagging - it doesn't even have a united people or a Government capable of holding a whist drive, never mind leading a country
That is the referendum's legacy, and it hasn't even begun to bite yet
Jim   
If

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM

TRY THIS FOR SIZE AL
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM

"Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning..."
Probably same as me - because the pubs are closed (:-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM

Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning
I read it when I woke at about 5:50am. We nearly have 24h coverage of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM

You don't need a Sky box to watch Sky, Dick.

Do you use petro chemicals? Eat food? Wear clothes? Each one of those industries is culpable in any number of human rights abuses yet you witter on about someone watching football on Sky. I know where the epithets pathetic and hypocritical should really be applied.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM

of course we can revive our seas. We must.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
Another terrible Question Time. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience.
Freedom of Information request – RF20101013

"I would like to be supplied with the selection criteria the BBC use when it comes to deciding who to
select from among the many applicants to participate in the 'Question Time' audience." Please note that your request is outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“ the Act”) but we are happy to explain that the programme ensures that there is due balance between the main political parties, as well as minor parties and unaligned voters in the audience.
We hope you find this helpful.

Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap?
Sovereignty is the word you mean!
Note:
control: the power to influence or direct people's behaviour or the course of events.
sovereignty: supreme power or authority. "the sovereignty of Parliament"
    synonyms:        jurisdiction, supremacy, dominion, power, ascendancy, suzerainty, tyranny, hegemony, domination, sway, predominance, authority, control, influence, rule, freedom

It should not be necessary to point out these vital distinctions! It was to escape external control and a re-assert sovereignty that the referendum was predicated upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM

I'm not saying that your article is wrong about the way things are. I'm saying -its not the way it should be. We need to rip up everything that's gone before and get marine biologists to work out a way forward that is sustainable and good for the future.

We owe it to future generations to make our seas healthy. I won't say again - past generations didn't really have the global vision that is so natural to us now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.
Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.

Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.
Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school.
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM

"of course we can revive our seas. We must."
Don't you think it strange that, despite the fact that Britain's fishing indistrt==y has been in steady decline for decades yet no Government, inside or out of Europe, has lifted a finger to help it ?
It has only surfaced now as an academic political ploy
The most likely scenario on the table now is that Britain will sacrifice the fishing rights to Europe in a deal benefiting other aspects of the economy
Britain's fishing will still remain in the hands of Europe, the only difference being that we will no longer have a say in it
Even if Britain crashes out of Europe, fishing will be way down the list of priorities, allowing the industry just to fade away completely
Crazy Al, crazy
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.

Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school."

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!"

Could you explain all that to Big Al please, Iains? He seems to be under the mistaken impression they were destroyed by the EU, despite repeated explanations to the contrary by those of us whose memories are still in full working condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM

"The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."

The other way of putting that, Al, is that other countries used the flexibility built into the rules more intelligently than the UK, in such a way as to avoid unnecessary damage to their industries. The EU doesn’t have "their own industries". EU members do. And they didn't choose to elect a Margaret Thatcher and give her a licence to kill.

Blaming other people for our own cock-ups is very much the flavour of the times it seems. The same is done in the case of freedom of movement as interpreted by the UK government in a way that exploits both immigrants and natives in the interest of predatory employers.

And a pedantic point. "We are after all an island". No we aren't. England is not an island, nor is the UK. Great Britain is an island, but it has never been a country except between 1703 and 1801.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

""The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."
A strange indication that Britain has never regarded herself as part of Europe
Protectionism of their own industries surely includes British industries, which was what we agreed to when we signed up
When/if we leave, that "protectionism" will remain and be to the disadvantage of Britain - all Britain will do is remove its right to have a say in it (as with the fishing industry)
Crazier and crazier
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

Backwoodsman. The legacy of Thatcher was that she recognised the decline of UK industry and introduced de regulation and encouraged globalism as a counter.

How much of her policies led to pluses and minuses in society can be argued for ever. These changes impacted the entire world and the jack will not go back in the box.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-reagan-thatcher-revolution/a-16732731

https://www.ft.com/content/8f41da48-a05f-11e2-a6e1-00144feabdc0

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-impact-legacy-development

The real problem, well demonstrated by the referendum, is that there is a basic dichotomy between globalisation of trade by ever growing multinationals and retention of national identity and sovereignty. The overarching reality of the EU becoming a political union does nothing to combat the ever growing power of multinationals. Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day. This is well demonstrated by our present crop of mps. 500 voted for article 50. Who paid them to change their minds?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM

"Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day."

I completely agree. Yet you Brexshiteers voted to remove the checks, balances and controls of the EU over the behaviour of the tiny, immensely wealthy, powerful cadre who, in order to further their own interests and increase their wealth and power, have driven the BrexShit process from the dark shadows, and to hand absolute power to them, no matter what damage it causes to the lives of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM

The regulations killed our industries. Thatcher used them to take political power from the trades unions.

Saying that the regulations weren't to blame is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people ' shit. We all know if the guns aren't available people don't get killed in quite so many numbers. or maybe you disagree with that.

I saw it happen. I saw it was going to happen. I watched it happen as predicted.

You don't have to agree with me. You're free to tell me I'm an asshole for thinking as I do. many do.

But I 'm not going to take sides with the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

Other countries didn't exploit the regulations self destructively. A better analogy than guns here is cars. Cars driven sensibly are useful. There are some people who shouldn’t be allowed behind a wheel. Margaret Thatcher was someone who shouldn't have been trusted in charge of a country, and you can't blame the EU for that.
................


Here is an entertaining spin on the Brexit debacle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM

Dunno if that was for me, Al, or someone else? All I'll say is that you know my views on The Beast of Grantham very well, I've made them very plain on many occasions - she was the worst thing that's ever happened to this country in peacetime.

The point I was making in my comment to Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM, was that, despite being told that British industry, fishing, etc. was buggered before we joined the Common Market (i.e. 'long before marvellous Maggie even started secondary school'), you continue to blame the EU for their demise.

I simply hoped that hearing it from a fellow Brexshitter, you might start to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM

Big Al the world was changing prior to Thatcher. If you study the aircraft industry it was a world leader immediately postwar and into the fifties. Both political parties destroyed the aircraft industry ably assisted by management of the numerous aircraft companies. The reluctance to modernise and integrate was not restricted to the aircraft industry. The unions are a separate issue- governments rule countries not unions,( or cadres trying to redefine british democracy, as now). Thatcher created big bang and as a result the service sector exploded while traditional industries declined due to poor management, union activists, lack of investment and more importantly global competition. How you wish to explain it depends on perspective. The textile industry grew on the colonial market, now many of those markets manufacture and export. They also have the competitive advantage.
The industrial revolution started in the UK but on down the line others learn from our mistakes and did not have obsolescence to deal with. America also soon caught up and overtook the UK in innovation. The US industry for small arms was the first to perfect mass production techniques.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

"The regulations killed our industries. "
Utter nonsense - I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment, her motive, to smash the unions, the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry   
We in the North of England watched this happen before our eyes because we were the worst effected
Where did "regulations" come into any of this - most of it was deliberate because it was more profitable to buy foreign
You seem to be floundering around to find reasons to blame Europe
I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so
https://www.ippr.org/blog/if-you-think-brexit-is-going-to-be-bad-for-the-economy-just-wait-until-you-see-what-s-in-store-for-us-in-2020
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM

Just watched a number of interviews with Irish politicians of various parties - none of which I support
All have pointed out masterfully that the Border is Briain's chosen problem and it is Britain's job to sort it outinstead of constantly blaming the Irish for not co-operating
I think that goes for the few here who refuse to recognise the seriousness of Ireland's problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM

I would masterfully point out that Ireland will be directly impacted by brexit. I would also point out thatIntransigence is not a clever negotiating tactic.

I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain

This is called progress.

the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry

Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies.

Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment,

Utter rubbish as you have been told repeatedly on this forum and given the supporting statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM

"I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."

Errrmm....you mean Jeremy Corbyn, surely? ;-)

May's already trying to blame him for the entire debacle, I'm sure the Brexshiteers will be happy to follow her lead...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times
Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry - wonderful to see the patriots describing Britain's industrial pride in such patriotic terms - (sorry Dave, we would be neglecting in our duty to let that gem of national pride go un-commented on)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

Main thing is, they'll blame it all on those nasty foreigners who've ganged up against the UK. And of course Remainers who stopped us having a proper Brexitty deal. Always someone else's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times

I won't get into whether it is ironic or not because that is a really complicated subject. But what I meant was that whatever sort of Brexit we end up with any problems will be blamed on the fact is was not done in line with the purists and so it will be, as McGrath said, someone else's fault. It will never be seen as a problem inherent in Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM

"was not done in line with the purists"
This disingenuous nonsense needs to be faced head on
The decision, my a minority of the British people, was agreed with no qualified set of promises - there is still no coherent map of where Britain will go when/if they leave
All this should have been laid before the British people before the vote was taken - instead they were given a magical mystery tour to vote on based largely on controlling the input of foreigners
If the people's opinion meant anything more than a fart in a hurricane to these no-marks, those who did would be given a chance to confirm that their decision remains the same and those who didn't should be allowed to vote on theirs and their childrens' future with the fuller facts at their disposal.
Democracy has only meant anything to them indoors when it can be manipulated to serve the haves and, at the same time, give the impression of being the peoples' will
It's at times like this that I thank the god I don't believe in for proportional representation, which, while not being fuly democrating, at leastt manages to keep some of the sharks at bay
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM

Irish troops threatened to the Irish border.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46998533

or according to Guido it is fast becoming a Brian Rix farce



https://order-order.com/2019/01/25/now-varadkar-threatens-put-troops-irish-border/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

I don't think you are getting my point, Jim, but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough. I do not believe in a One True Brexit, but there are those who do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry.

Only if the business model indicates success. Otherwise it would be rather silly!

It is only the loony left that thinks finance falls like manna from heaven, off a magical money tree. That is why each time in power their economic policy creates an industrial wasteland of catastrophic proportions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Hmm! A gnome, a troll, or a vexatious little goblin?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM

"but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough"
I think I do - I was trying to establish whether you were being ironic, which seems to eb the case
My posting wasn't aimed at what you said, which was clear enough - it was my summing up of what I believe needs to be established clearly

Does someone have the emergency number for Rainhill? (understandable only to Liverpudlians over a certain age)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM

I don't like to say I told you so but...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM

There is no dispute, it is a spiteful little goblin trying to get the thread closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM

he embattled People’s Vote campaign are dismayed that Jeremy Corbyn won’t get off the fence and back their second referendum campaign. It’s funny how they’re now begging for his help when they’ve been some of his harshest critics for years:
What a joke!

    Tony Blair in 2016 said Jeremy Corbyn in power would be a “very dangerous experiment”.
    Peter Mandelson in 2017 said “I work every single day in some small way to bring forward the end of his tenure in office. Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene – every day I try to do something to save the Labour party from his leadership.”
    Alastair Campbell in 2015 called on Labour members to vote for “anyone but Corbyn” and said that his election as leader would show that Labour had “given up on being a serious party of government”.
    Chuka Umunna in 2015 said that Corbyn and his “nasty trolls” should be disqualified from office because of their pacifist views.
    Sadiq Khan in 2016 wrote that Labour “cannot win with Corbyn” and said that Corbyn had “proved that he is unable to organise an effective team, and has failed to win the trust and respect of the British people”.
    Tom Baldwin, the People’s Vote’s Director of Communications, wrote in 2016 that “people at every level of our party recognised a responsibility to bring Jeremy Corbyn’s experimental retro-70s leadership to a swift end” and tweeted that “getting rid of Corbyn would be a step in the right direction”.
    Anna Soubry just last week called Corbyn the “most hopeless opposition leader we’ve ever had” .
    Mike Gapes also directly attacked Corbyn just last week, saying “Apparently Corbyn is prepared to hold talks with Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Iran without preconditions. But not with the UK Prime Minister. Why?”
    Chris Leslie in 2015 accused Corbyn of “plucking figures out of the air” and said that his policies would hit the poor the hardest as well as keeping Labour out of power for a decade.
    Sarah Wollaston in 2016 said “Whatever your political views, we all benefit from a competent official opposition; that cannot happen under Corbyn”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM

"I don't like to say I told you so but..."
Don't lie - yes you do, we all do
We wouldn't me human if we didn't
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM

You are both right :-)

Back to brexit now.

Philip Hammond has now said that "leaving without a deal would cause 'severe damage' to the UK economy".

Common sense from Tory. Wonders will never cease.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM

...All we need to happen now is for May to listen to her chancellor and take no deal off the table. Corbyn will then add some real sense and we can move the whole shambles into a firmer footing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM

I have a cunning plan... :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM

On the subject of our Troll, if he's posting sensibly and civilly I have no problem interacting with him. Unfortunately, his psychiatric disorder means that he seldom keeps it up for long. Then it's time to ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM

No point, John. You know what is coming so just ignore him full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM

I suspect a quite word has been said in his earhole ......

Back to Brexit.

The UK government has been training people to prepare for a disorderly exit from the UK.

A sign of things to come.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

You have a point Dave. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM

I strongly suspect that most people in the rest of the EU are crossing their fingers against the possibility that the UK might change its mind and stay in. That's among those who are particularly interested in the whole thing. A silent majority - rather similar to what was revealed in a study that found that a large majority of Tories would be happy to see the back of Scotland and Northern Ireland if that would mean that Brexit went ahead. So much for Theresa May's "our precious union".

Large majorities of English Tory voters would be willing to support Scottish independence (79 percent) or even the undoing of the Northern Ireland peace process (75 percent) as “worth it” to “take back control” from the European Union, new research from the Universities of Edinburgh and Cardiff has suggested.
Reuter’s, October 2018.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM

This has certainly affected the US economy. It is probably relating to some of the comments that are focused on current economic plights.

Worldwide population is inexorably growing, thus increasing the availability of labor, esp. cheap and very cheap labor.
Technology has enabled the reliable movement of capital.

The above two points have led to what is called globalism.
Uncontrolled it leads to rapid impoverishment of once stable working classes.
With regulation and some discomfort, it can lead to the changes in manufacturing and service industries that most of us have been witness to.
With controls and tariffs and embargoes, many of the inevitable changes can be held off for a time providing false sense of security and temporary job pseudo-stability.

The development of the EU, and such agreements in the West and Asia as NAFTA and the TPP were attempts to acknowledge the inevitable changes to the world economy while minimizing (the over-used fancy work is 'mitigating') the pain of displacement and redundancy. Obama was onto this, but unfortunately Trump made a successful appeal to fear and ignorance. I think the BREXIT affair was parallel only that Europe had its own issues (the bureaucratic rule out of Brussels and the population displacement out of Turkey, Arabia and Africa. What the anti EU and anti-Obama movements had in common was fear (a lot of it understandable) and a certain amount of racism (not accusing everyone of racism, just saying that it doesn't take much to make a difference).

Bottom line: These changes are going to come regardless, and those who can manage to align for them will experience the least pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM

Good summary, Robomatic.

Of course both Trump supporters and EU leavers will deny any element of fear, ignorance or racism and I don't believe for one minute that either group have a majority of people displaying those attributes. But, as you say, it doesn't take many to make a difference.

I have just finished re-reading "The Truth" by Terry Pratchett. One of the lines that was resonant with me then is even more so now.

A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM

"Then it's time to ignore him."
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be now doing, the Mods will have no alliterative Then it's time to ignore him.but to take action against him
Any reacting to or against his indefensible behaviour can only prolong his trolling - as I have been told constantly by a mod "stop feeding the troll- makes sense to me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM

Spell corrector went haywire there
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be doing the mods will have no alternative but to do something take action against him

Faulty posting should keep hi busy for a while
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM

"resonant with me then" should have read "resonant with me first time round".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM

So it looks like the most likely amendment to pass on Tuesday is a Tory one to go back and renegotiate the backstop. Meanwhile the EU is clear the price of reopening the backstop discussions is a permanent customs union. Which of course the reason the Leavers want the backstop changed.

Place your bets now whether Parliament will vote to demand rejection of the backstop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=161452
seems very clear to me who the b******s are. It is the usual suspects!

Perhaps a kind forum fairy would close this thread as it now merely seems to consist of repeated personal attacks by the "usual"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM

One persistent assertion of the "no deal" Brexiteers is that leaving with no deal would mean £39 billion to play with that they wouldn't have to give to those nasty foreigners. What they ignore is that that £39 billion is not a fine for leaving, it is payment in respect of debts incurred by the EU - a version of those debts which has if anything been pared down to assist the UK in these difficult times.

Failing to pay would be a matter of the UK defaulting on its debts, which is not a very good basis for winning the trust of any tother countries in conducting any kind of business or negotiation. The term used in such cases is "pariah state". Or to use a term with historical basis in the case of this country "Albion perfide".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM

I doubt that many leavers would understand that, Kevin. In a recent survey, linked above, 26% of people thought that no deal meant we would be staying in the EU.

Maybe I am lucky in that I studied British constitution and government, and Economics at college but I thought that more people used to understand what was actually going on in politics than this. I guess the Tory cuts to education have done the job they were designed to do. An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM

Northern Ireland demonstrators out in force today demanding there should be no hard border
Perhaps the problems that Ireland, both sides of the border, will eventually filter down to those who claim it's the Irish and Europe who are being intransigent - it's the UKwho have thrown their toys out of the pram and now they are demanding that everybody else has to pick them up

Leo Varadkar got himself into hot water yesterday by suggesting the possibility of troops returning to te North _ I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said - there is a distinct possibility that, if things continue the way they are going British troops will have to return to keep order
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides,therefore the effect is self cancelling. Many of those subject to Tory education cuts are still below voting age, whereas those whose education was destroyed by Labout education cuts are fully enfranchised.
Was it not the Labour MP AnthonyCrossland said "If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."    Crosland is so quoted by his wife Susan Crosland in her biography. Hewent toa fee paying school
and from the Gruniard:
" Labour MP Diane Abbott made a second attempt to defend her decision to send her son to a fee-paying school, after she was attacked by her neighbouring MP in East London. ... Since then she has admitted her decision was "indefensible" but attacked the state of the education system"
A familiar pattern of labour elitism emerging here I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said

That will put you in a very small minority then!

The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings of a return to soldiers and checkpoints along the border if there is a no-deal Brexit.


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseachunder-fire-for-border-soldiers-warning-900216.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/violence-north-brexit-4452334-Jan2019/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides, therefore the effect is self cancelling.

I am afraid not: that assumes for example that the voting patterns of those with higher formal qualifications and without was the same, for example, which we know it wasn't. Also, it would not be self cancelling if those wanting outcome A were more prepared to manipulate - or more effective - than those wanting outcome B: even if the electorate were equally manipulatable the effect would not cancel out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:00 PM

From the same article:
Over 1,000 adults were asked by Amarách Research for Claire Byrne Live yesterday, and 65% of people said they were fearful, while 24% said they weren’t.

It comes after a number of security alerts in Derry city in recent days, with the most recent last night involving a van reported abandoned outside a girls’ secondary school.

A number of incidents yesterday followed the explosion of a car bomb from outside a courthouse on Bishop Street in the city on Saturday night.

A comment below the article:
"Personally i think that the bomb attack at the weekend wasn`t to do with Brexit, but had more to do with the anniversary of 100 years ago and the first shots fired at Soloheadbeg, The bombing was exactly 100 years to the day of that anniversary which were claimed to be the first shots fired in Ireland`s civil war, it seems like this “New IRA” were trying to make a statement of some sort"

The official view of the UK government:
The attack that happened on Saturday night is the result of a threat level that has been in place before the Brexit vote, these are plots and activities that these people have been working on and trying to carry out for many, many years.

This rather confirms the statement:
The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings......".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 04:46 PM

From yougov:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.

70%/68% Dramatic? dont fink so!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 05:33 PM

On the other hand:

But Peter Kellner, the former president of the YouGov polling firm, said Sheerman was factually correct.
“I would not use Barry Sheerman’s choice of words but the facts are broadly on his side,” Kellner told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Monday.
“Overall, people who left school at 15 or 16 voted around two to one for Brexit. [For] people who got up to A-level or equivalent qualification [it was] 50:50. Graduates voted two to one to remain in the EU.
“So yes, there is quite a clear educational gradient in the way people voted in last year’s referendum.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 08:04 PM

So, DMcG, is that an argument for "a second referendum," or is it a rock-solid argument for not having referendums at all? By extension, is it an argument that the 2016 referendum was illegitimate?

You probably know what I think!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:20 AM

No, I don't think it is an argument for a second referendum. Or indeed against one. The factors that argue against a second referendum are those listed earlier. The only argument in favour of a second referendum I am aware of is that it may be a way of resolving some of the issues. To me, it is like Russian Roulette. Yes, if you play you may end up blowing you head off. So it only becomes sensible to play it when that is a lower risk than not playing.

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that (WOULD) could not be honoured
Aaah yes! The promise to honour the result ofthe referendum that looks increasingly like it will not be honoured by our treacherous mps.

More fine antics of labour's MPs corbyn and abbott:

Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott 'wreck' law to protect child abuse victims over fears a new data sharing treaty with the US could be used to sentence a criminal to death.

As a commentator said:
"Whatever is wrong with Corbyn and Abbott? They are a total disgrace to democracy and justice. Protection of children should be our most important priority as human beings."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.
I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me. If pointy heads cannot even predict the voting preferences of an electorate then taking any notice of their pontifications as to why they voted is a reckless pastime and could lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions.

In the US I believe a sociology degree is generally a BA. Hardly a hard science, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:13 AM

I am going to personalise it this time. Just over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market. I challenge the brexshitters here to tell me to my face why they feel they personally feel that I should not be entitled to this. The sniveling cowards will say 'because that is what the people voted for, not some crap like that'. I want to kn ow why they personally voted to **** up my rights as a European citizen. Is ****ing up peoples lives just a big joke to you all?

?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:30 AM

I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me.

Fair enough, they are more important things to discuss. But for the record it is formal logic and to do with independence of variables, not sociology.


As for SPB's question - I have my hypotheses why that happens, but being on the Remainer side of the fence, it is for others to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM

MSN reporting martial law being considered

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:37 AM

One of the many lies told and promises broken, SPB, was that it would be easy to negotiate the things you want. I think that those who voted to leave genuinely believed it would be. I would not blame them but rather put the blame on the shower of shits who blatantly lied, made promises they could not keep and then blamed it on everyone but themselves. In order

Nigel Garage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove

David Cameron must be included because he should have known better and Jacob Rees-Mogg just for being a twat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:41 AM

Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

They simply didn't know what they were voting for. They thought they were voting to kick Johnny Foreigner up the backside and stop him from coming here. They swallowed the hallowed lie that laws are forced on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. They didn't take your interests or mine or the good citizens of the EU into consideration. They didn't realise the mortal threat to peace in Northern Ireland. They didn't realise that we would relinquish a powerful controlling hand on future EU policy and that bad things are now going to happen in consequence. They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means, or that we are now going to lose "control" of a damn sight more money than ever got tied up with the EU. They forgot that "control of our borders" can only work one way and that we are now going to struggle to run our NHS and our care system, as if they aren't in enough Tory trouble already. They talk bullshit about "opportunities" and believed the vacuous promises that countries were going to fall over themselves to sign trade deals with us. We were promised forty by now, but we have yet to sign a single one. In their brainless hubris they thought they knew better along with their mates down the boozer than the people who are paid full-time to know better. They think that their cross on the ballot meant this, that and the other, when it was just a cross, not even an English word. The people who voted leave were either gullible, racists or gullible racists. And look where they've got us.

If you can, tune into Point Of View on Radio 4 on the iPlayer. Listen to Val McDermid's clear-headed exposition of why referendums are such a bloody stupid idea and how they can, and will, undermine and ultimately wreck democracy.

One day I'll tell you what I really think.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:56 AM

Theresa may has been blocking reform of Northern Ireland's stringent pregnancy termination laws in order to keep Sectarian DUP on her side
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:38 AM

Then again she might not. Is that project fear? or another "once upon a time" story?m

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM

They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means,.....

and their parents and grandparents did not know what sovereignty was during WW2 either I suppose.

You post some quite irrational material at times. No wonder you do not supply links. You would never find anyone to support you, other than the rabid left.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM

That is noticeably not an answer to Son's question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:51 AM

SPB's question. Damn autocorrect again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:02 AM

"Listen to Val McDermid's "
Saw an interview on Irish tele - amazing in-your - face lady (and a magnificent thriller writer)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:12 AM

ust over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market.

not going to personalize it ??????

You will still have freedom of movement. You may need a visa but not always.
As of 9 October 2018, British citizens had visa-free or visa on arrival access to 186 countries and territories, ranking the British passport 5th in terms of travel freedom (tied with Austrian, Dutch, Luxembourg, Irish, Norwegian, Portuguese and the United States passports) according to the Henley Passport Index. Visa free travel abroad is not uniform throughout the EU for it's citizens, it is dictated by each individual country,
Having a career mainly overseas for 45 years(not within the EU) freedom of travel was not a problem.

Leaving the EU meant leaving. That means leaving the EU customs union.
It is not like retrieving a piece of chewing gum from under the desk where remnants still adhere with tenuous links to the withdrawing entity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:22 AM

Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us, actually, as we are free to draw up all our domestic laws) that we have helped in a big way to draw up and which we overwhelming agree with. Most EU law is agreed to by common consent, without dispute. When we leave the EU and are obliged to make deals with the likes of the US and China (both of whom can manage quite well without good deals with us), we will have no say over regulations. And as a small nation we will be far more under the thumb of mega-corporations than we are now, under the umbrella as we are of almost half a billion people. So much for the much-vaunted "sovereignty," the subject of one of the leave campaign's most bogus arguments. Along with the let's-keep-foreigners-out part of the campaign, it was the one that appealed most to the chest-thumping little-England sentiment.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM

DMcG. Your patience knows no bounds! I am impressed. To be calmly and rationally explaining things to some who cannot tell the difference between "I am going to personalise it this time" and "not going to personalize it" takes some doing. I admire your fortitude but strongly suggest that you just ignore him as everyone else now does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM

Jim, the vote may have been in ignorance of the likely outcome therefore leave voters should admit their ignorance or confess that they deliberately voted because they personally wanted to kick people in the teeth by denying them the rights that they themselves had enjoyed for 40 years. Anyone who says that the resented these benefits for decades are surely liars. And again, I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union?

On a side issue, if in the future Cornwall is denied structural support and investment by the UK government, then the retired wannabe gentry should not be surprised if out-of-work Cornish people help them 'come home to a real fire'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM

I don't like ignoring people, Dave. I will happy ignore posts are that are abuse, whoever posts them, and if I think someone is just trying to 'stir' I am also prepared to ignore them. But I think SPB's question is a good one and deserves an answer. That can only come from the Iains, Nigels, bobads and so on. I and other leavers can give our views, but it will have to be one of the leavers that answers.

Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM

Steve, I gave Jim credit for your response, sorry Jim.

Freedom of movement is not just about travel, it is also the RIGHT to work, study, retire, live with another person. Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim. That is what treaties are for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for the response, DMcG. I have to differ with you purely on the basis that any interaction at all only encourages some to continue their campaigns of abuse and disruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:54 AM

Whoops! I and other *remainers*. I would not want to mislead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

"Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me."

Farridge, Farardsh, Garridge, garardsh, let's call the whole thing off!

Please?


(Sorry, this is no time for levity...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.
I would be extremely disappointed if government did notPLAN for all sorts of eventualities. to highlight such planning is project fear.
I am sure various other scenarios are planned for that would horrify you, had you knowledge of them. But unlike biblical terminology, there is no guarantee that It shall come to pass

Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim.
Totally incorrect!
Until recently(relatively) your passport addressed you as a subject, not a citizen. The status today is both
subject or citizen
Should anyone wish to test it I amsure conscription would very forcefully demonstrate who is entitled to what.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next..
Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us,

As usual not a shred of evidence to support your assertions.


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2012/06/13/europeanization-of-public-policy/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM

"I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union"
Hope that's not addressed to me - I'm for staying, not only on political principles, but over the last few wees, as Brits, we've been running around like blue-arsed flies trying to find out if Lemming Britain's actions will effect our living in Ireland
If it's going to effect us, how is it going to effect the several million brits living in Europe?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 09:31 AM

"I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union"

As a British subject you are only entitled to such freedoms as the crown allows you. No more. No Less

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 11:22 AM

A rough translation is that they ask to be elected by promising the earth - we believe them and elect them - they totally ignore all the promises they made and work for the wealthy for five years - then the cycle is repeated ad-infinitum
It may be called democracy but in fact it is 'democratic dictatorship'
We have what rights they care to give us, no more
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM

A review of the new Dyson model - the 'Moral Vacuum'...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 01:50 PM

In case you did not know the pronunciation of Brexit in the US is Breg zit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:14 PM

Americans pronounce everything wrong! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:10 PM

http://eveningharold.com/2019/01/23/dyson-launch-moral-vacuum/
The Sunday Times tax list is a full rundown of the top 50 taxpayers in 2017/18
Top was Stephen Rubin, owner of JD Sports and liable for £181.6 million last year

Sir James Dyson was third on the list paying £127.8 million

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:58 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM
. . . Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.
There may be some 'short term hardship' (translate that expression how you may) but I am willing to accept that for myself, in the belief that getting free of membership of the EU will, in the long run, be better for the UK.
I realise that my immediate (younger) family may have voted 'remain'. That is, of course, their option. But my belief is that their votes (if that was the case) were based on the knowledge of a limited period of experience. I voted based on the history of the EU/EEC/Common Market since we joined. I believe that the original choice to join (taken by politicians), or to remain in 'The Common Market' (taken by referendum) was the wrong choice.
The more I see of the manoeuvres by the EU politicians (including a large number of our MPs) to pressurise us not to leave (despite the result of the referendum) the more I believe I was right to vote 'Leave'.
And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:02 PM

That was my first post in this 'new' thread as I've been away on holiday (to Malta).
If we manage to escape the EU I don't imagine it will put any great barriers in the way of my taking such holidays in future (or to the Spanish islands, or elsewhere). The poorer (and sunnier) members of the EU rely on tourist income to a great extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 08:10 PM

Well make sure your health cover is up to snuff because a crashout means no EHIC, and no reciprocal medical care agreements means that your insurance will cost more, and it will also mean that your existing conditions won't be covered unless you pay a fortune. It could mean no more free roaming. And don't expect to swan through customs at the airport like you do now either. It's true that a weak pound means that Brits may be less inclined to go to Europe on holiday, which in turn may provide an incentive for EU holiday providers to cut costs. But book your hols now, Nigel, because, sure as eggs is eggs, that will be temporary. We're not the only tourists who like to holiday in Europe. I stashed away a goodly supply of euros when I could get 1.20 or more to the pound. Lucky me. Better move fast before May gets trashed again this week, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 02:05 AM

It was no accident that I asked about hardship for your nearest and dearest rather than yourself. We have all seen the cinematic set piece where the villain threatens the hero who nobly bears it, so the villain turns his weapon on the hero's family. "You are prepared to die for your beliefs, I see. Are you prepared for these others to die for them?"

That you are prepared to put up with problems for your beliefs is your right. The question is are you prepared to let others (who don't necessarily share them) suffer for them. That does not look heroic. It looks self centred.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 02:57 AM

Nigel's "does imagine" sums it all up really - that's what everybody has to do regarding Britain's future "imagine" - nobody knows what will happen after Britain leaves the E U, or, based on current rumblings, whether it even will leave
Already they are talking about putting any decision on 'the long finger' and pushing the date back a few months
One of the complaints of the economists and industrialists has long been that they cannot possibly plan for the future if they have no idea of what they are going to have to deal with
That rats like Dyson start deserting the sinking ship gives the impression that some of them have a good idea
Do you have any view of the shortages of medicines that is being discussed - can we assume that you "don't imagine" that will happen either?
I have become used to the mindless disinterest of our poster who wsums up British industry as the production of "widgets", but Nigel's complacency frankly depresses me
Is there no one on your side who can show some interest in Britain's future ?

Nice cartoon in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times - two road signs side-by-side - one reading "you are now leaving Fishguard", the other "Please join the queue for Dover here"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

"I have become used to the mindless disinterest of our poster who wsums up British industry as the production of "widgets", but Nigel's complacency frankly depresses me
Is there no one on your side who can show some interest in Britain's future ?"

In black and white a very clear indication of not having the slightest idea of what was said. Most ably demonstrated by the following:
I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
As was pointed out steverdores, dockers and longshoremen went the way of the dodo. The real story:Here(!Off the Waterfront: The long-run impact of technological change on ...
https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.679168!/file/2014_D2_2_Upward.pd.)
There never was a golden age . Old industries die, other modes of employment arise.
It is driven by economics and innovation. But discussing economics with the left is as productive as discussing metaphysics with a fruitfly.
Corbyn well recognises the problem:
Sep 26, 2017 - The Labour leader says it's right to be carrying out "war games" planning for government. ... suggested that there could be a run on the pound if Labour went into government. ...

This is a far more plausible scenario than wargaming troops on the streets after brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 04:56 AM

"That rats like Dyson start deserting the sinking ship gives the impression that some of them have a good idea"

Do you have any evidence to prove Mr Dyson is changing his tax domicile, or are you merely hurling insults at the man, who has tripled his U.K. team over the past five years and currently employs 3,500 people in the country, half of which are engineers and scientists.

I suggest you either prove your statement or retract publicly your slur on a man who paid 127.8 million to the Revenue last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:05 AM

Not to anybody in particular
Interesting to see that a future excuse for when Brexit sends what is left of British in industry crashing into smithereens will be that we never had one worth talking about anyway
Patriots - who'd have 'em !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:36 AM

"Patriots - who'd have 'em !!"

I'm a firm believer in Samuel Johnson's theory of 'patriotism'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:50 AM

"Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time. However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.”

However:We, the People, recognize that we have responsibilities as well as rights; that our destinies are bound together; that a freedom which only asks what's in it for me, a freedom without a commitment to others, a freedom without love or charity or duty or patriotism, is unworthy of our founding ideals, and those who died in their defense. Barack Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 06:48 AM

"I'm a firm believer in Samuel Johnson's theory of 'patriotism'."
Me too
We appear to be dealing with someone who believes that being patriotic means earning enough out of a country to have to pay £127.8 million per annum to the Revenue making a bomb out of EU subsidies for his farming enterprises, backing Brexit to the point of donating £12m, saying a "no deal" leave will "make no difference" and then pissing off from Britain when he realises that the policy he firmly supported and financed will rebound on him financially
'Rule Britannia every time - until the going gets tough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:18 AM

SEEMS LIKE DYSON ISN'T THE ONLY SCURRYING RAT

Even the leading political Brexireers
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-john-redwood-tory-mp-investors-withdraw-money-uk-economy-city-london-eu-a8056771.html

Brexit is an investment to some
https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/02/08/2198570/jacob-rees-moggs-huge-personal-windfall-after-brexit/

True patriots all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:23 AM

Well excuse me but I've always paid every single penny of all the tax I ever owed but all I bloody get on this forum is slagged off!

Odd chap, this Dyson. He campaigned and whinged and threatened the government when they wouldn't join the euro. Now he's somehow become an ardent brexiteer and his pronouncements and actions simply enable the confidence to be sapped from this country. With him we can't win, can we?

I'd also, as an aside, say this about him and his stuff. I've had his bloody hoovers, big beasts, cordless and hand-held, ever since they came out. When they work they're great, they really are, but give me a couple of hours and I'll tell you what's wrong with them. They jam, block, clog up, make a horrible whining noise (a bit like Sir Jim), spit out what they've just sucked up because the little flap doesn't work and the hoses last six months if you so much as dare to use them for the purpose for which they are supposedly intended. Emptying them unavoidably involves inevitable lung cancer. And the motors burn out and the allegedly washable filters are unfit for purpose. As for those hand-dryers in public bogs, it's an art in itself using them without touching the sides, and there's a puddle of slime, snot and at least one pubic hair in that nasty little trough at the bottom, so not too deep now, lads!

But his triumph came when he decided to give an unconditional five-year parts and labour warranty on his gear. Believe me, you need it and will invoke it often. That was his business coup de grace!

Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM

DEFINITELY AN INVESTMENT TACTIC
Jaysus - they really did see the British people coming, didn't they ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM

"
DEFINITELY AN INVESTMENT TACTIC
"
There-there !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:26 AM

Aaaaahh-yup to all of that Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM

Never trust a man whose parents couldn't spell 'Aaron'. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM

Well excuse me but I've always paid every single penny of all the tax I ever owed but all I bloody get on this forum is slagged off!

Odd chap, this Dyson. He campaigned and whinged and threatened the government when they wouldn't join the euro. Now he's somehow become an ardent brexiteer and his pronouncements and actions simply enable the confidence to be sapped from this country. With him we can't win, can we?

I'd also, as an aside, say this about him and his stuff. I've had his bloody hoovers, big beasts, cordless and hand-held, ever since they came out. When they work they're great, they really are, but give me a couple of hours and I'll tell you what's wrong with them. They jam, block, clog up, make a horrible whining noise (a bit like Sir Jim), spit out what they've just sucked up because the little flap doesn't work and the hoses last six months if you so much as dare to use them for the purpose for which they are supposedly intended. Emptying them unavoidably involves inevitable lung cancer, and you'll spend a pleasant ten minutes finding something with which to dig out the compacted fluff from a thousand little holes - if you can actually manage to dismantle the drum sufficiently to get at the fluff, that is. And the motors burn out and the allegedly washable filters are unfit for purpose. As for those hand-dryers in public bogs, it's an art in itself using them without touching the sides, and there's a puddle of slime, snot and at least one pubic hair in that nasty little trough at the bottom, so not too deep now, lads!

But his triumph came when he decided to give an unconditional five-year parts and labour warranty on his gear. Believe me, you need it and will invoke it often. That was his business coup de grace!

Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:35 AM

Dammit, I thought that hadn't taken! Leave it, mods - I embellished it a bit second time round!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:02 AM

Still no proof of Dyson's change of tax domicile, yet Sir Jim still continues to lie about the man. What a surprise!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM

"Finally, I'd say that any bloke who has accrued personal wealth of four and a half billion quid in a couple of decades making hoovers is ripping us off. If you don't believe me, look in the shops and admire the eye-watering prices of his stuff."

A typical ignorant leftard comment based on fliff, fluff and flimflam, that seems suspiciously like the politics of envy.

Dyson has mastered the noble art of manufacturing successful widgets.
He designed the Rotork Seatruck at age 23. It is a very useful mini landing craft that I have used in Gabon.

Greatest Inventions of Dyson
His personal wealth more than demonstrate that his widgets keep him solvent.

How he prices his goods is a matter for him but follows well trodden ground

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:25 AM

On the BBC News app at the moment....

"A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to higher prices and empty shelves, retailers are preparing to warn MPs.
M&S, Sainsbury's and Waitrose are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.
The warning comes in a letter from the British Retail Consortium and is signed by the main food retailers.
It comes ahead of crucial votes in Parliament tomorrow.
The letter, seen by the BBC, uses the government's own estimate that freight through Calais may fall 87% from current levels, threatening the availability and shelf life of many products.
The letter expresses worry over tariffs, with only 10% of the UK's food imports currently subject to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.
If the UK were to revert to WTO rules, the retailers warn that would "greatly increase import costs that would in turn put upward pressure on food prices".
The other signatories to the letter include the chief executives of KFC, Co-Op, and Lidl.
The letter spells out the UK's food relationship with Europe, with nearly one third of the food in the UK coming from the EU.
"In March, the situation becomes more acute as UK produce is out of season," the letter says.
At that time of year, 90% of lettuces, 80% of tomatoes and 70% of soft fruit sold in the UK is grown in the EU, the letter says.
No more room to stockpile
"As this produce is fresh and perishable, it needs to be moved quickly from farms to our stores," the retailers say.
Retailers have been reluctant to intervene in the Brexit debate but are doing so now as the UK's departure date from the EU approaches.
Their letter says that stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the complex, 'just in time' supply chain through which food is imported into the UK will be "significantly disrupted" in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
It adds it is difficult to stockpile any more produce as "all frozen and chilled storage is already been used".
"While we have been working closely with our suppliers on contingency plans, it is not possible to mitigate all the risks to our supply chains and we fear significant disruption as a result if there is no Brexit deal," the retailers say in the letter to MPs."

I don't remember seeing that on the side of that bloody bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM

I'm off to Waitrose to stockpile baked beans and air freshener.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:57 AM

What sucks even more than a Dyson? Support for Brexit from a direction you might not have expected:

The Communist Party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM

"I'm off to Waitrose to stockpile baked beans and air freshener."
Don't forget to call into Boots for the medicines you might not be able to get
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 09:03 AM

Not to anybody in particular
Interesting to see that a future excuse for when Brexit sends what is left of British in industry crashing into smithereens will be that we never had one worth talking about anyway
Patriots - who'd have 'em !!

I cannot make any sense of what you are trying to say.

It is a real education to see that those that protest the most have zero clue as to the difference between a Dyson the man and Dyson Ltd(a company)
Never has such confusion been displayed by so few.

In January 2019 it was announced that Dyson would move its headquarters to Singapore to ramp up manufacturing for their electric vehicle, stating Asia trade will be their main focus and commenting that the company was unhappy with EU/UK bureaucratic restrictions.

You really must learn to post accurately, otherwise your credibility goes pfffffff!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 09:08 AM

I am fairly sure I read that Rees-Mogg joked at the Bruges group speech that someone had thrust a leaflet into his hand which he found "sound on Brexit" and then discovered it was from the Communist party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:04 AM

An interesting analysis:


https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/what-will-happen-to-the-tory-traitors/

and the EU's useful idiots. Do they not realize that EU tax harmonization will create a wasteland where the multinationals once were? That will be their payment!

https://order-order.com/2019/01/28/irish-government-accused-weaponising-good-friday-agreement/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:16 AM

I suspect that the Brexiteers on here will tell us that the warning issued by retailers Sainburys, Asda, M & S, Co-op and Waitrose of expected shortages post Brexit to the Government are all part of Project Fear or that we cannot trust their predictions.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.

If the Brexiteers do not respond as I have suggested I have no doubt they will ignore this post completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM

Isn't it fascinating that someone who considers it anti-British to attack elected British members of parliament rant on about politicians of hiss own party and refers to the ones he doesn't agree with as "traitors"
Never understood this patriotism thing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:33 AM

Guardian article on retailers' warning

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM

Thanks DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM

There was talk of what Samuel Johnson thought of patriotism. Here some extracts from his pamphlet The Patriot:

A man sometimes starts up a patriot, only by disseminating discontent, and propagating reports of secret influence, of dangerous counsels, of violated rights, and encroaching usurpation.

   This practice is no certain note of patriotism. To instigate the populace with rage beyond the provocation, is to suspend publick happiness, if not to destroy it. He is no lover of his country, that unnecessarily disturbs its peace. Few errours and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion

   ...
   
   But all this may be done in appearance, without real patriotism. He that raises false hopes to serve a present purpose, only makes a way for disappointment and discontent. He who promises to endeavour, what he knows his endeavours unable to effect, means only to delude his followers by an empty clamour of ineffectual zeal.
   A true patriot is no lavish promiser: he undertakes not to shorten parliaments; to repeal laws; or to change the mode of representation, transmitted by our ancestors; he knows that futurity is not in his power, and that all times are not alike favourable to change.
   Much less does he make a vague and indefinite promise of obeying the mandates of his constituents. He knows the prejudices of faction, and the inconstancy of the multitude. He would first inquire, how the opinion of his constituents shall be taken. Popular instructions are, commonly, the work, not of the wise and steady, but the violent and rash; meetings held for directing representatives are seldom attended but by the idle and the dissolute; and he is not without suspicion, that of his constituents, as of other numbers of men, the smaller part may often be the wiser.
   He considers himself as deputed to promote the publick good, and to preserve his constituents, with the rest of his countrymen, not only from being hurt by others, but from hurting themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 12:19 PM

Sounds like a perfect description of the Brexshiteers, and a bloody good reason to kick them, and their insane BrexShit notions into touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 12:37 PM

"Sounds like a perfect description of the Brexshiteers,"
There's a nice leter in the Irsih Times this morning describing new terms that have sprung since the referendum - I was quite taken by "Brexcrement"
Someone must be reading your postings Baccie !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 01:06 PM

BBC news has just reported than a number of major food manufacturers have predicted that supermarket shelves could be left empty if Birtain crashes out of the E.U.
One brave Brexiteer interviewed told the reporter - "it wont do us any harm to do without for once"
You really couldn't make this up
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 01:27 PM

The date will have to be put back according to a Daily Mirror article from 23 Jan under the headline :
“Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you”

There just won’t be enough parliamentary time to conclude the bills that need to be passed before March 29 .
“Of the 14 new bills required for Brexit - on things like animal welfare, money laundering and haulage - just 5 have been passed since the referendum.
Of the 9 remaining, the one closest to being finished is the Trade Bill - and the House of Lords just voted to shelve it because it lacked detail.”
That defeat in the Lords means that Britain is now unable to move to World Trade Organisation rules in the event of a no deal Brexit.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-already-been-cancelled-heres-13896286

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 02:47 PM

If we believed everything we read in the Daily Mirror we would be in a very sad way. Most educated people regard it as a comic, along with the guardian, apart from teachers who like freebies.

Isn't it fascinating that someone who considers it anti-British to attack elected British members of parliament rant on about politicians of hiss own party and refers to the ones he doesn't agree with as "traitors"
Never understood this patriotism thing

It is in fine company then and joins a host of other things you do not understand. By the way are you going to substantiate your statement about Dyson moving his tax domicile, or apologize for using terminological inexactitudes? We await your response with interest!
This is twice I have asked now!

Let me explain who the traitors are.
MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.

But the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled.

Several months later there was a general election. Did any Tory MPs voice an objection to brexit or inform their electorate they would betray them 5 minutes later. The answer is: No they did not. Ensuring the security of their sinecure was of more importance to them than being honest to their electorate. Those are the facts and those facts lead a rational person to only one conclusiuon. Betrayal!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:06 PM

Eeeeh. Isn't this fun. Keep it up lads ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:07 PM

I see that the government is backing the Brady amendment, the one about revising tbe backstop. I can't see how this is going to move us on. The backstop can neither be removed nor time-limited, nor should it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:22 PM

It seems to rely entirely on the assumption that the EU will back down. Seems unlikely to me. So then she would have to bring back version A again, more or less. Unless the amendments of Cooper and Grieve are in play, who can even guess what would happen then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 03:23 PM

I heard briefly on the news tonight that tomatoes would rise by 28% post a no deal Brexit and imported Cheddar cheese by 40%.

Now for myself I couldn't give a monkeys, a hiatus hernia means I cannot eat tomatoes and a lactose intolerance means I cannot eat cheese.

However unlike some posters on here I really do care about my fellow human being so I am appalled that such a situation, which is easily avoidable, is even being considered.

Now I know that in the great scheme of things these are "minor" considerations but not to those with limited incomes.

I do notice that our resident Brexiteers have yet to respond to my earlier post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 04:07 PM

making a bomb out of EU subsidies for his farming enterprises,

Fact: Billionaire Brexit backer Sir James Dyson's farming business was the biggest private recipient of EU basic payments in the UK in 2016, receiving £1.6 million.

Currently, the lion's share of the UK's £3 billion in subsidies from the EU goes to basic payments linked to land area, with some environmental requirements, while a proportion is paid to environmentally friendly farming and other schemes.

New Environment Secretary (Friday 30 June 2017 08:23) Michael Gove has said Brexit is a chance to get rid of bureaucracy and design a better system of supporting farmers that could better protect and enhance the environment.

Sounds a win win to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 05:28 PM

Mature cheddar doesn't contain lactose, Raggytash. Enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 07:12 PM

Gove's "better system" actually involves the phasing out of almost all the subsidies, almost all of which in turn comes from the CAP, within seven years. Farmers were mainly leave voters. They are soon to find out that they were the ultimate turkeys voting for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 19 - 08:22 PM

"No wonder farmers fear the Brexit wolf in sheep’s clothing"

Google that to read some stuff that should trouble farmers. Of course, farming helps to make the countryside what it is, and it's not bad despite some hooliganistic practices such as planting maize on slopes, drenching crops with neonicotinoids and planting miscanthus on land that could grow food. But farming, in pure money terms, is bad value. It produces well under one percent of our GDP and receives billions in subsidies. Once we leave the EU the severely weakened economy will ensure that farming comes low in the list of priorities for propping up, what with education, social care and the NHS also under severe strain. We've been promised many things by brexiteers that haven't got a cat in hell's chance of coming about. Subsidies for farmers are utterly stuffed, and Gove's promises aren't worth tbe paper they're written on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 02:06 AM

Gove is, I suppose, right that a hard Brexit gives us a chance to design a better system. But having the chance to do something and actually doing it are very different things. The government track record of designing systems to replace others that are actually improvements is lamentable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:19 AM

NP WONDER FARMERS FEAR THE BREXIT WOLF

"If we believed everything we read in the Daily Mirror we would be in a very sad way."
MY HERO - AN HONEST ALTERNATIVE !!!

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:35 AM

No surprises there then, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:09 AM

It really is time this 'fake news' denial is left to the White House and people who want to be part of this discussion come up with real arguments instead of meaningless reliable star bloggers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:25 AM

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/guido-fawkes/

So the heroic guido is to the right politically. What a clever lad to point that out! Hardly likely we, the educated, were unaware of the fact.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the%20guardian/

The Loony Left
The thoughts of Churchill on the subject:
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
and even more perspicuous
“Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy.”

Abraham Lincoln to the Workingmen’s Association of New York

‘Property is the fruit of labor; property is desirable; it is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise’”

You should adopt Dyson as a role model but no doubt the only way to eradicate the dangerous indoctrination of the left is by a complete brain transplant! Then you can all become embryonic little capitalists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:38 AM

No additional domestic agricultural subsidies should be made on top of those already in place. CAP subsidies must not be replaced until shut time there is a net positive revenue on so called savings on EU contributions after additional NHS funding has been prioritised. If it means evicting wealthy land ownwers and handing the farms into common ownership, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM

DMcG Few errors and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion

The participants on the winning side of the French Revolution   obviously disagreed, as also the American revolutionaries.

It really is time this 'fake news' denial is left to the White House and people who want to be part of this discussion come up with real arguments instead of meaningless reliable star bloggers
I quite agree, you should be ashamed of yourselves quoting project fear projections. They are all froth and hyperbole

You may not like the way he says it but you have yet to itemize any lies by the font of all good news Mr Guido!
Bias is intrinsic in any news report. Most of us learnt this basic fact decades ago, apart from ardent gruniardistas. But we all know.They are best ignored.

https://order-order.com/2019/01/29/malthouse-compromise-leavers-remainers-unite-behind-brexit-plan-c/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:54 AM

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks were on the motorway down to cumbria in 15 minutes. very sad that a proportion of our population think this sort of experience is worth nothing and that we should be doing our best to reject it. ..or - FFS- there may be trouble.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:59 AM

If it means evicting wealthy land ownwers and handing the farms into common ownership, so be it.

Required reading for leftards!


https://fee.org/articles/why-socialism-failed/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

Overall, we rate Guido Fawkes Right Biased due to word choices that favor the Right and Mixed for factual reporting based on poor sourcing. (M. Huitsing 6/13/2018)

Overall, we rate The Guardian Left-Center biased based on story selection that moderately favors the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (5/18/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 7/19/2018)

No need for further comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:14 AM

There is a photo on the Guardian of someone holding a placard saying "Does your MP think you are stupid?"

Yes. But he is in the ERG, and put a video up saying his reasons for voting to leave were simple: He didn't like the EU, he didn't respect the EU flag, he didn't like the regulations...."

All about what he liked. Not a word about what was in the countries best interests which may of course differ.

So I can cope with whatever he thinks of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:31 AM

"No need for further comment."
None whatever
If you respond he ignores what you say and hurls meaningless quotes at you (I counting three in the space of four postings) - infant school level 'debating'
Don't be part of it (he said after just allowing himself to be drawn in)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:20 AM

"Yes. But he is in the ERG, and put a video up saying his reasons for voting to leave were simple: He didn't like the EU, he didn't respect the EU flag, he didn't like the regulations...."

All about what he liked. Not a word about what was in the countries best interests which may of course differ."

I'm guessing he's either immensely wealthy, and became an MP in order to influence decisions which affect his wealth, or he's in the pay of immensely wealthy people (a bit like May's husband).

The ERG Group give not a Flying Fuck about the likes of any of us on here - even those whose tongues are firmly embedded in the anal sphincters of the Extreme Right - they care only about their own wealth, or the wealth of those they serve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:33 AM

Please allow Iains to continue shitting in his own bed without any response at all from us. He's done enough in the last day or two to get kicked out of this forum but we severely weaken the case for that every single time we respond in any way whatsoever. Ignore him or just talk past him. I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!

(And that includes me with this potentially self-defeating post!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM

Will do, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:56 AM

In my last post, I was responding to DMcG.

I no longer even read anything Iains posts - he has absolutely no interest in exchanging views and opinions in a civil manner, he is only interested in causing conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:05 AM

I wasn't having a go, John!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

I know you weren't, Steve! Just wanted to be clear for everyone else's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:23 AM

May seems to be gaining support for renegotiation - no sign of any of them trusting the people with a democratic re-vote though
Brexit is set fair to cause FOOD PRICES TO RISE and you can lay money on it that them who can will exploit the situation to their advantage - WHEN HAVE THEY NOT ?

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!"
Good luck
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM

She may get support for renegotiation: actually persuading the EU to renegotiate is another matter. But should they succeed, the only likely alternative from their side is the 'border in the Irish sea." Which I suspect most Brexiteers could compromise to, and if that is the only alternative to a hard Brexit they could get enough support across the house. The DUP will have voted for one of the main things they are against.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 08:56 AM

Does anyone read those posts?
..................
Yet again we get Theresa May refusing to make any change. Her idea of a new adjusted arrangemaent is where someone else changes and she stays in the same place. The Theresa May Syndrome needs to be clinically recognised.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." That quote is frequently said to be by Albert Einstein. It probably wasn't actually him - but it very much sums up the Theresa May Syndrome.

It's extraordinary that Jeremy Corbyn was pilloried over the assertion that he muttered the comment "Stupid woman" in face of Theresa May. It strikes me that he might as well have muttered "Theresa May", and it would have had precisely the same meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:22 AM

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case. Please!



Meanwhile the self proclaimed epitome of virtue posts the following:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 05:52 PM

You are a prize lout and a prize scumbag, Iains, as you have comprehensively demonstrated via your postings in several threads over the last few days (and over a much longer period, actually), as we've all observed. That isn't me saying that. You are self-declared in those regards. Your posts are capricious and immature, demonstrating that you actually need help - you have my sympathy. There really is something seriously the matter with you. There are far more decent people here than the few thorough nasties like you, bobad and, above all, Keith. You are yesterday's man and the more you open yourself to ridicule via your typically splenetic and vacuous posts the more we will ridicule you. I hope the moderators read this - they made a splendid decision a few months back to delete Teribus and akenaton from this forum. You are far more scurrilously negative than either of those. I don't actually care whether you are allowed to remain here or not. I hope that the thoroughly decent members here, including Raggytash, Dave, pfr, Jim, DMcG, Backwoodsman and Pete (sorry if I've missed anybody out) will do as I'm going to do, studiously blank you out completely. Do your worst, you big kid. You'll be a marble rattling in a biscuit tin as far as I'm concerned from now on.

Such flattery! Never mind shaw. As I have stated before I hold you in the deepest contempt as do others. After all being a called out as a"bastard" by a discerning member is hardly a ringing endorsement!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:35 AM

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:56 AM

A border in the Irish Sea would open a massive can of worms resulting in restriction of freedom of movement between different parts of the UK, which I think I might countenance if London could have a hard border with the rest of UK in exchange with staying in the customs union.

The only realistic solutions therefore would be to make NI a sovereign state, unite NI with the rest of Ireland, conclude that leaving EU is impossible, or commit economic and social suicide by just going over the cliff edge.

Sometimes I wonder if we agreed in a referendum to put rat poison in school meals then those who voted for it would refuse to back down from the decision if an expert inconveniently was to point out that this would result in millions of dead school children.

Being in government must entail working in the best interests of the population,(I would go further thatgovernments collectively should be working for the best interests of humanity) not in the interests of appeasing those who may withdraw their vote for a political party if they don't get their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:12 AM

Ignore him, Jim.


The best interest of the nation would be served by abandoning brexit. Brexit is a bit like the emperor's new clothes. They don't actually exist, though most of our politicians, as well as the feeble-minded leave camp in general, think they can see silk and shiny sequins. The emperor's scruffy old Asda George shirt and undies and old Woolworths jeans (a bit like the EU) at least kept him safe and warm and stopped him from catching a severe chill. Well they work for me anyway, though I must confess that I haven't been outside in the cold today...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:14 AM

...not in the buff anyway. Down girls...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 10:25 AM

Meanwhile back at the ranch:
Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough’s Labour* MP who was last year found guilty of perverting the course of justice, has been sentenced this morning to three months. She has become the first woman MP ever to be jailed…
The Tory hopeful is already electioneering for her seat. It seems a very mild slap on the wrist for an MP and solicitor to be found guilty of perverting the course of justice.(Huhne fessed up and got 9 months) so much for all being equal under the law!

and from the font of all things good. GUIDO

This is the order the amendments will be voted on, starting at 7pm:

    (a) Jeremy Corbyn – calls on the PM to rule out no deal while, predictably, keeping all options on the table
    (o) Ian Blackford – notes that the SNP don’t like Brexit, calls for no deal to be ruled out and Article 50 extended
    (g) Dominic Grieve – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on six dates in February and March allowing MPs to hijack Brexit
    (b) Yvette Cooper – suspends normal Parliamentary procedure on 5th February to allow MPs to bring a Brexit-blocking Bill in
    (j) Rachel Reeves – calls on the PM to seek an extension to Article 50
    (i) Caroline Spelman – notes that Parliament rejects leaving without a deal
    (n) Graham Brady – calls for the Northern Ireland backstop to be replaced with alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 11:02 AM

we just got back from a few days in dublin - very pleasant city. we had exceptionally good service in the hotel, bars and restaurants from friendly workers from all over europe. a positive atmosphere all round. we got off the plane in glasgow and with no passport checks

No passport controls between Ireland and the UK is by no means automatic, especially by air travel. I would say more than 50% of the time flying to Ireland my passport was checked on arrival.
Two EU members – Ireland and the United Kingdom – negotiated opt-outs from Schengen and continue to operate the Common Travel Area systematic border controls with other EU member states.
However, Irish immigration officers will check the ID of all passengers arriving by air from the UK and may ask for proof of nationality, particularly if you were born outside the UK. (Still current at: 29 January 2019 gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ireland)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 11:06 AM

"...not in the buff anyway. Down girls..."
Not the only thing that's "down" in the cold weather

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:21 PM

There Steve - he's made your case for you
If you wish, I' provide the list of his abuses that back up what you say
Jim

Howsabout some of yours laddie, you little charmer!

Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody
Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes
Jim Carroll - PM

Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM
CAN SOME HUMANE FORUM FAIRY WHO HAPPENS TO BE IN THE VICINITY PLEASE CLOSE DOWN THIS MINDLESSLY OBSESSIVE ONE-MAN CAMPAIGN. SOMEONE PUT HIM OUT OF ALL OUR MISERIES, PLEASE!!  
Still the same old, same old imbecility -are you really so insecure in your position?
For crying out loud, grow up and try to conduct a reasonable argument without the blustering bullshit - how old are you?
It's like trying to discuss with a truculent child

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer.
Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting.



Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Piss off you pair of racist pricks
Jim Carroll
At present, you are displaying all the belligerent thuggery and potential menage I associate with the racism you are displaying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 12:39 PM

Quasi-exciting stuff. The Brady amendment, which is meaningless drivel, is on a knife-edge, as is Yvette Cooper's, one that makes much more sense. Amazing, innit, how May has to hang on to every whim of the sectarian DUP and the back-stabbing far right of the ERG...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:08 PM

May's opponents in the Tory party, led by Lord Snooty, have been holding secret meetings to plan how she is going to be handled
Would you bleedin' Adam 'n Eve it !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:24 PM

The trouble with both those amendments is that both of them are about the UK parliament deciding something should happen which are completely out of its power to make happen, and which there is no reason can happen.

The Brady one is just about expecting the EU to do something it has repeatedly said it will not and cannot do; and the Cooper amendment isn't much better. Even if the Prime Minister can be compelled ask the EU to postpone the March headline when the UK is due to cease to be a member of the EU - there is no reason why the EU should agree to that, given the continued refusal of the UK government to change its "red lines".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:25 PM

They're holding one to decide what to do just before the Brady vote tonight. You wouldn't think there was a country at stake...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 01:33 PM

Their wealth, and their ability to continue to run their tax-avoidance scams, are their top priority. The rest of us can go hang, they don't give a FF about us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 02:02 PM

Stephen Barclay in summing has been asked three times (at least) what the phrase "alternative arrangements" means in the amendment the government is backing. After a series of dodges he finally had to say they would be whatever we could negotiate (ie no idea!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:42 PM

Faisal Islam(@faisalislam)
Go9d summaey from sky news:


Commons in short, so far.

We totally reject May’s Deal
We reject No Deal
We reject the power to stop No Deal ourselves.

Now voting to give the PM a mandate to change a backstop she negotiated that has already been rejected by negotiation partners.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 03:49 PM

So they've passed that silly amendment. More time wasted, more playing dice with the well-being of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

And the EU immediately responded in writing that the agreement will not be reopened.

It is all going so well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 04:33 PM

39 billion is a very enticing persuader. We are not talking about an
Ein Bahn Strasse.Now the PM has had her mandate renewed she can play a very strong hand.
Spiffing to see steptoe senior and his front bench looking as though they have been chewing on wasps!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:25 PM

So the EU will rightly tell May to bugger off, as THEIR remit is to act in the best interests of its members, ie Ireland in this case, not to pander to the naughty child who's thrown his toys (and himself) out of the pram. Mucking about with the backstop is tantamount to selling Ireland down the river and risking tearing up the Good Friday Agreement. But it won't be spun that way. Oh, no. It will be the EU being bullying, intransigent and inflexible. Just watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 06:29 PM

I'm going to be in touch with a mod when I can make a case.

Bully boy's at it again I see. The mods have him pegged.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:

This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May’s deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory “moderates” taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a “serious proposal”. Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue.

Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:59 PM

And guess who said this in the debate:

“One has to keep in mind and respect the decision of the referendum, but that does not mean that you simply say that you’re going to drag the country out on terms that nobody seems to very much support towards a future which on the face of it looks pretty bad. And that is an abdication of our responsibility.”

Sometimes you come across something that makes you think "Why is he a Tory?" I might not agree much with the first bit, but the rest is measured and good. Why, 'twas Dominic Grieve!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 09:45 PM

The Communist Party of Britain wants to Brexit under World Trade Organization rules. Peter Sutherland , the first Director-General of the World Trade Organization who drafted the organization’s rules was also an EU commissioner !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:00 AM

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party also has a Brexit policy.

It's worth remembering that the OMRLP has exactly the same number of MPs as the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:19 AM

One of the things at risk of being under-reported is that the Spelman amendment to oppose a no-deal was carried by 8.   

It has long been reported that a majority of the House are against no deal, and at first sight this bears that out. The margin is probably an underestimate, because May promised there would be another opportunity to oppose no-deal in February. Also, the fact that the vote was entirely symbolic adds fogginess: some will vote in favour of the amendment because it has no consequences, and some will not vote for it and risk upsetting the voters at home precisely because it has no effect.

But with all that said, 8 is a very thin margin. I am not at all confident that if it came to it, the House would oppose a no-deal in the final moments. There is something in game theory called 'The Tragedy of the Commons' (in the sense of commonly owned land); it is ironic that the House of Commons looks like it will be a perfect example.

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing. That the house voted to adopt the policy of 'Wait for the Other Guy to Blink' (even though this is the antithesis of #taking back control') means I think Nigel's prediction is now the more likely. If May comes back in February with nothing from the EU, the house will simply say "Ah, that's what we expected. Let's keep waiting, the EU will crack in the end."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 02:34 AM

'They' are heading for a No-Deal-Brexit, and delaying, delaying, delaying in order to fool the feeble-minded amongst us, when the true horror of what that means hits them, that's 'It's all the fault of the EU and their intransigence - they forced us into it, we had no alternative'.

But hey-ho, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Jonathan Redwood, Philip May and his clients, and the tiny, immensely-wealthy cadre who give the Tories their orders will all be very happy as they continue their tax-avoidance schemes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:19 AM

I heard Rees-Mogg going on this morning about a no deal allowing us to exit without paying the debts currently owed to the EU. Just shows how he works. Got a lot in common with Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

They don't get rich by letting money go from their greedy, grasping hands, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 05:31 AM

A bit of light relief

Britain to repeat its Brexit offer loudly and slowly until the foreigners get it

Well, it would be but for some people... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 05:54 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 19 - 07:03 PM

From Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:

"This new Malthouse doctrine is really the old hardline Brexit delusions in shinier shoes. It is the bluff that Britain holds all the cards, and that if we show enough contempt for treaties and economic logic, Brussels will be intimidated into granting favours that could not be won by conventional diplomacy.

There are two possible reasons for pursuing that strategy. One is stupidity: failure to grasp what the negotiations so far have actually been about and how May's deal was their logical outcome. The second is cynical vandalism: knowing that the plan will fail and hoping, when it does, to pin blame for a chaotic no-deal Brexit on Brussels intransigence. In truth it would be the fruition of Eurosceptic zealotry.

It is sad to see self-styled Tory "moderates" taken in by such a con and alarming to hear May indulge it in the Commons as a "serious proposal". Her next move is to Brussels, in a quest for something that two years of negotiation have already failed to uncover. But it seems the way to unite Tories these days is to expunge the period 2017 to 2018 from memory. May still acts as if Brexit is something that must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first, and only then shared with the rest of Europe. The British public is at the very back of the queue."

Couldn't have put it better meself. Just watch the machinations and the twisting and the lying to come in the next couple of weeks. The last sentence is instructive: the interests of the people really don't seem to matter any more.

You're right. You couldn't have put it better yourself. That doesn't mean that it is accurate.
May does NOT "act as if it must be settled to the satisfaction of the Conservative party first". She excluded the majority of the conservative party from any discussions, and would not be led by her "Brexit ministers". She presented the cabinet with a fait accompli at Chequers, in such a manner that made it very difficult for them to object (at that time). They were incommunicado, their mobiles handed in, and had no transport home if they left the cabinet at that stage.
The 'agreement' she offered them at that time had already been shown to (some) EU leaders, so the view of the Conservative MPs (be it Cabinet, MPs at Westminster, or the party as a whole) did not get a chance to show 'satisfaction' (or otherwise) with the agreement ahead of it being made public to the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 06:41 AM

You'll like this one, BWM

"Deluded" Boris and "unicorn" Raab get shut down on live TV

Looks like more and more people are understanding that the promises made are the stuff of fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:14 AM

It's unicorns all the way down...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:24 AM

Rafael Behr in today's Guardian:...............

Why on earth would anyone sensible wish to waste their energy wading through the partisan ramblings of a lefty media hack?

More fruitful to take heed of the ruminations of the Nation's leader!

Brought by courtesy of Mr Guido. The font of all topical and accurate reporting.



Backstop Alternatives

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 08:29 AM

On the more serious side, it does worry me that people are using the card game analogies. 'We hold all the cards'. 'We need to call the EU's bluff'. Even if these were true, to liken the fate of a nation to a game of chance seems to be somewhat frivolous to say the least. We have already seen the effect of Cameron banking on the referendum saying stay. Are memories really so short?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 09:12 AM

How Businesses Are Preparing for Brexit

Makes grim reading. Doesn't affect me but it will affect many others. My children and grandchildren included.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 09:36 AM

Interesting article from Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford) in the New Statesman.

Why the UK cannot see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid

A point I have made all along is that if the likes of Murdoch and Rothermere want to leave, you can bet your bottom dollar that it is only to benefit them. The author of the article makes the point

If people have doubts about my argument that the media played a central role is misdirecting the public then (and many do), well Brexit should be a test case. And so far Brexit has gone exactly as these newspaper proprietors would have wished. Three coincidences is a row? The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid while the UK stockpiles food and medicine, and the Prime Minister tries to blackmail MPs into supporting her deal, is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

I suspect there will be no sensible arguments against Prof. Wren-Lewis's views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 10:37 AM

The reason why those overseas can see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid ... is because those overseas are not influenced by the UK media.

Not quite.

The U.S. is constantly polluted by a tsunami of Murdoch pigs**t as well.

I expect the Trumpist f**kwits think Brexit is at least as good an idea as "The Wall".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM

Simon Wren-Lewis (Emeritus Professor of Economics and Fellow of Merton College, University of Oxford)
On 27 September 2015 it was announced that he had been appointed to the British Labour Party's Economic Advisory Committee, convened by Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and reporting to Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn.

No guessing as to which side he is batting for then.
Project fear by a professor.

Now the true story by the Gruniard no less:
Why economic forecasting has always been a flawed science
While accepting the Nobel prize for economics, Friedrich Hayek made an astonishing admission. Not only were economists unsure about their predictions, he noted, but their tendency to present their findings with the certainty of the language of science was misleading and “may have deplorable effects”.

This revelation, made about 40 years ago, is a crucial one and yet it has been largely forgotten or ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/02/economic-forecasting-flawed-science-data

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 11:46 AM

Brexit has exposed an unfortunate reality – that the media’s commitment to reporting the facts, pure and simple, leaves a lot to be desired. And while this could be the product of bad journalism and poor research, there is also the possibility that that its ‘research and inform’ function has been usurped by a role as ‘narrative manufacturers’. And that’s a big worry.

Why did some South Asians vote for a campaign that was, at times, seen as bigoted and xenophobic? Perhaps voters didn’t feel particularly European; or perhaps the Leave camp’s pro-Commonwealth rhetoric pulled hard on the heartstrings; or perhaps the supposedly xenophobic and racist elements of the Leave campaign just didn’t offend many well-integrated, South Asian voters who strongly identify with the UK.

https://unherd.com/2019/01/brexits-unheard-voices/

This rather destroys the narrative repeatedly thrown at us by few lefties here. Racists, Bigots. I rather think not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:02 PM

“the Communist Party of Britain, and its Brexit policy has exactly the same value as that of the CPoB - precisely Sweet Fuck All.”

The CPB has a lot of influence , Backwoodsman . The fact that Jeremy Corbyn supports and writes regularly in its daily paper, the Morning Star , goes some way to explaining his inability to lead a fight against Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:04 PM

Just on the BBC News App...

Brexit: Backstop is 'part and parcel' of the deal, says Michel Barnier - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47061650

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:08 PM

Mick, despite the Tories' attempt to make it so, Brexit is not a party-political issue. And if May had made it a cross-Party project right from the start, she wouldn't have been in the shit-pile she's in now. All the way through, she's had a policy of keeping the other parties at arm's length. It's a bit of a cheek to complain now that Corbyn and Labour aren't helping her out.

She made her bed, let her lie in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:12 PM

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project, but in my opinion, the 2016 referendum result would have been different if the Leave campaign hadn’t been supported by left Brexiteer groups such as the Communist Party, the SWP and Socialist Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:38 PM

Backwoodsman ,certain sections of Labour helped Boris J and Farage out. Dennis Skinner another left Brexiteer and Morning Star reader George Galloway another . I have asked friends in the Communist Party of Ireland -which bizarrely supported and campaigned for Brexit - what percentage of the vote did they think the left contributed to the result ;I have asked supporters of the pro-Brexit People Before Profit group here the same question.They always get uncomfortable and say something like “a very small percentage” , which makes them as irrelevant as you thinks they are . But these groups are not irrelevant .If there was proportional representation in the UK as there is in Ireland, I’m sure such left Brexiteer groups would have several MPs .Getting groups like that to at least abstain in future referendums or to leave the Brexit coalition is the key to overturning the disaster in my opinon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project
It may be portrayed that way, especially on this forum, but unfortunately the facts do not support it. That is why the left resort to constant swearing and insults in a futile endeavour to hide these self evident truths

"While referendum boundaries and parliamentary boundaries differ the closest estimates shows the following.
These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.

When you factor in the uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM

More "good news" :-(

Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:45 AM

A good summary...

Phil Dunn
10 January 2018 · Bournemouth

UK: We want a unicorn
EU: We don't do unicorns. None of us have unicorns, There are no unicorns.

UK: But we promised unicorns and the people have spoken. We want unicorns
EU: That's not really our problem. There are no unicorns

UK: You're being unreasonable. We demand unicorns
EU: There are no unicorns

UK: You are bullying us with your outrageous demands!
EU: Eh? We just said there are no unicorns because... well... there are no unicorns.

UK: OK! We get your game. You're stalling! We're prepared to walk away without a unicorn you know! (Thinks: that'll show'em)
EU: There are no unicorns.

UK: You bastards! Nigel was right. You're out to destroy us. We'll go and speak to Donald instead. HE has unicorns!
EU: Errrrrmmm, there ARE no unicorns.

UK: That does it. This is our final position. We want unicorns...right now... gold plated... fluent in greek....ermmm.... or we're off!
EU: Are you still here? There are no unicorns.

UK: DAMMIT! What about a packet of crisps then?
EU: Sorry we're busy.

#StopBrexit #ExitBrexit #NoUnicorns

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM

brexit is the conclusion of 40 years of tory infighting yet we are all dragged into it. it is the failing of all our politicians to stand up to the racists and old empire neanderthals of the far-right reaches of the tories, ukip and the knuckle -draggers beyond.
it is their failing and ours too - who have never got it together to rid ourselves of the tories and their deadening, depressing mind set. seems there will always be a large minority who will worship/vote for the toffs who love to despise and ignore us. flag-waving dimwits who have no faith in themselves or their fellow citizens to run our countries without the divine touch of our betters.

this is all getting me down - really, who could have imagined the situation where the likes of farage and rees - mogg could be taken seriously? what has become of my country? what happens next? i'm sure for many people this is an intriguing political drama - but for those of us who have to face aggressive far-right leavers every day in the pub, round town and at work 'traitor!' 'you'll end up in hospital talking like that' - where racist, anti-muslimism is the default position of staff in my organisation, sadly it is a daily problem.

we have talked about moving back to scotland where the air is more breathable or maybe further afield - just now i see very little hope for little england . we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally - we seem to have accepted our fate and will take whatever chaos our leaders arrange for us.

- for fucksake!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:34 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM
"No-Deal Brexit: Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border, Supplier Warns
Industry faces "disaster" as only root vegetables may be on sale, and cost of ready meals could surge."

I do like the way the leftards pick up on every piece of negative news about Brexit confident that everything they read is accurate. It demonstrates very clearly that they do not even do five minutes research on the subject.
Fact: Fresh fruit 70% sourced from outside the EU.
       Vegetables 30% sourced from outside the EU

We also supply the bulk of Irelands fruit and vegetables and export vegetables to the EU. If EU food to the UK rots on the quayside it will no doubt join fleets of rusting german cars denied their export market. Eating out of season produce is a modern development.Locally sourced produce is probably a healthier option, and far fresher.

It simply ain't going to happen, the resulting glut in europe will bankrupt the producers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:48 PM

we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally

The statistics totally destroy your argument. Read my post: Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Terrible things facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 01:14 PM

Talking of being depressed, it is depressing that so many government speakers are now saying we have now told the EU what we want, as they have asked.

No you haven't. You have told them what you don't want (yet again.) Even if the backstop were reopened, and an 'alternative approach' to the backstop agreed, there is no certainty at all that a significant section of the Brexiteers do not simply say "We don't like that either." The Brady amendment says they will support May's deal if she gets a change but Rees-Mogg and others made sure it was noted in the debate they won't have to. Thus neatly demolishing the entire declared purpose of the amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Pete. It worries me too but I am hopeful that the backlash is begining. We see the types you mention everywhere (just look on here!) But more and more people seem to be standing up to the nonsense spouted. If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM

"If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!"

Those ruling you have a mandate from a referendum, backed by a Parliamentary majority. The only nonsense spouted is your own and "taking action" sounds like revolution to me. But I am sure the counter-terrorism directorate keeps tabs on wannabe revolutionaries such as yourself and would nip any threatened action in the bud. This allows we law abiding citizens to sleep safe in our beds at night.

It is of course a public duty to report individuals threatening insurrection. After all it is but another form of terrorism!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM

Hey, just realised! Is Steve snowed in? Who can arrange an airdrop of Tuscan bean casserole and Nero D'Avolo to Cornwall? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM

I reckon he'll have plenty stockpiled, Dave, ready for when Jake Rich-Mong and his cronies get their way and we crash out on 29/3/19, and the shortages begin! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

Actually, I am snowed in, and the bugger wasn't forecast - it was supposed to bloody rain!!! Don't worry, I have all my post-no-deal stockpiles to hand, though I forgot to buy a ton of air freshener to go with all these tins of baked beans...

That was a fantastic post, Pete. One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate. It did not. There was nothing constitutionally mandating about that result, only the spouting of a brainless pig-molester. Like all referendums in this country it was advisory. And Theresa May only managed to obtain anything even remotely resembling a "mandate" by buying off a tawdry bunch of sectarian terrorist apologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

Lord Snooty and his pals? It would be like a comic strip it it wasn't so tragic!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM

One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate

Mandate:1)    an official order or commission to do something.
       2)    the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given
             by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an
             election.

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.

The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
"It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I rest my case!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM

I'll say this once and for all, not to any specific individual on this forum but to everyone listening. You can check it out until you are blue in the face for all I care, but this is the truth: ready?

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory. It has no constitutional force to create a mandate, no matter what any fly-by-night politician said or whatever any desperado in this forum tells you. That is the fact of tbe matter, the law of the land, and no amount of spin can change that. OK, maybe it doesn't make any bloody difference. But be assured that anyone saying that they are obeying the will of the people with no alternative, or pretending that the referendum gave them a mandate, is lying in their teeth. All constitutionally checkable and not up for alternative opinions. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM

All perfectly verifiable by checking the Research Paper to the Referendum Bill. The relevant section 4.1 states:-

"4.1 Types of referendum
This Private Member’s Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement on the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation is introduced. The UK does not have a written codified constitution which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike for example the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum are held is set out in its constitution."

I've emboldened the appropriate sentences.

The whole Research Paper to the Bill can be found here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM

Thanks, John. You can't beat the actual facts of the matter, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM

"Terrible things, facts!" Steve. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory.

and

"MPs have voted overwhelmingly in favour of Theresa May triggering Article 50, meaning the Prime Minister is on track to begin Brexit negotiations with Brussels in March.

By 498 to 114 - a majority of 384 - MPs backed allowing the bill to progress to the next, more detailed legislative stage.

Ten Labour junior shadow ministers and three whips, who are supposed to enforce party discipline, voted against triggering Article 50 in revolt against Mr Corbyn."

To quote your own words:"what most of them(MPs) actually do (give in to realpolitik) is wholly consistent. ..... why both parties "supported brexit" after the referendum. Any party opposing the outcome of the vote would be toast."

To quote myself(again)From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

There is a certain inconsistency in your arguments:
You say they(mps) work for the best interests of the country ...chunder, chunder, chunder....
But!
you also say:"Well the one and only reason that the Tory referendum, then Article 50, were ratified is that the steamroller was already in full flow and that any party which voted against either would have been toast. We call it realpolitik."

seems to me you want to have your toast and eat it, and furthermore accept when it comes to survival Labour MPs would sell their aunts!

For a man that argues the sins of nitpicking you obviously hope your dual standards will not be commented on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

While there is some value in understanding how we got into this mess, especially if there is another referendum, that is far less important than where we go from here.

There seems to be a widespread belief that we are far from adequately prepared for a no deal. Since both sides seem to be assuming the other will give up in the end, a no deal is looking quite likely. There seems to be a chance that May will ask for an extension that is too short to achieve anything in the way of preventing a no deal, or not ask at all. If the time is too short the only agreement in place says only one extension is allowed. However, that does seem to be to be something that could change. An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU, even though it of obviously the EU that decides what it thinks that is, and disagree with him.

Predicting what will happen next assumes people are acting coherently. So at the moment such predictions are impossible, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

"An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU."

It will be an education to see how he is rewarded,come the next election!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

Let me elaborate, as assuming UK MPs know what the EU regards as in its best interests is a common failure. They say that the trade loss, or the loss of the 36billion or whatever means the EU will give on on the end. But it is the EU that will decide. The 36billion is a one off payment. Damage to the single market that May arise is a recurring cost. It is perfectly rationale for the EU to decide the 36billion is not worth what they - not the uk - judge the recurring costs to be.

And this is only talking trade. There are other factors that the EU regard as important and the UK cannot decide they are unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

This fairly well sums up the current situation! (See what I did there?) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM

What voters in the UK voted overwhelmingly against was the creation of a federal europe, and destruction of the nation state. Two world wars were fought over attempted destruction of the nation state by German domination.
Federalism and the eradication nationhood is a well documented aim of the EU,publicly stated by both Merkel and Macron. If avoiding such a fate has a cost=so be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM

It is striking how Brexiteers have moved from 'it's all sunny uplands'to 'we - ie you whether you voted for, or against, or didn't vote - will bear any short term (undefined)
costs (unquantified) because I think we are replaying the second world war'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

Not breaking my oath not to involve with this poster but I think it worth noting that far from "overwhelmingly" this ludicrous decision was taken on a narrow majority which represented a minority of the British people as a whole - 'bout time this shit about 'the wishes of the British people' was put to bed once and for all
If what they wanted came into this at all they would be asked to reconfirm their choice now we have a government that cannot agree with its own party and has to bribe a sectarian party to get anything through Parliament, a people divided, a UK on the brink of fragmentation and major British firms doing a runner to continue filling their coffers by manufacturing their "widgets" elsewhere, including the Europe they supported leaving.
Let's see how many voters support Brexcrement now the implications have become clear - no chance with these 'democrats' at the helm
It is utter bollocks to claim that the voters who did support the decision to leave voted for or against against any of this.... none of these flights of fancy have ever been claimed to feature in their decision
Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward
There, that's my clearing the phlegm from my throat done for the day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

Quite so, Jim. Everyone, leaver or remainer, is entitled to say why they voted as they did. They are not entitled to assume that everyone - or indeed anyone - who voted the same way agrees with those reasons. For example, it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM

it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Well I do, and you are wrong!

"The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave). By far the most frequently cited
reason for voting Remain was ‘Economy’ (mentioned by nearly 40% of those who said they intended to vote
Remain)."
CSI’s data
Interestingly,
‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ has by far the lowest average rank, being ranked last by a full 88% of
Leave voters. This contradicts the widespread claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’: i.e., that people voted
Leave as a way of venting deep-seated grievances about things such as inequality, austerity and social
liberalism, rather than because they opposed Britain’s membership of the EU per se.
"Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward

Nonsense!!!!
The most important reasons for voting Leave was: ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters.

A crying shame that the more rabid remainiacs here have nothing but false arguments and bile to refute well researched facts. Hardly surprising many threads get closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

And now the Gibraltar problem raises its head again. All sorted in the Withdrawal Agreement, but if it is reopened, it is reopened for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM

While we're at it I think a point our Guido Brexiteer made some time ago is worth a close examination
"Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies."
This is of course perfectly true and the implications are that given the aim of standing on our own two feet, the only way Britain industry can survive in the present circumstances is by forcing wages down below the level of its competitors - textiles lap-tops, mobile phones and other electronic goods all have hit the headlines, but I'm sure there are many more   
SLAVE CONDITIONS
If our Guido Gatherer is right, these are the conditions that will need to be imposed on British workers - and as Maggie silenced what little voice workers had in their lives, they'll have to learn to bend down and take it
In the case of the industries we no longer have, Britain will have to buy wherever it is cheapest - I believe the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC of the CONGO might be a good source for our coal, but it might cost us a bit to keep the refugees from there out - as promised !
There - we've heard it from the horses's mouth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM

I think the laddie above is confusing sovereignty with globalism.
globalism(Noun) An ideology based on the belief that people, goods and information ought to be able to cross national borders unfettered.

    A socio-economic system dedicated to free trade and free access to markets.
It has upsides and downsides.
There is no question that globalization has been a good thing for many developing countries who now have access to our markets and can export cheap goods. Globalization has also been good for Multi-national corporations and Wall Street. But globalization has not been good for working people (blue or white collar) and has led to the continuing deindustrialization of the west.

Labor can move from country to country to market their skills. True, but this can cause problems with the existing labor and downward pressure on wages.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

Arron Banks and Leave.EU fined £120,000 by ICO

When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Well, if I am wrong, I am wrong. But if you read what I said, I did not claim that "giving a kicking" was the major or even a highly significant one: I said it was likely to be a big section. 12% seems a fairly big section to me. Of course, I am also not claiming those 12% put it in first place either.

But there is another complication common to all polls. What people say they do and what they actually do often differs. Polls often under represent the Conservative vote in Labour strongholds, because people there there don't like to admit they are Tory. You get the same effect in reverse in Tory areas. In a survey like that people tend to give an acceptable answer rather than the real answer. So the poll gives some information, but like all polls it is mistake to read too much certainty into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of "EU bureaucracy/sovereignty" was completely ignorant both of how the EU operates and of how little "sovereignty" we gave up. We have a big say in what laws and regulations are passed or rejected and we have the veto. The vast bulk of EU law is agreed by common consensus without the need to vote (though the vote is always available if required). If we wish to trade with the EU post-brexit we will still have to abide by a large number of regulations, most of which we have no need to argue against but all of which we will have no say in. On top of that, just wait to see the bureaucracy and the sacrifice of sovereignty when we are obliged to do deals with China and the US.

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

But the bottom line is that everyone was asked nothing more than to put a cross against one of two simplistic choices. Not a word, not a reason, not an opinion. A cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I console myself with the sure and certain knowledge that the fools who allowed themselves to be conned by the deceit of the Leave campaign will be just as hurt by BrexShit as those of us who had the presence of mind to see it for what it was, and who took the sensible decision to vote Remain.

And, when the Leave-voters start bellyaching when the pain begins, it will give me great pleasure, not to mention a bloody good laugh, to say, "Don't blame me, you voted for it, now enjoy taking it up the arse - you've got what you asked for".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM

They will just blame remainers, the EU and, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, BWM. Everyone's fault but their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

If you look at the BBC "Have Your Say" and equivalents, you will see plenty doing that already, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

Is that fact? whimsy , opinion or pure boll**ks?

You do say the most ridiculous things.

I notice blaming the russians has totally lost credibility for causing the leave vote majority.


When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

I dol ike a well reasoned argument. Yours, like those of many remainiacs, starts with "Once upon a time!"
Once again the facts do not support your argument! Worth remembering that this(data leak) was non-political advertising after the referendum – meanwhile the Lib Dems are still under investigation for selling data to the Remain campaign during the referendum…

and we had best not talk about Livingstone, or Jeremy Corbyn in 2012 saying that “yes of course” Israel may engage in “creating a false flag event” to start a war with Iran, or Corbynites succeeded in seizing control of Chuka’s local Labour Party in Streatham last night, or Fiona Onasanya. To name but a few!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM

Very good points by Gary Younge in the Guardian

Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values

Clip from the article

The UK making its own rules came a close second out of four (immigration was first) in the reasons why people voted leave.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU. But then again, I suppose nobody told them that. Oh, hang on, no one told me either. I wonder how I knew?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

I think analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation has more credibility than a gruniard hack.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU.
Is there some part of leave you have a problem with understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

I have looked a little more into that survey and it has some severe technical flaws, of which the most serious is they suggested the reasons for leaving. But it is perfectly possible the reason for voting Leave was not any of their choices. I have said before that the thing that tool me closest to voting Leave was how Greece was dealt with. There was a problem, certainly, but there were other ways of sorting out the issue.

Similarly, the thing which would make me most inclined to vote Leave at the moment is the rise of the alt-right across Europe, and its potential effect if enough MEPs were elected. But even that would be a complicated balance, because I would have to make judgements on how the separation of powers within the EU constrains that, for example, compared to an unconstrained UK government. I would still vote remain, I believe, but it would be a complicated process. And not something the "choice of four reasons" from the survey would encompass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU. The lie that the EU controlled both our laws and our borders was well established.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU.
No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement". Once we leave (if it ever happens) we will be able to put restrictions on those who enter the UK from the EU.
Otherwise why are some of the Leavers here complaining that leaving will restrict the ability of them (or their families) to move to, and work in the EU?

Some consistency in the discussion would help.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement"

Yes we do.

Firstly, non EU immigration has always been higher than EU immigration. That will not alter one iota.

Secondly, the rights of the UK to control it's borders are not undermined by the freedom of movement for EU citizens. I suggest you read the following to get the facts right.

Can the UK Control Its Borders if It Remains in the EU?

The complaint about restricting the rights to work and live in the EU by UK citizens is still valid as leaving the EU will make it more difficult. Not impossible, just difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

I can't help looking at these things through maths and formal logic.

Immigration is made up of two parts A and B. The declared government goal was that A+B must be less than C. Whether you can control A or not does not prevent the goal being reached providing (i) you can control B to any level you desire and (ii) A is less than C.

So if the immigration from the EU could not be restricted (which it could, but let's overlook that detail), it does not prevent the UK controlling its immigration to (almost) any level if it so wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

From the gruniard link above:
Theresa May, then home secretary, proudly stated in 2013 that her aim was to make the country a “hostile environment” for illegal immigrants. Since then the government has introduced ever more aggressive and intrusive checks.
Seems a spiffing idea to me, otherwise every Tom Dick and terrorist wouldbe invading our shores.Of course we never fell for that Schengen zone dreamed up by the globalists, that has spent the last couple of years unravelling.
In Jimmie's quaint world we would be demanding reparations off Hengist and Horsa, and William the conqueror, to name but a fanciful few.
We have a very thorough system for sifting those entitled to enter and those that are not. If the rest of the EU took the same care we would not have illegal immigrants crossing the channel in cockleshell boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"The Financial Times has truly outdone itself with this unintentionally hilarious article from Economics Editor Chris Giles complaining that the British economy has actually been doing too well since the referendum. Which is an interesting position for supposedly the world’s leading financial newspaper to take…

Not content with just being mystified by the fact that people failed to do as they were told in the referendum, the FT is now bemused as to why the markets haven’t done as the FT wants either. Giles bemoans the fact that “relatively benign economics has emboldened politicians to harden their Brexit demands and refuse to compromise” and declares that “it is now too late for markets or the UK economy to exercise much discipline on Britain’s politics before the scheduled exit date of March 29”. Translation: it’s too late for a financial or economic crash to scare people into doing what the FT says they they should do…"

Don't you just luv it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll

That must be a record. ask a question (almost) and complain, in the same thread, that there has been no response. I have not 'refused to comment'.

Jim,
Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM

"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:05 PM
"Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond."
Sorry Nigel - got tired of trying to get you to respond to anything ]
If you can'rt see a connection to what you said about uncontrolled immigration and the link I posted there doesn't seem a lot of point trying again
I don't agree with much you say but I would like a Brexiteer to make a case for his beliefs on

Sorry, that still makes FA sense. Nor does it give me any clue about something you have asked me to which I have not responded.

If you are unable to actually ask a question, and direct it to me, do not be surprised if I do not answer it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:30 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Ok then, Nigel. Nice clear question. How will exiting the EU give us back our sovereignty or reduce immigration?

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval and the borders have always been under our control. No matter what Farage, Johnson, Murdoch or Rothermere have told you.

No, the EU could pass laws without our approval. With the exception of certain items on which we retained a 'veto', the passing of laws was by a majority vote (or, sometimes a 'qualified majority' vote).
We did not (and, currently, do not) have control of our borders. We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders. We can only check that they are actually EU members. We even allowed this immediately for certain 'accession' states (where other states delayed the acceptance of these persons).

Clearly your question is based on a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:17 PM

I cannot be certain of this, but I perceive that much anti immigration is against people who look different that is people with other skin colours than "white anglo saxons"

Given that most of these immigrants come not from Europe but the Indian subcontinent leaving the EU alone will not alter this.

Given that at any time in the past 50 or 100 years the UK government could have addressed this "problem" leaving the EU does not change it one iota.

I have heard it said, quite vocally, in recent months that we should repatriate people. Well lets start with the Angles and the Saxons, then the Jutes, the Scandinavians, the French, the Hugeonauts, the Irish, the Eastern European, the Afro Carribean, and then the Chinese and Asians. That would possibly means there where about 1000 people (or less) remaining in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

Bearing in mind of course that the EU could never pass laws without our approval

Must be an aborigine in the dreamtime!

Since 1996, the UK had failed to block a single proposal placed in front of the Council of Ministers from becoming EU law.

The UK had opposed 72 measures which went onto the statute book.

"DO YOU remember the lively debate in the Houses of Parliament about new laws to regulate noise from lawnmowers? Do you recall your MP seeking your views about measures to oblige homeowners to have their properties assessed for energy efficiency? Or reading the Government's consultation on the design of desk lamps?
   That is because they are among hundreds of laws which have been passed in the past 20 years without any meaningful public debate in this country. They have been forced upon us by EU directives which are stitched up by the European Commission, rubberstamped by the European Parliament and then ordered to be incorporated into British law.

Now, the think tank Open Europe has totted up the cost to the UK economy of the most burdensome EU laws. It comes to a staggering £27.4billion a year

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:43 PM

Brexit has been examined mathematically and the proof has been solved
at long last by super computers and geniuses.


Brexit will continue to expand and accelerate as a phenomenon and a problem!


It is due to negative pressure, not positive pressure, as Dark Matters do


For Mathematicians - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYSWAlAewc

btw
The USA was very fortunate that Albert Einstein exited Germany. It led to total victory over the Axis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:53 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time

As predictable as you destroying threads on a regular basis by introducing your pet hobbyhorses that have zilch to do with the thread.

If you wish to dive off at a tangent why not discuss daisies. At least that is a subject you may have some slight knowledge of, unlike most of what you pontificate on..

For example:
"refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis. This has jackshit to do with brexit." Fact:The world's top five major arms exporters are the United States, Russia, Germany, France and China. Together, they account for 74 percent of the total volume of exports. Talking about Britain in such a context merely displays your rabid anglophobia(again!)
If you want to babble on about it open your own thread, and then you can talk to yourself

I do not talk down to you. It would be a waste of my valuable time. I talk over you, I find it more productive. Conversations with cabbages are somewhat sterile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:34 PM

Nigel, you are simply trying to perpetuate the myth that unelected EU commissioners force laws on us. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most EU laws and regulations are passed by common consensus among the 28 states and they are generally good laws that no-one would wish to quarrel with. In the event of disagreement, votes in the European Parliament may be held, and there are various levels of veto available, particularly for larger and more influential states such as the UK. Very few laws have got through without UK agreement, approximately three percent in the last twenty years, and you would be very hard-pressed to tell me about any of real game-changing significance. In a club of 28 that is very good going. And UK domestic law is our business and ours alone, as with all other EU states. I've said all this so many times on this forum and all of it is checkable, but do feel free to stick to your leavers' catechism of received wisdom.

When we leave the EU and have to rely more on deals with the US and China, just watch how we will have to accept different standards, usually lower, without a say in the matter. What price sovereignty and taking control then, Nigel, especially when you consider that we'll also be taking rules from the EU with no say there either?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM

It's no good presenting facts, Steve. I have already posted the truth about so called free movement within the EU and that was ignored. Maybe you will do better with the facts about the passing of laws but I seriously doubt it.

Never mind, eh. There are some advantages to leaving the UK government unfettered by EU human rights legislation and going back to the good old days of empire. We can start to shit on all our neighbours again ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 05:40 PM

We are required to allow free passage of EU members across our borders.

Seeing as you obviously missed it in the link I posted, here are the relevant facts.

These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.
First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.[3] The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.
Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area),[4] the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.[5]
Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months.[6] In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”.[7] Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society”[8] and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.[9]

Got it? It really is simple. We control our own borders already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Thing is, Dave, for many years, migration from non-EU countries has exceeded migration from the EU yet there has been little fuss about it, little attempt to curb it nor any attempt to make it a political issue. Migration from the EU, which has always been extremely beneficial to this country and which almost never involves immigrants claiming benefits (the opposite, in fact, as most EU immigrants make a net contribution in terms of paying their taxes), has become talismanic for leavers. It's dishonest, disreputable and utterly unfair to those thousands of EU citizens who make a genuine contribution to this country, unlike some of those Tory off-shorers, non-doms and general corporate parasites who are about to cash in on brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

You're casting pearls before swine, chaps. Don't waste the time and effort, the truth will become abundantly and horribly clear when May has driven us over the cliff-edge. Although, of course, you'll never get the Leave-voters to admit they fell for the BrexShit-Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:13 PM

Actually in some ways going back to "the good old days of empire" could have what would be seen by its enthusiasts as highly unfortunate. In those days there were no legal controls on unlimited freedom of entry into the United Kingdom on the part of the entire population of all parts of that empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:44 AM

True, Kevin, but at least we could view the immigrants from Empire nations as lesser human beings ;-)

John. Nail on the head. They will never admit it and that is only human nature. It is very difficult to admit that you have been conned as some seem to think it indicates that they have been foolish. I can assure all you brexiteers out there who are now realising that you were indeed conned that there is no shame in it. You were conned by the best, who have had years of practice at leading the public up the garden path and had the weight of the popular press behind them. Let it go now. Admit that there is a problem. It is the first step to recovery :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:06 AM

From the BBC - an indication of where we're headed when those wonderful post-BrexShit trade deals we've been promised begin to materialise. God help us!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119?SThisFB

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:14 AM

Yea but weer taking are cuntry back...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:19 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

😂 😂 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

Oh Dear! here we go again, more of little jimmies lies.
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain),

This is the at least the fifth time you have raised this pack of lies.
For the second time now you have qualified it by "possibly"
Teribus refuted your claims most admirably a long while back. Why keep raising it over and over and over again? Your anglophobia is getting rather boring.
Why not try posting facts? you may find it a novel experience. It would certainly be unique!
Your views on Arab Spring are naive to say the least. Try looking at it in the following context:False Flag

IT is time you woke up as to how the real world works. It is not a pretty chocolate box scene.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:49 AM

See my point fellers
His mentor, Teribus went though all the excuses - a lie, the licence was drawn up but never issued, it was rescinded, the order was far too early to have been used by the snipers, the bullets were the wrong size for use by the Syrian Army..... and several more.
His companion at the time in response to the fact that Britain was licensing such exports , ""all you can come up with is a few sniper rifles" - (his mistake)
The order for this ammunition is still on line yet these people continue to deny it   

Statement by Government Trade minister at the time
"We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records", he told a crossparty group of senior MPs. "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that"."
HORSES MOUTH CONFESSION

Keep out of this Iains - it's for the adults
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

Bloody Nora, Jim, IGNORE HIM! Cut him dead!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

I am Steve
I just used his crassness as an opportunity to underline my point about Britain being implicated in the refugee crisis up to their sordid arses (just as I am using your posting now)
I was brought up with the philosophy that "if a point's woth making, it's worth making as often as possible"
Done and dusted, I think but thanks for the reminder
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 06:40 AM

If he rattles on in his usual manner but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him. But not if we succumb to temptation and respond. That's been proven to be bloody useless in any case for a long time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 07:18 AM

Any reaction will have him creaming his pants so just don't do it, Jim. Even talking about him rather than to him is fanning his flames so this is my last self defeating post. Complete blank is the only way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 07:24 AM

Meanwhile, quite number of Brexiteers are admitting the possibilities of an extension, most recently Rees-Mogg. At the moment they are saying it is only for sorting out stuff after a deal is agreed, but that looks like a start of movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

The knock -on effect of the Brexiteer's use of populism is getting a little panic-making
First this fiasco, then the election of Trump (and a threatened conflict with North Korea), then the rise of neo-Nazism in Europe, Ireland could have gotten a racist President had not good sense and humanity prevailed....
Now we have the possible reopening of the Arms Race with Russia
I do hope they've forgotten to wind up the nuclear clock!!

" but with us totally ignoring him we can get rid of him."
I very much doubt it Steve
He is now using threads as a soap-box for his ideas (sic) and while he can he doesn't need us.
I ignore him because he says nothing I want to respond to but that shouldn't stop me (or anybody) using him to underline the crassness of Brexit
Will keep it down to minimum (off for a few days tomorrow - maybe by the time I return he will fall victim to Betjeman's "friendly bombs" along with Slough
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM

"Yea but weer taking are cuntry back..."

Good to see the remainiacs display their erudition and good taste.
Perhaps they should be named collectively as coprolaliacs, or better still banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

there are so many hundreds of posts on the 3 threads that urge us to look away from the forest (or consider a few trees in a couple of other irrelevant forests) and examine tiny details on the trees within it. it can be vaguely interesting to be sidetracked this way but then you stand back and look at the big, scary, pointless thing as a whole - and think.......them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 12:50 PM

.them tory bastards have really screwed us this time - eeeek!

There is many a slip twixt tongue and lip, and as yet, no arias from the fat lady! Alas alack.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Just announced that Nissan are to pull Production of the new X-Trail SUV from their Sunderland plant, despite assurances given to them by the government in 2016 (source: BBC News).

Clearly, Nissan havevrealised that 'assurances' from May and her bunch of incompetents are worth Sweet FA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:19 PM

I feel awful for saying it but the fact that Sunderland voted firmly for brexit seems to have a certain element of karma...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:34 PM

Some of us have been warning of such things for the past two and a half years.

I take absolutely no pleasure in saying I told you so.

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

I strongly suspect that this is the shape of things to come.

I wonder if our Brexiteers can cast a good spin of this ..........

....... but I doubt it, they tend not to respond to direct news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 02:43 PM

The history of these threads is that they will say firms expand and contract all the time so there is no evidence it has anything to do with Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM

2018/10/30

St. Petersburg, Russia — Nissan has started production of the new X-Trail crossover SUV at its St. Petersburg plant.

The X-Trail is Nissan's best-selling model worldwide and the key upgrades are a more contemporary exterior design, upgraded suspension, greater cabin refinement and additional innovative new Nissan Intelligent Mobility technologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:29 PM

This is about the livelihoods of about 7,000 poeple who work at the Nissan plant located in a very deprived area.

More project fear. There are no publicised plans to either cease production of existing models, or layoff workers.

Be nice if you did a bit of fact checking first. But that would not leave you too much to discuss, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 05:09 PM

I am reminded of the "Yes Minister" script which describes the four stage strategy followed by the Foreign Office: First, "Nothing's going to happen"; Second, "Something may be going to happen, but we should do nothing about it"; Third, "Maybe we should do something, but there's nothing we can do"; and Fourth, "Maybe there was something we could've done, but it's too late now".

It seems that applies to things like the Sunderland reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM

Meanwhile back to the real world, not the imaginary one dreamed up by the kidergarten remainiac cabal here.

From the Torygraph and you gov:
Jeremy Corbyn’s popularity is at an all-time low because voters believe he is “playing politics” with Brexit and can not be trusted.

The Labour leader’s approval rating, which reached its peak in mid-2017 after the general election, has been on the slide ever since, hit by his failure to set out a clear policy on Brexit, and by the anti-Semitism controversy which has dogged his party for years.

A poll by YouGov found that voters who had changed their minds about Mr Corbyn described him as weak, indecisive and out of touch.

Not what even the most deluded here would call a ringing endorsement!
It seems Joe Public is on the money, razor sharp, and staunchly Brexit.
Fine fellows all!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 04:56 AM

Good comment by Andrew Rawnsley following Oliver Letwin's speech in the house last week (in the event of problems after Brexit)

The Conservatives will own a nightmare Brexit and it will not just be Remain voters who will take their revenge on the Tory party. It will also be Leave voters. If Brexit goes horribly wrong, Leave voters are not going to find fault with themselves for being suckered by a bogus prospectus, unrealisable promises and a red bus emblazoned with a lie. Leave voters are going to blame the Tories for betraying them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

Nice cartoon in the Sunday Times today shows Tess the Tosser signing for a delivery of a dozen crates of champagne and telling the delivery man - "no, I'm definitely not stockpiling - they're to celebrate when we win"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM

Seems the Sunday times shows more contact with reality than the remainiacs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:32 AM

Nissan has confirmed it is abandoning plans to build a new model of one of its flagship vehicles at its Sunderland plant, as it warned that uncertainty over Brexit is affecting businesses."

Looks like those posting before were in the real world after all

Now for "Yes Minister" stage 3 or 4, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM

(Nissan)It acknowledged in a letter to workers: “Today’s announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.” the X-Trail is produced in Japan currently and Nissan said keeping production there would reduce “upfront investment costs”.

“Nissan’s announcement is a blow to the sector and the region, as this was to be a further significant expansion of the site and the workforce.The company has confirmed that no jobs will be lost,

Calling the decision “very disappointing news” for Sunderland and the north-east”, the Unite union said it blamed Brexit uncertainty for the decision, along with the government’s “mishandling” of the transition away from diesel.

Nissan said plans over other future models destined for the Sunderland plant – the next-generation Juke and Qashqai – were unaffected by the announcement.

Someone (remainiacs) cannot read or are doing a gyroscopic spin of epic proportions and reporting false News.

Awkward things facts!!

It is the union attributing the decision to brexit, and what does a union know about the investment plans of a Nissan?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM

Iains: you know I am one of the few people still prepared to talk to you on this this thread but, like Keith (RIP) in times past, you make it difficult. Nissan said:

"The continued uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.”

If you do not think there is any connection between Brexit and our future relationship with the EU, I wonder what you do think.

The final paragraph or so was nothing but invective.

I said quite plainly earlier that I do not like to ignore people, but if it comes to it I will. Kindly stick to the facts as you see them and drop the insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman, said that the decision had been taken for "business reasons" affected by rules on diesel engines and reduced sales.

The announcement that the X-Trail would be built in Japan was made in a letter to staff that followed a day of political rows between Brexit supporters and opponents over the reason for one of Wearside's largest employers reneging on a 2016 decision to build the car there.

In the letter Mr de Ficchy said: "Today's announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit.

"We have taken this decision for the business reasons I've explained but, clearly, the uncertainty around the UK's future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future."

I prefer the stated reasons given by Nissan's Gianluca de Ficchy, the Japanese firm's Europe chairman.
obviously brexit creates uncertainty but he gives 3 clear reasons for retaining manufacture elsewhere,
1)The investment required would be considerable.
2)Actual and impending legislation on diesel engines
3)Delining sales

It is newspapers and the union attributing the sole reason to brexit.
I prefer to believe the information given first hand by the company that made the decision.

The Herald six hours ago using my same data comes out with the following headline:
Nissan chief attacks 'Brexit uncertainty' as company confirms new vehicle will be built in Japan not UK.

If that headline has not been spun to the point of being outright lies then tell me what I have misunderstood.

You must point what you mean by invective.(insulting, abusive, or highly critical language.)
I will accept highly critical, but I would regard that as a compliment given for well researched responses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 03:37 PM

From the Sky news site. Not noted for any remain bias.

Gianluca de Ficchy said the decision was a mixture of investment needed for emissions regulations and reduced sales forecasts but added uncertainty over Brexit had also played a part.

Repeated verbatim with no need for further comment.

The article also states

Nissan has told staff in Sunderland the company will not make the new X-Trail there, as previously planned.

The production was previously planned for Sunderland and it no longer is. The European division chief states quite clearly that brexit "played a part" in the decision to move production. Brexit has played a part in loosing work in Sunderland. QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:02 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 02 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

Nigel
I'm not a primary school teacher and never want to be one
I have put a series of situations about refugeeism and immigration
I have explained why I believe Britain is part of causing the problem and a moral responsibility to deal with it in a humane manner, rather than keeping those suffering from problems we have caused out
I'll put it as simply as I can
Refugees are fleeing from wars we have helped cause largely by our need for oil and our desire to keep countries in 'safe hands' for our own political interests
We helped arm Assad and other despots at a time when the Syrian people, as part as the Arab Spring Protests, were trying to improve conditions in their own countries rather than be forced to leave.
We did so knowing full well that the Assad regime had a track record going back nearly a decade, of rounding up suspected opponents, imprisoning them, torturing them and "disappearing" many thousands of them (Amnesty presented years of evidence that this was still happening)
Britain licenced riot control equipment - tear gas, armed crowd control vehicles and other equipment which helped Assad fill his torture chambers and detention centres
It later transpired that he was sold chemicals by British firms capable of being used in the manufacture of the horrific weapons that were used on Syrian civilians   
At the height of the Homs massacres (possibly carried out by snipers trained with the reported shipment of sniper ammunition licences by Britain), some of Assad's leaders fled their country and begged Britain to take action against him, specifically by seizing his London based property and attempting to bear influence on his regime through Assad's English born wife
Nothing was done, the British Parliament voted not to become involved, and Assad's Representative, his Brother-in-law continued to enter and leave Briain as easily as he did Harrods, on Assad's business
The Syrian protests escalated into civil war and the absence of Western support led to the creation of a massive terrorist threat in the form of Isis.

Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?

The "control of immigration" that the British leaders are now boasting they are carrying out was a major feature in making Brexit the catastrophic threat it has now escalated into

If you have any evidence (other than Iain's "deny everything inconvenient" approach) that any of this is untrue, feel free to present it
Refusal to do so makes you a supporter of it.
Your starter for ten
Jim Carroll

Another long, and confusing diatribe. But I do seem to recognise a question hidden away in there: "Can you think of a single reason why refugees from that horrific situation we have helped to create should be refused entry into the counties who helped create it - Britain having been a major player?"
Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.
If refugees seek asylum in the UK, and it is their first port of call, we should accept them.
For all other possibilities, look at the UNHCR of 1951 and 1967

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

Neither I, not anyone in this thread, nor any newspaper article I have read suggested Brexit was the *sole* reason for the Nissan decision. Creating false arguments to demolish is not very respectable.

As to what was an insult in your post: I credit you withenough intelligence to work it out for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:28 PM

So we can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over brexit. There, wasn't that easy? No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws. And you can bet your life that plenty of other companies are considering their positions for the same reason.

My mum has renewed her urgings to get me to apply for Irish citizenship, for which I qualify. Must get a grip on that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Feb 19 - 09:40 PM

No. We can all now agree that Nissan's decision was influenced by the uncertainty over the future of Diesel engined cars in the UK. My mum is now long dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:54 AM

The decision, Stanron, was influenced by the future of diesal engines and by Brexit. Just as your choice for your next holiday is influenced by location and price. Or the songs you choose are influence by lyrics and melody.

It is not a difficult concept that decisions can be influenced by many things.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:00 AM

Nigel. Just a suggestion but it does make far more sense to create a link to another post or simply refer to the date and time rather than C&P the entire thing or whole swathes of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:32 AM

Hard Brexiteers say only way forward is to remove the backstop

You will remember it was asked several times during the Brady amendment debate what "alternative arrangements" were. While 'Malthouse' was mentioned, it was definitely not declared by Brady or the government to be the only viable alternative. It is certainly possible that the amendment would not have been passed had that been the only possible interpretation.

The chances of the EU agreeing to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement are virtually zero. Dress it up as you like, but this looks like determined manoeuvring to get 'no deal' to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

if scotland doesn't get her independence, providing us with somewhere more sensible and civilised to return to and you get your irish passport, steve. (sadly my irish granny was foolish enough to leave her kilkenny home to get born in liverpool. if only she had thought about me...) anyway, steve, will you do the decent thing and marry me. and then marry my wife - or the other way round. then we will go and live with our daughter who has just bought a holiday camp centre (14 rooms) in estonia for £20,000 (or 20,000 euros) and get stockpiling short range nuclear weapons and ibuprofen. or something. don't feel you have to join us there - you'll have done your bit for humanity. or insanity

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 03:45 AM

It's frightening how a handful of MPs who are more concerned with keeping their fortunes intact than doing what is right can manipulate the government into a situation where the majority of the country will suffer.

Politics is broke and the only way I can see to recover is a drastic shift in the way we do things. My benign dictatorship is looking better by the minute...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 05:00 AM

No need for any more clutching at brexiteering straws.

Indeed! but rational discussion needs accurate reporting of facts.
Regarding the highlighting of inaccuracies as nitpicking does nothing to advance a counter argument, it merely demonstrates their meagreness

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 05:07 AM

Sounds better than Theresa's deal, Pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Without either accepting, or denying, that Britain was involved in creating the situation, I see no reason for us to refuse entry to 'refugees'.

For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 07:52 AM

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined."

Could we have a link to your source please?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 11:54 AM

Er, and what about Lebanon, home of Hezbollah, then? :-) One Syrian refugee for every four Lebanese citizens? On top of half a million or so Palestinian refugees? They may not like 'em but they take 'em... Amazing how inconvenient the partial presentation of information can be, innit, bobad?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

Jesus Christ, Steve - don't wave the Palestinians in front of boobad, he'll launch into one of his regular psychotic episodes!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:33 PM

Lebanon is next door, all the way from Damascus to Homs. No surprise they take many refugees from the western instigated destruction of their country. Turkey takes the most, followed by Lebanon and Jorden.
Britain comes in at number 32, Russia at 35.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse. But they have given sanctuary to 1.5 million mainly Iraqi Kurds since 1991.
Those asylum seekers reaching the UK would have already made landfall in the EU and should have had their refugee legitimacy decided where they first made landfall.

"In the European Union, however, the 2003 Dublin II regulation determines which E.U. member state is obligated to process an asylum claim; if an asylum claim is made within 12 months of arriving in the E.U., the first E.U. country in which the asylum seeker arrived is responsible for processing the claim (after that, it’s the E.U. country where the person has lived for at least five months)."

Therefore it is no surprise the number granted asylum in the UK is relatively low. I do not believe the discussion ventured into a numbers game relative to the rest of the world, so I fail to see what point you are making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 12:56 PM

.Iran is not listed, but this is hardly surprising. To get there one must cross eastern Syria and northern Iraq, both dangerous places to traverse.

Lol.....Canada is slightly further from Syria than is Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"For the record the UK has given refuge to a greater number of refugees from Syria than Russia and Iran combined.

Could we have a link to your source please?"

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 01:59 PM

Derstinations Syrian refugees #

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:01 PM

If we took pro rata according to population the same number of refugees as Lebanon we'd take as many Syrian refugees as people who voted remain. There, back on topic!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Nearly five hundred posts about a futile gesture so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Feb 19 - 04:49 PM

How futile would a futile gesture have to be to make it so futile, it would be futile to comment?

I suppose its futile wondering about these things.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:29 AM

Tic Toc!
Not too long to wait now for brexit.
Dissent is a futile gesture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

Jeremy and rare moments of lucidity

From Guido, of courae!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

multi national capitalism pulls the strings

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:38 AM

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.

https://unherd.com/2019/02/how-parliament-disdains-the-people/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:03 AM

multi national capitalism pulls the strings

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 05:10 AM

Was Burke a berk? A lesson for our times.
Not to be confused with Berk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

I agree, Dick. Which is why alliances like the EU are important. On our own the UK stands little chance of resisting pressure from the huge mega-companies. United with our neighbours we have far more chance of standing up to them. Sadly, the little Englanders seem to think that we are still a world power. We are not.

Funny that Trump wanted to pull out of Nafta. It seems if you are a poorly educated worker your job may well evaporate, along with the tariffs. Just as in the EU jobs have shrunk in the west as EU grants and a lower cost base encourage relocating some manufacturing to the east.
Sadly the remainiacs think they know the cost of everything but know the value of nothing.
Globalism destroys the employment opportunities of the unskilled and especially younger workers.
Unemployment of those under 26 EU
Greece 44%
Spain 34%
Italy 32%
Croatia 24%
Cyprus 22%
Portugal 21%
France 20%
UK 11.5%
Germany5%

"Investor confidence has plummeted to a four-year low in the Eurozone, with a sixth consecutive monthly fall in the Sentix index taking it to its lowest level since November 2014. Sentix said Eurozone growth was “weaking dangerously quickly and strongly.” Meanwhile Germany’s investor morale dropped to its lowest level since August 2012 in a separate index as it teeters on the brink of recession…

Naturally Brexit is being blamed, despite the UK currently having higher investor confidence and the fastest growing European economy in the G7. It’s one thing for underperforming companies to use Brexit as an excuse for their poor results. It’s quite another for underperforming EU countries to use it as an excuse for why they’re doing worse than the UK…"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM

From Larry Elliott in the Guardian:

Britain’s pivotal services sector has posted its weakest performance since the immediate aftermath of the EU referendum amid growing signs that Brexit uncertainty has slowed the economy to stall speed.

The latest health check of a sector that accounts for almost 80% of UK output showed services companies starting to reduce staff numbers in response to a decline in new business.

Following downbeat news from the manufacturing sectors, the closely watched survey of services from the Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply and IHS Markit heightened concerns that the UK’s planned exit from the EU at the end of March would be accompanied by an economy flirting with recession.

I just love to give the brexiteers hereabouts something to scrabble about with to see if they can blame anything they can find, ANYTHING but brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 09:31 AM

Paul Staines, former bankrupt and convicted drink driver, or Edmund Burke, great statesman. I think I know who I would listen to on the subject of parliamentary democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Edmund Burke, great statesman?

In May 1778, Burke supported a parliamentary motion revising restrictions on Irish trade. His constituents, citizens of the great trading city of Bristol, however urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted their protestations and said: "If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong.
His electorate extracted their revenge 2 years later and he lost his seat.
It is noteworthy that he represented (corrupt)rotten boroughs for the rest of his Parliamentary career. Why was that I wonder?

A lesson some modern MPs would do well to heed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM

We still have our own "St Valentine's Day" to get through. It is incredibly hard to predict what will still be standing by the end of it. We may have whittled the options down to one. Or none. Or they could all still be around.

Or, perhaps, for some on each side -

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM

You have to ask if some people read the quotes they are about to post.

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

We could do with some more like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

and come election time his constituents ensured his ass was grass! and they mowed it most thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM

There is a certain inconsistency in the posting by remainiacs here.
On the one hand they argue an MP should vote (as instructed by the whips)as guided by his superior knowledge(Does anyone, other than a lefty, really believe such nonsense?) and on the other hand encourage them to lie through their teeth and deliberately deceive their electorate in order to be elected. They then try to explain away the deliberate lying by calling it real politik.

A reminder:MPs backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
Shortly after there was an election with both main parties supporting brexit.
The subsequent beviour of remainiac MPs suggests they will lie cheat and steal from their grannies in order to be re elected, and see no harm in betraying their electorate in many constituencies.

The next election will be a grand settling of scores and probably remap British politics for a considerable period of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM

They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM

"They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate."
As jefferson wrote:(roughly) These truths are self evident!

The link below elaborates a little.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/02/principles-for-reselections-and-deselections.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

At the very least, the MP is charged with looking after not only the interests of his or her constituents, but also those who are too young to vote and the interests of future generations to come. It is very common for the short term desires and the long term interests to differ. To that extent at least, the MP is duty bound to go against what some current voters might wish in the wider interests of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM

The transaction between an MP and his or her constituents is very simple. The MP is not obliged to cowtow to the wishes of the constituents. The constituents are not obliged to re-elect that MP. Every MP has thousands of constituents who would far rather have someone else "representing" them. And in no way can constituents regard their MP as their delegate. Naturally, it would be an outrage if an elected member serially disregarded their party's manifesto, but that's fine because the constituents have the remedy which won't be long in coming. Both major parties overwhelmingly voted for the referendum and for Article 50. Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion. As now, hundreds of MPs ignored the best interests of the country. That was a dereliction of duty and a kick in the bollocks for democracy. The undemocratic referendum campaign was the icing on the cake. In terms of knock-on effects, this is going to go down as one of the worst periods in history, and not just for this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM

You are right on what the relationship is, Steve, and that is very much Burke's stance. What I was trying to do was give a reason WHY that is the relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM

Absolutely correct Steve. For the feeble-minded amongst us who have the mistaken idea that MPs must do their constituents bidding (which would, of course, be impossible in most instances, because the MP has no way of knowing what his constituents' wishes on the vast majority of issues are) it's all explained in this piece

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM

Britain’s latest horror in Ireland: they’re talking about burying their nuclear waste in Northern Ireland.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/02/05/radioactive/

Surely Downings Street would be better?

Seriously, if they want to revive the IRA, what better plan?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion

Let us reword this in simple terms that all can understand. Many MPs put political survival and self interest top of the list when it came to voting for article 50 and during electioneering for the recent election. TO merely say they were gutless seriously understates the severity of the problem.
Having secured their sinecures by lies and a distinct lack of integrity and honour, they now are hellbent on betraying the mandate instructed by the recent referendum. Both parties put out their stands on the basis of honouring the result. Their behaviour now shows their true colours. It is a sad sad day when the Beast of Bolsover is the only MP in the house to publicly display his consistency and integrity. Many Mps have shown themselvesto be grubby little people. This will not be forgotten.
There are many quotes concerning Burke but it is as well to remember real politik. After betraying his Bristol electorate his subsequent parliamentary career was to represent Malton, another pocket borough under the Marquess of Rockingham's patronage. His latter parliamentary catreer was never legitimised by a proper election.
As has been pointed out many times both parties vowed to honour the referendum result. To betray the outcome betrays democracy and takes us into uncharted waters. No amount of petty nitpicking by remainers can alter this. Politicians rule over us with our consent.

If that consent is withdrawn whither next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

Those who backed Brexit with no plan deserve "special place in hell'


That doesn't sound as if May can expect much movement on Thursday to me once I anticipate it might be overlooked, it is the absence of a plan that merits the special place, not Brexit as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM

As Guido eloquently states:
This kind of arrogant derision from EU elites is exactly why we voted to leave in the first place…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

I repeat: his comment is against those who pushed Brexit without a plan. Not those who pushed Brexit in itself.

Do you think it was a good idea to push without a plan? If you think a plan was important, outrage that somebody said so is a bit confected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

A plan has to be there before negotiation. We are now at the end, or near the end, of two years of negotiation. The EU complains about Mrs May's red lines, yet now bandies accusations about no plans. At least one of these complaints must be unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Not so, Stanron. The red lines set out what you are not prepared to change in any final agreement, but not what the goal is.

A plan is how to achieve that unstated goal.

A plan should be there before you begin a negotiation, but it was not. That is why Tusk referred to a special place in hell for them.


There is no inconsistency.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM

The red lines indicate that there was a plan. In a negotiation plan details get altered as part of the two way process. If either side got all of their initial plan through without any change then there can not have been any negotiation.

Tusk is merely having an ill tempered whinge. Maybe he knows something is waiting in the wings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Red lines saying you don't want are no sort of a plan, sorry.

Someone referred me to a nice cartoon a while back. I don't think it was on Mudcat, but apologies if it was. It concerned two MPs trying to order lunch in a restaurant. "Neither of us want the soup, I definitely don't want the salmon and he won't have the pate."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM

Burke, by the way, was Irish - a Dubliner educated (in other words permanently resident during most of his childhood) in the Quaker school at Ballitore in Co Kildare; his study still exists there, unchanged and unknown to anyone except the two elderly bachelor brothers who own the house in front of the one where it's concealed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM

So now that Tusk acknowledges that the whole thing since calling the referendum has been in the name of internal political party division, when is he going to get his act together and make sure that the majority of the UK population who are caught in the crossfire are protected form all this. Whether or not he likes the fact, we are all members of an EU state and have the same rights as the rest of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM

Theresa May's red lines were drawn well after the push for brexit, during which push there patently wasn't a plan. In fact, she wasn't even in charge, and she wasn't even one of those pushing for brexit. You have it somewhat arse about face, Stanron.

And well said, Donald Tusk, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Here's a little song for you all (Daily Mail) to the tune of 'Daisy, Daisy':-

Brexit, Brexit, time to say toodle-oo.
We want exit, Brussels it's up to you
To end this unhappy marriage,
Although we keep Nigel Farage,
Just set us free
and you will see
We'll shake hands with a new EU!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM

Nice one Sen. I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM

Sorry Senoufou, not only is that childish, it's passing the buck to the EU for a situation that the UK has created.

The UK created this debacle it is up the UK to present a solution instead of blaming "Johnny Foreigner"

Having said that I'm not surprised that it was printed in the Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

Couldn't agree more, Raggytash. We are in a terrible situation and levity concerning the crisis is not only unfunny but also totally misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

It is only up to the EU to decide if the UK's proposals meet their objectives. There is no obligation on the EU to accept what it thinks is a bad deal. "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

DMcG wrote: "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.

Good. Let's go for no deal. The UK hard left have demonstrated their total lack of good humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM

I think you are misunderstanding, Stanron. The point is the UK *does* want a deal as expressed by all the Malthouse compromise stuff. But the EU is under no obligation to accept it. Of the UK had not wanted deal it could have said so something like 18 months ago and just worked for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Well Stanron, you seem to regard Jeremy Corbyn as hard left, and he has written to May laying out the conditions for a deal that he would support. The choice seems to be between this and remain. May cannot get anything through the commons without opposition party support.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Corbyn is a grubby little opportunist. Now all can see him for what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

An interesting snippet:
"Accordingly, on the basis of the EU's own view of what is legally allowed under Article 50 and on the basis of which the negotiations proceeded, the backstop in its present form is illegal as a matter of EU law. The Attorney-General of the UK came to a similar conclusion in paragraph 17 of his advice to the government of 13 November 2018. It could also be argued that the backstop is inconsistent with the aim of the Treaty on the European Union to promote peace (expressed in its Article 3) since it is inconsistent with the institutional provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and therefore undermines it.
EU law provides for a specific procedure for ensuring the legality of an envisaged international agreement before it is concluded. The procedure is set out in Article 218(11) TFEU and is regularly used."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM

Today's light relief

Insults by EU unacceptable, say people who regularly compare it to Hitler

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

Corbyn seems to be the only one looking for middle ground though. I don't entirely agree with him, I think we should just stay in. But he is at least looking for a compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM

Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who preached against the 21st Century European Empire to an Ireland asked to vote again because they gave the wrong answer in the first vote? The leader of the party supporting a second vote for the UK because they gave the wrong answer to the first vote?

Principles and consistency or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

For people supposedly in favour of Brexit, the Brexiteers seem quite upset that Corbyn is listing ideas for discussion which would enable Labour to support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

As Betty Boothroyd commented in her fine Brexit speech the other day

"If a democracy can't be allowed to change it's mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

Going on later to quote Harold Wilson

"Anyone who claimed that membership of the European community was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton."

There appear to be a few of each on here...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

I thought corbyn imposed a 3 line whip for article 50. They already support brexit, unless they have been lying to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

" they gave the wrong answer in the first vote?"
No - Ireland doesn't hold referenda to get "the right answer" it does so as the feelings of the voters obliviously shift - that way we got same sex marriage, 20ist century rights to pregnancy termination rights and are set fair to gain divorce reforms in line with the rest of the world - none of which would have been obtained had the early decisions have remained carved in stone
Europe doesn't have an "

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM

Whoops
Europe doesn't have an "Empire" though I would guess it takes an ex-Imperial power to describe co-operation between States without having Britain at the helm as such

Also reported that Britain's economy on the point of stalling thanks to uncertainty about Brexit and has so far cost the country £64.5bn since the referendum.
Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM

Wonderfully off topic as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

There is nothing in any way undemocratic about providing people a chance to think again about an important decision. "Are you sure?" Is a perfectly reasonable question. It's even built into the legal system when it comes to divorce proceedings, withered there is always a "decree nisi" before any divorce takes effect.

In analogous circumstances referendums on the EU have been rerun after an initial "no" vote in three countries - Ireland, Denmark and Norway. In Ireland and Denmark the result of the second referendum was that people voted the other way - and in both countries there is now overwhelming support for EU membership. In Norway the second referendum confirmed the result of the first, and currently public opinion on membership is still split down the middle.

Does anyone claim that these countries are somehow less democratic than the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

"obliviously shift"
Obviously shift - obviously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM

Well if you are going to bring divorce into it, how about this? In most divorces a partner who has contributed to the marriage gets a proportion of the assets on leaving, not a bill. The UK has contributed more to the EU budget than it has received. We should be getting our share of the assets back as we leave. Not paying a bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

Now that is argument of someone who thinks we have the upper hand in the negotiations...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

The EU had many children sired by the UK. We should let the EU keep the house and pay maintenance to support the children...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM

You people are weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM

I find the term 'you people' weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM

"Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco"

And this would be the self-same Boris Johnson who, the morning after the referendum, emerged from his front door looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights, with "Oh fuck, that wasn't supposed to happen!" written all over his ugly face, and who promptly shat his boxers and ran away when it was suggested that he should take charge of the BrexShit process?

He's a shameless POS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

"You people are weird."
I find people who make statements and refuse to reply to responses even weirder - sort of "none so deaf...." if you know what I mean
I didn't bring divorce into anything I used it as an example of how people are prone to changing their minds when the consequences become clear to them - not catered for in the UK
You ignore, your compatriot Nigel does a runner
He who refusees to fight, but runs away
Lives to run another day - as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:08 AM

Dissent in the Labour ranks. Brought by the illustrious Guido(of course)

https://order-order.com/2019/02/07/leslie-tells-corbyn-pick-phone-maduro/

You would think they would concentrate on Brexit,but with corbyn at the helm perhaps not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

More good news from the IMF.
"I'm no great follower of the economic predictions which the IMF is prone to make, but when it is downgrading so many EU economies (especially Germany and France) and forecasting that the UK is likely to enjoy the best economic growth – despite Brexit – we should listen."

http://www.cityam.com/272046/despite-apocalyptic-brexit-warnings-good-news-keeps-coming

Here comes the gold. Perhaps frankincense and myrrh come after the 29th March when we kick the wise(?) men of Brussels into touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

Bank of England have said that Britain is facing the slowest rise in the economy for over a decade thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

HAPPY DAYS are HERE AGAIN - DEFINITELY NOT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Happy days are here again?
Perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 02:20 PM

******* Becket..... !!!
See one of his plays and your glad he got stabbed in the cathedral
She's wasted on Castle though !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:26 AM

Just got it Jim - :-D

Lovely quote posted by a friend on Facebook (Thanks Maureen)

"“I’m going to deliver it on time,” she carried on. “That’s what I’m going to do for the British public.” It is scarcely worth repeating that half the country doesn’t want it delivered on time. They don’t want it delivered at all. At some point, in the near and far too late future, it’s possible she’ll work out she should never have pretended to be Winston Churchill, charged with some sacred mission to deliver Britain to its promised land. The promised land will be terrible. She knows it, and not only can she not say it, she can’t extend her emotional range to acknowledge that she is dragging at least half her country kicking and screaming towards it."
-Tom Peck in today's Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:30 AM

I was trying to post the link to that piece earlier, Dave, but I couldn't get it to work. Tom Peck says precisely what I was thinking when I saw that interview yesterday - the dead eyes, the grimacing mouth...the lights were on, but there was no-one home.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 04:18 AM

Thanks for the link, Monique.

Out of interest, I think you are in France aren't you? If so, what is the general French view of Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

Donald Tusk tells Theresa May that Jeremy Corbyn plan could end Brexit deadlock

What is the betting that May will not go for any part of Corbyn's plan and it will still be his fault?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

"Thanks for the link, Monique."
Ditto
One of the things Britain has totally failed to grasp is that it is their choice and their problem so pointing fingers and blaming everybody else for the ongoing mess is cowardly and stupid
This crass decision has impacted on so many other people who are forced to clean up after the mess that is Brexit and still May is demanding that they compromise to accommodate her - how insane can this get before somebody pulls the plug?
Britain is now an international laughing-stock alongside Comb-over Trump
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

I find it impossible to have any respect for a man who lacks the spine to admit he's bald.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Would that also have applied to John Wayne?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:45 AM

Reported on Guardian live:
Donald Trump is being urged to play hardball with the UK when it negotiates a trade deal with the US after leaving the EU, Huffington Post reports.

It says the US Department of Trade asked industry what the president should extract from post-Brexit Britain and the answers from lobbyists for big firms included:

* Changing how NHS chiefs buy drugs to suit big US pharmaceutical companies

* Britain scrapping its safety-first approach to safety and food standards.

* Law changes that would allow foreign companies to sue the British state.

* Removing protections for traditional British products.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 06:51 AM

So much for 'Taking back control'!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:02 AM

It is remarkably well aligned with what Raab, Patel and others argued in favour of in Britannia Unchained, so there is no need to delude ourselves that no UK government would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

It's not exactly a secret, we've known for a long time what the intentions of the Trump-led US government are with regard to a trade agreement with the Brexited, exposed and, in comparative terms, considerably weaker UK. And, of course, they will have us firmly by the testicles.

And still, the Brexshiteers blunder on towards the brink...the extent of their idiocy is breathtaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:57 AM

The US's desire for laws making it okay for companies to sue states is nothing new: I think this was a possibility within the EU. And of course they were lobbying the EU on similar terms, which was one argument I heard in favour of coming out.

What do we want with their stuff anyway? Odd bit of good music, what else is there? Spam like in the war? Suppose it might come to that though :(

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/07/disaster-capitalists-no-deal-brexit-environment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM

Good bit on disaster capitalists hoping to cash in on post-Brexit bonfire of the health and safety and environmental regs in the Grauniad:

The only problem is that it is an article from a rabid leftwing newspaper desperate to peddle anything that makes a case for resisting Brexit. It is purely conjecture and the articles author, Mr Monbiot is a treehugger of some repute, so impartiality when reporting is hardly one of his fortes.
I also think the entire subject of rolling back safety standards is simply a canard.

From my own experience the safety culture in the oil industry is virtually identical worldwide. Much of the present safety regime stems directly from the UK Piper Alpha disaster and resulting public enquiry. I would suggest that winding back safety legislation is far more difficult than introducing it. Do you seriously believe safety regimes in industry would be rolled back without the workers having some say in the matter?

More project fear I am afraid. Rather like producing economic forecasts dating from Dec. in order to belittle GDP of the UK relative to the EU. Better to wait until the government releases the actual figures for 4th quarter growth (due on the 11th Feb). Comparing GDP growth of countries based on actual figures becomes a silly pastime when comparing it to UK estimates dreamed up by the Bank of England. After all the Bank Of England has previous form when it comes to producing hopelessly incorrect estimates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:52 AM

The regulations people seem to be focused on are things like food standards, which do vary greatly all over the world. If you don't think Monbiot is suitable, look at the Huffington Post article. Or better still the original documents sent to the US government. They are not hard to find ("Negotiating Objectives for a U.S.-United Kingdom Trade Agrement")

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:56 AM

The only oil I eat is extra virgin olive oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM

Whale oil beef hooked!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

If anyone is in any doubt as to the fact that the Tories created this fuck up, listen to one of your own

Baroness Warsi on Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM

I see the link is through farcebook. Says it all really!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

??????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 12:42 PM

Farage forming a new political party. From Guido the leading source of news on brexit.

!!!!!!!
Cannot wait for the new show to hit the road!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 01:03 PM

That Farage and others have registered a new party named "Brexit" has been widely reported. That is, I think, a Project Fear worthy of the name. It is quite possible that the party gathers a lot of those in search of The One True Brexit, and like all single issue parties it will probably be very reticent on what else it stands for. It could highly dangerous and will feed on the resentments over Brexit whatever the outcome. We need to be very alert to the risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:29 PM

For those incapable of following links to videos, here is a transcript of Barroness Warsi's interview in The Independent

States early on

The peer, who served in a number of roles under David Cameron when he was Prime Minister, admitted that the EU referendum was held to keep the Conservative Party together and insufficient plans were made for Britain voting to leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 05:57 PM

A piece from The New Statesman carefully explaining the nature of the Abusive Relationship the UK now has with the EU, brought about by the shameful behaviour of Brexiteers, and their ridiculous word-twisting and over-reaction to Mr. Tusk's 'special place in Hell' comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 02:59 AM

Jonn Elledge is spot on with his analysys, BWM. Trouble is, he refers to EU countries such as France and Germany as allies and our rabid brexiteers don't like that. They will remind you about WW1 and WW2. When you point out that we allied ourselves with France and Belgium in those conflicts they will remind you about Agincourt. When you remind them that we were allied with The Low Countries in the 100 years war they will probably struggle unless they can dredge up some sea battles with the Dutch. Chances are they will just call you a traitor and collaborator and say that even if we are not at war with them, we should be. After all, they are European, eat babies and want to shag your wife. And that's before they start on the New Statesman being a communist mouthpiece for Soviet domination ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:31 AM

I like the cut of his jib!


https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/17356118.letter-mps-will-be-finished-if-they-go-back-on-brexit/

No wishy washy signs of appeasement from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:44 AM

It seems the contract with the Ferry Company With No Ships has been cancelled. But I was struck by the curious phrase 'no taxpayer money has been paid'. Surely the more natural phrase would be 'no money has been paid' which obviously includes the former phrase. As it is, the phrase suggests money has been paid, but not directly attributable to current taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...
Jolly good distraction techniques to divert attention from labour. They have many problems.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/luciana-berger-labour-members-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

I think it more likely money has come out of some government fund that is not directly related to current taxpayers, but is of course (after sufficient back and forth between accounts and departments and relabelling) still ultimately from either the current taxpayers or, via debt, from future taxpayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

I see Grayling has cancelled the ferry contract awarded to the firm with no boats. That seems like sound policy to me. I applaud them for seeing sense on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:07 AM

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money
What moron hands out a massive amounbt of cash to a shipping line with no ships and no lace to land them if they had them ?
Sums up the standards of our politicians perfectly in my opinion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money

Typical unfocused un-researched kneejerk reaction.

No tax payers money was involved has been very clearly stated by all sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Awkward things facts!


Ferry firm will get no moneuy upfront

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Whether taxpayers money is involved depends on who you believe, who you count as a taxpayer and how you apportion costs. Here is a different viewpoint:


Keeping the site open is costing local taxpayers £7,224 a day, according to a local source, and the council – which has already spent months in fruitless negotiations with Seaborne – had proposed shutting it down to help balance the books.

The DfT persuaded the council to keep it open, claiming that talks with Seaborne were at an “advanced stage”, according to Paul Messenger, a local Conservative councillor.

He said the port was costing about £2m a year: “That’s why we haven’t got any road sweepers, that’s why we haven’t got any public lavatories.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM

LAID OUT SO FAR TO MAKE UP FOR BREXIT LOSSES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.

Does that mean that everyone who worked on the contract tendering process did so without pay, that all the office space and on costs were free .......... together with all the other associated costs.






Mind you some people seem to believe in Unicorns too!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:52 AM

"I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place."

Apologies - I omitted 'incompetent' from the above in error. Should say, "I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving, incompetent twunts in the first place".

Grayling must qualify for the title 'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:00 PM


I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.

In normal circumstance I would agree, Raggy. Any competent business drawing up such a contract would include all sorts of penalty clauses to do with cancellation.

However, this company was the one using pizza delivery t&c's, so it is believable they *were* that incompetent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM

"'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'."
Puts him first in line as next leader of the Tory Party I would think
Can't think of anybody more qualified - can anybody ?
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

Even Pizza delivery has on costs!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

I suppose it is only right that a folk music site should encompass the noble art of pin dancing, as exemplified above.
Meanwhile tic toc!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

St Jeremy of the allotment is having his wings singed in the press today.Even the Guardian/Observer has this to say:
Corbyn’s leadership is under withering fire. He is attacked, again, for a perceived failure to effectively combat antisemitism within the party, in the case of Wavertree MP Luciana Berger. His support for Venezuela’s discredited socialist experiment has drawn more fire. He faces threats from a number of MPs to quit the party altogether. And on Brexit, to date, he has been, at best, ambivalent about following stated conference policy and, at worst, duplicitous.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686593/Jeremy-Corbyns-40-years-plots-lies-intimidation-chaos.html
Jeremy Corbyn's 40 years of plots, lies, intimidation and chaos: Chilling biography tells how Labour leader followed Lenin and Trotsky's bloody footprint - seize power, purge moderates, crush dissent and leave the dirty work to others

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/09/no-wonder-feminists-have-had-enough-jeremy-corbyn-fellow-brocialists/

Seems a concerted effort to highlight the chappie's failings. It rather destroys the credibility of the doyen? of the left. Perhaps the movers and shakers are fed up with his endless posturing, especially with a potential split in the offing. I wonder if those responsible have been learning from the Democrats mistakes? Their engineered takedown is turning into a fiasco.
Interesting times!.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Interesting new idea afoot according to the Guardian website. Parliament could be asked to accept May's deal on condition that there would then be a referendum with a simple choice, May's deal or remain. I can see that gaining ground. Not keen meself. I don't like referendums and I think I that May's deal is a terrible idea. The temptation could be that it's likely to be the only way to break the deadlock, and there would be no objection from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

It is an interesting idea. I doubt, though, that a referendum without a 'no-deal' option would be approved by Parliament. The Brexiteers would demand it, and few politicians will be prepared to sign up for something the Mail & co will present as 'defying the will of the people', however dubious such an assertion might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

As a recent survey showed that many people thought that no deal meant remain, having both no deal and remain as a choice would just confuse them.

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Now that is a topic and a half! Best kept off this thread, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Best kept off this thread, though.
Yes indeed,otherwise the educational failings of remainiacs might rise to the fore!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies facing a backlash in the next election for failing to cowtow to "the will of the people." Pardon me for being cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

It is the will of the people elects them. They either pay attention, or find alternative employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The simplest way to keep it off the referendum is to recognise that Parliament has already voted a week or two against a no deal. But I share your cynicism, Steve: it could be voted against as you suggest because of that fear, or amended to add a no deal because of that selfsame fear. Or call it self interest if you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

Steve: "We're told that almost no-one wants no-deal"

That's the problem. Some people just believe what they are told.
When Cameron suggested a referendum I'm sure he was told Remain would win it. People on this site seemed to think it was a forgone conclusion. The reality was something different.

If you were to say that "very few MPs want no-deal" then you may well be correct. But the majority of MPs (apparently) favoured Remain anyway, so that would not stretch credibility.
What the people of the country want in the current situation has yet to be tested, but the latest referendum is still the 2016 one, and a majority (of those who voted) voted to leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM

Nitpicking once again Nigel.

Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.

I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

I would have hoped that after over two and a half years you may have been able to come up with some things to make me think that Brexit may have some beneficial outcomes for the UK.

Sadly I'm still awaiting such .............

Over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

I do like the way remainiacs like to ignore an adherence to facts by dismissing it as nitpicking. This same wilful disregard for reality is of course the reason Labour, when in power, always makes such a shambles of the economy. However we are quite safe. Under the realm of Corbyn labour can only wilt.No one, but no one, would trust him as PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:02 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM


The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal.

For the record, as that sentence was explicitly directed to me, it is worth noting I read it in the sense I believe it was intended - that the 'almost no-one' related to the people in Parliament already referenced in the sentence. That the content of the universal can be interpreted in different ways is beside the point, common to almost every sentence in English using universals and, yes, nit-picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM

cross-posted there, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Cheers, DMcG. As we used to say oop north, you'll never see what I'll buy you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

I THINK CORBYN WOULD BE A GOOD PRIME MINISTER

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

I think the Tories are frightened of him

Why 15-page Jeremy Corbyn 'hatchet job' shows Tories are taking him seriously

He must be doing something right.

But if course all of this is just to take the heat of the complete cock up they have made over brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

Oh, and into the valley of death ride the...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:42 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.

Yes, but if your comments were allowed to ride we would be accepting that "almost no-one wants no-deal". If you wish to clarify the comment, then do so.
I may be alone in expecting people to be clear in their meanings.
If, as an ex-teacher, you are unable to accurately formulate your comments, that is your problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM
Nitpicking once again Nigel.
Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.
I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

Requiring accuracy in the intentions of posters is not 'nitpicking', but if that is the best you can do to answer criticism of previous comments I will accept that you cannot add to the discussion.

As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU (to protect their own providers) but you have obviously either not read those comments, or chosen to ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:55 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Good night.
I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution.

If the best you can do is use insulting names, and avoid discussing the matter in hand, clearly you have learnt from your pupils, rather than the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM


As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not explored that here because it requires quite elaborate and disputed economics. The ERG's favourite economist, Professor Minton, advocates getting rid of tariffs entirely, and is quite content that theis would lead to the demise of UK farming etc. Which, since it limits our options, is actually quite bad in terms of sovereignty as we would be limited to picking between whatever deals others would be prepared to offer. Almost everyone else thinks letting our local farming collapse is a really bad idea. Some people argue that lowering tariffs leaves more money in people's pockets, which is a good thing. But if they can only spend it on foreign goods that is a net flow of resources out of the country, which is not a good thing at all.

I may be the only person in world who thinks this, but it seems credible to me that if we want to reduce climate change we need to encourage people to buy locally and that tariffs on imports will eventually be one of the tools we use to help manage this.

So: I regard reduction of tariffs not as a 'good' but as 'uncertain benefit'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:28 AM

By "almost everyone else" I of course meant "almost every other economist." I am sure a lot of people who are not economists think it as well, but it was the former I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

Corbyn has become a figure of hate and fear for the establishment
If he wasn't he'd be ignored - now he is being targetted by extremist foreign government who have attempted to infiltrate British politics in order to smear him and halt his growing influence - cant wait till Trump tries to build another wall to keep him out
He must be doing something right (or do I mean 'left'?)
   
Nigel
"I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution."
Just as you have forgotten to respond to answers to your questions
You asked, I answered - the rest is silence......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

If tariffs drop the only people who will benefit will be the ones current!y making profits. The importer will benefjt, the wholesaler, the retailer but when we get down to the consumer you can get that the price will remain the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

I find it useful to put such quotes in context. From the same Guardian article we have the gem:
Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions.

A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.
Forecasting is more an art than a science. Why else did all the referendum forecasts become so unglued?
Statistically to be fed up with, and ignore experts, keeps a person in closer touch with reality.
I wonder how true this would be for the religion of climate change?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:58 AM


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.

True. But it would be irrational to then only eat salt...


Economists predictions are one factor among many to take into account. That the evidence says they are bad at predicting recessions does not means they should be disregarded in general. Babies and bathwater, as the saying has it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

UK economic growth slowest since 2012

We were asked earlier to wait for these figures before saying the growth was poor. We have done so.

"Ben Brettell, senior economist, at Hargreaves Lansdown said "There's little doubt Brexit uncertainty is responsible for the disappointing figures, though concerns over global trade will have also played a part."

Come now, you under-estimate the world class doubters you are delaying with. They are experts at doubting such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Well in theory the 4th quarter GDP results are due today. Then we can see how far up the garden path Carney has taken us with his growth? estimates.
It is worth pointing out that Germany is expected to avoid an official recession by the skin of its teeth(results 14/02)
You need the big picture in order to draw meaningful conclusions,and in much of the world the favourite pencil out of the box is red.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Hardly a recipe for growth!


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/18/why-are-global-markets-falling-and-are-we-heading-for-recession

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

From the font of truth and accurate reporting!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/11/uk-grows-1-3-2018/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM

At least one MP can see BrexShit for what it is, and isn't afraid to say so...

https://www.facebook.com/242623503265050/posts/308298963364170?sfns=mo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

Before anyone says 'Facebook' as a means of dismissal, the speech is easy to find in Hansard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:35 PM

Here is ine of Corbyn's speeches. I do like consistency off a politician!

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/exclusive-jeremy-corbyn-called-european-union-be-defeated-explosive-rally-speech-19021129836

What a valianr brexiteer! But he ducks and dives and bends and twists and the message varies north and south of the river!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM

Investment down, growth the worst for nine years and even a Tory chancellor is blaming brexit uncertainty. And nothing happening. No trade deals and Liam Fox wobbling sweatily. Anyone for £350 million a week?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM

I'd prefer the bus. I do not trust fiat currency!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

The thing that gets consistently ignored by those yammering on about how being in a customer union with the EU gets in the way of getting trade deals with other countries in farflung parts of the world is that, when it comes to getting favourable trade deals, the UK on its own is in a far weaker position that the EU. It just hasn't got the clout. Much of the time it will be about knuckling down and accepting what is offered, however bad.

This is referred to as "regaining sovereignty and independence."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:46 PM

And the money we're taking back control of is ebbing away fast. And the borders we're taking back control of mysteriously appear to be unable to stop people from moving out. And the laws we're taking back control of will soon all be the same laws we'll have to stick with anyway (it won't hurt because they're all good laws anyway, and in any case they form a tiny proportion of all the laws the country embraces). And we'll have to stick to any new EU laws regarding trade, only this time we'll have no say in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM

Remarkable programme on Irish television on Brexit last night which included powerful interviews with Alistair Campbell and the father of two of the Omagh bombing victims
The discussion centred around the possible effects Brexit would have on The Good Friday Agreement and a return to violence
It finished with statements from businessmen and farmers in the audience (from both sides of the border) outlining the effects this fiasco has had on their businesses and possible future effects
Campbell, who I have always detested, spoke magnificently and responded to every question clearly and honestly (not bad for a politician)
Perhaps they should have asked LORD SNOOTY instead - better for Britain's image !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

Lord Snooty:
He is the blue passport in human form, the red telephone box made flesh, the Royal Yacht Britannia in a pinstripe suit; a reminder of a world in which traditional Britons didn’t have to apologise for being who they were and bow before the gods of multiculturalism, feminism and health and safety.”
“He is more than just the leader of a faction or a cult. He is also the embodiment of the average Conservative Party member. A recent survey by Queen Mary University of London painted the fullest picture to date of Tory members. Some 44% are over 65 and 71% are men. They think austerity has been a good thing. They believe in traditional values and harsh prison sentences. They love Brexit—and not just any old Brexit, but the full-strength sort, leaving both the customs union and the single market."

A fine fellow of a man! Naturally superior to the scruffy git Corbyn.
The eloquent Rees Mogg has very clear consistent views concerning Brexit. Does Corbyn have a view of brexit that holds for more than the next soundbite? Such a disreputable wretch!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM
Investment down, growth the worst for nine years

"Growth worst for 9 years". Isn't it strange that that period of 9 years (only) just covers the periods of the Conservative-led governments.
maybe the quote deliberately avoided saying "Growth worst since we had a Labour government".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

Isn't the constant attempting to lay the blame the worldwide financial crisis - caused by the recklessness and mismanagement of, in the main, US financial institutions, mirrored here and elsewhere by others - at the door of the last Labour government a clear indication of the fundamental dishonesty of the Tory Party and its sycophants?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM

And, more importantly, a way of not talking about the impact of Brexit and the negotiations for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM

In 17 auctions, Mr Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer sanctioned the sale of 395 tonnes of gold. Figures released by the Treasury show that the total proceeds from the sales was around $3.5billion. According to a Parliamentary answer, if the gold was sold last month, on December 15, it would have raised $10.5billifor you!on.Jan 7, 2009.

That's Labour for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM

"Growth worst since we had a Labour government".
Long since expecting a return response Nigel, but the statement is based on statistics not who was in charge and they are even carried by the Conservative Daily Express, Daily Mail and the Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:47 AM

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017

Talking of 'spin'. This administration may not have reached the 'high' of 2000, but looking at your graph, neither did Labour. This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

Cheers, Jim. You beat me to it in putting Nigelpicker right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Thanks Baccy
"Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph"
Now there's a typo worth remembering - wonder if we can look forward to a Westminster Fire like the Reichstag one !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 11:12 AM

As expected, no answers from our resident Tories - 'whataboutery' from one, and the usual nitpicking from the other. Clearly students of the Theresa May Method of Answering Questions - i.e. ignore the question and try to change the subject.

What a shower!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:01 PM

This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.

And blaming the Labour government for a world recession caused primarily by dodgy banking practices isnt?

It was you who started trying to compare the current Tory disaster with past Labour governments, Nigel. Don't start backtracking now just because some awkward facts have got in the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:00 PM

Who was blaming Labour for the global recession of 2008/09?
The comparative high point of 9 years ago (although GDP growth has been higher in between) was soon after that recession. The global recession (of 2008/09) cannot take all the blame in the fall of GDP growth.
In the link you gave for GDP figures from 2000 to 2017 there was a downward trend from a peak in 2000 before that recession hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

Past performance has sweet FA to do with brexit anyway. The current low has everything to do with it. Nice try at deflection but don't worry. You are not the only one who knows they are wrong about leaving the EU but is now unable to admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

In a perhaps vain attempt to drag people back into the present day rather than discussing the financial crash or Brown's gold dealings, here is something about Brexit. Remember that is what we are discussing?

It seems Grayling's statement that no taxpayers' money has been spent in dealing with the Ferry Company With No Ships is being challenged by carefully ignoring all the costs involved apart from dosh directly paid to the company.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:20 PM

The ONS has released its first estimate of GDP growth for 2018 Q4 at 0.2%, giving an initial figure of 1.3% growth for the year. A far cry from the recession that the Treasury, Bank of England and IMF were all predicting before the referendum…

Growth is sluggish across Europe, particularly in Italy and Germany – the UK is still comfortably in the middle of the road, with the European Commission itself putting the UK on a par with France and the Eurozone average for its 2019 forecast.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:06 PM

Past performance has sweet FA to do with brexit anyway. The current low has everything to do with it. Nice try at deflection but don't worry.

Good. It wasn't the brexiteers on this thread who brought up the fact that GDP growth is at a nine year low. So you accept that it is FA to do with the Brexit debate. Please advise your associated leavers of that view.
"The current low" is only a 'low' if it is compared to historic rates of GDP growth. If past performance has nothing to do with it, then it becomes pointless to discuss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:27 PM

Hmm Nigel. The poster said that the current low has everything to do with it. You admit as much in your post.

Once again (and again) you seek to deflect the discussion.


PS. Any GOOD news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 06:32 AM

Two gems from Guido. The man with a finger on the pulse:

https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/inflation-falls-two-year-low-despite-brexit/

Tsk, Tsk!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/robbins-reveals-dishonesty-of-governments-stance/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 08:06 AM

Ford step up preparations to move production out of Britain

Thanks for trashing our economy, prospects and way of life, brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 09:36 AM

No gain without pain!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:23 AM

Trimble has mounted a legal challenge against the border issue - another £billion bung in the offing, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 10:44 AM

But pain is not evidence of gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 11:01 AM

I'm sure the workers whose livelihoods will go down the toilet will be very comforted by those sentiments expressed above.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 11:17 AM

It's the true spirit of Brexiteers Backwoodsman, in truth they don't give a flying **** about anyone except themselves.

The comment you refer to is clear proof of this.

And the really stupid thing is that they don't think any of this will impact on them, despite their outgoings increasing over and above what could be expect due to inflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

And, of course, the Brexit-Muppets have still to tell the rest of us what this mystical 'gain' will consist of (apart from 'taking are cuntry back').

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

You want some good brexit news? Well yertis, courtesy of a chap posting a comment to a Guardian piece (the one about Theresa May's policy on mouldy jam):

As Rome burns by a Tory flame thrower; and Ian Blackford’s laser like critique of May’s rhetorical guff, Brexit pain is clearly for the little people only while the elite ship off and ship out:
- UK has rolled over just £16bn out of £117bn trade deals – 13% success rate, nice one Foxy, Geeza job, a’can do that….
- Anti-terror checks deliver fresh Brexit threat for UK hauliers.
- Targeted no-deal Brexit ads are funded opaquely, yet the government has failed to bring in new laws – I wonder why?
- The Dutch government has said it is in talks with more than 250 companies about moving their operations from the UK to the Netherlands before Brexit.
- As the GB pound tanks on the international currency markets exiting Europe with a no deal Disaster Capitalist are set to swoop on Brexit Britain and seize assets of indebted UK companies and Public Sector organisations.
- The UK’s trade with Japan will revert to World Trade Organisation tariffs in the case of a no-deal Brexit.
- The Department for International Trade (DIT) told business leaders this week that time was running out for Britain to roll-over trade deals with about 60 countries the EU has free trade arrangements with,
- Boris Johnson suggests that leaving the EU will allow us to dismantle green standards for electrical goods and environmental impact assessments.
- Iain Duncan Smith asks for the removal after Brexit of the carbon floor price, which has more or less stopped coal-burning in the UK.
- With Liam Fox is demanding the destruction of food and environmental standards as the price of the trade deal he desperately seeks with the US.
- Jacob Rees-Mogg has proposed that we accept “emission standards from India”. “We could say, if it’s good enough in India, it’s good enough for here.”
- Brexit Snowflakes melt in huge numbers causing widespread gushing of crocodile tears due to the heat from Donald Tusk.
- UK financial sector has shifted at least £800 billion ($1 trillion) worth of assets out of UK into the EU because of Brexit, with consequential losses in tax receipts to HMT.
- Britain’s economy is contracting – James Knightly of IGN.
- Brexit's vice-like grip is hurting services industry -Duncan Brock at the Chartered Institute of Procurement & Supply.
- Purchasing Managers Index (PMI) plunges to a 2 ½ year low due to Tory Brexit shambles.
- 200 000 British applied for Irish passports in 2018 to retain EU citizenship.
- Tory refused six times to answer a question about what was on offer to Nissan.
- Cold war plans revived to move Queen to safe location away if unrest follows no deal.
- Nissan shelving plans to build new X-Trail in UK.
- Government officials are preparing to deal with “putrefying stockpiles” of rubbish.
- One in three UK firms plan for no-deal Brexit relocation – IOD.
- More than one in 10 British businesses have already set up operations outside the UK.
- British car manufacturing investment plunges by 50%
- Food retailers now tell us we are 9 meals away from anarchy.
- Royal Bank of Scotland to transfer a third of clients and assets worth billions to Amsterdam.
- Barclays to move £170bn to Dublin over no-deal Brexit fears.
- Media companies (Discovery; Comcast; NBC) have moved staff and broadcast licenses out of the UK.
- Five of the largest banks transferring 750 billion euros ($857 billion) of assets to Frankfurt.
- Unilever to consolidate its headquarters in Rotterdam, and not in London.
- HSBC moving 1000 jobs from London to Paris, where it will set up its EU headquarters.
- UBS to move 1000 jobs from London to EU offices, including Frankfurt.
- 'May can no longer be trusted': Heavyweight European press condemns PM
- NHS trusts 'could run out of medical supplies' without Brexit deal. – Birmingham Hospital Chief
- British retirees in EU will lose free healthcare under no-deal Brexit. – DoH Select Committee
- UK personal insolvencies hit seven-year high. – Insolvency Service
- Corporate insolvencies are likely to continue to rise in 2019. – Menzies LLP
- European Banking Authority from London to Paris.
- European Medicines Agency relocates from London to Amsterdam.
- Moneygram will move its EU headquarters from London to Brussels.
- Dyson to Singapore.
- Rees-Mogg to Dublin with two portfolios.
- Farage to Germany with passports for his sons.
- Lawson holed up in France.
- Airbus UK about to fly out from UK.
- Jim Ratcliffe, Britain’s richest man, reportedly moving to Monaco for tax purposes.
- Panasonic moving its European HQ from the UK to The Netherlands.
- Sony moving its European HQ from London to The Netherlands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM

Yebbut weer gettin are cuntry back...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 01:48 PM

Yeah Steve, but don't forget - "No gain without pain", and "It's a price worth paying". :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 01:48 PM

Yeah Steve, but don't forget - "No gain without pain", and "It's a price worth paying". :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 19 - 01:52 PM

Better out than in!

The news from Guido before the BBC spins it into oblivion.


https://order-order.com/2019/02/13/eurozone-industrial-production-plunges-even-faster-expected/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 02:14 AM

A little while ago I asked Nigel in particular but indirectly all our Brexit supporters whether they were willing that their nearest and dearest suffer any disadvantages that may arise - I take it as read they are prepared to suffer any such thing themselves.

We have a case in point here. Imagine such a job loss affects your son, daughter or those of a close friend. They are worried about how they will pay their mortgage and whether if they don't find a job soon they could even lose their home. They come to you full of fear and trepidation.

Do you really cheerily say "No gain without pain"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:29 AM

James O'Brien's proposals for Brexit. The popular LBC presenter has some proposals that should be popular with everyone...


Proposals for a Germany+ agreement with the EU has garnered widespread support on social media after the proposal was put forward by LBC presenter James O’Brien.

The Brexit policy, which would be popular with both Leavers and Remainers and could even pass through Parliament, would give Britain the same deal that Germany has but with added benefits.

Britain would keep control of its borders by opting out of the Schengen agreement on free movement.

That means we could send people from other countries home if they couldn’t support themselves.

We would also stay out of the single currency, have the power of veto on matter such as Turkish ascension to the EU and vote on how our government spends our money.

It would also mean we have lots of fresh food and medicines arriving unchecked into our country under some of the biggest trade agreements on the planet, with a one-third reduction in the fee we pay for all of these things.

And best of all – we could vote on our own laws, with a court to make sure that British people and businesses are fairly treated.

As O’Brien notes: “That’s called Germany+.

“It’s also called being in the European Union.”

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:50 AM

There is now a constant stream of complaints from both the Northern Counties and the Republic, of the effects Brexit is now having on the Irish economy and loss of investment and jobs, the latest being from the transport industry and it hasn't been put into place yet!
The Little Englanders can hardly claim it to be an 'Irish Problem' - without D.U.P. support May would be looking for a job in the hospitality industry (except that's likely to take a HEFTY KICKING as well if things continue as they are)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 06:58 AM

"As O’Brien notes: “That’s called Germany+.

“It’s also called being in the European Union."

And it's precisely what we currently have, and what a bunch of bone-head, flag-waving dick-wads have voted to throw away on 29/3/19.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 07:45 AM

For good news on Brexit, google this:

https://costofbrexit.netlify.com

Brexit since the referendum has cost us between £440 million and £500 million a week. So far, anything between 60 and 80 billion in total. I need a red bus and a pot of paint...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

Now they've upset the Liverpudlians - bang goes the United Kingdom!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 04:11 PM

Question for both sides.

Just how many defeats in the House of Commons does Teresa May have to suffer before she (and her advisers) understand that her proposals are not acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:00 PM

She'll keep going until the small group of billionaires and multi-millionaires who are giving her her orders tell her to do something else. They want a no-deal BrexShit in order to avoid the new EU Anti-Tax-Avoidance regulations, and she will make sure they get what they want, no matter how much the rest of us suffer as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 07:54 AM

Apparently "one ERG source said the group was unconcerned about [the release of no-deal analyses] because the public paid no attention to "project fear" at the referendum."

That seems an unwise way of looking at things. He or she may be right in the event of a second referendum. But it will be a very different thing if one or more of the warnings turn out to be correct and those suffering the consequences know the MPs were told beforehand but chose to let it happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM

https://order-order.com/2019/02/15/eu-investors-considering-moves-uk-brexit/

Well, well, well!
I do not think the EU scripted that! Brought by Guido of course.

and for the infidels the original can be read in the Financial Times!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Help out a Yank here please: is Rachel Johnson trying to sat Brex-Shit has gone tits up?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM

LOL!

Maybe she was trying to make a couple of points...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Neil D
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 01:49 AM

I just read an article that said a No-deal Brexit could lead to a unified Ireland. The premise was that NI would better off economically as part of the Republic than as part of the UK after Brexit. With the last census showing that the Catholic population rapidly gaining on the Protestant population which is aging, it is only a matter of time before the Northern Irish will opt out of the UK.
Could this be possible?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:42 AM

I think the position of Northern Ireland after Brexit will probably be a factor in any eventual reunification, but I don't think there will be a "cause and effect." What is true is that had reunification been proposed and agreed over the last two years the whole backstop question would not have arisen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM

once wales has made its mind up whether it wants to be little little england when England goes for independence or to join Scotland and newly unified Ireland (and Cumbria) in a Celtic Union in the EU, then we are just about sorted. Remains of England can continue to send all the money down to london for HS2, trident, a new Shouty House for the weirdo brexiteer government and maybe a garden bridge and a mr blobby theme park on the grass outside for all the yellow jackets and IDS to play with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:05 AM

Hey Pete! If Cumbria is going for independence I want to see the reintroducion of the old kingdom of Northumbria so we can go too!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:22 AM

Talking of reunification is all well and good, but does the republic want to pick up the tab? Lefty dreams have a very tangible cost.
£10 billion a year is one figure quoted.


Reality Check

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 04:24 AM

Well I live near Bude in Cornwall, a town very close to the border with England. I want a backstop and I want it NOW. Bloody Devonians coming here, taking our jobs and shagging our wives...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 05:02 AM

So you do accept forecasts when they suit, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:37 AM

there is a great deal of money to be saved by northern parts not being forced to pay for stuff we don't want or need. HS2, trident, crossrail, a military armed way more than is necessary, state funerals for royalty, state security for trump's visit, security for a maggie th..... etc statue, stupidly huge payouts for government brexit or no deal 'planning' outsourcing everything to dodgy groups like carillion, virgin, serco etc.....anyway i could go on. we have renewables, fish, high quality food and whisky. and we won't be dragged into any more stupid wars to suit trump or whoever.

even the most passionate english person can plainly see what a mess and a joke the parliament is - the place is permanently infested with tories and the country has a sizable rump (ooer, missus) who will always support them whatever happens. if you have the chance to cut those links, why wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:50 AM

Varadkar is nervously watching his (chlorinated?) chickens starting to come home to roost…

https://order-order.com/2019/02/15/ireland-getting-nervous-eu-stitch/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

So BMI has collapsed, blaming brexit. Wow. Of all the airlines I've used providing flights to Europe, BMI was by far the best. Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:56 AM

Nah, it's 'Project Fear' Steve!??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM

And FlyBe has said the company will be wound up if a sale is not agreed by shareholders in early March. They blame their problems on currency exchange rates and oil prices. Currency rates, as we all know, have nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit ....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:36 AM

FLYBE Facts:

BMI asset value in 2008 was £12 million.
EU interference made their Heathrow landing slots worth £770 million.
Various airlines bought shares to gain slots and then sold the company on.
By 2012 they were losing £1 million a month.

Where does Brexit come into this ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:41 AM

I think if you say "FlyBe FACTS" and then go on to talk about FlyBMI which is a completely separate company you must not be surprised if we have certain doubts....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

It might be worth mentioning that I used to work for the UK Civil Aviation Authority in the section that regulated the slots at airports, so I can probably say quite a lot about the impact of "EU interference." Suffice it to say that in broad terms, the slots are worth what airlines are prepared to pay, no more, no less and the EU regulations are about ensuring slots are bought to be used, not to held unused to block out competitors. What airlines are prepared to pay depends on their forecast - yes, I am afraid, they do rely on forecasts - of how profitable owning one slot rather than another is. Everything that affects potential profitability feeds into that forecast, including how Brexit might alter the market.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:27 AM

BMI Regional had emerged in 2012 as a spin-off airline, under new owners, after the mainline carrier BMI was sold to British Airways parent IAG. BMI Regional operated services under the brand name Flybmi

Flybe is a totally separate company that is also up for sale, Potential buyers have been mentioned as Easyjet and Stobart.

Brain not fully engaged. Apologies for confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:39 AM

I am reminded of a brilliant "Rise and Fall or Reginald Perrin" where he invited all the senior staff of his company to a party and they all hung awkwardly aroubd his dining room whwre there was no food, but no one could mention it. After a long time he said, "Right every one, shall we move into the garden now?" Evwryone brightened up becauae obviously all the food was out there ... And it wasn't.

In the end he said there was no food but he had donated all the cost of it to a charity and was sure every one would agree. And of course they had no choice but to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

Whoops everyone. Talk about brain not being engaged. That was a text to my daughter!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:54 AM

"Whoops everyone. Talk about brain not being engaged. That was a text to my daughter!"

ROTHLMAO! I was wondering what you were drinking last night...!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:15 AM

I did have a little prosecco on the grounds we had some still around from a party we had, so it was on hand when an family engagement was announced. But that's all, honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:40 AM

It's a well-known fact in our house that a cracked-open bottle of prosecco must be consumed in full as one wouldn't want to be later consuming the flat article. We therefore never have 'a little prosecco" unless there are four or five of us, and even then it prompts the commissioning of a second bottle.

Back to the ruck...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:48 AM

Everything that affects potential profitability feeds into that forecast, including how Brexit might alter the market.

No one can dispute that.
However the slots were sold off long before brexit was a gleam in anyone's eye. The residue of the company was a stripped out husk losing money from that time if my understanding is correct. From comments I have seen elsewhere it was a dead duck a long time back.
"The airline was heavily loss-making, and no-one was prepared to put in extra funding. The average passenger load per flight was just 18, meaning even the small regional jet planes flown by Flybmi were less than half-full, The typical Ryanair departure has 10 times as many passengers.

Since Flybmi split away from BMI, investors have pumped in £40m, which represents a subsidy of about £13 per passenger ever flown."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM

Potential purchasers of flyBMI and flybe will take the forecast return for whatever slots they own into account, and they will base any such forecast from today when Brexit is more than a gleam in anyone's eye.

It is silly to blame everything on Brexit. But it is equally silly to refuse to admit Brexit might be causing problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 10:15 AM

I think their business model had been flawed for years. The only surprise is that they kept trading so long. The dog was dead, the infestation of fleas was insufficient to keep it moving. Brexit will occur after it's wake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM

The FlyMBI affair has now been linked to the Brexit fiasco on today's mid-day news, as if we didn't know already
Watch this space, this is just another of more to come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 12:31 PM

This winter is proving extremely cruel to small airlines, which have high fixed costs and, currently, very low revenues. It has precipitated the collapse of Primera Air, Cobalt of Cyprus and Germania before Flybmi.

Flybe, which is continuing operations as normal, has been rescued by a cash injection from a consortium involving Virgin Atlantic, Stobart Air and a US hedge fund – which bought it for just £2.2m.

Small regional airlines based in the UK are particularly vulnerable. Return journeys on domestic flights are subject to £26 in Air Passenger Duty, placing them at an immediate disadvantage. And whenever a route becomes successful, it is likely that a bigger player will elbow in with larger planes and lower fares.

Lets see a Scandinavian airline, a cypriot airline, and a german airline along with FlyBMI all kicked into touch and Flybe struggling.
All due to Brexit?
Pull the other one!

Awkward things facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:00 PM

This is the second time in about as many weeks I have pointed this out. Brexit can be A factor without being the ONLY or even the MAIN factor., That all low cost carriers are finding it tough does not affect whether Brexit uncertainty makes things tougher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

DMcG I do not really dispute your analysis. What somewhat irritates me is those that latch on to brexit as the sole cause of all things negative. Variable factors impact outcomes, from confidence to the weather. The problem arises in trying to assign the correct weighting to each of the variables besides actually being able to identify them in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM

The main difference being is that Brexit is perceived to be a factor.

A factor of our own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:48 PM

Now I'n not about the buy a Porsche or a Audi, Lamborghini or a Bugatti.

However I could consider buying a Seat or a Skoda.

Now the German company is warning that prices may increase by 10% after the UK leaves the EU.

One should note that this is in addition to the rises created by the fall in the value of the pound since June 2016.

What price Brexit eh! I fear we're about to find out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47270616

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 02:49 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47270616

Try again:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 03:01 PM

Cars are not green. You should walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:26 PM

Well. lets see.

The nearest "city" to where I live in 40 miles.

Now in my youth I may have been able to walk that in 10/11 hours.

Now I fear it may take me a week.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:30 PM

700! Don't do it Ravgy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:32 PM

And I've got 700!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 04:33 PM

Bugger! Missed! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:23 PM

Also English is stuffed with sayings like "the straw that broke the camel's back" And "juggling too many balls" and stories like "how the arena became the king of the birds." Using the juggling metaphor, if it took juggling a specific four to run the business with difficulty, and adding a fifth called Brexit caused everything to be dropped it would be perfectly reasonable to blame the Brexit ball. True, you could have got rid of one of the others and juggled successfully, but you would have been losing one of the key four needed.

Blaming Brexit for a demise can be perfectly reasonable, even if it is comparatively small effect, should it be enough to tip the business over the edge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 06:25 PM

How the wren became king of the birds. I hate autocorrect! I only tolerate it because my typing on the phone would be even less decipherable without it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:20 PM

Essentially it’s the same fallacy you get when climate change deniers assert that, if there turned out to be natural factors that contribute to undesirable change, that means that any contribution to such changes from human activities can be of no importance, and that efforts to deal with them are misguided.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 07:49 PM

As we approach the horror of brexit, Kevin, denial has become the brexiteers' mantra. It's notable that, along with that, we are hearing less and less about the "opportunities" that brexit provides. Gone bit quiet, has that. But let's look on the bright side: we have a deal with the Swiss. At least we won't have to pay more for our cuckoo clocks. There's an upside to everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM

The labour luvvies will not like this!
You heard it from Guido!

Labour Split

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:36 AM

Much like the huge divisions within the conservative party really.

Oh course they will be brushed under the carpet by our resident Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

For my part, I have no problem with any MP deciding they will vote according to their beliefs and judgement rather than the whip. In fact, the more, the better. And that applies to all parties.

I note that the breakaway people are calling themselves a group, not a party. That may just be a matter of where they are in the process but it may reflect that that there are enough differences between them they think a new party is a non-starter. They will of course be aware that our system is very unforgiving for new parties as well.


And isn't it an intriguing detail that 8 chairs were put out and seven MPs resigned? A miscount or a no-show I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:54 AM

I've always thought that any MP who stood and got elected on a party ticket, supported by party workers and party money, then left the party, should step down as an MP as well. They are there under false pretences. Anyway, good riddance. They have all worked to serially undermine Corbyn. Now they'll have to do it as pink Tories. And that'll get them nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

Anyway back to Brexit.

I recall being told that nations across the world would be falling over themselves to have trade deals with the UK.

Now it seems that Japan are not too happy with our approach and this is on top of China cancelling trade talks last week.

Take into account Trumps America first approach and we don't seem to having nations beating a path to our door.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

In the search for good news, we should not overlook that the UK has struck a deal with the US to in effect roll over an existing EU agreement.

Ok, "keeping what we have" is perhaps stretching the definition of good news too far, but it doesn't immediately look like bad news ... assuming there have been no unpublished additional agreements of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:28 AM

Nice twist on Brexit
Seven right wing Labour politicians (4 with direct links to Israel) have left the Labour Party with a view to forming their own party
They give "antisemitism" and Brexit for their reason for doing so
One who isn't involved with Israel was one of the few successful in refusing to reveal the details of her expenses during the scandal
Good riddance to them - perhaps we can see a continuance of progressive Labour policies without being hampered by a yearning for a return to the good old days of 'New Labour's' "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and duck palaces for politicians pets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 10:09 AM

Strong rumours that Honda are to quit the UK post Brexit and close their Swindon factory in 2022 with the loss of 3,500 jobs.

No doubt some will say this is a small price to pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 11:31 AM

"Strong rumours that Honda are to quit the UK "
Must have an abscess
As they say Abscess makes the fart go "Honda"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM

I've always thought that any MP who stood and got elected on a party ticket, supported by party workers and party money, then left the party, should step down as an MP as well. They are there under false pretences.

By extension this should also apply to all those MPs elected on a brexit ticket and now busy betraying it.

No doubt your whimsy will find a way to weasel out and refute the suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM

Seven right wing Labour politicians (4 with direct links to Israel) have left the Labour Party with a view to forming their own party

“I am leaving behind a culture of bullying, bigotry and intimidation,”

There you have it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 12:26 PM

Israel has nothing to do with brexit. I know that Eurovision is from Tel Aviv this year but, trust me, that is nothing to do with the EU. If you want to discuss Israel, start a different thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM

I believe Jim first raised the issue. Why not take it up with him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 01:29 PM

The reasons given for their resignation was Antisemitism and Brexit
I have no intention of censoring the news report - I suggest nobody else tries to

Honda is now closing down its British branch because of Brexit Branch
No doubt we will now be told that they are crap cars
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 01:43 PM

Closing Swindon has repercussions far beyond the loss of the 3500 jobs. There are disruptions to supply chains with other manufacturers and there's the loss of skills, not to speak of the social consequences in the town. Thatcher enticed the Japanese carmakers here, promising them an illustrious market and the free flow of materials. We've ditched that promise via brexit so they're ditching us. That was never daubed on the side of a bus, was it? I've gone against my own grain and decided to back another referendum. The country will vote remain and that's the only way we're going to stop the country being wrecked. The seven MPs are despicable and totally unprincipled. They all used party money to campaign and they all used the party structure to get elected, and they all stood on the Labour manifesto and they all increased their majority. They should stand down and fight by-elections. I wish them a miserable oblivion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 01:54 PM

They should stand down and fight by-elections.
Hows about first getting shot of Fiona Onasanya as MP.
Priorities me boy, Priorities!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:58 AM

The announcement by Honda can be found Here

Here is part of the announcement:
Katsushi Inoue, Chief Officer for European Regional Operations, Honda Motor Co., Ltd., and President, Honda Motor Europe said; "In light of the unprecedented changes that are affecting our industry, it is vital that we accelerate our electrification strategy and restructure our global operations accordingly. As a result, we have had to take this difficult decision to consult our workforce on how we might prepare our manufacturing network for the future. This has not been taken lightly and we deeply regret how unsettling today's announcement will be for our people."
. . .
Honda's European HQ will continue to be located in the UK. It will be focused on serving the needs of our European customers.

This gives a good reason for the restructuring (and thus the closure of the plant) and does not mention Brexit.
This is not selective quoting. The rest of the page doesn't mention Brexit either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:12 AM

What the hell else are they to say Nigel ?
HONDA ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES - PLENTY MORE TO COME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM

It's just brexiteers in denial, Jim. Knowing that they have lost the 'everything is going to be ok' argument they have moved on to 'the news is all that bad' and 'it's nothing to do with brexit anyway'. Why they just can't admit they were wrong is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:35 AM

Not much talk any more about those golden opportunities post-brexit either. Doctor Liam hasn't done very well, has he, apart from ensuring cheaper cuckoo clocks. And I can't imagine things will get much better if we continue to piss Trump off over failed jihadi fighters and send warships to float past China.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

You may be correct on this one Nigel.

I did notice you didn't post anything a word when I said that one of my insurance companies was relocating some of it's operations to Germany though.

I did notice you didn't post anything when I posted that Nissan was not going to product it's new model in Sunderland, due in part to Brexit.

I did notice you didn't post anything when I posted about other Insurance and Banking organisations relocating some of their operations to Ireland.

Bit of a pattern forming here ...........??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 08:13 AM

In fairness though, and trying to be fair to the 'in denial' Brexshiteers, it must be very hard to face facts and publicly admit you've been completely sucked-in by a campaign of deceit masterminded by a tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy tax-avoiders and, as a result, behaved like a stupid, feeble-minded cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:03 AM

Ians said that there would be no food tariffs post Brexit. Gove says otherwise. Lamb and beef almost certainly. Possibly cereals. Aha, it's a good job we don't live on potato, though it looks as if some of us may do so in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

BW, I'm curious who you would vote for in a a stupid, feeble-minded cunt contest: your in denial Brexshiteers, or our in denial Trumpistas.

Or is this more of a 'primus inter pares' sort of thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Mossback - I'm fortunate to have a decent brain, and I'm prepared to use it. I wouldn't vote for either. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:02 AM

Leeks, not potatoes, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 12:23 PM

HONDA:
In a statement on Tuesday, Honda said it would close the factory west of London as part of global restructuring of its manufacturing network to prepare for the age of electric vehicles.

The closure of Honda’s sole manufacturing site in Europe is expected to lead to the loss of 3,500 British jobs and deals a massive blow to the UK’s car industry as the country prepares to leave the EU.

The company also said it would close its factory in Turkey, where it employs 1,100 people and produces about 50,000 cars a year, of which 20 per cent are exported to Europe.
Analysts say the Swindon closure is long overdue. Honda had been scaling back its struggling UK operation for years and its market share in Europe remains tiny.
the new EU-Japan trade deal and declining market conditions in Europe likely affected the decision by Japan’s third-largest carmaker.

and of course the remainiacs carefully overlook the following:
The negotiations of the EU-Japan free trade agreement are now in the advanced stages. The latest statistics show that Japan is the fifth most important destination for European passenger cars and ranks second among countries exporting cars to the EU.Nearly 575,000 Japanese cars with a total value of €9 billion were imported into the EU in 2016. A trade pact that will remove EU tariffs of 10 percent on Japanese cars and 3 percent on most car parts is in the offing. Cheaper to now produce in Japan and export.
Awkward things facts! Now what was that about brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 12:44 PM

Wonder if the Irish will be thrown out of Brexit's Baave New Britain
I can think of one "poor mistreated Tommy Robinson" hand-wringer who would welcome the idea
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 12:52 PM

and who would that be little jimmie?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 02:08 PM

A glimpse of reality appears from the fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 06:00 PM

That link has changed since I posted it. It still contains what was the main theme before, namely:


=====

[May] was forced to admit to Conservative MPs that the Irish backstop could not be replaced by the “Malthouse compromise” – proposals for a free trade agreement with as-yet-unknown technology to avoid customs checks on the Irish border.

=====

Not surprisingly, May seems to have wobbled to say maybe in time it can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 12:54 AM

if there is a second referendum,imo the referendum should have only two choices remain or leave,any pissing about with inclusion of mays deal[ as a voting option] will only split a vote and could prevent an overall majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:42 AM

An interesting piece from The Irish Tmes today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

"Irish Times"
Interesting critique of the Labour Party in a leader article yesterday - it tend to show a failure to fully understand the problems faced by a party attempting to cleanse itself of leadership little different from those on the other side of The House, but its opening statement deserves a place in political history

"The British Labour Party should be on the cusp of a historic triumph. The main opposition party faces one of the most incompetent administrations in any major European state in the post-war era: a lurching, hopelessly riven Conservative Party led by a zombie figurehead, kept in power by an ultra-conservative single-issue outfit from Northern Ireland, and unable to come up with a workable policy on the most consequential issue of the past half a century"."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM

Jim:
Unfortunately, for once I totally agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

Welcoming Hatton and Livingstone back in the fold and allowing momentum to become as divisive as the banned militant tendencywill probably destroy the Labour party and the undercurrent of antisemitism allegations still swim around, brought to the fore by the recent defections. Corbyn cannot be trusted and his opinions are more changeable than the weather.
   It does the cause of democracy no favours when the opposition party
has the tail wagging the dog, and the dog is on the point of expiry.
steptoe senior is an apt analogy, he is tottering over a heap of rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:03 AM

So now three Conservatives have joined the independent group. I don't think these are the last from either side.

It is interesting that both parties are saying "We are a broad church." It doesn't matter whether *you* think you are a broad church. What matters is if others agree. And in this case, from both sides, some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:26 AM

As you know 40 days and 40 nights from now my UK brothers and sisters face a no deal hard Brexit that will trigger the beginning of a shortage of medicine and food. On top of this the the border with northern Ireland makes trade crazy and travel restrictions in general will be insane.
I thought you guys would have sorted this but now even I am truely scared of the coming suffering.

Ignoring the new policies will be rampant along with black markets springing up will become the new crimes. I am in no position to speculate what can not be forseen but what i do see is worse than Trump tariffs times 10.

John Oliver has compared your referendum to a surgeon that gives the patient two options and the patient accidentaly chose the fatal option.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:12 AM

John Oliver has compared your referendum to a surgeon that gives the patient two options and the patient accidentaly chose the fatal option.

Very astute observation, Donuel. It gets worse though. The surgeon has now explained that the procedure will be fatal and the patient is still insisting that he goes ahead with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:23 AM

"The surgeon has now explained that the procedure will be fatal and the patient is still insisting that he goes ahead with it!"
A perfect plot for Holby City - not too god for the people of Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 10:55 AM

May has managed to nause up the offer of visa free travel to the EU by whining about the description of Gibralter as a British Colony. Its just words, but this could mess up the travel plans of millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:09 AM

45% increase in prices of basic foods on WTO terms. I cannot afford this. Source: The Independent Newspaper.

Retailers have warned that a no-deal Brexit will lead to “unaffordable” price hikes on food and drink for customers in both the UK and Ireland as well as causing shortages of some everyday items.

Leaders of retail bodies said reverting to World Trade Organisation tariffs could make the cost of making fresh food and drink available to consumers increase by as much as 45 per cent- which is likely to be passed on to customers.

Food and drink production will be made more expensive due to a combination of higher tariffs and new regulatory checks, according to Aodhan Connolly, director of the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium, Thomas Burke, director of Retail Ireland and William Bain, the British Retail Consortium Europe and international policy adviser.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 03:34 AM

The news from Karen (if correct) will save the NHS a fortune and cure the obesity epidemic. Sounds like a win win to me!

I do not believe obesity was a common problem during wartime rationing, or immediately after when rationing was at its most severe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:17 AM

Iains is talking rubbish.

In the war the ration was calculated to be nutritionally adequate. People ate it because (black market aside) they had no choice. What is being talked of post Brexit is increases in precisely the fresh food that is an important part of a balanced diet.

It isn't just about how much you eat, but about what you eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 06:21 AM

"Iains is talking rubbish."
Nah - he's gloating over the misfortunes of those who won't be able to feed their families
Nothing new there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

"Nah - he's gloating over the misfortunes of those who won't be able to feed their families
Nothing new there"

Says anglophobe little jimmie,the man applauding the return of Isis terrorist to unleash mayhem in Britain.
Sick or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 08:03 AM

"the return of Isis terrorist to unleash mayhem in Britain"

Oh yes, the authorities are going to bring Shamima Begun back to the UK give her a free bus pass and lessons on bombing making too ......

I've said it before ......... idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM

People who regard criticism of politicians Anglophobic usually go under the title 'Ultranationalist'
They have an annual commemoration to remember the victims of that particular philosophy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 10:35 AM

Abu-Zakariya al-Britani, also known as Jamal Udeen Al-Harith, murdered a number of Iraqi soldiers and killed himself via murder-bombing in 2017. The BBC reported that Tony Blair personally was involved with getting Abu-Zakariya freed from Guantanamo in 2004. The UK government paid $1 million as compensation to Abu-Zakariya al-Britani for his stay at Guantanamo


https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/942_OPSR_TP_Returning-to-Fight_Literature-Review_508.pdf

According to the latest estimate by the Office of the Directorate of National Intelligence (ODNI), the rate of confirmed or suspected recidivism among former Guantanamo detainees is about 27 percent or 161 individuals out of the 600 released (HASC, 2012). The estimated recidivism rate, however, has been rising up from seven percent in July 2008 to 14 percent in April 2009, and 25 percent in October 2010 (HASC, 2012

So of the 800 returning jihadis that little jimmie is crowing about, conservative statistics suggest 200 will be active terrorists on their return and queue up very happily to get the free bus pass and bomb making lessons so kindly volunteered by raggedtytash our resident buffoon.
   God preserve us from clueless leftie luvvies!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps a mod would be kind enough to move the last few posts over to the relevant thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:59 PM

How many times do we need to say it. Just don't respond. He is creaming his pants now!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 02:04 PM

"He is creaming his pants now!"
Nah - he only doest that when he's taking the piss out of the less well off
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:14 PM

I think we are all used to politicians double speak but the article in todays Guardian surely takes some beating.

It would seem that "some" cabinet ministers believe that Teresa May should step down "on a high" after this years local elections.

That reads to me as she can take all the crap of the Brexit debacle and we will carry on regardless and have someone else to blame.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/22/theresa-may-must-go-in-three-months-cabinet-ministers-say






"Not us Guv, we wus at home watching Banana splits!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM

That also sounds like a push for a no deal, then have someone in charge who is not bound by any of her promises, to enable any regulations or restrictions to be jettisoned if they wish. Goodbye an independent farming sector.

O sometimes wonder if David Davis's inactivity for the start of this was a conscious long term strategy - he was always aiming for no deal.

I think, by the way, that a lot of the dire predictions of no-deal will turn out to be false or wildly exaggerated. But don't worry, the fraction thar is accurate will be quite bad enough by itself. It is worth saying because I expect we could hear a lot of "you predicted the seven plagues and they didn't happen." Maybe not, but one plague is quite enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM

A report today suggest that tariffs on imported food (alone) post Brexit could total £9 Billion per annum.

This would mean an additional cost to us, the consumers, of over 170 million a week, rough half of the "savings" advertised on the infamous red bus.

Food Tariffs

Any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:58 AM

These tariffs are a direct tax on British consumers. Who will be obliged to pay more for many staples, such as cheese. Availability could be a problem too, we may be back to the dark dank days of the 70s, when the only cheese you could get was plastic cheddar from Budgens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:04 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 07:05 AM

MORE TROUBLE AT 'T MILL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 08:21 AM

Thrre Cabinet Ministers have threatened to resign rather tha support a 'No Deal' Brexit, and there are now widespread calls demanding that leaving should be delayed
TIME FOR A SONG MAYBE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:17 AM

a referndum in the island of ireland on a united ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:21 AM

You get the DUP to agree to that and I'll buy you a pint!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 10:12 AM

"You get the DUP to agree to that and I'll buy you a pint!!"
The DUP are no longer in a majority and will need to rely on other parties to pass legislation when Stormont finally reopens
Their insistence in remaining part of the UK has never featured strongly in people's minds; rather it has been a case of economic security to leave things as they are - Brexit had driven a Chieftain Tank through that one so, if it ever comes to a vote it is quite likely that a United Ireland will walk it
Crazy situation - a party that has to rely on support of other parties in the Six Counties is now propping up the British Government - 'Yes Prime Minister' couldn't have made this up - let alone 'Spitting Image'
A feckin' laughing stock - the lot of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 10:24 AM

Fun for travellers to Europe in the event of a 'No-Deal' BrexShit on 29/3.

Didn't see any of that on the side of that friggin' red bus!

Any GOOD news about BrexShit?

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

There are some that have concluded the brexit bus will be hijacked by the EU and used to run over Mr Varader.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/united-ireland-fix-brexit-britain

In an EU heading into recession the pain of a hard border will be keenly felt by both the German and French economies and should reunification occur, can the republic afford the 19 billion price tag.


Actions have consequences and Taoiseach Leo Varadkar as the EU's useful idiot may find his shelf life limited.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 11:07 AM

"Any GOOD news about BrexShit?"
It looks like it might be put on the back boiler for a while and it has brought the Tory Party crashing in flames
EVERY CLOUD BACCY - EVERY CLOUD !
jIM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM

> You get the DUP to agree to that and I'll buy you a pint!!

Raggy, the DUP can say what it likes. According to my understanding of the Good Friday Agreement, the call for a border poll doesn't require British Parliamentary consent, just the advice of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (in the absence of Stormont), if he or she has cause to believe that it's the popular will. It's a government issue, not a Parliament one, so all the PM has to do is accept the judgment of the S of S, and proceed to put a border poll in motion. And if the PM refuses, it probably wouldn't happen. But if it gets denied in the event of a hard Brexit, seven kinds of hell will probably break loose, for financial reasons more than political ones.

[The DUP's] insistence in remaining part of the UK has never featured strongly in people's minds; rather it has been a case of economic security... Brexit has driven a Chieftain Tank through that one.

It'll drive a tank through the Protestant farmers/small businesses vote too, when election time rolls around, which the DUP would do well to remember. As Jim has indicated, people are more worried about being able to feed their children and keep up mortgage payments than ideologies.

Of course, reunification also needs the consent of the Republic of Ireland, which can only be obtained by putting it to the vote here, i.e. a referendum. If both nations then find for reunification, the legislation is already in place (AFAIU) to implement it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:01 PM

A hard brexit will hit Ireland severely. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, the Irish 40th. Therefore there is much less resilience. Additionally Ireland prides itself on a knowledge economy largely founded on the presence of multinationals in the country. Should the threatened tax harmonization occur within the EU their raison d'être
may founder on quicksand. This is a double vulnerability further magnified by the UK being the biggest export market and UK food being 40% of Irish supermarket goods(roughly) and UK ferry ports acting as
entrepôt ports for Irish trade to and from the EU. Varadkar is doing his country no favours by trying to act the bogeymen thwarting British attempts to extricate themselves from the disaster zone of the EU.
The demographics indicate reunification is a likely outcome at some future point, providing it is seen as of economic benefit to the North.
Is a free health service more of a draw than a political ideal, as far as the majority in the north are concerned? (To give but one example)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:32 PM

From Backwoodsman's link:
Currently, a driver of a UK-registered car is allowed to drive anywhere in the EU, the EEA (European Economic Area), Switzerland and Serbia, and not have to carry a green card that proves you have insurance cover.

But if the UK leaves without a deal, all changes and drivers will be expected to carry a green card when in mainland Europe and Ireland. They are likely to be issued by an insurance company for free, but the industry is warning it could take up to a month to obtain one, so if no deal happens and you're booked to go away with the car this Easter, you will need to act fast.

Typical Guardian: But if the UK leaves without a deal, all changes and drivers will be expected to carry a green card when in mainland Europe and Ireland. That sentence makes no sense (except to Guardian readers). I'm guessing that there should be a word, or phrase, between 'all' and 'changes'. But in the absence of such, it makes no sense.

The second paragraph says that drivers will be 'expected to carry a green card'. This does NOT mean that they will be 'required' to carry one. Again, Guardian readers may have a different understanding of the English language.

I know that there are those here who think that quoting from The Guardian helps put their case forward, but it appears that those who write for that paper are lacking in their understanding of the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:36 PM

Nitpicking again Nigs? Never let us down, do you?

Pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:45 PM

"Of course, reunification also needs the consent of the Republic of Ireland, which can only be obtained by putting it to the vote here"
We....lllll
Partition was a part of The Empire, which is long gone - it was supposed to be temporary anyway
That being said - thas all but a majority for ending partition here for several years now and I have little doubt that the idea of a hard border would shift the balance convincingly
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:46 PM

Is a pillock of a higher order than an idiot, or is it simply the gormless insults of a bereft wazzock?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 02:56 PM

. I'm guessing that there should be a word, or phrase, between 'all' and 'changes'. But in the absence of such, it makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense, since 'changes' there is a verb, not a noun. Using a slightly different tense you would have "without a deal, all is changed and drivers will be expected.."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:06 PM

ut if the UK leaves without a deal, all changes and drivers will be expected to carry a green card when in mainland Europe and Ireland. They are likely to be issued by an insurance company for free, but the industry is warning it could take up to a month to obtain one, so if no deal happens and you're booked to go away with the car this Easter, you will need to act fast.

This can of course be reciprocated for any EU vehicles traversing the UK. Yet another expense to be picked up by Irish trucks. Typical Guardian to give half the story.
Still looking on the bright side,the lousy rag will go belly up hortly. By the number of times it's online presence is begging for dosh it would appear its lefty business model suffers from the usual problem of having largely squandered other people's money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:22 PM

"Is a pillock of a higher order than an idiot, or is it simply the gormless insults of a bereft wazzock?"

Hilarious coming, as it does, from the most aggressive, insulting poster on this forum.

Medice, cura te ipsum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 03:57 PM

Economically a hard Brexit will hit Britain severely too. Ireland is her biggest trading partner. If the UK leaves with no deal, she will be obliged to replace each one from scratch, with every nation individually. And the USA is currently unpredictable in that sphere, so no assurances there. With Europe acting as a bloc, that's not a secure place to be, as numerous British fiscal experts have warned. So it cuts both ways. This impasse is not chiefly about political ideals.

The real issue in Ireland, north and south, is less Brexit-pro-vs-con (though the North did vote to remain) as the spectre of Brexit with no deal. In addition to the financial aspects, it will almost certainly return us - on both sides of the border - to violence and personal endangerment. (And is Britain really prepared to send in armed forces?) No Irish government is going to sit still for that. Why should they put their own citizens at risk?

They're only holding May to what she already consented to: i.e., a backstop. The Good Friday Agreement was also a mutually signed treaty, parts of which are now being blithely disregarded. I don't know why May feels entitled to go back on her word, nor where the sense of injury comes from. Neither Europe nor Ireland kicked the UK out. It kicked itself out.

I'm a dual British/American citizen, resident in the Republic of Ireland for longer than either my native country or my naturalised one - both of whom I love. It gives me no joy to write this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM

It gives me no joy to write this.

A most important point, there, so thanks for raising it. Those who oppose the no deal Brexit are being accused of gloating, and no doubt will be even more if there are problems.

I will take no pleasure at in anything that goes wrong. I, and I believe most people on the remain or softest possible Brexit side, want all the people of this country to do well and will take no pleasure in any difficulties that come their way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:04 PM

Bonnie, my tongue was firmly in my cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:12 PM

The UK is in no position to make things difficult for Irish or continental trucks carrying food to the UK. We need to eat. It would be similar to the Venezualan aid convoy. Except that we can pay if the food can get through. May seems determined to hold a gun to our heads over a no deal brexit, is she prepared to try to starve her population into submission?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:19 PM

Ireland is her biggest trading partner. ?????????

The UK is the second major destination for Irish exports 12%
but exports to Ireland represent 5.5$ of UK exports and ranks 10th as a Trading partner of the UK and has generated a trade surplus annually since 1990.
I suspect your phrasing is back to front. This makes a significant difference,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

Sorry, I didn’t realise I’d hit Submit... that was not intended as any kind of sarky “response”. (Damn iPad keyboards.) Whoever the biggest is, Ireland is part of a 27-nation economic bloc, and Britain will be left out - I believe struggling - on her own. I cannot tell you how much that thought breaks my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 06:36 PM

For the benefit of American readers, a 'wazzock' is a root vegetable grown mostly in Cornwall and frequently fed to pigs.


A 'pillock' is a sort of medication, in solid form, usually taken with water. As opposed to a capsule or capsulock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 03:46 AM

According to the Sunday Times:

A vicious cabinet war erupted last night over a plot by senior ministers to delay Brexit, as Theresa May looked certain to shelve plans for a Commons vote on her deal this week.

=======

This ability of one person to manipulate Parliament by making promises to assuage rebellions at that time, only to renage on them.later is proving to be a major flaw in our system. Whether or not May does so this time, she has done it in the past. One the Brexiteers will agree with: since the Speaker selects which amendments are called and which are not, that role has a tremendous power vested in one individual.

I suspect whatever happens we might see motions over the next few months trying to give Parliament more powers rather than individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

Karen I suspect your dictionary is in severe need of revision!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:30 AM

"Is Britain prepared to send in armed forces? No Irish government is going to sit still for that."


I very much doubt if 'Britain' is contemplating invading the Irish Republic, the Irish government has no need to sit/stand/worry about that.


Regarding deploying UK troops in Northern Ireland, if the need arises I see no problem, it's well established that there are plans to use the army post-Brexit in the UK if necessary. I sincerely hope that there are military/security service staff in the North of Ireland already as there have been mutterings about nationalist violence and this would seem to be a sensible precaution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM

"it's well established that there are plans to use the army post-Brexit in the UK if necessary."

Governments plan for all sorts of contingencies and actually wargame some. The US had plans to invade Canada
to plan for something is not necessarily to mean it will happen.

Corbyn wargamed for a catastrophic drop in the value of the pound, should he become premier. The argument over wheter that was merely precautionary or mandatory I leave to others!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

Iains

I leave expertise on wargaming to you. I was just trying to unpick a post that I found a bit confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:02 PM

You'll find it less confused if you don't quote out of context. I wrote:

In addition to the financial aspects, [a no-deal Brexit] will almost certainly return us - on both sides of the border - to violence and personal endangerment. (And is Britain really prepared to send in armed forces?) No Irish government is going to sit still for that. Why should they put their own citizens at risk?

In other words, the question about armed forces is parenthetical - and rhetorical. The not-sitting-still referred to the dangers of a hard border, in light of the pressure May is putting on Ireland to limit/weaken the Backstop - which is the only thing preventing it, if there's a hard Brexit. A closed border, sooner or later will result in violence here, on both sides of it. Maybe I didn't make it clear (I was also writing in light of my previous post a few messages down.) But a hard Brexit is looking increasingly likely, and the domino effect is all too inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 12:30 PM

Karen the only expertise I would claim to have in life is the ability to breathe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:06 PM

OK and thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:09 PM

The Irish Government, then, is in effect, bringing about the hard Brexit that they would appear not to want? Because it is their insistence on this 'backstop' that seems to be driving the EU position.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:18 PM

What??? Thats an extraordinary interpretation. It is May's insistence on being outside the customs union which creates the need for the backstop. Hardly reasonable to blame the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 01:38 PM

"Because it is their insistence on this 'backstop' that seems to be driving the EU position."
Extraordinarily lack of understand at what a hard Brexit would mean to Ireland, including the reopening of sectarian violence
Brexit is already threatening Irish industry (North and South) and costing billions to guard against
As Varadkar said - Brexit is Britain'e decision and it is their responsibility to work it through without constantly passing the buck to those they are laready damaging
One of the best things that could come out of this circus is the removing of partition - at least everyone would save on the future cost of body-bags
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:01 PM

I think thats right Jim, a move towards a united Ireland is one of the few, perhaps the only, upside of brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Karen, re-read my last post, and read up on some history. I already said that the armed-forces remark was rhetorical. Of COURSE they're not going to. I am not worried about that, so don't misrepresent me.

May already agreed to the backstop (a fallback measure to prevent a closed border in the event of hard Brexit) in her initial deal. Now she want to undo it, effectively going back on the promises she made in her own deal. Ireland isn't the bad guy for needing to protect itself from the risks of internal violence - so it's *not* about the British army, OK?

May now wants to change the deal she herself presented and signed, to appease the hardliners in her party. And the open border was already enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement, a treaty that Britain signed. Taking away the Backstop will be disastrous for Ireland on both sides (and the North is, after all, in the UK). Ireland didn't create this mess. Look at the bigger picture, get the facts straight, and please stop cherry-picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:31 PM

Corbyn has just said if both May's proposed deal and Labour's are rejected, then Labour willl back a second referendum.

There is some doubt as to what the options would be that it would support, but one step at a time...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM

" a move towards a united Ireland "
I would much rather this happened for a positive reason rather than an 'any port in the storm one though
The on thing about this is that Brexit has enabled the different groups to unite in contrast to the UK where once united party has shattered itself into smithereens taking the rest of Britain with it.
Having to wait for a plumber and putting up with 60mph fog does have its compensations
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM

Brexit has an equivalence in quantum mechanics. Right now there is a super imposition of all states/possibilities. We can not know the position or outcome. No matter how radical the outcome it will become orthodoxy in time and you will know the true position you are in.

Psychologically
When this baby Brexit is born it will slowly develop. You will go through a phase where Britain will think Brexit is still a joke like peek a boo game because you have not learned object permanency yet. A true position will emerge whether there are any benefits as self awareness develops.

Some forecasts of disasters or legendary traffic jams in the Chunnel have only helped to make the crises to become more manageable.

As orthodoxy = radicalism + time you will learn your worst fears and best hopes will only be understood after a full year passes.

At this late date I see this baby is coming for good bad or indifferent. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

That Ireland will be still part of the EU seems a pretty positive reason to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM

Schrödinger's Brexit... love it, Donuel.

May delays the meaningful vote. Again. I set my hair on fire (whatever's left of it that hasn't already been incinerated).

The Cooper/Letwin amendment - fingers crossed - passes (getting more likely by the day, especially now that Corbyn's on board).

Meaningful Vote comes on March 12th.

(a) May's deal is approved. Hard Brexit is off the table.
(b) May's deal is defeated. Hard Brexit is effectively off the table.
Because Cooper/Letwin deadline is the 13th.

Britain isn't left alone out in the economic cold.
Ireland doesn't tear itself apart.
Everybody eats.
I reach for the fire extinguisher and douse my hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:37 PM

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:44 PM

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?
Not until you can give good news about Brexit beyond "We are leaving on 29th" which is your normal response to Raggy's requests!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

"Hard Brexit is off the table" doesn't mean that Brexit itself is off the table. Only hard Brexit. You know, the one that means leaving without a deal. Remain doesn't figure in the March 12th scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

I've been opposed to referendums for at least four decades, but I've decided in extremis that a people's vote is quite literally the only way out of this morass. I'm holding my nose here, but I hope that Labour's tentative moves in that direction bear fruit. In another referendum this country will vote remain, and that is the only solution to this that won't wreck this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:03 PM

But will, hopefully, wreck the Tory party :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:23 AM

Sorry Jim

Your posts were among my sources of information that 'sectarian violence' was likely to be an outcome of a hard Brexit. So I am aware of the risk, and you are wrong to claim I am ignorant of it.

That risk is precisely why, whatever Bonnie did nor did not intend to say, there is a chance of UK troops being deployed in the North of Ireland. Working on the assumption that the UK government has the brains to see that there is a risk of sectarian violence it makes sense for them to have 'military' and other intelligence at work monitoring those likely to instigate such violence. I hope they have.

Let's not say 'sectarian violence', let's say 'murder', car bombings, knee cappings, pub bombings, tarring and feathering and all the rest of it. And protection rackets and so on while we're at it.

And I think one of the main things that brought about a reduction in this was whichever POTUS stamped down on the US sending money to fund the Irish terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

And you cannot blame 'history' especially some half-baked romanticised notions that once upon a time there was a united country called Ireland or whatever the Celtic word was, for modern day violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:27 AM

And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices.

I don't buy 'A nasty British big boy did it six hundred years ago and ran away' as an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

kAREN, There is a simple solution, the uk and ireland agree on a referendum which involves the total people of the island of ireland, the referendum is a united ireland northen ireland then gets its wish to remain in europe, the referendum is imo likely to be in favour of a united ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:10 AM

The above is more likely to happen if a labour or liberal government were elected rather than the conservative paRty relying on the support of the DUP

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

"t will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices".
No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that
As it stands, Brexit has already begun to eat into the economy of Ireland, both north and South - installing a hard border would accelerate that substantially
Britain has deliberately used the DUP to push Brexit through - how on earth do you expect the Irish people to react to that ?
There really is a chance of a reawakening of the old conflicts and once again that can be laid squarely at the doors of Westminster
The British don't seem to have the slightest concept of the continuing effects of colonisation on the victims of that long dead means of dominating entire nations   
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

In another referendum this country will vote remain

The laddie has a hotline to God I suppose, or is it merely whimsy, or perhaps his delusions let him think his bizarre views are sufficient to bully the electorate?
Fact:
Poll 23.2.19
Leave 41%
Remain 45%
Undecided 13%

Level of uncertainty? well don't ask a bookie. They were hopelessly wrong last time around.
I would imagine if we go down the road of another referendum and betray democracy then whoever has the best soundbite prior to polling will win the day.
After all it is a well known fact on this forum that the people are sheep. It is also a well known fact that if you want the sheep to go in a certain direction and your dog is having an off day, then rattling a bucket is all you need to do.
Question: does the leave or remain bucket contain the sheep nuts?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

"And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices."

Karen you seem to overlook the fact that this whole debacle was brought about by the UK decision to leave the EU.

The UK Government knew, or should have known, the ramifications of such a decision so if any blame is to be laid it should firmly be at the door of the UK Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The fault is squarely on the shoulders of Cameron who would not stand up to the bully boys of the right wing. He was shit scared of losing power so caved in to the right within his own party and in the likes of UKIP. Any politician worth his salt would have demolished the xenophobic little Englander arguments and sent them packing but he played his little populist game and lost big time.

All subsequent moves by May and this useless bunch of tossers has been trying to get out of flushing the country, along with their careers, down the pan while trying to play down the fact that they dropped us in this shit in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:08 AM

Apparently Farage has said if there is another referendum with a choice between May's deal and remain, leavers should boycott it.

Suits me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM

Great btexit news at last! The pound is climbing against the Euro :-)


Oh. Hang on. Seems to be because it looks like brexit will be delayed. Ah well. I suppose we will just have to wait for the unicorns after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

And if May runs true to form via her usual bait-&-switch, and breaks her word at the last minute? She could just be playing My Deal Or No Deal poker, using the nation's ass as a bargaining chip, and wasting still more time. I trust her promises exactly as far as I can throw a 44-ton lorry.

I'm not thinking Remain-vs-Leave. Just Deal-vs-Crashout.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Or boxing very clever of course
Perfect timing to demand a second vote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

"Or boxing very clever of course"

I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition.
The great guido has the measure of the man, and some of the accompanying comments pull no punches.
Corbyn is totally unfitted to be a future PM.


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

"I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition." .............Iains

"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity." ............. George Orwell

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:57 PM

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.
In my own case to describe corbyn as clever would be deceitful.
To describe corbyn as duplicitous would be in the alternative sense of
someone who always lies to get their way.
nowt insincere in any of my posts I can assure you. and Orwell is on another thread. Best kept there otherwise a few get confused

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:23 PM

Whilst I have no wish yo engage with you, I would suggest that you re-read your last two posts, which are at odds with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:24 PM

yo = to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM

Stop prodding the ants Steve - everything his says is an inane contradiction
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:47 AM

More thread drift from the usual cabal.Obviously nothing sensible to contribute as usual. Here is a little gem from your favourite source the illustrious guido:

Commie Corbyn refuses to support hezbollah ban


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/

Aesop: “A man is known by the company he keeps”

I presume if you support corbyn you support the terrorist organisation hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47377548

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:59 AM

"We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it."
Please don't siplify a complicated and very dangerous situation
Permanenet peace in Ireland depends on the Good Friday agreement being seen through to a satisfactory conclusion
The DUP, in supporting Brexit, is drawing away from that solution, its main reason being maintaining British rule
Trivialising it really doesn't help understand it

This morning's announcement from Westminster that it is finally admitted that Norther Ireland will be far more severely hit by Brexit that will Britain will almost certainly add fuel to an already sensitive situation
Crashing out and leaving a hard border will just about clinch it

Singer Frank Harte once gave a talk on Irish political songs to a group of rather staid English Folkies at Loughborough around the time of 'The Troubles'
He began his talk:
"The British have never understood the Irish"
Pregnant pause
"But the Irish have always understood the British"
Never seen so many squirming bottoms
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:37 AM

i've seen many ridiculous and abusive points on here - and i know we should ignore them but..... is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist? perhaps if you are resisting occupation by a ruling military force....otherwise a communist is usually as pro-establishment as you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM

is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist

Franco thought so. Thousands of british Communists went over and were regarded by Franco the same as we regard ISIS. That is why the Brirish security forces distrusted and kept tabs on them.
Even the lefty rag the gruniard agrees:
Today they would be arrested under section five of the Terrorism Act 2006. If convicted of fighting abroad with a "political, ideological, religious or racial motive" – a charge they would find hard to contest – they would face a maximum sentence of life in prison. That they were fighting to defend an elected government against a fascist rebellion would have no bearing on the case. They would go down as terrorists.(and quite rightly so).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/10/orwell-hero-terrorism-syria-british-fighters-damned

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:52 PM

Good if you put upan unopenavble link and miss out the important bits
Article well worth reading

Whatever you might think of armed intervention in Syria, by states or citizens, Hemming's warning illustrates the arbitrary nature of our terrorism laws, the ring they throw around certain acts of violence while ignoring others, the risk that they will be used against brown and bearded people who present no threat. The non-intervention agreement of 1936 was not the last elaborate system of official humbug the British government devised."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM

Are you speaking double dutch above.
the apple does not fall far from the tree does it?
Do like the new paint box! Does it have pastels as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:13 PM

Will be interesting to see if Cohen's massive dump on Trump - "Conman, racist, liar - forged cheques, collusion with Russia, conspiracy over Clinton e-mails.... will have any effect on BRITISH/AMERICAN RELATIONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM

"Does it have pastels as well"
Game, set and match, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM

I don't believe that is cricket!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist?

See; the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cambodia, the Red Brigades, the Front Line and the Red Army Faction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

Perhaps, as Israel is now being accused by American Rabbis of colluding with a group described as being equivalent to the KKK, there's a name that should be added to your list Bobad
You can throw these in FOR GOOD MEASURE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM

Ah, over-simplification criticised and then a good example of it given, an example from Frank Harte (whoever he is).

This word 'British'. Lots of Irish think of themselves as British.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:23 AM

We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it.

I still don't buy it, and thank you for the recap on Good Friday and DUP policies but I knew about that and I still don't buy it.

"Yes I bombed them, I killed/kneed-capped/mutilated/punishment shot various young people/women/children but HISTORY MADE ME DO IT. It's your fault for not keeping to the Good Friday agreement and for voting for Brexit'

Geddit? I don't buy it. It's a choice, not history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

"Lots of Irish think of themselves as British."
You know that - o course ?
Not in my part of Ireland they don't - can't think of one
Those who do, do so because their Britishness was either forced upon them 100 years ago as a "temporary measure" to gain a peace that was never fulfilled, or to dominate in a deliberately created sectarian Protestant State
The most artificial thing you could possibly do is draw a line across a country and call part of it it somewhere else - it robs people of their national, cultural and historical identity and is guaranteed to creat a permanent industry of body-bag manufacture
I'm afraid Frank Harte's words are being borne out by your own display of both British arrogance and a lack of knowledge of the Irish people, who they actually are and who you appear to wish them to be.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:29 AM

No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that

Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder eachother on religious grounds and the wishes of the majority of those in Northern Ireland. And I think they designated it 'Northern Ireland'.

There was never a political entity called 'Ireland' before the Normans/Welsh went in. It was a collection of squabbling petty chiefdoms, rather like much of Europe at that time.

I can only hope that they crack down hard on any sectarian violence and on those who justify it through emotive nonsense like 'unnatural'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

And, while I am enjoying myself thinking and arguing outside the box, this dual citizenship stuff ought to go to. Pick one or the other, none of this two passports rubbish, especially for people expressing hatred of the 'British'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:09 AM

"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder eachother"
THat's an indredibly racist statement Karen -
The wars in Ireland can all be traced back to rid themselves of an Imperial power - on the whole, the people in general get on with one another, no matter what their different religions
Any sectarian violence that occured arose from the creation of an unequal secrtarian State by Britain - the first shots were fired Loyalists and the major violence broke out when Civil Rights protest marches for equality were diverted thought stone throwing mobs made up of the same bigots
Regarding your very revealing foot in mouth about aspiring to be
"British" - the majority 'British-linked' people of Northern Ireland have their roots in Scotland, a country that was treated similarly by the empire
I think we're finished here - I can get most of this sort of thing from a Tommy Robinson site - please take your anti-Irish hatred eslewhere - we've already got one of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

Jim
I am merely responding in kind to your posts. If you cannot take it do not dish it out. You yourself referred to sectarian violence. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:10 AM

"I am merely responding in kind to your posts."
I have never imn my life racially attacked anybody - there id no excuse for your behaviour here Karen
Nor have I insulted anybody personally - certainly not you
Finis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 11:21 AM

Nor have I insulted anybody personally - certainly not you


and I am the christmas fairy that fell off the tree!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM

Euro tunnel start legal challenge to ferry deals

It seems the Government has set aside 800K for this. When they talked about money being set aside to address no-deal issues, this was not what I had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 06:42 AM

The government has already settled, to the tune of £33 million. They can't defend the case, and they know it. More money hemorrhaging out, over asshattery that never should have happened.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47414699

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 07:14 AM

I'm another fairy. Pointing out that Irish tendency to murder eachother isn't racist. Poet Seamus Heaney did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

Just a bit of evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Real_Irish_Republican_Army_actions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Cemetery_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_Volunteer_Force

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM

And I stand by my point: if there is a return to what JIM has called 'sectarian violence' on a large scale (because I am not convinced it ever completely went away) then this will not be 'because' of Brexit or 'because' of some failure of the Good Friday agreement but 'because' some people, maybe 'bigots', as JIM described loyalists but I think Catholics can be just as bigoted, CHOOSE violence.

And I for one don't think they should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

Meanwhile, The US repeats what it hopes to get from a trade deal

As I said earlier, this in line with what Raab and co published as characterizing the ideal trade agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:32 AM

And I have read a fair bit of Irish history, which is how I know that in Medieval times there was a collection of warring chieftains and not a united country. There was a warrior aristocracy. Plus of course the bits ruled by Vikings who founded quite a lot of towns. There may have been some sort of 'high king' but this seems dubious and the position was contested at the time. I think I have this right.

In so far as the country was Catholic (and at one time it was at odds with Rome about the form of Christianity) then it cannot complain about the Pope giving it to Henry VIII of England and I don't suppose many did so at the time.

Not sure whether Jim would count descendants of the Anglo-Normans as Irish, they used to be called the 'Old English'.

etc etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

Wolfe Tone? Robert Emmet? Descended from incoming 'planters'.


And the 'celtic revival' was largely brought about by wait for it writers of a protestant or Anglo Irish background.


So now who's over-simplifying? Not to mention being a tad patronising eh Jim lad?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:46 AM

And what do the English make of all this? Well, I won't generalise, but I do recall at the height of the troubles people saying angrily we should just nuke the lot of them. But I think that might be going a tad too far :)_

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 09:04 AM

> Meanwhile, The US repeats what it hopes to get from a trade deal

and Britain socks it back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47418505

The US wants "comprehensive market access" for its farmers' products that would see more US-made food on British supermarket shelves. European Union rules currently limit US exports of certain food products, including chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-boosted beef. If free of EU trade rules, the US wants the UK to remove such so-called "sanitary and physiosanitary" standards on its farm exports.

Yeah, that always ends well.

Trump "also demands that the pound not be 'manipulated' to improve trade income or make UK products cheaper in the US." The pounds that are really going to get manipulated are those that measure body-weight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:23 AM

Medieval history -
Ireland was reluctantly colonised for eight centuries - religion divided the world and burned its opponents alive - Henry VIII bulti the biggest bonfires so he could get his leg over - which sums pup the clonisres rather than their victims
Try reading up The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years
Your remarks were racist and inexcusable
Please don't repeat them - there's already too much of that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:36 AM

Try reading up The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years

HORSE SHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

For Brexit, all that matters is that the Irish border question is highly significant to both sides and has been an area of violence very recently. All this historical stuff is good background, but it is all about WHY the border is significant. The important thing from now on is THAT it is significant.

For example, the recent US ideas on what a trade deal would involve in changes of standards will be of vital importance to NI/Ireland and would still be even if none of that history had happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

There was a particularly unthinking Brexiteer on Newsnight a few evenings ago talking about the difference in standard on both sides of the border - he was happy to be on US standards whatever the Government might say. All you have to do, apparently, is to agree to recognise each other's standards.

The spirit of "The easiest deal in history" lives on, I see. Just reach an agreement, that's all. Which we are doing so successfully for every aspect of Brexit.

Just reach an agreement. I could barely contain my laughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

'HORSE SHIT' seems a tad extreme. But it does seem to me that Jim is not one to let a nuanced and carefully researched historical view of the tragedy that was the potato famine get in the way of a bit of irrational bile.

'sums pup the clonisres'. Gaelic? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

I can accept the Irish Famine was a tragedy caused by ignorance, incompetence and misplaced Victorian morality. To attempt to portray ir as an act of deliberate genocide is the irrational delusion of a venomous old man witha massive chip on his shoulder concerning all things English because in modern parlance his father would be declared a terrorist.
      For deliberate read the Highland Clearances

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Back to Brexit.

Something that has slipped under my radar. Rees Mogg the arch brexiteer moved some of his investment company Somerset Capital Management to Dublin last year.

So much for "we're all in this together" eh!


Rees Mogg

Any good news yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

"irrational bile."
The only irrational bile is your revealing racist outburst and Iain's persistent ""bogtrotter" hatred
Let's leave it where it is eh
Behaviour like this puts Brexit exactly where it belongs - ignorance besed bigotry
PROBABLY MORE BOGTROTTING IN_FIGHTING

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

"irrational bile."
The only irrational bile is your revealing racist outburst and Iain's persistent ""bogtrotter" hatred
Let's leave it where it is eh
Behaviour like this puts Brexit exactly where it belongs - ignorance besed bigotry
PROBABLY MORE BOGTROTTING IN_FIGHTING

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg claims that the European project proves “the more Europe, the worse you do” - amid mounting fears over economic collapse
in the EU.

The EU Titanic


Unless betrayed we will not be part of such nonsense. Spiffing News!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM

Betrayal eh ......... strong word.

But not quite as strong an indication as moving some of your investment company to a eurozone, or as some may term it a betrayal of one's principles.

If he ever had any.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

i read that the nicotine-stained man frog is planning a 'leave means leave' march from sunderland to london. that's 281 miles in 20 days. how marvelous! what unlimited comic potential (or possibly a 'Slow TV' opportunity. Carry on Brexit? or'Triumph of the Will' as half a dozen puffing 50 somethings manage to wobble past the 3rd open pub of the day's journey. i look forward to seeing NF (just noticed that connection...hmm) giving up the tweed for a tracksuit and sweatband.

any opposition to this carnival would i hope be entirely jovial piss-taking with no aggression - any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

And now for something completely. The font of accurate facts and critical analysis!

https://order-order.com/2019/03/01/eurozone-suffers-worst-manufacturing-slump-since-2013/

Oh Dear what can the matter be
   German cars are stuck in the factory
They'll be there for many a saturday
   destroying the EU budget with flair!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:31 PM

Meanwhile one of your hero's is moving his wealth out of the UK into the EU to ensure that he doesn't suffer financially and you continue to act like a simpleton and say that is fine for my lords and masters.

Once again Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM

Once again Idiot.    A fine example of a well structured leftard reply. To acknowledge others as your Lords and Masters suggests a massive inferiority complex, or perhaps a meek acceptance of your perceived place in society. The "rich man in his castle" and all that.
Never mind! keep buying the scratch cards!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM

One. I have never bought a scratch card in my life.

Two. I haven't bought a lottery ticket for over 15 years or perhaps more. I do acknowledge I very occasionally bought them when the lottery first started, though many years ago. (I now consider them to be idiot taxation)

Three. (and most importantly) If someone tells me that we should leave the EU and then that self same person moves some of his vast wealth to a EU based country I ask myself why.

Four. You post like an idiot and ........thus

Five. I can only conclude you are an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:27 PM

I don't even know what a scratchcard is. My old mate and I have jointly done the lottery for the last 25 years using the same numbers I used in the very first draw. Thirty bob a week each. Apart from that, it's the Grand National, a quid to win on one horse and a quid each way on a long shot. That's me lot when it comes to gambling.

I've been discussing Iains with the mods lately, Raggytash. The best policy is to blank him out and let him expose himself without response from us. He's a bit of a bobad when it comes to shifty dealings, so ignore him and let's see how it goes. I admit that I've been a fool on my own climate change thread but I'm reining meself in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM

I've been discussing Iains with the mods lately

Lololol............a sure sign he's feeling threatened by someone who's mounting a convincing counter argument to his position. He's done to others before so beware.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:33 PM

Inexplicably, the pound has done quite well this week. Bought another couple of hundred euros, I have... I just hope the buggers will let me into Europe! I hear that a no-deal brexit could lead to passport delays amounting to five hours per aeroplane load. Didn't see that on the side of a bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:17 AM

Irrational bile sounds good to me. Now let's leave this where it is eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:19 AM

It could be argued that people who dismiss as Irish people who came from Scotland several hundred years ago are 'racist', and, indeed, at least one Irish (as apparently defined by Jim) historians have suggested that at times Irish Nationalism has been tainted by 'racist' views of what being Irish is. Do people whose origins were, say, Muslim count as Irish in Jim's 'origins' based definition I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM

"It could be argued that people who dismiss as Irish people who came from Scotland several hundred years ago are 'racist', and, indeed, at least one Irish (as apparently defined by Jim)"
I have called nobody but you and Iains racist Karen - you both have sterotyped Irish people - you are "killing each other" - Iarins as "bogtrotters" - as racist in my book as it gets
In 1922 Britain forced through a treaty which deliberately created a sectarian (not racist) state giving the power to the two thirds majority - an unequal state in terms of property ownership, voting rights and employment.
That led to nearly half a century of sectarian based violence and culminated in open warfare
Members of my own family, including two small children, were driven from their home with only what they could carry in suitcases and on a pushchair containing th youngest child
When protests demanding Civil Rights broke out in the late sixties, peaceful demonstrators were directed by the police, through screaming mobs of Loyalist bigots - the result, several years of open warfare
None of this was racist - it was down to a sectarian state created and supported by Westminster
Now the same Westminster is still using the same sectarian group to keep its Government in office, sing teh British taxpayers money to do so
The consequences of Brexit are quite likely to lead to a renewal of violence between the two communities and until the Little Englanders over the water get their head around that fact, that will remain a threat
This has never been about race - the ordinary Irish people get on well together when they are not being used by England (Westminster is equally well-able to use the other national groups in Britain when it suits their purpose
Yours and you new friend's stereotyping of the Irish people is a disgrace
I suggest your go read a book, I doubt if your friend is able
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:03 AM

Of course Jim is clearly guilty of being in violation of The European Union Framework Decision for Combating Racism and Xenophobia (2007)

The text establishes that the following intentional conduct will be punishable in all EU Member States:

    - Publicly inciting to violence or hatred, even by dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.

The deliberately mishandled famine which wiped out a million and drove out another million over five years
This is a thinly veiled accusation of genocide and should be dealt with accordingly.
I trust the bitter old racist bigot feels proud of himself! He stands condemned by his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM

It is quite amusing in its way that 'senior Tory MPs soften opposition to Brexit deal' in the Guardian's phrase. In short, Brady of amendment fame has recommended the acceptance of the deal to the 1922 committee if Cos can come back with a form of words to reassure them the border agreement is temporary. They seem to have forgotten that it was declared to be so 8 December 2017 "JOINT REPORT FROM THE NEGOTIATORS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED KINGDOM GOVERNMENT ON PROGRESS DURING PHASE 1 OF NEGOTIATIONS UNDER ARTICLE 50 paragraphs 42-56, which make use of phrases like "In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union" which make plain that these arrangement would end if an agreed alternative is in place.


There can be as much flannel as you wish says that the EU and UK do want to reach such an alternative agreement, but I think it is 100% certain any new words Cox brings back will keep that line: everything stays in place until a new agreement is reached.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

TO NO-ONE IN PARTICULAR
A WIDER VIEW - NOT PARTICULARLY FOR "BOGTROTTER RACISTS"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

Can I just hastily add a comment aimed at those of us who agree that we don't respond to a serial abuser
The Irish Question has once again become a major feature of British politics
We have two posters who have decided to adopt a racist attitude towards the Irish (one always has done)
For the sake of clarity, the subject needs to be nipped in the bud now before it gets a toe-hold
I have said what I believe needs to be said - as far as I am concerned, it ends there
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

"But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide."

Now are you paying attention jimmie?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:29 AM

An interesting clip

EU army?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uggLsHDEk4

Oh what a twisted web we weave........

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

It is not 'racist' but a matter of historical fact that Irish people have killed other Irish people. Much of this happened in what was called 'The Troubles'. Jim himself accepted this when he said he supposed that Brexit might lead to a return to 'sectarian violence'. Note the word 'return'. On that basis he accepts the historical facts, which are that Irish people have killed eachother. I think I might have used words such as 'murdered' and also 'tarred and feathered' and 'punishment shootings' as well, none of which makes me racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM

"It is not 'racist' but a matter of historical fact that Irish people have killed other Irish people."
As Brits have killed Brits and any other nationality that gets in their way
You used your racist accusation to justify partitioning Ireland yet it was the creation of a sectarian state by Britain along with the propping up of a sectarian minority that seet one group against the other
"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder each other"
Your Little Englander ignorance of the Irish question is breathtaking in its shallowness and your suggestion that the Irish would continue to slaughter each other is as racist as it gets
I really thought that sort of mentality died with the empire that used it to control most of the world
It is [petty significant that throughout the Troubles, despite claims such as yours, that the troops were only there to keep the peace, the Army carefully chose which side it was on and assisted that side in every way possible
The British establishment is still sprinting around like a blue-arsed fly attempting to cover up some of the atrocities it was part in and prevent the perpetrators having to stand trial for their actions

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/northern-ireland-backstop-the-troubles-theresa-may-brexit-european-union-red-lines-a8803336.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:01 AM

Let's all leave the deluded old fool in the wilderness where he belongs.

Meanwhile little gems from Guido the font of all political truths!

Strong competition within the Shadow Cabinet this morning for most brazenly dishonest line on a second referendum…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

Like every post from Guido it's says absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM

It would be misleading to suggest that Ireland was the only place British rule left a mess being it of course
The Empire left a mess for the residents to mop up WHEREVER THEY PUT THEIR BIG FEET
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:46 AM

My partner has informed my that Czech businesses are expecting to face losses of 30 billion Korun (about £1 bn) if UK leaves the EU. If that happend, UK tax payers must compensate Czech companies for the damage the nasty British little shits are doing to their betters. If they don't then they are no better than excrement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:06 AM

https://order-order.com/2019/03/03/long-bailey-labour-arent-looking-overturn-referendum/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM

900!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:51 AM

Happy Birthday Baccy
You don't look a day over 89
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:39 PM

Back to the thread topic.

Restaurant critic A.A. Gill writing about Brexit in the Times before his death in Dec 2016. Words of great wisdom which our resident Brexit-Brigade would do well to consider, educate themselves, and get back to reality...

“It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me.
She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

"It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

"Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

"We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

"The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity. And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

"All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

"There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them. The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

"Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty

"We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

"Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

"When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

"Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

"Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’

"You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

"Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

"The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

"No time for walls: the best of Europe, from its music and food to IM Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre, depends on an easy collision of cultures.

"There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

"The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

"Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

"I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

yawm!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:23 PM

Jim

I will just say once again that it was YOU who predicted that Brexit would lead to a return to "sectarian violence". You, yourself, personally.

Can't be bothered to respond to your twistings of what I posted and what I think.

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:46 PM

You're calling me a 'Little Englander'?

WHAT that is THAT about? It's all in your head, Jim.

"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder each other". I'm standing by that: I think that this is precisely why the line was drawn where it was: because otherwise there would have been more bloodshed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

Maybe, rather than spouting about DUP 'bigots' (are there no Catholic bigots?) and using the pejorative word 'Prods', Jim should think about some of the initiatives shown here, which also shows the depths of the problems:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47373925

The bit that caught my attention was 'children as young as two already exhibit signs of sectarian bigotry'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM

Backwoodsman, may I say that I prefer your postings without fecal expletives. I managed to read the first five or six paragraphs of your posting before giving up. It will hit the spot for remainers but for this leaver it is just a squashed toothpaste tube of irrelevant diatribe.

We are not leaving Europe. We are leaving the European Union. The European Union is a political construct that follows the pattern of the failed Roman Empire and the failed Catholic church. It is a hierarchical power structure that focuses power out of the hands of the demos into the hands of an elite. Long and soon may it fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:00 PM

The European Union is a trading bloc first and foremost. It sets standards for trade as high as anywhere in the world. You can't have a trading bloc of 28 fiercely independent nations without politics. But nearly everything agreed by those countries is agreed by consensus. Any nation or commission who gets above itself is at the mercy of a very powerful veto structure. There is no European army because it has been vetoed by the UK. There is no ever-closer union because the UK doesn't want it. If you think that leaving is taking back control, come back in a couple of years' time, Stanron, and tell me how we've stopped the US from taking control of our trading standards. Do remember to tell us how to get the chlorine out of your Sunday roast. Remember to tell us how those hormones in your beef are helping to make your mouth water, and tell us triumphantly how you've taken back control of our food quality. The trouble is, Stanron, that every time you come on here posting about brexit you bring nothing apart from brainless received wisdom. You've never actually looked into anything first, never. I can only assume that you acquire your unthinking opinions from those braying Question Time audiences. It's a real shame, old chap. But you're not untypical, unfortunately for the well-being of this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM

The European Union is not a trading bloc first and foremost. We had that with the EEC. Various treaties since then changed the Economic Community to a Political Community. If you don't have the intellectual chops to actually understand what has gone on since then you shouldn't post your misunderstandings here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:56 PM

What absolute nonsense. Approximately half our trade, imports and exports, is with the EU. About one percent of our GDP is tied up with the EU and almost half of that is tied up with agriculture (and agriculture comprises around 0.75% of our GDP). Hardly any of our domestic laws that are not connected with EU trade and agriculture have anything to do with the EU. The EU has no say over our domestic legal system, our currency, our taxation policy or anything else to do with the way we decide to run the place. We have to abide by high standards of democracy, human rights and food safety. Any objection to that, Stanron, or would you rather have us dictated to by a country with far lower standards who don't need us though we need them? You can't win here, Stan, unless you turn yourself into a Boris. Thing is, some of us, unlike you, have bothered to look things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:08 PM

Approximately half our trade is with an economy which is failing into recession. You think we should devote ourselves to support that?. I think we should align ourselves with a secure future outside of the EU. You talk about our being dictated to by the US. We are now dictated to by the EU. You cannot provide any evidence that EU authority is better for the UK than proposals by the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:23 PM

No, but we can read the bloody papers. Anyone for enforced chlorine chicken and hormonal beef, which we will have to take whether we like it or not because we've decided to take back control? Thing is, Stanron, I've given you some particular issues but all you can do is flail about with predigested generalities. Do try to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 02:32 AM

Of the approx. 34,000 laws on the UK 's statute book, only around 4,500 have been influenced by the EU. Of those approx. 4,500 laws, only 72 were 'forced on us' - i.e. we were out-voted and had to accept the decision of the majority. 72 laws out of a total of 34,000. Hardly a case of being 'controlled by' the EU, is it?

And regarding 'Elites', who do you think has driven the BrexShit campaign for the purposes of their own financial gain? Why it's the UK 's own Elite of course - shady, immensely wealthy characters in the shadows, acting for no other purpose than their own, huge financial interests, pushing the buttons of the bigots, the xenophobes, the Union-Jack-boxers-brigade, the easily-led, and the feeble-minded, in order to get their way. You think you're 'Taking Back Control', but you've been bamboozled by the UK's own Elite into giving them complete control, and their purpose has nothing to do with your best interests. And, of course, the controls which the EU currently have in place to rein-in their excesses will no longer apply after BrexShit. As Al Jolson famously said, "You ain't see nothing yet!".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 03:10 AM

The weird thing, BWM, is that the people who are spouting the Brexit mantra are happy to believe the far right of the Tory party and UKIP, would like to to trade with Trump and countries far more totalitarian than the EU, yet try to tell us that Corbyn is too extreme and the EU is the big bogeyman. Do you see the pattern here? It is not entirely their own fault. The right wing media and puppet masters of the government are extremely powerful and have done their jobs well. It is up to us to try to destroy their grip on politics. Revolution no longer needs to use violence. Education released us from the thrall of the church. It will do the same with the new religion that has Murdoch as pope but it will take a while. The dinosaurs on here will die out and the young will shake their heads in disbelief.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

And with regard to Stanron's comment about my 'Fæcal expletives', it's my opinion that Brexit really is absolute shit, and everyone, including the Muppets who voted for it, will end up eating it. Therefore I reserve the right to continue to draw everyone's attention to that, and 'Brexshit' it will remain in anything and everything I post on the subject.

If anyone doesn't like it, I really don't give a rat's arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

I am not wholly swayed by the idea Brexit is largely driven by the elite protecting their financial interests. However when bills are pulled apparently because of money laundering amendments it raises questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

Arrff, arrff, arrff...something to give us a smile as the BrexShit catastrophe continues to roll on and on.

Hilarious - or it would be if Grayling wasn't such an utter twunt, but apparently an 'Untouchable' as far as The Praying Mantis is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 12:56 PM

Dave and the backwoodsman seem to admit the ridiculous eventuality of what's coming and the super rich may welcome it OR NOT depending on the version of reality they will see.. So why not let them see what is coming with a 'virtual' or a 'soft opening' of Brexit RIGHT NOW
Never mind the Schwartzfield equation reasoning for this but its time to throw the fear of god at those who reside in the black hole of untold wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

Backwoodsman, If May chooses to hand back her library ticket that is her choice. I choose not to give mine back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

OK Donuel, if we have a trial 'Brexit' then let that include consular officiels at every point of entry in the EU (at no cost to the tax payer) to intervene in case a fascist border-official tries to prevent freedom of movement for UK nationals. Lets have a commitment whereby every time a UK national is denied a single benefit of EU membership, that this is automatically escalated into a full diplomatic incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:03 AM

More gloomy reports about a no deal Brexit this time from BMW who suggest that jobs would be at risk in their Cowley plant if no deal is reached over Brexit. This is on top of a similar warning from Toyota.

Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/05/bmw-mini-cowley-no-deal-brexit-toyota

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

Interesting discussion of the future validity of driving licenses held by British citizens domiciled here

"Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?"
APPARENTLY NOT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM

If police outside of UK try to fine motorists for not having an IDP, just need to say that they must send the penalty notice for the personal attention of May, and UK tax payers or the Conservative party, or Department of Transport employees will pay it. No further discussion required.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM

So I wonder how the brexiteers will spin the loss of a British icon such as the mini? Thats taking out country back, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

THEY'LL PROBABLY MINIMISE IT'S IMPORTANCE
jIM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:56 PM

Yebbut, yebbut, yebbut..."Weer taking are cuntry back".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM

Yeah. Back to the stone age.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

Precisely, Bonnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:27 AM

A piece in today's Guardian entitled "Food fight: doubts grow over post-Brexit standards" not only highlights in some detail the poor agricultural practices in the US which are bound to cause conflict in negotiations for any trade deal but also must have us doubting whether we can reach any sort of deal with the US at all (even Toryboy George Eustice has those doubts). If you think it's just about the talismanic chlorinated chicken spat, read the piece. That particular example of fowl play is just the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

The FDA allows up to 4% of a can of cherries to have maggots, 5% if they are brined or Maraschino. Up to one maggot or five fly eggs per 250ml of canned fruit juice is also allowed under American food regulations.
Tomato juice is good, you can have up to five fly eggs and one maggot per 100g of tomato juice. Fifteen fly eggs and one maggot per 100g is allowed for tomato paste and other pizza sauces. Mushrooms are really sexy, mushrooms you can have twenty maggots of any size per 100g of drained mushrooms or per 15g of dried mushrooms. That's twenty maggots of any size.
It means thatAmericans at the moment are on average are likely to ingest between one and two pounds of flies, maggots and mites each year without knowing it.

"Now the FDA say that's safe and they're probably right and the future of protein consumption is probably going to involve more and more insects

The eggs, larvae, pupae, and adults of certain insects have been eaten by humans from prehistoric times to the present day. Around 3,000 ethnic groups practice entomophagy. Human insect-eating is common to cultures in most parts of the world, including Central and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, and New Zealand. Eighty percent of the world's nations eat insects of 1,000 to 2,000 species. In some societies entomophagy is uncommon or taboo. Today, insect eating is uncommon in North America and Europe, but insects remain a popular food elsewhere, and some companies are trying to introduce insects as food into Western diets. FAO has registered some 1,900 edible insect species and estimates that there were, in 2005, some two billion insect consumers worldwide. They suggest eating insects as a possible solution to environmental degradation caused by livestock production.


Bush Tucker Man

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

What bothers me a bit about the chlorinated chicken spat is how it is all being presented about food safety. When the subject cropped up a while back a survey suggested that animal welfare was a big concern to UK consumers, not just food safety.

How convenient it is to forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:26 AM

Iains, thats a diversionary tactic, this isn't about eating insects, it is about bacteria, growth hormones and antibiotics. Yes I would be prepared to eat insects. But not ones produced to US food hygiene standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

I wonder what the yanks on here think about their chlorinated chicken, hormonal beef and the rest. I suppose not many of them bother clicking on brexit threads (which could indicate that they enjoy a higher level of sanity than we Brits).

I'm reminded of the graffiti I saw on a toilet cubicle wall when I was at Imperial College in 1969: "Eat shit. 150,000,000 flies can't be wrong."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

Try to ignore him, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

David Carter.I suspect in the US the agenda is driven by multinational
"food" companies whereas in the EU it is driven by faceless bureaucrats.
Difficult to determine which is the better for looking after the consumer. Superficially it would appear no contest. In detail perhaps a slightly different story emerges. Neither is on the side of angels.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM

Germany’s prestigious IFO Institut has crunched the numbers on the economic impact of no deal on 44 countries and predicted that Ireland would be hit three times harder than the UK by a no-deal Brexit, taking a massive 8.16% hit to their economy. Guido hears that Ireland has been the main EU27 country holding out against any reference to the UK’s basic Vienna Convention treaty rights over the backstop.

I stated this some months back and was laughed at.

It is not a situation for anyone to laugh over. Ireland's intransigence will create no winners, just losers.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/06/german-economists-no-deal-will-hit-ireland-three-times-harder-uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM

To my knowledge no one has ever suggested that Brexit would not have a detrimental effect on Ireland, in particular, and the EU in general.

IF perchance I am incorrect perhaps you could show us all the post(s) that said as much.

However I will not hold my breath as I know you will be unable to do so.

Idiot.

9 and counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

Every time I linger on the topic of Brexit I think of that classic Goon Show moment (on the radio):

Narrator:
"Cheer up, dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet. . .

It's finished. . .


NOW!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:51 PM

And so it goes on.

Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy.


Primark

Any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

From the Washington Post

Britain is one of the richest and most
advanced democracies in the world. It is
currently locked in a room, babbling away to
itself hysterically while threatening to blow
its own kneecaps off. This is what nationalist
populism does to a country.

Very astute :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

Laters poll from Northern counties show 76% opposed to British policy, 67% opposed to DUP handling of Bexit and 67% wish to remain in Europe
Britain is now relying on the support of a party that does not have its own people's support
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:51 AM

PM says if deal fails we may never leave EU

Sounds like the end game to me.

If she succeeds she will claim the credit for getting the best deal

If she fails she will claim others sabotaged it and it is their fault

Gawd, I hate politicians...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:17 AM

And that is precisely what I predicted when she became PM.

FINGERS CROSSED!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM

From the Guardian:

Ms Leadsom said she was still hopeful of a breakthrough, but added it would depend on the EU "coming to the table and taking seriously the [UK's proposals]".


====

Still not understanding that the EU has no other obligation than to defend its own interests, and that it is the EU not the UK that decides what the EU's interests are, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:17 AM

All part of the Deflection-Policy of the Tories, they do it on every issue - usually involving either inaccurate references to the last Labour government and the 2008 worldwide financial crash, or of the "Look over there - Corbyn anti-semitism/enemy of the people/friend of terrorists/allotment produce-show cheat" kind.

On this occasion they are trying to deflect the blame for their own incompetence and stupidity on to the EU's negotiating team. The BrexShiteer-Muppets might - or should that be will - fall for it, but those of us who aren't so stupid know where the blame truly lies, and it's not with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

A Friend just sent me this from one of teh Irish papers
Telling us what we already knew, of course
Jim
Science has dim view of Brexiteers’ brains
Jonathan Leake
Science Editor
It is a belief that some pro- Europeans already hold dear but a group of scientists now claim to have confirmed it: Brexit voters are less bright than remainers.
Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and prone to accepting the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.
“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers, based at the University of Missouri.
Social scientists are increasingly interested in how personality affects voting. Authoritarian people, who favour conformity and obedience, make up about a third of the population. In America, they account for a higher proportion of voters for Donald Trump.
The research suggests that there may be similar divides in the UK. “Participants expressing an intent to vote to leave reported significantly higher levels of authoritarianism and conscientiousness... than those voting to remain,”
researchers said in a paper submitted to the Public Library of Science journal.
Nigel Farage, the MEP and former Ukip leader, said the research was “divisive and arrogant. Remain voters may have higher IQs but I’m not sure many could boil an egg or set up a business. They are well primed for the public sector and living off the taxpayer. The authoritarianism line is strange as leave voters want to be free while remain voters back an undemocratic authoritarian regime. What you can’t measure in IQ tests is patriotism which is a strong driver with leavers. Whether that’s rational or not is a separate question.”
Perhaps the key finding, however, is not about the brain power of leavers and remainers but the risk of using referendums to decide complex issues. Many voters, the scientists conclude, “lack the skills to critically evaluate information... raising a fundamental question as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner- takes-all, referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding complicated political issues.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:40 AM

Switzerland’s direct democracy system has worked very well since 1848.

We have people claiming to be well educated scientists posting on this forum. It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

The problem is not whether a direct democracy can work in a written constitution which describes how all the bits fit together - it can - or whether an evolved, indirect democracy like ours can work - it can - but how you get both approaches to fit together without any arbitration system to say which has priority when. And it is not good enough for either approach to declare 'we do'.

But in the light of crucial defining decisions being taken in the next few days, or being shirked, I would suggest a debate on the merits of direct or indirect democracy is perhaps not the main issue of importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM

"It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct."
Said the feller who insists on interminably infects this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM

"It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct."
Said the feller who insists on interminably infects this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger"

My perception is that 'the feller who insists on interminably infecting this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger' is the only one here gormless enough to fall for the masked criminal blogger's horse-shit. So, in that context, whatever gormless horse-shit he posts is completely irrelevant. Hence, most of the sane ones here ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM

Yes, well Iains, direct democracy might work here too if only we had Swiss people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

However the fact you all attack the messenger suggests his message is not only accurate but hits the places others cannot reach.


https://leveson.sayit.mysociety.org/hearing-8-february-2012/mr-paul-staines

A response to the Leveson enquiry:
Something that I think you might have overlooked is that I'm a citizen of a free republic, and since 1922 I don't have to pay attention to what a British judge orders my countrymen to do.


Mr Barr

And at times when you are breaking big news stories, what sort of visitor rates do you attract then?
Mr Paul Staines

I think at the peak we were getting 100,000 an hour. In an average month, we would have certainly hundreds of thousands, maybe up to a million readers, or a million different browsers come to our website.
Mr Barr

You operate also on Twitter. How many followers do you have?
Mr Paul Staines

60,000-odd.


Do you think a million browsers a day come for a diet of horse shit?

Your argument is vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:25 AM

David W need to remember that this poster only ever posts ONLY THE USEFUL BITS after the awkward truths have been carefully removed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:34 AM

Why on earth are you giving a link to an obscure blog that is linked to the following:
This entry was posted in Small States and tagged AfD, BNP, British National Party, Burka, burqa, citizenship, Front National, immigration, ius sanguinis, Nationale Aktion, Nationale Aktion gegen die Überfremdung von Volk und Heimat, naturalization, overforeignization, populism, right-wing, Schweizerische Volkspartei, SVP, Swiss People's Party, Switzerland, Trump, Überfremdung on February 5, 2017

All that is missing is a reference to Nazis and Jews.
Shameful behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:06 AM

Something that many of us commented on at the time was that the decision to leave the UK was founded on the voting of predominantly older people.

This has been borne out by a recent survey of the 2 million people eligible to vote now who were too young at the time. The survey shows that 74% of them would vote remain.

As Brexit will probably affect them far more, and at least far longer, than it will the aging population who voted for Brexit it would not seem unreasonable to have another vote.

Young voters

However I cannot see the Brexiteers being swayed by this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:23 AM

"As Brexit will probably affect them far more, and at least far longer, than it will the aging population who voted for Brexit it would not seem unreasonable to have another vote."

And one free from the baleful, deceitful, criminal influence of one Arron Banks, preferably.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

A blog from a right wing site to show that Switzerland is not as democratic as it seems "shameful behaviour - now we really are blowing for tugs (after your "paado" accusation efforts sank without trace)
Would you rather dismiss it as "left wing shite" as you usually do ?
As I said before - only the useful bits get through your trawling
nets
Weeren't you the feller passing around the "free poor, misjudged Tommy Robinson" petitions ?
You're a not particularly funny (and certainly not very bright) joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

Backward man you are a tad behind the curve.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/304.html

In this claim for judicial review, the Applicants contend that the Respondent's decision to notify and the notification itself were unlawful because they were based upon the result of a referendum that was itself unlawful as a result of corrupt and illegal practices, notably offences of overspending committed by those involved in the campaign to leave the EU. Alternatively, it is said that the Respondent erred in law in not responding to the subsequent evidence of those practices as it emerged.

On 10 December 2018, following a full day's hearing, Ouseley J refused permission to proceed with the judicial review on the basis of both delay and want of merit, and ordered the Applicants to pay the Respondent's costs summarily assessed in the sum of £17,256.

The Applicants applied for permission to appeal that Order. That application came before this court on 21 February 2019 when, after hearing substantial argument, we indicated that we would refuse permission to appeal on all grounds and would give our reasons at a later date. In this judgment, I set out my reasons for that refusal.

with any luck it cost them loadsamoney!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:30 PM

Arw you really threatening me on Guido's behalf ?
Bring it on
Thought you might have been one of his employees

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM

I wonder if either of our two Brexiteers have anything to say about the 2 million potential new voters if there were to be a second vote.

I also wonder what our two Brexiteers have to say about the numerous Insurance, Banking and Finance organisations programming some of their affairs to leave the UK.

I know I have asked this question many times, as yet I have not had a response.

....................???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM

Of course there is good news about brexit, Raggy. Come March 29, or maybe April 1, there will be a return to cricket on the village green, hot summers and snowy winters. There will be lashings of ginger beer, girls in gingham dresses, boys will call us sir and Johnny Foreigner will know his place. There will be no need for froggy cheese, kraut sausage or eyetye plonk as warm beer, mash and spotted dick will, once again, rule the waves.

What could possibly go wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM

I quite like warm beer, mash and spotted Dick ..............

However I am half way through a bottle of Chateau Neuf du Pape !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

Come March 29, or maybe April 1,
You have made the same slip up, Dave, that I did a while back and leapt from the 29th (30th in Brussels time) to the 1st April, omitting the 31st. But let's not draw attention to it - someone might notice...

Of course, the 1st April as all fool's day may have swayed us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM

"Come March 29, or maybe April 1, there will be a return to cricket on the village green,"
Did you not hear about the plans to enclose all village greens in order to pay another bung to the DUP !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:34 PM

We'll not need to pay bungs, Jim. Once we return to our rightful place in the world everyone will just do as we say. We never had to pay bungs before we joined the common market.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:31 PM

An observation.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming.

Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

Backward man you are a tad behind the curve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:40 PM

No interaction at all, Steve. You know it makes sense :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:46 PM

I wasn't interacting, Dave. I was making a purely objective, in this case eyebrow-raising, observation. Whoever it was who posted those two posts, I didnt interact, merely observe. It would be good to think that the mods also observe. But who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:59 PM

"No interaction at all, Steve. You know it makes sense :-)"
Spoilsport
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:24 PM

It would be good to think that the mods also observe.

Holmes to Watson: "You see, but you do not observe."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:01 AM

According to the Guardian today:

The prime minister pledged in parliament to put her deal to the Commons on Tuesday but she is being urged by senior Conservative MPs to pull the vote if she fails to secure significant concessions from Brussels.
Leading Tories have warned Downing Street it could face a three-figure defeat similar to the historic 230-vote loss in January if the government goes ahead.
They have advised her instead to replace the vote with a motion setting out the kind of Brexit deal that would be acceptable to Tory MPs to keep the party together and put pressure on Brussels.

======

You have to admit she has form in pulling votes. I have been dubious of the Labour idea that they will drop the Kyle amendment from Tuesday, and bring it in later, perhaps on Wednesday or Thursday. The risk of that approach is she could hold Tuesdays vote then pull the others. I wonder if these 'senior Tories' genuinely believe the EU will respond to such "pressure" or if is no more than a technique to reach the 29th so we drop out automatically.

I don't think she will pull Tuesday vote. I think it quite possible what she says immediately afterwards will show she will continue to push for her deal while doing her best to block any alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM

I didn't slip up btw, DMcG. March 29th is a Friday. Everyone knows that before those upstart Europeans started to dictate what their betters should do, weekends were sacrosanct and nothing got done. As March 30 and 31 will be spent watching football and going to church, April the first will be the first proper day of our glorious past re-invented. And very apt it is :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:19 AM


I didn't slip up btw, DMcG.

That's fine. I did, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:31 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:11 AM

Hunt on TV this morning, and the revolting Mark Francois (surprised he hasn't changed his name), all the other tory MPs, to them all thats important is keeping the tory party intact. Far more important than the welfare of the people of the country. Not one of them is making the case that the people will be better off out of the EU. They can't because they know it's not true. But to them we are simply collateral damage, sacrificed in the interests of the tory party. If they had any decency they would be working for a compromise, such as Corbyn's customs union proposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:24 AM

Here is a fairly old clip of my MP, Royston Smith. In the first minute or so he lists why he voted to leave.

What is striking it that the reasons are all about him: not once does he say it is in the countries best interests. The closest he gets is saying he thinks that the country can stand on its own two feet. Sure it can, but that does not mean it will be as tall as it was!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM

Brexiters fall into two camps, the extremely selfish such as those who have hedged against the UK economy, and the utterly deluded, who were taken in by the lies on the side of a bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:00 AM

Leavers fall into two camps, the stupid and the dangerously stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM

Or should that be remainers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:11 AM

I think that there are some leavers who are not stupid or dangerously stupid, but just dangerous, because they see brexit as an opportunity for personal financial gain at the expense of the rest of us. Such as hedge fund managers shorting the British economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM

Stanron, all the others Brexiteers have refused repeatedly to respond to any of my questions regarding if the UK will be as well off, if not better off, post Brexit.

Almost every report from every source to date has been negative. The Banking, Insurance and Finance Industries are setting up offices overseas, the car industry is in disarray, multiply other industries are moving at least some of their operations into the Eurozone and even arch Brexiteer Rees Mogg has opened on office of his Somerset Investment company in Dublin.

So tell me how is the UK going to benefit from Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM

Well, one of them repeatedly says "we are leaving on 29th March" when asked. That is possible but hardly certain, so I wonder what replaces that non-answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 08:20 AM

I am waiting for May to
make a gaurantee that if EU 27 denies fredom of movement to a single UK national that this will be treated as a major diplomatic incident. If not then May, and everyone who voted for her party is a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:25 PM

If the French suggestion works for Calais, why not for Ireland?

As any self-respecting Brexit pundit will be more than happy to remind us, smart borders featuring mythological things like remote customs declarations and automated number plate checking are simply “unicorns” which aren’t likely to be possible for hundreds, if not thousands of years. They certainly won’t be suitable for any post-Brexit border crossings…

Which is why French Customs have just unveiled a “smart border” – an “innovative technological solution” which will be implemented on 29 March 2019 “at all points of entry/exit to/from the Calais region and at border points from Channel-North Sea to maintain smooth circulation of your goods.”

From Guido of course

https://order-order.com/2019/03/11/france-unveils-technological-smart-border-solution/

and for the nonbelievers, some french unicorns below!

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/articles/a16171-the-smart-border

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:38 AM

If the French suggestion works for Calais, why not for Ireland?

You mean apart from the fact a port is completely different in scale to a 499km border, that all the French system achieves is to separate the traffic into red and green channels where the red have to be checked, that building such infrastructure as the channels is expressly prohibited by the withdrawal agreement and that the police of Ireland have expressed serious security concerns about any attempt to have such infrastructure? Give me a minute and I will think of something.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:47 AM

Good news about brexit. We dodge the biometric ID cards.



http://www.statewatch.org/news/2019/feb/eu-frontex-visas-ilos-id-cards.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:49 AM

I know there's nothing even remotely amusing about all this, but I loved this one, from a Comments section under a Guardian article:

"By the way, if anyone is under the misapprehension that Trump is going to help Britain with a favorable trade deal after Brexit, they've got another thing coming. When the wolf sees a lamb straying from the herd, he's not going to channel his inner Border Collie. He sees dinner."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:09 AM

he's not going to channel his inner Border Collie. He sees dinner."

I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

Another amusing exchange from the same Comments section:

"The backstop needs to be well oiled, greased, lathered with WD40 and shoved well and truly up ERG arses, that should shut them up for a while."

"Really? Do we have to pre-lube the thing?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:26 AM

An observation worth repeating and further reinforcing.

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

"Now you have clarified who you were insulting, you may perhaps find a reckoning in a more public forum forthcoming."

Eleven minutes later from the same poster:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

"Backward man you are a tad behind the curve."

And then:

"Not only besandled and besotted but also oblivious"

And just now:

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

By the way, folks, if you can read this thank a teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM

Please don't feed the animals Steve - they'll only come back for more :->
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:59 AM

"I fink you mean fox dear boy. Having your sheepdogs feast on lamb is a proven unsuccessful business model. But finance is hardly your strong point, having suckled on the public teat all your life. Twould seem for all your years in the countryside you have learnt precious little."

And I think, silly boy, you completely misunderstood Steve's post. Not 'arf as clever as you try to pretend you are, are you?

Stick to quoting 'Semen' Staines - that's about your level.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

Indeed he did. I know a few people in real life who you can't have a proper conversation with because they're not listening to you. Instead, they're thinking of the next "clever" thing to say. It's not very grown-up, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM

> people in real life who you can't have a proper conversation with because they're not listening

Like the current PM. And I think the consequences are just about to rear up and bite her on the butt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM

Hopefully!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM

Well, I see she has blown it again. Will no one rid us of this turbulent pest?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:14 PM

In answer to May's speech saying she would be holding the votes on Wednesday and Thursday, Corbyn said he would be bringing the previously rejected Labour version of Brexit back to the house. Even if the house were to accept it, which is very doubtful, the question arises whether the EU will be prepared to enter another long period of negotiation. As I have said before, I don't find red unicorns any more believable than blue ones. There are things in the Labour proposal that will be as objectionable to the EU as the ones from the Tories.

I think the probability is we will need more than this lets-talk-about-something-else approach to stop a no deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:21 PM

She's not bloody giving in. That's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:36 PM

So, does this latest vote mean Remain? I am unclear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM

So, does this latest vote mean Remain? I am unclear.

No, nor do the votes tomorrow or the day after mean remain. It is, perhaps, a step in that direction, but equally it could be a step towards the no-deal brink if Parliament fritters away the few days left on irrelevancies or agreeing things that the EU cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM

EU needs to forget about the self-serving Tory party politics which were responsible for the referendum, and pull their fingers out and come up with a deal that protects all the rights of UK pro-Europeans.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:02 PM

And UK parliament must prioritise legislation that legally enforces car park attendants/local authorities to recognise blue badges issued across the EU in all UK car parks that recognise UK blue badges.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:04 PM

EU needs to ... pull their fingers out and come up with a deal that...

I am afraid not: the EU does not have to come up with anything. The UK has to come up with something that is at least good enough to convince the EU it merits an extension. I agree with you the proposed deal should protect those rights, but it is up to the UK to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 05:49 PM

Piling disgrace on disgrace, May is failing to whip her MPs tomorrow to oppose no-deal.

I use my mum's blue badge everywhere, SPB (only when she's with me, of course). I wasn't aware of the issue you mention. I think I'd better check...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:29 PM

Oops, sorry, SPB, I misread your point about blue badges so my comment about my mum is irrelevant. However, when I looked into it a while back I thought I found that the blue badge scheme has a reciprocal agreement across the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

Nobody wants this Brexit - it's time to grow up, and ditch this miscarriage of democracy


Not much respect for the tabloids but this article tells it as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:10 AM

Nobody wants this Brexit

Perhaps he could explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then? or perhaps he uses the same abacus as Diane Abbot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

The antithesis to "Great minds think alike" is, of course, "Fools seldom differ".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:48 AM

explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then

Easy. That was then, this is now.


Aw, shit - I responded to the fool. My bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:17 PM


Nobody wants this Brexit

Perhaps he could explain what the majority vote of 17,410,742 people voted for in the referendum then?

17.4 etc voted for A Brexit, But did they vote for THIS Brexit, which is what the phrase you are commenting on says? No one at all knows: neither you, nor I, nor any of the leave campaigners, nor Parliament. In fact, it is highly likely that even at the time they were voting with different understandings of Brexit.

In the faint hope of warding off Nigel, I read 'Nobody wants this Brexit' in the common, ordinary, everyday sense of the phrase. That is, I am sure out of the 17.4million there will be a few who did, but the numbers are dwarfed by the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

"In the faint hope of warding off Nigel"

I'm going to a gig on Friday evening, just noticed the support act is some guy called Nigel Parsons...ve-e-ery interesting!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 12:38 PM

And I'll be meeting up with one of the Muskets- I'll give him everyone's best.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:48 PM

That was exactly as I read it DMcG. I

Send my regards to Ian, BWM. Not sure what to send to the other :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:21 PM

Pretty sure it's a different NP Dave.
And I'll pass your regards on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:42 PM

I am pleased to see the Malthouse compromise has been rejected by even more than May's deal. Given the EU was clear about how insane we would be to vote for somwthing rej3cred so often in the negotiations, it is one bright spot in the hookah.

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 03:43 PM

The hoo-hah. Ornate pipes not required.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 04:32 PM

I can just see the headlines in the Daily Heil.

Corbyn behind anti-semitic plot to keep us in Europe.

And the idiots will believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 05:41 PM

But less pleasing is that some Brexiteers including Ian Duncan Smith are reported to have been trying to persuade Hungary and others to veto any request to the EU for an extension. So much for hating how Brussels can overrule the UK Parliament.

A total misunderstanding of what is at stake:
As things stand we crash out on the 29th of this month.Regardless of what Parliament may vote in the meantime, only a changer in the law can negate this. There is not sufficient time to frame the required legislation,debate it in both houses and obtain Royal Assent. That is the reality.
An extension beyond the date of the European elections means the UK quota of MEPs must be elected.(This could be quite entertaining as the seats have already been re-allocated.)
More significantly, an extension gives the remainiacs more time to plot and plan their treasonous betrayal of the democratic will of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM

So you think "what is at stake" entitles MPs to try to encourage the EU to thwart Parliament's will if it decides to ask for an extension?

I believe I understand what is at stake as well as you do, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

A suggestion this morning that Bercow might use the ancient rule that a Motion may not be voted on more than once during a session to prevent May's agreement being debated and voted on for a third time.

Fingers crossed. And maybe then we will see the complete lunacy of BrexShit kicked out for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

That is a really interesting possibility, Backwoodsman. It is being suggested that the justification for bringing it back is that Cox's advice is changed because of the Vienna Convention. Now, it is true that is not in his written advice. But it was raised in the debate and his advice on the matter sought and given. So the claim the advice has changed is on very shaky ground indeed. Also that clause of Vienna Convention concerns fundamental changes in the parties concerned. A change of Prime Minister is not such a fundamental change. A change of governing party is not such a fundamental change. A complete collapse of the finances of the UK would be, but presumably those seeking to invoke it do not think that is likely. So this a fig-leaf of an excuse, not a genuine one.

Now, if Teresa May agreed to change her red lines and adopted a more consensual approach, that would be an actual change to the deal, so it could be brought back without doubt.

Some ERG members have said they would vote for the deal on condition May resigns. That takes us into, as far as I know, other uncharted constitutional waters. There is a convention that no parliament can bind its successor, so it cannot pas a law directly restricting its successors actions. It is not clear if that applies to Prime Ministers. For example, if May agreed to adopt some of Labour's ideas, and that so-amended deal was passed with those changes to the parts of the agreement that are *not legally binding*, to what extend would a PM Boris be bound to follow them? I don't think anyone knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:25 AM

It amazes me how people are still falling this 'will of the people' bollocks. 17 million people voted to leave Europe. There are 66 Million in the UK. Less than 1/3 voted to leave. Of the remaining 2/3, 16 million voted to stay. So that leaves over a 1/3 of the 'people' who's will is entirely unknown. How can this be the will of the people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

“Those who make peacful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”
JFK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:50 AM

Well we have had veiled threats of violence from Farage and others, and they don't impress or scare me. Our grandparents faced down Mosley's thugs, and our parents faced down Powell's, are our generation goint to be the once to cave in to threats of violence from brexit extremists?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

The extremists are those that refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the democratic vote.
This was by referendum
An overwhelming vote for article 50
A general election with both main parties having brexit as a major part of their manifesto.

Remainiacs are a bit like democrats. They just don't get it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

You know, Iains, it is posts like that which make people decide there is no value in engaging with you. I do so because it think it is valuable to know other peoples views, but there does come a point where the return on investment is too low to bother.

You say both parties campaigned for Brexit.

The Tories campaigned for a Brexit where having a customs partnership was ruled out.

Labour campaigned for a Brexit where a customs partnership was essential.

To suggest they are the same is on the level as claiming 'dead' and 'alive' are the same because they both contain an E and an A.

Add in the repeated dodging of the point I repeated in bold for your convenience and throw in some hint that violence might be acceptable and I find myself drawn to the group who don't respond at all.

As with Keith, it is your hands to decide if you want to raise things to discuss, or are only interested in scoring points in a competition where you are the sole entrant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM

Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:42 AM

Just put it up o the Irish tread but worth repeating here as Ireland is the main issue of Brexit
Michael Gove has announced that a Brexit crash-out will need to involve a re-establishment of Direct Rule from Westminster Britain's the interests of Britain and the Six Counties are to remain the same
This is tantamount to throwing way all the gains thet have been made since The Good Friday Agreement and will almost inevitably bring violent conflict that much nearer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

I find it hilarious that the resident wannabe 'tough-guy' who is making scarcely-veiled threats of violence on this thread, is defecating building-blocks on another thread over the prospect of a 19-year-old girl, who is an abused, brainwashed rape-victim, being allowed to return to the UK - her country of birth - from Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:56 AM

Not near as hilarious as I find your "contributions" on brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

You're going to allow this offensive clown to close this thread if you're not careful Baccy - which would suit the rightists here right down to the ground
Put yourself in their shoes; wouldn't you be embarrassed to see your Government disintegrating before your eyes and have to pretend all is well?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM

One of the amendments being debated is from Chris Bryant sayingthat the May's deal should not be brought back before Parliament. I assume the reasons will be those in Erskine May. I would be very surprised if that amendment were to pass, but if it did I think Bercow would find himself obliged to require a more significant change than the "change of advice" fig-leaf. Even if rejected, it may mean bringing MV3 becomes the final chance: MV4 could find itself ruled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

The referendum was advisory parliament always had the power to over rule ,this was not explained to people , as a result of Cromwell, parliaments powers were increased.

I predict the next conservative leader will be Sajid Javid.
I am a supporter of Jermy Corbyn,but i think the next labour leader might be Sadiq Aman Khan ., if he remains in the labour party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:27 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

You're going to allow this offensive clown to close this thread if you're not careful Baccy

I do not believe I was the one recently called a bastard. Whoever it was must have been pretty offensive. I believe anyone studying the contributions by the usual suspects will find reams of offensive comments especially directed at the recently departed Keith.

Here is how jimmy refutes an argument
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Feb 17 - 05:32 AM
Piss off you pair of racist pricks
An extremely educated, well crafted response(from a 7th or 8th grader)

Nothing sensible to say so remainiacs resort to insults, bullying and bluster as usual shortly to bring death to yet another thread.g

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

Don't respond
Don't fall for his nonsense
Don't even read his posts if at all possible

It is proven to work but some keep encouraging him. Just stop it please. It is beyond a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM

The pub must have closed - let him sleep it off
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

That's just another invitation for him to continue. Just don't encourage him. It really is very simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

So, having received no reply the first time (other than the usual abuse)m I'll ask again - why are the Brexshiteers, who constantly and vociferously proclaim their profound belief and faith in their perceived version of 'democracy', so fearful of granting the electorate their undeniable, actual democratic right to a re-vote in order to confirm their earlier opinion or, alternatively, demonstrate that they have changed their collective mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

Rhetorical question I presume BWM :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM

Precisely, Dave! Just waiting for more abuse. It's all he's got. At least I get a good laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:56 AM

I seem to recollect the gnome being publicly rebuked for his abysmal behaviour. The pots twould appear to vastly outnumber the "alleged " kettle.
Your posts are all archived, even some you thought deleted!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM

Knife crime in the UK is a serious issue. 17.4,000,000 people were stabbed in the back yesterday.

"I know people voted for Brexit for a range of reasons, but many of us did so to regain sovereignty - i.e. to take back control from an EU political elite who seem arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic. Can someone please help me understand why our own government would wish to inflame that sentiment and become the focus of it by thwarting Brexit through being arrogant, out of touch, incompetent, unaccountable and undemocratic?!?! Populism (actually anti-establishment-ism) is on the rise all across the West, and politicians seem astonishingly blind to their role in causing it."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

I repeat....

"Democracy provides for an electorate to change its opinion - that's why we have a General Election every five years. A Referendum is an expression of opinion at a fixed point in time, based on circumstances prevailing at that time. Should those circumstances change, it is not only democratic, but perfectly reasonable, to ask the electorate whether it still has the same opinion, or whether that opinion has changed.

The only 'extremists' around here are those who seek to deny the electorate its democratic right and the opportunity to either confirm its original opinion or change its mind.

What are those extremists afraid of, and why?"

Well....??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:12 PM

If this vote was democratic in the first place it would have been based on full information of what people were voting for
It was not democratic in any way, it was based on turning one group of people against the other - the worst kind of populism.
The very first result of this was an immediate rise in racist incidents
THat is now even been acknowledged by the extremist right who have realised the necessity to CLEAN UP THEIR IMAGE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:09 PM

Here's one for the remainiacs to chew on (hot off guidos press)

Sarah Wollaston’s amendment calling for a long extension to provide time for a second referendum has been crushed this evening by 334 votes to just 85

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:01 PM

So May will be asking for an extension. It may not be granted, of course, but if it is it will either be to 30 June or later.

Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:19 PM

So, how old is Britain anyway?

In America we have a birthdate for the United States. It's when we offically thumbed our nose at you guys. But who did you guys thumb your noses at? The Romans? The French? Actually it was kind of the other way around. The took Caratacus back home and paraded him through the streets in a Triumph. The French arrived (as Normans) and taught you a new language. Which you successfully absorbed in one of the great turnabout conquests of all time. (Good job on that, by the way!)

So, whence do y'all date from?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

Some reading for you - it's not straightforward...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:02 PM

Fascinating!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:35 PM

Even less straightforward!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouthshire_(historic)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 PM

Is May a goner after these votes? Who is going to grab the PM position next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM

I thought I would have a look at a betting site to see the options, knowing that 30+ names have been suggested.

People are putting money it seems on some odd choices for next Prime Minister. David Cameron, for instance. George Osborne. Chris Grayling (????), Simon Cowell, Tony Blair, Ann Widdecombe, Arron Banks ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM

Good news for April though. Going to see Stanley Accrington on the 1st to get a good laugh about Btexit and seeing Steeleye Span on the 2nd to forget about this nonsense altogether.

Who says it's all bad :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

BBC live report about 9:55 On 15th May"

 Ms May's hopes of persuading Eurosceptics and the DUP were dealt a hammer blow after the so-called star chamber of Brexiteer lawyers rejected attorney general Geoffrey Cox's latest assessment.

Led by veteran Tory Sir Bill Cash, the group said his idea that the UK could use the Vienna Convention - the international agreement that lays down the rules about treaties - to unilaterally pull out of the backstop was "badly misconceived".

======

It will be even harder to claim something has changed now as justification for Bercow to allow MV3. He will, I an sure, but I think evwryone will try to avoid explaining on what grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

Latest news. Brexit delay could be the end of May.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:29 AM

I said '15 May' in my earlier post. Obviously I meant '15th March'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM

Some of the right wing press is reporting that with the defeat of the amendment calling for a second referendum, this is no longer an option.

This is mindless balderdash. What Brexit (or indeed its revocation) is deciding is the long term relationship between the UK and the EU. A referendum can never BE that: no-one sensibly claimed it could. A second referendum is a mechanism to choose between alternative relationships. It is not, once again, a relationship in itself.

I do not support a second referendum for the same reasons I did not support the first: it is something Parliamentarians should decide. But if they cannot, votes not withstanding, SOME means of deciding is required and a referendum is one of the few choices available.

Also, that part of the press is tends to ignore that the groups arguing for a public vote requested this should not be voted on at this time, and that was clearly stated several times during the debate itself. That, along with some parliamentary rules about amendments led to Labour abstaining en mass.   It takes a deliberate obtuseness to claim this shows there is no support for the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Actually, we could both be right :)

Or indeed both wrong, such is the clarity of the moment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

I think Bercow will have to allow MV3 - it's encoded in the motion that passed yesterday. This from the Guardian at lunchtime Thursday 14th, i.e. before the results were decided:

> Parliament will vote on a motion that sets next Wednesday as the deadline for MPs to pass a Brexit deal. If a deal is passed by then, the government will seek an extension of article 50 until 30 June. But if the deal is not passed by then, the government will need a longer extension, requiring the UK to take part in European elections.

The European Council is meeting on the 21st. So there won't even be time for a MV4. I think that's why Bercow was being so cagey in his wording.

Interesting times...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d432e7a81b83c24fbadf2c94f9e9535a3dd1500c387028be3d06996de64ad150.jpg?w=600&h=261

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

This BBC report from about half an hour ago sheds a bit more light. Sort of. A little.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47579033

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Hahaha- well observed, Bonnie.

But there is a long way to go to get to 1688...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM

We should dread reaching post 1415, as Agincourt may by then have been avenged...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

We've yet to reach 1984 - sobering thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

A feudal gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM

Once again, a Brexiteer blames Remainers

You may remember Tim Martin decided to go round his pubs giving speeches in favour of Brexit. It is *just* possible, is it not, that some remainers decided to drink elsewhere as a consequence? Or that people in general don't want to be lectured when they go out for an evening out?

Pubs in general are not doing well, but for those I have seen, Martin's baby is doing appreciably less well than the average.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM

i see nigel farage and chums have set off from sunderland on an epic march for brexit and freedom. are any mudcatters accompanying the nicotine-stained man frog? can anyone update us on their progress? How many pubs passed so far?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:33 PM

I can't say about any mudcatters, but Nigel Farage has been pretty clear he has no intention of doing it. Photo-ops at the start, end, and perhaps a couple along the way, but the idea of dong the whole thing - no way!

I don't know, but my guess he has left them to it already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:21 PM

May should not bring her deal back to parliament for a third vote until she has pulled her finger out and caught up with ALL the legislative programme that has been on the back burner - including the care act green paper which is nearly 2 years late already. Until then we stay in the EU - NOT NEGOTIABLE.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

what a state of confusion, it was never explained to people that the referendum was advisory that parliament had the last say., these people could noit organise a piss up in a brewery

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

“Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.”
? Fyodor Dostoevsky
“It's funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to.”
? J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

Funny to think that she will keep having votes on the same thing until she gets the "right" result. Precisely the sentiment expressed by fear-laden brexiteers when there's a suggestion of another referendum...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM

I think this will have to be the last vote (which is probably why Bercow didn't make a ruling on it) because the European summit is on the 21st.

For weeks she's cried Wolf. Now there really IS a wolf. And a real bullet in the chamber of the gun she's been holding to the nation's head and spinning (in both senses of the word) round and round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

Well, Steve, as the Brexiteers insist she is a Remainer, I suppose that proves what they claim about remainers and repeat voting ....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: skarpi
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM

This is the BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR UK EVER , your bank loans are going to cost more , the food is going cost more , everything is going cost more , and the space between the poor and rich are going to get bigger , Iceland may not have EU ..but it´s hard living up here , everything cost so much ...and there is a saying in Iceland , which is : Þetta reddast ,it mean it will be ok some how ? ..but it does not ....if you want to go this there so many things that has to change before you do .

all the best and best of luck
Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

The default position is that we leave on the 29th, deal or no deal. Until the law is physically changed we leave on the 29th.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM

In the past, laws have gone through the entire process in less than 24 hours. Amending the date if it turns out to be required can be changed by a much simpler process than a new law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:46 AM

Well, the March edition of The New Yorker has a pretty unequivocal view of the idiocy of BrexShit and its supporters, who seem to have completely lost contact with reality and crossed into a parallel universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

"Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit "
Grasping at straws tantamount to "We've dropped you in the klarts but it's too late to do anything about it"
The people who are fighting for this are nutters like
LORD SNOOTY who, with one hand wags the flag and with the other, makes sure his own investments are safe by shifting them out of Britain
It's great to see Dyson and AND HIS FELLOW BREXITEERS doing similar - rats and sinking ship springs to mind.
THIS FELLER ACTUALLY MADE IT A PIECE OF ADVICE
UP TO DATE PICTURE HERE
What a fine mess you and yours've got Britain into Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?

Yes, since you ask. Remember that the Commons have already voted to change the date. That if the date is not changed we get a no deal which the House has also already voted against. That the change has been promised by the Government as part of the debates. That the process is via a statuary instrument, which is not necessarily a new law:

====
Mr Grieve
Just to remind the Secretary of State: there was a second part to the question, which is equally critical. It is that the Government will have to bring a statutory instrument to the House to alter the departure ?date set out in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. In those circumstances, I assume that the Government are undertaking to do exactly that.

Michael Gove
The Prime Minister and others have said that previously, and I am happy to place on the record once again at this Dispatch Box exactly that commitment.
====

Of course, the ERG will do its damnedest to disrupt the will of Parliament as expressed in its earlier votes. I would expect nothing less of them. And the Government's inability to organise anything is a significant risk. But given that it is not rare to get such things through in less than 24hours, certainly it can be done, assuming the EU have agreed an extension date.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM

There is another little subtlety that is easy to overlook. What was agreed last week was that May's deal was this:

===

(2) agrees that, if the House has passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then the Government will seek to agree with the European Union a one-off extension of the period specified in Article 50(3) for a period ending on 30 June 2019 for the purpose of passing the necessary EU exit legislation; and


(3) notes that, if the House has not passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then it is highly likely that the European Council at its meeting the following day would require a clear purpose for any extension, not least to determine its length, and that any extension beyond 30 June 2019 would require the United Kingdom to hold European Parliament elections in May 2019.

===

What is easily missed is that clause (3) applies if the negotiated agreement has not even been put to MV3. Couple this with Hammond's statement:
=======

"We will only bring the deal back if we are confident that enough of our colleagues, and the DUP, are prepared to support it, so that we can get it through parliament. We’re not going to keep presenting it if we haven’t moved the dial," said the chancellor, Philip Hammond.

=======

and the likelihood of asking the EU for a long extension increases significantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM

Whatever they has=ve done in the past they have backed a destructive policy up to the point where they realised who destructive of their own interests and have then done a runner, leaving the country the profess to acting in tehe interests of, up shit's Creel big-time
Since you've resorted to personal insulting again, you are, and always have been a rich man's arse-licker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

These patriots make me howl
They say they love Britain but the thought that British workers might actually have a say in their own lives makes 'em break out in a cold sweat and reach for the shotgun
They claim it is "Anglophobic" to criticise British policy, yet have no problem denigrating elected politics - even at a racist and sexist level, if their politics don't suit
If poor peoplke are in trounble (as in the Grenfel Tower catastrophe) ordinary British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property
Their interest lies in defending the right wing establishment and British big business and the possessions of the wealthy, the British people can go stuff themselves as far as they are concerned - establishment lackeys - the ***** lot of 'em
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

Brexit bar

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM

You are still encouraging him, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property.

I think the stupidity of that argument has been robustly refuted innumerable times but you still insist on raising it every 5 minutes.
That says a lot about the person constantly raising the issue.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission

Article 1 of the First Protocol: Protection of property.
Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM

Bercow refuses MV3 without substantial change

I admit this surprises me; I thought he would find a way to let it through. So I am sure we will hear a lot of sound and fury, while May's team is probably relieved as it looked as if they were going to pull it themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:28 PM

Ya beat me to it, DMcG. Here's the Beeb's report:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47614074

I must admit I'm surprised too. Guess the DUP aren't going to get their little moment in the spotlight after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

Mr Cromwell had the rights of it in his speech to Parliament!

20 April 1653, London, England

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place,

which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM

"You are still encouraging him, Jim."
Nah - I'm exposing himn for the eejit he is How does he react to his being exposed - he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time
This really is fun
Now we have the words of a 17th century religious zealot - gets better and better
Think I'll leave it there - he's done what I wanted tyo do far better than I ever could
State dick-suckers, the lot of them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:04 PM

From the BBC's Assistant Political Editor. Says it all.

Speaker's decision is:
- Good for Brexiteers cos it makes No Deal more likely.
- Good for Remainers cos it makes long delay more likely.
The only big loser is... the PM.

Anybody fancy a Kit-Kat?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:13 PM

he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time

Actually it is the EU protecting people's rights. I carefully explained this to you above. ............... Oh Dear !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:14 PM

Constitutional crisis
Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times
Wonder if any brewery is looking for anybody to organise piss-ups - don't look here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM

Constitutional crisis
Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times

Hardly a crisis! Bercow had wide support from both sides of the house and acted within clearly stated precedents from Erskine May that date back to the 1600's.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:24 PM

I'm getting a bit sick of Laura bloody Kuenssberg's obvious bias. She insinuated strongly on the Beeb news that Bercow has "gone beyond his remit," leaning on her possibly unjustified assertion that that is a widespread view in the Commons (has she done a poll?), when he manifestly has done no such thing. I bet the Mail's headline writers will have a field day tomorrow, and, while they won't bother, they could claim to have her onside. She sure is a worthy successor to the right-wing Nick Robinson. And I can hardly wait for Andrew Neil on Thursday night...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:57 PM

John Bercow has clearly made the only possible ruling that is allowed. He'll never get his peerage from a Tory government now, but then maybe there won’t be one around for long.

One suggested way round would be to prorogue the session, and then have a new one, and run the old deal through again. Apparently the Queen would need to approve it, but that would mean interfering in the political process - and the same would be said if she refused. Since the last time Westminster was prorogued in the middle of a session was in 1628, by Charle. Since the ultimate outcome a few years later it had him getting his head chopped off, she might perhaps be a tad disinclined to risk it.

Perhaps the next antiquated procedure they'll try reviving would be the Act of Attainder, where a person could be executed without any need for a trial, last used in 1728. I suspect they may never have got around to covering that when the death penalty was scrapped, in which case that death penalty might still apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:40 PM

She could try to put a motion which sets aside the convention, but I'm pretty sure she will never get a majority for that. There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week. I doubt it and I think they'll give her their long extension. If you take my meaning. Hope springs eternal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

Hooray! I've found a way to stop my ipad from "correcting" me like that. From now on any mistakes online will be my mistakes, I hope.

---

Previous "oops" fixed by a mudelf and correction deleted, so this post may seem non sequitur. But it's cute so it's staying. *---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 08:12 PM

Re ipad: Quick, tell me how you disable that feature. Drives me mad, that does. I spend more time deleting stuff than writing. (Not always a bad idea, though...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:47 AM

There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week

It may not be as slight as all that, thought I don't think it probable. The words 'traitor' and 'traitorous' have been widely abused and thrown at the slightest provocation, so I am hesitant about using them at all. But since a near text book example would be to encourage a foreign power to act against your government's stated wishes, I can't think of a more appropriate term for Iain Duncan Smith's and Owen Patterson's reported attempts to persuade Hungary and other countries to veto any request from the UK for an extension.

I see two routes to a no-deal as live at the moment. The more likely one is that the EU does not agree to an extension, most likely because of a veto. Should that happen, Bercow will not be able to allow a vote on the deal unless a substantial change is made, under his own ruling. So some amendment will be made to the deal - perhaps by making explicit mechanisms for the rest of Parliament to have a role in the future negotiations. Should Bercow not agree this is sufficient, or should that fail, we could be into no-deal.

The less likely one is that the EU agrees to an extension, but attaches conditions of such severity that Parliament does not accept the extension. As this would require people who votes against no-deal to now prefer it to the conditions, they would have to be very extreme.

(A third path opens if an extension permits a complete restart of the negotiations, but I do not think that is something the EU would consider.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:35 AM

Our cat Brexit yells to go out but when we open the door he just sits there undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:54 AM

The old ones are the best...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM

It's changed now, but this morning the BBC news page, in the second row under the main headline, wrote:
PM: I Will Not Speak His Name
just above a pictures of May & Bercow. Wow, I thought, she's losing it.

Then I noticed that they meant the New Zealand PM in the main story, referring to the multi-murderer. (Quite right too, deprive him of the PR.) But it gave me a wintry sort of laugh. I take my humour where I can find it these days...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

There are signs the EU is softening and may let you guys kick the can down the road despite May saying "delay is not a solution".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM

For an institution whose lineage can be traced back 804 years to Magna Carta, Parliament’s descent from consulting the people to dismissing their response has taken less than four years. It’s worth recalling some of the major stages in its decline.

"In June 2015, Parliament voted by a majority of 544 votes to 53 to hold the EU Referendum, rightly recognising that such an important constitutional question could be decided only by the electorate. On best estimates, in June 2016 Britain voted to leave the European Union by 406 parliamentary constituencies to 242. It voted to leave the European Union by 263 voting areas to 119, and by 9 regions to 3.

Conservative-held constituencies in 2016 voted to leave by 247 to 80. Labour-held constituencies in 2016 voted to leave by 148 to 84. In contrast, among 2016 MPs, Remain was the preferred option by 486 to 160.

In February 2017, MPs voted by 498 votes to 114 to trigger Article 50. At the 2017 General Election, approximately 85 per cent of votes were cast for parties pledging in their manifestos fully to implement the Referendum result."

If Brexit is thwarted so is democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:54 PM

Beautiful photograph of a gawking crypto-fascist, Nigel Farage posing in front of the British flag, above the phrase used constantly by the British Empire regarding countries they ruled:
IS BRITAIN READY FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT
Don'cha love it !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 01:10 PM

Democracy in this country is predicated on the electorate being able to change its mind every few years. The roots of totalitarianism lie in the fear of the electorate changing its mind away from what the people in power prefer. What has become blantantly obvious is that the only deal on the table that is even remotely in the interests of the people in this country is the deal we currently enjoy with the EU as full and influential members. Not perfect, far from it, but there's simply no competition. No one on this forum, despite repeated requests, has been able to tell us what is going to be any good for this country about brexit. Which reminds me of another tenet of democracy, that we entrust the people we elect to act in our best interests. Theresa May has had to be repeatedly reined in since the referendum over her attempts to subvert parliamentary democracy. Targeting the people who complain about the extremely flawed and undemocratic referendum is a classic example of disingenuously choosing the wrong target.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:09 PM

Nonsense!   Just imagine the lefty squeals were the boot on the other foot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:11 PM

It is astonishing and simultaneously not in the least out of character to hear the DUP still saying the EU needs to change the deal and some Brexiteers claiming some people saying they might vote differently should be enough to satisfy Bercow's objections. Deliberately blinding yourself to reality is never a good stance.

Still, no doubt this all the EU's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM

Great to see a JACKBOOT FAVOURER talking about something being on the other foot - innit ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:59 PM

Watching newsnight - HMRC still haven't put measures in place to exempt UK businesses from changes in customs requirements if UK leaves EU, except for a small handful of businesses. If I was asked to place a bet on who would come of worse in a confrontation between a 42 ton truck and a customs jobsworth, I know where the smart money would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:56 PM

The losing side in any referendum, especially if the result was close, can be relied on to callfor a fresh vote soon enough. That would without doubt have happened if it had gone the other way in 2016. (Nigel Farage even promised on the night the result was declared.). The winner could be relied on to assert that a fresh vote once "the people had spoken" as an attack on democracy. There is no diubt that those favouring remain would have done that too.

But in both cases the actual reason for that wouldn't be anything so high-principled, it's simply a fear that another vote would come up with a different result.

I think that allowing a fresh note is the only democratic way to act. People have a right to change their mind - as time passes people who were too young to vote grow old enough. And of course circumstances mean that the question that needs to be asked changes.

Where there is a significant delay in carrying out the result of a referendum so that the number of fresh voters is greater than the margin of victory, and there is a significant demand for a new vote, it seems to me clear that a comittment to democracy should mean having such a vote.

As for "democracy" could anyone suggest that Norway, Denmark and Ireland are traitors to democracy because in analogous circumstances they had another vote? (In Norway the vote was to confirm the first vote to leave, in Denmark and Norway the outcome was to reverse it.) And tha5 in denying people any

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 09:16 PM

The winners, whoever they were, can always be relied on to say that giving a chance to change their minds was antidemocratic. The truth isn't anything so high principled. It's simply that they fear people might vote the other way. Or that people who'd been to young might vote to change the result. (The number of new young voters is now far larger than the narrow margin of victory in 2016 - and the evidence is tgey are overwhelming for remaining, since they are probably the ones who stand to lose most in any Brexit.)

Norway, Denmark and Ireland have all had a second vote in analogous circumstances. In Norway this confirmed the decision not to join the EU, in Denmark and Ireland it reversed the earlier one. (In the Republic of Ireland today there is currently something like 84% support for EU membership - and of course in 2016 in Northern Ireland most votes were for remaining in the EU.) So are these countries traitors to democratic principles, while the hilariouslt shambolic UK government is a brave upholder of such principles?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

and of course in 2016 in Northern Ireland most votes were for remaining in the EU.)
To be precise a majority of merely 5.8%. A very small "most" I would say.

shambolic UK government


I would say a treacherous Parliament would be more accurate. The last election was fought on a leave ticket by both major parties. If MPs place their security of tenure above their morality and stand as liars
then what kind of democracy is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM

The BBC is reporting that May is only going to ask for a short delay, which is what the Brexiteers in the cabinet wanted. With the exception of a general election, I think this rules out any form of public involvement - there is simply not time to agree the referendum question and hold a vote in three months. Equally the Kyle amendment where May's deal is put to a public confirmation hits a severe time barrier, which gets worse with every day's delay.   It seems to me that the final decision (or final indecision) will now be taken in Parliament without involving the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM

"5.8%. A very small "most" I would say."
In the referendum, 52 percent voted to leave the EU, with 48 percent voting to remain.
Yes indeed
Nice to see someone who accuses critics of the British Government of being "Anglophobes" using terms like "a treacherous Parliament"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 06:36 AM

Iains You have gone too far. I was trying to point out that Jim personally seems to have benefited from his life in the UK, as, no doubt, did his father. And that if they continue to send bombs to the UK it may be friends or even relatives of Jim himself who get maimed or murdered.

---

Iain's posts are being deleted from the bottom (so far) of this thread, so this post should probably also go away, but since Iain has been such a horse's ass there should probably be an occasional reminder to him and others that hateful posts aren't acceptable here. ---ticked-off mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:09 AM

The "majority for remain over leave" in Northern Ireland was 11.56% if you do it by subtracting the percentage of leave votes (44.22%) from remain votes (55.78%).The excess of remain votes over leave votes was 26.1% of leave votes, another way of looking at it. To be even more honest, 440,707 voted remain and 349,442 voted leave, a difference of 91,265, which looks quite impressive considering that only 349,442 voted leave. "A majority of 5.8%" is the most dishonest way of putting it. What is actually meant by that 5.8% is that remain achieved 5.8% (5.78% to be precise) over the 50% passmark. We shouldn't be surprised, I suppose, that rabid brexiteers would select the means of expression that looks most like remain only just made it. Still, I've given you the various ways of putting it. Take your pick. Or your nitpick. You decide.

Interestingly, Catholic's overwhelmingly voted remain (85%) whereas only 40% of Protestants voted remain.

What is intriguing is how these two explanations of voting – the ethnonational and the “left behind” theses – interact. It emerges that Catholics are quite homogenous in their pro-Remain disposition. There was little variation between how working class, less well-educated Catholics voted compared to middle class, better-educated Catholics...

... Higher-skilled and educated Protestants were much more likely than lower-skilled, lower-educated Protestants to vote Remain. There is almost no difference between how Catholics who went to grammar school and those who didn’t voted. But Protestants who didn’t go to grammar school were much more likely to vote Leave than those who did. [source: theconversation.com]

The same source indicates that anti-immigrationists in Northern Ireland were overwhelmingly more likely to vote leave (ironic or what) as were people who "oppose homosexuality" (not quite sure how that was defined). Good to know who your friends are, brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:35 AM

"In the British democracy a simple majority wins"
And the majority who voted against Brexit in NI exceeds that of those who voted to leave in Britain - you use one and ignore the other
You depict your leaders as "traitoers" yet describe others who say far less about them as Anglophiles
You really aren't the brightest Iron Cross on the uniform, are you
"And that if they continue to send bombs to the UK it may be friends or even relatives of Jim himself who get maimed or murdered.
You really are every bit as bad as your chosen bedfellow, aren't you?
Are you really never going to respond to anything that has been said
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:44 AM

Meanwhile, back on the topic of the thread, and without needing to resort to Brexshitters' standard tactics of insult and abuse of other posters on here, an accurate synopsis of the utter shit-pool our insane, incompetent PM and her bunch of clueless acolytes have got us into.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

May's 'short delay' really has the bastards chasing their own tails, wonder if Lord Snooty and Boris teh Brainless will demand to be present at the beheading ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

A little over an hour ago, BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg tweeted:

Implication of what PM saying very forcefully is that she might resign if Parliament or the EU forces delay beyond end of June.

It seems too much to hope for. But Kuenssberg is there on the scene, better politically-informed than those of us out here in internetopia. What do the rest of you make of her comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 10:51 AM

NOT JUST A TWEET
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:06 PM

I'm not sure whether it constitutes INJURY or INSULT, but there is an opinion piece in the Telegraph this morning by none other than the eponymous son of the current United States place holder, apparently arguing that the father gave PM May really good advice when he visited last year, and she did not take it. Since I am not a paying subscriber of the Telegraph I cannot tell of 'Junior' cared to explicitly restate the sage wisdom of The Donald.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

So "Paddy Power" has had to stop betting on a general election as a result of a huge number of bets based on a rumoured statement from May tonight.


Anything is possible, but I don't see an election being called tonight. If she speaks at all it will be to reiterate her deal is the only one on offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:44 PM

Guardian reports:
=======

Reactions of shock to Jeremy Corbyn’s refusal to partcipate in a meeting with other party leaders the PM invited to earlier are starting to populate Twitter.
This from the Daily Mail’s Claire Ellicott:
Hearing @jeremycorbyn left meeting with Theresa May and opposition leaders because he refused to sit down with @ChukaUmunna because he 'wasn't proper party leader'

Several others are reporting this, including Vince Cable.


======

I am also shocked. Corbyn is human, like the rest of us. But such pettiness at this crucial time is well below the standards I expect of a party leader. All else aside, to make one of the key stories of today that the Labour Leader is behaving like a petulant toddler is as damaging to future election prospects as any opponent could hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 04:48 PM

Jeremy Corbyn reportedly walked out on a crucial Brexit briefing with party leaders because former Labour MP Chuka Umunna was invited. The Labour Leader is thought to have refused to sit down with the Independent Group spokesman as 'he's not a real party leader'. The move has been criticised online, with Countdown presenter Rachel Riley writing on Twitter (inset): 'Corbyn on Hamas (the terrorists): I wanted Hamas to be part of the debate. Corbyn on Chuka Umunna (the anti-racism ex-Labour MP): Tell him I’m not talking to him. OK, got it.'

He is even more of a clown than treason May!

Could find the Independant group is bigger than Labour in the not too distant future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:06 PM

It was supposed to be a meeting involving May and opposition party leaders. Umunna is neither a leader nor a member of a political party. Jeremy was perfectly correct in walking out. Umunna is a charlatan and an opportunist who has betrayed his constituents by turning the back on the party that paid good money and spent lots of resources to get him elected. He is utterly undemocratic. I'd have walked out of that room a damn sight faster than Jeremy did, and, I must say, I'm amazed at your response, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 07:19 PM

Don't you think come the next election, Steve, that the opponents will make a great deal of capital out of that action? Sure, the meeting was presented as one of leaders, but what was the downside of Corbyn staying? He could easily have issued a statement aftwrwards saying TIG is not a party, and so should not have been present but in the national interests it was more important to seize any chance of getting May to listen to everyone's views. Instead it looks as if he has put a personal animosity with the TIG as more important than the country's future. Bad politics and tactical play, especially as everyone expected the meeting to be the usual of May repeating herself and ignoring everyone. The statement by the Lib Dema, Greens etc immediately after the meeting looked very much as if it could have been 90% prepared beforehand, with just scope for a few tweaks if needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 08:24 PM

No, I don't think that. These machinations will be rapidly lost in the morass of insanity engulfing this issue. The last thing that people will be recalling, in a week's time, will be Jezza walking out of a meeting with an out-of-control prime minister who had invited an unqualified charlatan. Principle does still mean something, tha knows...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:20 AM

Sorry Steve, Corbyn's behaviour there was childish. He should be anyone who is prepared to work with him to prevent the catastrophe towards which May is leading us. That includes TIG, and if they would take part, that should include Sinn Fein. Who might be persuaded to take their seats in this extreme situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 03:40 AM

I agree with David and DMcG. Corbyn behaved like a petulant child, and his unstatesmanlike display will be included in the armouries of his opponents - along with Antisemite/Enemy of The People/ Friend of Terrorists/yadda yadda - to be dragged out to beat him, and the Labour Party, with as and when it suits them.

However, a more important issue that everyone should be beating The Praying Mantis with is her bone-headed, arrogant refusal to involve anyone from the other parties in the BrexShit process until this late stage. Why she didn't make the biggest issue since the end of WW2 a cross-party matter, and set up a cross-party group to handle the process is, to say the very least, baffling. Clearly, she put her opportunity for personal glory ahead of the good of the nation. Shame she made a total f**k-up of the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:09 AM

I agree it was a mistake on Corbyn's part. Not that there was much point in attending, it seems clear that May intended to try to get people to back her 'deal', which Corbyn doesn't want to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:13 AM

The majority voted Leave

Is this a folk song?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:08 AM

I am disgusted by May's condescending and patronising behaviour. How dare she presume what I want. She could not form a majority government and she only stays in power by virtue of support from the DUP. The referendum was not a mandate to dictate the terms on which we would leave. The fallback position can only be leaving EU but remaining in EEA until a further referendum says otherwise. There is no mandate to discontinue freedom of movement - that is purly a presumptive statement that May made. There is no mandate to leave the single market or customs unions, so there is no lawful basis for UK or EU to withdraw the benefit of these from any businesses or consumers who want thesew to continue.

EU27 customs and border officials MUST continue to allow use of EU customs and passport channels unhindered for everyone who have not consented to this right being withdrawn, otherwise they are obeying the orders of thier UKIP/NEO-fascist overlords.

There is no reason why EU cannot agree an emergency treaty to allow 'split' arrangments, whereby those of us who do not consent to leave retain 100% of the benefits of EU membership, and everyone else has no rights whatsover. I would be happy to pay my £20 per year contribution on top of my tax liabilities, for which I would also expect to right of representation in the European Parliament and European Council. I would also expect the EU to enforce all European Law that has an impact on the rights of thise who do not consent to leave, if necessary applying harsh sanctions against those who do consent. I would, finally, expect EU to compensate UK citizens for non-compliance by the UK government, recovering the costs through the aforementioned sanctions.

it is all a perfecr solution. Leavers get everything they want for themselves - pay for it - without ****ing up the lives of the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM

Unbelievably reckless language from The Praying Mantis last night, trying to lay the blame for her own abject failure on to MPs and Parliament. In these highly-emotionally-charged times, she spoke in a way that is likely to stir up a great deal of antipathy towards MPs of every stripe, even to the point of endangering their lives.

She is a disgrace, the author of her own misfortune, and not fit to serve this country in any position, let alone PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

I think we are going to have a hard Brexit with no agreement.

Parliament seems effectively powerless to do anything except agree Theresa May's deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:48 AM

And, if that happens, she will have succeeded in achieving precisely what her tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, tax-avoiding masters have instructed her to achieve.

'Job Done' as far as she's concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 08:56 AM

There an online petition on the Parliament site to revoke Article 50, for anyone who wishes to sign. Be warned, it keeps crashing from traffic overload, so it might take a bit of persistence.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

You may see an apology-sorry-we're-fixing-it page. And if you get "Bad Gateway" it means they're really overloaded. I've had both, but my vote finally got through.

Keep trying. Stay or leave, we have got do everything in our power to avoid a no-deal crashout.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:48 AM

A refresing bit of sanity reported in today's Guardian:


The UK government’s petitions website crashed on Thursday morning as thousands of people attempted to sign a plea for article 50 to be revoked.

The petition began gaining signatures on Wednesday evening after Theresa May criticised MPs for not approving her Brexit deal. It had received almost 600,000 signatures and was growing at a rate of 1,500 a minute before the site crashed.

The petition calls on the government to revoke article 50 and keep Britain in the EU, continuing: “The government repeatedly claims exiting the EU is the will of the people. We need to put a stop to this claim by proving the strength of public support now for remaining in the EU. A people’s vote may not happen, so vote now.”

Surely, revocation would be a simple way out of your mess, but as a Yank, what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

as a Yank, what do I know?

As much as anyone on this side of the pond, that's for sure!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:16 AM

A million signatures on the 'Revoke A50' petition a few minutes ago.

Fingers crossed that Parliament comes to its senses, does the right thing and revokes A50, and saves the large majority who didn't express a desire to leave the E.U. from the stupidity of the minority who did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

A million signatures on the 'Revoke A50' petition a few minutes ago.
Around 900,000 of which have been since May's speech. I could see it passing 2 million before the weekend is out.

Of course, it is very likely to be ignored, even if 17 million sign it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

The TUC and CBI now sending a joint communication to The Praying Mantis, expressing their dismay at the disaster she has turned BrexShit into, and imploring her to change tack.

Surely now, even the most oafish, flag-waving, Union-Jack-Underpants-wearing, 'Take Are Cuntry Back" Brexshitter can now see what those of us who weren't brainwashed by Anti-EU BrexShit propaganda have known from Day-One, that BrexShit is a complete, unmitigated disaster in the making?

The time to abandon BrexShit is here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

As much as I am against leaving the EU I must say I would have preferred the government just to have laid out their leaving terms to the EU and then leave to the interminable nonsense we are now going through. I thought Cameron the pig sticker was bad. May the mantis is even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:09 PM

Tic Toc, Tic Toc !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

K K K K appear to be missing so I thought I'd add them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 12:33 PM

Got my confirmation email 1,119,676...... and counting.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 01:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL8TJsM86x0&list=RDjiUFPjulTW8&index=3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM

A method of stopping a no-deal is if a suitable amendment is made to MV3. One sure way of stopping that approach is to put in a series of different amendments where the 'arcane methods' of Parliament mean that, in many cases, if an earlier amendment is passed, there is no vote on yours. It looks very likely as a result of the meeting with May that all the opposition parties excluding Labour could put in a jointly agreed amendment.

But it looks as if Labour would not support it. They want to have their own Brexit version, which the opposition would not support.

For all May's madness, it could end up being Labour that gets us into a no-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:52 PM

Nope. No spreading the blame, please. She is the prime minister and she has taken charge of all this, sidestepping Parliament whenever she can, keeping secrets and refusing to bend and acting at every single turn in the interests of her party, never the country, and letting her rabid backbenchers and a sorry sectarian bunch call all the shots, bungs no object. Opposition parties ultimately have no real power. Whatever happens in the near future, history will rightly put one hundred percent of the blame for this on the Tories, Cameron and May in particular. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there are no principled Tories. If you vote Tory you are either woefully ignorant or you are riddled with self-interest. Know the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:56 PM

I agree we are 100% in this mess because of first Cameron and then May. There is no doubt of that. But if Labour are offered a chance to stop it and don't take it then they share the blame in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:29 PM

Nope. I'm a member of the Labour Party and no bugger presiding over this shambles is going to pass the buck to me, thank you very much. We are where we are because of the Tory disaster that's unfolded over at least three years. Her deal is a bloody rotten deal and must be discarded. Everything else to follow that is one hundred percent Tory blackmail. God, Question Time should be good tonight...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:59 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL8TJsM86x0

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:09 PM

I don't think blame and guilt add up in that way, Steve, but we will agree to differ, I hope.

I watched the first two Question Times under new management, but haven't since because I found it just wild shouting. However, I may face it this evening..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:19 PM

Incidentally, Steve, is the thread title "Brexit #3: A futile gesture?" a particularly prescient comment on MV3?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:26 PM

No, it was because I thought the mods might shut down an attempt to reopen a discussion they'd already shut down twice. Thanks, Maggie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:31 PM

I note reports that suppliers are stockpiling toilet rolls in case of a no deal Brexit. I am old enough to remember lavs with squares of newspaper rammed on to a nail. If you scrunched up the newspaper, it softened it. This may be a helpful tip for youngsters in the event of a shortage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:38 PM

A million signatures on the 'Revoke A50' petition a few minutes ago.
Around 900,000 of which have been since May's speech. I could see it passing 2 million before the weekend is out.

Well, I was wildly pessimistic about that. It is significantly over 2.1 million already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:44 PM

Gosh, Karen, just eat lots of popcorn and you'll get a "clean break." Failing that, find a grassy slope in a quiet spot to slide down legs akimbo, slightly damp if possible. A second slide down a clean bit leaves one spotless. I promise not to watch. Exhilarating, I promise, and I'm an expert, though I'll not disclose my locations. There's always a way. Other no-deal advice available, for a small fee, of course. Preferably in euros.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:55 PM

Happy May day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:58 PM

Did I understand the news today that Europe assented to the requested time extension? Who rules what the official Brexit departure date should be anyway?

The whole affair is my go-to example of what FUBAR is all about.

A FUBAR is to a SNAFU as a Catastrophe is to a Disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:32 AM

Re history: this depends on who writes it. On the assumption that history decides that Brexit was a disaster, maybe it will blame the voters who wanted to come out of the EU? Or the British Empire, which appears to be the favoured target of a great deal of blame on these boards. Myself, I think William the Conqueror has to share much of the blame, together with the Ancient Romans, who, after all, foisted Christianity on the world, to the extent that a major sect is still based in their home base, running a close second. Or maybe the Celts, those dastardly incomers! They were Europeans too, of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM

"Did I understand the news today that Europe assented to the requested time extension?"
They have cut the leaving time from June to the previous month I think - symbolic, given the name of the head lemming leading Britain over the cliff
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:01 AM

They have cut the leaving time from June to the previous month I think - symbolic

If you bothered to follow the narrative you would realise that an extension until June necessitates the UK participating in the European elections.

They will offer entertainment in their own right without the UK adding further divisive icing on the cake.
Do try to keep up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:07 AM

Re History: This was an amusing snippet amonst everything going on last night -
===
#HannanIrishHistory was trending after pro-Brexit Tory Mr Hannan used Ireland to make a point about the EU in a comment article.

In particular, he suggested Fianna Fail had won every Irish election between 1932 and 2008, when in fact the liberal-conservative party Fine Gael was in power on six occasions during the period.

When the accuracy of his article was questioned, Mr Hannan said "historians necessarily have different takes on the same event", adding: "Please try to accept that yours is not the only interpretation."
===

Another example of the unrelenting search for accuracy and understanding we have come to expect from some of the leading Brexiteers, like Hannon and "Dover" Raab.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:15 AM

"If you bothered to follow the narrative you"
If oyu read what I wrote, you insecure ill-mannered moron, you would notice I didn't comment on the reasons for changing the date
You pollute every thread you post to with your childish nastiness - time to grow up
Can a mod please do something about tis appalling behavior please ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Only you can do something, Jim. As suggested many times before, just ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:52 AM

robomatic wrote Did I understand the news today that Europe assented to the requested time extension? Who rules what the official Brexit departure date should be anyway?

Not quite, robo. The EU agreed to an extension but not the one requested. As to who rules the date, because it is a joint treaty, it is quite complicated. The EU has offered a date, but it is not legally binding on the UK because they have not formally accepted it. Last night Teresa May agreed to it, which in effect makes it government policy, but in law nothing has changed, to use her favourite phrase. It is not until Parliament formally accepts the offer and amends the law that that happens. Parliament could in principle do that now, but in practise will almost certainly wait until after MV3 because that enables them to accept one of the two alternative dates rather than have to build the alternative dates with their conditionality into the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

Jim - From Mudcat FAQs. You might like to read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest...then do as suggested here and elsewhere, Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

"Dealing With Flamers and Trolls

Here are some definitions from Netlingo.com:
flame
To send nasty or insulting messages, usually in response to someone's having broken the rules of netiquette.
flame bait
An intentionally inflammatory posting in a newsgroup or discussion group designed to elicit a strong reaction thereby creating a flame war.
flame war
When an online discussion degenerates into a series of personal attacks against the debators, rather than discussion of their positions. A heated exchange.
"Troll" is a bit more subtle, and I had a harder time finding it. Here's what I found in the Jargon Dictionary:
troll v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." 3. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.
Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.

I have to say that I have become a bit cynical about people who make a big show of leaving the Mudcat because of flamers - many of these people might warrant the title of "trolls." The people who attract flamers are often quite obnoxious themselves, especially those who leave with a long farewell message that usually generates a hundred "don't go" responses or more. I am concerned about those who quietly slip away, or those who never even start to participate because of the nastiness. Those who make a show of making martyrs of themselves are every bit as bad as the flamers, I think. They prey on the sympathy of good people.

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.

There is another problem that occasionally arises here - people who are threatening in their behavior. It is of utmost importance that you do not try to deal with these people. If you ignore them totally and inform Joe Offer or Big Mick about them quietly with a personal message or e-mail, we can quietly make them disappear (to an extent).
PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE YOURSELVES?

If people seem dangerous, LEAVE THEM ALONE."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

Lesson learned - got up the wrong side of the bed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:55 AM

But Jim your bed is against the wall?!

Well UK, you will always have May
to sing and dance and play
but a very hard Brexit
will likely condemn it
to turn all your blue skies to grey

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:26 AM

"But Jim your bed is against the wall?!"
Shit - that's where the headache came from !
Must make sure I make different sleeping arrangements next time I quiz a woman (an obscure folkie joke - but quite clever, even if I say so myself)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:51 AM

Rafael Behr socks it to May:

From The EU knows it, so do our own MPs: Theresa May is finished

Continental leaders have granted an article 50 extension, but not the one requested by the prime minister... Does May like this plan? It doesn’t matter. She wasn’t in the room where it happened. The summit conclusions were handed down to the petitioning nation as it paced around an antechamber. This is the power relationship between a “third country” and the EU. Britain had better get used to it.

The terms of the extension are not drafted for the prime minister’s benefit. They contain a message from the EU direct to the House of Commons. In crude terms: piss or get off the pot. If you want to leave with a deal, vote for the damned deal. If you are foolish enough to leave without a deal, do not blame us. Have a couple more weeks to think about it. But if you want something else, a referendum or a softer Brexit, work it out soon. And then send someone who isn’t May to talk to us about it.

The point of no return was the summit in Salzburg last September. May was invited to make the case for what was left of her “Chequers plan”... and instead of speaking candidly, persuasively, passionately or even just coherently, the British prime minister read mechanically from a text that was, in substance, no different from an op-ed article already published under her name in a German newspaper that morning. It was embarrassing and insulting. Many European diplomats say that was the moment when Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron and others realised they were dealing with someone out of her depth, unable to perform at the level required for the job...

A similar story is emerging from last night’s summit. May was asked about backup plans in the event that parliament rejects her deal a third time. She had nothing. She restated her determination that the deal should pass. This infuriating obtuseness is grimly familiar on this side of the Channel...

On Wednesday night... the prime minister went on television to berate MPs for obstructing her deal. The spirit was demagogic, even if the style was typically charmless. Here was a besieged leader, emerging from her bunker, presenting herself as the champion of her people against a rotten parliament. This did not go down well with MPs... [It didn't go down well with the public either - whom she tried to rope in as being allied with her stance. I have never been so instantly, totally, utterly, reduced to incoherent rage by a pronoun in my life. - BS]

Wednesday night’s performance exposed something that many of May’s colleagues find uncomfortable to acknowledge: ...a single fatal flaw. She is unable to communicate with others because she... lacks the introspection necessary to take responsibility for the mess made by her obstinacy. She has crossed a line from stubbornness into megalomania.

That leads to a conclusion that Britain’s continental neighbours reached long ago. Even if the UK ends up leaving the EU on the terms outlined in the prime minister’s deal, her part in the story will very soon be over. She is finished. The problems with Brexit are much bigger than Theresa May’s failings as a leader. But those failings disqualify her from being part of a viable solution.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/22/eu-mps-theresa-may-finished-brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

Amen to all of that, BS.

What a Poile o'Shoite this once proud nation has been dumped into by 17.4 million thick-tards and a clueless, arrogant, obstinate opportunist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

MPs should go for a vote of censure against Theresa May. It would be a very fair response to her attack on them on Wednesday.

Those who detest her on the Tory benches won't vote for a no confidence motion because they are running scared of triggering the Fixed Term Act. But a personal vote of censure wouldn't risk that, since it wouldn't have the magic words required in the act. But with an overwhelming vote of censure from across the house even with her trying to hang on to her office it would be very questionable constitutionally.
........

Isn't it a bit daft using the term "Meaningfull Votes" for votes that are ignored by the government, and are as meaningless as could be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

You pollute every thread you post to with your childish nastiness - time to grow up

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.


Jim Carroll
Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. "

Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Piss off you pair of racist pricks
Jim Carroll
At present, you are displaying all the belligerent thuggery and potential menage I associate with the racism you are displaying.
Jim Carroll
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 05:57 AM

"I think only you respond to his nonsense now, Jim."
Had enough of allowing an abusive poster fucking up threads

Jim
I have gone out of my way to be as polite as possible on these threads - all the personal abuse has come from elsewhere


and just what point is rattling roaring jimmie trying to make??
The sour little scouser needs to look in a mirror!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Remainiacs are seriously sick puppies!


https://order-order.com/2019/03/22/sick-remainers-produce-commemorative-tea-towel-dead-brexiteers/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:58 PM

Bonnie,

EU is asking the wrong questions. if they are competent, then they should have realised by now that May is not a fit and proper person to negotiate on behalf of the UK, and likewise the members of party she belongs to are putting self-interest before that of their country.

EU shoud be making far more of an effort to find out what the people of the UK want. If it is not pratical to consult with the entire UK population indiviually, then to at least talk to each elected representative.

For the last two and a half years the outcome of the referendum has badly affected my personal well-being, particularly that neither party (EU or UK) have made a legally binding guarantee that there will be no impact on the ability of my long-term partner from Prague and myself to continue to enjoy our long-distance relatkonship, and make a decision in the future to live together without having to satisfy racist conditions. I resent us being discriminated against in favour of those who have been able to reside previously and not be entitled to the same opportunities. I resent that people who have benefited from the right to study, work, retire in other EU states are selfishly denying others the same right on the future. I resent those that have benefited from funding from cohesion and structural funds to improve their lives are denying the same for people who are individually disadvanteged, or live in socially and economically deprived communities. All this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:28 PM

Could someone please link to the article in the Guardian entitled 'Secret Cabinet Office document reveals chaotic plannning for a no deal Brexit'

I cannot be alone in finding this deeply concerning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:49 PM

Here it is

That manages to disturb me in two quite distinct ways simultaneously. It is disturbing it is being done at all, though I expect to hear a casual "we need to prepare for all eventualities" as if this was not important.

But it also disturbs me in the diametrically opposed way. If you seriously think the risk of rioting or worse is real, and presumably there is little reason to think one urban area will differ greatly from another, 3500 staff will go nowhere. I am not sure how exactly you would define a small town, but that the UK has 350 or so seems plausible. So that's ten each. So it manages to be too many and far too few at the same time, depending on your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:02 PM

They do not call them remainiacs for nothing. It appears the instigator of the revoke article 50 petition is a raving loony.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/22/revoke-article-50-petition-creator-threatened-may-discussed-buy-legal-guns-take-commons/

"The creator of the petition is a certain Margaret Anne Georgiadou, who went on LBC to discuss the petition this afternoon. Now Guido can reveal a series of shocking posts from her on Facebook where she makes repeated death threats against Theresa May. She even discusses in detail with fellow Remainers how to purchase “legal” guns and go to the House of Commons.

In January, Georgiadou wrote about how she hoped that May would kill herself. In two further comments that now appear to have been deleted, she described May (or possibly Andrea Leadsom) as a “creature” that “needs putting down” and threatened to shoot May “point blank”.

I wonder what Mr Plod makes of all this?
The leftards keep strange company!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:26 PM

I don't remember the referendum voting slip consenting to allow the goverment any emergency powers in the event of civil unrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:18 PM

Leave means Leave march

It is heartening, in its way, that "Leave"'s style of setting off and doing things with minimal planning has not deserted it. I particularly liked

On its second day, plans to cross the River Tees by the famous Transporter Bridge had to be abandoned when the group arrived only to find the bridge did not operate on Sundays.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 09:38 PM

The identity of the person who originates an online petition is not too significant. It's worth remembering that the biggest ever online petition in the UK back in 2016 was set up before the referendum was held. It called for a second referendum to give people a chance to think again, if the winning side failed to reach 60% in a turnout of 75%.

The petition got 4,150,260, even more than the Revoke Article 50 one (though with 3,885,883 already this could easily get more before it's through.

And the person who originated it? A leaver, one Oliver Healey. He set it up before the vote, on the assumption that the Brexit option would be rejected the first time through. In the event of course Leave left, though with only 52% of a turn out of only 72%. He complained that the petition had been hijacked after the referendum by leave voters, who shared what on the face of it was Mr Healey's understanding of how democracy should work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:25 AM

@ SPB: I can see where you are coming from, but the problem with asking the people of the UK what they want is that they are divided, as the close referendum result shows. Not only that but EU sceptics are not an undivided set, and split on the basis of what they hope to get out of leaving. Here's hoping that your relationship survives whatever happens.

Some hoped (foolishly) for an end to the welfare state cutbacks imposed by this government funded by a reduction in EU paymentsm, whereas others don't much like the welfare state.

I should think that if the government seriously felt there was a chance of revoking Article 50 it would have plans to deal with social unrest caused by that, as suggestions have been made that this would cause some leavers to react.

I don't see any way to a happy ending at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 12:38 AM

What got me about Theresa May's speech to the nation was her statement that she understood that 'I' was worried about the NHS and the state of schools. I am, but mainly because of the tax and welfare state and educational policies of her government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 01:02 AM

To back up what I said about potential civil unrest, there are reports of tailbacks on motorways deliberately caused by Brexiters.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6840679/Furious-Brexiteers-cause-traffic-chaos-country-organise-lorries-block-motorways.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 02:20 AM

One thing easily overlooked in that article, KarenH, is the numbers of drivers involved :

Devon and Cornwall Police said it had stopped the convoys on the A30 and M5 and prosecuted the two lead drivers of both convoys for careless and inconsiderate driving.

or again

he Nottinghamshire Brexit go slow protest along the M1 this evening - eight vehicles took part flanked by police cars

We all know how a single breakdown on a motorway can lead to very long tailbacks. So while the disruption may be very significant for any such action, it only takes a handful of people to cause it. Yet, because of the way media works, it is likely to get as much attention as today's march with hundreds of thousands of attendees.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 03:38 AM

Some good news from the brexit fiasco. The tories are going to break with centuries of tradition and field a candidate against the speaker come the next election. I suspect no peerage on his departure either! How sad!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 04:52 AM

It is just possible, you know, that a person might care more about Parliament working to the rules of centuries than whether he or she gets a peerage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

More good news for the Brexit fiasco
The US have now stated that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border
Chew on that one folks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

Huh. Devon and Cornwall Police. Nicked two people for driving too slow after they nicked ME for driving too fast a couple of weeks ago. Make your minds up, plod! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

The US have now stated that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border

Care to show us all where Britain has suggested a hard border? Is it your acute anglophobia showing or simply an inability to understand simple text?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM

"Free trade" deal with the US? This is the protectionist Trump we are talking about. Even under Obama, who wasn't quite as bad, the terms of trade deals looked bleak, this was one reason some wanted to come out of the EU, the TTIP deal. Bad news for many decent domestic policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

It's partly I think to do with US dislike of European social models. They prefer tea parties and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:40 AM

Of course not all US citizens think alike, I should have made this clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM

London streets jammed up with protesters demanding a second referendum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 09:03 AM

But no response to the, British hard border. Now ain't that a surprise!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

I wasn't at the march, because I don't think a referendum is the best way out, either in terms of political stability or avoidance of manipulation. It the Revocation movement had started a week earlier, and the march has been more definitely about that, I would have.


But there were some good posters. My favourite was "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is starting to look a good idea."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM

The Praying Mantis's days look numbered according to news reports this morning. The suggestions as to who may take over from her however - her current effective-deputy, David Lidington, or The Lying Scottish Viper - look equally unattractive.

Failed former-Brexit minister, David Davis, also seems to be calling for a 'WTO Outcome' (A.K.A. 'No-deal crash-out'). From disaster to absolute disaster!

You really couldn't make this debacle up, could you? Still, on the plus side, at least by so debasing ourselves, we've given the EU27 a bloody good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:21 AM

WTO rules is the only way of actually LEAVING the European Union. Every little bit of a deal we do ties us to the European Union and it's rules. The reason remainers talk of taking 'Crashing Out' off the table is because they do not want to leave at all and 'Crashing Out' is the only way to truly leave. You talk about leaver's lies but this is the biggest lie of all. Taking 'Crashing Out' off the table really means NOT leaving at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

That's more a matter of definition that actuality, stanron. There are at least two other ways of leaving without following the WTO rules. The first has not been explicitly talked about as far as I know, but it is real and to some extent a few of the proposals are based on this.

a) You could leave and not choose to follow WTO rules.
Philosophically, if you object to the EU because you don't want to have rules set by a remote organisation whose democratic accountability you think very dubious, then it makes little sense to move to one which is even more remote and has no democratic accountability at all. But practically, the enforcement of WTO rules is ultimately set by a court and Trump is refusing to appoint the US representative to it. So in practice, the court cannot sit and the rules cannot be enforced. Some of the issues around Northern Ireland arise because of WTO rules. If you decided to ignore the rules it actually eases some of the problems.

So leaving and not following the WTO rules fully is undoubtedly a huge risk and potentially has great long term costs, but it is theoretically possible.

b) What was proposed during the referendum.
I expect everyone remembers the famous 'easiest deal in history' quotation. If you read the stuff around it, the idea was that initially the UK would follow the EU rules *voluntarily*, not by *legal obligation*, and then over time adapt them to something more in line with our wishes. If a given set of standards is acceptable to the EU and our businesses are set up to work to those standards, why not follow them until you come up with something you like better? There is some sense in this, and had it been possible to continue to trade with the EU on this basis, it would have been far better than the WTO rules. We were unable to negotiate the joint recognition of standards bodies this would need.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:22 AM

I should add that option (b) is the approach we have largely taken to leaving so far. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 brought a significant amount of EU law into UK law, so we have adopted it and once we leave we will continue follow it, but are free to change it at a later date. It is also what Teresa May is offering Labour - incorporate the current workers' rights etc into UK law, and as new EU laws are proposed the UK Parliament would consider whether to adopt them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM

"If a given set of standards is acceptable to the EU and our businesses are set up to work to those standards, why not follow them until you come up with something you like better?"

My understanding is that unless lots of things meet EU standards you cannot sell them to the EU. So if the 'standards' you like better are lower standards you have to give up selling that product to the EU.

There were certainly objections to EU standards. I remember the BBC doing a programme about standards for vacuum cleaners which were supposed to forbid super powerful cleaners and they found some UK businesses which claimed they could not function as businesses without such super powerful cleaners. There was one story after another purporting to demonstrate the 'madness' of EU standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:41 AM

Yes, that's right, Karen.   If we take vacuum cleaners as a example, the EU rules say they will only accept certain standards. If we wanted to sell to them, we have to meet those standards. But that is a decision of the individual business: make an EU-compatible version, an EU incompatible version, or both. As an EU member, it is possible the rules restricted what we could manufacture - I really don't know. Outside the EU, we could certainly manufacture both if we wished.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM

Bent bananas for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_(EC)_No._2257/94

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:03 AM

" Regulation 1221/2008 took effect as of 1 July 2009. Though neither the press release cited above nor Regulation 1221/2008 made any mention of bananas or Regulation 2257/94, some reports of the changes treated them as including the banana quality standards regulation and contained explicit or apparent references to this regulation, using expressions such as "the infamous 'straight banana' ruling". Some sources have claimed this to be an admission that the original regulations did indeed ban "bent bananas", or that it was accepted that it was "a farce".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:22 AM

Bananas are classified by quality and size so they can be traded internationally. Quality standards are also needed so that people know what they are buying and that the produce meets their expectations.

Straight & bendy are not banned by the EU. Commission

Regulation 2257/94 identifies certain restrictions for fruits that producers have to conform to in order to sell their produce within the EU. The regulation states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."

Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape" and Class 2 bananas full-on "defects of shape".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:42 AM

Nice 'quote of the week' in this morning's Sunday Times
France's European Minister, Nathanlie Loieau, has said she's named her cat Brexit
"She wakes me up at night mewling that she wants to go out, but when I get up to open the door she stay's where she is"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:05 AM

Squirrelling around desperately to find and ridicule examples of arcane EU "rules" (which are generally mythological in any case when examined a bit more closely) is something I thought we'd long ago got out of our systems. EU rules and regulations are generally arrived at by consensus, and the UK has accepted over 95% of them without demur. We've abstained on some of those 5% and opposed very few. You don't achieve agreement and harmony across 28 countries by trying to bring in silly rules. Now being made to import beef pumped up with hormones and chickens still riddled with Salmonella (due to lousy husbandry) even after being washed in chlorine, IS something to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:24 AM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/05/12/to-properly-explain-the-eus-bendy-bananas-rules-yes-theyre-real/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:22 PM

So the amendment has just been passed saying Parliament will have control of the agenda on Wednesday. Depending on the mechanisms chosen to try to find a common way forward could be indecisive and just add to the confusion, but it might come up with something. But whether it does or not, I think the precident that the executive must in some circumstances be subservient to Parliament is a very good thing indeed. If there is a majority for the ruling party it has negligible effect but when either party is a minority it stops it behaving as if it had a majority. That seems right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:07 AM

The precedent you mention is in reality the fact that the mother of all Parliaments has just whelped a devil.
A majority voted for brexit.
A majority voted for article 50
A majority of MPs stood for re-election on a party ticket of brexit.

Now the cabal of remainers have overturned the will of the executive.

If MPs can overturn the executive perhaps 17.5,000,000 brexiteers can overturn the country.

A very dangerous precedent has been set and the loser is democracy.

No matter how you wish to dress it up the will of the majority has been thwarted, as has democracy. For Britain this puts us in potentially dangerous territory.
It is a battle between nationalism and multinational driven globalism. A battle fought in America where Trump won.
    In the EU their is a chance that Macron will win, he is already bleating about Britain remaining in the EU is destroying his vision of a United States of Europe.

There is far far more at stake than simply membership of the EU.
Time a few woke up to the true agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:23 AM

History reveals that all empires have a time span, the European empire, imo is no different, it may prolong its lifetime by making internal reforms but its days are numbered.
However, the UK leaving right now, is imo going to leave toimmediate hardship for many in the uk and western europe, we have a choice between european multi national capitalism and non european multinational capitalism.
if i was able to vote right now it would not be for pie in the sky, but to remain. the u will feck itself up in time but hopefully after my lifetime

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:05 AM

Just for the moment, I am not talking about Brexit specifically, but how our system works in terms of democracy.

We agree, I hope, that MPs are elected based on the democratic choice of the constituents of their seat? True, safe seats and other forms of bias make this less clear cut than we might wish, but I think we can grant MPs are democratically elected.

Party leaders are elected by members of the respective party, but not by the public at large. This is a very weak form of democracy because the vast majority of the country is excluded by virtue of not being members of that party.

The government is appointed by the PM, which is normally the party leader. So while the MPs are democratically elected their appointment to a ministry is not democratic at all. Most recently - accelerating massively under Tony Blair - unelected "special advisors" have been given roles in government, completely excluding any democratic component.

So in my book, it is pretty clear that the Parliament is democratically elected but the government is not.   For that reason, sovereignty lies in Parliament, not government. Put another way, when asked whether the government's role is to serve Parliament, or Parliament's role is to serve government, I go with the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

Last night I spoke to a Northern Ireland friend who moves regularly between the Republic and the Six Counties
The discussion centred on the problem of driving licences, Green cards and the steady destabilisation of North Eastern businesses - and that's before Britain has made up its mind whether it wants a divorce and whether they are prepared to pay the alimony for the human and social damage it is going to cause both sides of the border
The damage it is going to cost Britain is apparently not worth a thought by them at the helm of the rudderless boat that Brexit now is recognised as
We all had a giggle over the cartoon depicting a lorry leaving Fishguard to be confronted with two adjacent road signs reading "You are now leaving Fishguard" and "Please join this queue for The Channel Tunnel"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:34 AM

For the Tory party leadership contests Tory MPs select two candidates for the membership to vote for.
The monarchy appoints the party leader of the major party to be PM.
The PM selects ministers.
The majority party forms the government, or failing a majority a coalition. That is democracy.
For the rank and file backbenchers of both parties to commandeer Parliament for their own nefarious purposes breaks both convention and democracy.

You can try and explain it away however you like but the process betrays democracy, the same as overturning the referendum results.
Bliar Blair should be charged with treason for conspiring with the EU against the clearly stated wishes of the UK majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:41 AM

We all had a giggle over the cartoon depicting a lorry leaving Fishguard to be confronted with two adjacent road signs reading "You are now leaving Fishguard" and "Please join this queue for The Channel Tunnel"

and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:15 AM

The quickest way to undermine parliamentary democracy is to wrestle away from its remit the most crucial issue in front of it since WW2 and put it into the hands of over forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is). You can then compound this error by staging a six-month campaign of lies before putting it to a ballot giving a binary choice expressed in crudely simplistic terms.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again: the decisions in Parliament to hold the referendum and enact Article 50 were made by a body of MPs which overwhelmingly supports staying in the EU. They voted the way they did because they were put in the position of a turkey being forced to choose one of two kinds of Christmas: allow the UK to make the disastrous exit from the EU but keep your job, or oppose the referendum/Article 50 in the interests of the country and lose your job. So, with few exceptions, they decided to do politics in the face of a populist surge kicked off by Cameron instead of putting the interests of the country first. And, if it ever comes to a vote on whether to revoke Article 50, which everyone with more than one brain cell knows is the only sane solution to this, they'll do the same again. It has nothing to do with "respecting the will of the people" or "refusing to betray democracy" and everything to do with keeping their jobs. And that is the ultimate disrespect for the people of this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

We elect MPs assuming they have a degree of integrity. At the last election both Tory and Labour candidates stood on a joint party ticket of leave the EU.
How do you explain away their sudden transmutation into staunch remainers post the election? Did they encounter kryptonite in the Commons or did grubby job security take precedence over honesty and integrity.

You talk turkeys when in reality they are canards in a feeble attempt to justify their abysmal behaviour.

We need a vote of confidence and an election and to fight the EU elections and start all over and have representatives we can trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

A few Brexiteers (Rees-Mogg, Fabricant for example) are now saying they are minded to vote for May's deal. Sounds like they are prepared to live with the backstop and the UK being a vassal state after all then, rather than let the people confirm that they want that rather than to have a voice in EU rules and regulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM

The missing 30000
Interesting bit of news manipulation in the press this morning
The English Times Murdoch bum-wipe reports that 50,000 Irish jobs will be lost thanks to Brexit while the Irish Times and the lady who wrote the report being interview on the radio claims the figure to be 80,000
It seems the right wing press is about as numerate adept as is Britain's leaders

CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

The quickest way to undermine parliamentary democracy is to wrestle away from its remit the most crucial issue in front of it since WW2 and put it into the hands of over forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination

So the hoi polloi are insufficiently knowledgeable to decide on a vote on whether to remain in the EU, but the MPs (who were elected by that same electorate) are!

What an interesting viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:19 AM

"So the hoi polloi are insufficiently knowledgeable to decide on a vote on whether to remain in the EU"
They're apparently not to be trusted enough to be allowed to confirm their decision now that the destination has become clear Nigel
The driver has firmly decided the route (or should that be rout?) on this Magical Mystery Tour from day one and most of them are sending their own PERSONAL LUGGAGE off on a safer one as soon as they saw what was heading their way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:33 AM

That is precisely my viewpoint, Nigel. We PAY them to become more au fait than the rest of us. Or why not take YOUR viewpoint to its logical conclusion: let's have a referendum on everything. And don't forget to ask that random selection of pub punters what a customs union is. One bar where you'll get the correct answer every time would be the one in the House of Commons. I don't fancy your chances anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 01:16 PM

"...Although "hoi polloi" wouldn't be my choice of words..."
Wear it as a badge of honour Steve - you need to take into consideration the characters of the people who use it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 02:51 PM

Hoi polloi = the rank and file, the populace, the public, the people, the multitude,

It is also worth pointing out that MPs refer to themselves in the house as honourable. Lying cheating conniving is a more accurate prefix in my book.
If they cannot be trusted who has any confidence in them and who will re elect them.
What does a professional MP bring to the table?
They have never accomplished anything and have no knowledge outside their little Westminster bubble. Typical of the left to have complete faith in such people. They will be advocating 5 year plans next!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM

font=color"yellow>CLARE; I'm sure the lady you referred to has no opinion on the matter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 03:51 PM

Please ignore the above I was playing about in preview and forgot to tick the box

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:13 PM

'Lying, cheating' conniving.............'      


Surely this cannot come from the posts of one who told us we should have more respect for our politicians?

Or was it the other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:27 PM

I cannot believe I would say anything complimentary about MPs. You must show me where I said such an obvious untruth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM

"Hoi polloi" is derogatory. That's the sense in which Nigel used it and it's why it's not my choice of words for the people of this country. "Forty million unelected individuals whose credentials are entirely unchecked and which in most cases wouldn't bear close examination (next time you're down the pub, ask a random handful of people what a customs union is)" is what I said. Some of those forty million will be expert plasterers, builders, plumbers, bus drivers, electricians, orthopaedic surgeons and university lecturers. We pay them to be accomplished in those fields. We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues. I don't want to ask an MP to do my sink replacement and I don't want to ask my plumber to decide the fate of my children and grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:12 PM

We pay MPs to make vital choices for the country from a position of knowledge and intimate understanding of domestic and international issues.

R U 4 REAL ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

I pay my plumber to service my boiler, install new taps and fix leaks. He's not perfect; he's been banned from driving for repeated excessive speeding offences. He managed to flood my kitchen once last year, but he's an excellent chap who makes mistakes and I'll keep him coming. The man who sweeps my chimneys and who maintains my stoves was fined £600 for driving without insurance. He managed to breach a certain building regulation once when he signed off the new wood-burning stove he'd installed for us, but it was a misunderstanding of the regs and there's no hazard or problem that can't be easily fixed if I ever sell the house. I'll be booking him again in the next few weeks. I don't care for my Tory MP at all but I accept the democratic process that elected him. I don't actually see him at his multifaceted work but I'm reasonably confident that he's fairly dutiful, even though he consistently supports policies that I disagree with. The thing is, he got elected to decide on those policies whereas I wasn't. He's far from perfect and I wouldn't expect him to be. Many MPs have been known to stretch points on their expenses forms and a few need to grow up sexually, and it would be nice if they put public interest above watching their backs. Same with some bank managers, doctors, professors, vicars and headteachers and a lot of others who we should feel are worthy of respect but who are somewhat less in the public eye than politicians. Thing is, we get the politicians we deserve. But suggest political education in schools and all of a sudden, according to Tories, every teacher becomes a potential red under the bed. So we have an electorate who are politically ignorant unless they educate themselves as best they can (given the generally warped and skewed resources at their disposal), and that is a small minority (have you asked those random boozers yet what a customs union is?) If every MP was as bloody useless as some suggest, we wouldn't have a country. They have a job to do, and the most that any of us see of it is their pronouncements on the telly. The tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 01:15 AM

nigel and ian ,it is the law that parliament has the last say , this datesback to the time of oliver cromwell, you can think what you like but this is a fact, and the referendum was asdvisory with parliameny having the last say that is the law of the land

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 02:05 AM

Moreover, once Parliament has decided something and passed a law, they can revisit it at any time to see if it needs to be revised. This means the fact most MPs voted to invoke article 50 has little weight: what matters is whether they still think the process they put in place.is delivering what they intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:10 AM

As I've posted elsewhere today...

David Davis (failed former BrexShit Secretary) in 2012 - "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

That simple sentence is the absolute answer to all of the confuscation, whataboutery, and plain, simple bullshit from the Brexit-Brigade.

End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM

I see no evidence of Backwoodsman changing his mind. Does this make him undemocratic?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 09:54 AM

No, but it makes you a jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 09:59 AM

At least he HAS a mind, apparently unlike the vast bulk of people who brainlessly voted for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 10:02 AM

I don't think it does, Mossback, but he is confused about the difference between changing your mind and being given the opportunity to change your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:37 PM

It is getting hard to keep track of all the U turns, but I think Boris declared May's deal an 8nacceptable straightjacket yesterday, that he would vote for it today and the with the DUP announcement it won't back or abstain, finds himself declaring he will back a deal the hardliners hate that may not take place at all. Sounds as if he is spinning so fast he has stabbed himself in the back.

Meanwhile, it looks as if Bercow will only allow the deal to come back if is significantly amended, probably by including something Parliament selects via indicative vote process, even though May would not commit to doing that. Meanwhile also May promises to remain if her deal (which she might not be able to vote on) is passed; and if has been amended she may not think it her deal anyway. Meanwhile the ERG is splitting with a number saying they will back her vote (which may not be voted on and if amended by, say, adding in a confirmatory referendum they may now be unable to support again
)

However both houses have amended the departure date so we are definitely NOT leaving on Friday - sorry, Nigel!

Everyone clear?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I typed remain when I meant resign above. Sorry. This is my 4th time trying to say so - the site keeps timing out

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:34 PM

Yeah, Mudcat has been a complete pig for a couple of days. I'm glad it's not just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM

Basically after 3 years of prevarication it is all as clear as mud.

I understand that after being told that the on-line propostion would be ignored by the government that the issue, ie reversing Article 50, will now be discussed in Parliament after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:46 PM

Only in Westminster Hall, not in the House, and there will be no vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

9.45pm update: MPs reject all eight Brexit alternative plans

Motion B) No deal - defeated by 400 votes to 160, majority 240.

Motion D) Common market 2.0 - defeated by 283 votes to 188, majority 95.

Motion H) Efta and EEA - defeated by 377 votes to 65, majority 312.

Motion J) Customs union - defeated by 272 votes to 264, majority eight.

Motion K) Labour's alternative plan - defeated by 307 votes to 237, majority 70.

Motion L) Revocation to avoid no-deal - defeated by 293 votes to 184, majority 109.

Motion M) Confirmatory public vote - defeated by 295 voted to 268, majority 27.

Motion O) Contingent preferential arrangements - defeated by 422 votes to 139, majority 283

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 06:54 PM

Indeed all options were rejected, but not equally. There will be another vote on Monday, probably, and is is very likely that all options with, say, 150 or more voting against will not get anywhere. Options with say less than 50 adrift are much more likely to pass in future.

I would not be surprised to see May's deal with a confirmation vote being the winner in the end, partially because that does not cross any of May's red lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:05 PM

But the SNP didn't vote on any of them except for the Margaret Beckett amendment. They are sure to weigh in at some stage. And the customs union didn't lose by large margin.

If you crunch the numbers, there were a lot of abstainers keeping their powder dry.

Meanwhile the DUP blew out of the water May's hopes for backing her deal. If Bercow even allows it to be moved.

Far from done and dusted. This was just a knock-out round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:07 PM

Cross-posted with DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 07:33 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Rees Mogg has switched again again again. Now he's in line with the DUP. Too bad they can't delete print newspaper headlines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 08:40 PM

It's all bloody Tory games. I'll go if you'll vote for me. I'll vote for you if the Ulster fascists vote for you, otherwise I might not. I hate your deal but I'll vote for it anyway otherwise my constituents will think I'm betraying "the will of the people." I've dragged you down twice but goddammit I'll vote for you even though your shit stinks because the one thing that'll save the country might happen if I don't.

Anyone for principles?

Anyone for what is actually in the interests of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:29 AM

Well, nobody could accuse extreme-Right-Wing Tories like Jacob ("Call me Jake") Rich-Mong of putting country before party and their own personal wealth, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 03:54 AM

Who is up for writing a new version of "The Vicar of Bray"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

They are not even trying to hide it any more.

May: Vote for my proposal. It is good.
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal. Pretty please
ERG: No chance

May: Vote for my proposal and I'll give you chance of more power
ERG: OK then!

As big a bunch of self-serving twats that ever (dis)graced a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:17 AM

My MP voted for a no-deal (rejected by the House earlier) and for a variation of the Malthouse (explicitly taken back to the EU and trashed completely by them.) He voted against everything else.

Nice to see intelligent compromise at work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:00 AM

Brexit won the referendum, Parliament voted to implement that decision.
The only reason we have the present chaos is because MPs value their
sinecure more than their honour.
They may have to revamp their cvs in the not too distant future.

I see tin cans   skipping   down the road and into the very long grass

and it shall come to pass
Hosea 8:7

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

i think we are way past the point of the game where the victims of britain's imperial wars rise up with the great trees of sherwood and across the country, cut down for car parks and boxy wee houses for thatcher's zombie children, and sweep across the land behind ivor cutler on a unicorn.

'right everybody....i'm in charge for now so be quiet......'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM

Soooo, enticing the ERGs by dangling visions of a vacant No.10 before their starry eyes didn't work. Why waste the remains of your colours nailing them to a mast if it's just about to disappear beneath the waves? Rats and sinking ships come to mind. The perfect metaphor for their political integrity.

Not having managed to manipulate her Sunday-lunch clique with bribery, May now tries it on the whole nation. Only trouble is, it seems to be an equation. An equation with no date. Pass my deal = I will step down. Ahhh, those teensy little conjunctions "if" and "when".

What happens if the MPs don't? Or if Bercow disallows MV3? Ooops. Guess she doesn't have to abide by her word. Again.


Ian Dunt (editor of the site Politics.co.uk) writes:

"What an abominable circus. It's hard to know where the greater blame should be put. On the prime minister who has made her own eradication a bribe to force through the product of her failure? Or the great defenders of British sovereignty who have suddenly decided none of their principles mean anything if there is a chance to finish off a political rival?...

Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get it passed is by default not worth supporting. And any political culture which would require the author of a deal to step down in order for MPs to back it is plainly in a state of advanced decay. What followed was a masterclass in hypocrisy so severe that it was startling even in this golden age of consequence-free political lying...

It is the Nazi-Soviet pact of the Brexit debate: a deal so cynical it contains its own gravitational field. May is prepared to offer her resignation in exchange for the deal, on the basis that if it passes she probably won't have to see it through...

The indicative votes represented the fabled parliamentary sovereignty which [the ERGs] spent the referendum insisting the country had lost. They wanted our own parliament to pass our own laws. And yet when it started to do so, they preferred vassalage."

- Ian Dunt


https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Lesson on the black arts from the EU.

MEPs tricked on vote for internet copyright directive

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:52 AM

According to a live feed:

12:03

Raab calls for 'pragmatism' and says UK should return to EU to demand legally-binding changes to backstop

That looks like a textbook example of lack of pragmatism to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

A report today on the BBC news websites gives yet another insight into the disgraceful conduct of the Conserative government.

It reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.

This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.

Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.

And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:56 AM

There was a comment posted by one of the pundits that the future of the UK is now in the hands of some 120,000 Conservative party members and how they are influenced by the campaigning of the potential leaders. It is true enough that I seriously looked into joining the Conservative Party for the scrap of influence on the future.

Two problems: the first, which I actually fully agree with, is that you only get voting rights after 3 months membership. That is sensible, and I might be in time, or I might not.

But the clincher is that they don't get to decide, really. They have a choice between two candidates, selected from on high. If the two have very different goals, then that would be, to coin a phrase, a meaningful vote. But if they are two people with a very similar viewpoint, which is by far the most likely thing, then is the vote is of no real significance.

No one need fear: I will not be joining the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM

t reports that 2.9 million children from WORKING families are living in poverty.
This as after 9 years of a Conservative lead government.
Not only is this tragic, it is shameful.
And to think some on here support and applaud their 'efforts'.

Shameful indeed! But the undeniable fact is that according to the Rountree foundation report child povery levels were higher under Labour.

If the Tory record is shameful what words do you suggest to summarise Labour's despicable record?

Terrible things facts. In fact poverty levels among pensioners were 15% higher under Blair.

Should we support and applaud Labour miserable efforts?
I rather fink not!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

Twist it any way you want Iains. I care not which government it is.

The fact is occuring in 21st century England is an absolute travesty.

Your support for them is also known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

From the Child Poverty Action Group

Child poverty reduced dramatically between 1998/9-2011/12 when 800,000 children were lifted out of poverty

I can't remember who was elected in 1997 and 2010. Can you, Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 02:55 PM

Any fool can play games with statistics. Political parties come and go, as do economic cycles. To take one statistic and plot it against time is simplistic in the extreme. It needs to   be studied in context and trying to play party politics by simplifying the underlying realities achieves nothing other than a loss of credibility. There have been major changes in society over the last 20 years and in government policies. There were also depressions in the early 80's, 90's and 2008/9.

Interest rates generally declined during the recession from a peak of 17.0% at the beginning of 1980 to a low of 9.6% in October 1982.
Unemployment rose from 6.9% of the working population in 1990 to 10.7% in 1993.Annual inflation was 9.5% in 1990, 5.9% in 1991, 3.7% in 1992. and 1.6% in 1993. Interest rates were stubbornly high initially but declined from a high of 14.8% at the start of the recession to a low of 5.9% by the end of the recession
Manufacturing output declined 7% by end 2008 during the late 2000s financial crisis. The unemployment rate rose to 8.3% (2.68m people) in August 2011, the highest level since 1994.

All played a part.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 04:12 PM

any fool can play games with statistics.

many of us on the left are totally scunnered with tony blair . however, he did pump billions into public services and working in the public sector we could all see the difference (just don't mention PPI!) the tories never stop reminding us of how much the labour party spent. but, proper jobs were there providing security for families and communities. people were able to access a welfare system largely without punitive and indiscriminate sanctions. etc etc etc.....

however, it hardly needs saying that tories will always work to dismantle the state for the benefit of their rich friends. and 'the left' should always work to support it for all our benefit. as michael foot said - something like - 'the rich have no need of government as they will always prosper' it's vital for the rest of society. it's our countries' tragedy that it is always the rich who run it and that so many of us believe the lies and continue to believe that only the toffs know how to run the show.

we need more faith and belief in ourselves. to believe in the tories and their lies is unforgivable when they are so shamelessly greedy and inept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:48 AM

It's just not worth the effort with some people, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Perhaps gnome but unlike you my reputation here is intact! Now how about a contribution to the discussion instead of your usual sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Brexit: Police brace for disorder after far-right protesters threaten to riot at London rallies

Let's hope that is no more than nervousness and it all comes to nothing. But it will be a big contrast to the Leave march with 1,000,000 or so attendees if it does happen. Both sides are disappointed at the outcome, but their response could be very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

Obviously I hate Murdoch and The Sun (especially as a Liverpool fan), but if I may be allowed a moment of levity deep in this vale of tears I'd like to draw attention to today's Sun front page, which, referring to "Brexy's Midnight Runners," follows with the headline COME ON ARLENE


(Seen online, by the way. I'd rather hack off my gonads with a rusty machete than pay money for that despicable rag, but I've gotta applaud that headline writer).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:47 AM

1300! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:58 AM

I think it was a general question, Jim. No-one who wants to keep their sanity interacts with him any more.

Nice to see you BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

"Nice to see you BTW."
Never went far Dave - why waste a good forum with light entertainment such as this over a few bad experiences ?
You'd have to pay a great deal to get into a circus that offers clowns as entertaining as this one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:37 AM

Twitter's a gold mine for entertainment. Fave Brexit tweet so far:

Brexit is a terrible name for it. Sounds like cereal you eat when you're constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

Well, happy Brexit Day #1...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:23 AM

Great street scene before Parliament today of extremist Brexiteers like Lord Snooty admitting that even if they vote for any of the proposals todaythey don't agree the terms they will be supporting
Utterly insane national suicide which will only please the worst of the narrow-minded keep-'em-outers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 08:50 AM

3 times is the charm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM

Bad luck around here
I' having an appalling internet posting problem at present - not sure if it's this forum or a local speed problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:14 PM

It's not just you, Jim. Copy everything before sending.

By the way, Jim, "a**s" can't just be "arse" with the 'e' missing. Too many **s for that. Unless it's the Scottish pronunciation in which you roll your 'r's, in which case you could conceivably spell it "arrse." But it's more commonly rendered "erse" or "errse" in my experience.

Roll your 'r's? Roll your arse?? God, I'm confused...

Dave, you can even roll an axis...

And I note the the Commons has just given Theresa a well-deserved kick up the 'arris...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:16 PM

Or do I mean an axle, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 12:58 PM

"Too many **s for that. "
Don't forget the sender is innumerate as well as illiterate

Iains
You have been a serial abuser since you joined this forum - the pathetic number of responses to your abuse are - well - pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 01:28 PM

May's proposals kicked into touch again
You really couldn't make this up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:36 PM

"A second EU Referendum would be undemocratic", said the PM who brought her 'Deal' back to Parliament to be voted on three times, and is now threatening to bring it back for a fourth vote next week!

What was that thing the Brexshitters were saying about 're-running the vote until you get the result you want'?

Sauce, goose, gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

"Her deal was a load of b***llo**cks, Jim. Total sh***te."
Of course it was - why should it be any different from everything connected with this catastrophe ?
As bad as it was, the alternatives are far, far worse, to Britain and to Ireland
Britain has been shedding bompanies faster than a stripper shrows her knickers into the crowd - even financial backers of Brexit are rapily moving their businesses elsewhere
One of the most persistent maritime superstitions is that of rats leaving a sinking ship
The people who are re-siting their businesses are in a win-win situation - they still profit from Britain while pouring their profits into other counties - as usual, it's us that will take the brunt of this farce - we are now - promoted to road-crash dummies
Ireland stands to have its businesses badly damaged, but most worrying, if Britain crashes out without a deal there is a serious risk that decades of negotiation to reach peace will be flushed down the pan
I have not time for any form of capitalism, but I'd rather see the world freed from it out of choice rather than necessity brought about by war and want
Despite al the EU's undeniable flaws Id rather try then that the alternative
Ther same goes fro May, by the way - would you want your daughter to bring Boris Johnson home ?
Frigged if I would
At least May recognises the dangers of crashing out "Put-Your Money-Elswhere Quickly" Moggie sees only the personal profits in leaving Europe - sod the sinking ship and all who sink in her
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 03:08 PM

So, a poorly understood plebiscite, a rotten decision, an amazing amount of obfuscation all round, there is no walking away from the brink?

That plank gotta be walked?

That bitter pill gotta be swallowed?

That last chord gotta be played even when the string is broke?

That last bit of programming gotta be included in the final product even though the commenting was unclear, the subroutine was written by that weird kid with the actual safety pin in his cheek, and the beta test indicated that many users were showing an inclination to take the DVD installment disk and use it a a frisbee for the dog?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 05:16 PM

Well, at least there's a bit of good news about Brexit - we didn't leave today the way the BrexShit-lemmings had hoped. With any luck, sanity will prevail and the whole lunatic escapade will be kicked into touch for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 05:58 PM

It's 11pm in three minutes. I'm indulging in a very large celebratory glug of EU wine at that instant...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

*GLUG*

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM

...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 02:23 AM

"...and Jim didn't get my joke... :-("
Sorry 'bout that Steve
I was indulging in a large celebratory glug of English beer which, unfortunately, can only be got in bottles here - god - how I miss Young's Ordinary !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:34 AM

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party.
Colleagues of the Conservative MP and former minister have branded the vote in his constituency as "disgraceful". The more sensible would see it as a payback.
I wonder how many others face de-selection on both sides of the house. Treachery brings it's own rewards!
Now the real battle begins.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:42 AM

The game is far from over. First the House has to agree on something, then they have to find a way of getting the PM to put that forward. Suppose, for the sake of argument they agree on some form of customs union. Teresa May takes that back to the EU and says that is the will of the House, and the EU grants a year's extension. May resigns and let's say Rabb becomes PM.

So we move from what Leavers claim is a Remainer trying to negotiate Leave, to a hard line ERG PM trying to negotiate a close union. I can see that working well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:56 AM

Remain MP Dominic Grieve suffers no confidence vote from his local constituency party

Dominic Grieve has shown himself to be a very measured and thoughtful MP. I am 100% certain he considered that he might be deselected and acted as he did fully aware of that possibility.

I know it is hard to admit that some people are not wholly driven by self-interest, but they do exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:02 AM

But only when they agree with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:31 AM

No, there are plenty throughout history and quite a few I have known personally.

I have told a story before in other contexts about one of my supervisors who was offered a position as general manager of a company, which was a very significant promotion. The offer included a copy of the assessment criteria so he went through it answering them not as he felt, but giving what he believed the answers they would most want, then looked at them and said to himself "Is that the sort of person I want to be?" He decided it wasn't, so turned it down without formally applying.

I find that admirable, whether or not I think he would have made an excellent general manager (which he would have, in my opinion.) I regret 'the waste' of his talent, but not his determination to be true to his own standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 01:23 PM

"I know it is hard to admit that some people are not wholly driven by self-interest, but they do exist."
You can immediately spot the self interest crowd by whether or not they are likely to lose money out of the move - most of us are, those in the position to, like Dyson and Rees Mogg can push Brexit through and do a runner with teir investments - as both have

I always find it fascinating why Brexiteers refuse to respond to this fact (I refuse to believe all of them are lemmings by instinct)
Another fact being studiously ignored

The leaver's policy has now become perfectly clear - leave whatever the consequences and when the shit starts flying, blame the people for making the wrong decision


IGNORE THE FACTS AND BLAME THE PEOPLE POLICY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 05:09 PM

The leftards response to Dominic Grieve being held to account by his constituency party as exemplified by Phil Wilson who said the vote was "ridiculous", adding: "I'm not of the same politics as Grieve but to deselect him as a Conservative candidate is to diminish politics, see an end to political integrity and deprive politics of a sincere and thoughtful practitioner."

Grieve’s arrogance was that he thought he could shift from promising his members – in writing – that he would respect the outcome of the referendum, to leading the efforts to thwart Brexit, without cost. Breaking your word to voters, particularly the ones who get out the vote for you, is risky.

or as another wit says:Dominic Grieve said in the Commons a few days ago he had never been so ashamed to be a Tory.

Last night, his local Conservative party voted that they were ashamed to have Dominic Grieve as their MP.

Should be the quickest case ever through the divorce courts if both sides are that fed up with one another !!

Douglas Carswell states it very well:

“If Dom Grieve is a brilliant MP like other MPs are claiming, he’d have no qualms about calling a snap by election and getting a mandate directly from his electorate. You’ve only got to put it like that to realise that he’s just another safe seat MP with tenure."

It begins to look as though we have an entire party(/parliament) that believes it can sit in "tenure".
If nothing else, the Brexit vote has exposed this perilous state, and it can’t be sustained.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 05:54 PM

There is a story in the Guardian that sounds like could reach a new crescendo in absurdity, naturally going back to Cameron. It seems like one of May's ideas is to call a snap election to prevent a no deal. But to do that she needs a two-thirds majority in the house and there are sufficient no-deals to make that very risky, since they would far rather stay in government with a Brexiteer at the helm. Why risk a Corbyn government ?

So her only option would be to call a no confidence vote in herself and her own government since that only requires a simple majority, not a two-thirds one. When she call it, to maximise the chances of losing (ie getting what she wants) she and her loyalists would have to declare themselves incompitent. But since the rest of the Tories would still not want to risk losing their seat she could even lose that.

And so we end up with the same PM and government even though she and many of them say they are incompetent....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:19 PM

So it appears that Teresa May wants a forth bite of the cherry, despite her 'deal' having been suffered the largest defeat in the history of Parliament.

I am sure I am not alone in finding this more than a little incongruous when she will not allow the public even a second bite at the cherry.

Yet another example of one law for us and another for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:40 PM

Results for: Do you think parliament should accept or reject the proposal that the UK revokes Article 50 and remains in the EU?
Fieldwork end date
Pollster        27 March 2019
Poll by Sky Data
Accept        37%
Reject               41%
Don't know        22%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:48 AM

What has become totally clear from the latest statements by politicians is that they are putting into place a plan that if/when Britain leaves the EU, everything that will inevitably go wrong will be put squarely at the feet of the General public "We only did what you told us to do"
Of course they will take the credit if things aren't as bad as is predicted.
The constant claim that the only democratic thing is to go plunging over the cliff - "the people's choice" has become a solid part of the creation of that 'Get out of Jail Free' card'
The people will not only be the victims of this lemming-leap, but the cause of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM

That is an interesting set of poll results. I can't find the details but looking at other polls the margin of error is around 2% for other sky polls, so the option of revoking is well within shouting distance of continuing with either a deal or no-deal. The very large unknowns makes thie actual wishes indecipherable.

. I believe it would be perfectly possible to get a huge vote in favour of revocation by preceding the survey with an accurate statement like this:

We are nearing completion of the first phase of the Brexit negotiations, the withdrawal agreement. The next phase will involve negotiating our continuing relationship with the EU and other countries. Such negotiations have typically taken seven years or more, and will be unavoidable for either deal or no-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 03:00 AM

I'll put that a different way. The one thing the general public is absolutely clear about is that most want he media to stop talking about Brexit all the time. Only revocation achieves this. (OK, it may take a month or two to fall off the news but not years or decades like either deal or no-deal)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

"The one thing the general public is absolutely clear about is that most want he media to stop talking about Brexit all the time."
Surely the most dangerous aspect of this whole dirty business is that it was pushed though on a single issue - control of immigration
If the subject is re-voted on without open discussion on all the aspects of leaving the public will be no clearer than they are now - an extremely dangerous position to be in
It is very significant that two of the main speakers at Friday's protest demonstration were Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson and several of the demonstrators, when asked where they got their information from replied, from Robinson's website
Scum like this pair need to be taken out of this debate - both have infringed British law in spirit - one has been prosecuted for doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM

Channel 4 has had to apologise because Jon Snow remarked that the pro-Brexit demonstrations that he had ‘never seen so many white people.' The channel clarified in its apology that "Jon has covered major events such as this over a long career and this was a spontaneous comment reflecting his observation that in a London demonstration of that size, ethnic minorities seemed to be significantly under-represented."

It will be interesting to see if the charge of under-representation is challenged in its turn. I would guess not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:34 AM

Surely the most dangerous aspect of this whole dirty business is that it was pushed though on a single issue - control of immigration

I am sure we would all like to see some proof to substantiate such an absurd statement. More once upon a time nonsense

Scum like this pair need to be taken out of this debate -

scum definition: 1. a layer of unpleasant or unwanted material that has formed on the top of a liquid:

The sort of thing you find floating on top of a bog. Now what does that remind me of?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 05:07 AM

A racist outed already and I've not had breakfast yet
It's gonna be a great day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 06:08 AM

An outbreak of racism by a Brexit supporter denying that racism has anything to do with Brexit - you couldn't make it up !!!
Someone needs to tell Robinson or Farage that their plant needs watering
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:13 AM

It seems that this disaster of a prime minister is trying again to bully her deal through, this time by insinuating that she might call an election if she doesn't succeed. Well that'll be another Commons vote she'll lose if she tries that one on. She needs a two-thirds majority before she can call an election. Labour may say yes but a huge wodge of Tories and the breakaway group will say no. I think an election would be a terrible idea. Assuming that it would happen during a longer extension, it would be fought on a single issue. Both major parties' hands would be tied in the campaign for fear of alienating the public via any sniff of a suggestion that "democracy is being betrayed" or " the will of the people is being ignored." It would quite likely give us another hung parliament and, worse still, as far as brexit is concerned we'd be back to square one. I think the Labour leadership know this, and have only been bellyaching for an election from the luxurious position of knowing that she can't or won't call one. It can hardly be said that Labour are playing a blinder in all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

Just put it up on the other thread
The Sunday Times has erported that not only is Parliament unable to agree on a way forward but the splits in the Cabinet make it totally unable to act as a Governing body
Next step - send in the army to Govern Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:20 AM

"We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."

― Konstantin Josef Jireček

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:31 AM

"It can hardly be said that Labour are playing a blinder in all this."

'All this' is the result of Conservatives, beginning with CaMoron, and ending with the bunch of scrotes in charge now, putting party before country.

They started it, they've kept everyone else out so that they could have it all their own way, so they should be left to deal alone with the results of their ill-deeds. The Labour Party should steer well clear of having any involvement whatsoever in this cataclysmic balls-up, as should all the other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:07 AM

I may be changing my mind about how well Labour are playing this. The Gateshead speech where Corbyn was emphasising all the other things that matter apart from Brexit is not a bad foundation for a potential manifesto. That the Tories own the chaos of Brexit and Labour is focusing on job security, education, the NHS and other bread-and-butter issues could be a good position to be in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

"I may be changing my mind about how well Labour are playing this."
I said some time ago that Corbyn was either attempting to appease his own Brexiteers to keep his supporters on top or was dithering - my continuing faith in him depended on which was
My hope is that you are right - we don't want another Tory party that calls itself 'Labour'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 11:38 AM

"I may be changing my mind about how well Labour are playing this. The Gateshead speech where Corbyn was emphasising all the other things that matter apart from Brexit is not a bad foundation for a potential manifesto. That the Tories own the chaos of Brexit and Labour is focusing on job security, education, the NHS and other bread-and-butter issues could be a good position to be in."

Right on the nail, DMcG. Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 12:01 PM

I hope you are right DMcG. Only time will tell but my money is currently on Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM

I wasn't saying that Labour carry any responsibility for the farce. They (we) don't. But there has been a long-standing suspicion that Jeremy is a closet leaver who has refused to speak up for the overwhelming majority of party members who voted remain. He's made it harder for us to make the argument. Just because a large number of Labour constituencies came out for leave, it doesn't absolve him from making the case for what would be in the country's best interests, which all but the terminally insane know is for this country to remain a member of the EU. Certainly his softer brexit would be better than May's deal, but it still isn't good enough. I don't want to see political vote-saving compromises. I want to see an honest case being made for what is best for the country, and he's run scared of doing that. I'm disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 05:29 PM

“But there has been a long-standing suspicion that Jeremy is a closet leaver"
If I thought there was a better choice I would have no desire to support a bunch of Capitalist states
Given the racist nature of the decision to leave,, the populist tactics which brought about that decision, the immediate spike in racism in Britain, Trump's taking heart from the Brexiteer's use of populism to take power power in the US, Peter Casey's use of populism to fight an Irish Presidential election, the rise of extremist right wing parties based on destroying the EU.... I don;'t thing there is a workable alternative
Better the devil you have a say in than one you don't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 06:41 PM

I still support Jeremy and I'm still a card-carrying member, Jim, and I know that there's no better alternative. It's one hundred percent a Tory mess. I couldn't be any clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:50 PM

It's a funny old world isn't it? Mrs May promised us Brexit and, it would seem, can't deliver it. Corbyn always wanted to leave the EU but now as leader can't say what he personally wants and has to agree to a contrary party line. He sits on the fence and opposes anything Mrs May tries to do.

Anyone who thinks that either party comes out of this looking well is living in cloud cuckoo land. As a long time Conservative I'm all in favour of a general election as long as Mrs May is no longer our leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:18 PM

But what Mrs May is trying to do would be very damaging for the country. Every economist, including the ones advising the government, have said as much. And I challenge you to tell me what, post-election, whatever the outcome, would happen next. Whether it would be any better than what we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM

You missed out, in parenthesis, 'Who is against Brexit', as you are. And no vicious personal insults. Steve you are letting your standards slip.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:28 AM

"And no vicious personal insults"
Isn't contanly ignoring what people have to say "insulting"
You never reply to what has been put up - not ever
It seems some people appear to regard argument as insult
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:42 AM

More accurate than that, stanron, would be to put "except Prof Minford and his team" in parentheses. Unless you can name some economists not associated in any way with Minford? Even Minford accepts that the UK farming and industrial sectors could be severely damaged, but sees this as a rebalancing between producers and consumers.   I think even so most people would regard a severe shrinkage of those sectors as "very damaging for the country". (Certainly, if we came under sort of sanctions in the future for whatever reason, our ability to withstand them would be severely hampered. That ability to be independent is a form of sovereignty, by the way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:07 AM

Nigel and I have been comparing predictions, which I summarised as

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing.


Since it is now 1st April, I thought I would check up where we were. I think we will all agree that my half was right: we are still trying to decide what to do. However, it turns out I don't have Nigel's prediction quite right. What he said was:

====
Subject: RE: BS: Predictions for the coming new year
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:46 PM

UK will leave EU on WTO terms.

====
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)

====
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?
====


Read all that very carefully, and we can see Nigel never quite predicted we would leave on 29th March...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM

"All this from the plastic paddy"
Can the mods please do soething with these persistent racist attacks on forum members ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 05:38 AM

On second thoughts
Parhaps somebody who objects to being accused of racism using terms like "plasic Paddy" and who objects to being called a ""Little Englander" by suggesting that if you don't live in England you have no right to an opinion on what goes on there, is in need of help rather than disciplining   
You really couldn't make this up if you were script-writing for Spitting Image
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:16 PM

I knew some Brexiteer would immediately yelp about the motions Bercow selected, so I was hardly surprised when Farage tweeted:


The 4 motions Bercow has just selected for votes tonight are all Remain and all continue uncontrolled free movement.

Really not keen on Parliament having control, is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM

Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM

Farage is wrong as usual. The only one of those motions which would continue free movement, not uncontrolled of course, it never has been uncontrolled, is the Boles motion. Clarke's customs union would not. Kyle's motion would allow a vote on it. And Cherry's would just prevent an utter catastrophe.

And in any case, free movement is a massive boon for the people, particularly the young and ambitious people, of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

"Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?"
A Tory who thinks he is Donald Trump methinks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

"Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?"
A Tory who thinks he is Donald Trump methinks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM

Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?

The government cannot resubmit motions a second time however those that have hijacked the Parliamentary process merely have to change the name of the person submitting the motion in order to submit it times without measure.
The crowning insult is grubby little corbyn 3 line whipping for free movement despite the total opposite on their election manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:51 PM

John Bercow has cooked up yet another Speaker’s Stitch-up Special with his selections for tonight’s second batch of indicative votes tonight. Bercow selected only four Remainer motions for MPs to vote on tonight. They are more or less identical to the ones which were all rejected just five days ago:

    C (Clarke) – Customs Union – already rejected 272-264
    D (Boles) – Common Market 2.0 – already rejected 283-188
    E (Kyle) – Second referendum – already rejected 295-268
    G (Cherry) – Revoke Article 50 – already rejected 293-184

Bercow refused to allow any Brexiteer motions including John Baron’s Motion A on a unilateral right of exit from the backstop. Despite this previously securing a majority in the Commons in the form of the Brady Amendment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:09 PM

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

From The Sunday Times and The New Law Journal today......

"David Wolchover sets out why moves are afoot to prosecute the prime minister for misconduct in public office

On Friday 22 March Oxford University Professor of Physics Joshua Silver and I formally asked Westminster Magistrates' Court for a summons against the prime minister alleging misconduct in public office, a crime under common law carrying a maximum of life imprisonment. The application was adjourned to April 9 for a full oral hearing before the Deputy Senior District Judge for England and Wales.

This is no stunt. Nobody is above the law, least of all high officers of state administering major government business. Although the allegation concerns the activation of Article 50 on 29 March 2017, the conclusive evidence only surfaced in January, as I recently revealed in New Law Journal ('Did activating Article 50 constitute an indictable offence?' 12 March 2019).

Our case essentially hinges on the statutory basis of the European Referendum 2016. As the Supreme Court affirmed in the landmark Miller decision it was no more than 'advisory,' the commons briefing paper on the EU Referendum Bill having explained that the proposed ballot was of a 'type . . . known as pre-legislative or consultative which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions.' Not only was that definition never disavowed by the Cameron Government but it was implicitly adopted by Minister for Europe David Lidington during the Commons Committee stage of the Bill. This did not deter David Cameron and his ministers from repeatedly stating that they would 'honour' the outcome. But those avowals were, as the Supreme Court further held, no more than political and were based on no legal foundation.

In the Webster case last year the Administrative Court confirmed that the EU (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017, passed in response to Miller, had delegated to the prime minister the discretionary power to make the Article 50 withdrawal decision. But that discretion was not unfettered. Since the referendum was not legally determinative of the leave/remain issue but merely advisory I would contend that the prime minister was constitutionally debarred from making the withdrawal decision exclusively on the basis of the referendum result.

Instead, she was duty bound to abide by that universal precept of rational policy-making, the obligation to scrutinise methodically all relevant and tangible factors. It's what sensible people do in their own lives. We don't buy a car simply because it's red. Good governance is no different.

But we now know that in deciding to activate Article 50 the prime minister ignored everything but the referendum outcome. Strong suspicions about this were provoked by the government's vacillations in Parliament over the impact assessments and were finally confirmed in the response by the Cabinet Office on January 23 to a Freedom of Information request by Action for Europe's Richard Bird.

As I argued in my New Law Journal article, the democratic imperative was not satisfied simply by implementing the statistically insignificant slight tilt towards leave. What counts is the constitutional imperative of rationally examining all relevant considerations. Constitutional imperatives are legal ones. They are the law and without the rule of law, democracy is meaningless. The prime minister deliberately flouted her constitutional obligations. With potentially disastrous consequences she broke the law.

It might be countered that the prime minister must have assimilated all the leave/remain arguments put forward during the referendum campaign and the passage of the EU (Notice of Withdrawal) Bill. But exposure to tendentious, if not mendacious, assertions advanced in the emotionally charged context of the debate on whether to continue our membership of the EU can hardly equate to dispassionate scrutiny of expert, systematically researched and detailed multi-disciplinary impact predictions. We now know that no such assessments were undertaken until those which were commissioned by the Department for Exiting the EU at the earliest in late 2017. There were no formal consultations outside Parliament and of course no public inquiry has ever been held.

It is inconceivable that Mrs May was on a frolic of her own when she activated Article 50. She was plainly supported and encouraged by her cabinet colleagues and since it may be comfortably assumed that they too had no regard for any factors apart from the referendum outcome it can be inferred that to a man and woman they were aiding and abetting her. No doubt this will be confirmed by cabinet minutes to which as yet the public are not privy. But there can be no safety in numbers. Collective responsibility will not exculpate any one of them, whether the prime minister or her colleagues.

This brings us to the impending Conservative leadership contest. If her successor was in the cabinet on the fatal date it may be appropriate to add that individual to the indictment. In the next few days we shall therefore be considering for the time-being a postponement of our application.

David Wolchover is a barrister at Ridgeway Chambers and Article6Law, 2 King's Bench Walk."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

Britain has been without an effective gobvenment for some time now yet still the Brexit Braindeads talk about 'stitch-ups' un order to move things one way or the other - patriots who accuse critics of the elected government of being "traitors"
While i's comfortable to see them all running around like headless chickens it makes you wonder who's minding the store
I'm sure our patriotic friends here could tell us
Clowns all - inside and outside politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:26 PM

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

Some people are far too gullible on All Fools Day.
The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum.

Was that long post really worth quoting?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:28 PM

I'm pretty certain that if you could ask Bercow why he rejected the motion concerning unilaterally leaving the backstop, he would tell you that he doesn't want MPs wasting time debating a motion that would be impossible to execute. The whole point of the backstop is that any decision to leave it must be made by both sides agreeing with each other. If we could leave it without the EU's agreement it wouldn't be a backstop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:40 PM

Eric Bogle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzoh0e_YOiI

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:48 PM

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

Some people are far too gullible on All Fools Day.
The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum.

Was that long post really worth quoting?

Really? Sunday 31/3/19 sounds like yesterday to me. After all 31/3/1919 was a Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:50 PM

"Was that long post really worth quoting?"
I think the answer lies in the name 'Farcebook' Nigel
Some people welcome a distraction from the daily horror of having to pick their way over the ruins of real news - keeps us from grabbing a rope and looking for a lamppost
This has got to be more and more like a daily display of nasty children throwing their toys out of their pram (nicely reflectedby the Brexiteers here
Apart from Codeword, my only pleasure in buying a newspaper is to join the newsagent in curling up over the antics of "them lot over there"
Britain has become the laughing stock of the world - even Trump is drawing a line on America's dealings if ther is a 'no deal' crashing out
When lunatics like him wash their hands of the shenanigans of the asylum things have gone badly awry
The economist who predicted that Brexit would break up the UK and destroy the economy got that one right
Must go, 'That Was the UK That Was' is on tele shortly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM

Ummm... today is Monday. And when I googled The Times for Sunday 31st, I found the following:

PM could suffer a new m'luddy nose | Comment | The Sunday Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/.../pm-could-suffer-a-new-m-luddy-nose-znpjk2rvt

March 31 2019, 12:01am, The Sunday Times

By Roland White, www.thetimes.co.uk View Original March 31st, 2019

You wouldn't think matters could get much worse for Theresa May, but she could soon be prosecuted over Brexit. In nine days' time a judge will consider whether she should be charged with misconduct in a public office.

Professor Joshua Silver, an Oxford physicist, and barrister David Wolchover claim the government did not take proper account of impact assessments before triggering article 50. "The prime minister wilfully ignored all such assessments and wrongly made her decision exclusively on the outcome of the referendum," they say. "She deliberately broke the law, with potentially catastrophic consequences."

How apt that a physicist intervenes just as the entire Brexit process seems to be collapsing into a black hole.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM

Cross-posted with Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM

This is the link I googled into:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/pm-could-suffer-a-new-m-luddy-nose-znpjk2rvt

(Sorry, DMcG, I misinterpreted your "Monday" comment... d'oh)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:11 PM

"The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum."

Errrmm....no, you half-baked, nitpicking nitwit, the italicised part is from FaceBook, the plain text part was mine, and the date is 31st March, 2019 - yesterday!

Back to school, nitpicker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:14 PM

And remember the old adage, nitpicker - "Nobody likes a clever-shit".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:26 PM

Having got interested in the subject now, ISO 8601:2000 defined how two digit years were interpreted, but this is no longer a standard. Excel interprets years 00-29 to be 2000-2029 by default, but this is changeable. Other systems use a different 'change over point'. IBM use 40 so 00-39 are interpreted as 2000-2039 and 40-99 as 1940-1999.   

I have not found a system that thinks 19 represents 1919 yet, and don't think it worth exploring further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:27 PM

but 31/3/19... suggests that something has been left out after the '19' making it a date in the twentieth century.
A standardised form for dates would be useful, if people kept to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM

Thanks DMcG and BS, but I suggest you don't waste time on answering our nitpicker friend. In DD/MM/YY date format, it's a given that the third element refers to the current century, any fule no that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:35 PM

...apart from, apparently, our nitpicker-imbecile friend.

Good old Musket used to have a two-word expression that he used to describe idiots, which he abbreviated to 'TC'. Appropriate for our nitpicker, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:40 PM

And another adage the nitpicker would do well to keep in mind...."When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". (WPA (Will) Rogers).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM

John Bercow aka ‘Mr Squeaker’?

    He is the very model of a modern minor genital,
    His exclamations patronising, animal, imperial,
    He is the Prince of Parliament, he quotes debates historical,
    From Erskine May to made-up way, in order quite dishonourable.

..With information too on matters constitutional,
    His fabrication aptitude is very close to criminal,
    In short in matters statesmanlike, both legally and practical,
    He occupies a swamp of bilge and is in fact piratical.

....with abject apologies to Gilbert and Sullivan

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

Well, after today anything that Parliament/government can desperately scrabble together as a "compromise" is going to look like a bodge. We need breathing space.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM

And they refuse the people a second vote !!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 02:51 AM

Thanks DMcG and BS, but I suggest you don't waste time on answering our nitpicker friend

Oh, I wasn't. I am afraid when someone has the choice of admitting they made a mistake and instead works hard to explain how it must be someone else in error however foolish it makes them look, it is obvious that any further discussion on the point is futile.


No, I was interested in whether there actually are any international standards for interpreting two digit years. That was completely independent to discussing the specific example.   In short, there isn't. unless the contest is 100% clear. In a book talking about the Napoleonic Wars, for example, the century would be clearly understood in most cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:02 AM

On the question of 'fudge': I am not certain. The distinction between a fudge and a compromise, in my interpretation, is that a fudge is a phrase or arrangement where the two sides can interpret it differently, and I am not at all sure there is scope for that, because whatever we end up with will be international law.

Since Labour whipped for three of the options, and the rest of the opposition was broadly in line, I see very little scope for changing the numbers on the opposition benches: merging some motions is very unlikely to achieve anything in itself. So I think Nick Boles was right to blame the Conservatives for not being prepared to compromise. To clarify, I do not mean those like the ERG, but any Conservative MP who voted against a no-deal, but also against any way to ensure that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM

"Oh, I wasn't. I am afraid when someone has the choice of admitting they made a mistake and instead works hard to explain how it must be someone else in error however foolish it makes them look, it is obvious that any further discussion on the point is futile."

Yep, I completely agree. Sadly, some people's need to 'win' over-rides everything else, so they indulge in picking smaller and smaller nits, and thus making themselves appear increasingly ridiculous.

"No, I was interested in whether there actually are any international standards for interpreting two digit years. That was completely independent to discussing the specific example.   In short, there isn't. unless the contest is 100% clear. In a book talking about the Napoleonic Wars, for example, the century would be clearly understood in most cases."

But there is something called 'common sense', which the vast majority of us here have, with one or two notable, nit-picking exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:22 AM

But there is something called 'common sense', which the vast majority of us here have

Yes indeed. And Excel's algorithm (for example), of treating 00-29 as 2000-2029 and 30-99 as 1930-1999 is an attempt to implement that common sense interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:44 AM

I guess that will be a rolling date in the algorithm. Pretty much like the date for brexit :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM

I>And they refuse the people a second vote !!!!!!!!

A rather silly remark. If the first vote of the people in the recent referendum is ignored, what notice would be taken of a second?

In a democracy the winner wins(or is supposed to) Why do leftards require that this very simple concept be explained to them repeatedly.

Does their socialist sense of entitlement make them think the majority csn be ignored and over ridden? Their constant whining is getting tiresome.

This is very similar to democrats trying to depose the President on all sorts of trumped up charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:02 AM

"A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy"
Liam Fox, former Brexit Secretary, 2012.

Such a simple, easily understood concept (unless you happen to be a Right-Wing Extremist, apparently).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

Correction - the quote was from another rabid BrexShiteer, David Davis, not Liam Fox. But it's still just as ironic, bearing in mind that Right Wing Extremist BrexShiteers are apparently completely incapable of understanding such a simple concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM

The government has shown without a vestige of doubt that they are totally incapable of Governing
The have now done the lot - bullied, bribed sectarian politicians, passed the the buck onto others for what it their problem, driven panicking industries out of Britain, fragmented their own party, spiked racism, set the British People one against the other, destabilised the future of Britain for decades to come.... and they are still no clearer on where Britain should go from here
A rudderless nation is detrimental, not only to itself but to the well-being of the planet in the current situation
These are unnecessarily dangerous times and these people are more concerned about their own careers and ambitions than they are of the people who put them into office   
Time to f... them off out of it

"A rather silly remark."
You have already made your name as a web creeper - can you stop stalking me please ?
If you have anything intelligent to say and can manage it without the usual Trump-like racist abuse, say it - not that you'll get a response most o us have become sick to death of your behaviour

Good to see that you've leapt out of yet another closet and added 'supporter of a racist, misogynist, unstable, and traitorous world leader to your CV'
You're going to need a carpenter to replace those worn-out hinges
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:22 AM

Jim, I don't known how many more times or in how many different ways we can we can say ignore him. You have nothing to prove. It is obvious what he is and why he does it but you keep taking the bait.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM

No bait
He needs to stop or be stopped, his persistent behaviour is intolerable; it's totally beyond be why he should be allowed to continue
People have been thrown off this forum for far less - persistent personally aimed racial abuse seems more than enough to me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:03 AM

Mudcat advice on how to deal with trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:12 AM

Good to see that you've leapt out of yet another closet and added 'supporter of a racist, misogynist, unstable, and traitorous world leader to your CV'

little jimmie the "I Insult no one" plastic paddy publicly displaying his mendacity for all the world to see.
You could not make it up!(unlike the scouser-who makes up everything)

persistent personally aimed racial abuse seems more than enough to me
Says the idiot that repeatedly labels the valiant eminently sensible Brexiteers as racist little englanders.

Carrol if you wish to continually act as a pig ignorant abusive bigot you can hardly bleat when these self evident truths are pointed out to you. It is hardly my fault that you are have insufficient mental capacity to see this. It is you that is the mental midget. as you demonstrate time after time. Have you considered remedial classes? I am told they help!.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:22 AM

I said bodge, DMcG, not fudge.

I'm becoming more certain by the day that remain would lose another referendum. Too few people have changed their minds and there will be a backlash from indignant people who might be remain-minded but who would see another vote as being an insult to democracy. There would also be a lot of abstaining or just not bothering. And the leave campaign would be toxic. That worked last time and they would hold even more populist cards this time. An even more useless ploy would be a snap election. It would solve absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM

An even more useless ploy would be a snap election. It would solve absolutely nothing.

I am coming to the point of view that an election is precisely what is required. The present nest of vipers in the commons need to be reminded forcefully that the electorate expects them to honour their promises.
The referendum result requires implementation, otherwise democracy is destroyed and the executive betrays the trust of the people.
   A reset is the only way forward.
Farage for PM and Rees Mogg as foreign secretary would make me very happy.

The war of Independance in America was fought on the basis of no taxation without representation. Therefore I would argue for as long as we make payments to the EU we maintain our seats in the EU parliament. To act in any other way smacks of reparations for a war we have not lost. Mays withdrawal treaty suffers from the same problem and must not stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM

I said bodge, DMcG, not fudge.

My mistake, sorry.

You may well be right about a second referendum. The more it is seen as rerun of the first, rather than a different question, the more open it is to manipulation. That is one reason I have always thought this really needs to be resolved in Parliament, but they appear unwilling to do so. I doubt if a general election will help either. Labour have kept a good focus on things that really matter to people - jobs, education, the NHS - but as Larkin would say the toad Brexit squats on their manifesto too, and I see no good way round that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM

In an impassioned speech, Ms Widdecombe said: “We’ve got the worst Prime Minister since Anthony Eden.

“We’ve got the worst leader of the opposition in the entire history of the Labour party.

“And we’ve got the worst Parliament since Oliver Cromwell.”

I agree!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:58 AM

"Mudcat advice on how to deal with trolls."
There is also instruction on being abusive Dave
Antway - had my rant on this perticuar Trump/troll for the day - "tomorrow is another day"

A Civil Rights Group in Northern Ireland has now drawn attention to Northern Ireland born citizens living in the Republic and how Brexit's Brave New World will affect their rights and the progress of The Belfast agreement and the Peace Process

Steve,
Don't agree with your take on a second vote
A survey has already indicated that the Remainers have a clear guarantee - if this is not enough, surely none of those who couldn't ae their minds up to vote the first time will not be stupid enough to stay at home after these years long displays of ineptitude
In a worse-case scenario - if the second vote was to leave, at least there would be no doubt of that fact
The lying excuse that a second vote would divide the country is hypocritical, undemocratic politicking - it would do just the opposite
May has suggested that the British people are incapable of accepting a Democratically arrived at decision with her insulting suggestion
I've never know a revolt in Britain against a General Election result - has anybody ??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:09 AM

obviously all very depressing. at no point has any conservative politician ever had the courage to stand up to the nicotine-stained fascist man frog or his buddies in the more weird yet dangerous wing of the party. (and labour aren't much better)or the DUP - the idea that these tiny groups of very unpleasant and regressive people are driving the political agenda and causing immense division and conflict in our society is incredible. when farage and his thuggish supporters talk about 'betrayal' and 'treachery' they are deliberately intimidating our mps and all of us who dare to disagree or even attempt to put a bit of nuance into the debate. their like should be prosecuted for hate crimes - and murder in the case of Jo Cox. while in jail they could be forced to watch re-runs of the opening ceremony of the london olympics to remind them of the sort of country that the majority of us would prefer. and made aware that this is the country that raised them - not the grubby, wee bitter, little england with it's racism, greed,hunting and their sneering contempt of all who try to live in a happier, more positive, way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:14 AM

Amen, Pete.

Ain't gonna happen though, no matter how hard we hope for it. Their tax-dodges take priority over everyone else's best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 07:03 AM

And amen John, Pete and DMcG...

Ann Widdecombe is pure pantomime, a plight of her own making. I saw her last night and I couldn't help thinking of Cissie and Ada but without the laughs. Strike me down...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 07:05 AM

A survey has already indicated that the Remainers have a clear guarantee>/I>

A clear guarantee of what?   I do like a reasoned discussion!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 07:27 AM

"Steve,
Don't agree with your take on a second vote
A survey has already indicated that the Remainers have a clear guarantee - if this is not enough, surely none of those who couldn't ae their minds up to vote the first time will not be stupid enough to stay at home after these years long displays of ineptitude..."

Well a survey I read about just yesterday (can't remember for the life of me where I read about it) suggested that remain/leave was at 54%/46% with a lot of undecideds (who weren't included in the totting up). That isn't comfortable at all, I don't think. Many remainers were reluctant remainers, and a good number would see another vote (incorrectly) as an affront to democracy. They might either abstain or even vote leave next time round. On the other hand, I should think that just about every leave voter, and more, would be indignant enough to turn out again next time round. And the leave campaign would be the joker in the pack. You can just see it now: democracy betrayed, the will of the people thwarted...all bollocks, but incredibly hard to counteract.

I wouldn't argue against another vote on these grounds just because I think the result would be the wrong one, but, let's face it, whatever the result it would be another close-run thing, and a narrow remain victory would foment huge trouble. On top of that, I can't bring myself ever to want any referendum about anything at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:17 AM

New ComRes polling commissioned by Leave Means Leave yesterday has found a significant shift in favour of a No Deal Brexit, with voters agreeing with the statement “Theresa May should go back to her promise that No Deal is better than a bad deal and leave to trade on WTO rules” by 63% to 37%, excluding don’t knows. Including don’t knows, just 29% disagree with it…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:22 AM

It seems fairly inevitable from a statement from the EU that unless the marathon 5 hour Cabinet meeting (by a Cabinet that is incapable of finding its own arse with both hands) reaches a decision today, the two alternatives are to crash out or put Brexit on yet another long finger (the latter is very unlikely, the former would be devastating for Britain and its neighbours)
Brexit has drawn out venomous rats by their swarms now, Robinson, Farage and now THESE SCUM
Bastards like these thrive on instability of the kind that Britain is now heading for
We live in dangerous times, to avoid allowing the vermin feeding on a leadership incapable of leading and a people who are rapidly reaching the point of simply not caring, something has to be done - and quick
Someone needs to re-read pre-war history
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:29 AM

Oh, dear, what a leading question.

All that actually shows is that the risk of people being manipulated is indeed very high.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:34 AM

The poll above, if accurate, shows a wide divergence of the two camps compared to all other polls over the last two years.
I see we have three choices
crash out no deal
May's treaty trapping us within the EU with no representation
Have a long extension(getting more and more unlikely) and renegotiate with a brand new elected team after an inevitable election.

This is what the endless betrayal and prevarication of MPs has brought us to.

Heaping insults on brexiteers and calling them vermin just shows the total inadequacy of the remainers arguments as they continue to try to frustrate the clearly stated wishes of the majority.

When will all the whining finally stop I wonder?

Bring on the crash!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 08:43 AM

We have another choice which is to revoke article 50, and put the whole sorry episode behind us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 09:06 AM

David Carter We already have Parliament usurping the government in the Commons. Constitutionally this is new territory with zero accountability. Couple that will betrayal of article 50 and I think revolt will occur.
If legislation is forced through by an unaccountable body democracy has ceased and parliament no longer has legitimacy.
This may make remainiacs very happy but only until the unintended consequences kick in(or more likely kick off. Be very careful of whatyou wish for!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 09:38 AM

"On top of that, I can't bring myself ever to want any referendum about anything at all."
Perhaps you should read how they've moved Ireland on from the first half of the 20th century by some of the progressive decisions that have been taken comparatively recently
Trusting the people really has worked a treat here as have public displays of disapproval, despite indifference and opposition on the part of politicians and parties
The rules for referenda need to be well-thought out and a block put on the use of the type of populism that gave the world Brexit and Trump - the use of 'scapegoating' needs to be outlawed
Britain allowed Farage and the now discredited Ukip to run riot a disgraced Party and a swaggering no-nothing
Not something to be proud of
The other aspect of Irish democracy that is preventing a mess like Britain has become is Proportional Representation - it is noteworthy that this was the fist think to be discarded in the creation of a sectarian State in the Northern Counties
Whatever the result of Brexit, it's going to take a long time before anybody takes British Parliamentary Politics seriously again - inside and outside the UK
A sharp cleaning out of the Augean Stables might - just - do it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 09:38 AM

"On top of that, I can't bring myself ever to want any referendum about anything at all."
Perhaps you should read how they've moved Ireland on from the first half of the 20th century by some of the progressive decisions that have been taken comparatively recently
Trusting the people really has worked a treat here as have public displays of disapproval, despite indifference and opposition on the part of politicians and parties
The rules for referenda need to be well-thought out and a block put on the use of the type of populism that gave the world Brexit and Trump - the use of 'scapegoating' needs to be outlawed
Britain allowed Farage and the now discredited Ukip to run riot a disgraced Party and a swaggering no-nothing
Not something to be proud of
The other aspect of Irish democracy that is preventing a mess like Britain has become is Proportional Representation - it is noteworthy that this was the fist think to be discarded in the creation of a sectarian State in the Northern Counties
Whatever the result of Brexit, it's going to take a long time before anybody takes British Parliamentary Politics seriously again - inside and outside the UK
A sharp cleaning out of the Augean Stables might - just - do it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM

The rules for referenda need to be well-thought out and a block put on the use of the type of populism that gave the world Brexit and Trump - the use of 'scapegoating' needs to be outlawed
Britain allowed Farage and the now discredited Ukip to run riot a disgraced Party and a swaggering no-nothing

A stunning example of a total misunderstanding of the democratic electoral process and a wilful contempt for the rule of law. What a halfwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:39 AM

Rule of Law - Bingo !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 10:59 AM

My abject apologies fellers but a Brexiteer scurrying behind 'The Rule of Law' was really too good an opportunity to pass up
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

My abject apologies fellers

We need far far more grovelling off you first!

"The Prime Minister’s continental counterparts have given her just six days to make her Brexit strategy clear ahead of an emergency summit in Brussels next week. Amid fears of a no-deal Brexit, Europe has urged Mrs May to details on whether she will pursue a hard divorce or a long Article 50 extension. EU leaders’ intervention comes after another failed attempt by MPs in Westminster to build a majority for an alternative Brexit plan last night."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 11:56 AM

Funny I thought she'd had almost 3 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 12:23 PM

"Funny I thought she'd had almost 3 years."
Somebody ought to get life for this criminal behaviour
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM

Bye bye treason May. Gone within the week. Connive with corbyn and destroy the tories. Election coming!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM

May calls for a 'National Unity' approach to Brexit and proposes a meeting with Corbyn on an agreed way forward
Talk on internal coup by the hardliners
Sounded like a wartime broadcast to me
"Westminster calling - Westminster calling"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

Gone within a week? I think not, but on 9th we can revisit your prediction. Remember the EU summit is on the 10th.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 02:52 PM

TOMMY ROBINSON CALLING - TOMMY ROBINSON CALLING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:18 PM

'Treason May' eh.

What happened to we must be respectful to our politicans?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:29 PM

"Mrs May further angered the Tory backbenchers by stating her intentions to work with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to “try to agree a plan". Mr Rees-Mogg slammed Mrs May’s strategy to work with ”a known Marxist” and insisted the public “did not vote for a Corbyn-May coalition Government”. European Research Group chairman also warned the Prime Minister history did not show success for political leaders who tried to get policy through the Commons "on the back of Opposition votes". The leading Brexiteer added this approach is “deeply unsatisfactory” and is “not in the interests of the country”.

Colluding with commie corbyn is going to end in tears for the tories.

The plot thickens. They are setting the stage where each can blame the other for the betrayal of brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 06:46 PM

Oooh, I believe a cage has been rattled!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 07:30 PM

Just ignore or talk past the daft bugger, Raggytash.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

"Oooh, I believe a cage has been rattled!!"
Apparently so
This is the feller who claims it's Anglophobic to critcise British politicians and that you have to apply for a visa if you wish to do so
I've changed my mind about wanting him gone - I think we need an example of what's happening to Britain
Raggy's right, of course - 'hands off cocks and on with your socks' - a new day dawns

Just received a long document from Google explaining the changes to their relationship with those living outside the U.K. don't understand a word of it, but I suppose I shall when I buy anything on line
Off for the paper later - can't wait for my morning laugh-in with the local farmers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

If she’d made BrexShit a cross-party project three years ago, we wouldn’t be in this disastrous dung-heap, and the laughing-stock of the rest of the world, that we are now.

But, of course, she had instructions from others - far wealthier, and thus, far more powerful than her - to obey, which meant she had to keep everyone else, including most of her own government, out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:34 AM

I have some sympathy for the right wing press who may either have to accept the demon Corbyn as a saviour, or say the Brexit he has helped negotiate is so bad you should vote remain in a deal/remain referendum.

Not a lot of sympathy, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM

Tread carefully, Jeremy. There's a trap afoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM

The Compassionate Fool

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM

Ha, that's brilliant! He's had plenty of people ringing alarm bells. As Polly Toynbee was saying this morning, Brexit is purely a Tory mess and Jeremy must ensure that Labour doesn't get tainted by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 07:47 AM

Wow, Jim. Saving that. (Pity it's written by someone called Cameron.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 07:48 AM

Whoa, sorry! I should be thanking DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:57 AM

Carry on mayhem! There is no need to make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:11 AM

"Tread carefully, Jeremy. There's a trap afoot."
Not sure there's a trap - traps take planning and the Tory's skill at that political art has become fairly obvious
I have more faith in Corbyn to avoid aligning himself with these morons than I would have in New Belabour and I don't see him as a career politician
He needs to remember that The Irish Labour Party were virtually wiped out for taking part in a coalition with rats in trouble
At least he hasn't used the crisis the Tories and Ukip have created for party-political advantage (never thought I'd say that) - the UK needs some form of co-operation to remove the wedge that has been driven between the British people
A divided country will inevitably lead to bloodshed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:24 AM

Jim posts: "the UK needs some form of co-operation to remove the wedge that has been driven between the British people"

What wedge is this? Between those who want to remain and those who want to leave the EU?

Jim posts: "A divided country will inevitably lead to bloodshed"
I get fed up with the politicians and political commentators who say this sort of thing. It just seems like stirring to me. The country is divided and it seems extremely unlikely that that will change in the foreseeable future.

I voted remain but was not surprised by the result. I thought it would be close and it was. I have little doubt that if we had another referendum the result would be close again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:41 AM

If you have another referendum why would you expect anybody to abide by the result? People who voted to leave would expect their vote to be ignored again and people who voted to remain would just ignore the result again. Nothing would be settled. It would be a totally worthless waste of money and time. Oh, but hang on! This is what Labour does. It wastes money and time. No surprise there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:10 AM

"What wedge is this? Between those who want to remain and those who want to leave the EU? "
Brexit was based on putting the blame for Britain's increasing problems on the number of foreigners coming in, which automatically had repercussions on British citizens from other ethnic backgrounds - the beginning of a wedge
The fact that the majority was as small as it was created an almost fifty-fifty division among those who voted, leaving those who didn't to stand and watch, I have little doubt, first in bewilderment, then in growing horror
The vicious animosity displayed by the leavers, hate mail, threats of recrimination... were outlined in an article in yesterday's Times by a non political remainer describing the behaviour of former friends and neighbours
None of this would have happened if Brexit had been planned

"I get fed up with the politicians and political commentators who say this sort of thing. "
And I get fed up with people who cant see what's under theirnoses
Before the echoes of the referendum result had died down, racist incidents, including acts of violence, had begun - these have continued way past the highest number ever recorded in British history

There you go - Can't blue clickie
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html

Jo Cox's widower, nice man as he appears to be, denied any connection between the murder of his wife and Brexit - I wonder would that still be his opinion ?

The 'White Jihadist' Nazi scum are about to be tried for plotting to murder a woman Labour MP -
Racist groups like any of Tommy Robinson's present or former parties you care to name, are becoming more active (it's no coincidence that Robinson was one of those who gave limited support to Brievik)
Populism that sold Brexit is based on prejudice, which in its turn, gives rise to racial and cultural tension, which, in its turn inevitably leads to violence
That train has already left the British station
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:13 AM

Stanron has already had his answer - many times but as he appears to make a point of ignoring everything anybody says, it seems a waste of energy to try again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM

Stanron wrote: No surprise there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:33 AM

"Stanron wrote: No surprise there then."
That's what I meant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM

JAMES - DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!

FFS, you’ve got the pair of them on your case, playing you like an old fiddle now - how many more bloody times do you need to be told?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:46 AM

Now cross-party talks are under way, it is worth revisiting the canard that both parties supported Brexit in their manifesto. This claim completely ignores the fact that they had dramatically different views of what Brexit was (and there is no reason whatever to assume all 17.4 million voted for the same thing, so there is good reason that at least some of the 17.4m meant what Labour meant)

For interest, here is an extract from the Labour manifesto:


Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first. We will prioritise jobs and living standards, build a close new relationship with the EU, protect workers’ rights and environmental standards, provide certainty to EU nationals and give a meaningful role to Parliament throughout negotiations. We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain. We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the        economy        first.        A Labour government will immediately guarantee existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain and secure reciprocal rights for UK citizens who have chosen to make their lives in EU countries. EU nationals do not just contribute to our society: they are part of our society. And they should not be used as bargaining chips.


So what Labour meant in their definition of Brexit included the benefits of single market, customs union, and protection of EU nationals. If that is not what you think Brexit is, then by definition you cannot claim that Labour promised whatever you do think it means in the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:56 AM

I've said this before and I won't be surprised if I say it again in the future. The only way to actually and fully leave the European Union is with 'No Deal'. Every little bit of a deal ties us to the European Union and it's rules. Remainers know this and this is why they insist on taking No Deal off the table. They want to take leaving the EU off the table. The stratagem is deeply dishonest but not unrecognised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 10:58 AM

Wasn't intending to - Stanron is what he is but he doesn't resort to personal abuse as does our resident representative Brexiteer who makes response unnecessary by his own behaviour (spoilsport)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 11:30 AM

Another minister resigned. The dominoes slowly tumble. The choice between troughing and conscience plays out slowly!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 12:08 PM

"Vote Leave, Get Remain.
Vote May, Get Corbyn.
Any Deal is Better than No Deal.
Ad vomitum. Even God himself appears to have had enough of this disingenuous lot."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

Isn't it great to see two partiots sneering at Britain's dilemma
On par with one of them gloating that Ireland would be dragged down into the swamp Brexit has created, higher up this thread
Humanity and compassion rules OK in their world - Nigel and Tommy should be proud of you
Ji, Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

You're a lying bastard

and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:15 PM

Had my fun
If you can't stand by what you said, don't say it or you'll later have to lie about it
Thanks for yet another display of Brexiteering - all goes into the profile (espacially the creativity that goes into it - genius - utter original genius)
G'night
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:24 PM

Very interesting article in the Guardian now highlighting some dirty tricks, alledgedly, by the leave campaign.

Seems some of their supporters have been paying for an advertising campaign on Facebook.

Could someone please link to the article 'Facebook Brexit Ad's secretly run by staff of former Tory advisors company'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM


Facebook ads run secretly run by staff of Lynton Crosby

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:38 PM

I do not believe that everyone who voted leave voted for a no dealbrexit i have talked to some who wanted the uk to be a similiar position to norway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:07 PM

If we do not have a clean break we need representatives in the EU Parliament. May's treaty hamstrings us where we are subject to EU law and taxation with no seat at the negotiating table.
We fetter ourselves to taxation without representation.

It is neither fish nor fowl, simply foul!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:32 PM

So remain is better than her deal in your view. Not your first choice, of course, but that is the case you make.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM

Exactly what I thought when I read his post, DMcG - he's described his preference for precisely what we have right now as members of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:03 PM

Perhaps after 3 years reality is starting to dawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 07:56 PM

What May is offering is not a deal,it is an international treaty that in many respects is worse than what we have now. It is not brexit, it is a betrayal. It is such a betrayal her own party cannot support it, she has to go cap in hand to a marxist. Her puppet masters must be very pleased by her performance. The only thing that May is offering is fetters and chains with the keys firmly held by the EU bureaucrats
17.4 million are still waiting for an election commitment to be honoured.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:14 PM

It takes a worried man
To sing a worried song...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:15 PM

Example of No Deal
According to the German association of the automotive industry, the country last year(2017 exported 769,000 cars to the UK, its single largest export market.If the UK were to join in a tariff war, the industry would suffer the commercial equivalent of a cardiac arrest.

Do you seriously think No Deal would cause anything other than a short term dislocation?
It is not the abyss it is painted to be. The only scare story that has come to pass is the reek of bullsh*t

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 08:30 PM

I agree. We should leave on WTO rules and then see what offers come our way. No one in our government has the nerve to implement this kind of exit. No one has the courage to stand up for our long term interests.

We'll get what we get. Probably a rubbish deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:00 PM

Well you voted for her!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:14 PM

I 'voted for her' in Manchester. A safe Labour seat.

Of course you favour Corbyn. He's a revolutionary socialist. What's that likely to do for your pension?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:29 PM

"We'll get what we get. Probably a rubbish deal."

What you said after nine years of Tory Britain. Stick to the point for once. YOU voted brexit, YOU voted May. YOU forgot to be careful what you wished for. This is a one hundred percent Tory mess, spawned by that man Cameron, who YOU also voted for. One hundred percent your mess. If you don't get what you want, tough shit, mate. Don't blame anyone else. The whole planet and his dog now knows that we are a damn sight better off staying as we are. That's what I've voted for all along. You and your sorry ilk did this to us, and, if we leave, you can be damn sure that we won't let you forget it. So no wonder you can never stick to the point. No "Marxist" ever got anywhere near this bloody mess. Your pension, if it gets hit, will be hit by a bloody mess that you Tories created all by your silly selves. So don't even think of blaming us. And I haven't even read any Marx.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM

Corbyn is a far from a 'revolutionary socialist' as you can get (total waste of time to ask for examples to back up to this claim)
He is an old guard Humanist Socialist of the type that helped create the promised "Home fit for heroes to live in" following the war
He's read Marx - most people who have an active interest in politics have - Thatcher boasted she had, as have numerous Tory leaders   

The head of the Bank of England yesterday described the STEADY DECLINE in the British economy yesterday and laid the blame squarely on Brexit - he said that crashing out would be catastrophic   
I was talking with a friend whose work as lecturer took him to Germany a few months ago - as a good Catholic, he was stunned at the official resurgence of an interest in Marx as a serious economist
As a young man Marx was a revolutionary, but his main work was as an Economist - 'Young Karl Marx is worth seeing (especially for mancunians)
Along with 'The Death of Stalin', it ranks as one of the best films ever made, in my opinion - both should be on any education curriculum

As someone whose sole income is a British State pension, the way things have gone and continue to go, it's ludicrous for a Tory to raise the issue of pensions - they become less valuable by the month
I suggest they go check on exactly what they are before they suggest that anybody can possibly live on them
Tory Policies (pursued by both parties to date) have led to a steady fall in the BRITISH STANDARD OF LIVING and the economic forecasts suggest twenty years of economic instability
I don't think any Tory is in a position to a claim of being taken seriously since the Brexit Show has bombed the way it has
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:17 AM

A REALITY CHECK FOR TORIES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM

If we do not have a clean break we need representatives in the EU Parliament.
incorrect, representatives can be nominated ,check your facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM

For all of that, Ians and Stanron, we have to go with something. Obviously your first choice is no deal, we understand that. The question was, if that is blocked for whatever reason, do you support the Withdrawal Agreement or remain? From what Ians wrote, it looks like remain for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM

Let's take that a stage further. According to rumour one of the things the cabinet discussed was using alternative votes for the government indicative votes with these options:

A: May's Deal
B: Labour's Deal
C: No deal
D: Revoke.

(No doubt with an amendable bill a second referendum and Malthouse compromise would be proposed as amendments, but they were not options being suggested.)


As an MP, you have to rank them. No option to say you would rather do something else, that's what's on the order paper. What would your order be?

Mine would be
Revoke
Labour
May
No deal

What would others say?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:18 AM

What is on offer is the bastard son of what was voted for.
Tied to the EU by a treaty with no representation.
For those with no knowledge of history it is worth pointing out that the
War of Independence, also known as the American Revolution and the Revolutionary War, was fought from 1775 to 1783 between Great Britain and the 13 British colonies in North America.No taxation without representation" is a slogan originating during the 1700s that summarized one of 27 colonial grievances of the American colonists in the Thirteen Colonies, which was one of the major causes of the American Revolution.
representatives can be nominated ,check your facts
Pray tell why the rush for a deal before the EU elections. Unless we have an election we will have no MEPs. Representatives are a totally different category of officials
May's Treaty leaves us locked in paying all sorts of reparations with no voice in the matter. It is many magnitudes worse than remaining members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:33 AM

Just spotted a good phrase to describe those who call those who wish to remain in the EU "remoaners" and want to force their views on everyone else. Brexitaliban :-)

On a more serious note, I concur with your choices DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM

Interesting comment yesterday about the motion on no deal where the speaker had to follow convention(to his utter partisan disgust)and cast his tiebreaker vote for nay.That one vote that tipped the balance could have been Labour's Fiona Onasanya, convicted for perverting the course of justice, wearing an electronic tag.

The bill itself, lest we forget, was proposed by Labour expenses fiddler Yvette Cooper who flipped her house several times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:39 AM

And after that protest, how would you rank the choices, Iain? As an MP, the house would be calling on you to vote. Telling it you are unhappy is all very well, but a vote is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:07 AM

Another raw nerve touched
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:15 AM

BREXIT TALIBAN
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:15 AM

BREXIT TALIBAN
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:37 AM

I should correct myself. Bercow cast a vote on Benn's motion to hijack the proceedings of the house.
The motion for denying no deal Brexit passed by a majority of one
(Fiona Onasanya trapsed through the Aye lobby complete with electronic ankle tag…)
A majority of one to frustrate no deal that frustrates a majority leave vote of 17.4 million. That is not democracy.

I find it quite incredible that the referendum majority voters are compared to a terrorist organisation whereas the remainiacs are regarded as being pure as driven snow by leftards here.
But as they are all staunch Corbinistas I suppose it should be no surprise.

a patriot

Another raw nerve touched
Don't fink so!
Just pointing out he is a purveyor of abject stupidity (something you should be extremely familiar with)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:55 AM

It is entirely up to you, Iain, if you face up to putting those options in order. But I have to say it looks more like you are adopting Violet Elizabeth's approach of "I'll thcream and thcream until I'm thick. I can!" rather than, say 1 Corinthians 13:11 (as I know you like the occasional biblical reference.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:58 AM

"something you should be extremely familiar with"
You've made sure all of us are Iains
Can't imagine anything more stupid than denying racism by using racist abuse - every bit as stupid as denying the threatening nature of Brexit with your usual anonymous abusive web-creeping would-be bullying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:23 AM

DMcG:
C: No deal
D: Revoke.
A: May's Deal (But if I had a vote on these options I would list only 1st & 2nd preferences)
B: Labour's Deal (Do we know what this is?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM

Thanks, Nigel. That is very much what I would have predicted, for you, Iains and Stanron. My biggest uncertainty is where revoke would fit in the rankings for each of you.

I agree there is no real definition of what exactly Labour's deal would be (and as I have before I think no more highly of red unicorns than blue ones), but I think we will all agree it would some form of closer alignment than May is proposing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM

Hard to notice that the voter's right to confirm their original decision appears nowhere on youtr list Nigel - Where has all the democracy gone ?
Nobody can remotely claim that things haven't both clarified or changed since the referendum
Some Labour MPs are demanding that second Referendum be a condition of Labour's co-operation - a sign that someone in Parliament understands the term 'democracy'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:41 AM


Hard to notice that the voter's right to confirm their original decision appears nowhere on your list Nigel - Where has all the democracy gone ?

Sorry, Jim, but Nigel is doing exactly what I asked. The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet so I specifically excluded that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:50 AM

Can't imagine anything more stupid than denying racism by using racist abuse - every bit as stupid as denying the threatening nature of Brexit with your usual anonymous abusive web-creeping would-be bullying
Still waiting for examples of my racism. Your last attempt merely made you look rather silly.(a familiar position for you to be in.)
You are losing it jimmie.

What is threatening about carrying out the clearly stated wishes of the majority? Yet again you display your bigotry and stupidity.
Shall I send you copies of the Janet and John books on how to construct a rational argument, or have you yet to progress beyond colouring books?

DMcG I would have thought I made my position quite clear.
No deal or stay in and send an army of wannabe Farages to the EU parliament and fight the good fight from within.
Future elections both in the UK and Europe will clearly show the electorate will not be sidestepped by treachery.
When democracy is being abandoned you are lucky that so far opposition is only words.

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind", which in turn comes from the chapter 8 of the Book of Hosea in the Old Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:56 AM


DMcG I would have thought I made my position quite clear


Nothing like as clear as putting A, B, C and D in some order, Iains. Are you saying you have the same order as Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:03 AM

If I do read Iains correctly as implying 'revoke' as his second choice like Nigel, that is quite a revelation to me and, I suspect, to cabinet. I am sure their strategy is that because Cherry's amendment did so badly, and because of shouts of "denying democracy", the cabinet assumed revoke would end up in last place in the first round and was only put in as a sop. Since they are the larger party, May's deal is likely to win out over a Labour proposal. So I think they are fairly confident May's deal would win in an Alternative Vote play-off. But if Nigel and Iains are typical, revoke could give a much stronger showing than that if it survived the first round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM

i have tried to ignore iain, he's just so offensive, and clearly happy to be defined that way. now i'm starting to be a little concerned about his sanity -he doesn't come across as very happy. once we get into quoting old testament stuff (not sure for what purpose here) that way proper madness lies.

(deuteronomy 24 reckons that if you have a disobedient child you should take him to the edge of the village and stone him to death. and don't even get him started on the horrors of shellfish or wearing mixed fibres...)

anyway, seriously iain- lighten up, none of this matters really...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM

"The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet"
I was not referring to your list, but to the fact that a second referendum is not being considered as an option by any of the Brexiteers
One of the things that has become quite clear about the necessity of one is that i has now become quite obvious that it is not in Britain's either short or long term interests to leave Europe - the Statement by the had of the Bank of England yesterday has confirmed that
To go ahead knowing this would be economic and social suicide, so the people need to be allowed to confirm their wishes

Pater
I wouldn't take too much notice of someone incapable of admitting that 'bog=trotter' and 'Plastic Paddy' are long standing offensive racist terms especially as he is the only user of them on this Forum
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM

"The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet"
I was not referring to your list, but to the fact that a second referendum is not being considered as an option by any of the Brexiteers
One of the things that has become quite clear about the necessity of one is that i has now become quite obvious that it is not in Britain's either short or long term interests to leave Europe - the Statement by the had of the Bank of England yesterday has confirmed that
To go ahead knowing this would be economic and social suicide, so the people need to be allowed to confirm their wishes

Pater
I wouldn't take too much notice of someone incapable of admitting that 'bog=trotter' and 'Plastic Paddy' are long standing offensive racist terms especially as he is the only user of them on this Forum
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:37 AM

one particularly irritating habit is to give other posters supposedly derogatory 'nicknames' - pete

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:12 AM

It's just been announced that The DUP has accused the government of being about to do a U-turn on a second referendum - not sure what they are basing that on - fingers crossed though

"one particularly irritating habit is to give other posters supposedly derogatory 'nicknames' - pete"
Stopped doing that a long time ago - at Joe Offer's request
Can't do much about my typos unless I cut my typing speed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

peteaberdeen you are right about the "none of this matters anyway".
Collapse of Earth and climate for human needs are proceeding with more far reaching events and effects than Brexit and political intrigue.
6,000 years from now a mosquito fart will have more importance than Brexit stupidity.
Brexit is one of a million dominos lined up and ready to fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:20 AM

Bastard is a response to your lying (as you have done in denying your persistent and obvious racism)
Hardly a derogatorty nickname, especially when it is an accurate description
A reminder of what you denied saying
and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face! >
Enough I think - I've allowed you to show yourself up quite adequately - one can take only so much recreation in one day
Move on - nothing to be seen here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:58 AM

DMcG:
But if Nigel and Iains are typical, revoke could give a much stronger showing than that if it survived the first round.

I put 'Revoke' in second place on the basis that Mrs May's 'deal' leaves us worse off than we were before, and the Labour Party deal has never been spelt out, but is not likely to be any improvement over Mrs may's deal.

If we can't get out with either a good deal, or with WTO terms, then at least revoking Article 50 will leave us in the position we were in prior to June 2016. We would have the opportunity to issue Article 50 again at a later date, after all the ramifications had been fully discussed, and an intended way forward in place.

As for a second referendum (which might become necessary if Article 50 was revoked). You didn't ask about it so I didn't respond (as you clearly stated).

If Jim wants to increase the scope of the question maybe he would like to ask his own, or at least give his response to your original one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:59 AM

Apropos of the meetings between May and Corbyn, there are just two ways in which Jeremy can come out of this unscathed: walk away, and soon, or get her to agree to put her deal (or whatever version of it they come up with) to the country in another referendum. Her deal or remain. Anything that alters her deal simply in order to get it through Parliament makes him the brexit midwife (a phrase not of my invention). Walk away or force a referendum, Jezza. And I hate referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:17 AM

Steve Shaw: or get her to agree to put her deal (or whatever version of it they come up with) to the country in another referendum. Her deal or remain.
But as most of those in favour of Brexit look on Mrs May's deal as BRINO (Brexit in name only) you would suggest putting to the public a referendum where the only two options were to remain in the EU. That would be a victory for Remain whatever the result.
As the Leave campaign won the first referendum, any further referendum would have to include an option which clearly got us out of the EU.

Would you, Steve, give us your opinion on how you would answer DMcG' question?

Let's take that a stage further. According to rumour one of the things the cabinet discussed was using alternative votes for the government indicative votes with these options:

A: May's Deal
B: Labour's Deal
C: No deal
D: Revoke.

(No doubt with an amendable bill a second referendum and Malthouse compromise would be proposed as amendments, but they were not options being suggested.)


As an MP, you have to rank them. No option to say you would rather do something else, that's what's on the order paper. What would your order be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:21 AM

There's no such thing as a "Labour deal" because, in this context, deals are made between two parties after negotiation, which is what Labour has not been involved with. But Labour has clearly and frequently expressed its aspirations for brexit, as follows:

— A permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU.that would deliver the frictionless trade that our businesses, workers and consumers need, and is the only viable way to ensure there is no hard border on the island of Ireland.

— Close alignment with the EU single market with shared institutions and obligations.

— Dynamic alignments on rights and protections so that the U.K. cannot undercut Brussels rules.

— Clear commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programs.

— Unambiguous agreements that cover the detail of future security arrangements, for example shared databases used to solve and prevent crime, plus the European Arrest Warrant.

If Labour were in a position of power, these points would constitute the Political Declaration. As they are not in power and as these points have not been subjected to negotiation and agreement with the EU, that's the best we can can currently get from Labour, a set of demands not set in stone. You simply can't set them alongside the Tory version by way of direct comparison as one is a wish list, easily modified, and the other is a negotiated agreement. But anyone who doesn't see them as a clear enough set of alternative aspirations expressed by the Opposition has me scratching my head. You don't have to agree with them but that's no reason to deny that they exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:27 AM

The notion that May's deal is a remain deal is totally crackpot.

I would put a 1 next to revoke and nothing alongside the others. I wouldn't state any kind of preference whatsoever for any outcome that is inevitably going to damage the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:31 AM

"If Labour were in a position of power, these points would constitute the Political Declaration."

...assuming that they had been negotiated with and agreed to by the EU, of course. Can't think they wouldn't have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:45 AM

For clarity, let me remind you all that when May gave her recent announcement on 2nd April , she said:

"However, if we cannot agree on a single unified approach, then we would instead agree a number of options for the Future Relationship that we could put to the House in a series of votes to determine which course to pursue."


It is this "number of options" that will be put to the house before 10th April we are discussing. So "the Labour deal" is probably essentially that put before the house already. There will probably be no further explicit negotiation of it with the EU before then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:48 AM

"If Jim wants to increase the scope of the question maybe he would like to ask his own, "
I have done from day one - why haven't people been given the right to confirm that they want to leave now the consequences of doing so have become clearer
Maybe you would like to answer it (any of the Brexiteers present, that is)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:40 AM

Labour chaps and chapesses can pay informal visits to the Brussels top brass to explain their take on things but they can't negotiate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 11:22 AM

Whoops!
Ireland DITCHES Britain as less than HALF of Irish firms register for no deal trade
LESS than half of the 84,000 Irish companies that trade with Britain have registered for a customs number to continue doing so after Brexit.

brexit
The Irish tax authority has warned business in the Republic could be cut off (Image: GETTY)

This revelation has triggered an intervention from the Irish tax authority which has warned business in the Republic could be cut off if Britain leaves the EU without a deal. Given close trading links to its nearest neighbour, Irish customs officials are braced for a 12-fold rise in the number of import and export declarations made by local companies if Britain leaves the European Union's customs union. With Britain at risk of crashing out of the EU as soon as next week, Ireland's Office of the Revenue Commissioners and government urged firms to apply for an Economic Operators Registration and Identification (EORI) number, which will be needed to continue to move goods to, from or through the UK. Irish Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe said on Twitter: “IMPORTANT: Businesses trading with UK will need an EORI customs number in a no deal Brexit.
Brexit: Varadkar warns no deal ‘particularly difficult’ for Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:12 PM

Jim, you need a complete reset. This man is not worth the snot from your nose. Recognise it and laugh him off. Let me be the second person in this thread to seriously question his sanity. Actually, I don't think it needs a question. Ignore everything he posts, let him rattle around on his own and make himself miserable. No-one here takes him seriously and he has no influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:26 AM

Thanks Steve
Beyond me why he is allowed to remain
Somebody Up there Likes Him (my favourite Paul Newman film)
Don't sink to his level - that gives hin an excuse to go on - he knows why he behaves why he does - part of his job description
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:36 AM

”This man is not worth the snot from your nose.”

That’s a nice turn of phrase. But, personally, I prefer “The steam off your piss”, though I do understand how that one may infringe Steve’s personal ‘no bad language’ red-line. Only slightly though! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

Incidentally - I've learned to regard each uncontrollable outburst of abuse as a 'touché' - (a racist one counts as two) a handy thing to keep in mind
Perhaps we might set up a scoreboard with pints for prizes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:58 AM

I'm fine with piss, shit, arse, tits, nuts, fanny and cock, if used wittily and appropriately, but I won't put my effin' and jeffin' in print, that's all (I'm good at it down the pub, mind). I'm not that prissy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

Light relief
An article in this morning's Times suggests that, if you buy a sandwich in Derry and eat it in Donegal you would be guilty of smuggling
It boggles to think that if you buy it and eat it in Derry then travel to Donegal and have a crap, you would become a 'sandwich mule'
You 'ave to larf, dont'cha ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:46 AM

You have to weep when you realise Brexit was destroyed by a majority of one in Parliament. A vote cast by a criminal wearing a tag, convicted of   perjury and perverting the course of justice.

THIS you could not make up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:57 AM

After nearly three years of the Tories making a complete pigs ear of brexit I find it hilarious that the brexitaliban are now trying to shift the blame to a single ex-Labour MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 08:08 AM

May asking for an extension till June - Tuske has d=suggested a year-long delay with the option for Britain to leave whenever they have a majority in parliament
To reprated the phrase borrowed from others because the borrower hasn't the imagination to come up with something of his own "you could not make this up"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM

sadly, brexit is going to happen - why are the exiters so cross? it is irritating that we are taking so long to sort out the details - but they could cheer up! 'what are we like, us daft old brits - it's been a right mix-up and no mistake but we got through it and we can have a good old laugh about it now'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 09:48 AM

"sadly, brexit is going to happen - why are the exiters so cross? "
Probably, but don't confuse annoyance for political ambition
Theer has been a power struggle going on for several years now
I'm not sure how funny a fargmented nation without a government and with a rapidly rising extremist right using those of d different ethnich origin as stepping stones to powe - ancally is
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 10:14 AM

Why should we be cross? We either leave (on less than ideal terms) or we contest the EU and subsequent UK elections and obtain a far stronger mandate for our full departure in the future.
A little early for crowing by remainiacs methinks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 10:22 AM

A belter of an editorial in the Independent.

Drunk on their warped sense of nationalism, now Brexiteers are fighting for no deal "just because"

One of the many gems - So twice a day he appears on television, is asked for a comment and growls: “A customs union would make all our chickens explode. I could take on Portugal on my own, because when I was in the territorial army I marched three miles round Dorking one Saturday. Denmark is more horrible than an ostrich in your toilet. The only single market I’d vote for is one that sold fruit and veg and every morning shoved a grapefruit up Jean-Claude Juncker’s arse and made him dance the polka.”

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 10:26 AM

Funny, for almost three years we've been told that a majority is a majority no matter how small and now the same person is bleating because they lost of a small majoity.

Good eh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 11:06 AM

Well Pete, you may be right, but this isn't over until its over. The fight goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM

The nitty gritty of Mays betrayal!
" Inside a customs union, “we would have to open up our markets to the third countries with which the EU had trade agreements, but the markets of such third countries would not be open to our exports since we would be outside the EU. And such third countries would have few incentives to sign trade agreements with us since their goods would already enjoy free access”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 12:43 PM

”The nitty gritty of Mays betrayal!
" Inside a customs union, “we would have to open up our markets to the third countries with which the EU had trade agreements, but the markets of such third countries would not be open to our exports since we would be outside the EU. And such third countries would have few incentives to sign trade agreements with us since their goods would already enjoy free access”.”

Source?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

Source? Try google! One of your cabal expects us to take all his warblings on trust. He has never provided a link in his life.

irritating isn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

An honest man - especially one who makes claims to have been ‘an officer and a gentleman’ - would be prepared to substantiate what he claims as facts.

No accreditation - more Right-Wing-Extremist nonsense, not even worth reading.

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:05 PM

"Source? Try google!"
He means he made it up - sorry - too inventive - Guido made it up and decided he woudn't get away with it
Seargant Majors always aspire to be "offices and gentlemen - too thick to be real officers so they end up with power and no real authority
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:14 PM

oh, I know which Right-Wing-Extremist he dug it up from, Jim. Meaningless Righty-Confirmation-Bias.

He’s an even better wriggler than ol’ Keefy was - never answers a question, just obfuscates. I wonder if he’s a closet Belly-Dancer?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM

Are you going to answer a direct question, Squaddie? Short memory, or bare-faced liar, or (more likely) both?

I expect it’ll just be more barrack-room bully-boy tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:01 PM

Good to see the Nero d'Avola at £5.50, Dave, after the price hike to £6.50. A little beauty it is. Nirvana.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:08 PM

”Say pretty please and I might give you some links, as you seem incapable of carrying out a simple internet search.”

Not incapable at all - I was working in IT programming on mainframes when you were still in the ACF - but I’m not wasting my time trawling through Right-Wing-Extremist garbage hunting for stuff that you’re too bone-idle, socially-inept, and plain, simple unprofessional to provide links to.

So you carry on belly-dancing, and I’ll have a good belly-laugh at a dozy, thick squaddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:58 PM

Top Cat.


Oops, did I interpret those initials wrong...? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 06:02 PM

The Cooper law is not yet agreed fully, but if it is I understand that obliges Teresa May to ask the EU for an extension.

I wonder what the consequence is if she decides not to? No penalty for breaking the law is defined, as far as I know. Being in contempt of Parliament had no effect. So what actually would be the consequence?

I was also trying to think of a precedent for a law that only applies to one person. There can't be many.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:58 PM

Calls from people to Iains to give a link are fine, if they provide links for their statements as well.

It appears Iains may be relying on the following from Economics help:
Disadvantages of a customs union
•A country can't negotiate separate deals because there is a common external tariff. This reduces economic and national sovereignty. Critics of the EU argue it has meant the UK has experienced higher food prices and reduced the welfare of low-income consumers who face higher prices.•It is worth noting – Deals can be struck if they respect the common external tariff. Turkey is in a partial EU customs union so is free to negotiate deals in other areas like agriculture where it is not bound by its customs union arrangement.

•A country cannot give preferential tariffs to a declining industry. For example, if UK steel industry was having difficulty the government might like to put tariffs on imports to protect domestic sales, however, in a customs union you can't choose to have this separate tariff.
•Trade diversion. A common external tariff can lead to trade diversion. For example, when UK joined EEC, it had to raise tariffs on imports from the Commonwealth. This means higher prices for imports of butter and lamb.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM

Those are alternatives Nigel, not definitive rules
Iains isn't "relying" on anything otherwise he would have humiliated everybody by putting something up (which is what he tries to do) by putting it up - he made the definitive up in desperation on the spur of the moment
What Iains wants is to feel someone takes him seriously - obviously a big void in is life

Brexit is a massive leap in the dark where there are no guarantees about anything and no plans on where to go from here - it was sold on Xenophobia and nothing else - it has even taken a special meeting between racist Nigel Farage and racist Trump to back a 'No-Deal Brexit' and the latter is so unstable that what he says today is quite likely meaningless tomorrow

Edwina Currie put it in a nutshell - 'We'll muddle through somehow - Britain always has' - no way to run a country in today's unstable world

Waving possibilities about is as meaningless as making them up when it comes to planning a country's future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM

Those are alternatives Nigel, not definitive rules
Iains isn't "relying" on anything otherwise he would have humiliated everybody by putting something up (which is what he tries to do) by putting it up - he made the definitive up in desperation on the spur of the moment
What Iains wants is to feel someone takes him seriously - obviously a big void in is life

Brexit is a massive leap in the dark where there are no guarantees about anything and no plans on where to go from here - it was sold on Xenophobia and nothing else - it has even taken a special meeting between racist Nigel Farage and racist Trump to back a 'No-Deal Brexit' and the latter is so unstable that what he says today is quite likely meaningless tomorrow

Edwina Currie put it in a nutshell - 'We'll muddle through somehow - Britain always has' - no way to run a country in today's unstable world

Waving possibilities about is as meaningless as making them up when it comes to planning a country's future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 02:50 AM

Maybe so, Nigel, but if so it is a very biased quotation.    I don't think I am alone in freely admitting there are disadvantages to a customs union, but that is not the point. There are also advantages (as that link also points out), and the key factor from an economics viewpoint is which is greater.

I said somewhere in these threads over a year ago - I can't be bothered to track it down - that as a purely economics question it is very reasonable for any country to continually assess all its trade deals and determine if they are to its benefit or not. If not, then it is sensible to seek to change them. So - again in purely economics terms - it is reasonable to examine whether the EU relationship is a good idea or not continually and act accordingly. But my assessment, and those of most economics apart from the Minford school, it that the arrangement is in the UK's favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM

Edwina Currie in a nushell might be tickle JohnMajors fancy but she doesnt do it for me

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 03:55 AM

”Is the backwardman boasting or complaining? Then again,who cares?

I find it rather sad you feel the need to boast in order to make a point.
I was using mini computers as a tool over 45 years ago. so what?”

Nope, no ‘boasting’ at all. Merely giving some background regarding my IT capabilities and experience as a response to your completely unsubstantiated accusation that I ’seem incapable of carrying out a simple internet search’.

You really do have extreme comprehension problems, and a serious social-skill deficit, don’t you?

If you haven’t the acquired the skill to post a working clickable link on the forum, you might like to take a little time out from insulting and abusing other members and study Joe Offer’s ‘Basic Mudcat HTML’ post in the ’Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer’s Guide’. It’s very simple - almost anyone could do it.

Now, back to that direct question you’ve carefully belly-danced around...I’m guessing that, as usual, you don’t have the cojones to answer, but that’s OK, I know the answer anyway, and it doesn’t show you in a good light.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM

DMcG, how does a country assess whether a trade deal is to its benefit? To often this debate is set by the views of domestic producers. However consumers need to be considered also. A trade deficit is not bad per se, it means that consumers are getting lots of nice things from the country they are imported from. Neither imports nor exports are bad, really the benefit of the trade is the total volume, not the difference between exports and imports. And the problem is that the people doing the assessing, allegedly on behalf of the country, are looking at only one side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:17 AM

There's also the matter of differing food-safety standards. In addition to chlorinated chicken issues, Trump has now appointed the pork industry as gatekeepers for... the pork industry. His reasoning is that if their meat is bad, they'll get sued, so it's in their best interest to keep their stuff clean. (Not a whisper about all those people who could die from eating it, or get seriously sick and not be able to afford medical care.) Good luck with that, if you start importing from some of your potential trading partners.

Oh, and nuclear plants get to self-regulate too. Welcome to your new buddy.

Please excuse lack of hyperlinks - I can't get the clickifier to work:

That [above] is the essence of the Trump administration's argument for getting rid of about 40 percent of federal pork inspectors. By next month, according to The Washington Post, the pork plants themselves will be in charge of "identifying and removing live diseased hogs when they arrive at the plants"—as opposed to the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service...

https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/news/pork-industry-to-begin-policing-its-own-food-safety-system/

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2019/04/trump-is-about-to-make-the-pork-industry-responsible-for-inspecting-itself/

https://newrepublic.com/article/153465/its-not-just-pork-trump-also-letting-nuclear-plants-regulate-safety

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:19 AM

I may well nip to mozzers myself later then Steve if it is down to £5.59 - £4.95 with my discount :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:30 AM

Iains isn't "relying" on anything otherwise he would have humiliated everybody by putting something up (which is what he tries to do) by putting it up - he made the definitive up in desperation on the spur of the moment
Do you think double posting your tortured abuse of the english language adds clarity? Think again!

"Take a customs union on its own first. A customs union would create far less friction to trade in goods. It would be easier to keep vital manufacturing supply chains intact and it would obviate the need for the customs part of the Irish backstop, as long as agriculture was included. But it would also mean that Britain could not operate an independent trade policy in respect of goods, because we would be obliged by the EU to operate its external tariff rather than vary our own in bilateral trade agreements with non-EU countries.
The biggest shortcoming of a customs union, however – and it is a major shortcoming – is that it does not in itself address the issue of regulatory alignment between the UK and the EU that single market membership gives us. This is the principal guarantee of the barrier-free trade we enjoy currently with the EU and why every alternative to membership will leave us worse off.
For this reason, many MPs are looking to a deeper agreement with the EU, one they call common market 2.0, which in addition to a customs union would mean continuing membership of the single market. The attraction is obvious: it would keep the UK close to its most important trading partner while fulfilling the mandate to leave the EU. It comes with a set of institutions based on the existing European Economic Area through which the UK could potentially influence (but not determine) EU policy and incur reduced UK payments for market access.
The disadvantages are equally clear. Britain would have to operate EU rules, without a vote or a veto, for both goods and services – becoming a rule taker – making it largely pointless to leave. Free movement of people would also continue. Yes, there is provision for an emergency brake on migration but this would not give Britain “control” of its borders."

A hotel California brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

There's also the matter of differing food-safety standards....

You are absolutely right, Bonnie, there is far more to it than a simple financial balance sheet. The regulations are important, the social rights and benefits of your citizens are important, the environmental aspects are important ... It goes on and on. That's why I said "purely economics" a couple of times. It is not that the rest of that does not matter, it is that even if you restrict yourself just to the economic argument the case to leave is feeble according to all but one relatively tiny segment of the economists.

Moving onto David Carter's point: again, I agree. Assessment of whether a trade agreement is to your benefit or not is horrendously complicated and also time dependent. You might carry out a vast and sophisticated assessment and come a conclusion then something like the OPEC oil agreements come along and change everything. Economics is not 'truth', it is more like a formal encoding of a decision process, which is only ever as good as your base assumptions.   But, to take a trivial example, suppose decide to enter into a 5 year trade agreement with one country to trade in a certain way, but then another country becomes a potential supplier who can provide the same thing cheaper but differing in some other way. You have to make an assessment to stay with your original supplier, switch or take a proportion from each. That is an unavoidable decision - even not thinking about implicitly decides to stay as you are - and businesses and countries have to do that all the time. Just being immensely difficult and risky due to uncertainties doesn't stop you having to do so, either explicitly or implicitly,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:54 AM

Source?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:56 AM

That was for the Belly-Dancer, by the way, not DMcG. And only a muppet would post a quote with no indication whatsoever that it’s a quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 04:59 AM

Magnificent quater-page headline on from page of the Daily Express - set our ocan farmers all of a-giggle
BREXIT BETRAYED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 05:32 AM

Anyhoo, Dave is absolutely correct - there’s no profit in engaging with an ITC-illiterate sociopath, so I’ll leave him to carry on with his usual abusive behaviour. I’m off to do something worthwhile. ‘Bye now...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 07:20 AM

Far better left alone. Kicking that kind of shit does nothing but leave a nasty smell and make a mess of your shoes.

Anyone for keeping to the point and commenting on this?

Tory minister says taking part in EU elections would be 'suicide note' for party

Not often I hope that a Tory is right but fingers crossed on this one :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

"I do not think any rational person would welcome that as an outcome."
As you say "Oh dear"
Talk about shutting the closet door after the skeleton has emerged with a petition in its hand
Too late - too late, the maiden cried
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 19 - 12:10 PM

"Anyhoo, Dave is absolutely correct - there’s no profit in engaging with an ITC-illiterate sociopath,
Me too - couldn't help pointing out that this "anti-Tommy Robinsonite" spent a fair tim in handing a petition around to try and get him out of nick, while gloating as the number of signatures rose
A classic "I wish I hadn't done that"
Fun over
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM

I was reading about a recent survey on a further referendum and it seems the majority are keen that 'we should be free to pursue our own trade deals.'

What a surprise. But let us phrase the same question differently. "we should be forced to   renegotiate all our own trade deals, whether or not they are poorer than the existing ones."

Somehow I don't think that would be as popular.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM

If the outcome of the first referendum is thwarted what is the point of a second?
   Do you not think a wrong answer will be denied again?

This is of course the EU way - reminiscent of "hotel California" -
keep resubmitting the question until the right answer is obtained


A little jog for the memory:
This has happened three times in EU referendums – in Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty in 1992-3, Ireland on the Nice Treaty in 2001-2, and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty in 2008-9 – with all of these referendums ultimately proving successful for those backing the treaty.

For the EU it is a war of attrition.

The mighty Rees Mogg has the right idea, ably backed by the inestimable Mr Farage

We shall fight them on the beaches........................!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM

It's reported this morning that May has offered Corbyn a 'Boris-proof' Brexit - a soft Brexit that cannot be overturned by future Governments
That should cause a bit of stir in the Tory Monkey-house
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:47 AM

a soft brexit means the uk leaves the EU but is in the equivalent of the EEC a fairly sensible compromise imo, we are not fighting the second world war, rees mogg is a hypocrite he avises his investors to invest in the euro yet talks about no deal , the man represents the interests of the very wealthy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:50 AM

Where have you seen that, Jim? Couldn't find it in any of my usual haunts, but they're not comprehensive. I'm interested to know more - all I can find is that her cabinet are furious with her for even talking (or going through the motions of talking) to Corbyn. Are there any links?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:52 AM

[Cross-posted with Dick]

Grease Smog also moved a few of his millions to Dublin. The word "hypocrite' doesn't even begin to be strong enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:53 AM

THE MIGHTY MOGG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:53 AM

A soft brexit is being subjected to the EU in all its glory with no more representation. Such an agreement would be the height of stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM

To paraphrase Dorothy Parker, who famously wrote of attempting suicide:

Razors pain you
Rivers are damp
Acids stain you
And drugs cause cramp

Guns aren't lawful
Nooses give
Gas smells awful
You might as well live


Brussels or London
You don't have a say
If you're going to be undone
You might as well stay

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 07:34 AM

That would go well with a Billie Holliday tune Bonnie
Might add, "Can't help loathing that Mogg of mine"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 08:12 AM

A shame peabrain cannot distinguish between a man's personal wealth and an investment company that invests in emerging markets. A tad too technical for him to comprehend(like so many other things)

The fine Mr Rees Mogg can hold his head up high unlike commie corbyn,
a chef extroidinaire!

https://order-order.com/2019/04/05/corbyns-evidence-shows-cooking-books-terrorist-wreath-laying-trip/

from Guido of course. The scourge of bubbleheaded leftards!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 08:24 AM

is this just all an elaborate and tedious wind-up, iain. if so , it's offensive nonsense

mods?.....please give us a break

---

Working on it. Most have been deleted; apologies if responses are still in place, the posts were taken out in one fell swoop, away from the thread. ---mudcat techie

---

And many non-abusive posts that are simply objectionable to some have been UNdeleted. -Mudcat ratheroffendedbyopinionatedmodding mod

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 08:56 AM

It really is time those who genuinely support Brexit started to enter into this debate rather than using it as a rabid-right soapbox
I've lost count of the number of times people have asked what the benefits of leaving Europe are as distinct from staying and trying to change what they disagree with - Britain has been little more than a silent and begrudging member of the EU since day one, based on the old Empire adage, "If we can't control it, it's no use to us"
Now the Government has Britain's future in the hands of scummy populists like Farage (and his queue of be-robed and be-turbaned foreign invaders)
Patriots like the Mudcat incumbents, stand by and cheer the worst elements of the British establishment claiming that to hold out for the best deal is 'treachery'
None of them has the gumption nor the imagination to put forward a rational argument - just abuse (as shown by the latest deeply thought out offering)
If Britain can sell planes to slaughter the Yemenis (while at the same time blocking any chance of giving the victims refuge) Corbyn's actions of supporting the Palestinians fight against ethnic cleansing put him in line for sainthood
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 09:10 AM

Dorothy Parker's ode always remind me of Chesterton's ballade about having second thoughts on suicide - which is equally apposite:

The gallows in my garden, people say,
Is new and neat and adequately tall;
I tie the noose on in a knowing way
As one that knots his necktie for a ball;
But just as all the neighbours–on the wall–
Are drawing a long breath to shout “Hurray!”
The strangest whim has seized me. . . . After all
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

To-morrow is the time I get my pay–
My uncle’s sword is hanging in the hall–
I see a little cloud all pink and grey–
Perhaps the rector’s mother will not call– I fancy that I heard from Mr. Gall
That mushrooms could be cooked another way–
I never read the works of Juvenal–
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

The world will have another washing-day;
The decadents decay; the pedants pall;
And H.G. Wells has found that children play,
And Bernard Shaw discovered that they squall,
Rationalists are growing rational–
And through thick woods one finds a stream astray
So secret that the very sky seems small–
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

ENVOI

Prince, I can hear the trumpet of Germinal,
The tumbrils toiling up the terrible way;
Even to-day your royal head may fall,
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

I'd have thought that those Brexiteers who complain, quite rightly, that all the deals that are available are worse than staying in the EU would welcome the opportunity to vote for that as a second best, if they can't get the No Deal they might prefer. In fact getting No Deal bput on such a ballot in a three option vote (with an alternative vote system of voting) would offer the way to get that preferred option, if that is really what people want. (And we know how keen they are about carrying out the will of the people...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 09:35 AM

McGrath of Harlow No One would argue with a second referendum had the first been implemented and a decent period of time elapsed. To ignore the first referendum negates the legitimacy of any subsequent one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 09:36 AM

!Que?!
And that's it from the Brexiteers
Tw letters short of a the description of the line of lorries from Fishguard to the Channel Tunnel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 10:23 AM

The Incredible Leadsom has apparently said this morning
=======
"It’s not nearly as grim as many would advocate," she said. "The civil service have done an amazing job of ensuring that we minimise the problems. I’m not an advocate for no deal, but it would not be nearly as bad as many like to think it would be."
=====

Of course, it is good news the civil service has worked hard on this, but they are not in the front line, are they?

Are all small international traders ready?
Have all port and other border protection staff be trained and, where necessary further staff recruited and trained?

Have vets been recruited and trained for all physiosanitary matters arising ?

In short, the civil service preparation is a drop in the ocean. What about all the rest?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM

I don't think anyone would doubt that if the vote in 2016 had been 52% for remain, the Brexit camp would have called for a second vote, and the Remain camp would be opposing it. That would be reasonable enough - when your side has won you'd rather not risk a rerun.

But what is hypocritical is to pretend that the reason for opposing a second vote was something to do with democratic principles, and to claim that refusing it shows that the UK is a truer democracy than Ireland, Denmark and Norway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 11:06 AM

I keep quoting, here and elsewhere, David Davis from 2012...

”A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy”

Whether the Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade accept it or not, that is the absolute, undeniable truth.

(Note for our computer-illiterate sociopath - that’s how to post a quotation).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 11:41 AM

One aspect of all this is that pretty strange everyone talks as the referendum results indicated that Labour voters in all the Brexit voting seats were overwhelmingly in favour of leaving.

That isn't actually at all clear - the Brexit vote in that referendum would have included the overwhelming majority of Conservative voters, together with a section of Labour voters - and many of those Labour voters could well have been more motivated by a desire to kick the Cameron government than by leaving the EU. The fact that in the election of 2017 most of those "Labour leave" constituencies returned Labour MPs suggests that this is the right way to interpret the referendum vote.

The thing to remember is that in the 2015 election not a single MP in the UK got as much as 50 per cent of their constituency electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 11:45 AM

”You can’t fix stupid”

A perfect analysis of this entire, farcical debacle of BrexShit. And not one example given in this thread of a tangible benefit to be gained by leaving the EU. Even the most bone-headed Mudcat Brexshiteer is beginning to call for revocation of A50, and for the UK to remain in the EU.

You couldn’t make it up!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/06/a-shambles-on-which-the-sun-never-sets-how-the-world-sees-brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 12:19 PM

UKIP counsellors now calling for 'ramainers' to be executed for treason.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 12:58 PM

Funny that some who seem to think that a second referendum is undemocratic keep quiet about May's multiple votes on the same topic. Doesn't surprise me of course, given the circumstances.

As it happens, I thoroughly disagree with referendums anyway. The first was brought about because pig-sticker Cameron didn't have the balls to stand up to the right wing. The second (well, third really) could well happen because May thinks more about keeping her party in power than doing the right thing and undoing this monumental cock up. Still, if nothing else, it is showing up the Tories and their supporters on here for the uncaring, selfish twats they really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 01:03 PM

”UKIP counsellors now calling for 'ramainers' to be executed for treason.”

BrexShit-Bumpkins have been doing that ever since the referendum. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been told by spittle-flecked Gammon Brexshiteers , with the veins in their necks bulging and eyes almost popping out of their sockets that, as anRemain voter, Im a ‘traitor’ who ‘should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason’.

If they had brains, they’d be dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

And THIS makes absolute sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 01:26 PM

"Oh Dear! The leftards are losing it."
Oh dear - the brain-deads are beginning to feel inferior again
I notice that the abuse to elected politicians which, I was told, was "Anglo-phobic" - has now moved on from its racist wallowing black mammals
You win some, you win some
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

Any good news about Brexit yet .................?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM

10/10 for consistency, Raggy, but I think we already know the answer:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM

"It is the abbacus this week, abbopotomus last week."

You've been told about this before, and the fact that you indulged in this appalling insult before, let alone think you can get away with doing it again, marks you out as easily the most disgusting and detestable presence on this forum. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. And don't think for one second that this will lead me into any kind of bantering with you. This is quite likely to be your swansong here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:11 PM

There seems to be a pretty widespread consensus in favour of just getting things sorted. But what doesn't seem to have got through to a lot of people is that any deal that got approved would just mean it all goes on like this for years and years as they keep "negotiating" the nuts and bolts. (The same would also undoubtedly be true with No Deal.)

The only way to be done with it all would be to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU.

The europhobes could console themselves by recognising how very annoying this would be to ordinary people all over Europe who've been watching this shambles in mounting horror and with escalating derision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:19 PM

Fingers, and everything else, crossed McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:25 PM

Dave, I have not, as yet, had a reasonable response to this question from any Brexiteers.

If they can believe in Unicorns then surely I can live in hope?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM

Steve
He's a racist twat who keeps lying by asking for proof
I once joked that he was a mental midget - first impressions are always the most trustworthy
If teh mods are happy to see this forum used as a hate site, there's little we can do about it other than to point out his uncontrollable racism
Tommy Robinson must have got his Iron Cross ready for presentation by now - leave him to parctice his arm-raising
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:41 PM

I thought this thread was supposed to be about BrexShit?

BrexShit was the brain-child of The Bullingdon-Buffoon Ça-Moron, a referendum conceived in the interests of nothing more than Conservative party unity and preventing UKIP taking votes away from them. The Tories have, until a week or so ago, taken complete ownership of BrexShit - indeed they refused to make it a cross-party project right back at the beginning when Jeremy Corbyn offered to involve Labour in the negotiations.

So why, I wonder, does the computer-illiterate sociopath insist on trying to make it a party-political issue by posting continuous anti-Labour propaganda and personal abuse - much of it racist, and possibly illegal under anti-racism laws - against individual members of the party?

The obvious answer is, of course, he’s got SFA else. And a sociopathic Troll. Best to ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:16 PM

re: this term 'leftard' now, i know i have mentioned this before and got nowhere - but it is really offensive. i work with disabled people who, over the years, have suffered many insults and derogatory and dismissive names. one of the worst is 'retard' Thankfully, it is a horrible term that we never hear in decent conversation anymore. clearly the term as used here is a mix of lefty and retard. i have asked before about people (well, iain) using the term but the mods seem quite happy with it.

please, could any mod come on here and justify tolerating such hateful language from a contributor with absolutely nothing positive to contribute.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM

and while i'm here does anyone have any financial expertise? as my dad died last year and we sold his house, i have some money for the first time in my life (about 30K) (obviously, he voted to leave and then died while his family all disagreed and voted positively) anyway, as it seems we are about to leave in some turmoil or at least be in some state for a while - what should i do with me money? we've thought of moving to estonia or glasgow or italy to be nearer family but we have some commitments here (or lack the courage) can i just buy euros and bank them abroad? (my default plan is to marry virgil van dyke (i must have a need for security) and get a dutch passport and live off his money but that could be difficult eh?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:35 PM

"wallowing black mammals"
Your descrioption - nobody else's
I've just requested that a friend on this forum complain about this behavior - I would extend that to all here - he has no intention of stopping his attempts to make this a hate platform
I have Irish friends who stopped posting to this site because of the anti-Irish racism emanating from a few posters
It was mild compared to this filth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:40 PM

You can get a Euro account with a UK bank, I have one with Barclays. I keep thinking I will move some cash from my sterling accounts to my Euro account, but then I think the exchange rate cannot get worse. Then of course it does. To think, if it hadn't been for Gordon Brown, we could have gone in at 1.6!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 02:56 PM

thanks, i think i will do that. but i'd better be quick as my local santander branch is about to close

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 03:08 PM

But about May, I am confused, slightly. Did she not herself vote Remain? And did not the guy in charge at the time run like a hare, leaving Brexit in her lap? And hasn't May, in contrast, been staunch in her efforts to do *what the voters said they wanted*? Why isn't anyone (seemingly) blaming those voters?
Oh, and I'm a Mrrican, not from UK or Europe myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 04:20 PM

May's priority throughout has been trying to find some way of holding the Conservative Party together. All the rest is just flannel.
......

It's not wholly fair to put all the blame for the referendum of 2016, and for it being designed in such a stupid way (eg, no requirement for a 5% majority) on David Cameron. The vote to hold it was backed by all political parties in Westminster apart from the SNP.

Of course he carries all the responsibility for breaking his repeated promise to stay on if Remain lost till a successor was found, and skkedaddled the next day. That's why we got saddled with a coronation for May.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 04:31 PM

you could say 'holding the conservative party together' and i'm sure that's true. you could also say scared of grubby little fascists like farage and yaxley - lennon and the lunatic fringe of her own party. very few in politics - including the labour party -has had the courage to stand up to these people. i know this is not easy since the death of jo cox, but it should have happened long ago. remember the opening ceremony of the london olympics? what happened to that positive picture of who we are?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 04:47 PM

Your Virgil idea was the best one, Pete. What a man. WHAT a man! But he loves his mum (honest), so you may have to get past her first...

30 grand could give you an awful lot of security. You can get a risk-free ISA with 20 grand of it with Coventry Building Society, fixed rate for five years, at 2.15%. And they are ethical. The other ten grand, maybe do up your place, get a better car and have a nice holiday or two.

Kevin, the reason Labour MPs (etc) voted in favour of a referendum, then in favour of Article 50, was that they would have been toast if they hadn't. There was a burgeoning wave of UKIP-led populism to contend with, so they yielded. Plus they had a severely mistaken inkling that it didn't matter in the first case because they were certain that remain would win.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 04:49 PM

well, i've been quite disciplined for long enough but now i think i just don't have to put up with this offensive shit.

mods? where are you? or is blatant racism and insulting disabled people ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 04:51 PM

Now 'scuse me, chaps, as I have to pen a letter to the mods about this bloke. I understand that they don't normally bother with Brit threads but I think they could consider bothering with this one. It would be good to think that I wasn't the only one doing it. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 05:23 PM

you aren't on your own, steve. however, are you suggesting that VvDyke's mam would not be proud to have a 63 year old jags fan in the family? i'm insulted. again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 05:37 PM

Bugger that, Pete. I've considered the same move meself and I'm 67! Can't make up my mind whether my numero uno hero is Beethoven...or Virgil...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 06:49 PM

ivor cutler? though he isn't a great marriage prospect....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 19 - 07:02 PM

All kinds of plausible reasons, Steve, as there are for most mistakes. But for all that, it turned out to be a bad misjudgement. Didn't do anything to stop UKIP. At the very least they could have made support for the referendum dependant on some sensible ground rules.

There was a petition that got a few million votes at the time, calling for a guarantee of a second vote to be triggered if the winning sides margin was less than 5% and the turnout less than 75%. It was started by a Leave supporter before the referendum (who expected to lose) but was signed by millions of Remainers as well as Leavers. That would have been a very sensible requirement.

And the example of the Scottish referendum should have been followed - that achieved a turnout of over 80%, with voting open to everyone of 16 up, including migrants from the EU - the people who stood to be most affected by the result in 2016, along with logterm British expats in Europe, who were also denied a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 02:45 AM

Britain poised for authoritarianism

While it is never a idea to take any survey too literally especially when looking at the exact percentages, this one does seem to raise a genuine concern. Parliament has certainly not covered itself in glory for a long time and, while you might pick out different things depending on which you side of the referendum you choose, there are plenty of things that are problematical. Trump, whatever your view of him, is not a eule-follower and there is no reason at all the UK could not end up with someone in power even less concerned with the rules. Brexit is certainly a mechanism that could be exploited to assist them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:22 AM

Many thanks to whoever cleaned up the mess. It must have been a dirty job and your efforts are much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM

Seconded. It would be good if we just didn't mention him at all and even better if we just ignore any new posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:33 AM

I will second that. The thread is supposed to be about brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:39 AM

Shhh, everybody...

I'm predicting that we won't leave the EU. I don't know why I think that...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

"I'm predicting that we won't leave the EU. I don't know why I think that..."
Hope springs eternal Steve
At the rate things are moving, I doubt if many of us will be around to see it happen - our legacy to our grandchildren, may their god help them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:51 AM

You could be right, Steve. I had the idea that the whole negotiation fiasco was a charade to ensure we stay in the EU without the Tories losing face. They are trying to figure out a way to blame someone else for their cock up. Up to now they seem to be failing on that front as well. We can but hope :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 04:58 AM

I have just watched a Royal Institution programme on mathematical errors (I know, I know) and, for a couple of examples (one on lei lines and one on people being photographed as a child with a future spouse in the background) it talked about something closely linked to confirmation bias. Anyway, the salient point applies to Brexit, even though it was not mentioned in the lecture:

You cannot demonstrate a no-deal is working by pointing to examples where is has worked (or, for example, how well prepared the civil service is). What you have to show is the paucity of examples where it has not worked (eg how few people who are not civil servants are unprepared.)

I thought it worth making that clarification at the start of this week where something or nothing might finally happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM

"ERG refusenik Mark Francois has written to Graham Brady, Chairman of the 1922 Committee, calling for an “informal ‘Indicative Vote'” on Theresa May’s leadership of the Conservative Party. The rules say that formal votes initiated by letters to the 1922 Committee chairman can only take place once a year…

The letter doesn’t hold back, beginning with “Enough is enough! If she goes by Wednesday we can Leave on Friday.” It ends with “she said ‘I will continue to serve fior as long as you wish me to’, it is now time to test that wish.”

What a fine fellow!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 10:18 AM

Daniel Finkelstein, the Conservative peer and Times columnist, made this comment on Politics Live Andrew Bridgen, but I am sure he believes it applies to all the Brexiteers in Parliament:


You have not got the votes in parliament. It is really hard dealing with this, because it seems to me so daft, to use a polite word for it. You can’t get no-deal through parliament because 400 MPs are against it. It doesn’t matter who the leader of the Conservative party is. This is not about Theresa May. And one of the reasons you failed to get rid of her last time you pointlessly made a vote of no confidence in her, that just resulted in strengthening her for a year, is that getting rid of her would make no difference. And it is failing to appreciate that that has meant that you have over-played your hand, over and over again, and are going to end up possibly with a second referendum on a soft Brexit, and possibly a Corbyn government thrown in. The tactical stupidity of this is breathtaking

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 10:50 AM

I never thought I’d draw pleasure from agreeing with a Tory Lord, but when Finkelstein told the obnoxious Bridgen the truth on PL today, I could have kissed him (almost...)!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 12:14 PM

Sorry, that shoulda bin ‘the smug, obnoxious Bridgen’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 01:24 PM

It really doesn't matter whether the ERG vote for the deal or not, even if Theresa manages to get another vote on it. The DUP is never going to accept it - they see it as damaging their link to Britain, and losing Brexit is no threat to them. Nor is the SNP, for markedly different reasons (they see it as damaging their hopes of getting out of the Union). Which means, without the backing of at least a bunch of Labour or Liberal MPs, it could never pass, even if every single Tory came on board.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

Even some hardline Tory journalists are changing their minds:

"I was a strong Brexiteer. Now we must swallow our pride and think again"

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-m

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM

In addition to finally admitting they need to find and prepare candidates to contest the EU elections, the government also seems to think Cooper's bill will get passed today:


The Commons Leader, Andrea Leadsom, has confirmed the government is expected to bring forward a motion to extend the Brexit process. Making a business statement to MPs, she has said:

In the event the European Union (Withdrawal) (No 5) Bill receives royal assent today, the House may be expected to approve a motion relating to section one of the Bill – to seek an extension of the period specified in Article 50 (3) of the Treaty on European Union.


(I - and I imagine thousands of others - got an email from Labour two days asking if I wanted to put my name forward as a MEP candidate. I think not.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 03:32 PM

It's passed the Lords. Graun live feed sez:

The Cooper Letwin Bill has been given an unopposed third reading in the Lords and now goes back to the Commons. The Leader of the Commons has said the government will not stand in its way and will schedule time for debate tomorrow if the Bill gets royal assent this evening. But Andrea Leadsom has denounced the Bill as a “huge dog’s dinner”.

Well, she WOULD, wouldn't she?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 05:03 PM

O course asking for an extension doesn't mean getting it. The only extension she could get is a long one - and there has to be something that could get things sorted, such as a public vote of some kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 07:52 PM

Well stick me in an Anderson shelter and call me shorty.
You are finally out of extensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 08:29 PM

(Sorry - having AWFUL hassles getting Mudcat to post stuff)

How can you possibly know that two days before the PM herself does? Europe doesn't want a SHORT extension, but have repeatedly indicated they'd be open to a flexible long one. That's been repeated in several of the E27 heads' Twitter feeds. Barnier was here (Ireland) today. He and Varadkar had this to say:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-varadkar-tells-may-of-openness-to-deadline-extension-1.3853160

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Apr 19 - 08:34 PM

And that's precisely what has had the ERGs throwing tantrums. Which have all been epic fails.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 03:06 AM

I'm guessing that Max has been doing some major work on Mudcat's innards - it's been like this here in The Backwoods for three weeks or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 06:25 AM

It seems 'Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the Commons, has just told ITV that it would be "fantastic" if the EU were willing to reopen negotiations on the controversial Northern Ireland backstop'


Yes, that the EU might reopen the Withdrawal agreement at this stage is indeed fantastical thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM

Amazingly, Peter Oborne, Mail columnist and arch-brexiteer, has changed his mind. There's a long piece by him on the opendemocracy.net website. It an enticing read by a man who now makes most of the points and more that remainers have always made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM

That’s the article that Bonnie linked to above I think, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM

Perhaps the Brexiteers-with-Brains are finally coming to their senses? Just a real shame it’s taken so long, and they’ve got us into this disastrous debacle that’s made the U.K. the laughing-stock of the world - even more than the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 01:26 PM

With talk of "perfidious Albion" as if it is something to be proud of, several threatening   disruption at the EU (again as if it was praiseworthy), and criticism of the queen for not blocking Copper's bill, there is still "room for improvement" as many a school report has said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 02:21 PM

Oborne piece is here:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-m

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 03:09 PM

In addition to all the negative forecast over the past three years the IMF today has predicted a 2 year recession for the UK should we crash out without a deal and also predicts 'long-lasting negative impacts' on both the UK and the EU.

I suspect that the EU will be able to cope with such impact far better than the UK.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian' it's under the main banner headline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 03:17 PM

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 03:41 PM

Thank you Monique.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 04:54 PM

PS I forgot to ask ............... any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM

Oops for the second time today, Bonnie! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mg
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 06:08 PM

I am totally confused and try to follow it. Just left england yesterday. Thought it would be discussed endlessly. Heard only a couple of people mention it. Rest radio silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 06:49 PM

A long exit is now considered to be possible. A long extension to our exit was never my first preference. However it will give leavers the chance to get rid of Mrs May, (who has failed in all her objectives) and elect a new leader. There is a chance that a new leader will actually believe in Brexit. If the Tory party cannot supply a leader who believes in Brexit it doesn't deserve to rule, and, probably, won't rule for maybe a decade or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 19 - 10:10 PM

”I am totally confused and try to follow it. Just left england yesterday. Thought it would be discussed endlessly. Heard only a couple of people mention it. Rest radio silence.”

Mary, I think much depends on where you were, who you were with, and what you were doing.

The main TV news channels, Sky News and BBC news, are wall-to-wall Brexit right now, but if you weren’t watching TV news during your visit you might not be aware of that. And, of course, the papers are Brexit-Bonkers, full of all the latest doings of our politicians re Brexit.

But, as you might have gathered from this and the other Mudcat Brexit threads, Brexit has had a very unpleasant polarising effect here, and there are high emotions and strong feelings either way, so people (certainly in the circles in move in) are loath to open discussions of Brexit with strangers, or even friends and family, for fear of encountering conflict.

As an example my wife and I, having worked for many years in a company with strong EU links and having friendships with European colleagues, are very pro-EU and strong Remainers, whereas her parents are rabid, anti-immigration Brexiteers. We all made our positions crystal-clear before the referendum and, in the interests of family harmony, the subject of Brexit has been taboo ever since - we simply never refer to Brexit in their company.

And amongst our wider circle of friends and colleagues, it’s understood that Brexit is an emotive subject so, rather than getting into heated discussions, raising blood-pressures, and risking relationships, we and they keep our views to ourselves - the nearest I’ve got to a Brexit discussion face-to-face has been a very tentative, “Are you a Leaver or Remainer” from someone I hadn’t seen for thirty years and met up with for a lunch date, and a response of. “Oh!” and a rapid change of subject when I said I was a Remainer.

So I’m not surprised about your perception that it’s generally ‘Radio Silence’ - my own experience is that, unless they are amongst a circle of like-minded friends, people prefer not to risk the possibly unpleasant repercussions of in-person Brexit-talk and, TBH, I think most of us are sick to the back teeth of the sheer stupidity of the entire debacle.

I wonder if others here have the same experiences?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 02:25 AM

My experience is fairly similar to that. By way of illustration, around a week ago my wife and I met up with an old friend of hers recently who we hadn't seen or spoken to for perhaps 30 years. For several hours the topic of Brexit did not arise and then eventually she raised it in the most neutral terms she could and we responded in the same way. None of us wanted to get into a battle on what was a social occasion.

Then there is the point I think 'peteaberdeen' raised - "none of this really matters." While most of us care deeply about our country and fellow citizens, I think most of us also recognise that what we say on an obscure little website or over the pub table has no measurable effect on anything. When a million march, or 6 million sign a petition, it is enough to be acknowledged in Parliament, but the chances of it actually leading to a change is still quite small, but can certainly change the tone. I doubt if 'revoke' would be getting the consideration it is without the petition, for example.


But in ordinary day to day life? No, the topic is barely raised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 02:50 AM

Similar remarks apply to Donuel's interpretation that none of this really matters. I agree with him that in 6000 years this won't matter much - if we are still around as a species, it will be of the same sort of relevance to everyday life as the battles between Hengist and Horsa. But the path we take to get 6000 years hence does matter, so what happens in the next 6, 60 and 600 years does affect people's lives greatly so it makes sense to care passionately about it. Not to the exclusion of all else that affects their lives, though. It would be a serious error to concentrate on Brexit so much that you ignored everything else. In fact, I care very little about Brexit, really. What I care about is how Brexit impacts all these other things - the environmental controls, people's rights, the ability to limit multinationals, solving problems by negotiations, not physical or trade wars, and so on. Abstract theories of sovereignty or whatever do not really matter to me. How are actual people's lives affected does.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:52 AM

Not in my worst nightmares did I think this would end up days away from a no-deal exit leading to food and medicine shortages, chaos in the ports, fears about the Union, and a catastrophic fall in our standing in the world. I don’t blame the people who voted Leave. I blame the charlatans who peddled the falsehoods that this would be easy and cost-free. And what does it say about our politics that those who led the lying are among the favourites to become the next prime minister?
Betty Boothroyd ex Tiller Girl, ex legislative assistant for an American Congressman, and ex Speaker of the House of Commons, 89 years old

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM

Best option is a long delay, followed by a political realignment, and then we quietly forget this daft idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 04:21 AM

i've always felt that it is the way that people and families are affected that should matter most. i don't really understand the finer details of trade deals, financial implications etc - far less the political squabbling involved in trying to extricate our country from whatever cul-de-sac into which we have so foolishly negotiated our selves.

from day 1 we could have said that EU workers are welcome here and worked hard to protect our rights to work abroad, but this has never been accepted by the political grotesques of the tory right. their money will protect them and they live and 'work' where they please. that a significant minority of our fellow citizens seem to support these buffoons is really sad. think about the opening ceremony of the london olympics and the picture that the UK showed to the world. that was only 7? years ago - the people who have dragged our country down and so far away from 'normal' or even sensible should be imprisoned - not queuing up for the top jobs in a barely functioning democracy.

sorry, i'm rambling now - when i should be off birdwatching on the solway coast and trying to forget about all this hideousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 04:21 AM

Just a reminder and a good balanced article

Brexit: pros and cons of leaving the EU

Does not tell us anything we do not already know but helps us to focus on the discussion. It is all about whether you believe one outweighs the other. I believe the pros of remaining far outweigh the cons. Other believe differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 06:56 AM

The only thing that worries me ("only"... ha!!! ...among the 9,348,932 other things that worry me) is: If Europe gives us the 31st December extension instead of the March 2020 one, there will be another potential cliff-edge-chaos scenario (right before the usual Christmas madness), because from the 12th, May's leadership can again be challenged from within. And her own party deserted her in droves during the last Parliamentary vote.

That means there's a real danger that one of the extremists could be selected as the prime minister - with less than three weeks to the end of what Europe has assured us is the Final Final Final deferral. At least the March 2020 option allows breathing space to thrash something out.

I hate May, but I truly believe that most (not all) of the available alternatives are far, far worse. And the ones that don't terrify me (forget about disgust, passed that post long ago) show no signs of wanting to pursue the PM's chair. So if the new date has to be December, I think it should be the 11th and not the 31st.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 08:23 AM

ice to see Farage making his way into The European Parliament with the intention of wrecking it
That appears to be the future tactic since they can't get their way by any other means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 08:46 AM

DtG, a whole lot in that article about immigration, but very little about the more important corollary, which is opportunities to emigrate. How did the nation which settled (ok, invaded and appropriated) much of North America and Australasia, become a bunch of stay-at-homes. Whereas the French, who historically did not settle even in their own colonies, have become much more open minded.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 08:48 AM

The EU will be glad to extend British anguish for a year. Its a warning to others. France however farts in your general direction and might suggest a Christmas deadline or nothing at all.
whatamess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:07 AM

> Nice to see Farage making his way into The European Parliament with the intention of wrecking it

He won't be able to do much (if he even gets elected): In a pre-emptive move, as a condition of the extension, Europe are taking away Britain's seat at the commissioner's table; and he's not a head of state. Fortunately, all the drama-queen hissy fits and temper tantrums are SO obvious and juvenile that everybody can see them coming a mile off and prepare evasive action.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:09 AM

”whatamess.”

Indeed it is, Don. More importantly, it’s a perfect example of what happens when a group of politicians get together and put party and personal wealth (their own, and that of their wealthiest supporters) before the good of the country and its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM

"He won't be able to do much (if he even gets elected):"
It was stated by another Brexiteer last night that they intended to unite with other right wing European anti EU Groups to use the populism that gave us Brexit to undermine the Union - I'm afraid they can do a great deal of damage
You might have read in this morning's paper that ex Sinn Feinn TD is entering the election on an anti-immigration ticket - he has been disowned by his ex-party
Peter Casey leapt from nowhere to take a large slice of the Presidential vote, using anti-traveller bigotry
It looks as though the Israeli election has been won using populist Islamophobia
Populism foisted Trump on the world
It would be very foolish to forget who these people are and what they are doing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM

No way I'm forgetting, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:45 AM

Those various factors uniting - aided by social media and engineered Outrage - is one reason why the hiatus between December 12th and 31st has me so worried. (Assuming May is still there by then. But she clings on like a June bug, and I don't believe a word she says. That's what you get when you cry Wolf too often.)

There is, as you say, true danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 09:55 AM

The main point is, David (C), that we are, or should be, discussing whether the benefits of the EU outweigh the disadvantages. I believe they do and am firmly in the remain camp. But other people have the opposing viewpoint. Up to now, however, no one on here has been able to articulate why they feel that leaving would be better other than by producing vague claims about sovereignty and repeating the lies told during the leave campaign.

BTW - I clicked this thread instead of the 'Black Hole' thread inadvertently. I think it was probably Freudian... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 19 - 03:39 PM

Newsflash - Scientists have released the first-ever photograph of Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM

To me the main benefit of EU membership is Freedom of Movement and the opportunities that this gives to our young people. Other major benefits such as Erasmus, Horizon2020, depend to some extent upon our underpinning right of Freedom of Movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM

I’d add to that, the hugely simplified system for the intra-community movement of goods and services. My entire working life was spent in companies which traded internationally, and trading (both directions) with EU Member-States was infinitely easier and cheaper than with non-EU countries. And the consolidated banking system provided a considerably simpler and safer system for payments between traders in Member-States.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Quite a lot of criticism of the BBC, especially John Humphries, in giving David Davis an easy ride while showing no ability to recognise the reality that it is not up to the UK to say what can be done, but it needs a joint agreement where the UK is the supplicant:


The former Brexit secretary, David Davis, has called for the withdrawal agreement to be renegotiated and for technical solutions to the Irish border issue to be revisited under a managed no deal.
To the incredulity of MPs and commentators Davis insisted that the Malthouse compromise still offered the best solution to the Brexit deadlock.

...

Reaction to the interview has been scathing:

===
David Lammy

David Davis stuck on a loop on #r4today.

Once again spouting the same nonsense about reopening May's deal and claiming every expert is wrong about No Deal being an economic catastrophe.

Brexiteers have run out of ideas and their lies have been exposed. Let's #PutItToThePeople

1,456
8:30 AM - Apr 11, 2019
Twitter
===
Ben Bradshaw

Oh God! On such an important morning @BBCr4today thinks the answer is to get the clueless David Davis on for its main interview to witter on about the dead as a dodo “Brady compromise”. #BrexitShambles #FinalSay #PeoplesVote
====
Angus B MacNeil MP

John Humphreys allowing David Davis to make all sorts of sweeping assertions on the EU in a cosy fireside chat on #r4today ..
Just allowing misinformation
...reality is UK controls own migration and most "migrants" come from outwith EU

37
8:25 AM - Apr 11, 2019
===
MichaelWhite

Listening to Brexit Bulldog, David Davis, on @r4Today is to be reminded just how hopeless Team Brexit has been in putting together and sustaining a coherent position for more than 2o minutes: cheerfully casual, as usual

33
8:37 AM - Apr 11, 2019

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM

Given the latest extension, perhaps Nigel wants to say whether he has changed his mind on his prediction that we will leave on WTO rules? And, perhaps, attach a date to the prediction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:38 AM

I don't know what world Davis is living in, but it sure isn't the real one. To quote one comment in the Guardian:

"Maybe the BBC, by interviewing David Davis, are trying to show that's it's possible to be really very, very stupid and still hold a senior post in government.
Equal opportunities and all that."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

BWM - Love the photo of brexit piece :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:59 AM

DMcG I didn't catch the interview but I disagree with your suggestion that the UK is a supplicant. The UK is the bearer of many billions of currency units. Billions of currency units that the EU desperately wants. The EU is the supplicant and Thereasa May's big failure is to not use this to her advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

Posted by a Facebook friend

I wrote this post just before the referendum in June 2016, just before the referendum. It went sort-of viral, with over 5,000 shares and lots of 'likes'. I said I would re-post after a decent interval. I got some things wrong; for instance, I missed the Irish border question completely. For information really.
Brexit research 17th June 2016
I've been fairly quiet on the Brexit question for a few days. That's because I've been putting in some serious time running down the facts behind the hateful rhetoric that is being spewed by both sides (although principally by the 'leave' campaign). Those of you who know me well will know that I'm something of a data freak. I like facts, not opinion, especially verifiable, reliable facts. I've tried to look for credible sources, including official data from here and overseas, articles and books by established experts, independent research and properly audited and/or peer reviewed economic data. Posting all the data would take too long; even a list of references would mean that no-one would read this post, since the attention span of a butterfly seems standard these days. Instead, here are my conclusions.
1. The leave campaign exists primarily to serve the political ambitions of a small group of far-right politicians. Leaving Europe will, in their view, overturn our already far-right government and allow them to seize power, shifting the country towards a one-party state. This conclusion is based on the lack of evidence for any economic, social or national security benefit from leaving the EU.
2. The NHS will cease to exist in a very short space of time; all of the likely wielders of power in a post-Brexit country (Gove, Johnson, Duncan-Smith, Farage, Fox et al) are on record (repeatedly) as being strongly in favour of dismantling the NHS, selling it to private companies (many of which they have a financial interest in) and moving to a grossly inefficient and unfair insurance based model like the discredited pre-Obamacare US model.
3. If we leave the EU our economy is likely to go swiftly into recession, as there are no plans to replace our trade deals with the EU; just vague hopes that the EU will be nice to us. That's highly unlikely; if we leave, and it appears that we are doing well, the EU itself may break up completely. The big players are not going to let that happen. It's far more likely that they will make it as hard as possible, so they can say to any wavering nations 'see, look how awful it is if you leave'. Expect punitive and harsh trade barriers from day one. (If you want evidence of this, it's worth looking at what French and German politicians are saying). The Americans will not treat trade deals with the UK as a priority, as stated by President Obama and both the current candidates for the Presidency.We already trade with India and China, and there is no good reason why this trade would suddenly increase. In any case, most of the trade is imports.
4. Our economy is heavily dependent on the financial services sector. One of the main reasons for the growth and success of the City of London as a financial centre is the close links with other European centres like Paris and Frankfurt. Major players (including most of the big banks, insurance companies and hedge funds) are looking at shifting their operations elsewhere if the UK leaves the EU.
5. There will be little or no change in the rate of immigration. Free movement of EU nationals will stop, but this is a small part of immigration as a whole. There will be no effect on refugees from Syria, Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, other than to shift our border from Calais (under an agreement with France) to Dover. This is likely to make it much easier for refugees to get here, and will probably swamp our already inadequate immigration appeals system. Why immigration is an issue is puzzling. All the credible and current research says that immigrants are net contributors to the economy (around £20 billion since 2006), are less likely than UK born people to use public services like the NHS and schools, are much less likely to claim benefits, commit crimes at a lower rate than UK citizens, do not take jobs away from UK citizens (there is strong evidence that they actually create jobs by starting and running businesses) and do not drive down wages (Wages are linked to government fiscal and economic policy, not immigration rates).
6. We will be governed by institutions that are less democratic than those in the EU. Our parliament currently has over 800 unelected lawmakers, and a cabinet that can include people who have never stood for election in their lives. The EU parliament is an entirely elected body, and is the only EU body that can pass and ratify legislation.
7. The so-called 'third sector' in this country (including most charities, housing associations and voluntary organisations) are heavily dependent on funding from EU sources such as regional development grants. The people who actually write the bids for such funding, and those who run such organisations, are speaking with pretty much the same voice. The current austerity measures have slashed their budgets to the bone, and EU funding is in many cases the only thing that is keeping them afloat. This will disappear, and the leave campaign has no plans at all for how this will be replaced. The most likely scenario (according to those who actually work in this sector) is that many organisations will simply disappear, and their services with them. It should be noted that Cameron's 'big society' idea meant that many services that were fully funded by the government now reside in the the third sector, following swingeing cuts in public services. The third sector is now doing stuff that is essential for the well being of many people, including children, old people, disabled people and the mentally and physically ill.
8. We currently have excellent security processes in place in conjunction with other EU governments. Most of these are not bilateral agreements between governments; they exist within frameworks and treaties negotiated through the EU itself. Upon exit, these fall, and will need to be replaced. There is no clear idea how this will be done from the leave campaign. The best we can hope for is a long interval with no such agreements until something can be cobbled together. The risk of terrorism and organised crime during this period is likely to increase, according to senior police officers in this country and elsewhere.
9. Scotland is likely to vote in favour of remaining in the EU, as there are clear benefits for doing so in terms of the economic support they receive. If that is the case, then there is a wholly legitimate reason for a second independence referendum, and the likelihood is that this time it will be won.
10. Universities benefit from EU funding, especially for research. This will disappear, and there are no plans for how this will be replaced.

I've fact checked all this as far as I can, including some fairly remote (but credible) sources. I've spoken directly to people involved, and to researchers and others who have expressed views. The overwhelming conclusion is that there is no good reason for leaving, other than ignorance, gullibility and bigotry, fanned by a right wing press drunk on the idea that they have the power to bring down governments. They have formed an unholy alliance of the far-right, the racists, the power hungry politicians either too extreme or incompetent to gain power by legitimate means, the ill-informed, the misinformed and those too idle to become informed. We are sleepwalking into a right-wing coup that will change our country forever. I'm appealing to those of my friends who are even contemplating a 'leave' vote, and to those who are not intending to vote. This is a last chance, and failing to preserve much of what makes us a country will be on your heads. Please think again. If anyone wants to de-friend me after this, I would understand, but I hope that the hard work I've put into this will make some people change their mind

A perfect summary as to what is happening. Well predicted, Tim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 05:37 AM

"The EU is the supplicant and Thereasa May's big failure is to not use this to her advantage."

This is just more little-Englandism. Now let's suppose that May can somehow concoct a threat to the EU that they won't get our money. Blackmail, sort of thing. Exactly how do you think that would help in future trade negotiations? I'll tell you what: the little offshore island of 66 million would suffer a damn sight more than the bloc of over 400 million that has Germany as its engine room. Something like half our trade is with the EU, not to speak of the heavy involvement of the services sector. You want to compromise all that by doing a Rees-Mogg and playing all awkward. You're living in the 19th century, mate. Britannia don't rule no waves any more. Hubris goeth before a fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM

The brilliant John Crace hits the nail on the head once again! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: This is just more little-Englandism.

So why did the EU refuse to discuss anything until Mrs May agreed to cough up the cash?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:02 AM

So why did the EU refuse to discuss anything until Mrs May agreed to cough up the cash?

Not sure what you mean here, Stanron. By 'cough up the cash' do you mean pay the money that was rightly due to the EU in long term commitments or something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:05 AM

According to COllins dictionary:


A supplicant is a person who prays to God or respectfully asks an important person to help them or to give them something that they want very much.


Whether money is offered as part of that plea has no bearing on the relationship. I agree with DtG that the money is already owed, but even if it was not, its presence merely showed the intensity of the plea.

It is odd that Brexiteers often state their there motivations are due by principles other than money - such as sovereignty - but somehow assume the EU is only interested in the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:07 AM

...that their motivations ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 08:37 AM

Nothing to do with all this, but don't want to open another thread yet
Did Pat mishear a news report or has Assad been arrested ?
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:25 AM

Sorry to be the brearer of bad news, but the report suggests the Army has arrested Assad
I'f it's true you've lost ANOTHER ROLE MODEL
Fingers crossed eh !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

DMcG wrote: Date: 11 Apr 19 - 04:24 AM

Quite a lot of criticism of the BBC, especially John Humphries, in giving David Davis an easy ride while showing no ability to recognise the reality that it is not up to the UK to say what can be done, but it needs a joint agreement where the UK is the supplicant:

Your use first I think, and it does not change the fact that the EU would not discuss anything before the money. That was not a 'Little Englander' ploy. It was an EU ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir. He has been arrested

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:51 AM

it does not change the fact that the EU would not discuss anything before the money

I don't blame them! The UK owes the EU billions. If someone owed me that much money I would not begin negotiations unless they agreed to pay what was due either!

Here is a simple explanation of why the UK should pay this money.

Everything you need to know about the Brexit “divorce bill”

That we would not have to pay anything was yet another lie by the leave campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

"Maybe you're thinking of Sudan's Omar al-Bashir"
That makes sense Jon - pity
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 10:53 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

...the UK has
got through 3 Brexit ministers
changed UK passports to blue
spent £66 billion on failed Brexit
given MPs two payrises

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 11:24 AM

I'm sure there are other things but I must admit liking this little synopsis

Since Brexit negotiations began...

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
banned hidden charges for paying online
given free rail travel to teenagers
funded thousands in medical research
protected workers' mobility rights
adopted the Anti Tax Avoidance Directive
improved food standards
reached trade deals with Japan, Singapore, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia and New Zealand

I'm not sure where that was copied from, or whether it was made up on the spot. I've just checked a couple of the points for accuracy:

...the EU has
ended roaming charges
This should be 'limited roaming charges to the roaming charges you pay in your home nation, with limitations' Here There can still be additional charges if you use the internet above a certain level.


...the EU has
given free rail travel to teenagers
This should be 'given 30 days free rail travel to 18 year olds' details: Here

Usual remain tactics of make enough statements and hope the gullible will take them all at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 12:12 PM

The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out before his post was deleted for god-know-what-reason (except maybe his simple presence in a thread provokes people who are not in enough control of themselves to not be provoked, and go down that off-topic rabbit hole pulling the whole thread in with them, but what do I know?)

As for Brexit, I wonder if that will be delayed until forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:07 PM

From Today's Irish Times (apologies to S.T.C.)
Jim Carroll


The Rime of the Ancient Brexiter
(Scene: The entrance to a polling booth, somewhere in England, in the distant future. A trio of Eurosceptic voters is interrupted by a bearded old man, who looks like a strange mixture of Michael Gove, Nigel Farage, and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
He grabs one of them by the hand.)

It is an ancient Brexiter
And he stoppeth one of three
“By thy long gray beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp’st thou me?”

He holds him with his skinny hand,
“There was a bus,” quoth he.
“Hold off! Unhand me, greybeard loon!”
Eftsoons his hand dropped he.

“The bus was cheered, the Bo’sun* steered,
From Finchley to Furness
Three-fifty millions we would save:
‘Let’s fund the NHS’.” (*old nautical abbreviation for “Boris Johnson”)

The Sun came up upon the left
The Mail came up the right
And though the vote was sorely cleft
We won, and danced all night

The bus it powered on, pell-mell
On hardest Brexit bent
We’d triumphed, so we sent to hell
The forty-eight per cent

But now another ’lection came
Twas early (Missus) May
And yet we froze in icy wastes
And somehow lost our way

The ice was here, the ice was there
The ice was all around
The Bo’sun said if May were gone
We’d once-more forward bound

“God save thee, ancient Brexiter
What memory haunts thee thus?”
“I backed the Bo’sun’s plan at first,
Then pulled a double-cross!”

Yet still the sunlit uplands loomed
And soon the ice did crack
We passed the Irish Border line
With two words: “stop” and “back”

And now a great bird hove in view
As if sent by the gods
Its wing-span covered ten MPs
Its name was Nigel Dodds

The back-stop was a hellish thing,
It warned - and would work woe.
If Dodds would fly behind our ship
The back-stop had to go.

And so we tried to ditch that stop
To th’ task we downward hunkered
But our enemies did anchor drop
Till we were Jean-Claude Junckered

Then the wind - alas! – it droppeth too
How to move we had no notion
Ours a tainted ship of state
Upon a tainted ocean

Day after day, day after day
No mast or top-sail flew
And all the while to Captain May
We were a ghastly crew

Yet flew we still the Brexit flag
For something drove us on
Till another spectre made us sag
Its name was Bercow, John

“Order! Order!” everywhere
It said, as hearts did sink
“Order! Order!” everywhere
It drove us all to drink

We tabled motions by the hour
The votes were chock-a-block
“Aye-aye”, “nay-nay”, and so it went
“The ayes have it - unlock!”

But still no sign of breakthrough came
The crew remained at odds
Until despairing - and for shame!
I shafted Nigel Dodds!

The old man gazed with countenance sad
His eyes nine fathom deep
It looked as if a conscience (bad)
Had long disturbed his sleep

But now he grabbed the hand again
And bade once more be heard
He’d leave the Eurosceptic
With this, one final word:

“He playeth best, who loveth best
All creatures great and small
Yea - even the forty-eight per cent
God loveth them and all.”

The Brexiter, whose eye is bright
Whose beard is aged with hoar,
Is gone, and leaves the voter
Shook at poll-booth door

He went in like one that hath been stunned
His face was creased with pain
A sadder and a wiser man
He voted to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

You certainly don't seem to know of a really effective way of keeping this website decent and clean, Jeri. I for one am exceptionally grateful that his gratuitous and routine nastiness, which you never criticised or acted against, is no longer accepted here. "Simple presence" my fat bottom. Or perhaps you agreed with his detestable opinions and his attack modus operandi...

Nigel, well done for your best nitpick ever. Everyone and his dog knows that the term "roaming charges" refers to the EXTRA charges you used to incur for using your data outside your own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

It seems the provoked is the guilty pary in the eyes of some (noticeably the racist provocation features nowhere on some people's Richter scale
Little wonder we have no Muslim and few Irish contributors here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:35 PM

Words like ‘Birds’ and ‘Feather’ spring to mind. {{{heartfelt sigh}}}

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 01:43 PM

Steve beat me to it. I could also add that a cut and paste of the complete post seems rather superfluous when a simple reference will do, but I won't because I am no nitpicker :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

"The guy who was arrested was Assange, which Iains pointed out "
Actually, the guy I wa referring to was President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan
Iaian's tripped over himself denying it was his friend Bashar Hafez al-Assad who had been arrested - he likes to defend those he supports, no matter what it takes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Guys, the mods are working to prevent the Resident Right-Wing Extremist from wrecking the thread any more than he's already done. Let's not let his cronies and supporters take over where he was forced to leave off, eh?

Ignore the Agents Provocateurs, please!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM

Bob, you don't actually know, but it's good to have something to fight about, isn't it? This is the mindset here now. Forget the subject and go after people because it's fun, and it makes your ego happy.

What's the subject again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:04 PM

Brexit, Jeri. Which is what I wanted this thread to be all about. And it's my thread, if ownership of threads is allowed. And the chap you are affecting to scratch your head about had an agenda that was anything but. Good work on your friend bobad, but you might like to reflect your earlier post. And, before you say it, I know I've been no saint. But I'm trying, whether you see it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 19 - 07:05 PM

Reflect on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 04:50 AM

That is the best advice, BWM. As I said earlier, kicking shit only gets your shoes dirty and creates a nasty smell. Just step over it!

Dealing With Flamers and Trolls

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 06:44 AM

Isn't this thread about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:16 AM

It is, Kevin, but when posters get either too silly or abusive it does warrant bringing up the subject of how to deal with them. As to stopping other bits of thread drift, well, you might as well try to push butter up a hedgehog's arse with a hot needle!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:26 AM

Well, I have had other things on my mind for a few days, so Brexit has not been on my agenda much. And with the MPs off on their hols I don't think there will be too much news for a little while. But I think there is a good chance of the time for the extension being wasted, because of attention on the local elections, EU elections and then several sets of holiday. So I could see us losing focus until early September

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

I think you’re probably right, DMcG. Plus the Tories are still at each other’s throats about their own leader, and they’re still making noises about a change. I wouldn’t be surprised if that becomes their main focus over the next few months, in which case look out for plenty of Diversion-Tactics - “Jeremy Corbyn - Anti-Semite/Terrorists’ Friend/Enemy of the State/Ally of the Russians/Allotment Association Show Cheat/yadda yadda”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM

I am surprised that the EU has allowed any extension to the date of the UK leaving.

Having had the best part of three years, with all the 'deadlines' that that has included, why on earth would they consider another six months will make a difference.

Time for another referendum in my opinion, give all the new voters (some 2 million of them) the opportunity to voice their say.

They will be the ones who are most impacted by any future changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 05:26 PM

Daily Express poll.
Voting intent for EU elections:
Results of the poll:

    Brexit Party: 15,797 or 82 percent
    UKIP: 976 or six percent
    Change UK: 635 or four percent
    Labour Party: 600 or four percent
    Liberal Democrats: 380 or one percent
    Conservative Party: 361 or one percent
    Other: 237 or one percent
    Green Party: 209 or one percent
    SNP: 178 or less than one percent
    Plaid Cymru: 33 or less than one percent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM

I'd hoped that might have made the extension dependant upon a referendum or a general election. I can't see how May could have refused that. Maybe when she's back on Halloween. With nothing to show for the six months, they'll do that then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 19 - 08:05 PM

There's barely enough time for another referendum even if May gets her skates on, which she won't. The probable outcome is another extension. Which would mean no brexit. Bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

A distinct possibility.

May: Give us another extension
EU: Piss off. Either leave or stay but stop buggering about
May: See, we tried our best to leave with a good deal but that nasty EU would not let us. Not my fault.

We can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:25 PM

‘I’ve said it before on various Brexit threads, but I’ve thought right from the start that it is the intention of The Praying Mantis to obfuscate and prevaricate until the UK is unable to leave the EU at all, but she will leave herself in a position where she can shrug her bony, hunched shoulders and say, “Not my fault, guv - it was them lot over there wot dun it!”.

I’ve seen nothing in recent months to change my view, she’s already managed to get the possibility of a No-Deal Brexit kicked into touch by Parliament, all that remains now is to run the extension down until an agreement becomes an impossibility.

And I wish her every success.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM

Unfortunately, while Parliament has said there shouldn't be a No Deal, that remains the default outcome if we come to a deadline with no agreement to a deal and no extension. Unless of course Parliament compels Article 50 to be revoked - which we can't depend on it doing.

A public vote, either a referendum or a General Election, seems the only way out. Even if Labour were to sign up to a deal with May, there is no reason to think it would be any more likely to be approved by the Commons. More Labour MPs might vote for it, but fewer Tories would.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 12:55 PM

Perhaps, but it could be an awful lot rides on this EU election. Pick a bunch of Greens, LibDems and co who are pro-EU, and Macron could see them as bulwarks against Le Penn and similar groups. Elect an unholy alliance of Farages and Rees-Mogg supporters out to obstruct the EU in every way, and we might see any appetite for a further extension severely curtailed.

I was reading a couple of interesting articles today about Heath and Wilson bringing into the (predecessors of) the EU. In "The Lady" magazine as it happens...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 01:03 PM

You could very well be right Kevin. Personally, although I object to referendums on principle, I’d go for it if it was the only way out. I’m not at all certain, though, that the result of the first referendum would be reversed - Leavers’ attitudes seem to have hardened and I don’t believe many would be won over to the Remain side.

From my perspective, absolutely the last thing I want is a GE. I think the Conservative Smear-Machine would go into overdrive in an attempt to finally and completely destroy JC’s reputation, and therefore wreck the chances of a Labour government being voted in. And, to be honest, I really wouldn’t want Labour to inherit the Tories’ mess - they started it, let them finish it. With any luck it will destroy them and see them out of office for years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 01:16 PM

It's vital that Labour doesn't become seen to be facilitating brexit. The overwhelming majority of Labour voters, and an even bigger majority of party members, voted remain. Talking to the Tories is one thing (sheesh). But any agreement reached must be predicated on ratification by a public vote. And I'm saying that as a long-time opponent of referendums...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 02:16 PM

The overwhelming majority of Labour voters, and an even bigger majority of party members, voted remain.

There is no data to support the above assertion because party affiliation was not recorded in the referendum and MEP constituencies do not coincide with Parliamentary ones.

70% of Conservative constituencies and 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave in the EU referendum.
Conclusion

These figures are roughly correct, although we don’t know for sure how many parliamentary seats voted – all we have are estimates.

    "7 out of 10 Conservative MPs... represent constituencies that voted to leave, as did mine. 6 out of 10 of Labour represent Leave constituencies."

    Claire Perry MP, 12 July 2018

The results of the EU referendum weren’t counted by parliamentary constituency, so we don’t know for sure how constituencies voted. A small number of councils did release official breakdowns by parliamentary seat, and data on some other areas was obtained by the BBC via Freedom of Information requests.

The best figures we have for other constituencies comes from Professor Chris Hanretty, a political scientist at Royal Holloway University, who combined official results and the BBC data with statistical methods in order to estimate the proportion of Leave and Remain voters in every seat in England, Scotland and Wales.

These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.Bar chart showing the numbers of seats held by British parties that voted Leave or Remain

These estimates are most likely the ones being referred to when politicians discuss how constituencies voted. But other than the seats where the actual result is known for sure (only 20% of constituencies) they are just estimates.

As Professor Hanretty wrote when he released his work, “I’d like you to say ‘probably’ before you talk about how a constituency voted, unless I’ve flagged up a result as being known exactly.” The margin of error for the estimates is not known, due to the nature of the statistical methods used.

This means that for constituencies in which the exact results are unknown, and which the estimates suggest the result of the referendum vote was close, we can’t be certain about saying whether the constituency voted Leave or Remain.

Looking just at seats held by the Conservatives and Labour, if we highlight seats where the estimated referendum vote was within the 47% to 53% range and the actual result isn’t known, we can see that there are a large number of seats where the referendum vote is still uncertain.Scatter plot showing estimated Leave and Remain votes in Conservative and Labour parliamentary constituenciesWhen you factor in this uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain.

Of course this will not fit with the shouties agenda so no doubt it will be censored by deletion like most of my other recent posts.

Is this what mudcat now represents- a bastion of the extreme left?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 03:04 PM

The fact that a Labour held seat voted Leave does not imply that most Labour voters in that constituency voted Leave in the referendum. That Leave vote was made of people who had voted for the whole range of parties.

There have been a number of researchers who have found that it appears that most people who had voted Labour in 2015 voted to Remain in the referendum, whereas most Tory voters went for Leave.
Here is a site that includes a breakdown of how the refrendum vote was made up.

For 2015 Labour voters it's given as 63% Remain, for Tories it's only 42%. And many of those Remain voters were probably at least as much influenced by a wish to hit out at the Cameron government as by the actual issue of Brexit.   When it came to the 2017 election they voted Labour again.

That's not to deny that there were many Labour voters who went for Remain - but the assumption that all the Labour leave-voting constituencies are full of people ready to turn there back on the hope of a Labour government at any sign of readiness to allow people to have a second chance to decide their future is very questionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 04:44 PM

The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. Yet brexiteers love to analyse it thus. That's because they see the stats as "confirming" that the result was clear cut. Well it wasn't. It was tight. And the stuff about "northern constituencies," etc, being leave is bullshittery. The fact is that a large majority of Labour voters voted remain everywhere, just about, and an even larger majority of Labour members voted remain. Take heed, Jezza. You're supposed to be standing up for better democracy within the party. A recent YouGov poll revealed that large numbers of Labour leave voters have changed their minds. In a new referendum, it's a good bet that Labour voters and new young voters replacing the recently-dead would reverse the result. Be very afraid, brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 19 - 06:55 PM

The rage of Brexiteers about the suggestion of a referendum reflects their awareness that they are probably in a minority now.

Of course if such a vote was a confirmatory one, on a deal - either May's one or with a tacked-on customs union with remain as the alternative it's hard to know what the hardine Brexiteers would prefer. There's been quite a lot of talk about "this deal is worse than staying in the EU" - maybe they mean it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 02:56 AM

"The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. "
The problem is that the hate based populism that gave us Brexit and Trump is being presented as 'Democracy' by the right wing politicians and the Bum-wipe Press
I have to say, before I experienced them close up, I was unaware of how effective referenda and proportional representation could be when used responsibly - they really are a check on excesses
The tactical voting available to you at election time really makes you think before you put your cross on the ballot paper
Ireland has improved beyond imagination over the last decade or so thanks to two referenda - others on divorce and a woman's place in society on their way (while Little Britain beyond Ireland still lumbers in the Primeval swamps North-East of here)
Bring on the next one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 03:45 AM

What. Jim. Said.
In red boldface caps, and underline it eight times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM

But with double underlining of the important three words - ‘when used responsibly’!

The Brexit referendum was probably the least responsibly-run referendum ever, anywhere. And we will be paying for it for a very long time to come, or rather, our kids will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 04:31 AM

"But with double underlining of the important three words - ‘when used responsibly’!"
That goes without saying Baccy, but when you consider of the farce that Parliamentary democracy has become (and has always been, to a lesser degree) "anywhere has to be better than here" as the man said as he drove into Birmingham !
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:19 AM

Well I can't think of an issue less suited to having a referendum about than membership of the EU. The biggest lie of all that was sold to us among a whole plethora of lies was that it was somehow as simple as putting a cross in one of two boxes on a piece of paper and that that was "democracy." In the last three years we've seen our national money draining away, every economist pointing to the dire threat of a severe shrinkage of our economy, the chances of amazing trade deals evaporating completely and a potential border crisis that initially seemed to even elude most of our politicians. Ironically, the whole issue has been handled so ineptly that a referendum now seems to be the only way out of the mess, and only then if remain were to prevail. I never thought I'd hear meself saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:30 AM

The only sensible way out of this mess is to scrap the whole idea. This government will not do that of course as it will finish them. While that may seem a good thing remember that the alternative of a Tory party run by the Brexitaliban is even worse!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:18 AM

I agree, but I didn't mention it as I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance that she'll do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM

"Well I can't think of an issue less suited to having a referendum about than membership of the EU."
I can't think of single issue unsuited for referendum, given the right circumstances and responsible approach
I can think of many which I wouldn't allow most politicians anywhere near if it were left to me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM

The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. Yet brexiteers love to analyse it thus

That is beause there is no other mechanism of analysis available to allow a comparison across party lines.

This I carefully explained in yet another deleted post but if you wish to continue your puerile behaviour go ahead!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

Do you honestly think, though, that a responsible approach to the brexit referendum was even remotely possible, given the dishonest motivation for calling it in the first place? There was certainly very little that was "responsible" about either campaign, and that was highly predictable. On June 23 2016 an ignorant electorate - ignorant through accepting tissues of lies from both sides, ignorant of the gravity of the choice they were confronted with, ignorant of the implications for the long-term future of the country, ignorant of the potential for the trashing of the Good Friday Agreement, ignorant through often dwelling on their own prejudices and self-interest instead of seeing the bigger picture - made the biggest decision facing the country for decades. A decision we should have expected our body of politicians to make in light of all the information they are paid to collect and understand that the rest of us can't be expected to get our heads around to anything like the same extent. 650 professional people with a host of advisers behind them. Yes we know what a pile of clowns there are embedded among that lot, but we can't do any better. So we did something far worse. By the way, had MPs had a free choice as to whether we should stay or leave, around 500 of them would have said stay, which now only fools and a few unreconstructed members of the Tory hard right still think would have been the wrong choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 06:54 AM

That was in response to Jim alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:04 AM

"Do you honestly think, though, that a responsible approach to the brexit referendum was even remotely possible, given the dishonest motivation for calling it in the first place?"
A different point altogether Steve
No, I see no necessity in leaving Europe whatever, and I see no necessity for referenda being called for without there being a clear need for one
Self-interest politicians and vicious bigots like Farage were allowed to make this an issue - it never arose from pressure from the people - they were never consulted beforehand, just as they are not being consulted now that result the required by those who hold the reins of State has been reached
Referendums should ve a way to allow the people to express their views on an issue they have raised and the process needs to be a matter in which the voters have all the available information at their disposal before they vote
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:08 AM

The United Kingdom was treated as a single constituency for the purpose of the referendum. Lord Ashcroft (see Kevin's 3.04pm post from yesterday) analysed the voting based on the way people had voted in the 2015 general election. Any other way of interpreting the data is likely to be tendentious and potentially misleading. Talk of "leave constituencies" and "remain constituencies" is one such way of trying to hoodwink people into thinking that leave achieved a resounding victory. They didn't. It was tight. It's been said, for example, that there were many 'leave constituencies" in the Labour heartlands in the north. That is misleading because in most or all of those constituencies a majority of Labour voters voted remain in the referendum. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 07:10 AM

It wasn't a different point, Jim. I was addressing directly the caveat in your post which said "...given the right circumstances and responsible approach..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 09:28 AM

the division has always been an argument in the tory party between a minority of far right tories and the slight more sensible majority. they dragged the rest of the country into their squabble and because they were not able to deal with the nicotine-stained man frog and his deluded followers - well, we are where we are. sadly - labour also have shirked their responsibility to stand up on a clear principled platform. they can't be seen to accommodate policies that will harm the country and encourage racism and division or they will deserve the same fate as the tories

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 10:37 AM

Corbyn is not a member of the communist party. That is a verifiable fact. "Vicious bigot" is a matter of opinion, mine is that Farage fits that description, he certainly fits it more closely than he does your "mightily esteemed". He represents no majority, and he never did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

""Vicious bigot" is a matter of opinion, mine is that Farage fits that description, "
Sums him up perfectly - it takes a true 'patriot' to insult the British people by claiming that this scum-bucket represents anybody but the lower depths of society - anybody making such a claim must really despise the British people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM

with a new party formed that will effectively split the vote between ukip and the farage party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM

Here is a EU link explaining how the voting sytems used in the EU elections work

It makes interesting reading, because they are very different to what we have in other elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:26 AM

I decided to step it up and take a look at Google Scholar. This caught my eye because of the mudcat troll activity over the years that was particularly disparaging of some of the European immigrants, singling out Polish immigrants and communities. "Second, the paper argues that Polish nationals' spatial practices have been shaped by anti-immigrant discourse and sentiment surrounding the Brexit vote. In particular, local public spaces are viewed simultaneously as sites of potential conflict and sites of meaningful intercultural engagement and everyday citizenship." I've only read the abstract so far, this is a link so I can read it later and perhaps it will add something useful to this very long-winded discussion.

Rescaling belonging in “Brexit Britain”: Spatial identities and practices of Polish nationals in Scotland after the U.K. Referendum on European Union membership

Abstract
This paper discusses how the 2016 U.K. Referendum on European Union membership has shaped the spatial identities and practices of Polish nationals living in Scotland. On the basis of original qualitative data collected in Edinburgh after the referendum, we make two key arguments. First, the referendum was a catalyst for Polish nationals to rescale spatial identities and challenge normative definitions of nationalism and citizenship. We highlight the role of emotion as a key driver in this process, showing that multiscalar attachments to place and strategies for onward mobility, adaptation, and integration after Brexit are constructed through emotionality. Second, the paper argues that Polish nationals' spatial practices have been shaped by anti-immigrant discourse and sentiment surrounding the Brexit vote. In particular, local public spaces are viewed simultaneously as sites of potential conflict and sites of meaningful intercultural engagement and everyday citizenship. A broader aim of the paper is to advance feminist theory and praxis in population geography through a focus on nonhierarchical and relational scales of experience to better understand migrant identities and practices in a changing Europe.

The full text is at the link.

This one also follows that train of thought: “Where are we going to go now?” European Union migrants' experiences of hostility, anxiety, and (non?)belonging during Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:05 AM

If Switzerland can overturn a flawed referendum, I wonder why the UK does’tt seem capable of doing the same thing in regard to a referendum which was flawed completely, and on every level?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:24 AM

Thanks for that, SRS. It is an interesting paper, though I have to say that when it uses terms like 'coconstition of Brexit geopolitics' I fear expressions may be being used in specialist senses I do not fully understand. Not the paper's fault, of course: it is aimed at other academics with that shared understanding I may lack. Also, that the paper is based on 15 interviews does call into question how representative a sample this is. With those caveats, there seemed to be a fair amount in it. One thing I found striking was how - oversimplifying greatly - the viewpoint of Leavers is often focused on the 'top level' concepts of things like 'sovereignty', 'national interest' and such like, whereas Remainers are often focused on how individuals are affected by all this. It is a crude simplification, of course, as both care about both, but that difference is, I think, present. The paper reflects this, and is largely about how the individuals interviewed deal with pressures at both levels.

Definitely worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:34 AM

The referendum was not conducted on constituency lines. Yet brexiteers love to analyse it thus. That's because they see the stats as "confirming" that the result was clear cut. Well it wasn't. It was tight. And the stuff about "northern constituencies," etc, being leave is bullshittery. The fact is that a large majority of Labour voters voted remain everywhere, just about, and an even larger majority of Labour members voted remain.

I have no interest in analysing the vote on constituency lines. As Steve points out, that's not how the referendum was run.
Nor was it run on party lines, so comments about a large Labour majority for remain is also pointless.
Similarly, as it was a single referendum, there is no point in saying "Scotland voted with a large majority to remain".

If Steve wishes to ignore claims about how constituencies voted, then any other breakdown of the vote must be equally irrelevant.

The result of the referendum was approximately 52:48 in favour of leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

Well I suppose that the breakdown by party would be helpful to party leaderships in informing them of the general sentiment among their supporters. The reason I raised it was in order to counter the oft-made claim that most Labour-held seats ("in Labour's working class northern heartlands," etc) voted leave. Statistically correct, but if you say it, whilst neglecting to say that most Labour voters in those constituencies voted remain, you're being a bit of a scoundrel, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:02 AM

But I haven't said that, so I'm unsure who you're calling a scoundrel.
But if "labour constituencies" voted leave then if they contain a majority of Labour voters then the Labour voters would have had a convincing effect on the referendum (locally) so it is only if a suitable number of labour voters voted Leave that the constituency would show an overall leave vote. But, for the purpose of this vote, constituencies are an irrelevancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM

Out of the closet time for the Brexiteers, it appears
Black Labour MP, David Lammey has declared the extremist Brexiteers to the Nazis, pointing out that Rees Mogg,s website now carries a video by the German Neo Nazi Party AfD, on his website   
HIS PAST IS CATCHING UP WITH HIM, IT APPEARS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:55 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM
Out of the closet time for the Brexiteers, it appears
Black Labour MP, David Lammey has declared the extremist Brexiteers to the Nazis,

I believe that the use of 'Black' as a descriptor for a person is now considered racist, should one who complains about pejorative terms being used about the Irish be using such descriptions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM

Using the term "black" to describe someone's ethnic background is neither racist not offensive. Calling someone a bog trotter is both.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 06:32 AM

"I believe that the use of 'Black' as a descriptor for a person is now considered racist,"
Of course it isn't - black people refer to themselves as such - it has a relevance here as one of yours makes a point of targeting black MPs
I have little doubt that Mr Lammey has undergone the same treatment as are many in today's Brave New Britain - it most certainly has relevance to Lord Snooty's new-found friends
You are now rather crudely avoiding the issue Nigel - who's to blame you ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM

I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 08:31 AM

The terms used offensively for members of minorities subject to some kind of unfair treatment move around all the time. Not just minorities either - being in the majority has rarely saved women from this kind of thing.

"Black" currently is inoffensive, "Coloured" is not. One time it was the other way round. "Queer" has been very much an insult, now it's used positively.

The thing is racists etc can be relied on to use just about any expression in an insulting way, and sooner or later that tarnishes the word. And set against that there is a tradition of taking a word that has been used as an insult and using it with pride.

Get rid of the bigotry and words just become words. But that's quite an ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 12:13 PM

Similarly, as it was a single referendum, there is no point in saying "Scotland voted with a large majority to remain".

That depends entirely on what question you are asking. If you are considering the possibility of a Scottish referendum on independence, it is highly relevant.

Few people seem to be considering that if they vote for independence we might be into Irish Border Question: The Sequel.   Feel free to resolutely avoid thinking about such questions if you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:18 PM

The difference would be the SNP wouldn't have the same objections that the DUP has about that backstop being a threat to the Union. They aren't Unionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM

That is true, McGrath. But as the EU said they are - in principle - prepared to have Scotland as a member after an independence vote, we may have two land borders with the EU, not one. And all the issues of phytosanitory checks etc would apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:35 PM

Although May has repeatedly talked the hard talk about allowing no-deal to remain on the table (and it is still the default scenario), according to those in her "inner circle", her bottom-line worry is the breakup of the union. And an Irish border poll is a real possibility, even a likelihood, if Britain leaves without an agreement in place. (I don't know why the DUP don't take that threat more seriously, considering the likely outcome under such circumstances. But they're good deniers, and totally blinkered.) You can bet Scotland wouldn't be far behind.

May's private illuminati (whoever they are - or were as of 4th April) have the following to say. Stay tuned.

- - -

"No-deal is better than a bad deal" was Theresa May's mantra for two years, making clear that Britain would walk away from negotiations with the EU if necessary. Her statement after the marathon cabinet meeting on Tuesday night, however, put paid to that. In a move which threatened to split her party - always something she had sought to avoid - Mrs May dramatically changed strategy and announced she would seek a deal with Labour support.

What changed her mind? I have been told by government insiders and those close to the prime minister that the answer is the UK union. One of her inner circle said: 'She's fixated on the union. No-deal clearly puts huge strain on the Irish border and the consequence is that a border poll becomes a real possibility. She thinks it would be high risk, and if it succeeded there would be a great impetus to Scotland. It could be that serious in terms of the breakup of the UK.'

Two other government sources told Sky News they believed the union was the decisive factor in Mrs May's thinking. One said: 'It was the union. The prospect of direct rule and some of the decisions that would need to be made in that situation are very unpalatable.' Another source added that the prospect of a border poll in Northern Ireland was 'very real' and something that other cabinet ministers were also concerned about...

In January, shortly before cancelling her second meaningful vote, Theresa May told the House of Commons: 'To those who think we should reject this deal in favour of no deal because we cannot get every assurance we want, I ask what a no-deal Brexit would do to strengthen the hand of those campaigning for Scottish independence or indeed of those demanding a border poll in Northern Ireland. Surely that is the real threat to our Union.'

To those familiar with her thinking, the impression is that the prime minister has become increasingly swayed by this argument.


4th April 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/why-did-theresa-may-ditch-a-no-deal-brexit-11683841

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

Without Scotland there wouldn't be a United Kingdom anyway, Northern Ireland and Wales aren't kingdoms, unlike Scotland. The Union of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland, maybe...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 08:19 PM

Not sure I get your point. If the two Irelands reunite - which they can do if there’s a mutual will for it - then the North is no longer part of the UK, but joins the Republic.

Scotland’s drive to be independent has been made very clear, as has their widespread resentment about being pulled out of the EU against their majority’s will, and Europe has indicated willingness to accept them into the fold if they break away.

This would then diminish the United Kingdom - i.e. “the Union” - to just England and Wales. What is the point of quibbling over semantics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:07 AM

Presumably we also remove the Scottish and Irish aspects of the flag, so we end up with just the English flag?

I went to a lecture on St George around 6 months ago, and it turns out the red cross on a white background is not St George's flag after all - early paintings show a completely different flag. In fact, according to the lecturer, the thing we call St George's flag was adopted in (I think) the 16th century from the city flag of Milan. St George is also patron saint of Milan, and someone confused the saint's flag with the city one. There is some irony in the very flag arising from confusion with Europe...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:40 AM

Irish Unity has been on the cards for some time now - the gap between the two groups has lessened considerably and there is now pressure from both sides for it
The major factors appear to have been the reassessment of the position of the Catholic Church brought about by the abuse disclosures in the Republic and the intransigence on issues such as pregnancy termination, same sex marriage and woman's rights in the North   
The DUP no longer has an overall majority and has to rely on co-operation of other parties
It seems to me that the end of the artificial division was inevitable, the economic effects of Brexit and the threat to the peace negotiation are just the icing on the long-awaited cake
I look forward to it happening
Probably the only good to have come out of this long-running farce, though it's a crying shame that it should ever been inflicted on the British people
I would love to see Scotland take their destiny in their own hands, but I'm not sure about a one-policy party with no long-term game plan - maybe the development of a Deep-Fried Mars Bar industry :-)   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM

see you, jimmy - careful with the weary, old patronising stereotypes there. i'm in scotland -well, glasgow- about once a fortnight and it doesn't need saying how many advantages scotland could gain from independence. (i'll take your mars bar and raise you oil, water, renenwables, partick thistle, central station, whisky and shitloads of money) once we get rid of paying for nuclear weaponry, crossrail, hs2 and many other english (usually london) financial projects we can do just fine. and - post-brexit- many english based firms will have advantages in relocating north.
once we have SNP led independence they will have given up their USP and become just another party and presumably will not do so well. as there is PR in the (vastly superior) scottish parliament, coalitions will be more probable and the more progressive nature of scottish politics should ensure better government than what they currently endure from westminster - what's not to like?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM

Ha ha, it didn't take you long to include the football team that Billy Connolly thought was called "Partick Nil!"

You forgot to mention Scotland's greatest products, namely Bill Shankly (aka God), Kenny Dalglish and Graham Souness...Andy Robertson...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM

"see you, jimmy - careful with the weary, old patronising stereotypes there. i'm in scotland -well, glasgow-"
You must excuse my somewhat wry humour - I got it from my Dad who was born in Glasgow (don't know if The Ridgeway is still there)
I know well that Scotland is fully capable of standing on its own two feet - probably more-so than Britain now, as things stand at present
I just haven't made up my mind about the SNP yet
You are aware of course that one of Ireland's greatest heroes (certainly our family's), James Connolly, was born in Edinburgh
I have to say that one of the few football matches I ever attended - a Celtic/Rangers derby, was the first time I'd ever seen men in cages

"You forgot to mention Scotland's greatest products"
And you forgot to mention Alec Douglas Home - but we all have our cross to bear   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM

MGoH: Without Scotland there wouldn't be a United Kingdom anyway, Northern Ireland and Wales aren't kingdoms, unlike Scotland.
That is irrelevant. Scotland isn't a kingdom either (now). The countries are united under a single 'kingdom' which would continue even if the number of constituent parts was reduced. The clue is in the title "United Kingdom", otherwise it would be "United Kingdoms".

Bonnie Shaljean: Not sure I get your point. If the two Irelands reunite - which they can do if there's a mutual will for it - then the North is no longer part of the UK, but joins the Republic.
That is some assumption. There is still the question (which I've put to Jim a few times with no good response) that even if Ireland re-united (requiring agreement from residents of both halves), would it re-unite as a single country (Republic of Ireland) as part of the EU, or would the Republic become part of Northern Ireland, and thus part of the UK. The answer to this question would need to be clear before any referendums were held about re-unification.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM

Ummm, no... the Republic isn't going to become part of the UK. It's an independent republic. If that really needs clarifying at official level, it can be done. Re-read Theresa May's address to Parliament below.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM

would it re-unite as a single country (Republic of Ireland) as part of the EU, or would the Republic become part of Northern Ireland, and thus part of the UK.

Given the history of the Republic, is that a serious question?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:07 AM

Similarly reunification for the North to become part of the republic of Ireland would be a change to their position, leaving the UK, and becoming a part of the EU.
Yes. it was a serious question, and one that I feel should be made totally clear by anyone who suggests that the two parts of Ireland should vote for reunification.
It is all very well to claim that it is obvious, or that one of Mrs May's speeches makes it clear, but this whole discussion seems to be created by ambiguities in the Brexit referendum which people claim were unclear at the time of the vote. Let's not go down that route again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM

Fine by me. But I still think it's a head-scratchingly strange question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM

Similarly reunification for the North to become part of the republic of Ireland would be a change to their position, leaving the UK, and becoming a part of the EU.
Yes. it was a serious question, and one that I feel should be made totally clear by anyone who suggests that the two parts of Ireland should vote for reunification.

Then let me be totally clear. There are very few countries, to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, that fight for and win independence and then decide to re-unify with the opponent, and particularly not in a way that hands the ultimate authority back to the old opponent. It is of course theoretically possible, just as it is possible for say India to decide to become subject to British rule, but in both cases I think it vanishingly unlikely and a fantastical notion. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM

" Let's not go down that route again."
Nothing other than leaving was made clear at the time of the vote, that's why the whole thing has turned into the farce it has become
The UK is a a misnomer and always has been, it is the result of past conquests and as far as Ireland goes, was brought about by threat of invasion - nothing 'united' about that
Scotland us, in fact Governed by an unelected Government - go count the number of Conservative MPs
The annexation of a state or part of a state with a separate culture and history is a most unnatural act and is destined to lead to disruption and even violence - when you annex part of a a state then give two thirds of the people dominance over the other third you create the time bomb that the six counties have always been
Now that England has reached a decision which adversely affects the annexed counties the chickens have finally come home to roost big time - Britain is now relying on a sectarian party to force through the most important decision it has ever had to make - a real tiger by the tail
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM

In my 2:35 post just above, what I said was:

... an Irish border poll is a real possibility, even a likelihood, if Britain leaves without an agreement in place.

If there ends up being no deal, do you really, really, really, really, really, really think Ireland - which is a nation in its own hard-fought right, remember - would voluntarily choose to give up her independence, her seat at the table of a large stable trading bloc, and its funding support, to cleave unto a foundering Britain who has cast herself adrift, with the population deeply riven? Seriously?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:39 AM

Anything’s possible on Planet Nigs, Bonnie. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

"would it re-unite as a single country"
If you visited the North, you wouldn't need to ask that question Nigel
Once you leave behind the enforced politics of the North at an time other than 'The Glorious Twelfth', you would see that any divisions are political other than social ones
There are, of course, factions caused by the built in inequality of partition, but once that is removed, there are no grounds for division
People from the South travel North with no problem and vise versa - you need to come to this town during, say, The Willie Clancy Summer School, or visit one of the Norther Singing or Music weekends to see how they get on
We came to this town when the hunger strikers were dying - black flags bedecking the street and Prods and Catholics playing, singing talking and drinking in the packed bars
We travel the North regularly - now the border is gone you don't know you're in a different country - except the Brits kept the best land for themselves - The Empire was always like that
This is in imposed division - remove the reason for there being a difference and there isn't one
I suggest you look up the change in percentages of those who want a United Ireland - on both sides of the divide
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM

Here is an example of what Jim is talking about. And it happened in the late 70s. The height of the Troubles. I wasn't there to witness this, but my (English-born) husband was.

Michael had won the All Britain Fleadh in bodhrán, and this entitled him to compete in the All Ireland, which was being held that year in Buncrana, Co. Donegal - only about 12 miles or so from the Derry border, with Derry city just beyond it.

The Irish of all stripes love their music, and they're good at it. One reason for this is that a lot of the children start playing very young, schools are fertile breeding ground, and a natural thing to do is form them into marching bands. And marching bands mean parades.

So: a Fleadh, loads of talented kids with instruments, and a deep division between Orange and Green, over which people are dying regularly just the other side of the Foyle. Hence, there would be not one parade, but two. Starting at opposite ends of the town, each heading towards the centre. At the same time. A Catholic band striding down the high street from one side, a Protestant one from the other, both playing their music at full blast. High Noon in Buncrana.

Michael watched with mounting unease as the two sides kept moving relentlessly towards the middle, approaching nearer and nearer until they faced off, and...

marched through each other. In organised lines. Never dropped a step, never missed a beat, never fluffed a note. Straight. Through. And on out the far end, the two tunes mingling in the air behind them.

Michael says he never saw anything like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

That's a charming story!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

It was "United Kingdoms" originally when James I and VI came down to London, referring to England with Wales and Scotland. The term United Kingdom only seems to have been used from the Irish Act of Union in 1801.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:01 AM

As for Nigel's "The countries are united under a single 'kingdom' which would continue even if the number of constituent parts was reduced," that doesn't follow. Even if Scotland decides to stick with a monarchy with the same Queen or King as England, that wouldn't mean a single kingdom, any more than it does for Canada, Australia and some other countries. Noone would dream of suggesting those were part of the UK.bb

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM

Prime Minister Theresa May promised European leaders that the U.K. would participate in next month's elections in order to secure a Brexit extension, though the country can still avoid that fate if the House of Commons is able to pass a deal before May 23. If Brits who favor remaining in the European Union thought holding European elections might bolster their position and undermine a push toward Brexit, this latest poll suggests they could be very, very wrong.

By the numbers, per YouGov:

    Brexit Party: 27%
    Labour Party: 22%
    Conservative Party: 15%
    Green Party: 10%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    UKIP: 7%
    Change U.K.: 6%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM

The full figures for the poll Iains referred to are here

The composition of the Brexit party is striking.


Affiliation last election:
42% voted conservative
10% voted Labour.


The age breakdown is:


18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%
50-64: 34%
65+: 42%


Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:36 AM

Sorry, I used the shorthand of 'Brexit Party' when I should have referred to the weighted figures for people who expressed an intention to vote for the Brexit party. I have no figures on the actual membership of the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM

Striking confirmation of the old adage:
For the young to be socialist indicates they have a heart.
For the old to be socialist indicates they have no brain!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:54 AM

Farage The Brexit Fraud Keeps On Lying

Nothing new there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

The problem with quoting adages is they can be a good example of confirmation bias. They need to be hadled with care. For instance we could quote:

The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.


- which is much more about declining into narrowness than supposed gain in wisdom. The history of the adage Iains gave, by the way, is very uncertain but seems to be talking about support for the French revolution in its earlier forms and did not refer to socialists as such, though some might view the idea of égalité in that light.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM

By way of a bit of light relief

I would tell 500 lies

Scroll down and play the video. It's worth it

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM

Can we please stop falling for the nonsense, chaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:05 AM

Stop responding to trolls, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:36 PM

The ComRes poll on 16th April gives very different results to YouGov's poll:
===
European Parliament Voting Intention: LAB 33%; CON 18%; BRX 17%; CHUK 9%; LD 9%; UKIP 5%; Green 5%; SNP 4%; Other 1%
===

A warning, perhaps, to treat all polls with caution, especially at this early stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:11 AM
"We may disagree with the decision many leavers made based on cynical false claims and disinformation,
but accept they did it for what they believed at the time were positive reasons for the benefit of us all..
It's clear many now regret that decision."

So "what they believed at the time" and "now regret that decision" indicates that they were suckered into making a wrong call. They didn't realise what a bloody disaster brexit would inevitably be. Well I did, along with millions of others who embarked on a rapid learning curve during the campaign, the responsible thing to do. On the morning of 24 June 2016 I was in Italy and along with the Brits, Germans, Italians and Danes in the hotel I was bloody devastated. If you are one of the above "regretful" types, you didn't do your homework and then you irresponsibly voted out of ignorance. Let's not forget that these poor wee souls who now regret their decision are dragging us out of the EU in the biggest disaster for the country since WWII. So their ignorance and irresponsibility have got us into this mess. Ignorant is too kind a word. On top of that, over a third of leave voters openly admit to being racist. And that's just the ones who admit it. Ignorance and racism led to the leave victory. Anything else is just indulging stupidity.
This is copied from the Shamima Begum thread, where Steve appears to have posted it in error.

Once again, a remain supporter (Steve Shaw) states, quite clearly that those who voted 'leave' were either racist, or ignorant.
If I were to state that those who voted remain were all dickheads, I would expect to be chided for disparaging their views (even though they were in the minority). The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM
The full figures for the poll Iains referred to are here
The composition of the Brexit party is striking.

Affiliation last election:
42% voted conservative
10% voted Labour.

The age breakdown is:
18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%50-64: 34%
65+: 42%
Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%

Less than 60% fit into a 'Social Grade'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Social grade is a meaningless metric anyway. What it usually means is income, which does not really correlate with attitudes, and correlates only loosely with opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:20 PM

The full report explains all, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

Brexit party Composition

18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%
50-64: 34%
65+: 42%


Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%

Rather misleading social grading. The largest demographic is 65+. Retirees are classed as Social grade E, regardless of prior employment history or educational attainment. It must also be pointed out that of the retired tertiary education was available to far fewer than today:

Students obtaining university degrees, UK
First degrees

1950 17,337
1960 22,426
1970 51,189
1980 68,150
1990 77,163
2000 243,246
2005 278,380
2010 330,720

Trying to make it a class or educational issue simply does not fly.
2011 350,800

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.

You do not know what the view of the majority of people hold on this issue. Nor do I. Nor does anyone on here. The referendum was a snapshot of people's views 3 years ago and even then we did not know what the majority view of the UK people was. All we can say is that of those who voted, a few more voted to leave than did not. We do not know why people voted as they did. We do not know the views of those who did not or could not vote. We do not know how people would vote given another chance. We do not know new voters views. How can you possibly say that remain is not the view of the majority of UK people? Putting it in capitals does not make it any more true.

And FWIW being called a dickhead if far preferable to being told I should be shot or fuck off and live in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.

You do not know what the view of the majority of people hold on this issue.

No, I do not know what the majority view is. Although the majority of the voting public voted to leave the EU. But your (partial) quote was of me saying what the majority view, ON THIS SITE appears to be.

How can you possibly say that remain is not the view of the majority of UK people?
I couldn't, and so I didn't, even if you wish to imply that comment to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:12 AM

Ok Nigel, here is the full quite

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!

You say quite clearly that the majority view here, the Mudcat Cafe, which we know is remain, is not representative of the UK people. In your next post you say you do not know the view of the UK people. If you do not know the view of the UK people, how do you know the view here is not representative of it?

Looking forward to your linguistic contortions to explain that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:45 AM

The leavers are fully aware that the majority would almost certainly vote to stay if they were given an opportunity to re-confirm their decision - there can be no other possible reason for not allowing a second vote
Even the rich-rats like Rees-Mogg and Dyson are rapidly deserting the sinking ship and putting their personal fortunes elsewhere

Like these
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-companies-leaving-uk-list-job-cuts-eu-no-deal-customs-union-a8792296.html

Not an option for most of us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

I think that shows that class is meaningless in the UK at least in the way it is used. Apart from the very rich, the Rees Moggs of the world, we are almost all pretty much the same. So I am social class E now, having moved from probably AB before I retired. Despite very little drop in my disposable income. What is not true though is that making this about educational achievement is meaningless. Degree level education was only available to a minority in my day, so in this sense there will be a correlation with age. But don't look at that, look at O levels and GCSEs, which were/are available to all. Those with 5 or more O levels, or GCSEs grade A-C, are much more likely to have voted remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:33 AM

The leavers are fully aware that the majority would almost certainly vote to stay if they were given an opportunity to re-confirm their decision

That is simply an opinion with zero data to support it. Conversely the surge in membership of the Brexit party would suggest perhaps the opposite is true.

Degree level education was only available to a minority in my day, so in this sense there will be a correlation with age. But don't look at that, look at O levels and GCSEs, which were/are available to all. Those with 5 or more O levels, or GCSEs grade A-C, are much more likely to have voted remain.

The same correlation with age occurs for OL and GCSE making your argument fallacious.
Percentage of School Leavers Achieving 5+ A-C (or Pass) O-level or A*-CGCSE (1962–2006)
15% 1962
24% 1986
58% 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:37 AM

We could muse for a long time on the deficiencies of social categorisation measures, but that would take us a long way from Brexit, so I will resist.

The effect of the fragmentation of the pro-remain vote into separate camps (ChangeUK, LibDem, Green etc) is difficult to assess. Because the EU voting uses a version of proportional representation it does not matter too much in one sense because the 'pro-remain/pro-leave' representation more or less follows the sum of the votes for that viewpoint, rather than the separate parties. However there is a complication of a minimum threshold of I think 10% (or more in some places), and that could end up eliminating a viewpoint entirely if it becomes too fragmented.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM

An O level is an O level, one of mine was an E I think. O level = A-C GCSE. In any case thats not the point, secondary education was available and free to all in 1962, which is about when I went to school. If people despite that did not get the grades, thats nobody's fault but their own. And it is people who have not put in the effort to get anywhere in life, and are now casting around for someone else to blame, who are likely to have voted for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

The minimum threshold is an issue and thats what I will be looking at when I decide my vote. But that vote will go to one of the clear anti brexit parties. Unless Labour come out clearly in favour of Starmer's viewpoint in the meantime, and chuck out the wreckers like Hoey and Flint.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM

"I think that shows that class is meaningless in the UK at least in the way it is used."
How so ?The Rees Moggs and Dysons can continue to campaign for Brexit while at the same time, making their own investments safe by moving them to safer parts of the world
Those who voted for leaving from our walk of life did so because they fell for the lies that by doing so it would improve our lot (particularly by keeping foreigners out - the oldest excuse for poverty used by the establishment)
They/we have no other waay of protecting what litle we have
Pretty significant difference, as afar as I'm concerned
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:11 AM

There have been some really daft postings on this thread but, if we were handing out prizes for daftness, I would nominate David Carter's post of 'Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM '.

quote

And it is people who have not put in the effort to get anywhere in life, and are now casting around for someone else to blame, who are likely to have voted for Brexit.

Tell that to Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Starkey and the boss of Wetherspoons. They are not my idea of people who didn't put in the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:18 AM

The whole point of BrexShit is to benefit the wealthy and powerful - they started it, they’ve driven it, and they’re still driving it, aided and abetted by The Nicotine-Stained Frog, The Blond Buffoon, The Lying Scottish Viper, Jake Rich-Mong, and supported by their brown-nose, working-class mucky-toffs on this thread and elsewhere.

Everything to do with their wealth, SFA to do with benefitting the rest of the people of the U.K.

End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:23 AM

Having spent many hours discussing market regulation with a father in law who was a senior economist for the World Bank, and decades working for the Economic Regulation Group of the Civil Aviation Authority, I think I have picked up the basics of economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:40 AM

It was in response to Stanron's post, Jim. I may disagree with his views but he is far from being a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:56 AM

Carole Cadwalladr tells it like it is.

Well who’da thunk it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

Jacob Rees Mogg inherited part of his wealth from his grandfather's family who made it by sending my ancestors down their coal mines at age 11. The rest came from his grandmother who married into the family on condition that they converted to catholicism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:17 AM

"It was in response to Stanron's post, Jim"
Sorry Steve - Stanron's just hit and run, not really a fully qualified troll - irritating rater than insulting
My mistake

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:21 AM

Meant to add before my premature ejaculation
Now we have the first fatality in the increasingly unstable Northern Ireland situation.
A young woman journalist was shot dead during rioting as police searched for suspected caches of weapons - not the shape of things to come, I hop
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 08:46 AM

not the shape of things to come, I hope

As I hope do us all.

And still so many seem to think if you have worked out how to collect tariffs the border is not an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 12:40 PM

Just posted this - it didn't take so let's see if it works this time
Envy has nothing to do with this - there is nothing to admire about these people
They are incapable of carrying out the basic needs of staying alive - If it wasn't for plumbers, they'd have to sit in a field and if it wasn't for electricians they'd have to do it i the dark
The vast majority of them inherit their wealth rather than earn it and they have to buy the services of those with far greater skills to remain where they are - or even just stay alive
Who envy's the figure of fun Rees Mogg has become - I can't think of anybody who would wish to lower themselves to his level ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

EU introduces new minimum rights for 'gig economy' workers like Uber drivers and Deliveroo riders

"The UK could end up following EU rules at this point if the Brexit transition period is extended, meaning the rights could apply to workers in the UK. However, if the UK leaves the EU earlier, employees will not benefit from the rules."


I am sure Nigel Farage will be doing his best to make sure everyone knows that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 03:54 AM

They are incapable of carrying out the basic needs of staying alive - If it wasn't for plumbers, they'd have to sit in a field and if it wasn't for electricians they'd have to do it i the dark.

It needs to be said that to carry out many kinds of electrical work requires a registered competant person in the UK and many countries have far more stringent codes. This is in order to comply with building codes,household insurance and potential liability claims and even to enable a dwelling to be sold.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

THe Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999 place similar restrictions on a householder, especially when concerning pressurized heating systems.

Any fool can change a tap washer or rewire a plug- not many have a comprehensive knowledge of the regulations to to carry out more complex work.
Those that make loads of dosh employ experts. Why have a dog and bark?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 05:45 AM

This is purely anecdotal, I know, but I have just come back from the chemist having picked up some supplies for my wife. There were two people in front of me. The first person could not get their prescription because of shortages at the suppliers but the chemist hoped it would be available by the end of next week. The second was diabetic and none of theirs was available either, but the pharmacist was off trying to find some alternative while the customer was just repeating plaintively "what am I supposed to do?"

We know there have been shortages due to stockpiling because of Brexit, so there is a potential connection, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM

DMcG your evidence may be anecdotal but representative of a problem across the EU (as I pointed out many months ago when the issue was first raised here and blamed on Brexit)

Any internet search will establish medicine shortages are increasing throughout the EU, not just in the UK.


https://www.pgeu.eu/en/policy/20:medicine-shortages.html

It has as much to do with a diminishing supply base and decreasing profitability as much as anything else.


https://www.hpra.ie/docs/default-source/publications-forms/guidance-documents/adv-g0020-medicines-shortages-framework-v2.pdf?sfv


https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/post-authorisation/medicine-shortages

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 02:06 AM

"they'd have to sit in a field
Should read "shit in a field" of course
And no - in my experience working for more than a few of them, they are incapable of repairing fuses and changing light bulbs
Those who think otherwise (especially those who regard British workers as "barking dogs") need t go and work for a few
Totally reliant on those they despise and leech off CARICATURES ALL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 02:37 AM

Another anecdote while there is little real news about Brexit. For a while by daughter had a boyfriend from one of these uber-rich families. They had a magnificent kitchen, certainly of the standard that it could appear in a glossy "Ideal Homes" sort of magazine. My daughter attempted to do something trivial in it - make a cup of tea, perhaps. They were horrified: none of the work surfaces were waterproof and the slightest splash or drip risked damaging it. It turned out the kitchen had never been used - every single meal was eaten out in a restaurant, even breakfasts, and there was a separate scullery where a kettle could be boiled. The kitchen's sole function was to look impressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 08:39 AM

"Another anecdote while there is little real news about Brexit."
One of the great trends today is to manufacture goods for appearance rather that practical use - a pig to install and in the long rem, made to look at - useless and built to be replaced

Fats and opinions
So there we have it
Patriotic Rich people incapable of changing a light bulb or mending a fuse are ok to look down on those of us they rely on for everyday living and are entitled to drag us out of Europe while investing their money elsewhere
Great Easter Message

My memories of working for the ricvh were educational, to say the least
The richest man in England one locked me in his kitchen when he 'slipped ou fo an hour' presumably because he was worried I's runn of with the family silver
We worked in his luxury Westminster first-floor apartment throughout the winter and were forced to climb a frost-covered ladder because 'the neigbours "didn't like workmen using the stairs"   
People like that are unfit to hold public positions like occupying seats in The House of Lords
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 01:20 PM

So there we have it
Patriotic Rich people incapable of changing a light bulb or mending a fuse are ok to look down on those of us they rely on for everyday living and are entitled to drag us out of Europe while investing their money elsewhere.

A highly insulting opinion. The statistics clearly demonstrate that DIY capability is higher among older people. A higher Social class merely means an easier ability to pay for work by tradesmen.

The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 08:49 AM

Hilaire Belloc 1870-1953 probably had the right general idea:

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan.

Being an excellent plumber/electrician is all very well, but unless there is someone you can sell your skills to you will soon run out of work opportunities on your own property.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 09:35 AM

One problem with this approach is the concept there are a fixed set of DIY jobs that to be measured. It is a fiction: the relevant set of tasks varies in each generation and they are broadly the ones most relevant to you. My father had a last and would repair his shoes. I have never done so, nor have my children. On the other hand he would have been hopeless driving a trap on one hand, or creating and managing a spreadsheet on the other. He could have learnt to do either, but it was not relevant so he didn't. I am as capable of changing a plug as most people of my generation, but as almost everything you buy these days comes with a sealed plug pre-installed, I can't remember the last time I did so.

People do as many DIY jobs as they ever did, I would guess. They are just different jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 09:54 AM

Incidentally, there was a facebook photo posted this morning of my son and grandson (3) painting his bedroom wall.   I don't see why painting walls is omitted - I am sure most people do this - but plug-changing is something to highlight. It all smacks to me of oldies lamenting how it was in their day …

And, since we are talking traditional skills, my daughter and her fiancé are off in August on a short blacksmith course, the end result of which will be wedding rings they will have made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 11:10 AM

Actually Jim the ones in the House of Lords seem to have a better idea of how to govern in our interests. Its the ones in the House of Commons who are the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM

"Actually Jim the ones in the House of Lords seem to have a better idea of how to govern in our interests"
Six of one - half dozen of the other really
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:01 AM

From Yougov:

Nigel Farage’s new party tops the polls with 27% of the vote

In our first poll on the forthcoming EU Parliament elections last week Nigel Farage’s new outfit stormed into third place with 15% of the vote. This was despite the Brexit Party not having formally launched.

Now, following the burst of publicity that came with their official formation, our second poll, conducted for the People’s Vote, shows the Brexit Party leapfrogging into first place on 27% of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 04:18 AM

27% is not a majority. We have to ensure that the remain vote gets out and votes for candidates committed to maintaining the place of the UK at the top table of Europe. Whether this includes Labour the have until May 22nd to show.

Note that there is no question of Farage's party "winning the European elections" as some of the more fanciful headlines in the sewer press have said. They are not standing in nearly enough seats to do that. The European elections will be won by either EPP or S&D. We need to vote for candidates who will engage constructively with the new administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

Depends on who you ak really
As 'Yougov is a survey organisation set up by twp Conservative Party activists it doesn't leave much to the imagination who they would ask
I can just see them with their clipboards waking the streets of Mayfair
Guess who is a serial dismisser of surveys when they come up with figures that don't suit him - no prizes, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 06:18 AM

Counting Labour as remain, and the tories as brexit, that is a majority for remain. Lets make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

Just heard on BBC News that the repellent harridan Widdecombe has joined The Nicotine-Stained Frog’s Brexit Party and will stand for election as an MEP. They suit each other, in more ways than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:11 PM

I wonder if our resident Brexiteers one ofwhom has been most vocal in condemning a ex labour MP for criminal offences will do the same to the Conservative MP found guitly today of fiddling expenses.


I shall await the silence.................:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 02:06 AM

It’s deafening, Raggy. No surprise there then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM

"Conservative MP found guilty today of fiddling expenses."
Probably has a great future in Europe before him
"After being implicated (alongside Tim Smith) in the cash-for-questions affair, Neil Hamilton became widely associated with sleaze; he was defeated in the 1997 general election, and subsequently left politics. His wife Christine and he went on to become media celebrities. He left the Conservative Party in 2002, and joined UKIP. He was elected to the National Executive Committee of UKIP in 2011. Following his election to the National Assembly for Wales, he served as UKIP Group Leader between 2016 and 2018."
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM

Grant the Brexiteers consistency at least. Christopher Davies has only been found guilty of making false expenses claims in connection with votes. What's to criticise?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:18 AM

Beats groping the hired help I suppose
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 06:34 PM

From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:47 AM
Grant the Brexiteers consistency at least. Christopher Davies has only been found guilty of making false expenses claims in connection with votes. What's to criticise?

But, in the great "Expenses Claims Rip-off", where did the blame largely fall?
It's no coincidence the MPs found guilty of fiddling are all Labour

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:53 AM

Tsk, tsk, Nigel. If I was a nitpicker I would point out that an article 6 years out of date is no real measure of what has really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM

A perfect example of wahataboutism Nigel. The question is do you condemn fraud to manipulate permitted spending on elections?
Avoiding answering it by pointing to other offences other people have committed does nothing more than highlight your avoidance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:48 AM

Dave, it’s virtually impossible to place any credence whatsoever on an anti-Labour propaganda-piece, printed by the Torygraph - the mouthpiece of the propaganda department of the Tory party. As the foul harridan Thatcher once famously said, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”.

The only people daft enough to fall for their drivel are those who feverishly seek confirmation-bias for their own misguided, misinformed opinions.

Nigs’s post is just another typical pathetic attempt, in true-blue Tory tradition, at diverting attention from the fact that Brexit is in deep doo-doo. Really hardly worth commenting on.

Meanwhile, any good news about BrexShit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:43 AM

Oborne's article is the biggest load of badly-argued bollocks I've read in months. Go on, take a look and be entertained. Shame on you for digging that one up, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 08:23 AM

Not only that, it is referring to a time when 'New Labour' had embraced the best of the Tory values and were virtually indistinguishable one from the other
The vitriolic attacks on somebody who is wanting to change things is evidence enough of that
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-general-election-expenses-scandal-distract-schedule-mps-tory-party-paul-nuttall-david-a7690106.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:05 AM

We may want to take this into consideration before entering into any trade deal with US
Antibiotic use in farm animals

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:21 AM

Not bad for responses to a single post:
DMcG says it is "whataboutism". At least that has the value of being a modern idea.
Dave the Gnome says it is six years old. But it was the most recent wide-ranging investigation into the snouts in the trough.
Steve Shaw says that that article is the biggest load of badly-argued bollocks I've read in months but doesn't try to contradict any of its findings.
Jim Carroll seems to believe that the Labour MPs at the time were actually conservatives in disguise. Heads up- they weren't voted in by the Conservatives.

The standards of posting here are certainly failing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:51 AM

"Jim Carroll seems to believe that the Labour MPs at the time were actually conservatives in disguise." That's about the size of 'New Labour' as far as I'm concerned - the leadership took up all your shitty values including dipping into the public purse to furnish their duck palaces and setting up offshore accounts
I stopped voting for anybody when Blair showed his predatory head - if I lived in the UK I'd walk over broken glass to give Labour a second chance
Your party is no longer one to be taken seriously - Ukip has more direction and unity than your mmob have and they're scum
As usual, you have totally chosen to ignore the fact that your party was as corrupt and self serving as any on the parliamentary scene
Your standards aren't failing - they've never been anything to write home about - evasive, to say the least
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:12 AM

DMcG says it is "whataboutism".

I said it was about not answering the question. Which it was, and your recent post still is. I said "whataboutism" is the technique you used. But that was incidental (and not a modern idea, by the way). The salient point was avoiding the question, as you still are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM

The point is, Nigel, that you only bring up a 6 year old article to try and deflect some of the shit that your party is still causing. As DMcG says, you are simply underlining the fact that you are avoiding the question. It isn't working.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM

now something more important about Brexit

Labour has worked hard on staying ambiguous, but they are running out of road. They will probably have to be clear in the next week or two. Perhaps not before the local election tions, but well before the EU ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM

Trumpshit Goes Brexshit. Or vice versa.

He's takin are cuntry bak.

Donald Trump has announced that the US will withdraw its support for a United Nations treaty regulating the multibillion-dollar global arms trade.

Trump said: “We’re taking our signature back. Under my administration, we will never surrender American sovereignty to anyone. We will never allow foreign bureaucrats to trample on your second amendment freedom. I’m officially announcing today that the United States will be revoking the effect of America’s signature from this badly misguided treaty.”

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:51 AM

New IRA says Brexit helps it to recruit, according to a paywall article in the Sunday Times.

Of course, they would say that. But taking into account that any form of Brexit is the UK imposing something on Northern Ireland they voted against, the New IRA is probably right that it make recruiting easier. Objecting that the vote applied to the UK as a whole has no bearing on the fact that the possible recruits are from a community that voted to remain.

It emphasises yet again for those too blinkered to see that the border is not just about how you collect tariffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 06:13 AM

Headline in the Belfast Telegraph below says it all. The leader of Saoradh has actually called Brexit a "pilot light" in "reigniting that side of physical force". Elsewhere he declares, "By reviving talk of a hard border, Brexit was a huge opportunity... gives it focus, gives it a physical picture. It’s a huge help'."

But hey. Who cares, right? As long as it's not YOU who has to live with the danger and mutilation and loss and heartbreak.


Brexit a recruiting tool for dissidents, says Saoradh chief
Belfast Telegraph

Brexit is a 'huge help' to Irish republicanism, says dissident leader
Guardian

New dissidents hoping to exploit Brexit
BBC (nearly a year old)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/brexit-a-recruiting-tool-for-dissidents-says-saoradh-chief-37891141.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/06/brexit-is-a-huge-help-to-irish-republicanism-says-dissident-leader

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44082633



Can't get the clickifier to work. But there's plenty more where that came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 07:36 AM

One of the nastier aspects of Brexit has just hit the Irish fan
Peter Casey, who used the hatred of Irish Travellers to fight the Presidential election is now aspiring to be an EU representative on a "get rid of the freeloading immigrants" ticket - he is at present campaigning in Tuam
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM

Meanwhile back to things appertaining to brexit.
We are now in the kind of territory that we have not seen since the days of the SDP. The Brexit Party (28%) is polling ahead of Labour (22%) and polling more than double the vote share of the Tories (13%).

Not delivering a promise on Brexit comes at a price!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM

Voting shortly closes in Spain. The outcome could upset the cosy club in Brussells. It will be interesting t0 see how Catalonia fares. The right is expected to show a resurgence.
In France Le Pen is giving Macron a hardtime, and despite the media playing it down the riots are still ongoing
    Riot police unleashed tear gas on protesters in Strasbourg today(26th) as they surrounded European Parliament
    Fights happened despite €5million measures proposed by Emmanuel Macron on their 24th day of protest
   

Politicians do need to listen to their electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:13 AM

Tomorrow night the NEC has to finalise the Labour manifesto for the EU elections, so here are my thoughts on how the argument will go.

Forget what is good for the country, or Labour core principles or other abstractions. It will all be a numbers game, driven as cold-heartedly as possible. Currently most polls have Labour and the Brexit party in a two horse race, and about equal numbers.

Option 1 is to come out as Remain/Revoke/Confirmatory referendum. This will upset Leave voters who have stayed under the Labour umbrella, and a goodly fraction would move from Labour to the Brexit Party. Labour is weakened and the Brexit Party strengthened.

Option 2 is to come out as Brexit. This will make a good few remain supporters move the Green or Change UK, but obviously none will move to the Brexit Party. However, some people in the Brexit Party will be there who are Labour at heart but did not trust it to leave. They may move back. So this option may leave Labour more or less the same on numbers, but weaken Nigel.

Option 3 is to stay ambiguous. They will probably have some Labour voters move to Green or ChangeUK in frustration, but almost all of this will already have happened.

Conclusion:
Most likely: stay ambiguous
Next most likely: Come out for Brexit
Least likely: Confirmatory vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:03 AM

Currently most polls have Labour and the Brexit party in a two horse race, and about equal numbers.   ??????

The Brexit Party (28%) is polling ahead of Labour (22%)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:39 AM

“Referring to Tory arch Brexiteer, and leader of the party’s European Research Group, Mr Ahern described Jacob Rees Mogg as a "lovely fella when he’s asleep"”

Ireland’s former taoiseach Bertie Ahern being unusually frank when talking about Brexiteers last week. Asked what he meant Ahern was even more blunt   "When he’s awake, he definitely is a strange fish I tell you, in and out of the water."

"And regards to the fact that lot of these guys went to Oxford, Cambridge and Eton, they’re not very bright. This is the problem."

With such personalised rancour coming out it in public, you’d have to wonder - and fear - what is being said in private discussions.
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/brexiteer-jacob-rees-mogg-admitted-to-me-he-didnt-know-what-the-irish-border-was-bertie-ahern-38057788.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:33 AM

Leftard is offensive but Brexshitter is perfectly acceptable? Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM

I'm hearing anti semetic whistles about Corbyn over here. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM

"I'm hearing anti semetic whistles about Corbyn over here. ?"
As usual
It is now four years since leading members of the Muslim community in Britain pointed out that there was a serious problem of Islamophobia within the Tory Party - STILL FESTERING
Nothing has been done - not even an acknowledgement
That's how important this sort of thing is to the Guido Gobshites
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:41 PM

donuel, it's just offensive to me anyway, to refer to the word 'retard' as a form of abuse. it's offensive for a clear reason to anyone with any respect for folk with disabilities.

'brexshitter' doesn't bother me much, there has been plenty of such insults in this nasty wee squabble.

insults like 'betrayal' or traitor' are something else - they allow people to get very self-righteous and sometimes angry. having received physical threats myself for being a remoaner and a 'traitor' - i wish we could forget all about this brexit idea and go back to being civil to each other and to our neighbours.

as it is, our house goes on the market tomorrow and we hope to move somewhere where there is a more diverse community and less bad feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM

whatever.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W67Xppg434

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:39 AM

Three former Labour members have been arrested

note well: FORMER. Not Labour members, then.

Here is a cutting about it from the Independenat - March 28th, by the way, so a few weeks old.

"The Independent understands that the three suspects have been subject to disciplinary action by the Labour Party and are no longer members.

A Labour Party spokesperson said: "We welcome the police investigating these individuals’ alleged crimes. Antisemitism has no place in our society and we are committed to challenging and campaigning against it in all its forms."


So Labour took action, Exactly what you are demanding. Not that you acknowledge that, of course,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 04:55 AM

More Tory-Right-Wing Diversion Tactics. Brexshit a complete and utter balls up? “Look over there - Labour anti-semitism”. Tory Party ripping itself to pieces? “Look over there - Corbyn the terrorist’s friend”.

Utter horse-shit being spread by a bunch of desperate yesterday’s men and women.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 07:54 AM

And plank goes with yank...inchoate notions about 'im floating through my mind here, John... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 08:28 AM

Come to think of it, Steve, ‘plank’ is a bloody good description of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:11 PM

As predicted, it seems the NEC has decided to stay ambiguous over whether it will or will not support a confirmatory vote. I think this could easily put off a lot of the people who deliver leaflets, etc, so expect very little of that before the EU elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 19 - 04:10 AM

I like turnips!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 19 - 04:21 AM

Me too - preferably mashed! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 19 - 01:14 PM

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:45 AM

If people are influenced greatly by Brexit in local elections it would show how little they understand the UK system of governance. That the EU elections are all about Brexit is right, but not local elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 May 19 - 11:52 AM

The Brexit Party has continued its impressive rise, opening a nine point lead over the Labour Party and hitting 30% for the first time in YouGov’s latest European Election poll. All Remain parties other than the Lib Dems are falling. With their established ground operation and much higher recognition as a pro-Remain party, Vince Cable’s has-beens look set to beat upstarts Change UK on polling day.

UKIP won these elections in 2014 with just 26.6% of the vote, on a much lower turnout than expected this time around. Turns out people really don’t like having their democratic votes ignored…

Below a serious discussion of weighting before we have the usual contemptuous dismissal of yougov by the usual.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/faq-weighting

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:39 AM

Good to see that the bulk of the protest votes have gone to the pro-Europe Lib-Dem and Green parties. Maybe people are not as stupid as Farage thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:00 AM

Indeed, Dave. If you order the parties by attitude, then the hard Brexiteers of UKIP lost heavily in proportion to previously held seats, through the confused middle (which was down) to the pro-EU parties that did well.

However, I still maintain that it was inappropriate for a voter to pay too much attention to Brexit when deciding how to vote. In fact, despite what the press is suggesting, I think any glib assumption that the dissatisfaction with the government is all about Brexit rather than say austerity, Windrush, the wondrous incompetence of Grayling and the rest lacks evidence. That Brexit played a part is undeniable. How big a part is uncertain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:15 AM

However the view held by knowledgeable pundits differs.
"With less than half of council election results counted the Tories have already hemorrhaged more than 250 seats as the party was abandoned by voters furious about the state of Brexit. The party had already been braced for a tough night amid frustration at Prime Minister Theresa May's failure to take Britain out of the EU on March 29 as planned. But election guru Sir John Curtice declared voters had declared 'a plague on both your houses' as both the Conservatives and Labour took big hits in their heartlands in the South East and North respectively. Furious Brexit supporters took to social media to show they had spoiled their ballot papers to show their demand to leave the EU immediately (right). But the Lib Dems, a hardcore Remain party, made significant gains with some predictions they could add up to 5000 council seats."
      It hardly needs pointing out that a tactical protest vote went to the Libdems because that was the only way to hurt the main two parties.
and hurt them they did! To try to explain it in any other way portrays a staggering degree of political naivety.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:19 AM

Dennis Skinner's Bolsover council lost to Tories deep in the Labour heartland.

Labour Staffer: ‘Corbyn is Poison on the Doorstep’

The valiant Brxiteers are giving a pasting at the hustings.
The Brexit party has a 9% clear lead for the upcoming EU elections.

John McDonnell told LBC: “I am aiming for sort of about 400” seat gains. At the time of going to pixel Labour have actually lost seats on the night.(and the bloodletting is far from over.)

The silent majority are making their presence known!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:26 AM

Yes, by voting in droves for the Lib Dema and Greens, both pro remain parties. The remain fightback is on #nottakingthislyingdown #revokeandremain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 08:48 AM

BBC news 13:30 today

Tories down 600
Labour down 80
UKIP down 60

Libdem up 400
Green up 80

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:01 AM

There are several ways of displaying displeasure while polling:
1)Stay away and not vote.(a meaningless protest)
2)Deface the ballot paper (It registers as a protest vote but achieves zilch)
3)Vote for the third horse (This is very clearly what has happened)

If the Lib Dems regard it as a ringing endorsement of their policies have I got news for them. Needless to say members of the loony left are in complete denial of this self evident truth. But then they also argue leave did not win the referendum.
Gravity can bend light, socialists can bend truth!

This fits in well with a Corbynism:
'Stand in the middle of the road and you get run over in both directions': (poor lad has 80 tyre tracks and counting)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:40 AM

Vote for the third horse (This is very clearly what has happened)

Or if there are more than three horses, the one that most matches your wishes. So explain the UKIP losses again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:50 AM

To be fair, I imagine some of the UKIP votes went to independents, rather than the main parties.

But it still seems an intriguing way of thinking to reject parties that may or may not give you want you want to vote for the one party that will definitely not give you what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:55 AM

Does anyone know the percentage of support gained and lost? If I remember rightly UKIP only had about 100 seats so a loss of 80 is a more severe blow than Labours loss of 80 out of 6000 and odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 11:08 AM

If voting strategically to bloody the nose of Tory and Labour there is no point in voting for minority parties. It merely creates statistical noise. Going for the third runner hurts the other two, as the results testify. No further analysis is required.

Had it been a General Election the Brexit party would form the government. They did not participate in the council elections.

So far Tories lose 676 seats and Labour 91 with results in 162 of 248 councils in humbling backlash for both parties!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:48 PM

Almost 1000 Tory seats lost and UKIP all but wiped out of local government. A good day :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:13 PM

Tory net losses now top 1100.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:52 PM

Make that 1300

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:53 PM

I doubt many MPs will be smirking after this. If the EU elections go ahead the political map in the UK will be redrawn. The Tories have found Armageddon and the anticipated Labour gains of 400 have been a complete myth. But perhaps their worship of Janus was not. But being blinkered has its drawbacks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:03 PM

"Had it been a General Election the Brexit party would form the government."

In the kingdom of the amazingly bonkers, this is by far the most bonkers thing I've read in years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 19 - 01:36 PM

The Brexit Party continues to lead in the latest YouGov/Times European Parliament voting intention poll. Nigel Farage's new party holds 30% of the vote, having been on 28% in last week's survey. Labour find themselves with 21% of the vote (from 22%) while the Conservatives remain on just 13%.

Try looking forwards instead of backwards. These must be very confusing times for the left! Where to turn eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 19 - 02:39 PM

Generally mid term local council elections have tended to fsvour the opposition party. On this basis Labour would have had a reasonable expectation of hoovering up the 400 seats they anticipated winning. Instead they lost 87 seats and set a new record. It is not just the Tories received a justly deserved shellacking at the hustings but also Labour. UKIP very rightly lost wholesale. This is no surprise with Tommy Robinson on the ticket. This clearly demonstrates the projected split vote between UKIP and the Brexit party is no longer an issue. UKIP is toast.

This surely must be the end of Tereason May. The MEP elections ahould prove highl entertaining and the next general election will have most of Westminster clutching their P45's.

The stunning local council elections demonstrate very well that people did know what they were voting for in the referendum.and the hustings
have further driven the point home is an exceedingly painful manner for both parties. Lie to the electorate and the electorate will take it's pound of flesh.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 May 19 - 05:41 PM

Had it been a general election a party which did not field any candidates would form the government? Bizarre. As you know, and as has been explained, had it been a general election Labour would have formed a government with Lib Dem, SNP and Plaid support.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:03 AM

There is very little that is clear as a result of the local elections but I feel that Labour's approach of trying to paint everything as a Tory Brexit has failed. The poor Labour results say Labour is definitely being blamed as well. I think everyone in Labour's high command recognised coming out strongly pro-Brexit would lose a lot of votes, as would coming out strongly anti-Brexit. They thought then staying ambiguous would keep most on side especially if they could focus on what happens after Brexit.

To me, the results show you lose voters on all the paths and if you wish to stay ambiguous you can, but do so in the knowledge it could be even worse in terms of votes that either of the alternatives. People expect a party to decide what it wants and then to argue for it. Ambiguity costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:42 AM

As you know, and as has been explained, had it been a general election Labour would have formed a government with Lib Dem, SNP and Plaid support.

I do admire confidence, but when misplaced one must expect disappointment.

Let me give you John McDonnell as an example. He predicted Labour would GAIN 400 seats BEFORE crushing defeat and a loss of nearly 90 seats.


There is a difference between optimism, wishful thinking and sheer delusion. I leave you to tick the appropriate box.
If Corbyn thought he had any kind of support he would have called for a no confidence vote months ago.

As the illustrious Maggie would have said: "He was frit!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:16 AM

Maggie and Tommy - there's a match made in hell
Anybody who thinks Thatcher didn't take Britain to the brink of being an extremist right-wing state is living in their own head
Lord Snooty and Boris the Braindead stands to do the same now, with the chaos that Brexit has created
If Corbyn is to live up to his promises he needs to focus his attention on the wider picture and ditch the Labour Tories in his ranks - he certainly has the rank-and-file support to do so and I have little doubt that the British People have become so appalled at the Brexit Circus - they'd be insane not to

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-poll/britons-would-now-vote-to-stay-in-eu-want-second-referendum-poll-idUSKCN1P006O

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:16 AM

Maggie and Tommy - there's a match made in hell
Anybody who thinks Thatcher didn't take Britain to the brink of being an extremist right-wing state is living in their own head
Lord Snooty and Boris the Braindead stands to do the same now, with the chaos that Brexit has created
If Corbyn is to live up to his promises he needs to focus his attention on the wider picture and ditch the Labour Tories in his ranks - he certainly has the rank-and-file support to do so and I have little doubt that the British People have become so appalled at the Brexit Circus - they'd be insane not to

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-poll/britons-would-now-vote-to-stay-in-eu-want-second-referendum-poll-idUSKCN1P006O

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:07 AM

From Jim's link:

The survey by polling firm YouGov showed that if a referendum were held immediately, 46 percent would vote to remain, 39 percent would vote to leave, and the rest either did not know, would not vote, or refused to answer the question.

When the undecided and those who refused to answer were removed from the sample, the split was 54-46 in favor of remaining.
That is broadly in line with other polls in recent months which show a deeply divided electorate, in which opinion has swung towards remaining in the EU. The 2016 referendum voted 52 to 48 percent in favor of leaving.

So a YouGov poll showing a majority in favour of remain, this time. Unlike the YouGov polls showing such strength for the Brexit Party a day or two earlier.

This suggests there may well be something wrong with YouGov's methodology in conducting polls that deliver apparently conflicting answers. In particular, the public may be extremely sensitive to precisely how the question is phrased, and this is not being adequately taken account when preparing the poll questionaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:33 AM

Out of interest, I am on the YouGov list. I regularly submit poll responses but, to date, have not been asked about anything to do with brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 04:49 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:16 AM

ABUSE 10/10
CONSTRUCTIVE ARGUMENT 0/10

How very predictable!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:18 AM

There is always a problem with polls when the electorate is closely split. The results vary day by day and by their nature are inherently inaccurate. They generally consist of a small sample and the results are massaged in ways thought to be representative of the views of the majority. No one has the courage to define the error bar but I would suspect it could be around the 10% mark. Therefore all the polls are suspect.

The tories anticipated the loss of 500 seats
Labour anticipated a gain of 400 seats.

The reality was -1300 and -80 respectively and a massive vote of no confidence by the electorate for both parties.

The acid test will be the EU elections but I suspect a stitchup is in the offing between May and Corbyn to sell us out and prevent the forthcoming election.
The result will be neither fish nor foul!

It will be a enduring treaty creating more shackles and chains and loss of all seats at the top table. That is a result far far worse than simply remaining in the EU.

If polls were in any way accurate I would welcome an explanation as to why both parties received such a massive drubbing in the recent council elections. It simply does not compute!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:26 AM

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/camcalc_20170428_pollerror.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 May 19 - 08:47 AM

Neither May nor Corbyn will carry their parties if they try to deny us this democratic opportunity. I think that you and I would both demand that the elections take place, whilst hoping for radically different outcomes from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 19 - 09:34 AM

There are predictions that the EU vote will be conclusive. I suspect it will also be all things to all men. For example, one possible result would be

- Brexit Party the largest single party
- substantially more votes for remain parties in aggregate.
- because of the way the proportionality works, more or less the same number of MEPs for each viewpoint.

And if the meaning of that would be clear to you, I am afraid it would not be to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:08 PM

It is very clear that the recent council elections enabled the electorate to register their annoyance with the two main parties by causing both to lose a staggering number of seats. Another fact to take away from this is that the opposition party also registered severe losses instead of the gains to be expected from mid term elections.

If the MEP elections occur it is by no means certain how the protest will be registered. There will be a Brexit party standing and they are way ahead in the polls. The big unknown is to what extent the protest vote and Brexit popularity will translate into seats. I see no way of making a safe(accurate) prediction. It is also very difficult to be certain how much positions have changed since the referendum, if at all.
The changes in percentages from poll to poll are all within the error bar so trying to make any kind of reasonable prediction is a bit of a non starter.
I thunk it will have to be simply a wait and see exercise until the votes are counted. I hope brexit will wipe the board but this is by no means a certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:11 PM

DMcG, it would be clear to me. If there was more vote for remain parties, then remain we should. We can see off the Brexit party, their powerbase is a diminishing demographic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:39 PM

But of course to counter the fallacious argument above, of the largest demographic only a third are registered to vote. Apathy does not win or lose elections, it simply does not register!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 19 - 03:19 PM

That is certainly a rational view, David C. But we both know the press and others would be shouting "The Brexit Paery won and are being disrespected!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 19 - 07:50 PM

Allow me a moment of whimsy. We need an anti-brexit anthem and I think Pete Seeger had it in spades (for "big fool", read "brainless brexiteer")*:

Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking,
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on,
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy,
The big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy,
The big fool says to push on.
Waist deep, neck deep,
Soon even a tall man will be over his head.
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy,
And the big fool says to push on.

*...Or Theresa May if you like...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:32 AM

"YouGov " is a survey company set u[ by Tory Politicians - their findings in favour iif right-wing policies have been called into question on several occasions
Immaterial anyway, on something as basic as leaving the E.U., if there is th slightest doubt as to the present divide on the issue, it needs to be put to the people again
May's pathetic "further divide the country" is blatantly stupid - the people are sharply divided, as are the Government and the administrative Institutions
The cynical distrust of the Parliamentary system will be a running sore for years to come - such situations open the door to mob-rule Populism and extremist scapegoating - as was the Brexit decision in the first place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:47 AM

"YouGov " is a survey company set u[ by Tory Politicians - their findings in favour iif right-wing policies have been called into question on several occasions.

I repeat what I said earlier:(for those with the attention span of a gnat)
Below a serious discussion of weighting before we have the usual contemptuous dismissal of yougov by the usual.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/faq-weighting

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:53 AM

Says it all really!


https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f48f9073ea26838ed8257b556938c1cfbedaf26a4a8269e1e6e9647ee3bbfd2c.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:56 AM

And that sums up the problem with our politics, compared to the more grown up democracies of mainstream Europe, that a party can get 30% of the vote and claim they won, despite the other 70% holding a diametrically opposing view. They won't have won of course, firstly because it is a Europe wide election, and secondly because the electoral method is either D'Hondt or STV depending upon where you are, and not the primitive first past the post system used for Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:36 AM

not the primitive first past the post system used for Westminster.

I need no convincing of that. I was an early member of Charter 88 which amongst other things wanted a proportional voting system. Of course, when we had the AV referendum, the campaigns were a similar mass of falsehoods and ineptitude we have seen since.

Had we had STV, for example, it would have been quite straightforward for let us say the Conservatives to have two candidates in a ward, one pro-EU and one for leaving the EU. In a conservative dominated area a conservative one would still win, and it would be the one which best reflected the pro/anti view.

And that means we could have had - if it was what the country wanted - an anti-EU decision, where the majority of the MPs were of a similar view, and no need for a special referendum or the subsequent division of the country. Alternatively, the same ward could keep a Tory but vote out anti-Brexit views, if that was its opinion. All settled fairly amicably just by using a grown up voting system.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:42 AM

"I repeat what I said earlier:(for those with the attention span of a gnat)"
You've been warned about your abusive behaviour - and suspended for it before now
If you don't want it to happen again learn to control yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:55 AM

Matthew 7:5

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:24 AM

who did matthew beat 7-5? a turnip maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:31 AM

Matthews scored his 18th and final goal for Blackpool in a 4–1 league victory over Tottenham Hotspur

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:44 AM

Haven't solved it yet, Pete. It would have been Matthew 0-7 Liverpool or Matthew 7-0 Partick...or maybe I'm just being as thick as two short motes this morning...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:12 AM

"I'm just being as thick as two short motes this morning..."
Anybody who doesn;t bow down to Iain's pronouncements, (which come down directly from St Guido) is judged to have "the attention span of a gnat" - which is just about everybody here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:59 AM

I can't help feeling gnats are being slighted. I am not sure how you would measure it in the first place, but since the purpose of attention is surely to check if you can eat something or are about to be eaten, I suspect as a proportion of its lifetime a gnat probably spends a lot of time 'paying attention'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:22 AM

DMcG I an sure the gnats will get over it unlike those here that make a meal of playing at being a victim. Both the gnats and I find that unpalatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 19 - 11:22 AM

You're within a gnat's cock of the truth there, DMcG...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 02:02 PM

Anyway back to matters appertaining to Brexit:

Annunziata Rees-Mogg, a former Tory parliamentary candidate and sister of Jacob Rees-Mogg, hasn’t been far from the headlines since she appeared at the launch of the Brexit Party. Ms Rees-Mogg is now planning on fighting for the Peterborough seat vacated by Labour MP Fiona Onasanya. Ms Onasanya became the first parliamentarian in British history to be booted out of the Commons and stripped of her seat by a recall petition. The MP was jailed for lying to police about a driving offence.

The outcome of this election will give the pointy heads much to ruminate on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 19 - 02:26 PM

Which has nothing to do with brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:07 PM

A by election and a prospective parliamentary candidate for The Brexit party has nothing to do with Brexit?

What a quaint notion!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:11 PM

I'm a tad surprised that people have let pass the utter nonsense that has been posted on here regarding the results in the local elections.

How anyone can equate the Labour loss of 84 councillors,which is disappointing, to the catastrophic loss of 1330 Conservative councillors is amazing if only for the audacity.

Then to ignore the fact that UKip lost 145 of it's tiny 176 seats smacks of not only wearing blinkers but a eye patch and a blindfold as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:37 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:11 PM ...........
From your post it is obvious that trying to explain it all to you would be a wasted effort. Therefore I will not bother.

What you call nonsense is an interpretation repeated by pundits everywhere. The explanations are unassailable, hence no arguments
(apart from sparky, but he would argue with his own shadow)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:45 PM

Refer to my post of 03.11

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 19 - 02:59 AM

For my part, Raggy, I don't think it is sensible to regard the results for the two main parties comparable in a straightforward way, but they do have one core similarity: each is substantially worse than even pessimistic estimates beforehand. That does challenge each party to decide what to do about it. But the results do not make clear what that should be. It is a strong echo of the referendum where the majority of those who voted said 'Leave' without defining what that meant. This time they have said 'You can't carry on like this" while giving no clear message what should be done. A lot of leavers think the results show we must leave now, a lot of remainers think it means a confirmatory vote is essential. And most politicians just feel reinforced in whatever their opinion was already.

As I said below, my guess is that the EU elections will be the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:54 AM

Nigil Fargae under fire for alleged antisemitic tropes on far right US talk show

I hope those who condemn Labour continually for antisemitism will take as hard a line with Farage. Since they always reject defences like the phrase taken out of context, or used with a specific intent rather than Wider possible interpretations, I assume they will not attempt to excuse him that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 19 - 04:49 AM

In the six identified interviews, which date from 2009 to last year, Farage, whose Brexit party is leading polls for the upcoming European elections, repeatedly uses words and phrases such as “globalists” and “new world order”, which regularly feature in antisemitic ideas.

I think the Guardian will have to do better than the above. The mud slides off effortlessly.

The Dandy and Beano could have done a better job. Words like "the", "this" and "that" regularly feature in antisemitic ideas as well.

What utter nonsense!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:03 AM

In that article:

A spokesman for the Board of Deputies of British Jews said: "It is vital that our politicians distance themselves from conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists, including those who trade in antisemitic tropes. We would call on Nigel Farage to repudiate these ideas and to commit not to dignify oddball nasties like Alex Jones with his presence again."

====
You may dismiss it. They don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:38 AM

I think the spokesman for the Board of Deputies of British Jews is stepping well outside his remit to try to dictate what media a politician can be allowed on. He is stepping down a very dangerous authoritarian road and attempting to restrict freedom of speech.
I think he needs to offer a grovelling apology before he does his cause irreparable damage.
I suspect this issue will take wings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 19 - 06:22 AM

So you firmly support George Galloway's right to appear on Press TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:43 AM

Funny old world init? I wonder what the comments on here would have been if Corbyn had said those things instead of the nicotine stained toad. Still, it all goes to divert us from the shit that the Tories have dropped us in.

Anyone found any good forecasts about brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:55 AM

Yes, I agree we should not let this divert us from core Brexit issues. There is likely to be some sort of announcement/meaningless-verbiage today about the meeting between the Tories and Labour. I expect no progress with an attempt to blame Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 19 - 08:04 AM

"the nicotine stained toad."
How pathetic!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 May 19 - 09:47 AM

indeed! 'nicotine-stained man frog' has a much better tone. as does (who the f..k would support that) annoying wee spiv?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 May 19 - 12:38 PM

there's a very good article by john crace today about the annoying wee spiv. apologies again - does anyone have the technilogical know how to put the article on here. could be an interesting discussion piece - if the whole thing wasn't so depressing

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 May 19 - 07:37 PM

I am finding it so hard not to feed he troll

---

Keep up the effort. It is much easier to thin out the troll droppings when people don't answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 19 - 02:14 AM

Pete, instructions on making Clickable Links (‘Blue Clickies’) are in the ‘Technical Advice’ section of FAQs. Or, if it doesn’t click with you (see what I did there?), just post the link as text and others can copy and paste it into their browser’s search box.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Sauce for the goose and all that! More tropes from a proper newspaper.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/01/jewish-labour-activists-call-jeremy-corbyn-quit-heendorsed-book/

No doubt young Jeremy will heed Abe Lincoln's advice:

"It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, -- than to open it and remove all doubt."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:41 PM

the referndum was advisory only and apparantly in viewof this had to have a two thirds majority that was the legal position so all this stuff about democracy is inaccurate, iains please check this, alot of people were misled

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 19 - 03:49 PM

Things are coming home to roost for the misleader general

Date set for court case which could prosecute Boris Johnson over £350 million EU lie

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:20 PM

a briefing paper 07212 was sent to all mps it said.. section 5 .the referendum was advisory it does not bind parliament or the government to act on it
section 6 says if there were any suggestion WHATSOEVER that there would be a change, such as leaving the EU A MAJOR CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE would involve A CHANGE IN THE RIGHTS OF THE CITIZENS OF THE UK then a super majority would be required, this document was sent in advance of the debate in 2015.
Iwas talking about this right at the beginning, but no one took any notice

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 19 - 06:29 PM

Having read the briefing paper 07212
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7212/CBP-7212.pdf

I draw your attention to the section highlighted in red. The legislation contained no mention of a threshold. As the referendum was "advisory" there was no necessity, it was to be treated as indicative.
Had it been as you suggest the newspapers would have been on the case like rats up a drainpipe.

The Bill does not propose a threshold for the referendum. The only referendums held in the UK where a threshold has operated were the polls in Scotland and Wales in 1978 on the question of devolution.65
Discussion of the need for some form of threshold usually arises in the context of ensuring the legitimacy and acceptance of the outcome of a referendum. Certain states require constitutional change to be validated by a special majority in a referendum. This incorporates the idea that major constitutional change is something more important than the result of ordinary elections, and therefore should be the outcome of something more than a simple plurality of the votes. The UK does not have a comprehensive written constitution and so any requirement for a threshold has to be included in the individual referendum legislation. Standard Note 2809 Thresholds in Referendums gives further details and provides comparative examples of the use of thresholds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:17 AM

I detect some confusion about what a lie is and is not. Being wrong is not a lie. Nigel repeatedly said we would be leaving on March 29th but he said it in good faith. It turned out not to be true, but that does mean it was a lie, just false. Equally, when Teresa May said it - at least to begin with - it was said in good faith and so mistaken, but not a lie.

Thomas Aquinas back in the middle ages said that the essential characteristic of a lie was the intention to deceive, and in my book that is right: it is about deception, not whether something is true or not. So arguably if Teresa May continued to say we would leave on March 29th after she knew we couldn't that would be a lie, but while it was said in good faith it was not.

So it boils down to whether Boris' references to the £350m were believed to be an accurate representation of the benefits or were intended to mislead. In my opinion, it was intended to mislead. In short, a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:21 AM

Sorry, I should have said "but that does not mean it was a lie"

That was a particularly unfortunate word to omit. My apologies, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 08:06 AM

Labour's election manifesto is available here, and it makes very strange reading. It is all about what it has achieved in the EU and what its MEPs will be working for, while at the same time Corbyn says during the launch of the manifesto in a Q&A session:

====
Q: You say leave or remain are unhelpful labels. But many in your party want it to be a remain party? Is it definitely a leave party? Or could it be a remain party?
Corbyn says he fought the referendum on a remain and reform programme. But leave won.
He summarises the sort of Brexit he wants. And he says the Labour manifesto includes the option of a public vote.
====
Getting the Brexit he wants is still Brexit (even if some call it BRINO), so much of what is written in the manifesto saying what the MEPs would be doing evaporates.

The manifesto is written on the assumption we are leaving. For example, "Labour will campaign to secure the continued access to vital databases, which have helped take criminals off our streets and in the fight against terrorism" only makes sense if you have left: if we remained we would have that access.

I for one could not vote for Labour in the upcoming EU elections on the basis of this manifesto. However, I very much doubt if confirmed Leavers will either. I anticipate much of Labour's anticipated vote will move to other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 19 - 11:31 AM

I’ve just completed my Postal Vote form. I was rather surprised to see that UKIP and the Brexit Party are fielding candidates - in view of their oft-repeated lie that the EU is run by ‘unelected bureaucrats’, I was under the distinct impression that they had no idea whatsoever that there was an electoral process, or that there were such people as elected MEPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:15 PM

Election communication from the Brexit party received today. Large, rather distorted photo of Farage on it. It caused a terrible, apocalyptic raging row in our house. She wanted to burn it, I wanted to w*pe my b*tt*m with that image. Dammit. She won. The paper was a bit coarse anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:17 PM

The third way is to do both. But please consider the order carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:24 PM

THE REFERNDUM WAS ADVISORY NOT LEGALLY BINDING ,iains please note

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 19 - 05:02 PM

Annunziata Rees-Mogg {{spit}} was standing for Farage’s BrexShit Party in our constituency. I desperately wanted to write an appropriate comment against the BrexShit Party box but, of course, that would have resulted in a ‘spoiled ballot-paper’ and my actual vote would be invalidated, so I resisted. It was a close-run thing though...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:54 AM

rather distorted photo of Farage

How can you tell it was distorted? Did it make him look human? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 04:31 AM

I did enjoy question time last night.

It was more like a party political broadcast for the Brexit Party.

I can't wait for the EU elections. I might actually celebrate with my first beer in several years.

The lefties cannot attack the message so resort to their usual trick of attacking the messenger. Meanwhile the tide is turning! Brexit 30% and rising.

and below is a jolly tune to sing along to. Just substitute brexit for water!

How high is brexit Momma

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:26 AM

Farage was shouty, rude, loud, crude and thuggish all the way through the programme. To hear him burbling on about "democracy" towards the end was positively risible. No light and all heat, the kind of steamy heat that emanates from a pile of fresh manure. Naturally, his braying, brain-dead disciples in the audience made the crowd calling for Barabbas over Jesus sound like a Women's Institute prayer meeting. Fiona is weak and arbitrary. She has to go, otherwise the programme is doomed. The icing on the cake was the UKIP bloke on Andrew Neil's programme defending Tommy Robinson. Thank God for those two epic nights of football earlier in the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 05:58 AM

From late last year but, seeing as he has been mentioned, still worth a mention

Revealed: the hidden global network behind Tommy Robinson

He is a more obvious crook than the man toad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:02 AM

From a friend's Facebook page

"Today, on the impartial BBC News, we ask: are the far right really, actually racist, and when will terrorist-fellating anti-semite Jeremy Corbyn admit that he is in fact the reincarnation of Joseph Stalin? Over to our panel, consisting of Nigel Farage in his 58th BBC interview this week, Anne Widdecombe, a frantically masturbating colobus monkey, Enoch Powell's head in a jar and, to represent the Left, Margaret Hodge."

Thanks Simon :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 06:35 AM

At a recent Farage rally it is reported that there were chants of "Lock her up" directed at Teresa May.

At least in the case of Hilary Clinton there was a possible law being broken, roughly equivalent to our Official Secrets Act.   There is no law whatever that May is being accused of breaking. A mob calling for people to be imprisoned when they have broken no law does not sound to me as if rational argument will have any effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:24 AM

At a recent Farage rally it is reported that there were chants of "Lock her up" directed at Teresa May.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, 60 years ago May would have been tarred with the same brush as Philby Burgess and the rest of the Cambridge spies. ie. Treachery

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:38 AM

You claim May is passing state secrets to the Russians? In contravention of the Official Secrets Act? I.e. an actual law is being broken?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:41 AM

You should know better by now DMcG! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 07:43 AM

I know, I know, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 08:12 AM

I'll put it down to a kind heart, McG :-)

Moving on - best man toad article yet

Next episode of BBC Question Time to just be an hour of Nigel Farage masturbating

Always thought his followers were wankers. Maybe he is setting an example :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:09 AM

From Dave's link. A spoof maybe, but these extracts are all perfectly accurate:

"Nigel Farage – armed with about as many facts as you'd find in a Harry Potter novel – interrupted, harangued and blustered his way through the entire show, cheered on by a xenophobic section of the audience...

..."It was truly wonderful to see Nigel talk over Fiona Bruce, contradict himself and tell demonstrable lies on national television.

"I mean, the way he claimed that the UK is simultaneously losing jobs to low-skilled immigrants and also depriving other countries of highly-skilled immigrants – brilliant! How Farage attempts to mask his racism beneath a rhetoric of border control is masterful.

"And then there was the WTO question from the audience. Unable to answer, Farage spouted ill-informed nonsense about trade deals which demonstrated his sheer desperation to leave the EU at any cost to the British people."

Spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:15 AM

Is Theresa May guilty of treason? Plenty of readers think so. Politicians would be wise to listen up


almost a year ago

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/07/11/theresa-may-guilty-treason-plenty-readers-think-politicians/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:44 AM

”Is Theresa May guilty of treason? Plenty of readers think so.”

And a perfect illustration of the reason why we have highly-trained lawyers and judges to debate, and make decisions on, questions of law in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:06 AM

and the ballot box for when we disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:13 AM

John, I am disappointed in you :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 19 - 11:05 AM

"trason"
This is the braindead who considers criticism of elected politicians "Anglophobic"
Why is anybody even bothering responding to this ultra-extremist nonsense ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:21 PM

Now back to important matters concerning Brexit:

"THERESA MAY has lost the support of one of the Tory party’s most prominent financial backers to Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party following her failure to leave the EU on time.
The Conservative Party is on track for an “absolute mauling” and Labour is braced for huge losses in the EU elections as the Brexit crisis looks set to change the political landscape of the UK, a recent poll has found.

Brexit will rip support from the UK’s major parties as disillusioned parties turn to Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party in the May 23 elections in in protest against Theresa May’s handling of the UK’s exit from the EU.

Anand Menon, director of think-tank The UK in a Changing Europe, said Theresa May’s ruling government would not call an early election while the UK remains in the EU because they are expecting an “absolute mauling”.

In response to Mr Tusk's claim that there is a 30 percent chance Brexit will be cancelled, a Government spokesman said: "The British people voted to leave the EU in the biggest democratic exercise in our history and the government is focused on delivering that result.

“MPs have already voted on a second referendum a number of times and rejected it."

Both Labour and Conservatives will pay a heavy price for trapping us in the twilight zone!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:24 PM

At least in the case of Hilary Clinton there was a possible law being broken,

Nope. And it's Hillary. It was never was the case of a law being broken, just GOP and Trump bullshit to try to influence the election. And two years after the election he still feels the need to fight that fight, probably to try to justify the lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 19 - 12:30 PM

It’s hilarious seeing people queueing up to join, and vote for, the party of the person who, when the Referendum result became known, shat his nether-garments and ran for the hills - too much of a coward to actually take responsibility for the delivery of that which his lies had brought to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 19 - 01:57 PM

Nope. And it's Hillary. It was never was the case of a law being broken

Thanks for the correction, SRS. (Though by my typing standards having the name recognisable at all is a bonus *smile*)

You are closer to the US side than I am, of course, so obviously I will defer to you. But while I am clear no law was broken, wasn't there an accusation of a law being broken? Which there isn't with May.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 10 May 19 - 03:25 PM

wasn't there an accusation of a law being broken

That accusation and dozens more - all repeatedly proven groundless.

Unlike the documented cases of the law being broken by Trump and his acolytes.

The Republicans are now the party of utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 May 19 - 08:29 PM

My wife deals with over 200 federal emails per day. Hillary had over 500.
Mrs. Clinton WAS GUILTY of breaking a guideline, not a law or statute, not a grandfathered law, not even an official federal policy.

She was grilled by a republican congressional committee for an actual 12 hours until her voice gave out. It amounted to the same result as Bengasi, nothing.


If Trump had been successful in jailing Hillary, other Trump opponents and the Democratic Party could have been criminalized by now.
Instead you can visit some of his cabinet in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 19 - 02:27 AM

This thread os risking getting onto Trump and Hillary, rather than keeping with Brexit. All I intended to say is that Farage rallies appear to be using exactly the same techniques as Trump's did. Whether the UK cries of "Lock her up!" were simply aping Trump or were heartfelt as they certainly were at Trump's rallies I can't say, not having been at either. But both were meaningless unfounded emotional manipulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Now for some facts about brexit:
A poll of polls showed that more than half of voters who backed the Conservatives in the 2017 general election now intend to vote for the Brexit Party.
        The analysis indicates that the Conservatives are on course in this month’s European Parliament elections for the lowest share in history for the governing party in any national vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 May 19 - 06:14 AM

Conservatives are worried they might come sixth in the European Elections. Why so high? Given that their headbangers have deserted to the Brexit party or UKIP, the more reasonable among them will go with either Change UK or the Lib Dems, Scottish and Welsh to SNP or Plaid, even if lifelong Tories cannot vote Labour, there is loads of choice. And its not meaningless as a FPTP election would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 19 - 06:29 AM

Why so high?

Ask the Financial Times. They wrote the article!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 19 - 08:59 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:17 AM

I detect some confusion about what a lie is and is not. Being wrong is not a lie. Nigel repeatedly said we would be leaving on March 29th but he said it in good faith. It turned out not to be true, but that does mean it was a lie, just false. Equally, when Teresa May said it - at least to begin with - it was said in good faith and so mistaken, but not a lie.

Ah, that old story again.
Assuming that I am the ´Nigel´ referred to, do you not recall checking the basis of your claim, and finding that I hadn´t actually used the claim you attributed to me?
If it´s too much trouble I´ve scrolled back, and it´s in your earlier statement:
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:07 AM

Nigel and I have been comparing predictions, which I summarised as

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing.


Since it is now 1st April, I thought I would check up where we were. I think we will all agree that my half was right: we are still trying to decide what to do. However, it turns out I don't have Nigel's prediction quite right. What he said was:

====
Subject: RE: BS: Predictions for the coming new year
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:46 PM

UK will leave EU on WTO terms.

I´m still hoping that my prediction will be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 19 - 09:14 AM

We have reached a point where we can not stomach our vices or its cure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 19 - 10:21 AM

As I was emphasing the difference between being mistaken and lying, and said you were NOT lying, that is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think, Nigel? The date was implicit because no one was talking about any other date at the time. I acknowledged I knew of no post where you had explicitly said it and am happy to do so again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 19 - 01:08 PM

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 34% (+6)
LAB: 21% (-7)
LDEM: 12% (+5)
CON: 11% (-3)
GRN: 8% (+2)
UKIP: 4% (+1)
CHUK: 3% (-4)

Looks like the village idiots have a clear lead, and in a democracy no IQ test is required for voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 03:10 AM

Evidence, if any were needed, of what BREXIT IS ALL ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 19 - 03:47 AM

That a lot of Brexit supporters are prepared to vote for the Brexit Party in the EU election is no surprise. However, that it seems a lot of them might be prepared to vote for it in a general election when, apart from a hard Brexit, it has not yet published any policies at all does give the 'village idiot' epithet credence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 04:21 AM

"'village idiot' epithet credence."
Self identification Mac
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 19 - 04:23 AM

Why have a link entitled "What Brexit is all about" that merely discusses upcoming EU elections?

We all know that Brexit now is all about reclaiming democracy from parliament. It is no longer merely Brexit that people are voting for.

I would say Farage has far more chance of becoming PM than steptoe senior and with each successive poll support grows for the Brexit party. Very very dramatic implications for the future of UK politics seeing as the party was only created weeks ago.
A clear reaction to Parliament defying the will of the people. The conclusion is undeniable!

The present numbers beat Labour and Conservative combined and that still leaves the tactical voting for the libdems looking for a useful home in order to further smite the two parties defying the electorate.

The EU elections will definitely create a "popcorn" evening of entertainment when the results come in. The subsequent wailing and gnashing of teeth will be a joy to behold!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 19 - 05:40 AM

Tony Blair SQUIRMS when shown Farage's COLOSSAL lead - 'No one WANTS second vote'
TONY BLAIR was left squirming on Sky News this morning when he was forced to confront the scale of the Brexit Party’s lead in the latest Euro election polls - and consequently face the reality that people “don’t” want a second referendum after all.

Spiffing news!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 06:06 AM

"What Brexit is all about" that merely discusses upcoming EU elections?"
Brexit opened the door to a massive rise in fascism - inevitable, as it was based on racism in the first place
I ton't expect to hear too loud shrieks of protest from Israeli supporters as the first family of French Antisemitism comes into its own - much easier to target The Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 19 - 06:55 AM

Headline seen today:

Nigel Farage is the greatest comeback since Lazarus and May is responsible!

Not only that but he is likely to lead us to the promised land!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 19 - 07:38 AM

What a short memory people have got

Does Nigel Farage Tell Lies? Yes, Here's Five Of Them

Even more worrying

Farage and the manifesto of lies

And I've posted this before but for a bit of light relief

(I'm Gonna Tell) 500 Lies

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 19 - 08:14 AM

A REMINDER OF WHAT FARAGE'S BREXIT WAS ABOUT

As the songs says - "If hey come for me in the morning, they'll come for you in the afternoon"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 19 - 11:36 AM

The frightening thing about all this is, out of them all, May is a 'moderate'
The Conservative Party has been hovering on the brink of fascism since the heady days of Powell's 'Rivers of Blood', followed later by Thatcher's climbing into bed with Pinochet
Now you have Boris of Very Little Brain and Lord Snooty waiting in the wings
The somewhat limp-wristed Toryism of our own Nigel, with its willingness to let slide what is happening in their Party is a prime example of moderate Toryism.
Fuhrer Farage doesn't bear thinking about - but it needs to be
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 May 19 - 11:56 AM

tories have never had the bottle or ability to stand up to the even further right in their own party and the way they dealt with the nutters and fascists around ukip and beyond was nothing short of appeasement. sadly, the labour party are equally clueless in dealing with the thoroughly nasty extremists in the tory party and their loud and aggressive friends who find farage a bit wet these days. it's all very scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 May 19 - 11:56 AM

Richard Epstein is not "a respected academic". His affiliation is given as "New York University", which you might think was a major academic institution in New York, but it isn't, the main universities in New York are the State University of New York, the City University of New York, and Cornell University and Columbia University, which are of course Ivy League, and the most prestigious. New York University is a "Non-Sectarian Private College".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 May 19 - 12:30 PM

There was a beautiful moment on Politics Live today. Lord Adonis was there to promote a second referendum. You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again" sort of thing. In a subsequent subject, a Labour Council ignored residents requests to restore a public clock. At the last election the council became independent and the clock was restored. One of the panelists criticised Labour for not listening to the voters. Lord Adonis, who is a Labour peer, praised how Labour always listens to the voters. I'm surprised the rest of the panel didn't fall of their seats laughing. "You got the first vote wrong so do it again".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 19 - 12:40 PM

Jon Crace report on a Brexit Party event

Crace normal writes tongue in cheek critiques of ministers. There is no attempt at humour in this. And even Iains will agree with tha last sentence of the article (ie excluding the generic postscript)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 19 - 01:21 PM

@ DMcG   I assume you mean (And Westminster ought to be s**t-scared.)

Indeed they should. To run with the hares and hunt with the hounds will always end in tears.

Cameron said the people must decide. They did with a referendum!
Article 50 was passed with a huge majority.
A General Election was called with both parties advocating leave as the mainstay of their ticket.

Since that time a majority in the house have tried to frustrate brexit and destroy democracy.

Both leavers and remainers feel very strongly that Parliament is willfully denying the wishes of the electorate. As recent polls show very clearly the backlash against the two main parties is gathering strength daily. It has now gone beyond simply brexit and the behaviour of both Labour and the Tories is regarded as an affront to democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 May 19 - 01:39 PM

Parliament represents the interests of the electorate, not their wishes, and definitely not the wishes of an electorate three years ago, wilfully misinformed by the leave supporting politicians and the sewer press. Parliament has enough data, from the scenario assessments carried out by the government themselves (but hidden in so far as they can) to work out that remaining in the EU is in the best interests of the majority. So remain they should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 19 - 01:48 PM

A reminder of what Thatcher was being defensive about
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

THATCHER'S TAKE ON DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 19 - 02:16 PM

As I was emphasing the difference between being mistaken and lying, and said you were NOT lying, that is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think, Nigel?
Whether you were claiming I was lying, or that I was mistaken, is beside the point, as you were referring to a statement which I never made.
That is an excellent example of a straw man fallacy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 19 - 02:45 PM

Well, think that if you like, Nigel. But for example you said

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 14 Nov 18 - 06:12 AM

Yep,
Accept that we are never going to reach an agreed settlement with the EU, and use the remaining 4 months to plan for leaving on WTO terms.


Four months after November 2018? Ah yes, the end of March 2019. It is no great leap to believe your statement of 23 December, about 4 weeks later, was referring to the same date. And then, a little while later (12 Jan 2019) I also suggested your prediction was for that date, and whether you overlooked that post or chose not to reply, you did not correct me then.

So while I say for the third time I accept you did not explicitly give both halves of the prediction at the same time, you did tie leaving on WTO rules and the date together a few weeks earlier, so it is not unreasonable to consider you still had that date in mind for the prediction. Certainly, you gave not the slightest hint against it.

That's all I have to say on this. Shall we agree to move onto actual events to do with Brexit, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 May 19 - 03:35 PM

There was a beautiful moment on Politics Live today. Lord Adonis was there to promote a second referendum. You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again" sort of thing. In a subsequent subject, a Labour Council ignored residents requests to restore a public clock. At the last election the council became independent and the clock was restored. One of the panelists criticised Labour for not listening to the voters. Lord Adonis, who is a Labour peer, praised how Labour always listens to the voters. I'm surprised the rest of the panel didn't fall of their seats laughing. "You got the first vote wrong so do it again".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 19 - 03:22 AM

It seems Olly Robbins is off to Brussels again today about "how the broad outline of the future arrangement between the EU and the UK could be changed if there were to be some kind of deal" (in the words of Laura Kuenssberg.)

The future arrangements are defined by the political declaration attached to the Withdrawal Agreement and are not legally binding. That would not matter so much if both sides committed to them in good faith. But since the UK side has possible May replacements who openly declare they do not agree with what it says, it is hard to see the value of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:54 AM

To call it a deal is a misnomer. It is a treaty loosely labelled a Withdrawal Agreement comprising 585 pages.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 06:59 AM

"You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again"
No - we mean "we voted for this without being given any game plan for the future - now that we know what is likely to happen - and is already happening (like the financiers and promoters of Brexit tripping over themselves to put their investments in a safer place than a Brexited Britain) we would like an opportunity to confirm the decision"
Great that those with the money can change their minds, but the voters are not given a chance to.
Leaving Europe,as things stand, is comparable to a had-done-by teenager declaring they are leaving home
As many of them end up on the streets, there's a valuable lesson to le learned there.
I don't expect for one moment that Stan the Man will respond to any of this - much more comfortable not to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 07:25 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: Leaving Europe,as things stand, is comparable to a had-done-by teenager declaring they are leaving home
As many of them end up on the streets, there's a valuable lesson to le learned there.

More merriment! To extend your analogy the hard done by teenagers are the second largest financial contributor in a household of twenty seven. Something like 87% of UK businesses do NOT trade with the EU. They will keep on trading whatever happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 19 - 08:31 AM

Even if it is true that 87% businesses do not trade with the EU, it does not follow that they do not depend on EU trade. Many of them have customers who can only afford to buy their goods/services because they are employed by businesses that do trade with the EU, or the 87% may buy products from wholesalers who trade with the EU.   It is a statistic that is easily misunderstood by the unwary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 09:45 AM

DMcG wrote: Many of them have customers who can only afford to buy their goods/services because they are employed by businesses that do trade with the EU, or the 87% may buy products from wholesalers who trade with the EU.

A fair point, and one of which I was not unaware. I was sort of hoping that JC would make that point and I could then point out that he said Britain no longer has any industry. Ho hum.

Untangling ourselves from the EU was always likely to have a cost. What you, I or anyone else, can predict is the cost that we will incur if we do not extricate ourselves from what I see as a sinking ship. It's not just leaving that will cost us. Staying could cost us a lot more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:08 AM

It's not just leaving that will cost us. Staying could cost us a lot more.

We know what leaving will cost us and it is not just financial. The cost of staying will be the same as it is now. Anything else is just speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:18 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: The cost of staying will be the same as it is now. Anything else is just speculation.

Saying that is also speculation. You speculate that the EU is not a sinking ship. I don't. However, even If the ship is not about to sink, The EU costs us every year. If we stay in long enough it must eventually cost us more than leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:26 AM

Any rise in 'Leave' is obviously being brought about by battle-fatigue - there are no advantages to leaving as requests for examples here have shown over and over again
If Dyson and Lord Snooty sprint off and stick their money elsewhere that is either a sign that they are aware of the damage being done or a shoddy grasp of investment

A SIGN OF THE TIMES

Seems far more cleared than following the lemmings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:43 AM

The EU costs us every year. If we stay in long enough it must eventually cost us more than leaving.

That does not follow. The cost/benefit in terms of trade are recurring and the costs of leaving you are referring to are off-off. It is certainly possible that we cannot negotiate as good a trade deal with a major player as we have through the EU - and I think we must all agree that our negotiation skills so far have not been brilliant - in which case we would make a nominal loss every year, rather than the nominal improvement that would be needed to clear the 'cost of leaving.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:43 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 May 19 - 06:59 AM

"You know."You got the first vote wrong so do it again"
No - we mean "we voted for this without being given any game plan for the future - now that we know what is likely to happen - and is already happening (like the financiers and promoters of Brexit tripping over themselves to put their investments in a safer place than a Brexited Britain) we would like an opportunity to confirm the decision"

It can be difficult finding the meaning in some posts, but, assuming that the we shown above means "people including me(the writer)", does that mean that Jim voted Brexit? If not, how does he know what we mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 12:31 PM

" "people including me(the writer)","
Does it matter Nigel ?
The principle of allowing anybody to re-vote when certain facts are revealed that were not available previously is basic democracy and simple common sense
Only lemmings plough on regardless as they watch their mates fall to their deaths
It makes little difference to me personally - Ireland will remain in Europe and, if it becomes necessary, I will dig up my family history and become an Irish citizenship
Sanron, fr some odd reason, mentions the level of investment in Europe, as if it had anything to do with whart is being discussed here
Brexit has already destabilised the British Economy and is hurting large numbers of British people - the warning from the economists that Brexit would make it impossible to plan for at least 20 years has already become an widely accepted fact

Lord Snooty has moved his money to Ireland and arch Brexiteer Dyson has shifted his to Singapore - pity Britain isn't fitted with the discs I used to see on ships cables to control the movement of rats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 01:32 PM

I had a stunning conversation with a cabbage earlier in the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 19 - 01:41 PM

Didn’t know that cabbages and turnips speak the same language...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 01:42 PM

I'm still having one
No matter how obediently you people choose to doff your caps, the fact remains that these bastards have pushed Britain into destabilisation and pissed off while the people are not even given the opportunity to back out now the crassness of Brexit has become obvious
Amazing what money can buy - innit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 02:32 PM

"Didn’t know that cabbages and turnips speak the same language..."
You've been talking to 'is 'ighness Chas again, haven't you ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 May 19 - 02:42 PM

Brexit has already destabilised the British Economy and is hurting large numbers of British people - the warning from the economists that Brexit would make it impossible to plan for at least 20 years has already become an widely accepted fact
Brexit hasn't happened, so it cannot have destabilised anything. Fear brought on by the result of the referendum may have, but that is not the same thing.
More 'Project Fear'.
Is it worth pointing out that a supposition is not the same as a fact?
Or that the term 'widely accepted fact' is one only used by those who don't understand the word 'fact'?
A fact is something that is true. It is not something for which the validity changes depending on how widely it is accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 02:57 PM

"Brexit hasn't happened, so it cannot have destabilised anything. "
The decision to leave Europe set in motion shock waves that made it obvious that things could only get worse
You start to leave when you head for the door, not when you shut it behind you Nigel
These are no longer 'predictions'
Why will you people not admit that it will take at least a decade to put right the damage that has already been done - that's if things don't get any worse
You want facts - go talk to the employers of Bombardier, all all the other firms that have done a runner
Thhe sick thing about all this is that Britain bunged the sectarian Party that is steering Northern Ireland out of Europe despite the hardship being experienced by the Northern Irish people - money and bigotry - a killer combination
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 03:47 PM

The claim:
The decision to leave Europe set in motion shock waves that made it obvious that things could only get worse

The reality:
New figures released by the ONS this morning reveal that wages continued to rise above inflation from January to March, despite the quarter having been expected to end with the UK leaving the EU. Excluding bonuses, employees have seen wages rise by 3.3%, an inflation adjusted rise of 1.5% compared with a year earlier…

Meanwhile the UK employment rate was estimated at 76.1% rising from last year’s 75.6% and the joint-highest figure ever recorded. Unemployment has continued to fall, now at 3.8% it’s the lowest this country has seen since 1974. All despite Brexit…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:05 PM

Urtter out of Context bollocks
British industry has already been set back several years w=ith shits like Dyson and teh rest elsewhere taing their work elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:40 PM

Strange things figures.

Employment rate 76.1%
Unemployment rate 3.8%

Now to me that's a total of 79.9%

So are the other 20.1% unemployed but not receiving benefits, do they exist at all, are they figures of someone imagination.

I suspect it's the former of those options.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:51 PM

UK wages rise again as employment rate stays at record high says ...
City A.M.-12 hours ago
... employment rate stays at record high says Office for National Statistics ... year when adjusting for inflation, the Office for National Statistics said today. ... when you could hire an extra worker and get broadly the same result?”.
Unemployment falls by 65000 but millions of workers remain in poverty
The Independent-10 hours ago
UK unemployment rate hits 45-year low
FRANCE 24-9 hours ago
UK employment remains at record high
Moneywise Magazine-8 hours ago
British unemployment rate hits 45-year low

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 May 19 - 05:25 PM

Raggytash wrote: So are the other 20.1% unemployed but not receiving benefits, do they exist at all, are they figures of someone imagination.

Raggytash, I'm 72 years old. I'm not employed. I'm not unemployed. I'm retired. Take everyone between the ages of 0 and 15 years old. They are not unemployed and they are not employed. They are too young. Do you think that underaged and retired do not add up to 20.1%. What about the ladies who don't work but manage the house, do the laundrey and look after the kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 19 - 06:06 PM

Stanron, you are not included in the figures. It's as simple as that. You are past retirement age.

Children are not included in the figures because they haven't reached the age were they can, legally, be employed.

As for your suggestion that women are too occupied cleaning, washing and ironing etc betrays your age.

May I remind you we are living in the 21st Century ............ although some people of here seem to consider we still live in the Victorian era.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:35 AM

Where are all these people who are losing their jobs as firms close down suddenly managing to find them - Sainsburys hasn't got that many shelves needing stacking

We find that Brexit has been an important source of uncertainty for many UK businesses. We estimate that this led to a 6% reduction in investment in the first two years after the referendum, with employment also around 1.5% lower. And Brexit is likely to reduce future UK productivity by around half a percentage point via a batting average effect of output being reallocated away from higher productivity firms toward lower productivity ones. The majority of businesses anticipate that Brexit will eventually reduce sales and increase costs.
DETAILED BUSINESS STUDY HERE

THIS CONTINUES TO BE THE TREND IN BRITAIN

All this is a diversion anyway
'Patriots' like Dyson and Rees Mogg have advocated for and are pushing through Brexit while, having realised the realities of the above statements, have removed their money from Britain and have put it in a safer place
Those who are worst affected have no option but to bite the bullet and bear the brunt of the negative effects
It should be their right to confirm they wish to do so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:23 AM

Nuts in May

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:18 AM

Good intelligent answer Stan - for a Tory
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:32 AM

very little point in trying to make a factual statement if the entire argument is predicated on "We estimate"

While accepting the Nobel prize for economics, Friedrich Hayek made an astonishing admission. Not only were economists unsure about their predictions, he noted, but their tendency to present their findings with the certainty of the language of science was misleading and “may have deplorable effects”.

Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:50 AM

You know we are having EU elections later this month to elect those so called unelected bureaucrats that run our economy? Can anyone tell me when the next WTO elections are?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:51 AM

Oh, and 2000!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:59 AM

The Brexit Party has today passed its goal of 100,000 people having signed up as registered supporters of the party, paying £25 each. That’s £2,500,000 raised in small donations in the course of just four weeks since the party launched. Expect the 100,000 members figure to be officially confirmed later today. Meanwhile Change UK have refused to reveal any information about donations they have received over the last two months…

The Tory Party last month revealed it has reached 150,000 members for the first time in almost a decade, but then promptly complained about it. If the Brexit Party continue their trajectory they’ll overtake the Tories in just over two weeks…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:27 AM

Very little point in discussing facts with someone who describes a report which is headed "Brexit is Already Affecting Britain as "We Estimate"
The facts stand - Businessmen like arch Brexiteer, Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner, leaving those with no alternative to face the consequences
It seems Stanton has opted for sneering and pissed off along with Nigel

"Friedrich Hayek" died in 1950 - a fine source of information on 21st century economists - pity he didn't quote Jeremy Bentham - most people have heard of him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:58 AM

We find that Brexit has been an important source of uncertainty for many UK businesses We estimate that this led to a 6% reduction in investment in the first two years after the referendum, .................
Estimates are estimates, facts are facts, LIES are lies (as below)
Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner
Care to explain how Dyson is the third largest individual taxpayer in the UK?

or will you simply agitate to have my post deleted as when facts become uncomfortable for remainiacs?

Never mind! Delete for all you are worth. The upcoming elections will demonstrate the unambiguous truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:34 AM

"Care to explain how Dyson is the third largest individual taxpayer in the UK?"
Care to explain how his opissing off with his jobs has helped Britain in its time of need ?
No? - thought not!!
He has made his money out of Britain and has quite rightly, paid his taxes - as any other British citizen should - why should he be special for having done what he is obliged to do by law ?
Now he's fucked off and abandoned the consequences he and his like have brought on the heads of the British people
Delete - what does that mean ?
The upcoming elections - are you actually predicting after pouring contempt on experts predicting things ?
"very little point in trying to make a factual statement if the entire argument is predicated on "We estimate""
You really are not very good at this are you ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 09:27 AM

More Facts:
FOUR Welsh assembly members (AMs) have sensationally joined the Brexit Party “with immediate effect” to give Nigel Farage’s party their first political representation at a national level.


Polls are generally accurate indications. When parties are polling neck and neck
accuracy diminishes to within 5-10 % points. This is a well known fact. As the percentages widen between the parties the inherent inaccuracies of the methodology fade away to insignificance. Pretty obvious really (to most)
I can always argue with facts. Your ideology, conjecture and blustering will never win an argument. You even have to resort to swearing when posting outright lies about Mr Dyson.
Had Mr Dyson wished to he could have made it so that his tax liability in the UK was minimal. Instead he paid a tax liability of 127£million (the thirdhighest in the UK) It is a contribution thousands of times bigger than you or your clones could contribute. Of course being the biggest recipient of CAP funds in the UK gives him a million plus reasons to keep smiling. Displaying your envy so publicly is a far from edifying sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 10:49 AM

Meanwhile the Welsh People have taken to the streets again, demanding independence (a few more than "four" I think)
WONDER WHO OUR RESIDENT CAP-DOFFER WILL SIDE WITH !!!

"You even have to resort to swearing when posting outright lies about Mr Dyson."
Who says Dyson hasn't pissed off elsewhere with his factory (apart from you, apparently)
Don't forget to brush your teeth before you go to bed tonight
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 11:54 AM

INCIDENTALLY
AND
In 2010, Dyson transferred shares offshore to Malta, another tax haven. Following criticism, the move is being unwound. The firm said: "Dyson is a UK owned company, and paid taxes of over £100m in 2013. The administrative companies referred to in Malta will soon be inactive." [see footnote]
AND AGAIN
HABIT OF A LIFETIME - IT SEEMS
DYSON'S TAXPAYING in CONTEXT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 01:13 PM

Here's a quote from one of your articles.

"There is no suggestion that any action by Sir James Dyson, his family or his firms is unlawful in any way."

It's his money and his business. He is allowed to take both where he wants to. I suspect a move from the UK would be more in anticipation of a Corbyn Government than of Brexit. If Corbyn becomes PM you can expect a lot more people wanting to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 19 - 01:27 PM

"If Corbyn becomes PM you can expect a lot more people wanting to get out."

You forgot the two most important words that should appear between 'more' and 'people' - 'immensely wealthy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 01:46 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: You forgot the two most important words that should appear between 'more' and 'people' - 'immensely wealthy'.

Very good point. Exactly the people who pay most of the income tax paid

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580074/Top-25-earners-pay-75-ALL-income-tax-half-country-contributes-10.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:03 PM

""There is no suggestion that any action by Sir James Dyson, his family or his firms is unlawful in any way.""
So - those who make the laws get to break and manipulate them them with impunity
Iain was praising this tax dodging 'patriot' to the skies for how much tax he paid when it turns out he was dodging them just like the rest of his ilk
He has yet to tell us what this has to do with his financing Brexit then doing a runner when he realised its consequences
Don't suppose you'll tell us either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:38 PM

”Very good point. Exactly the people who pay most of the income tax paid”

And, of course, you miss the point - deliberately, I’m obliged to believe - which is that those people are in a position to ‘get out’ whilst the vast majority, who also pay their taxes at a level according to, and befitting, their significantly lower incomes, are considerably less able, and will be obliged to remain and suffer the disaster to which they are condemned by the Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:48 PM

I am more concerned with the disaster to which we would all be would be condemned by a Corbyn government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:00 PM

Well Stanron at the moment you don't have to worry about that because the conservatives are taking us to an unknown future.

In the past three years all I have read, heard, watched has told me that the British public will be worse off if we leave the EU than we would be if we remained within it.

Perhaps, as your 'colleagues' have been unable to, you could provide some positive forecasts.

Any good news perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:29 PM

Exactly the people who pay most of the income tax paid

Just what percentage of their income is taken in tax? How much disposable income do they have left? The figures may look large but if you compare the percentage to what you and I pay, it is peanuts. Is it fair that Dyson has millions left while some working people have to rely on food banks to make ends meet? If a Corbyn government evens things out a little, it can only be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:57 PM

Percentage of income is Labour's rather weak response to the economic facts. The richest small percentage of our population pay vastly more in actual terms than the far larger poorest percentage. It's an embarrassing fact for the left so they muddy the waters by saying that the poorest pay a higher percentage of their income. You would have to be numerically challenged to not realise that the larger part of our income tax take comes from our richest residents and if you frighten them off we will all be seriously poorer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:08 PM

Yet again Stanron, people from your side of the discussion have not answered a straightforward question.

How will the UK, as a whole, be better off if we leave the EU.

I have repeatedly asked this question for almost three years. Not once, not once, have I received a positive, coherent response.

IF someone could provide a reasoned response perhaps some of us may be convinced that leaving the EU was a good idea.

And again I ask ......... any good news about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:24 PM

"...if you frighten them off we will all be seriously poorer."

Ah, so the mega-rich are holding the country to ransom then! Makes a change - it was always the unions in our day! Bwahahaha!

What hypocrisy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:26 PM

We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the United Nations; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:56 PM

I have a long memory and, though you haven't posted much recently, I recall you as a person who dresses up intolerance in the gentle cloak of poetry. I suggest you remind yourself as to how what we now know as the EU originated: as a recoil against the extreme nationalism that pitched us into two world wars. And it's worked. Argue misguidedly for brexit if you like, but kindly don't argue for a return to the sort of Europe that was constantly at war with itself for centuries and that gave us the two most dreadful events in human history, and the Holocaust to boot. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:05 PM

But you miss the point, Steve, that I am very much in favour of a stronger more-democratic UNITED Nations (partly via getting rid of "clubs" such as the EU, Commonwealth, African Union, etc.),

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:16 PM

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between Dyson the man (who is uk tax resident and paid 128 million pounds tax last year to the exchequer) and Dyson the company(record annual profits of £1.1bn for 2018) that pays tax on turnover in whatever country sales occur in. This is a subtlety overlooked by leftward leaning persons, whose knowledge of finance and accounting is so abysmal they trash the economy each time they are in power(eg Beneficent Brown flogging off a chunk of the UK gold reserves for a third of it's value)

As an individual Mr Dyson can move his assets wherever he wishes, for whatever reasons motivate him. This right is embedded in EU legislation. He employs 12000 worldwide, roughly 33% in UK. Like any astute business man he makes his widgets where they create most profit.
How much do those decrying him here pay in tax, or employ, or even have the nous to create anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:30 PM

Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner

I think it would be polite if a mudelf wishes to make deletions and substitute their own material in my posts they should make it clear that they have done so

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:44 PM

The UN has been serially emasculated by the United States, which mortally undermines it via detestable vetos and by failing to pay its dues, and by the general hegemony of those giant and corrupt nations which regard themselves as "superpowers." The EU may be twenty-eight nations, but the US is one nation almost as big and China is one nation four times as big. And the individual nations of the EU, what's more, enjoy individual sovereignty and nationalistic pride, in the best sense, that helps to retain their individuality. Your blinkers are preventing you from seeing the right targets. Shed your ideology and see the real picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:40 PM

"There seems to be a lot of confusion here between"
Checkmate, I think

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:03 PM

Steve. Motes, beams and maybe the eyes are yours. Had it occurred to you that you may be the one tied to an ideology? The initial idea of the EU was a good one. Unfortunately what it has become is a kind of modern day re-iteration of the Roman Empire and it's successor the Holy Roman Church.

It is not interested in democracy, it is not interested in the welfare of it's subjects. It is interested in it's own wealth, status and power. Like the Catholic church it has an ideology, with which you appear to agree, it has a closed system of appointing it's own leaders and it enforces a hierarchical structure. I wonder whether St Cuthbert realised what he was doing when he gave in to Romes rule. Maybe he foresaw war and destruction if he tried to resist. The Irish church model seems to have been closer to the Cathar heresy and look what happened to them. It took us a millennium to get free of the Roman church. We are now in a position to extract ourselves from it's political equivalent. It's got to be worth the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:29 PM

That's the most ridiculous fantasy I've read in years. You are a tribal Tory, an ideologue of the very worst, self-interested kind. It ill-behoves you to criticise what you see as the ideology of those who are internationalists, who see people as human beings and who want to see a drive towards equality. You and your tribe, a tribe steeped in racism and xenophobia, can't even sniff that. And you have no understanding whatsoever of the way the EU works. Those of us who, unlike you who follows the Teribus path like sheep, go to the trouble of finding out, in contrast to people like you who operate solely on received wisdom, know that the EU is extremely imperfect and we freely acknowledge the need for reform, whilst knowing that the fundamental structures to achieve that are in place. But I can't discuss that with you because you've chosen to keep yourself wilfully and ideologically ignorant, typical Tory that you are. Your Roman Empire juxtaposition is just about the stupidest thing I've read here all day, and, believe me, you have some stiff competition. Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 10:27 PM

Steve. Don't you get that Internationalism is an Ideology? It betrays Nationalism. If you support it you are, in Nationalistic terms, a traitor.

As for equality, where is the equality between a pope and a peasant? Where is the equality between Jean Claude Junker and me? You appear to be the ideologue and I am not seeing much in the way of rational argument

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:56 AM

"Nationalism"
Now it all becomes clear !!!
Why didn't you say that in the first place ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:51 AM

Where is the equality between Jean Claude Junker and me?

So the inequality between Dyson and the man in the the street is fine but the inequality between Junker and you is not? There is something seriously screwy with you logic, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 05:55 AM

It is not difficult to see that inequality between Dyson and the man in the street is a product of his inventiveness and hard work. He was not handed it on a plate by a cabal of hidden power brokers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:52 AM

He's become mega-rich by inventing over-priced and unreliable technology that, er, works when it works...and by creaming off the CAP, which I will agree is the biggest absurdity of the EU. And I absolutely don't want to know what's in that nasty damp little trough at the bottom of every Dyson Airblade hand-dryer. Don't touch the sides whatever you do...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 07:59 AM

Oh yes I fogot that of course, Stanron. Every rich person is self made and deserves it.

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 08:47 AM

Interesting parallels here

Switzerland to re-run referendum because voters were not given the facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:11 AM

Of course, I forgot to mention the Airblade V, which does away with the trough but which blasts your germs all over the washroom. And God help you if, like me, you have a V6 cordless vacuum cleaner with it's sticking valve, seizing rollers and clogging drum, not to speak of the filter that won't let you use the "max" setting, and the drum emptying mechanism (you'll need a long stick to unclog the drum's holes, by the way) that automatically has you inhaling toxic dust... the DC14 Animal we had almost set our house on fire when the motor suddenly burned out, and the plastic extendable hoses on the uprights last about six months if you're lucky. The inventiveness he's shown was plagiarised from Heath Robinson and the hard work he does consists of sitting on his arse watching the farming subsidies rolling in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:22 AM

Unfortunately, our cap-doffers and forelock-tuggers aren’t able to see these things while their faces are buried in the toffs’ arse-cracks and their tongues are massaging the toffs’ anal sphincters, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:32 AM

is a product of his inventiveness and hard work"
Then a feller on shift work assembling vacuum cleaners for a pittance is worth less than someone who hardly has to break out in a sweat
About time these cap-doffers realised that one would be useless without the other
Not suggesting that the contribution is equal, but the differential is beyond all reason - and as Dyson has amply demonstrated, the richer you get, the more likely you are to be able to avoid paying your share
Virtually all inventions are a team effort anyway - one has an idea and a team (of lesser paids) makes it a practicality

As I've said before - without plumbers, the world would have to shit in the garden, and without electricians, they'd have to do it in the dark
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:45 AM

Now for a party political pamphlet from bliar blair june1983.
Labour’s official policy at the 1983 election was to leave the EU, written into a manifesto dubbed “the longest suicide note in history” by its late MP Gerald Kaufman.
Mr Blair added the Brussels institution “has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs”.
The arch Remoaner was first elected to the House of Commons in 1983, and the literature handed out to his Sedgefield constituents in the North East proudly displays his Eursosepcticism.

This is the same chappie popping up like turd in a punchbowl trying desperately to thwart the will of the people and reverse Brexit.

You could not make it up!

By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?

For example:
Jeremy Corbyn spent PMQs railing against highly paid FTSE 100 chief executives, challenging May: “is this a Government of the many or in the pockets of an elite few?” Unfortunately John McDonnell didn’t seem to get the memo in time, he’s spent the last two days hobnobbing at exclusive events… with FTSE 100 chief executives.
Awkward…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 12:27 PM

”By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?”

Red Herring Alert.

Brexit is the project of the Tory Party, aided and abetted by the Nicotine-Stained Haddock and his ‘Party’ - Labour’s Brexit Policy is irrelevant.

The Praying Mantis has kept everyone else out of it until it became obvious, even to an egotist like her, that she’s buggered. When she was forced to beg Labour to help her out, they should have told her to go boil her head - the Tories started it, let them finish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:36 PM

Brexit is the project of the Tory Party, aided and abetted by the Nicotine-Stained Haddock and his ‘Party’ - Labour’s Brexit Policy is irrelevant.

Come Come now! You are being rather economical with the truth.
Labour promised 3 times to have a referendum and reneged three times
on 20 April 2004 Blair told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".

He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."

the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.
Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."

Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 01:00(Irish Times)
BRITAIN:Gordon Brown appears determined to defy popular demands for a British referendum on the EU reform treaty, despite mounting internal Labour Party pressure ahead of this week's European summit in Lisbon. It was of course a commitment on the Labour election manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:39 PM

Stanron, Once again someone from your side of the discussion will not provide answers to a straightforward question.

I can only presume that this is so because non of you actually know any answers to the question.

How on earth can you tell us all we should leave the EU unless you can tell the rest of us how we will benefit from that decision.

So come on,provide some answers.


(PS Once again I won't hold my breath.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:43 PM

Raggytash wrote: Stanron, Once again someone from your side of the discussion will not provide answers to a straightforward question.

I have answered your question twice before. Both times you dismissed my answer. Other people may well have answered too. Put the work in to search for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:07 PM

No Stanron, not once has anyone said how we, the public, will benefit.

We've had platitudes about regaining our sovereignty, which we never lost, and controlling our borders, which will still, post Brexit, allow people from outside the EU to enter. We could change that tomorrow should it be deemed beneficial.

So come on, tell me how the people will benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:13 PM

Steve - I agree that the UN must improve but would add that the EU also has issues with the issues you mention, including vetos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:39 PM

The EU 28, as I've explained many times before on this forum, generally reach agreement on policy and regulation by common consent, without the need to take matters to a vote in Parliament, though that option is there. The power of veto is there at various agreed levels, typically according to the size of the state that might invoke it, but more commonly the veto will be considered not by an individual state but by a bloc of states. The UK is regarded as one of the more argumentative states of the EU, but even so we have accepted without demur 95% of all proposals (thousands of them) and have only disagreed with any vehemence on half of the rest. In contrast, the UN has several massive states with individual powers of veto that are used for purely ideological reasons. For example, the US exercises its veto utterly routinely in order to prevent any criticism whatsoever of Israel, regardless of the level of atrocity carried out by that country's regime. Consensus is not possible under those circumstances. Your support of the UN over the EU is completely arse about face.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:01 PM

The two top layers of power in the EU are beyond the choice of the electorate. As an EU voter I cannot vote the President in or out. As an EU voter I cannot vote members of the Commission, who decide who becomes President, in or out of their Commission positions. The two top layers of power in the EU are not democratically controlled. The EU is not Democratic. The sooner we are out, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:28 PM

Absolute bollocks, and you know it. The Commission can instigate debate and suggest policy but is completely powerless with regard to deciding and executing policy. That is one hundred percent down to the twenty-eight member states and, if needs be, the elected European Parliament. I'll be kind to you and assume that you've been gullible enough to soak up and accept lies rather than that you yourself are lying. You are accepting of received wisdom from your anti-EU ilk, when what you should actually be doing is apprising yourself of the actual mechanisms of the EU. You haven't a clue as to the latter, and your pale Teribus-imitation is rather pathetic, actually. Now toddle off and educate yourself as to how the EU, for all its flaws, actually works, and get honest. Go on, Teribus will be reading this, so show him how it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:33 PM

It's kind of like the two top layers of the Catholic church. The person who takes mass in their local church cannot vote for their pope. Neither can they vote for their Cardinals who do vote for their next Pope. A scarily exact analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:38 PM

Steve nothing in your post contradicts my post of Date: 16 May 19 - 06:01 PM. How many EU presidents have you voted for? When was the last time you voted a Commission member into his position on the Commission?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:38 PM

Scarily offbeam, actually. Off you go and do your homework for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:48 PM

Thank you for confirming that you have never voted for an EU President and you have never voted a Commission member to his or her position on the Commission. Thank you for confirming that the two top layers of power in the EU are beyond democratic control.

Do you like my comparison to the two top layers of power in the EU to the two top layers of power in the Catholic Church?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:49 PM

How many UK Prime Ministers have you voted for? When was the last time you voted a Cabinet member into his position in the Cabinet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 08:03 PM

And who voted for Theresa May in 2016? Who will vote for her successor any day now? You're being daft, aren't you, Stanron?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:22 AM

Who will vote for her successor any day now?

It may be argued the Conservative membership will, but that is quite a stretch, because they can only choose one of the two that others have selected. If you are a One Nation Tory, forget it - you will almost certainly be offered the choice of two Brexiteers. It is rather like what I believe conjurers refer to as a forced card.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:26 AM

What President do you mean Stanron? The President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission are both elected by the European Council which comprises the Heads of State of the Member States. They are elected for fixed terms. Both are accountable to the European Parliament. The Presidency of the Council of the European Union is held by one of the member states, in rotation. In contrast, I have never been able to vote for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, the Head of the Civil Service, or the Queen. And the last one of those is in office for life. The EU is far more democratic than the UK.

I think that you are confused as to what a President is. It is someone who presides at meetings. When you confuse a presidency with an executive authority, you get a system which really doesn't work very well, as we see in various countries around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 19 - 03:32 AM

Parroting out received wisdom is a wonderfully lazy and all too easy thing to do. It's amazing how often critics of the EU such as Stanron betray the fact that they haven't done their homework as to how the EU works, and that's precisely what the Farages of this world depend on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 03:55 AM

Meanwhile, back to the harsh realities of life!
YouGov / European Election

Brexit Party 35
LIB 16
LAB 15
Green 10
CONs 9
CUKs 5
SNP 3
UKIP 3
Other 3

How high is Brexit Momma? 35% and rising......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 04:21 AM

According to today's Telegraph:

The latest polling average puts Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party ahead of the two major parties, on 30 per cent compared to Labour’s 21 per cent and the Tories’ 12 per cent.


That is around what UKIP were polling before the previous EU elections (one of the polls last time put UKIP on 38%.)

Despite all the noise and bluster, it is looking like Brexit is going to be a fairly straightforward replacement of UKIP last time. After all, even Farage has said the policies are the same.

How that will translate into seats, I will not predict, because it will depend very much on turnout, which I suspect will be higher than normal. How those percentages and the distribution of turnout interact in the end I would not like to guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 04:26 AM

Gloating over the numbers supporting this Lemming Leap (somewhat reminiscent of that with the Tommy Robinson petition) in no way alters the fact that Brexit has torn British society to shreds and left the UK virtually leaderless as things stand - that's the reality
Hardly anything to celebrate - I wouldn't have thought it would be something those who claim to love their country would be too pleased about - but it takes all sorts, I suppose !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 04:48 AM

”By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?”

This was answered last night on"Question Time" and the audience response was prolonged laughter.

To claim Brexit is only a Tory problem is extremely bizarre. But as a poll finds only 13% of Labour voters understand Labour's brexit policy perhaps such outlandish claims attempting to disown it can be understood.
The corresponding figure for brexiteers was 60%.

These figures do not bode well for Labour in the upcoming EU elections which are all about brexit.
Can we assume from the position taken by some posters they will refuse to participate, because it is not their problem, or will they take the inevitable hammering anyway?
The silent majority, believing in democracy, will be speaking with their votes The outcome of the vote will be much more unambiguous than a second referendum. Perhaps we will need to erect tents during polling. To create safe spaces dispensing spoons full of sugar to staunch remainiacs, in order that the unpalatable reality(of losing-again) will go down

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 05:05 AM

As an old bomber pilot said:
You know you are getting close to the target when the flak gets heavier!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 19 - 05:23 AM

As I have a postal vote, I voted two weeks ago. Not disclosing who I voted for, other than to say that it wasn’t the group whose top candidate was the obnoxious, opportunist Annunziata Rees-Mogg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 05:25 AM

" But as a poll finds only 13% of Labour voters understand Labour's brexit policy "
The country as a whole is totally bemused abot the Tory's Brexit policy and the Party itself are totally unable to agree on how it wishes to leave - or if it does
What a strange comment, given the circumstances
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 06:04 AM

What a strange comment, given the circumstances

Here is a dose of reality from darkest Wales.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/nigel-farages-brexit-party-just-16284407

Who cares about yesterday's parties. They are not even also rans!

Is straw clutching to become an Olympic Sport?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 06:50 AM

Farage is an opportunist fascist who is using the same hate policy that forced Enoch Powell out of the Tory Party
It is depressing that what made Powell an embarrassment is now being used as a step up the fame and fortune ladder - a sign of national deterioration
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 06:52 AM

Bombs away Skipper!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 07:34 AM

Corbyn formally states talks have gone as far as they can.

This is, I think, no surprise to anyone: the only doubt was over who said it first.

According to Peston, it is likely that the next step will be to give a statement on Monday that indicative votes will be held on Wednesday with the aim of reflecting these in in the WAB, taking into account not just whether they pass or not, but the strength of support. And, of course, no firm statement that even ones that pass will find their way into the WAB.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 07:56 AM

Other reports on the leaks say the indicative votes may be 5th June. Possible, but as the declared aim is to reflect them in the WAB due to be voted on in the week of the 3rd June, that is tight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 08:12 AM

Corbyn has pulled Labour out of the Brexit meetings with May
Hope he never caught anything 'Terminally Tory' from her
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 May 19 - 08:21 AM

Maybe this country will only come to its senses when it has undergone a decade or to of living inn a real totalitarian state which governs by fear, then people might learn to appreciate what we have, and what the rest of Europe has moved towards and worked hard to maintain. For example in the then Czechoslovakia, under soviet control Verejná bezpecnost (VB) did not hesitate to use violence against individuals who did not toe the state line.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 09:09 AM

"For example in the then Czechoslovakia, under soviet control Verejná bezpecnost"
Free Central and Eastern Europe is a far safer place in the democratic hands of Poisoner Putin and Fascist Viktor Orban (with US backing, of course)
HERE

Well done Populism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 01:07 PM

Well done Populism

POPULISM noun
    a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

As exemplified by the meteoric rise of the brexit party.

The Eurobarometer survey of surveys, which polled 27,973 European citizens between February 19 and March 4, reviewed the trend of support for the bloc across the European Union and made predictions on the likelihood of election of populist parties based on a series of 12 questions – varying from opinions on overall membership of the EU to themes the bloc should focus on.

Based on the responses collected in the poll, the European Parliament forecasted an increase in support for populist parties in Italy, France, Czech Republic and Greece – with a large number of Italian and Greek citizens polled suggesting their country has not benefited from membership of the bloc (45 percent and 40 percent respectively.) The projection was updated in April to also take into account British participation in the EU parliamentary poll.

Anxiety among European Union officials is high, with fears of a Eurosceptic, nationalist surge. The European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker claimed that the European Union has lost its “libido”.

Mr Juncker acknowledged the expected gains for populist and Eurosceptic parties in Europe-wide elections.

Well done populism indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 May 19 - 01:25 PM

......or 'hurrah for the blackshirts! to put it more succinctly , mr spode. you cannot be serious

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 01:40 PM

True, populism is a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups

Its goal is not to improve their lot.
It goal is not to improve democratic representation.
It's goal is to appeal and thereby gain power. The less a populist says about what they intend to do, the freer their hand should they get power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 19 - 01:55 PM

"The Eurobarometer survey of surveys, which polled 27,973"
From "professional blogger" AURORA BOSOTTI (self description) and published in that font of truth and wisdon, 'The Daily Express'
What else are they going to find with their redsearches
They miss out the effects on victims of hate that 'populism uses as scapegoats of everything that has gone wrong with society - particularly those of different ethnic or national backgrounds
No wonder the quote ewan't identified !
A step up from Guido, I suppose (just)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:26 PM

The Eurobarometer survey of surveys, which polled 27,973"
From "professional blogger" AURORA BOSOTTI (self description) and published in that font of truth and wisdon, 'The Daily Express'

I fink the eurobarometer was established in 1974. Each survey consists of approximately 1000 face-to-face interviews per country. Reports are published twice yearly. Reproduction is authorised, except for commercial purposes, provided the source is acknowledged.
Special Eurobarometer reports are based on in-depth thematic studies carried out for various services of the European Commission or other EU Institutions and integrated in the Standard Eurobarometer's polling waves. Reproduction is authorised, except for commercial purposes, provided the source is acknowledged.

once again a stunning example of shoot the messenger because establishing the veracity of the message was too much trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 19 - 02:30 AM

Your promotion of Farage - a failed hate merchant seeking a second chance, says everything about the Brave New Britain you are promoting
The shambles that Brexit actually is and the damage it has already done speaks for itself
The fact that you or Stanron or Nigel refuse even to discuss that damage makes you part of it
Populism gave the world Trump and Orban and is in line to giving us LePen - in the past it gave the world the Holocaust, Rwanda and the horrors of 'Former Yugoslavia' - all prejudice driven - like Brexit
Not a Brave New World I would want to pass on to my kids
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 May 19 - 04:19 AM

Your promotion of Farage - a failed hate merchant seeking a second chance, says everything about the Brave New Britain you are promoting.

Farage promotes the implementation of the majority vote to leave the EU, something the 2 main opposition parties seem determined to thwart.

Mr Juncker acknowledged the expected gains for populist and Eurosceptic parties in Europe-wide elections, and claimed that the European Union has lost its “libido”.

He will need more than free doses of Viagra at the polling booth to sort that problem out!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 19 - 02:58 PM

"Farage promotes the implementation of the majority vote to leave the EU,"
That decision to leave was promoted by FARAGE'S RACIST POSTER
Farage is a racist ex-leader of a party that CRASHED IN FLAMES
after proving to the vast majority of the British people that it was not fit to lead a pub crawl, never mind a country
Britain already has enough RACIST SCUM WAITING IN THE WINGS without another
Who the hell cares what someone like yourself with your track record on race cares anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 May 19 - 04:03 PM

The only significant thing to be concerned about is the outcome from the ballot box where people can exert their democratic vote.
The outcome of the EU voting in the UK will ably demonstrate the strength of the brexit feeling in the UK and by this time next week we will have the answer.

It is of course necessary to bear in mind the following shock/horror:
Australian Labor Won 54 Polls in a Row, Including Exit Poll, Lost Actual Election

Listening to too much Marr and Mayhem can seriously damage rational thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 19 - 05:27 PM

Yeah, what's up with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 May 19 - 06:52 PM

As a maximum every 5 years we, the public of the UK, have the right to vote to change our leadership, which does change should the vote go that way.

On occasions that 5 years is curtailed to 1, 2 3 or 4 years depending on the issues at play.

It does not seem unreasonable given the above that we should have another vote as to whether we should leave the EU.

Much has happened in the past three years and some of us are much more aware of the various issues that may arise from our decision today. Issues that, for the most part, many of us were ignorant of before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:25 AM

"The only significant thing to be concerned about is the outcome from the ballot box where people can exert their democratic vote."
So when the German people elected Hitler or the Hungarians elect Orban, or if the French elect LePen, it doesn't matter what follows
What an ugly outlook on life
Why don't you surprise me ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:41 AM

It does not seem unreasonable given the above that we should have another vote as to whether we should leave the EU.

Had the outcome of the referendum have been implemented your request for a second vote might have merit(given a suitable time period elapsing)
However the last vote from June 2016 has yet to be accepted and acted on, so calls for a further vote are an affront to democracy.

The government intransigence has required last minute canvassing for the upcoming EU elections. This was an event that the UK should not have been a participant in, but will give a very clear indicative vote of where people stand on brexit.

Latest polling suggests the Brexit party is still gathering support.
This support is not just from brexiteers but a large contingent of people see the Brexit party as the only one that supports democratic principles. For these fine people principle is far more important than ideology and democracy must be supported.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:15 AM

So when the German people elected Hitler or the Hungarians elect Orban, or if the French elect LePen, it doesn't matter what follows
I wonder why you omitted the US President TRUMP? Does he not count as he was allegedly put in place by pesky Russian collusion?

How many times has democracy elected a labour government? The ultimate example of Lords of misrule!

I assume from your post you do not believe in the democratic vote, because people might vote the wrong way.

Thank God you are exiled in a place where you can do no damage!People like you are dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:30 AM

So when the German people elected Hitler or the Hungarians elect Orban, or if the French elect LePen, it doesn't matter what follows
I wonder why you omitted the US President TRUMP? Does he not count as he was allegedly put in place by pesky Russian collusion?

How many times has democracy elected a labour government? The ultimate example of Lords of misrule!

So which is nearer the 'ultimate' lord of misrule - Hitler or a Labour government? Are you really saying, 'on balance, Labour'? I think you could be accused of anti-Semitism if you do.

Democracy is flawed, particularly with a FPTP voting system. One of its flaws is that sometimes power is given to very dangerous people, like those Jim mentioned. Voting for a party with no declared policies increases that risk. Ok, let's imagine the Brexit Party were to be elected with Farage as PM. On day one, he writes to the EU: "That's it, we leave with immediate effect". Done what he was elected to do. His supporters are presumably happy.

Now what does he do from day 2 for the rest of another 5 years? No one has been told yet. And, importantly, his supporters are not even willing to think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:32 AM

There you have it Rag - the people's voice is only important when it coincides with his own - elect Farage and your say is important, elect a labour Government and you become "dangerous"
Now wasn't that worth the effort getting him to confess ?
He really isn't very good at this - people who feel the need to threaten and bully never are
Had my fun for the day, I think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:34 AM

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, my saying "democracy is flawed" is not saying "scrap democracy." It is simply recognising that for all its benefits it has flaws.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 04:01 AM

"It is simply recognising that for all its benefits it has flaws"
The populism sch as that being spoute by this clown (manipulated democracy) is an example of just that
which is why extremists such as the present incumbent leap on it as a method to push though policies tht are obviously flawed
Come the time that Brexit fulfils its promise as the stupid move it obviously is, the establishment will have the perfect 'get out of jail free' card - nuffin' to do with us - it was the 'People's Choice'
Parliamentary 'Democracy' has never been democratic and has had its day - nobody takes politicians seriously
Now we are faced with the scummy rabble rousers and hate merchants
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 04:30 AM

Anyone enfranchised can vote. Democracy requires that the outcome is respected.
Whether the outcome is positive or negative depends upon the respective person's viewpoint.
No one would conclude the rise of Nazi Germany was a good outcome.

Decisions made by Democratically elected governments are not always good ones.

The Iraqi war was based on mythical weapons of mass destruction, thanks to Blair. THe events surrounding the mysterious death of Dr Kelly tar the labour government of the time with a rather unsavoury brush.

A leaked report from the OPCW tells a very different story to the one given for public consumption concerning the gassing at Douma and justification for the subsequent bombing campaign in Syria.

The 2016 referendum result has still to be implemented because of deliberate stalling by the elected government in direct opposition to the mandate of the people.

It is obvious that democracy has flaws. As yet nothing better has been found as a substitute. Many posting here make it very clear they would blatantly ignore the vote if the outcome did not suit their expectations. A very scary precedent they are advocating! They show the same contempt for the electorate as Parliament. Hence the rise of Brexit.
The majority will prevail - Get used to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 04:54 AM

”Had the outcome of the referendum have been implemented your request for a second vote might have merit(given a suitable time period elapsing)
However the last vote from June 2016 has yet to be accepted and acted on, so calls for a further vote are an affront to democracy.”

Since the Referendum, it has become patently obvious to all except the most blinkered Right-Wing-Extremist anal-sphincter-lickers, that leaving the EU is far from being the ‘easy’ process that the ‘Leave’ Campaign Echo-Chamber trumpeted it would be, that myriad facts have come to light since the Referendum, and that there will be long-lasting damage caused by leaving - possibly as long as fifty years according to arch-Brexiteer Rees-Mogg.

Only the brain-washed or brain-less would regard the idea of giving the electorate a chance to vote in order to either confirm their original wish, or indicate that, in view of the huge amount of information that has become available since the Referendum, they wish now to change their minds, as being ‘un-democratic’.

They really do need to give their heads a wobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 07:08 AM

Even the former Brexit-Secretary, David Davis, understands the most basic principle of democracy - that "When a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy" (his speech in 2012).

What a shame that Brexit supporters in general seem totally unable to grasp even this most simple and basic principle of the democracy they claim to crave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 May 19 - 07:48 AM

Democracy in our country is Parliamentary democracy. And out members of Parliament are obliged to act in their constituents' interests. Not in accordance with a flawed and corrupt referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 08:15 AM

"No one would conclude the rise of Nazi Germany was a good outcome.
You - by claiming that the vote is the be all and end all, said exactly that
Just as the majority voted for Brexit the majority in Germany voted for nazism
It takes a special kind of stupidity to claim that is you vote for Brexit than that decision must be adhered to yet, if you vote Labour, you are "dangerous"
You missed out big time when they handed out joined-up thinking, didn't you

When have they ever done that - and not just "in the constituents interest", by the way - a nationally elected Government is committed to act in the est interests of the country as a whole
What suits the South Eastern "soft underbelly of Britain" may not be i the interests of the impoverished North, as is now evident
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 08:49 AM

”Democracy in our country is Parliamentary democracy. And out members of Parliament are obliged to act in their constituents' interests. Not in accordance with a flawed and corrupt referendum.”

You’re absolutely correct, of course, David, and it’s a fact that’s been not to obey their electorate’s wishes, it is to do what they - the MPs - believe is in the best interests of the country as a whole. That is Parliamentary Democracy.

Sadly, that seems to be a concept far too difficult for The Brain-washed and The Brainless to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 08:55 AM

I’ll try that again!

You’re absolutely correct, of course, David, and it’s a fact that’s been ignored or misunderstood - probably deliberately - that an MP’s responsibility is not to obey their electorate’s wishes, it is to do what they - the MPs - believe is in the best interests of the country as a whole. That is Parliamentary Democracy.

Sadly, that seems to be a concept far too difficult for The Brain-washed and The Brainless to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 11:08 AM

that an MP’s responsibility is not to obey their electorate’s wishes, it is to do what they - the MPs - believe is in the best interests of the country as a whole. That is Parliamentary Democracy.

Seems the electorate have a different take on the matter. When their elected representatives no longer represent them they are discarded.

That is why the local council elections gave both parties a hammering.
The electorate do not like being lied to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:01 PM

And again, you indicate your complete ignorance of what Parliamentary Representative Democracy actually is. It is a clearly defined system - no amount of wishful-thinking on the part of Right-Wing Extremists like you, and delusional BrexShit-Bumpkins will make it anything other than what it is.

Give your dopey heads a wobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:17 PM

When insults and bluster replace rational argument I think game, set, match to me(and all those righteous citizens that kicked both tory and labour councilors into touch in the recent elections)
Further proof will come from the EU elections where conservative estimates give the brexit party one third of the seats. We will see then who are the wobble headed, loonies and delusional.

Prepare for disappointment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:45 PM

I haven't seen an estimate that gives the Brexit Party one third of the seats. One third of the vote, perhaps, but not seats. Can you provide a link to such an estimate?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:59 PM

“When insults and bluster replace rational argument I think game, set, match to me”

No bluster from me, simply facts, logic, and rational argument which others are able to understand, but which seem to be far, far beyond your intellect.

And as regards ‘insults’, coming from the most aggressive, abusive, insulting poster on this thread, or any other thread you decide to stink up with your presence (there’s evidence a-plenty on this forum), words like ‘pot’, ‘kettle’, and ‘black’ spring to mind. You’re fooling nobody but yourself.

Give your silly head a wobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 01:31 PM

Reporting back that the RemainUinted.org website did predict between 22 and 25 seats out of 70 for the Brexit Party, so the estimate *is* out there in the ether. However, as that is based on polling between 1-7 May, there may be a more up to date estimate.

For comparison, Farage and UKIP currently have 22, so getting 22 or below seats could not be claimed as a triumph. One or two more is stretching it to call it a triumph. Over 27 I will allow gloating without demur!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:13 PM

As the Brexit party was not represented in the local council elections the protest vote went to the LibDems. Poor old Vince thinks the same will happen in the EU election.

Now you can either believe the link below or be swayed by the gruniard
https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/05/12/uk-minister-warns-about-protest-votes-at-eu-elections/

and ideology as a poor substitute for common sense. Where wishful thinking overtakes reality

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/12/european-elections-your-guide-to-the-vote-you-never-expected

I hope TBP sweep the board,but polls are somewhat fickle outside the ballot box

In a week we will know for sure!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:27 PM

A bit of a dilemma for our Brexiteers it seems.

According to an article in the Guardian/Observer today it would seem that the Queen herself is in favour of the European Union.

So what are they to do, bow and scrape to royalty or brown-nose their political leaders.

Such hard decisions eh!!

Could someone please link to the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:37 PM

here is the link

I don't it will bother many Brexiteers, though. It was a long time ago, and anyway since she would have to sign a withdrawal agreement, some have already said the Queen would be committing treason if she did so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:50 PM

Thanks DMcG, it doesn't alter the dilemma for our Brexiteers whom I suspect are ardent royalists to boot.

AND it doesn't stop me from taking the p*** out of them !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:54 PM

Rather than the antiques roadshow link above here is one from yesterday that is far more relevant.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-face-wipe-out-nigel-16165569

and the latest voting intentions
conres European Elections Poll May 2019
Survey of GB adults on their voting intentions.

Brexit Party 31% (+4)

Labour 23% (-1)

Lib Dem 16% (+2)

Conservatives 9% (-4)

Green 9% (-)

Change UK 4% (-2)

SNP 4% (+1)

UKIP 2% (-1)

PC 1% (-)

Other 1% (-)

similar to yougov on trends, absolute values a little different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 03:04 AM

Calls for Brexit Party funding to be investigated

That there is a concern that funding is not being declared is obvious - it seems you can pay up to £500 on their website and it does not need to be declared. And this can come via Paypal.   If I wished to make a £50,000 donation, it looks as if I just need to make a lot of small donations of less than £500 a time. If the worst comes to the worst, I might need to set up a hundred separate Paypal accounts, which would be no problem these days. My own website has an email system where unrecognised email addresses are automatically redirected to a single one internally, so giving Paypal one hundred different emails would be easy for my, never mind a state or large interested party.

Of course, the Brexit Party supporters would say either 'fake news', or 'they would say that, wouldn't they?' or both. After all, it is fair to say a possibility of corruption is a long way it existing and then proving it.

But I think we are at a worse stage. If it were to be proved today that the Brexit Party was getting illegal funding - and I am not saying it is - I think its supporters would not care. Banning it from the elections for breaching the rules could cause rioting, I think. And come the general elections, a new Child of Brexit with entirely legitimate funding could sweep the board.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 04:24 AM

There are some very interesting things occurring just before the voting occurs in the EU elections.
1)A false story about Farage running away from a RTA.
2)Noises being made about an enquiry into TBP funding arrangements.
3) The as yet unregistered anti brexit "Led by Donkeys" campaign forced to take down a gay bashing poster, amid strong rumours they have breached their spending limits.
4)Labour is haemorrhaging remain voters to the Lib Dems because of ambiguity on Labour's brexit position.
5)Uncertainty as to how much of the LIBDEM vote in the local council elections was a protest vote. This could produce even more support for brexit.

I predict more attempted character assassination of Farage in the next couple of days in order to sabotage the brexit vote. This could backfire of course as brexiteers are both sophisticated and canny and can easily see through such subterfuge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 04:36 AM

That there is a concern that Brexit funding is not being declared is obvious - it seems you can pay up to £500 on their website and it does not need to be declared. And this can come via Paypal.

Your support is critical for the future of Guardian journalism.
Payment method

    Credit/Debit card

    PayPal

'nuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 07:39 AM

When did The Guardian become a registered political party?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 08:25 AM

Quite so, Backwoodsman. Paypal is important because in makes tracing sources of funding harder. There are legal constraints on that for political parties that do not apply to newspapers.

I'd appreciate views on the second point I made, though. If there was evidence of funding irregularities, would any Brexiteer care? I don't think they would. And if it was proven to the point the Brexit Party was prohibited from the EU elections, behind the bluster of protest Farage would love it, because it would give him a really strong card to play come the general election "Look how the elites treated you over the EU elections ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 09:31 AM

From the Electoral Commissioners:
Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA), there are controls on which donations a political party can accept. These controls apply to parties that are registered in Great Britain. Certain donations must be recorded and reported to us. We publish these reports in a register on our website.

Who receives donations? Donations are made to registered political parties and accounting units (sections of a party whose finances aren’t managed directly by a party’s headquarters). Parties must appoint someone to be registered with us as their treasurer. The registered treasurer is responsible for making sure that the party follows the rules on donations. This includes maintaining suitable systems within the party to ensure donations are dealt with correctly. What is a donation? A donation is money, goods or services given to a party without charge or on non-commercial terms, with a value of over £500. Some examples of donations include: •A gift of money or other property. •Sponsorship of an event or publication.   •Subscription or affiliation payments. •Free or specially discounted use of an office.
Under PPERA, anything with a value of £500 or less is not a donation.

It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:02 AM

"It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:"
Oooo good - it means he can ask Dyson the Deserter and Lord Snooty for a donation
SPEAKING OF WHICH
Reckoned to be the worst book on British history ever - even worse than Churchill's 'Boys Own' account of the exploits of Empire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:02 AM

"It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:"
Oooo good - it means he can ask Dyson the Deserter and Lord Snooty for a donation
SPEAKING OF WHICH
Reckoned to be the worst book on British history ever - even worse than Churchill's 'Boys Own' account of the exploits of Empire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:16 AM

Electoral Commission to visit Brexit Party offices over funding concerns

A reminder: The rules are about parties standing for election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:23 AM

'Twould appear the establishment is getting rattled! They are behaving just as predicted. Their scurrilous behaviour is so obvious they are simply drumming up even more support for Farage. Hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:53 AM

A REMINDER If one wee needed
AND ANOTHER
AND YET ANOTHER


"Trust me - I'm a Brexiteer" - I don't think so !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:58 AM

”It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:”

Like the Guardian, Alastair Campbell’s ‘’People’s Vote’ is not a registered political party, and therefore is not subject to the rules that apply to registered political parties with regard to donations.

You really are beginning to look very silly indeed. Or very thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:01 AM

Bloody HTML! Try again...

Like the Guardian, Alastair Campbell’s ‘People’s Vote’ is not a registered political party, and therefore is not subject to the rules that apply to registered political parties with regard to donations.

You really are beginning to look very silly indeed. Or very thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:07 AM

European elections
latest polls: Brexit
Party forecast to win most votes
The Telegraph
1 hour ago

Pro- and anti-Brexit
parties neck and
neck in EU
election, says poll
The Guardian
2 hours ago

Brexit Party set to
win more votes
than pro-Remain
parties combined, polling reveals
The Telegraph
10 hours ago

What a joke!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:28 AM

Jim and John. Will you never learn? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 12:13 PM

Reality versus ideology!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/20/brexit-party-set-win-votes-pro-remain-parties-combined-polling/

A stunning graph showing the brexit party gains since the local coucil elections. If accurate the day the EU election results are announced will be a fine popcorn evening of celebration.

Even worse for remainiacs
"The Brexit Party has seen support soar in the aftermath of Theresa May agreeing to an extension of the Brexit deadline with the European Union, with a YouGov poll of 2,212 voters conducted between May 8-9 showing 34 percent of those surveyed would cast their vote in favour of the newborn party. Mr Portillo suggested Britons could again opt to take their vote away from historical parties during a General Election." Farage for PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 01:08 PM

I presume Telegraph readers are not supposed to notice the SNP and Plaid Cwmru are omitted, or ask themselves why.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 01:33 PM

”Care to tell me where I said peoples vote is a political party?”

Nobody has said that you said ‘People’s Vote’ is a political party. However, in responding to criticism of the Brexit Party’s donations policy by drawing attention to the donations policy of People’s Vote, you clearly were attempting to draw a parallel. I simply pointed out that the parallel to which you alluded doesn’t exist.

It’s really not difficult. But apparently too difficult for you. No surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 01:52 PM

"A REMINDER of WHO THE BREXIT PARTY ACTUALLY IS AND IT'S COLOURFUL HISTORY "
It is actually not a party - it is a one-policy and no constitution
It has no members - only paying supporters, so it cannot even claim to be a democratic organisation
It is, in fact, capitalising on the farcical situation created by a sulky group who, by playing on the prejudices of the British people.
An examination of its SISTER PARTY will show how The Brexit Party has its roots in the Extremist Right goroups that have sprung up in Europe - many of whom have died the death of all crank parties

As far as the European Election results are concerned, as the UK vote has never exceeded 40%, any result can hardly be claimed as a victory
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 02:25 PM

Well once again, Nigel you can only see typos and not information. Perhaps you would like to comment on whether you think the Telegraph's omission of those parties (unlike, say, the BBC's poll of polls) is a fair representation of the current voting intentions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 03:49 AM

However, in responding to criticism of the Brexit Party’s donations policy by drawing attention to the donations policy of People’s Vote, you clearly were attempting to draw a parallel. I simply pointed out that the parallel to which you alluded doesn’t exist

Oh Yes it does!

Peoples vote website
we are registered with, and regulated by, the Electoral Commission during this period. This means that donations over £500 have to be verified as permissible, and those over £7,500 published by the Electoral Commission, as required by law. As is the Brexit Party
In an election period the rules become even more stringent.

As people's vote is a pressure group I wonder if the electoral commissioners will investigate them to see how much funding is of foreign(EU)origin?
After all they had a huge donation from a pharmaceutical company representing nearly 30% of it's annual profit. However the EU parent company is worth billions.

You cannot beat a level playing field!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:12 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 May 19 - 02:25 PM

Well once again, Nigel you can only see typos and not information. Perhaps you would like to comment on whether you think the Telegraph's omission of those parties (unlike, say, the BBC's poll of polls) is a fair representation of the current voting intentions?

Such a shame the comment you responded to, which I believe contained nothing in the least offensive, has been deleted.
There seems to be a lot being deleted for no reason recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:37 AM

Apropos my post above. It is significant that the £83K donation mentioned above translates to 100,000 euros using the exchange rate of the time. An unusual figure for a UK origin, but perfectly understandable for an EU origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 05:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:28 AM

Jim and John. Will you never learn? :-(

Strange that in among the multiple deletions that this one was missed!
Has moderation been usurped by a political commissar?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 19 - 05:51 AM

Hammond is making an interesting point today: he is saying that the leaflets etc before the referendum all talked about getting a good deal when we leave the EU. Consequently leaving with no deal is betraying the referendum vote.

Offhand, I cannot remember any information issued before the referendum promoting no deal, but perhaps others have better memory than me. Can someone link to some official documentation from before the referendum vote favouring no deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:38 AM

"Jim and John. Will you never learn? :-( "
When I see a piece of hate graffiti on a wall I deface it if possible - if not, I try to piss on it
You walk away if you wish Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:57 AM

Not pandering to an inflated ego is not the same as walking away, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 07:22 AM

"Not pandering to an inflated ego"
Tearing down and exposing is not pandering Dave
Ignoring is appeasing in my book
Apasrt from anything else, the contradictions of his arguments are worth pointing out - a miniscule non-party with no democratic credentials - the dismissal of minorities because 'they are too small to be considered important' while at the same time clutching on to a far smaller majority as "The will of the people" - attacking elected leaders as "anglophobic" while at the same time denigrating elected politicians who he doesn't agree with
By that argument, accusing a Prime minister as "a traitor" is as "Anglophobic" as it comes

If he actually put up an argument, we would have nothing to complain about - would that Nigel and Stanron did occasionally, but neither of them 'soapbox' as this feler does
Well worth a few minutes worth of exposé in my book
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 19 - 07:25 AM

BTW, your graffiti analogy is very apt. If you deface or piss on the graffiti, it makes it all the more difficult for the owners of the wall to clean it up. Try making the owner's (moderation team's) life easier by not adding to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 19 - 08:10 AM

Amajority of voters did note vote for a no deal[ as some of the brexit party are claiming], some of the leavers voted to leave but be in a similiar position to norway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 08:32 AM

"A majority of voters did note vote for a no deal"
A tiny majority of a 72% turnout voted to leave without having the right to specify any alternatives
The demands being made at present are those of an extremist, unelected, self-appointed right-wing pressure group.

Britain now stands to lose one of its major industries due to "Brexit related problems"
British Steel is awaiting the decision of whether it is to receive a massive bailout in order to survive
Jamie Oliver's Restaurant chain is also facing closure due to Brexit related business problems - all very conducive to Britain "standing on her own two feet"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 19 - 08:40 AM

I think those who favour remain need to careful not to blame every problem on Brexit. None of the articles I have read about Jamie Oliver's business failing says it is related to Brexit. It could be: there could be staffing problems, for example. But if so no one is reporting it as amongst the specific causes. So unless evidence appears to the contrary, it sounds like too many chain restaurants chasing too few customers. That's business, not Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 09:23 AM

"None of the articles I have read about Jamie Oliver's business failing says it is related to Brexit."

"Jamie Oliver is to close six of his Italian restaurants after tough trading and the “pressures and unknowns” following the Brexit vote"
HERE

Pretty much how it was presented on the mid-day news
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:20 AM

Thanks for that, Jim.

I am not convinced, though, that the spokesman is entirely right. Certainly, their problems got worse after the Brexit vote. It does not follow that it got worse because of the Brexit vote. In fact, I think the pressure on wages and austerity is more of a factor, with the only Brexit-related exception being what happens to staff from the EU. (But that applies to most chains, not just Jamie's. And of course a lot of other chains *are* struggling as well.)

I have only eaten once at a "Jamie's Italian" - I am not particularly avoiding them, that's just how things turned out. To me, it seemed fairly average Italian fast food at an above average price. Certainly not something I would try to "wow!" my Italian daughter-in-law with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:45 AM

Never eaten in a Jamies - not my kind of food - but I'm willing to listen to what he has been saying (as a businessman) for several years now
He was against leaving Europe but advocated that doing so might improve the nations dietary habits so it seems he was pragmatic rather than a straightforward stayer
Now the crunch has come, he links his crash to Brexit

Apropo of nothing, there's a lovely story around here of a couple of local electricians employed in a posh restaurant/hotel somewhere in the Midlands of Ireland around Christmastime.
The hotelier decided to treat them to a special Christmas meal - he lined up the staff - best bib and tucker and led the lads to their table where a waiter brought them the wine - handing a tasters sample to our neighbour Paddy to try first - Paddy obliged, tasted it and nodded his assent
Then they brought out the meal nouvelle cuisine - a coule of potatoes, a few vegetables, a couple of thin slices of meat and sprigs of garnish, all beautifully laid out on the plate
Paddy looked at it, scooped it down in one go and nodded - "yes; bring me some of that".
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 12:43 PM

"I wonder how long it takes Mr Plod to investigate this member of the loony left?"
HOPEFULLY NOT AS LONG AS IT'S TAKEN TO DEAL WITH THESE
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JOKEY THREAT AND REALITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 01:03 PM

Violence has been an issue of the Brexit farrago from the time the result was announced and racist incidents began to climb alarmingly
BREXIT AND VIOLENCE

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 01:33 PM

Hate Crimes ang Brexit - official figures
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crimes-racism-eu-referendum-vote-attacks-increase-police-figures-official-a7358866.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:35 PM

Britain now stands to lose one of its major industries due to "Brexit related problems"


So on the day British steel is about to go bankrupt because of an EU policy (emissions trading) and a vindictive EU move (suspending British company's rights to take free allowances), May is going to argue that we should still be regulated by the EU.


Of course, the BBC reports it as "Brexit related issues" rather than "having been affected by an EU decision to suspend UK companies from accessing carbon credits to cover their emissions under the ETS, until a Brexit deal is ratified by the UK's Parliament"

It helps to paint the entire picture otherwise the unwary might totally misunderstand the reality!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 03:29 AM

That is one view of the reasons for British Steel's problems. Here is another lifted from the Guardian:


How much is Brexit to blame?
It is not the only factor in the crisis but it is very important. Steel contracts are typically agreed well in advance of the product being delivered. As things stand, the UK is due to leave the EU on 31 October and the terms of that separation are yet to be agreed, meaning British Steel's overseas customers don't know what tariffs will apply to steel they buy from the company. Sources close to the company say orders from customers in the EU and further afield have dried up as a result.


That is why the company needs an urgent cash injection, to replace the drop in sales in the hope that a favourable Brexit deal can be signed in the meantime. Another factor is the weakness of sterling since the referendum result, which makes the cost of imported raw material used in making steel higher. Greybull bought British Steel after the referendum but it did not expect Brexit uncertainty to last this long.


So which seems the bigger issue to me, tariffs and sales or carbon trading issues? I think you can guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:11 AM

DmcG The real reason is the refusal of the Commons to deliver the Brexit both parties promised in their last election manifesto. Any economic uncertainties resulting from their intransigence is clearly their fault.
Trying to deflect blame onto the Blameless Brexiteers, who only seek a democratic outcome, simply will not fly. (Just see what happens Sunday night)

But the anticipated character assassination of Farage is delivering untold thousands of extra votes into the Brexit camp.
Democracy shall prevail!

As the saying goes:

Every cloud has a silver lining ! (or MEP seat)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:18 AM

Of course, there are also those who see a silver lining and fail to notice a nasty big black cloud attached to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:38 AM

Back to Brexit more directly.

May's bold plan seems rejected on all sides and there is talk of not putting it before the House at all. Since I don't see a general election being entered into willingly, that really does put us in the no-deal or revoke territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:05 AM

BREX: 37% (+3)
LDEM: 19% (+2)
LAB: 13% (-2)
GRN: 12% (+1)
CON: 7% (-2)
CHUK: 4% (-)
UKIP: 3% (-)
YouGov, 19 - 21 May

Now high is brexit momma, 37% and rising.......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:11 AM

DMcG Unless something dramatic happens the 22 committee are going to indulge in the time honoured pastime of can kicking.

I did find the link below today. I feel it echoes the sentiments of many.


https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5099ba620f852d44f6fddf50d63af0fd23e051a506e21060667fd3e2fbb7e4f3.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 07:41 AM

May seems to have accepted the idea of a limited SECOND REFERENDUM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 19 - 07:48 AM

Interesting figures:
BREX: 37% (+3)
LDEM: 19% (+2)
LAB: 13% (-2)
GRN: 12% (+1)
CON: 7% (-2)
CHUK: 4% (-)
UKIP: 3% (-)
If those were repeated on the day, under the voting system used in Great Britain:
the first seat in any region would go to Brexit.
the second seat to Lib Dem,
the third to Brexit
the fourth to Labour
the fifth to Brexit
the sixth to Green
the seventh to Lib Dem
the eighth to Brexit
the ninth to Brexit
the tenth to Conservative (and it is only the South East which has 10 seats available. In any other British region the Conservatives would get no seats.
The above calculations are based on the percentages in the polls being repeated evenly across the country. It is possible that SNP & Plaid Cymru would also gain seats in Scotland/Wales.
Unlike 'first past the post' this shows that in most regions, a 37% vote is likely to receive much more than 37% recognition in terms of seats (66% in regions with only 3 seats, 60% in regions with 5 seats)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:04 AM

British Steel gone into receivership
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:08 AM

British Steel now in compulsory liquidation.

How typical of the Self-Servatives that, on the one hand, they can’t or won’t find 75 million to support what remains of our steel industry and the town that depends on it, yet they had no problem whatsoever, when they failed to win sufficient seats to form a government in the 2017 GE, stumping up over one BILLION with which to bribe the religious-nutcase terrorist-supporters of the DUP in order to hang on to power by their fingernails.

Absolutely disgusting treachery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:12 AM

Sorry for the cross-posting, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:17 AM

No need to apologise Al - you can never get enough good news !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:17 AM

@Nigel. The implications are interesting. I wonder how much of the LibDem vote materializes as shown, or is it simply still displaying as a protest vote against the two major parliamentary parties. I suspect some of that intent could spring to the brexit party.
Sunday night could yet spring surprises either way. Hatching eggs is subject to the fickle finger of fate, as are polls. (especially when several days will elapse in the UK between polling and the release of the results) Who will be watching the watchers?

I see Brown's false allegations concerning brexit funding have been seen to be unfounded. He must be congratulated for generating extra votes for TBP. The MSM are keeping that particular gem well hidden, while the EU are now getting in on the act with squeals of pesky Ruskie collusion.
That should generate a raft more votes for Brexit.

I wonder what the establishment has for a last minute attempt to destroy the Brexit party?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:20 AM

A small nuclear device on Old Haddock-Face’s house would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:25 AM

The usual abysmal standard of rhetoric off remainiacs I see.

Anyone for a milkshake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:36 AM

Everything that is wrong with the Brexit party and more

I wonder if our resident brexitaliban will let us know which of these sad excuses for politicians they voted for?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:43 AM

brexitaliban ??????

Is it not lefty reminiacs being charged with common assault and calling for acid attacks on fine upstanding Brexit politicians?

Oh Dear oh dear !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:48 AM

"Is it not lefty reminiacs being charged with common assault and calling for acid attacks on fine upstanding Brexit politicians?"
As usual you choose to ignore the violence that has already taken place as a result of using race and ethnic hatred to push through a policy that is steadily destroying the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:53 AM

The decent ones amongst us regard physical assaults on politicians as being totally unacceptable, no matter what the politician’s position may be. Attack them verbally by all means, but physically? Absolutely not!

I haven’t heard any Remainer calling Brexshiteers ‘traitors’, and calling for them to be ‘arrested, marched out, and shot’. However, there’s plenty of evidence on the internet of Brexshiteers saying precisely that about remainers - it's been directed at me a number of times by BrexShit Gammons on SM.

Greenhouses, stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 19 - 09:18 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:53 AM

The decent ones amongst us regard physical assaults on politicians as being totally unacceptable, no matter what the politician’s position may be. Attack them verbally by all means, but physically? Absolutely not!

A confusing statement from someone who had earlier said:
A small nuclear device on Old Haddock-Face’s house would be a good start.
I suppose a period of little over half-an-hour is too long to remember ones own comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 10:26 AM

Unlike 'first past the post' this shows that in most regions, a 37% vote is likely to receive much more than 37% recognition in terms of seats (66% in regions with only 3 seats, 60% in regions with 5 seats)

That's a good point, Nigel, though I am not sure about the first past the post part, since that allocates 100% of the seat to the highest percentage vote, even if that is 50% + one vote, which is the less representative possible before actually giving the seat to a minority of the voters.

But the general point is well made and often overlooked. The voting percentage is - for practical purposes - a continuous variable, whereas the number of seats, whether one or ten, is a discrete quantity. It follows that except by a fluke, under any voting scheme whatever, there will be a degree of mismatch between the percentage of votes and the percentage of seats. All the complicated proportional systems are aimed at reducing the mismatch, but that is difficult and is always a compromise in some fashion.

The YouGov polls consistently rate the Brexit Party higher than other polls, often by around 5%. That matters, and where the 5% ends up also matters. I think we will wait for the results before we get too carried away …

Last time I understand Farage and UKIP got 22 seats. At the time, Brexit was really of interest only to nerds. COnsequently, I would be surprised if the Brexit Party did not get considerably more, but it would, for me, have to be 28 or above to be particularly noteworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 10:53 AM

Correction if Wikipedia is to believed: in 2014 UKIP got 24 seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 11:01 AM

"22 seats"
The Brexit Klan (one hesitates to describe an unelected group of nutters a party) have obviously gone into Europe to wreck the EU - at present the EU boasts 751 elected members
Wonder what their chances are of bringing the EU down !!!
A standard sized fly swatter ought to do the trick

"Treasonous Mayhem:"
Somewhat "Anglophobic" eh what!!
What is it about Britain that inspires such self hatred from its supporters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 11:07 AM

Brexit was really of interest only to nerds … and to self declare: "UKIP was founded in 1993 by Alan Sked"

I went to one of his presentations, maybe around 1994. I wasn't convinced.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 11:17 AM

As of now the Brexit party holds 14MEP seats. Sunday that figure will change significantly if the polls are to be believed.
Along with Le Pens's party and others there will be a useful block of seats to stall the march of further integration within the EU.
No amount of chittering will alter this inescapable reality, neither will ridiculous labels such as the brexit clan dreamed up by those that endlessly demonstrate that they are totally incapable of reasoned responses.

A sea change is coming- anyone for a ride on the skylark? The blue is a rather fetching colour!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 11:50 AM

"Sunday that figure will change significantly if the polls are to be believed."
Yeah - should be able to pick up six or seven hundred seats with no problem
Good luck with that one - I don't think so !!!
LePen
Just what Europe needs - a parliament full of Jew-haters
Nice to see you've kicked down yet another door to your closet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 12:10 PM

”A confusing statement from someone who had earlier said:
A small nuclear device on Old Haddock-Face’s house would be a good start.
I suppose a period of little over half-an-hour is too long to remember ones own comments.”

When I wrote those two posts, I expected Iains to come on and play the clever-shit, but it was even beneath his doubtful dignity to stoop that low. He’s gone up a point or two in my estimation.

But good old Nitpicking-Nigs didnt let me down. You don’t understand the concept of wry humour do you, Nigs? Thought not.
Stick to nitpicking - it’s all you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 12:13 PM

"LePen"
Dave, if you're still there - I hope you can see the value of dragging this particular 'democrat supporter" out of his closet
Nothing like having confirmation from the horse's mouth as to where his sympathies really are
A BLAST FROM THE PAST
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 19 - 12:41 PM

It's blatantly obvious to everyone anyway, Jim. There is absolutely no point in reinforcing what even a blind man on a flying horse can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:02 PM

"It's blatantly obvious to everyone anyway, Jim."
Nothing beats dragging them into the Confessional Dave
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:11 PM

Le Pen versus Macron. Round 2


https://www.france24.com/en/20190521-le-pen-seeks-macrons-downfall-french-european-polls

Polls show Le Pen's party, now named the National Rally, winning about 22-24 percent the election, a slight edge over the centrist alliance that includes Macron's party. she proposes unpicking the bloc from the inside, rolling back its treaties and common rules and turning it into a "union of nation states" who act independently.
Gonna be some changes!
https://www.ecfr.eu/specials/scorecard/the_2019_European_election


https://www.politico.eu/article/european-election-2019-winners/

Polls show the overall election outcome is likely to yield the most fragmented Parliament in modern EU history, creating genuine suspense about the precise shape of a majority coalition and potentially giving small pro-EU parties, like the Greens, more influence than ever.

The poll numbers, unveiled on Monday, deliver an alarming — if not entirely shocking — wake-up call to the mainstream, pro-EU politicians who have controlled power in Brussels for decades, but have seemed flummoxed in recent years about how to push back against a rising populist and nationalist tide.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:17 PM

The Sun says: Nigel Farage 'trapped on Brexit bus due to people armed with milkshakes'

Monty Python lives!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:23 PM

The whisper is that the mayfly has been swatted.
Fact or fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:27 PM

At this moment? Fiction.

But by the time the 1922 committee ends, I expect a rule change to allow a confidence vote, then May gone either immediately, or staying in place until an election has been held.

"And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:40 PM

OK, so the 1922 committee ends with no vote change.

I suspect that was all about the EU elections - would changing the voting rules make people more likely to vote Tory (in the belief a Brexiteer will be the next leader), or less (because Tories look as if they are panicking).

Tough call for them, but as Brady is meeting with May on Friday, and they can meet anytime to change the rules if they wish, it looks like they decided to go for more stable look.

Not that it clear May is on the way out on Friday either. Could just be a nice chat over a biscuit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:53 PM

Waiting to see what the results are I would guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 19 - 01:54 PM

It is now suggested that May will go by Monday
I'm sue this will make make the patriotic extremists happy to leave Britain without a leader, a totally divided Government Party, a dangerously split British people, no idea whatever how or if Britain will leave Europe and the possibility that a the future of the country will be left in the hands of morons like Lord Snooty (with guidance from his nanny or Boris 'The Joke' Johnson'
Never thought I'd say thins but May, for all her faults, is the only one to have shown a shred of responsibility and leadership in all this
Next to her, they are all snapping jackals   
Maybe you can ask your friend LePen to fly in a substitute Iains ?

"Polls show Le Pen's party, now named the National Rally, winning about 22-24 percent the election, a slight edge over the centrist alliance that includes Macron's party"
Hope the French Jews are packing their suitcases - 74,000 of them were sent to death camps last time the likes of LePen were in charge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:54 PM

Hmm ..............

Any good news about Brexit.

I am sorry to keep asking the question but to date it has not been answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:05 PM

Any good news about Brexit.

I am sorry to keep asking the question but to date it has not been answered.

And, as has been said many times, the good news about Brexit cannot come until Brexit has been achieved.
Until then, unlike remainers, I will not give forecasts of what may/may not happen.
We've all seen the failure of the pre-referendum prognostications of the remainers. Why should leavers try to match that level of incompetence?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:13 PM

OK, O Nitpicking One, how about telling us what you’re hoping will be some of the benefits of Brexit? That’s not ‘predicting’ is it?

Come on - show us there’s something in there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:17 PM

I thought I would have a look at the leaflets that the various official and unofficial leave groups issued to see what was promised would happen as a result of voting leave. I thought this was especially good:

Relations will be friendlier after we vote leave.

After we VOTE leave, note. Not after we leave.

I wonder who thinks that has come about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:25 PM

Bwaaaaaaaahh-ha-ha-haahh! About as much sense as any of the other BS the Brexshitters put out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:08 PM

Brilliant work, mod(s). It's regrettable that you have to do it. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 19 - 02:51 AM

The Andrea Leadsom resignation is an interesting one. With May possibly going Friday or Monday, I can't see many people dashing forward to label themselves as the enabler of the legislation knowing an strong opponent of it is likely to get May's role. Fancy a job for a day or two that risks casting you into darkness for the rest of your political life?   On the other hand, the government can't continue without a means of formally introducing bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 19 - 02:59 AM

"And, as has been said many times, the good news about Brexit cannot come until Brexit has been achieved."
That's not the way our system works Nigel
Everything, from industrial development to investment, depends entirely on planning in advance - Britain has had no game plan and was slated for not having one from the very beginning
There has been no alternative to being a member of the EU put into place or even discussed - irresponsible economic and political insanity from the start - like saying, "I'm going on holiday; I'll decide where to when I get there".
There has not even been a movement in the direction of future planning - on the contrary - the chaos of Brexit has systematically destroyed both industry and investment -
RATS DESERTING THE SINKING SHIP
NO PLANNING ON THIS
OR THIS
AND THIS IS WHAT THEY WILL BE RETURNING TO
CONFIRMED HERE

Wait and see - are you mad !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:08 AM

But, but, but...Jim... 70 million Turks, ‘Take Are Cuntry Back’, ‘easy’ trade deals, £350 million, unicorns! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:23 AM

There is a particularly funny article by Tom Peck, sketch writer for the Independent today. One of the gems:


"Even some of the nation's most senior news broadcasters have admitted that, if a prime minister resigns on an election day, when strict broadcasting rules are in place, they are not completely sure if they will even be allowed to mention it."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:40 AM

Everyone but you understands what Raggytash is asking, Nigel. Almost every article, prediction, analysis and report indicates that leaving the EU will be bad for the UK. We are looking for anything that gives us hope that it will not be as bad as they all say. To date neither you nor any other brexiteer has been able to point us to any such good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:43 AM

I am sure the MEP election results will be a font of joy to all!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:50 AM

I wonder why the mods allowed this piece of garbage to remain?


Maybe you can ask your friend LePen to fly in a substitute Iains ?

"Polls show Le Pen's party, now named the National Rally, winning about 22-24 percent the election, a slight edge over the centrist alliance that includes Macron's party"
Hope the French Jews are packing their suitcases - 74,000 of them were sent to death camps last time the likes of LePen were in charge
Jim Carroll

Permitting "untouchables" destroys the credibility of the entire site and drives people away.

The post was deleted for pollution above the line yesterday. Why not below the line as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesLet us remind ture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 19 - 04:11 AM

Let us remind everyone how good the nicotine stained toad is at predictions shall we?

Farage's tweet about the steel industry

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 19 - 04:19 AM

If you gloat about Farage combining with LePen, (as you have) to take the European elections, you're stuck with it
The LePen family are notorious Fascists and are part of the rise of Neo-Fascism in Europe - not to be welcomed by anybody who cherishes democracy
Thanks to Brexit, Britain has its own racist problems to deal with - antisemitism is the last thing it needs, particularly at a time when the whole of British society has been weakened and divided by this insane, un-thought out leap in the dark
If you can't live with what you do, don't do it - simples
The post was deleted above the line - rightly - because you chose to bring arguments that were taking place here up there - maybe I shouldn't have responded to it - I'm delighted it has been removed (as was your posting which instigated the misplaced argument, by the way)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 19 - 04:20 AM

I am sure someone will be along shortly to point out that the claim was that voting remain would end the steel industry. It did not claim voting leave would save it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 19 - 06:16 AM

It's already Europe's fault Mac - it used to be lazy workers and bad management
I hava little doubt there'll be another one along in a minute to confirm that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 07:30 AM

HIGNFY seem to have their finger on the pulse!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 07:49 AM

And Jonathan Pie has got the likes of Haddock-Face, and UKIP with their new pin-up boy, Tommy Robinson, weighed up, hasn’t he?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 19 - 08:12 AM

BWM - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 08:44 AM

What I find ludicrous is that, pre-Referendum, simple-minded people believed everything Farage told them, and voted for what he stood for - when, in fact, he hadn’t a clue how to bring Brexit about, no plan whatsoever. So he and his cronies did their ‘Run For The Hills’ routine and left the rest of us with Mayhem.

Now here he is again, still no clue, no plan, nothing - and the bumpkins are queueing up to vote his way again!

What was it Einstein said about insanity?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 19 - 11:13 AM

Meanwhile back to Brexit. It would seem that European residents in the UK are being denied the right to vote in the EU elections because of administration errors.

I wonder what our resident Brexiteers have to say about this complete lack of democracy.

Could someone please link to the Guardian article entitled 'EU Citizens in UK complain of being denied right to vote'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 11:27 AM

Here you go, Raggy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 May 19 - 11:54 AM

'complete lack of democracy.'

At least they are even handed about it.

Expats fear postal votes will not count

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 12:29 PM

Just in case any of the Bumpkins have a couple of brain-cells that actually work, here’s something for them to get their daft heads around...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 19 - 12:47 PM

Thats not balance. EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU are the same kind of people, people who are open to immersing themselves in other cultures, people who have used freedom of movement to improve their lives. People who think for themselves. And thus more likely to vote for progressive parties rather than the reactionary forces of the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:44 PM

Well one of the most broad-minded and balanced people I ever met was a old vicar and botanist from Oldham who hardly ever left Lancashire (as was), though I did climb Penyghent with him once when he was 77 to find the purple saxifrage. So you never can tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:46 PM

Those are contract workers, people who form an isolated expatriate community. I have worked with those too and they are often extremely reactionary, especially towards the culture of the country in which they work. I am talking about people who decide to move to, live in, and become part of, a different culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:47 PM

It was rumoured the 22 committee would shift the PM out of downing Street by Friday. The latest update is that it will probably require 22 SAS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:52 PM

Be careful what you wish for...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 May 19 - 02:05 PM

Those are contract workers, people who form an isolated expatriate community.
Some are, some are not.

they are often extremely reactionary, especially towards the culture of the country in which they work.

Try being reactionary in the Middle East, Parts of Africa and SE Asia and you can share a very dodgy jail cell.

You obviously only traveled in touristy places in more "enlightened" parts of the world.

Take it from me, if you are in Dodge City you keep your mouth shut, and your opinions to yourself. Or suffer the consequences!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:28 PM

Ah well Steve, thats a Vicar, who will be anticipating an even larger move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 19 - 03:58 PM

He was a very earthy sort of chap, David. He actually shared my surname, though we weren't related, so there's a clue. He was a big mate of Roy Lancaster, another great bloke who started out working in the park next to my school in Bolton. On one occasion by the canal in Radcliffe. when I was but a callow and youthful botanist, he espied me looking up a plant in an identification guide. "What are you doing?" he demanded. "Er, just looking this up...." "Well chuck bloody book away. You'll never learn owt from a book!"

He was right!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 19 - 05:21 PM

That was the vicar who said that, not Roy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 19 - 06:59 PM

So, several hours have passed and not one of our resident Brexiteers have commented on the disgrace that Europeans resident in the UK are being denied the opportunity to vote in a most important event.

I can't help but think this may be because those people MAY vote remain.

Those Brexiteers who rattle on about Democracy, who castigate some of us who would prefer a second referendum, those of us who   acknowledge that almost 2 millions people (who will be most affected by any decision) did not, and will not, have a say in the matter because they were not old enough 3 years ago to have a vote.

Democracy................ my a***!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 19 - 02:07 AM

Raggy, I seem to recall that comments were made but, as is so often the case, one or more of the posters resorted to abuse and the post(s) were removed by the Mods.

Apologies if I’m mistaken - I’ve read a lot of ‘stuff’ about this issue over the past 24 hours so I might be confusing this forum with other sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 19 - 02:17 AM

There was a comment, which I paraphrase as a shrug of the shoulders and 'mistakes happen'. Certainly a long way short of an insistence on everyone's right to democratic representation.

Not exactly a defence I would like to rely on if this potential case comes to anything: UK government may face court action after EU citizens denied vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 02:50 AM

Labour party looks like front runner in Holland
Wilder's fascists lost three of its four seats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:02 AM

Green party making good headway in Germany. Looks like some people have learned the lessons of the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:28 AM

Fingers Crossed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 19 - 04:43 AM

Even the Guardian bows to reality:

'Swept up on a tide': disaffected voters flock to Brexit party across north-west


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/24/disaffected-voters-boost-brexit-party-across-north-west

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 19 - 05:27 AM

PM given the boot. Good!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 19 - 07:10 AM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson has, very fortunately, just been offered a job in Rotterdam. We are very tempted....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 19 - 07:29 AM

Wonder who the DUP will choose to be the next Tory leader and PM? Methinks I foresee another huge bung going their way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 08:14 AM

As bad as May is, it's odds on that the next one will be worse
The gloating over her going by the Pen pusher (pun intended) and no doubt from those who forced her resignation is an indication of how low her party has sunk at a time when Britain needs leadership
A public dog-fight rather than a government
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:56 AM

EU says the agreement is still closed and the parliamentary arithmetic is unaltered.


What is the magic phrase again? Ah, yes, nothing has changed.

Of course, a new leader may be more willing to bring no-deal to the house. But whatever they may say, if they have even a slight doubt that to get the promised land there is a lot of pain to go through, few will want to get the blame for the pain...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 19 - 12:55 PM

It all ends in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 May 19 - 04:38 PM

My feet and legs are almost recovered from another polling day. I am disgusted that May did not confirm the European election a month or two earlier, I have yet to see figures for the number of EU voters domiciled in the UK did not have their voting rights paperwork confirmed by their local authorities - could run to a five or 6 figure number.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:21 AM

I read an article yesterday which I cannot now find, which is annoying. It was, if I remember correctly, from the electoral commission explaining, but in no way excusing, why so many EU nationals here and abroad were excluded. In short, it was because administratively an EU election is very different to a local or general election, so they can't just replicate what they do for other elections. But because May refused to admit the elections were happening no funds were released to do the work, which led to a lot of stuff being done under extreme pressure with no time for proper consideration.

The author was absolutely straight that it was not good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:54 AM

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums


Are government reports subject to censorship on mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:16 AM

As far as I remember the "explainations" you linked to said 'administrative error'. The article goes a level beyond that saying how did the administrative errors come about. Root cause analysis and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 07:52 AM

So far The Green Party seems to have done the best in yesterday's both local and European elections
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 10:23 AM

So far The Green Party seems to have done the best in yesterday's both local and European elections
Jim Carroll

How can you possibly know how well the Greens have done (or seem to have done) in the European elections? There is supposed to be a moratorium on anyone giving exit polls, or similar, until all Europe have had the chance to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 10:33 AM

"How can you possibly know how well the Greens have done (or seem to have done) in the European elections? "
Sorry - should have said "in Ireland" - they are assessing the results now
We had two/three (depending where you live) elections happening here yesterday - local council, E.U., and a referendum on divorce
The figures were an assessment of all of them
If letting the cat out of the bag in advance - fairl play as far as I'm concerned
The ruthlessness and dishonesty that has been part of the Eu farce outweighs any lapses in protocol that has given fascism a toe-hold in Europe
It is to the shame of people like you that you've stood by silently and allowed it to happen - we thought we'd seen the back of those bastards after so many gave their lives 70 odd years ago
What are you people thinking Nigel !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 01:55 PM

What are you people thinking Nigel !!!
I'm thinking that even the population of Northern Ireland should be bound by the same restrictions as the rest of Europe. (not just UK)
You may believe that Ireland is a 'special case'. 'Heads up', it isn't!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:00 PM

"You may believe that Ireland is a 'special case'. 'Heads up', it isn't!"
Nothing to do with Northern Ireland Nige - you've opened the door to fascism by supporting mob-rule
I hope you'll forgive yourself - I doubt if anybody else will if the European fascists form the coalition they are aiming to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:02 PM

And I've just taken a copy of the last four postings in case someone thinks it shows the Remain campaign in a bad light, and gets it deleted.
I'm getting pissed off with the ability of remainers to get this discussion altered to look as if they have the only valid arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:53 PM

"I'm getting pissed off with the ability of remainers to get this discussion altered to look as if they have the only valid arguments."
Are you really suggesting te Mods are remainers Nige
You disappoint me - you're as bad as the rest of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:20 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:00 PM
"You may believe that Ireland is a 'special case'. 'Heads up', it isn't!"
Nothing to do with Northern Ireland Nige - you've opened the door to fascism by supporting mob-rule
I hope you'll forgive yourself - I doubt if anybody else will if the European fascists form the coalition they are aiming to
Jim Carroll
My comment was related to your posting what you believe to be news about the EU polling results:
"How can you possibly know how well the Greens have done (or seem to have done) in the European elections? "
Sorry - should have said "in Ireland" - they are assessing the results now
Ireland are under the same restrictions as the rest of the EU about publishing results/polls until 10pm Sunday.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:53 PM

"I'm getting pissed off with the ability of remainers to get this discussion altered to look as if they have the only valid arguments."
Are you really suggesting te Mods are remainers Nige
No, Jimmy I'm suggesting that the mods are following guidance from remainers who are pushing their own agenda, and are contacting moderators to get this discussion altered.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:50 PM

And the steel industry has gone to the wall because Australia has devastated its own environment (thereby totally avoiding the financial crisis that the rest of us suffered) in order to supply unlimited iron ore to China. China then uses cheap labour to flood the world with cheap steel. And we can't do anything because China makes most of our stuff. That's the way the world is going.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:00 PM

Don't blame it on Australia.
Until last year a large amount of 'scrap metal' was going from UK to China, giving them the opportunity to recycle it and re-sell it to UK & America. Some details : Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:12 PM

No blame, just narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:40 PM

No mod is following any guidance from anyone and I'm getting a bit sick of these insupportable attacks on them. I don't know how many mods operate on this board, but I only know three of them. Two of them dislike me intensely and I've had many a spat. The other is neutral and doesn't engage with me at all easily, though (I think) we enjoy at least a bit of mutual respect. Whatever else, they are all very strong-minded individuals. I have little idea as to which one monitors this thread but if they're taking "guidance" well all I can say is that it isn't coming from me. I'd like to suggest that, whilst enquiry of mods may well be legitimate, public criticism of them is rarely if ever justifiable. It's a good job I'm not one, because if I was I would not tolerate some of the nonsensical and illiberal criticism we see coming from Iains, bobad and Nigel Parsons.

And this will be deleted. But I've got it off my chest anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:50 PM

As far as anyone outside the Mods group knows, the only person who ‘gives guidance’ to the Mods is Max Spiegel who, as the owner of this site, is bloody well entitled to do so without criticism from our resident Right-Wing extremists, abusers, and bully-boys.

There have been a number of my posts deleted but, being an adult, I accept it without the pissing and moaning we’re seeing from the above-mentioned individuals.

Perhaps if those people were to GTFU, and behave like decent, civilised human beings, this forum would be a far nicer place.

And, if this post disappears, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:07 PM

The only problem I have with deleted posts is that other posts responding to them do not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:57 PM

Well, SPB, you can delete vexatious posts but that leaves a legacy of hanging posts that require a rather large input of time in order to deal with them. I wouldn't complain. The priority is to get the poison out, and I think we can all be man/woman/person enough to deal with the residue. Now, interesting sideline though this is, I think we should try to talk about brexit from now on, insane though that suggestion might be...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 19 - 01:59 AM

It would make more sense to delay further discussion of brexit until the outcome of the recent EU voting is known. Why conjecture when in a few hours absolute facts can be used.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:51 AM

"I think we should try to talk about brexit from now on, insane though that suggestion might be..."

And, of course, fastidiously ignore the RWE bully-boys, trouble-makers, and nit-pickers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 03:45 AM

There will be no clarity from the results of the EU elections - everyone will spin the results as the always do. Few doubt the Brexit Party will get a high percentage but that is hardly significant in itself, since it potentially had at 17.4 million to draw on (plus some percentage of people who didn't vote). There is a good case that getting less than 52% of the vote shows no deal to be not what people voted for, for example.

The results will be spun by all sides. Have no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 19 - 04:55 AM

Better get the groundwork in early then. Historically the UK has a low turnout for EU elections,like much of Eastern Europe.


http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:01 AM

Turnout does not affect percentages of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:44 AM

Turnout does not affect percentages of course.

I have no doubt this will form the basis of numerous arguments revolving around:

Total population
Total enfranchised
Total who bothered to vote

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 19 - 10:42 AM

"the EU about publishing results/polls until 10pm Sunday"
No polls published Nige - just predictions
The Greens seem to have come out best - thank christ Farage's headbangers got trounced
"No, Jimmy I'm suggesting that the mods are following guidance from remainers "
What a strange suggestion - why not take it up wwith the mods??
The mane's Jim by the way - only mental morons who have no other way of trying to talk you down use "Jimmy"
As much as I disagree with you, I don't place you among that company of one - don't let me down
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 May 19 - 11:12 AM

The mane's Jim by the way - only mental morons who have no other way of trying to talk you down use "Jimmy"
As much as I disagree with you, I don't place you among that company of one - don't let me down
I was not trying to talk down to you, just responding. I have also made clear in the past that my name is 'Nigel'. I have avoided misusing your name since you earlier made it clear you only wished to be called 'Jim'. My response was to your use (as in your last post) of 'Nige'.
I will now start referring to you as 'Jim' again, on the assumption that you can show the same consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:06 PM

As polls start to close across the EU, counting in UK starts.
Early showings of percentage turnout for some UK regions are being posted in The Guardian
Predictions based on exit polls are also given for some countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:19 PM

Marine Le Pen for the R.N. party in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:21 PM

The current prediction - and that is all it is - is that the Brexit Party will get exactly what UKIP got last time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:23 PM

In terms of seats that is. The percentage vote is predicted to be a few percent higher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:32 PM

John Howarth MEP (Labour) has sent an email to me and presumably hundreds of others. He could not have been more scathing of "the Labour High command" and says if they had deliberately set out to lose the election they could have have been more successful at it. Really startlingly strong condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 May 19 - 06:32 PM

Anyone watching the results? Has reality landed? I bet that very few people here will take the result as a substitute for a second referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 19 - 06:57 PM

You should worry. Sure, there's a massive protest vote going on. But in almost every result I've seen so far, the votes for Labour plus LibDem plus Green plus ChangeUK far outweigh the votes for Brexit plus Tories. Also, as ever, turnout numbers are low. Make whatever predictions you like, but a referendum tomorrow would yield a remain vote. Which is why you don't want one. As it happens, neither do I, but hey ho. Tonight may change the debate, but the debate is shite anyway, and it's a rock-solid cert that the next parliament will contain not a single Brexit party MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 May 19 - 08:31 PM

Alliances may or may not be formed by the elected parties. Otherwise it's either the electoral results or "lies, damned lies and statistics".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 19 - 08:45 PM

The electoral results are what I referred to, nothing to do with "alliances." There is nothing tonight in the numbers that brexiteers can take comfort from. Which is precisely why you chaps are scared shitless of another referendum. Bray all you like about Labour/Tories getting a kicking. But the bald fact is that Labour plus Libdems plus Greens plus SNP plus ChangeUK far outweigh the dedicated brexit parties, even if you lump the Tories in with them. On top of that, it's protest voting on a low turnout. Extrapolate at your peril.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 May 19 - 08:47 PM

You are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 19 - 09:01 PM

From the Guardian at 1.18 am:

"Potentially most significantly, the share of the two unambiguously pro-Brexit parties – the Brexit party and Ukip – was 34.9%, markedly lower than the aggregate total of the pro-second referendum parties (the Lib Dems, Greens, Change UK, the Scottish National party and Plaid) at 40.3%."

And I'd add to that that most people who voted Labour (not included in the GuRdian's assessment) would have been remainers, as the vast majority of those who have jumped the Labour ship would have shifted to the Brexit brigade. And it's a bloody good bet that the majority of those who stayed loyal to the Tories were the Tory remainers. So that 40.3% was actually quite a lot higher. Be very afraid, Brexiteers. Especially of a second referendum!

I'm dealing with the solid numbers here, Stanron. Telling me I'm "wrong" without qualification is, frankly, puerile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 May 19 - 09:13 PM

From

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/26/european-elections-2019-results-maps-brexit-party-expected-win/

Brexit party    28 seats
Lib Dems       15 seats
Labour          10 seats
Green Party    7 seats
Conservatives   3 seats ouch
others          1 seat

To suit your arguments you move the goal posts to where you shot the ball. In any other context this would be called cheating.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 May 19 - 10:18 PM

The reality of the outside world will never perforate the bubble on this forum. Anything they do not like they delete.
They cannot delete brexit though.

Party       Vote Share Brexit Stance                         EU Seats

Brexit Party 31.6%    OUT                                    28
Lib Dem 21.3%         In                                     15
Labour 14.1%          God Knows they certainly dont.         10
Green 12.1%          Mainly IN                              7
Conservative 9.1%    Inveterate liars (some in/some out)    3
Plaid Cymru 1%       In                                     1
SNP 3.5%             In
Change UK 3.4%       In
UKIP 3.3%             OUT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 May 19 - 10:39 PM

I interpret that as

Party                   Out             In

Bredxit                28 seats
Lib Dems                               15
Lab ? 50/50 5                            5
Green In                                 7
Conservative            3   
Welsh Nationalists In                   1

totals                  31             28

Not a million miles away from the referendum result.

Maybe we should vote again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 May 19 - 11:04 PM

Last two posts are a jumble. If you are going to post tabular data, surround it with <pre></pre>

  Party                   Out      In
  
  Bredxit                  28 
  Lib Dems                         15
  Lab ? 50/50               5       5
  Green In                          7
  Conservative              3   
  Welsh Nationalists In             1
  
  totals                   31      28
  

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 19 - 01:29 AM

Let's not forget these are Europe-wide elections. I think this clip from the Guardian has it about right:

A more complicated, ad hoc, but still fairly comfortable pro-European, mainstream majority is, naturally, a somewhat less exciting narrative than a tidal wave of populism sweeping away the foundations of the EU. But it looks like that is the outcome of these elections.

Taking a more parochial view, the Brexit Party has undoubtedly done well, and it looks like they will reach at least 29 or 30 seats. That is at the top end of my estimates (which were based on recalling UKIP had 22 seats rather than the actual 24, but let's not quibble.).

To me, that says the future path of the U.K. now rests on the anonymous, probably Tory, MP who is genuinely certain that to leave with no deal would be a disaster for the country but also is from an area which has just voted for the Brexit Party in large numbers. Such an MP is also probably aware that if his or her sincere belief in the problems of a no deal come to pass, the Brexit Party voters would blame the MP, not themselves.

What these MPs choose to do will be critical.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 19 - 02:39 AM

As far as I could see before I went to bed, most of the Brexit party gains were from UKIP. If they had no rebranded themselves it would have been a very good gain for UKIP but far from the landslide that the press are reporting.

Far more significant are the gains made by the pro-remain factions of LibDem, Green and the SNP. Both main parties suffered because of their stance, or non stance, on Brexit.

Europe wide the picture seems similar. Everyone is cheesed off with main stream politics. The populist right wing and the Greens have both done well because of this.

It seems that when a power vacuum is left by the mainstream, sensible people vote to save the planet while the easily led vote for those who tell them what they want to hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 19 - 04:03 AM

A good and very fair review. In my opinion

From Sir John Curtice, professor of politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 19 - 05:45 AM

The turnout was under 37%, just about half of the referendum turnout. Any analysis should include that in the reckoning, especially by those who would like to view this as another referendum on brexit. Trying to make your case by counting seats is far less safe than counting the numbers who voted for remain parties versus leave parties, the latter being far more in sync with what we did in the referendum. Even if you count all the Tory votes as leave (unsafe) and all the Labour votes as remain (less unsafe but still a bit too blunt), it's clear that leave would struggle in another referendum. Which is precisely why leave don't want one, whatever burbling you hear from them about its "betraying democracy," etc. Basically, what seems to have happened is that the Brexit party mopped up almost all the Ukip vote plus a few disaffected Tory leavers and probably far fewer disaffected Labour leavers, whereas the remain protest vote went to the Greens and the LibDems. A lot of protest voting on a low turnout informs little about the way politics will go in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 19 - 05:54 AM

I would definitely dispute your 50/50 Labour guesstimate, Jon. Most Labour voters are remainers. Some of the minority "leave" Labourites would have jumped ship to the Brexit party, but I suspect that a far larger number of "remain" Labourites would have gone to the LibDem/Green side. Most of those who stayed with Labour would have been remain voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 19 - 05:58 AM

Strange, innit? The BrexShitters are soiling their boxers in case we have another referendum, but they’re happy to accept the EU elections as, effectively, a referendum ‘confirming’ the original referendum!

You really couldn’t make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 19 - 06:07 AM

I would definitely dispute your 50/50 Labour guesstimate,

The in out shake it all about hoky coky party.

Who knows what their brexit stance is?

They certainly do not

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 19 - 06:15 AM

A large majority of Labour voters voted remain. If you were a minority leave Labour voter, you either stayed Labour or went Brexit party. If you were a majority remain Labour voter, you either stayed Labour or went LibDem/Green. It's a pretty fair guess that much or most of the large LibDem/Green gain came from Labour protest voters. And it's a pretty fair guess that most of the voters who stayed Labour are remainers. Denial is useless: leave would struggle if we held another referendum. Especially with these Tory bubbletwits going large on the impossible no deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 19 - 06:38 AM

Interesting that the highest turnout was in remain areas. From this it can be read that having voted for a referendum to leave already, a fair number of brexiteers refused to play in this election.
Now doubt they are saving their efforts for the forthcoming general election.

This is assuming Steptoe senior can manage a no confidence vote, after all the electorate have already demonstrated their zero confidence in both major parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 19 - 08:25 AM

Perhaps, Steve. But we can't really know. Some people who voted Labour may be in favour of leaving, but strongly opposed to no deal. There are few homes for such people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 19 - 09:03 AM

65% of Labour voters voted remain in 2016. A poll commissioned by Hope Not Hate suggests that 1.4 million Labour leave voters have changed their minds. That alone would reverse the result. Brexiteers are desperate to avoid another referendum, and their fear has nothing to do with "betraying democracy."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 19 - 09:27 AM

Brexit has won 9 of 11 regions. According to electoral calculus, had it been a General Election Brexit would have taken 446 seats - a resounding majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 May 19 - 10:16 AM

Does anyone know the Brexit partys policy on defence, housing, education, health service, security, welfare, climate etc etc


.......................??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 May 19 - 11:05 AM

does anyone know their policy on providing a brexit that works for anyone except the nicotine stained man frog?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 19 - 11:48 AM

Well it wasn't a general election, the turnout was little more than half of a typical general election turnout, Brexit is not a political party that has ever had a general election manifesto and, once brexit has been settled one way or another, the party will lose its raison d'être. Brexiteers today are in denial about the rather obstinate fact that they are now in a minority. Mid-term protest voting is time-honoured in this country and it's also time-honoured that hopeful parties that have benefited like to tell us that politics have changed forever. For sure, Labour has misjudged this severely. I agreed with the sentiment expressed by Emily Thornberry last night. Jezza may have his doubts about the EU (I mean, who hasn't?), but he has to start listening to his membership and Labour voters. We overwhelmingly don't want brexit, Jeremy. That's your starting point, and you got a very sharp reminder of that last night. The biggest Marxist I know voted LibDem last week. Bloody Nora...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 19 - 12:07 PM

Sorry about the blank post.

I was also going to say converting this result into a 'general election equivalent' is meaningless. As I said earlier, and echoing the comments on policies, if Farage became PM we can suppose on day 1 he writes to the EU and says that's it, goodbye, we are now on WTO rules. Fine. Now what does he do on day 2 for the next five years? No one has been told. I would hope even the most ardent Brexiteer who thinks at all would find that an unacceptable state of affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 19 - 01:14 PM

As I pointed out earlier, there is all the talk of the massive gains by the Brexit party and no mention of the total wipeout of UKIP. If you offset one against the other there has been a modest gain for leave. Compared to the gains made by pro remain SNP, LibDem and Green, it is nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 19 - 01:23 PM

In the local council elections the Tories lost 1300 seats and Labour instead of picking up 500 seats managed to lose 500.
The Brexit Party formed several weeks ago won the highest number of seats of any EU party in the EU elections.

The Brexit party is to the Tories and Labour as The Black Death was to the Middle Ages!

No amount of pin dancing, or deleting of posts will alter that blindingly obvious truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 19 - 02:33 PM

Interesting - and very disturbing - letters In The Guardian 19/5/19.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 02:46 AM

In so far as Farage has another policy, it seems to be 'direct democracy', which is providing a mechanism to enable the general population to instruct the government what to do. It is really easy to present this as if it were a good idea, but it is incredibly dangerous. Democracy needs more than the ability to reflect the views of the populus - it needs then to be informed and to take account of the trade-offs. And it needs time to reflect to ensure all the trade offs have been properly considered. Lynch mobs were/are direct democracy. The attacks on the Jews in the Nazi era were direct democracy. Getting NICE to approve a cancer drug for treatment that costs £200,000 a course while not taking into account that is now twenty hip replacements per time that cannot now be afforded is an example of direct democracy.

But even worse than that: direct democracy is extremely vulnerable to advertising campaigns and social media manipulation: the cancer treatment example is an example of that in action - such a campaign is almost always behind the change of decision by NICE. And that means direct democracy is in many cases indirect dictatorship. The person who funds and runs the campaigns gets to pick the topics and with enough pressure often the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 19 - 03:59 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 22 May 19 - 10:26 AM
Last time I understand Farage and UKIP got 22 seats. At the time, Brexit was really of interest only to nerds. COnsequently, I would be surprised if the Brexit Party did not get considerably more, but it would, for me, have to be 28 or above to be particularly noteworthy.

Howsabout 29?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 04:01 AM

You seem to have missed my post of 27 May 19 - 01:29 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 19 - 04:40 AM

My apologies. Missed it I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 19 - 06:44 AM

Can anyone explain to me why the brexit and UKIP combined vote of 34.9% versus 40.39% polled by the pro-remain parties is an indication that we should leave the EU?

I have not counted Labour and Tory as either BTW

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 19 - 06:56 AM

I refer you to the events of June 2016, in case you have forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 07:27 AM

Can anyone explain to me why the brexit and UKIP combined vote of 34.9% versus 40.39% polled by the pro-remain parties is an indication that we should leave the EU?

Slight of hand, really. The Brexit Party is being reported as if it had no connection with UKIP, and so the 29 seats gained is as if it had none before. Not true of course: even some of the UKIP MEPs had switched to the Brexit Party before the elections, I believe.

No one ever treated New Labour as if it were a completely new party, for the very good reason it wasn't. The same is really true of UKIP/Brexit. Both were/are really "The Nigel Farage Election Vehicle Party".

Then of course the media really does want to report a story, so the percentage voting for the Brexit Party is a good one, and quite a sensible one to discuss, at that. But approach it more calmly and you are right, the fact that is that a clear 'remain' stance did gain more seats.

As I said before the election, this result will not bring clarity and both sides will spin things to look as if they won. Nothing unusual there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 19 - 07:49 AM

DMcG - sincere apologies in advance for going into 'Nigel' mode, but it's sleight of hand.

Not my fault, it was The Pedant in Me wot made me do it! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 07:54 AM

Indeed it is. I would like to say we live and learn, but I don't guarantee either!

(When I was in primary school I used to do some conjuring in an 'end of school year' party we had. So this looks a clear case of 'we live and forget')

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 19 - 08:32 AM

LOL! Or ‘Dyslexic Fingers’ - my usual excuse for mis-spellings in pieces I’ve typed! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 19 - 08:37 AM

Change hands...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 19 - 08:37 AM

I see that Paul Staines has initiated an unofficial pro-Boris campaign. I wonder whether Bozza will dissociate himself from it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 19 - 09:15 AM

I think it needs to be remembered that The Brexit Party is an ad-hoc set up made up of rejacted Ukip, which collapsed because they proved themselves unfit too be taken seriously, and fortified by the dregs of the Tory right - including some of
They are a one-policy party who will have no reason to continue to exist when (an if) Britain leaves Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 19 - 09:18 AM

Didn't quite finish
ONE OF THE MOST POSITIVE OF THE RESULTS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 11:38 AM

So Cleverley and Malthouse have decided they could be PM now. Let me know when 5% of all Tory MPs are in the ring …

I am not sure how many backers you need to stand for PM, or whether there is a formal minimum, but is getting to be a bit silly now. If we aren't careful we will run out of time to get the choice whittled down to the two to ask party members to vote on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 19 - 11:50 AM

Maybe they still haven't got enough to change a light bulb.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 19 - 12:06 PM

They can't change light bulbs. It takes one to book a man to do It and the rest to make money out of the transaction...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 12:22 PM

From a Guardian live feed:

=====
John Bercow, the Speaker of the House of Commons, has warned
Conservative leadership candidates that they will not be able to force through a no deal Brexit without parliament’s approval.
Speaking in New York, he gave a clear sign that the speaker would make sure parliament has an opportunity to stop the UK leaving without a deal if MPs believe it should be halted.
"The idea that parliament is going to be evacuated for the centre stage of debate on Brexit is simply unimaginable...The idea the House won’t have its say is for the birds," he said.
He highlighted the fact that while leaving the EU without a deal is
the legal default: "There is a difference between a legal default position and what the interplay of different political forces in parliament will facilitate."
=====

So much for the idea by Rabb (or perhaps just his supporters) that Parliament could be prorogued can be quietly forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 19 - 01:18 PM

They are a one-policy party who will have no reason to continue to exist when (an if) Britain leaves Europe

Dream on squire! They are the largest party in the EU and will be around until we finally leave the EU and will fight the next General Election.

The idea that parliament is going to be evacuated for the centre stage of debate on Brexit is simply unimaginable...The idea the House won’t have its say is for the birds," he said.(Bercow)

Not quite what he said several months ago

"Labour MP Stephen Doughty asked Bercow in the Commons if a prorogation such as the one in 1948 could happen. The Speaker replied this would be “an unusual step”, but it was possible, although he had no idea whether the government had such plans" March 18th 2019
There would be a reluctance to do this as a Queen's speech would be required and there would thereby involve the monarchy. This is contrary to accepted procedures,where there is a presumption for parliamentary business to be carried out without involvement of the Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 01:46 PM

I am not sure that is what Bercow said on Marxh 18th. Here is the extract from Hansard:

Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for your statement today. The Government have gained an infamous historical reputation for trickery and abuse of Parliament during this whole process, and already rumours are going around that they might seek to use prorogation as a method of getting out of this. Can you confirm that that would not only provoke a greater constitutional crisis, but also result in us losing every single piece of legislation currently before both Houses, including many of the pieces of legislation needed to implement any Brexit?

Mr Speaker

If particular legislation was subject to carry-over, that would not apply, but in the expectation, let us say—or, to use a more neutral term, in the circumstance—that it was not subject to the carry-over procedure, manifestly and incontrovertibly it would fall. As for whether the Government are contemplating that, I have no way of knowing. No Minister has indicated that to me. I have no idea what is in their mind. It would be an unusual step, but look: I have been in this place a little over 20 years, and some quite unusual things have happened. I have no way of knowing whether this is being contemplated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 19 - 02:04 PM

It was a procedure last invoked in 1948 to quell rebellious Lords. If the government were to pursue such an unlikely step I would surmise there is precious little the speaker could do to thwart it.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/01/the-prime-minister-could-prorogue-parliament-but-almost-certainly-wont.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 19 - 02:35 PM

I will get told off if I stay on this, so this is the last post on the prorogatiin matter unless it becomes centre stage later.

In 1948 Parliament was preroged on 25 Octber until 26th Octiber. I.e. There was a 'reset' but apart from a nominal few hours both houses were sitting on the day before and the day after.

Most recently, prerogation was talked about as a mechanism to bring May's deal back again.

In both cases, the intention was to continue the work of the house with no significant gap in the times the houses were sitting.

In the idea being floated is that Parliament was preroged for the precise purpose of stopping it being able to work for some time around the 31 October. It would be days or weeks beforehand, because otherwise the house could attempt to introduce some form of action to amend the decision to leave without a deal. So it is completely opposite to the earlier examples: it is about thwarting the ability of Parliament to act, not enabling it.

Hence Bercow's informal comment that the idea is "for the birds."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 May 19 - 02:36 PM

I had to search what prorogation meant. For any others wondering try this

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/occasions/prorogation/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 May 19 - 02:41 PM

However prerogation is a differnt fish.

https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-essays/judicial-law/prerogative-powers-remain-an-important.php

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 19 - 05:04 PM

Message from Magid Magid


A ray of hope in the darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 19 - 02:24 AM

Magid Magid on BBC Breakfast right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 19 - 02:35 AM

Interesting article about Ol' Haddock-Face in the NYT yesterday, exposing him as 'the most dangerous man in Britain'.

Sounds right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 19 - 03:20 AM

Bercow plans to stay on as speaker until after October. What he will do if there is an extension beyond that is unclear, but based on the rationale for staying on, I expect he would stay on through a further extension as well if there was one.

Meanwhile the EU remains clear that the agreement will not be reopened, so anyone hoping to stand for PM based on renegotiating it is either just hoping the EU is bluffing or is asserting they will do something they know they can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 19 - 05:00 AM

I think at this stage a renegotiation is out. A second referendum is now required with the options...

Do you vote for

A) Keeping things as they are in Europe and fixing our own broken government or

B) Leaving the EU with no deal thereby fucking the UK economy for decades to come, screwing the peace in Ireland and breaking up the Union.

I am happy with that wording :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 19 - 06:36 AM

Johnson to face charges

Interesting to see how this one pans out for both the leave campaign and for his PM bid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 19 - 07:05 AM

It will also be interesting if, should the court eventually rule he knowingly lied whether our defenders of the bus quote will agree it was misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 19 - 07:28 AM

Had to smile a few minutes ago when, in a piece about the court case, the presenter on BBC News said that, "Mr Johnson's spokesman wasn't available for comment".

Why a 'spokesman'? Bozo didn't have any problem shooting his big, blabbering gob off at every possible opportunity during the BrexShit Referendum campaign, why can't he speak for himself now?

Presumably it's the effect of the big yellow stripe down his back - the same one that make him soil his boxers and run for the hills on the morning after the Referendum, when the horrible truth dawned on him that his slogans, soundbites, and barefaced lies, had actually won it for the Leavers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 May 19 - 08:39 AM

Obviously it's a 'nobble' job. That part of the establishment who fear the results of Boris in power are using this to disqualify him from being leader. Out with the popcorn. Let's see how this develops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 May 19 - 09:11 AM

What I didn't mention in my last post is the possibility that Boris might have 'nobbled' himself. Whoever wins the leadership competition faces two possible outcomes.

1. We leave the EU and nearly 50% of the UK hates the result and the person who got the result.

or

2. We don't leave the EU and nearly 50% of the UK hates the result and the person who got the result.

If a court procedure prevents him from standing for the leadership he cannot be accused of chickening out. The downside is that the window of opportunity for leadership can be very narrow. If he misses this one he may never get another. Remember Michael Portillo? He blinked once and now makes TV programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 19 - 10:41 AM

Obviously it's a 'nobble' job

Why so, Stanron? The process began well before May even mentioned when she might resign.

As to TV programs. Portillo's are OK. I don't think I'd trust Johnson on a train... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 May 19 - 11:03 AM

Of course you wouldn't, you're a lefty. Boris has a history of being elected. Twice as mayor of London. He would be the best bet to oppose Jeremy Corbyn in a General Election. However he has significant opposition in the Tory party and he also has a history of presenting himself with widely different options. Remember the two different articles he wrote on Brexit? He published the one in favour of leaving but he also had written one in favour of remain. Exactly why he made the choice he made is not known but he examined both cases and then decided. Maybe he has given himself an out in case he decides his future is brightest outside of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 19 - 12:10 PM

Off topic, and purely my view which anyone is entitled to disagree with as they wish.

Most of you will remember a moment that entered folklore as 'Were you up for Portillo?', referring to the live broadcast of the election night results and the way it was clearly a huge shock to Michael Portillo when he lost his seat. It seems to me that it was an even bigger shock to him to find himself as the figurehead of derision and anger that encapsulated the rejection of the whole party. And that he was unusually self aware and thoughtful enough to take that away and reflect on whether was he actually as awful as the population seemed to think, and if so what could he do about it. I think he did genuinely accept that just being self confident was not enough and was determined to work to be 'a better person' (however that may be interpreted.)

In short, I have a lot more respect for him now than I had before. So, no, it is not 'a lefty thing' - it is a thinking person thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 19 - 04:36 PM

In view of the attempted prosecution of Boris I bring to your attention:
Wheeler v Labour Prime Minister (2008) the Divisional Court held that manifesto promises were NOT justiciable

" "Even if we had accepted that the relevant ministerial statements had the effect of a promise ... such a promise would not in our view give rise to a legitimate expectation enforceable in public law, such that the courts could intervene... The subject-matter, nature and context of a promise of this kind place it in the realm of politics, not of the courts."

I find it surprising that action against Boris was not taken at the time in 2016. This late in the day it is a deliberate attempt to marginalise a contestant, the same as the attempted smear of Farage by an electoral commission enquiry inmmediately before voting commenced.
Compare and contrast this with the delay until after the EU elections for the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) announcing the launch of a full statutory investigation to determine whether The Labour Party has unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they are Jewish.

The only other political party to ever face a formal investigation by the EHRC is the BNP.

Politics is a dirty business!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 May 19 - 04:46 PM

whatever... boris johnson is a total arsehole. surely it's obvious to anyone with half a brain

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 19 - 05:08 PM

I wondered how long it would take for Labour antisemitism to rear its head. You would have thought the media barons, Tory dirty tricks brigade and spin doctors would have realised that you can only flog a dead horse so far.

The economy is broke. Look, Labour antsemitism!

Brexit negotiations are a shambles. Look, Labour antsemitism!

The government is in disarray. Look, Labour antsemitism!

I wish they would play another record.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 19 - 05:20 PM

Kind of hard to ridicule the Equality and Human Rights Commission announcing the launch of a full statutory investigation into the Labour party.

and while Labour is expelling people for breaking rules:
Fresh from yesterday’s conveniently timed explusion of Alastair Campbell from the Labour Party, today it emerged that famously loyal Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn was a star speaker at a 1998 rally for the Communist Party of Britain. Corbyn’s name literally appears on the Communist Party recruitment form, the rally will have helped to drum up cash for the party’s coffers, breaking a swathe of Labour Party rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 29 May 19 - 05:33 PM

The only other political party to ever face a formal investigation by the EHRC is the BNP.

Thus nicely exemplifying the The Horseshoe Theory

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 19 - 05:58 PM

its all a bit reminiscent of when everyone was predicting the SDP was going to be the biggest party in parliament. Thatcher was a bastard and Foot/Kinnock unelectable. So people were going to vote SDP.

Then there was the Falklands and . And everyone went back to voting Tory/Labour.

it was personality led that time too. And to be honest ... i didn't like the personalities then either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 19 - 06:05 PM

Don't worry about Boris. The establishment will look after him. The big guns are already out. As for Portillo, well his railway programmes are very nice. But his true colours all too frequently show through on the Thursday night Andrew Neil programme. Deep down, he's a dyed-in-the-wool unreconstructed right-wing Tory. A leopard who can't change his spots. A wolf in sheep's clothing. The iron behind the velvet. Choose your own metaphor. Know thine enemy. Thine enemy is any Tory, and he's one of the unthinking worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 19 - 06:34 PM

Potentially even more damaging events are coming to the fore in the Euro wonderland. Italy is threatening to play hardball !


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/05/29/epic-clash-building-italys-triumphant-salvini-brussels/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 02:29 AM

The idea of a parallel currency that Italy is raising is remarkably similar in some ways to Brexit. Yes, you can run a campaign to convince people it is a good idea, and they can vote for it and perhaps win it. Or, as a government you can introduce it with the persuasion but without having a vote (at a somewhat greater risk to your personal future if it all goes bad.) But if you do introduce it, you get the whole package. You don't get to choose the bits you like and reject the bits you don't.

I visited Madagascar a few years ago and it uses a curreny called the 'ariary'. At the moment, 1 arity = 0.00022 pounds sterling. When I left, I came home with around £25 worth of currency. It is a wad of notes about 3cm thick. It is a perfectly useful currency for internal trading - paying for a hotel room, for example - but try to buy any foreign goods - a can of coke, rather than the local version for example - and it has very little value at all. Try and buy arity before you go to the country and it is unheard of - the banks don't even recognise it. (While India won't allow the banks to buy and sell their currency, at least the banks know it exists.)

So Italy can introduce a parallel currency if it likes, and hope to get some advantages out of it. But, whether they like it or not they would also get any disadvantages that come with it. And primarily they would probably turn out to be huge difficulties of trading with other countries, in or out of the EU, because it is those countries that decide on the value to attach to the parallel currency. And it could turn out to be virtually none.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 02:56 AM

An interesting bit on the chappie crowdfunding the court case accusing Boris of lying:

The man behind the case to prosecute Boris Johnson has been saying his case is not about stopping Brexit, just about stopping 'lying in politics'. That will come as news to the original backers of Marcus J. Ball's first (now deleted) crowdfunder which was set up from "within a Facebook group called The 48%" in order to reverse the result of the referendum.

"Once these prosecutions have established that politicians did indeed lie to voters our next step will be to take other action to prevent Brexit. This may be in the form of a judicial review… We will also work to reverse Brexit and ensure our membership of the European Union is not lost"

Ball deleted his original blogs, seemingly to hide his original intentions and then launched a new site claiming that he was "motivated by a desire to challenge the national problem of lying in UK politics." In late 2018 a new 'Brexit Justice Prosecution' page was launched, a new financial target established, and new Twitter and Facebook profiles were set up as old ones are deleted. The old 'Brexit Justice' Page now reroutes to the new page, with all references to Ball's political views removed. (what a sneaky fellow he is!)

What started as an attempt to prosecute the Leave campaign turned into a campaign against the man who led it, which if successful would have hugely destructive consequences over our democracy, enforcing government regulation of political speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:27 AM

My wife was subjected to a tedious lecture by me yesterday on the differences between truth value, lying and rhetoric. The third is the natural ground of politicians and is about persuasion, rather than about whether things are true or not, or whether they are misrepresentations of the truth intended to deceive. She is long-suffering, I am afraid.

I think making politicians challengeable on whether they are deliberately misrepresenting something in order to deceive is no bad thing and falls a long short of destroying democracy. Without is we are really in the world of 'who shouts louder', which is a far greater threat to democracy in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 04:59 AM

You realise that all MPs that signed up for article 50 and stood for election on a leave ticket would be open for challenge, as would May's inveterate lies about brexit, not to mention dodgy dossiers and possible war criminal charges. We could of course add all the remainer false claims about instant interest rate rises, the economy tanking etc stc.
All deliberate misrepresentations.
Could be some rather nasty unintended consequences from such actions.
Be careful what you wish for!

From your perspective it could be argued brexit has occurred by default because of endless lies enabling postponement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 12:14 PM

Brexit Betrayal from their own words

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcmebRH904

If Boris is convicted we might need to refurbish the Tower for multiple long term residency.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 12:45 PM

I am afraid, Iains, you are just demonstrating that you and whoever made that video do not understand the difference between being incorrect and lying. But relax: I am not about to repeat the monologue my wife had to sit through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 30 May 19 - 01:15 PM

He, and they, understand perfectly well.

They just don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 01:28 PM

Should the politically motivated court case against BORIS have merit, I have no doubt absolute clarity will be given to both interpretations.
The Crown Prosecution Service could throw it out right now. I suspect had a remainer been accused the result would be no case to answer and produced faster than you could say timmy robinson.
It is a dangerous path when the judiciary show political leanings, as it is when the speaker is no longer impartial, as it is when a convicted criminal is given a ridiculously abbreviated sentence and thereby allowed a casting vote on crucial legislation.
The EU, I notice, has no qualms in banning the duly elected Catalan MEP from taking his seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 19 - 02:14 PM

There is a difference between a promise which is not kept, and a downright lie on matters of fact. Boris is bang to rights. The maximum sentence for misconduct in public office is life imprisonment. And may I recommend Walton Gaol, Liverpool. And when he goes in, every single prisoner should be given a copy of this article. Pick up the soap, Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:09 PM

The remain campaign undoubtedly made misleading and unrealistic PREDICTIONS about the post-Brexit world. Political campaigning is predicated on predictions and it's up to an educated electorate (or should be) to distinguish between realistic projections and far-fetched extrapolations based on ideological bullshit. That's the name of the game and 'twas ever thus. What Johnson did was to tell a deliberate lie, which he painted on the side of a bus. It was a lie and he knew it was a lie. That was no prediction. It was a stated false fact, writ large. Defenders of Boris appear not to be able to tell the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:16 PM

Why to you think that those predictions were unrealistic Steve? We don't know yet, if we ever will. I would suggest that George Osborne's predictions of the hit that the average family would/will take might have been a touch short of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:21 PM

Good to see remainiacs applying the same sleight of hand that emanates from the abbaccus school of mathermagic. Was Hogwarts their alma mater?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 19 - 03:28 PM

I'm no defender of boris, but the difference saying something misleading and unrealistic and outright lying seems abit academic. Is the bus the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 04:02 PM


I'm no defender of boris, but the difference saying something misleading and unrealistic and outright lying seems a bit academic

Not at all. It is all about whether statements and predictions were made in good faith and believed at the time they were made, or were made knowing full well they were not. Whether a prediction turned out to be accurate in the end is different from whether it was made in good faith at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 04:17 PM

Let me illustrate that with an example which does not involve Brexit. Two salesmen go along to a company and try to sell them a product. The potential purchaser is reluctant: he is not at all confident he can get the funds, or that it will really that beneficial to his company, and anyway they have found something maybe as good but a little cheaper from elsewhere.

Each salesman reports back. The former says they seemed quite reluctant and not at all promising and estimates 10% chance of getting the sale. The second salesman reports back that they were wildly enthusiastic, and were begging to get the product ASAP. He estimates 90% or better chance of the sale coming off.

Surely it is obvious the first is speaking in good faith and the second is lying? And that that is what is taking place, irrespective of whether the company does buy the product or not in the end?

Nothing academic about it, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 19 - 05:13 PM

Yes, the previous post was from me. I'll state it again just in case it gets deleted as a 'Guest' post in BS: I was signed in when I started typing. [It got deleted. Thanks for re-posting it. -Mod]

As I pointed out back in 2017, when this matter was last raised, the figure of £350m was an official figure (Although a gross rather than net figure) provided by the UK Statistics Authority. They wrote to Boris, complaining that he was misusing official figures. The wording makes clear that it was an official figure.
In his letter, Sir David once again repeated the explanation that the £350m statistic relates only to what the UK currently pays to the EU, and does not include the money that Britain receives in return.
(the above)From: The Independent
The side of the "Boris Bus" said "We send the EU £350 million a week"
Apart from the comment differentiating between net & gross, David Norgrove's comment is the same as the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 19 - 05:38 PM

I am happy for the court to examine the matter. We have, in my opinion, covered all the relevant points about the bus many times so I don't see this advancing until we can react to whatever the court gives its view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 19 - 07:01 PM

I think it would be a mistake ro attribute honesty to anyone in this fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 19 - 09:12 PM

Do we run the trial again if we don't get the verdict we want....?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 19 - 11:34 PM

If you say that we give the EU £350 million a week without saying that we get much of that straight back, and you know it, in order to make your case that we give the EU a lot of money, you are being deliberately misleading and you are lying by omission. I honestly can't see why that isn't crystal clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 19 - 01:59 AM

The Brexshiteers don’t want to see it, Steve - confirmation bias - so they continue, not only to ‘justify’ the Leave lies, but also to continue to push them.

Fortunately, some of us have very long memories and working brains, capable of original thought and resisting bullshit and bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 02:08 AM

I am not attributing honesty to either side, Al. Both sides lied on some occasions and told the truth on some occasions. That is no reason to overlook an influencial lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 02:51 AM

I see the CBI have now thrown their cap in the ring.

Business lobby group CBI warns Tories over no-deal Brexit

Any good news yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 03:26 AM

Simply spiffing news!

Yougov poll with a choice of

Con
Lab
Lib
Other.

LibDem poll 24%
Brexit poll 22%
Tory poll 18%
Labour poll 18%
UKIP poll 2%
CHUK poll 2%

Deliberately play down Brexit by classing them as other yet they come number 2.

The pundits claimed brexit would fade after the EU elections. I think not!

and for some icing on the cake:
Tory second referendum campaigner Phillip Lee is facing the music at a Special General Meeting of Bracknell Conservative Association this Saturday morning, they will vote on a no confidence motion in him.

He may be as slippery as cat sh*t on linoleum, but I doubt he will slither out of this little contretemps

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 03:51 AM

It's a shame Rory Stewart is behind the baboon and the viper in the leadership race.


An honest Tory?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:01 AM

Brexit party goes for the jugular in the upcoming bye election for the seat of disgraced Ex-Labour MP Fiona Onasanya.

Distinct lack of joined up thinking by Labour. Why bring up law and order as the party wicket when their own representative's contempt for same created the need for the election?            DUUUUUUUUUUUH!!!!!!



brexit 10 Labour nil

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:02 AM

That 22% of the population is prepared to vote for a party which gives no information on what it would try to do in power apart from leaving the EU, which some of their party say might take 30 years to recover from ( Lucy Harris, Brexit party) is hardly 'spiffing'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:15 AM

what if Boris is found innocent and five million people sign a petition saying he's guilty....

another crushing victory for the remainers...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:28 AM

I would not be in the least surprised if the Brexit Party candidate won in Peterborough. But nor would I be surprised if the LibDems won. I would be surprised if anyone else did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:36 AM

Having just checked The Electoral Calculus prediction for Peterborough, they put Labour with the highest chance, then Tory, with LibDem and Brexit party in the doldrums. I think that is wrong - Farage will certainly be doing his damnedest to get the Brexit party as high as possible, and the more he succeeds in that, the stronger the anti-Brexit response will be, which will primarily help the LibDems. And neither Labour nor Conservatives are being too convincing at the moment.

We will just have to wait and see how it plays out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 04:42 AM

Big Al
Mathermagic is the secret weapon of remainers. With all these threatened shortages in a post brexit world I cannot see why they worry. Ample precedent has been set with loaves and fishes!

As an aside George Galloway has announced he will seek advice to launch legal action against Alastair Campbell over his alleged "misconduct in public office" during the run-up to the Iraq War.

Who will take aim at the Bliar I wonder?
Are the floodgates about to open?

These remainer wrecking tactics have a potential to backfire in a spectacular fashion.

I must study the futures market in popcorn!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 05:02 AM

That link is scary, DMcG. When even the brexit part are saying leaving will hurt the UK economy for 30 years we begin to see why no one on here has come up with any good news yet.

Still, I suppose when we get are cuntry back we will have unlimited wealth, good weather all year round and unicorns in every garden. It will all be worthwhile. Shame no one on here will be about to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 05:35 AM

Betting odds sky news for Peterborough


Brexit Party 2/9
Labour         7/2
Liberal Democrats 22/1
Conservatives         25/1
Greens         100/1
UKIP         100/1

Realistically a 2 horse race if the odds are correct. We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:03 AM

well if you're correct and thehe brexit party have said nothing of their intentions...what a story it tells of disillusion with the two main parties.

cue for Corbyn fans to blame the wicked media....

This is it though, we ordinary people are so stupid, Keep on telling us that. It will really get us on your side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:07 AM

well if you're correct and the brexit party have said nothing of their intentions ...

I am quite happy if you correct me, Al. Can you detail some of their stated intentions apart from leaving the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:18 AM

The Brexit party have concentrated on Brexit. They are focused, unlike Labour with their ridiculous campaign poster in Peterborough emphasizing law and order in a campaign caused by the dismissal of a criminal labour Mp. (To steal a phrase: You could not make it up!)
When the two "has-been" parties are forced into an election, then is the time for a slick party manifesto. Unlike the career politician amateurs in the other parties Brexit will have candidates with real world experience, honed in the cut and thrust of business, bringing a level of professionalism their opponents can only drool over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:22 AM

That might come across as more aggressive than I intended. Let's try again. I presume you are at least willing to accept no deal. Certainly many Brexit supporters are. But there are even varieties of no-deal. For example, a large number of fridges, we are told, have been bought to stockpile medicines to prevent a shortage in the event of no-deal. Grayling, for all his incompetence, appears to have tried to arrange alternative transportation for goods in the event of no deal.

So you can have a no deal, while simultaneously trying to identify risks in it and then taking steps to minimise those risks.

At the other extreme, is no-deal with no attempt to mitigate any effects at all. And in between are thousands of variations depending on what you see as risks and how great you assess them to be.

While my personal opinion is of course that remain would be better, I do not regard anyone who wants no deal and is prepared to assess the risks and then act to mitigate them as stupid. And fully own the consequences of Brexit, good or bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 19 - 07:38 AM

That link is scary, DMcG. When even the brexit part are saying leaving will hurt the UK economy for 30 years we begin to see why no one on here has come up with any good news yet.
Assuming you mean the Lucy Harris link.
To paraphrase she says Brexit at any cost, and answering points being made by several persons:
Campbell then asked Harris to try and elaborate on her comment and it wouldn't exactly fill your heart with hope and prosperity, even if you were the most staunch of Brexiteers.
Well...I don't...I mean...are you looking for a number...or?
I think short term there will be an effect on the economy. Short-term yes.
Campbell:
How long is short term?
Harris?
How long is short term? I don't know. The next 30 years?
I think short term there will be some effects on it.
A flabbergasted Campbell seemed shocked that she would predict such an extensive length of time, who quickly figured out that things wouldn't start to get better until three years before his 90th birthday.
Harris replied again:
The price of democracy and the price of sovereignty is high. People have died for this.
The economics of this sometimes isn't as important as the principle of it.

Assuming she was giving her honest answers to the points being put, there is a distinct lack of any comment that there would be 30 years of negative effects. Clearly we have taken over 40 years becoming entangled with EU. Getting clear of that influence will also take time.

The transcript certainly reads as if the presenter is not being impartial, but siding with the two pro-EU activists Femi Oluwole and Madeleina Kay against the single pro-Brexit spokesman.


The Independent does make one comment (before the transcript starts) which appears even handed:
During an appearance on BBC Radio 5 Live, Lucy Harris a member of the Brexit Party who is running in the European Elections in Yorkshire and Humber claimed that we might not see any benefits for another 30 years.

That is quite different from predicting 30 years of doom & gloom, but clearly a paragraph (encapsulating what the quotes actually say) which will be ignored by Remainers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:14 AM

i dunno if its just my cheap computer but i keep flying past the message i want to see. its so long this thread that my computer can't cope with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:20 AM

You have the right initials, Nigel. What else do you think NP could stand for? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:27 AM

Really? "The price of democracy and the price of sovereignty is high. People have died for this.
The economics of this sometimes isn't as important as the principle of it" is not suggesting we will pay a price?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:41 AM

Democracy is voting, sovereignty depends upon who is talking. I don't have any less sovereignty if I am answering to someone in Brussels, than if it is someone in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 19 - 10:09 AM

”i dunno if its just my cheap computer but i keep flying past the message i want to see. its so long this thread that my computer can't cope with it.”

Al, if you click on the number showing the total number of posts instead of clicking on the thread title, the thread will open in ‘pages’. If you then click on the highest bracketed Page no. at the top, it will take you to the most recent posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 12:22 PM

Thankyou for help. BWM. If I find that number of the total number of posts I will let you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 12:23 PM

A- ha! Many thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 19 - 12:28 PM

No problemo, senor!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 19 - 09:47 PM

I don't think you can have it both ways.

Let us say you are right - a no deal Brexit will raise many problems. Driving over a cliff. Walking into lamp post. Poor Elton John is consumed with shame with his fellow Englishmen.

The land prey tp pestilence and famine.

Well if that is the case, you can't really make plans and policies, if things are going to be as bad as that.

So why do it?

Well I suppose, yes its that important. I think we're at a table where the game is rigged, and we need to walk away.

Donald Trump has been criticised for his measures towards Mexico, but I think he has a point. If you want to to sell your goods to a country - you should not be pursuing policies which will affect the prosperity of that country. You can't treat a trading partner like a milk cow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 01:55 AM

I have no idea what you are on about, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 02:22 AM

I am not suggesting plagues of frogs, all major businesses pulling out of the UK, and so on and so forth. In fact I do think many of the claims made by the remain camp are daft because they only look at the impact of a risk and not an estimated probability of it occurring: you need to consider both.

I am instead asking those who propose no-deal to make it as beneficial as possible. That means thinking about what could go wrong (e.g. shortage of medicine) and either taking action to mitigate it (buying fridges) or honestly accepting this is a risk we are knowingly taken.

Businesses do this all the time. So much so there is an international standard (ISO 31000), used in the US as well as the UK and he rest of the EU, which describes best practice for this. It is not some wild and weird thing we are trying to impose on no-deals out of hatred for the idea. It is normal, everyday common practice for managing change. If you went to a bank for a business loan to cover a major change, they would ask to see your business plan, part of that would normally include a risk register.


I assume you buy some forms of insurance - car, perhaps, or house. The price of those is set through this sot of mechanism. They estimate as best they can the possible risks (theft, etc), look at things that mitigate them (lockable garage? burglar alarm?) and set the price accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 02:42 AM

I think we're at a table where the game is rigged, and we need to walk away.

It is of no important, but this raised a silly image in my mind, which might raise a laugh. Most cruise ships have casinos, which are of course designed so the house profits overall. They are, if you like, rigged games. So get up and walk away by all means, but be very careful you don't walk too far - the casino and ship provides a much warmer and safer environment than the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 03:48 AM

Of course the game is rigged. and there are massive attempts to manipulate the electorate with very selective reporting and data massaging.

Who in their right mind wants to hear Elton John's opinion. On the political scene he is a total irrelevance just like Bono?

When TBP have won more seats than any other party in the EU elections,
why are they placed among the also-rans in a yougov survey and not even named?

Why is the selection of guests on question time so obviously partisan?

Why did the electoral Commissioners announce an enquiry into Brexit party funding immediately before the election?

Why bring proceedings against Boris during a leader selection campaign?

Why is May's deal not labelled a treaty, and the details clarifying our future as serfs not publicized?

The examples are too numerous to list and the overpowering theme is the denigration of brexit. Exactly the same as the way the American President is treated.

If you cannot understand and agree with the contention that the game is rigged, I can only conclude that for an unhealthy number, the brainwashing has been a success.

However it must be remembered that in the EU elections Brexit overwhelmingly won! DESPITE BREXIT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 05:27 AM

i'm quite interested in elton john's opinion - what is it?

why is the milkshake-stained man frog on question time so often? you do have a point there, iain = it would be good to have more alternative/socialist/environmental/workers/immigrant voices on the media.

in the european election - given the chance to vote for brexit why did their vote drop from 17 million to 5ish million? i thought folk were supposed to be quite keen on that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 05:48 AM

Insulting people merely demonstrates that the argument has been ceded.
Funny that only remainiacs stoop to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 05:56 AM

”Insulting people merely demonstrates that the argument has been ceded.
Funny that only remainiacs stoop to it!”

Sez the bloke who regularly resorts to insults like ‘Steptoe Sr’, or ‘Abbopotamus’.

Glasshouses, stones squaddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 07:19 AM

You know better, John. Everyone has seen what he is like. No need to keep pointing it out or even acknowledge his existence. Make the mods task easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 07:54 AM

Now to get back to brexit. A headline from the "Independent"

"The Conservative leadership contest is dominated by white men who've furthered inequality in various departments. The winner will be chosen by a membership who are 71 per cent male, 97 per cent white and 44 per cent aged over 65"

"The choice of Tory party leader will be unrepresentative and undemocratic. And yet this prime minister could be the one to lead us back into or out of Europe."

and yes it has been confirmed, the Pope is a Catholic.

This is the sort of whining expected from the gruniard.

Strangely enough those that decide these things are our elected representatives. If I could be bothered I could dig out leftie postings saying our elected elders and betters know best and should be left to get on with the job.

Yes is no
black is white
left is right

welcome to the Orwellian lunatic world of the remainiacs.

and a Toon to aid understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 10:44 AM

in our award winning Farmers' Market - Godsell (local cheesemeisters) were selling one particular cheese Called "Brexit, 3 years old, divides opinion"

I posted it on Fakebook with the (true) comment "Hard Cheese"
& ............
"difficult to swallow, and don't come cheap"

Ya gotta larf, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 02:47 PM

I don't think remainiac is any more elevated than talking of brexshitters.

Or really any more likely to produce sensible debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 19 - 11:03 PM

Yes sometimes political debate on this site makes me feel like Private Godfrey....I don't like that sort of thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 02:41 AM

I agree with that, Al. Throwing insults around doesn't help anyone or inform anyone. I don't subscribe to the idea we are about winning an argument here - no one is likely to change anyone else's mind. So the best we can gain out of it is an understanding of the other's point of view, with the objective of understanding it, not demolishing it.

So, for example, Iains said at one point 'it has moved beyond Brexit now' and there is, I suspect, a lot of truth in that. Imagine for a moment that the new Tory leader was the hardest of hard Brexiteers, and somehow took Britain out of the EU as near immediately as possible. Does anyone believe Farage would then emulate Holmes and retire to the Sussex Downs to quietly keep bees? I don't, for one. He would probably say something along the lines of the traditional parties being forced into it by his party, it shows the power he wealds and only he can be the True Saviour of Democracy. And it is for this reason I ask about what Brexit supporters think his plans are if he gets no-deal implemented. Because we can be pretty sure he has ideas for after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:21 AM

I guess it is a rhetorical question DMcG. We all know what comes after. Farage and others like him are just it it for money and power. Without EU intervention they will be free to asset strip the UK and turn it into a tax haven in which to keep their ill gotten gains. We can only hope some semblance of reason returns to the electorate before that happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:25 AM

Farage can use one argument that trumps all others: Respect the referendum result. This is a killer argument for both Tory and Labour parties because their respective MPs in many areas are betraying the vote for article 50 and the last election manifesto for both parties.
This raises questions about the duty of an MP towards his electorate in a way that has never before brought into such stark contrast between a referendum promise, a manifesto promise and arrogant dismissal of the electorate.
The no confidence vote in Phillip Lee in Guido has generated nearly a thousand comments. An interesting read on the span of electoral feeling.
    I recommend it is read. It can explain why Farage has such a level of support for his party and it is increasing. The more labour and tory behave like rabid rats in a sack the greater their destruction.
The establishment is scared stiff of Farage and the Brexit party because on his simple message he is unassailable. It is not purely about Brexit, it is about respecting democracy. That argument has gained support from both sides of the spectrum and the longer the political bunfight among the two parties continues the more support he gains.
Ideally, the long term the establishment of the Brexit Party as a dominant force could lead to a written constitution and root and branch reform of both houses. Such actions are unthinkable under the present regime. It would be nice to think the couple of deselection procedures presently underway turn into a flood. There is no shortage of candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:28 AM

It was not really a rhetorical question, Dave. I think most remainers do think what you said is more or less right.

But Brexiteers proclaim their love for their country, and I am sure the vast majority do so honestly. SO presumably they do not wish asset stripping to be the next stage after Brexit. So what they do think the Brexit Party will do should Brexit be completed is an interesting question. I hope they can answer with more than vague generalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:43 AM

We cross-posted, Iains. My comment about vague generalities was not directed at your post.

When I was a member of Charter '88 one of the demands was for a written constitution. Mrs Thatcher wrote a response that said many of the most despotic countries had a written constitution. On that, at least, she was quite right: such a constitution is not a solution, it is at best a tool, and it is a tool that only works within the rule of law. Claims the judges are enemies of the people does not fit well with calls for a legal framework like a constitution.

And of course it is unfortunately nearly unavoidable to consider the rise and fall of the Weimar Republic when thinking about this. Introduction of a new constitution, reform of the houses and then takeover by a demagogue is not really I model I would want to follow. Again, I believe most Brexiteers would not want that either. SO what do they think can be done to prevent it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 05:08 AM

That's not the killer argument Iains (is that really a name with an 'S' on the end?).

If you'd done a referendum on tn the days after the Warrington bombing, Warren Point, Enniskillen, or The Birmingham and pub bombing - they would have reintroduced capital punishment. That would have attracted millions of US dollars to the IRA - the Yank politicians were already lining up for photo opportunities with McGuinness and Adams.

The killer argument is that the EU has passed hundred of regulations that have impacted on fishing, car making, agriculture, textiles, and tax regulstions about music royalties which affect the economy of England - regulations which they don't observe - but we being a law abiding nation, do.

People who live in affluent parts of the country or who follow professions unaffected don't see it, or give a fig or a fart about their less fortunate citizens, whom they characterise as Brexshitter oafs. Don't sink to their level.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 05:45 AM

Al, the reality is that people do not want to be bossed by faceless
bureaucrats based in Brussels and Strasbourg, neither do they want to pay annual reparations of Danegeld. They want some semblance of control over their own lives and see the EU encroaching on every aspect of living like a demented Orwellian nightmare from 1984. They want their sovereignty back.
When the Bilderberg conference of 2019 will have the following topics(among others) it is time to be worried. Arch globalists are not your friends.
The key topics for discussion this year are:

1. A Stable Strategic Order
2. What Next for Europe?

6. The Future of Capitalism
7. Brexit (how to frustrate it more likely)

Trickle down is a myth to fool the little people. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
(the name is Iain by the way. It had already been used hence the s on the end)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 06:49 AM

Well I don't see how Brexit can happen, when our elected representatives are all dead set against it.

I tend to think parliamentary power trumps these crummy referendums and any euro nonsense.

Shouldn't get too excited Iains - its never going to happen.

But basically I agree. Sling out the the monarchy, and the aristocracy, and the Russian gangsters, de glamourise recreational drugs put them on the NHS (thus getting rid of many criminals) - spend the money on building hi tech infrastructure and factories.

The red revolution! Then think Boris and Farage. In europe or out, a right couple of wankers!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:39 AM

The killer argument is that the EU has passed hundred of regulations

That has proven to be nonsense over and over again, Al. The UK has been an important part of the EU for nearly 50 years. We have played a major role in getting these "hundred of rehulations" (sic) passed. If there was anything we were dead set against, we could veto it. If we leave the EU and want to sell to the remaining member states we will still have to comply to their regulations. The difference being we will no longer have a say in What they are. You have fallen prey to the media anti-EU campaign that has gone on since we joined. Do yourself a favour and look up whether any of the Sun or Mail scare stories about bent bananas, banning playtime or any other such nonsense are actually true. Find me one bit of poor legislation the we have not had a passing over the last 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:41 AM

Had a hand in passing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

Those regulations are for our benefit. They ensure that the food we buy is safe to eat, that our employers have to make us safe at work for example. I want those regulations kept. All of them, and more. Without them irresponsible and unsavoury people and countries will be able to put any old rubbish on the dinner tables of our children. And the US ambassador has made it clear that his country intends to do exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

bent bananas?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:31 AM

Here's a good place to start, Al.

Euromyths

Including all you need to know about the false news on bananas and many, many other bits of complete nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:31 AM

Anyone remember how the Long Parliament got to be the the Rump Parliament and why? I can see parallels between then and now although I'm not sure which way those parallels go. We have an unresolved referendum, they had an unresolved civil war. Then it was Parliament against Charles, now it is The People against Parliament.

More popcorn anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:35 AM

now it is The People against Parliament.

Just now many people, Stanron? Even if all 17.4 million who voted against staying in the EU felt strongly enough to do something it is still well under 1/3 of "the people". I wouldn't bother with the popcorn if I were you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:45 AM

One of the parallels I see is that after the most devastating civil war this country has ever known, the Long Parliament wanted to put things back as they had been before the war and restore Charles to the throne.

Now after a bitterly divisive referendum campaign Parliament wants to put things back as they had been before the vote.

Will we see the Brexit party take the place of the New Model Army and give us a 'New Rump Parliament'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:50 AM

Those regulations are for our benefit. They ensure that the food we buy is safe to eat, that our employers have to make us safe at work for example. I want those regulations kept.
Regulation started in the UK long before the EU
In 1833 the Government passed a Factory Act to improve conditions for children working in factories.
The first law in British history to regulate the production and sale of food began in 1266. The Assisa Panis et Cervisiæ, or Assize of Bread and Ale was developed in late Medieval English Law to regulate the price, weight and quality of manufactured bread and beer.
Mines and Collieries Act 1842, commonly known as the Mines Act 1842, was an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It prohibited all girls and boys under ten years old from working underground in coal mines
Adulteration of Food and Drink and Drugs Act 1872 made the appointment of public analysts mandatory and made it an offence to sell mixtures (chicory and coffee, for example) unless these was declared. The Act covered drugs for first time, introduced an element of central control.
Of course more recently the Cullen report on piper alpha caused a stepchange in safety in the entire worldwide oil industry

As can be demonstrated the UK was the first country to initiate legislation to protect people in the industrial age, therefore such continued legislation is not dependent on the EU.
It is completely illogical to believe such legislation would cease after leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:08 AM

Many brexit campaigners want to scrap workers rights

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:13 AM

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:28 AM

Why bother?
Your link also includes the following:

There are many employment-related issues that are not subject to EU legislation. These include pay (the National Minimum Wage is a home-grown policy), industrial action, and vocational training. Enforcement mechanisms, which are essential if rights are to be respected in practice, are also a matter for national governments alone

If the UK leaves the EU, it not clear that there will be a bonfire of employment legislation.
so why make an issue of it? more scare tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:40 AM

”Those regulations are for our benefit. They ensure that the food we buy is safe to eat, that our employers have to make us safe at work for example. I want those regulations kept.
Regulation started in the UK long before the EU
In 1833 the Government passed a Factory Act to improve conditions for children working in factories.
The first law in British history to regulate the production and sale of food began in 1266. The Assisa Panis et Cervisiæ, or Assize of Bread and Ale was developed in late Medieval English Law to regulate the price, weight and quality of manufactured bread and beer.
Mines and Collieries Act 1842, commonly known as the Mines Act 1842, was an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It prohibited all girls and boys under ten years old from working underground in coal mines
Adulteration of Food and Drink and Drugs Act 1872 made the appointment of public analysts mandatory and made it an offence to sell mixtures (chicory and coffee, for example) unless these was declared. The Act covered drugs for first time, introduced an element of central control.
Of course more recently the Cullen report on piper alpha caused a stepchange in safety in the entire worldwide oil industry

As can be demonstrated the UK was the first country to initiate legislation to protect people in the industrial age, therefore such continued legislation is not dependent on the EU.
It is completely illogical to believe such legislation would cease after leaving the EU.”

And, for precisely the reasons you have kindly detailed above, it is completely illogical to believe such legislation has been, as Al has allowed himself to be brainwashed into believing, ‘forced upon us’ by the EU. The UK has been willing and co-operative partners with the rest of the EU, not held by it in helpless serfdom, the way Brexshiteers would have the feeble-minded believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:48 AM

No they are not for our benefit. The areas of economic desolation in the country prove it. do you remember atime when English manufactured cars out numbered foreign ones on our roads? Not to mention the fishing industry which stretched round our whole coast.

I don't need some twat of a journalist to tell me what I have been witnessing for forty yeras, and what you would have seen too, if you'd been affected.

Oh then we get...that was the wicked tories...no it bloody wasn't ...it started during a Labour administration and went on uninterrrupted by any change of administration because so many of our politicians are corrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:57 AM

It is not illogical to point out that one of the candidates (Raab) and one person who may yet become a candidate (Patel) collaborated in a book advocating getting rid of many such regulations (Britannia Unchained)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 10:20 AM

As has been pointed out, Al. The regulations you seem to believe (incorrectly) have had a detrimental effect on the UK are either ones that the UK had a major role in defining or have nothing to do with the EU anyway. Blaming the EU is what the media barons, power brokers and money men do. Don't fall for their lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 10:30 AM

Too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 01:25 PM

US Ambassador says US wants discussion of access to NHS under trade deal

I watched the whole Andrew Marr show. This is an accurate summary in my view. But neither it or Marr explored how the idea of letting the wnd customer decide between products to EU standards and US standards cannot work without a hard border.

There was also a lot of nonsense spoken by Leadsom and Javid, especially in the light of the ambassador's comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 01:31 PM

If the Brexit-Bunch think the EU has given it to the UK straight up the arse, they ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until we're the serfs of the US, then they'll know what a ruptured anal sphincter feels like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 02:43 PM

I can remember a time when English manufactured cars outnumbered foreign ones at the side of the road with their bonnets up, it was the foreign ones which were actually moving. Things improved when foreign companies bought out many of the failed British ones and introduced their own management practices. And the availability of fish has declined, that is true, and is entirely a result of overfishing. Who fished out the North Sea Herring, it was largely the British who then deserted the industry when the catches declined. If you think there is economic desolation, you have seen nothing compared with the post brexit landscape, with no export markets. And if the financial services sector goes, who is going to pay the taxes to fund the benefits which the failed post-industrial communities rely on? You (Big Al) have a rose tinted vision of times gone by which is not in accord with reality. Things were utterly crap in the 50s, which seems to be the era you yearn for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:05 PM

compare and contrast

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:13 PM

all the cars were crap in that era.....the renault 4, the renault dauphine, the fiat 5, the skoda estelle, the beetle, the citroen dayane (The RAC man next door told me - please don't call me if you buy that shit.)

Still if you want to talk down British industry that sort of fits in with the Remainer philosophy.

The Aveling Barford Dumper truck division I worked for had a waiting list of seven years. The Charnos and Aristoc tights factory had full order books and order books stretching forward for four years.. French people used to come to the midlands to patronise the factory shops of viyella and celestion wood.

All gone. The result serious social problems. Homelessness, broken communities, hard drugs. I can't convince you - but that's what motivates the people you are calling brexshitters and little Englanders.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 05:07 PM

Yeah, right, Al. You appear to have forgotten the Morris Marina, the All Agro, the Maxi and the Maestro. The bloke next door to me bought a brand new Marina and was proudly showing it off to me the day he had it delivered. I reluctantly had to point out to him the widespread rust in its seams. I had the misfortune to borrow a Maestro from a mate for 18 months as he went on a world tour. It would take me three hours to tell you how terrible that car was, not least because there was no way on God's earth, despite all the mechanical knowledge on the planet brought to bear on it, that you could get that car to do more than 25 to the gallon. Actually, three hours would be too long, as the bloody thing rusted away in less time than that. And don't even begin to ask me about my Triumph Dolomite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:01 PM

the point is Steve..... Fiat, Skoda, Renault etc are all still there, despite their many sins - whereas our car factories bit the dust - mainly because their governments helped them face down the beast from the east.

As with the British motorbikes many of the cars have become design classics...the Singer Gazelle, Triumph TR7, the Reliant Scimitar, the Moggy Minor. Bet theres not many Skoda Estelle colectors out there. Not even amongst the Euro remain enthusiasts!

We were told government finacial aid was unfair competition to our gallant EEC comrades. EEc regulations...sorry old cock, nothing to be done!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:11 AM

As Shakespeare put it:
Thou marshall'st me the way that I was going;
And such an instrument I was to use.

It was ever the case that if a government does not want to give act in a certain way, it will look for reasons not to. The EU restrictions are not absolute, but they were a handy additional excuse for not helping the sorts of industries you refer to, Al. It was not really the case that the government was desperate to support such industries and the nasty EU prevented them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:21 AM

They would not need financial aid if they were decent cars and the factories better managed. The only reason they are collectors items is that so few of them survived. Why do you think the Trabant is so sought after? Besides,

A) We still have a car industry albeit owned elsewhere and
B) As I keep pointing out, the UK had as much, if not more, say in Europen legislation as the other members.

If we leave the EU we will have even less of a car industry and no say at all in European legislation. Still, you will have got rid of your lawless East Europeans so I suppose you think it's worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:24 AM

This I realise, The EEC regulations were a handy figleaf to cover the obscenity of monetarism.

Still, as the bard has it, the EEC regulations encapsulated the zeitgeist of the murder of our industrial heartland. Quite an instrument!

Bad luck to quote the Scottish play!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:27 AM

EU restrictions were never the reason for the decline of British manufacturing, the reasons were short term planning, entrenched management practices, and an unproductive workforce. Germany operated under exactly the same "restrictions". And it's not at is if was all bad in Britain, the country developed a thriving services sector, creative industries, higher education sector, to some extent even high tech manufacturing. And the NHS, which you seem desperate to flog off. The 50s were really not a great time, there was far less access to higher education. And there was far less variety of consumer goods and foodstuffs. People's expectations have risen faster than their actual wealth.

People need to move on. My grandfather was a coal miner. At least 5 and probably more generations before him were coal miners, back to the days of the bell pits. But in the 1920s, with the mines closing in Somerset, he didn't sit about moaning that he had been left behind, he crossed the country looking for different work, and found it as an electrician. His sons didn't get the chance to go to university, because of a mixture of poverty and the war, but they all emphasised to the next generation the value of education, and that they had to look for opportunities and take them, not wait for things to be presented to them on a plate.

The left behind communities will only cease to be left behind when the people in them learn to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:48 AM

Great idea! Get on their bikes and take advantage of all the career opportunities in Romania!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 04:01 AM

The question is not how well or badly the UK industry was doing, but the extent to which the EU regulations bore responsibility, either for its problems, or preventing solutions to those problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 05:20 AM

Going to work anywhere in Europe is a splendid idea, Al. One that will be made far more difficult if you and the rest of the brexiteers get your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 06:45 AM

The point is that education and relocation isn't the answer for everybody.
Take an extreme case: Django Rheinhardt. The guy was a a musical genius. But given the attitudes he grew up with ( his wife piggy backed him to gigs so that he didn't get his feet muddy) there was no course the Open University or other any gang of middle class toffs could devise that he could engage with.

A lot of us run out of road with education. Its not the answer for a lot of people. It doesn't mean we're stupid, or unworthy of a vote, or the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Its just not for us.

This was the basis of the 1940's government's contract with the British people. We fought for them keeping their king's share of the nation's wealth - but from now on they would take care of us. Provide employment, health care, a decent place to live.

Like Iains said. The Heath government basically said, fuck that! we're in the EEC. A lot of us didn't agree with that. The reasons have become obvious to everybody, apart from those who fancy themselves as somehow evolved ahead of the 1940's socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 07:48 AM

The reasons have become obvious to everybody

Have they? Not to me and I do not fancy myself as "evolved ahead of the 1940s socialism". Whatever that may mean. I am the working class son of a Polish immigrant. My Dad was a painter and decorator, supported the union all his life and hated both communism and fascism. I think some of that rubbed off on me. I was educated to GCE O level standard, started work at 16, did day release to get my ONC and was accepted on a part time economics degree that was cancelled after 4 weeks. I never bothered after that.

Yet I can see that strong trading partners with no barriers to employment will benefit me, my children and my grandchildren far more than pulling up the drawbridge and going it alone. I know we will never convince you Al but what you spout about only the middle and upper classes wanting to remain is utter nonsense. You could at least have the grace to admit that you just don't want "the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston" (your words) that you have complained about before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 08:10 AM

”The reasons have become obvious to everybody

Have they? Not to me and I do not fancy myself as "evolved ahead of the 1940s socialism". Whatever that may mean. I am the working class son of a Polish immigrant. My Dad was a painter and decorator, supported the union all his life and hated both communism and fascism. I think some of that rubbed off on me. I was educated to GCE O level standard, started work at 16, did day release to get my ONC and was accepted on a part time economics degree that was cancelled after 4 weeks. I never bothered after that.

Yet I can see that strong trading partners with no barriers to employment will benefit me, my children and my grandchildren far more than pulling up the drawbridge and going it alone. I know we will never convince you Al but what you spout about only the middle and upper classes wanting to remain is utter nonsense.”

Amen, Dave, Amen.

Your story very closely mirrors my own - except that my dad was the British-born son of the British-born son of a South African immigrant and was a fitter in an engineering works, and my mother was the daughter of a dock-worker - and Al’s thinly-veiled suggestion that I’m ‘Middle-Class’, and living in an ‘affluent area’ is ill-informed and, quite frankly, laughable.

The wish to Remain in the EU has very little to do with ‘class’, and everything to do with having a brain and using it to sort out the lies and bullshit from facts and truth, and not seeking a scapegoat for one’s dissatisfaction with one’s lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 08:13 AM

Sorry, that should have been, “The wish to remain in the EU, in my personal case, has very little to do with ‘class’....”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 09:43 AM

I have a good idea. Those that voted to leave can go to the USA with The Trump later this week. They can avoid all those harmful EU laws, not be limited to the hours they work or take any holidays and pay for their own health and social care. The rest of us can stay in Europe where we belong and benefit from a reduction in the number of right wing little Englanders as well as better employment laws, more social care and higher food standards. The roads should be quieter with 17 million less people too:-) win-win!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:14 AM

All very well - piss off, you effectively say.

It was our parents who fought for this country. Our excessive tax burden on very low wages that kept the country going through the years when it was dispensing charity with both hands to the EU.

You've paid for the meal, give us the money for the night club - now you can bugger off.

You can see, its middle class kids powering this drive towards sodding up the economy permanently. You've heard this attitude to their parents for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:22 AM

Oh dear, oh dear.

One of the heroes of Iains took an EU loan and moved his operation to Malaysia.

Well who'd have guessed it.!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:27 AM

Yet he still pays over £100,000,000 in tax this last year to the UK. What miserable amount can you generate?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 11:54 AM

Any evidence for that statement .............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:16 PM

The richest 1% in the UK contribute 28% of all income tax, with famous names including David and Victoria Beckham in the top 50 taxpayers. Sir James Dyson, Mike Ashley and the Beckham family were among those who paid the most tax in the UK last year.Jan 27, 2019
Sir James Dyson is third on the list with £127.8m.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:30 PM

The richest 1% in the UK contribute 28% of all income tax

And have rather more left after tax than most. No, this is not "envy", it just presenting both sides of the picture as you recommend elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:35 PM

Dyson I presume? The company who's profits topped £1 billion last year? By anyone's reckoning £100 million is 10% of £1 billion using the US definition of 1 billion being 1000 million. Why have they paid so little when even the basic rate of tax to us mere mortals is 20%?

Al, wtf has our parents fighting in the war got to do with anything? If you hadn't noticed, there has been peace in Europe for nearly 75 years now. While the EU is not directly responsible for that, it plays a huge role. What is this EU charity we have been paying our hard earned wages to? You are talking nonsense now. Which brings us to middle class kids ruining the economy. You have lost me there. Just who are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:38 PM

...and, yes, it is you that wants to leave Europe. Not me. If you really want to do so, feel free. But don't take me with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 01:54 PM

People setting off to fight on D day, reportedly said we expect jobs when we get back. THe EEC, the international capitalism (with rich folk investing everywhere but Britain) and big bang economics that came in its wake have done for British industry and the jobs.

The Welfare State was what the war heroes voted for when they returned.

I'm sorry you don't see the significance. Europe has gone missing whenever we have been threatened or needed their cooperation ever since.

Whether its been sympathy for the IRA in the Euro Courts, or denying airspace for bombing Gadaffi after the Lockerbie bomb, supplying Galtieri - and a dozen other examples - they always go missing or worse.

If it had been us that needed help this side of the English Channel - the 2nd WW wouldn't have happened. If doing sod all is helping to keep the peace - they're the boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 01:59 PM

Iains mate ...that point about tax....you're making us look stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM

If doing sod all is helping to keep the peace - they're the boys.

They have managed it for nearly 75 years. Longest period of peace Europe has ever known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:26 PM

That has more to do with NATO than the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:32 PM

Maybe. Maybe it was a lot of factors. But they all work towards keeping the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:36 PM

I have a good idea. Those that voted to leave can go to the USA with The Trump later this week.

SOD THAT !!! We have more than a sufficiency of utter fuckwits here already, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:39 PM

If Trump has his way you can kiss goodbye to NATO as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 03:22 PM

Dave the gnome obviously cannot differentiate between dyson the man and his tax payments and Dyson the company and its liability (£1.5 billion over the last 5 years.
It is also necessary to bear in mind corporate entities are subject to regular audit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 03:34 PM

Yeah a real patriot is your man Dyson.

Took European money to move his operations to Malaysia. You can bet he won't be paying UK tax on future profits from that.

That in my book is akin to the 'treachery' that you are so fond of accusing remainers and even members of the government of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 03:35 PM

Don't you dare bring up the war Big Al, my father was fighting in the jungles of Burma long after the D Day lot were home with their families. And he would be thoroughly ashamed of what the country is turning into now. Its not what he fought for. Whilst he was still alive, I was traveling to and working with colleagues from both Germany and Japan. And he thought that was great.

Interesting that you should mention bombing Libya after Lockerbie, when it almost certainly wasn't the Libyans who did it. The USA stuffed us there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 05:57 PM

Mine too, when I was having records released in Germany. He was very proud. And my Dad fought through Caen, Vieux Bocage, the Low Countries, the ctossing of the Rhine in a Sherman tank. Quite a lot of his comrades didn't come home to their families.

But he thought the EEC was bollocks and he was right. So I say what I say with quite as much authority as you do.

Gadaffi had been giving succour to the terrorists which plagued and attacked our society for years. Not almost certainly. Definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 03:01 AM

And all this is to do with the EU because..?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 07:20 AM

Brexit a complete clusterfuck? “Look over there - Jeremy Corbyn {{insert chosen Righty-invention here}}.

The standard diversion-tactic of the Righty nut-jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 10:53 AM

Now both the ambassador and Mr Trump have suggested the NHS is to be considered as part if the trade deal. Matt Hancock has said no, and we await the view from most other potential MPs.

I don't support anyone here in favour of a trade deal wants to declare a red line: "no trade deal if it includes the NHS in any way"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 10:55 AM

Other potential PMs, of course, not MPs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 10:59 AM

Even by my standards, there was a lot of eccentric typing errors in that previous-but-one post. I hope people can glean what I meant without my needing to post a corrected version, but let me know if you want me to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 12:29 PM

I worked it out but I'm sure Nigel will be along shortly ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 07:08 AM

Oh dear. oh dear.

Reported that Farage has been called to the European Parliament "to explain in person his failure to declare lavish expenses funded by Arron Banks, an insurance tycoon under investigation by the UK’s National Crime Agency."

These expenses may include " £13,000-a-month Chelsea home in the year of the Brexit referendum, visits to the US and a chauffeur-driven car."

Something else that slipped under my radar was a that "Farage, an MEP for two decades, was docked half his salary last year after being found to have misspent EU funds intended to staff his office."

Well fancy that Farage guilty of misspending EU funds.

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 07:25 AM

Makes Labour MP, Fiona Onasanya’s offence of fibbing over a speeding ticket, that our Resident Right-Wing Extremist Blabber-Gob kept trying to turn into some kind of major international organised crime, pale into utter insignificance, dunnit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:11 PM

No point in making any comment. Anything contrary to the lefty narrative is promptly deleted.

Feel free to continue with your delusions, you only fool yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 02:29 PM

Basically Iains cannot, with any honestly, defend his "champions".

Farage, Johnson, Yaxley-Lennon Dyson, Banks et al.

At least Iains has the wit not to pursue their cause further.









Or does he!?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:09 AM

It's been quite a long time now, and no comments on the idea that the NHS should be part of a trade deal with the NHS (and yes, I know Trump said two completely different things an hour apart. SO he could switch back to his original statement equally easily.)

Of course, the NHS is not a single thing: it would be possible to have say the mechanisms of NHS drug purchasing - which the US hate - part of the deal but not something else.

So imagine the US decides to play hard-ball. Their stance is (some aspects of the) NHS is part of the deal, or there is no deal at all.

Forget what any of the politicians say. What do our resident Brexiteers say?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:29 AM

Popcorn anyone...??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 03:22 AM

Popcorn ? What a good idea !
To have while awaiting the results of the Peterborough By-election where the Brexit party is expected to give their opposition a fine drubbing. Truly a popcorn moment !

I cannot wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 04:41 AM

Voters might do better to listen to these people. than let themselves be misled by the multi-millionaire man-frog and his sycophantic followers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 05:29 AM

I'm only quoting the full post to make clear what I'm replying to:
It's been quite a long time now, and no comments on the idea that the NHS should be part of a trade deal with the NHS (and yes, I know Trump said two completely different things an hour apart. SO he could switch back to his original statement equally easily.)
Of course, the NHS is not a single thing: it would be possible to have say the mechanisms of NHS drug purchasing - which the US hate - part of the deal but not something else.
So imagine the US decides to play hard-ball. Their stance is (some aspects of the) NHS is part of the deal, or there is no deal at all.
Forget what any of the politicians say. What do our resident Brexiteers say?

The fact that some aspect of the NHS is on the table as part of the deal does not mean that anything involving the NHS will be part of a final deal.

On the table seems to be a widely misunderstood idea.

Brexit negotiations need to keep "No Deal" on the table. It doesn't mean it will be part of the final decision, but if it is not kept on the table, then it is not available as a fall back position if all we are offered is a poor deal.
Similarly, keeping NHS on the table does not mean that we are surrendering the option not to make it part of any deal.

So having the NHS on the table is not the same as saying it will be part of any trade deal. It is just keeping all options open during the opening of any negotiations.

Hopefully any negotiations would not be handled by someone with the lack of business acumen of Theresa May, who seemed to think that you open negotiations by making all possible concessions, and then expect to still have something to negotiate with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 06:52 AM

I agree with all of that Nigel but it does not address the key question. If the US insist they do get access the aspects of the NHS or they no deal, do we say ok or do we no deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 07:56 AM

Hmmm Peterborough By-Election .........

Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on Welfare
Mr Greene: Er .. I haven't got one
Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on Housing
Mr Greene: Er .. I haven't got one
Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on the NHS
Me Greene: Er .. yet to be formulated .. I haven't got one
Me: Mr Green what is your policy on Education
Mr Greene: Er .. we have got one yet
Me: Mr Greene what is your policy on Defence
Mr Greene: Er ... what... er I haven't got one I'm fairly new to this game

I could go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 09:01 AM

I agree with all of that Nigel but it does not address the key question. If the US insist they do get access the aspects of the NHS or they no deal, do we say ok or do we no deal?
That would have to depend on what aspects of the NHS they were asking for access to, and what we would be getting in return. As a general question, with no specifics, it makes little or no sense.
We need (once Brexit is achieved) an opening stance for any negotiations.
Two positions which would be equally ridiculous are:
We will give you full access to all aspects of NHS even if we get nothing in return.
and:
No matter what you offer us we will never allow you access to any aspects of the NHS under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 09:17 AM

We know what they are asking for Nigel. They have published a negotiating document. So that side of the equation is well known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 09:23 AM

US negotiating objectives

Read the section on pharmaceuticals, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:08 AM

"No matter what you offer us we will never allow you access to any aspects of the NHS under any circumstances."

That is not at all a ridiculous position. It should be our only position. If they don't like it they can do one. Unlike with the EU, in this case they really do need us more than we need them. In fact I fail to see why we need them at all, what do they produce which we need?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:48 AM

”Read the section on pharmaceuticals, for example.”

I’m sure the section on ‘State-Owned and Controlled Enterprises’ didn’t escape your attention either, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:50 AM

”In fact I fail to see why we need them at all, what do they produce which we need?”

WMDs and their delivery & control systems?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 11:33 AM

I read the section on pharmaceuticals, and on SOEs (State owned enterprises).
I also read the introduction, which seems to be in line with my comments above:
On October 16, 2018, the Trump Administration notified Congress that the President intends to negotiate a trade agreement with the United Kingdom (UK) once it leaves the European Union (EU), in accordance with section 105(a)(l)(A) of the Bipartisan Congressional Trade Priorities and Accountability Act of 2015 (the Trade Priorities and Accountability Act). Our specific objectives for this negotiation will comply with the specific objectives set forth by Congress in section 102 of the Trade Priorities and Accountability Act.
I realise that American English may differ from British English, but to me the section I've put in bold deals with 'objectives' (a 'wish list') this does not mean that failure to reach one or more 'objective' will mean no deal, just not one which meet all of the objectives.
The paperwork is even headed "Summary of specific negotiating objectives" (same implied meaning). It's just a shame our government didn't think to issue something similar before starting to negotiate with Brussels.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 12:53 PM

The whole paper is negotiating objectives, Nigel. We know that means that these are what will be sought but it accepts they may not all be achieved.

All the commentary I have read on this says it is very much an 'America First' stance. Which is exactly what you would expect: of course the US is putting together the objectives it thinks are in its interests - why would it not, in any circumstances, never mind under an 'America First' administration. So there are lots of phrases that must be read at a deeper level than just the obvious meaning:

Eliminate practices that unfairly decrease U.S. market access opportunities or distort agricultural markets to the detriment of the United States, including:
? Non-tariff barriers that discriminate against U.S. agricultural goods; and
? Restrictive rules in the administration of tariff rate quotas.

Those are things like making the UK accept GM foods, whether it wishes to or not, and no labelling that lets the consumer know. This is stressed elsewhere

Establish new and enforceable rules to eliminate unjustified trade restrictions or unjustified commercial requirements (including unjustified labeling) that affect new technologies.



It is obvious that in principle we can decide not to accept these terms, but once again, the question boils down to are you prepared to "no deal" to maintain your position? So far, the impression I get, Nigel, is that in principle you are prepared to trade anything if the price is right,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 01:49 PM

The Americans know full well that the UK will be absolutely desperate for a trade agreement, and they will seek to take advantage of that. Nigel may have confidence that the government’s negotiators will resist, for instance, the inclusion of some or all of our healthcare provision, or drastic increases in the cost of drugs from the US. There are many of us though who don’t share that confidence, given the number of MPs who have vested interests in private healthcare and drug manufacturing businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:41 PM

Makes you wonder why Aaron Banks, who made his millions in insurance, is bankrolling Farage and whatever his party of the month is. Surely he is not thinking there may be an opening in health insurance once the NHS is up for grabs. Nah, surely not ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 12:50 AM

"Popcorn ? What a good idea !
To have while awaiting the results of the Peterborough By-election where the Brexit party is expected to give their opposition a fine drubbing. Truly a popcorn moment !"


Bwahaha! And how nice of the Brexit spokesman to blame houses full of Pakistanis for Labour's victory...

Leopards don't change their spots, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:02 AM

Thank heavens people are beginning to see sense. In a city where brexit polled over 60% in the referendum, the electorate seem to have given the nasty party the boot. Of course the nicotine stained toad will try to spin it as a great victory but it seems that less than half of those who voted leave are still committed to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:06 AM

And how nice of the Brexit spokesman to blame houses full of Pakistanis for Labour's victory

Although Farage would have loved to win, I don't think he would be too bothered by a close result. He will, however, be furious with whoever said that. A key part of his strategy is that all the nasty racists have been left behind in UKIP and the Brexit Party is pure as the proverbial snow. Messages that show that is not the case are far more damaging than merely losing a single contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:10 AM

He sneaked out of a back door minutes before the result was announced.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:47 AM

Our Resident Right-Wing-Extremist-Gammon ex-Squaddie Fruitcake will be along in a minute to tell us it was a ‘magnificent result’ for the ‘valiant Mr. Farage’. I’d have loved to see him doing his square-bashing on basic training, I can hear it now - “But sergeant-major, it’s not me who’s out of step, it’s everyone else!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:51 AM

Very close run results.
Was it a Labour "we support brexit candididate"?
or a Labour "we do not support brexit candidate"?

The acceptance speech gave no clarity

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 03:00 AM

Your popcorn has turned into sour grapes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 03:29 AM

BNot at all. Peterborough has always been a swing constituency. To use your own arguments the winner has less of a mandate that the brexiteers. The referendum result was won by a larger percentage than Labour's tenuous grasp on this seat.˜ 3.7/3.3 if my maths is correct.
Mathermagic tis a wonderful thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 03:48 AM

Unfortunately, individually-elected MPs don't have "mandates"... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 04:08 AM

A mandate is the authority granted by a constituency to act as its representative.
The authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election
early 16th century: from Latin mandatum ‘something commanded’, neuter past participle of mandare, from manus ‘hand’ + dare ‘give’

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 04:56 AM

The winner has a mandate neither to promote brexit nor promote leave. The winner is entitled to follow her own predilections in that regard and will face the consequences at the next election. She can't "represent" both leavers and remainers. Her job is to act in what she regards as the best interests of her constituents. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:08 AM

So you accept that you were wrong. The elctorate grants a mandate to the winner. The strength of the mandate is dictated by the size of the winning vote, as I stated.

As an aside though pertinent:
In a political first, the Labour affiliate group the Jewish Labour Movement has called for the whip to be removed from Labour’s newly elected MP for Peterborough before she has even had a chance to be sworn in as an MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:13 AM

Not an auspicious start:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/104305/jewish-labour-movement-disavow-partys

Is a deselection call in the offing?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:20 AM

Labour doing well in the polls - Oh look, antisemitism!

When will they ever learn..?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:32 AM

The electorate elects a representative. My reading of the definition of mandate is that it is an instruction to do something. An electorate definitely does not give an MP an instruction to do something. Only to represent all of the electors of that constituency, no matter whether they voted for that person or not. The size of the majority is irrelevant. If you don't understand how representative democracy works I suggest that you go back and re-read Burke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:40 AM

On antisemitism, I would listen to Jewish Voice for Labour, which is more open than the Jewish Labour Movement, and accuses the latter of being fixated on defending Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:46 AM

I think I will emulate the wild claims that are made by some posters.

Given the reason for the by-election being called it is frankly astonishing that Labour won the seat again especially with an increased margin over the second placed candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 06:47 AM

A deselection call would probably be rejected because this matter was well publicised before the vote. Iains link, is three days earlier, for example. So the rationale assumption is that voters took this into account when they voted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 07:26 AM

Given the reason for the by-election being called it is frankly astonishing that Labour won the seat again especially with an increased margin over the second placed candidate.

Not really for those prepared to dig a little
https://www.peterborough.gov.uk/council/about-peterborough/census-2011/

The size of the majority is irrelevant. If you don't understand how representative democracy works I suggest that you go back and re-read Burke.

So pray tell, why do lefties use mathermagic to constantly dispute the outcome of the brexit referendum mandate to leave the EU?

As Spike says:17.4million Leave voters – the largest mandate for anything in British political history

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 07:35 AM

Nicely avoiding my point which was that the margin of victory has INCREASED since the election of 2017.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 07:38 AM

The Brexit Party don’t seem to be above employing mathermagic either. Their bloke on ‘Politics Live’ at the moment trying to dismiss the Labour majority in the Peterborough election because it was ‘marginal’. Yet, when it’s pointed out to BrexShitters that their majority in the Referendum was marginal, their response is that it was ‘a significant majority’, and represents ‘the will of the people’.

These people really are not of this world, are they? Thankfully, they will never hold enough seats to form a government or, for that matter, be the largest opposition party in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 07:39 AM

Now May has officially stepped down it seems she can still peerage for the moment.

I had a slightly mad image of the bulk of the candidates to replace her being offered a seat in the Lords instead. I wonder how many would turn them down?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 07:40 AM

... still offer peerages...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 08:02 AM

Cannot be bothered to paraphrase, so from another source:
"Ignore the Labour/Remain crowing and hubris over Peterborough. It's facile.

Labour won over TBP in Peterborough by just 2%. In Brexit terms of 3.78% that is below marginal. Time for a second Peoples Vote to make sure, eh?

Turnout was 48% and Labour's vote decreased by a whopping -17.2%. In reality Labour 'won' with a paltry 30.9% of 48% of eligible voters. Using 'Remain logic' that is a risible 14.8% of the electorate who voted for Labour. The anti-semite socialist represents less than 15% of the people there. More than 75% of the electorate did not want Labour to represent them.

On the other hand TBP, with no previous percentage to swing from gained a 28.9% swing in its favour from a standing start and without a manifesto! Not only did they relegate Tories to third place but were snapping at Labour's heels in what was probably a Labour import rigged election anyway. The outlook is sunny for TBP. For LibLabCon not so good. That is difficult for them to see with their heads planted firmly in denial"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 08:08 AM

Rumour is that private prosecution of Boris thrown out by High Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 08:14 AM

Doesn't alter the fact that the margin of victory has increased since the elections of 2017!!

To paraphrase one of your number "Labour won ......deal with it!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 09:46 AM

For an area where 60% of the voters voted to leave in the referendum I still think the less than 30% for the brexit circus (party gives them too much respectability) shows just how many people have now seen sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 10:15 AM

“Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.”
? Mark Twain

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 10:39 AM

That reminds my of that joke about irregular parts of speech: I am firm, you are stubborn, he is a pig headed fool.

The level of misuse of statistics on the elections are quite prominent in the posts you gave, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 10:56 AM

”The anti-semite socialist...”

You mean “The alleged anti-Semite...”. As you are so fond of saying when the boot’s on the other foot, ‘innocent until proven guilty in a court of law’.

And, if she is proved to have made utterances that could be construed to be anti-Semitic, that makes her worse than the racist leader of the BP who posed in front of a ‘doctored’ photo of Syrian refugees fleeing torture, rape and murder, with the caption ‘Breaking Point - The EU has failed us’, because....what???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 12:35 PM

The level of misuse of statistics on the elections are quite prominent in the posts you gave, Iains.

The vital difference being that I use remainer statistics to demonstrate the mathemagic of remainers trying to convince the sane that they won the referendum.
I look forward to seeing proof of my own misuse of statistics

You mean “The alleged anti-Semite...”. As you are so fond of saying when the boot’s on the other foot, ‘innocent until proven guilty in a court of law’.

A very brief search will uncover her own words that condemn her. It is very hard to refute the strong whiff of antisemitism within them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 12:56 PM

I look forward to seeing proof of my own misuse of statistics

You really don't.

It goes back to what I was saying that the crux of lying is intention to deceive. Any statistic reduces a complex set of numbers to a simpler set, often just a single number. So an honest statistic does so while making every effort to keep as much useful information as possible while discarding as little useful information as possible. A lying statistic, on the other hand, typically has a point of view in mind and discards inconvenient data as far as possible in order to get the result you wish to present. A classic example is whether to look at percentages, numbers or rates of growth. Many people pick which they like to enhance their view, while ignoring the equally valid statistics that don't suit them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 01:01 PM

Nicely avoiding my point which was that the margin of victory has INCREASED since the election of 2017.
By number of votes, yes, marginally.
According to BBC the Labour vote share in 2017 was 48.1%, with Labour having a 1.3% margin over the Conservatives.
This is compared to 31% of the vote in the latest election. (from BBC, where the margin over the Conservatives had increased to 10%, but there was only a 2% margin over Brexit.
So the increase in the numerical margin was likely to be because the opposing vote was split.

You are not comparing like with like. The fact that the Labour vote share dropped noticeably to 31% suggests that they would be stopped dead by 'tactical voting'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 01:05 PM

Rumour is that private prosecution of Boris thrown out by High Court.
Even The Guardian confirms that the summons has been quashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 01:28 PM

Good timing, Nigel. Just after DMcGs post saying

A classic example is whether to look at percentages, numbers or rates of growth. Many people pick which they like to enhance their view, while ignoring the equally valid statistics that don't suit them.

You do just that. Well done.

Just a reminder to all that anti-Semitism is nothing to do with brexit. Nor is it being anti Israel or pro Palestine. In this instance it is just a mechanism to divert attention from the abysmal performance of this government to deliver anything and the blatant racism of the nicotine stained toad and his minions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 01:37 PM

”A very brief search will uncover her own words that condemn her. It is very hard to refute the strong whiff of antisemitism within them.”

So, how about your response to the actual question posed in the same post - repeated here to save you the trouble of looking back for it?

“And, if she is proved to have made utterances that could be construed to be anti-Semitic, that makes her worse than the racist leader of the BP who posed in front of a ‘doctored’ photo of Syrian refugees fleeing torture, rape and murder, with the caption ‘Breaking Point - The EU has failed us’, because....what???”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 01:40 PM

A classic example is whether to look at percentages, numbers or rates of growth. Many people pick which they like to enhance their view, while ignoring the equally valid statistics that don't suit them.

You do just that. Well done.
In response to a post which did the same but from the opposite viewpoint. Which is what I was pointing out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 01:42 PM

Nigel it was but rumour and hearsay when I posted. Confirmation came 5 minutes later.


You really don't.Oh but I do!    I await with baited breath(so to speak)

To put the by election result into remainer terms we can use a simple analogy for the proposed terms of a second referendum:

Leave with deal                Vote Tory
leave without deal             Vote Brexit Party
Stay in EU                        Vote Labour

If the vote is split between Tory supporters and the Brexit party unintended consequences occur, namely Labour shuffles in. It is a little simplistic because obviously as a local election with a 20%component of foreigners numerous factors come into play and Labour exploited this far better than the opposition,despite the new MP's controversial social media posts.

However for the Brexit party, that only came into being recently, to come a close second is a major achievement, no matter how hard you try to deny it. They came out of nowhere to take 29% of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:25 PM

So, how about your response to the actual question posed in the same post - repeated here to save you the trouble of looking back for it?

“And, if she is proved to have made utterances that could be construed to be anti-Semitic, that makes her worse than the racist leader of the BP who posed in front of a ‘doctored’ photo of Syrian refugees fleeing torture, rape and murder, with the caption ‘Breaking Point - The EU has failed us’, because....what???”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:44 PM

https://www.politicalite.com/labour-2/exclusive-convicted-labour-vote-rigger-out-campaigning-today-for-labour-in-peterborough/

I wonder if the electoral Commissioners will be checking the validity of the postal vote (6000 according to some sources)

And, if she is proved to have made utterances that could be construed to be anti-Semitic, that makes her worse than the racist leader of the BP

Labour MP Lisa Forbes, who won the Peterborough by-election on Thursday, is facing a backlash from within the Labour Party after it emerged she had liked Facebook posts that were accused of being anti-Semitic.
namely: that Ms Forbes had liked a post saying Theresa May had a “Zionist Slave Masters agenda” alongside a video of children praying after the New Zealand terrorist attack.

In another comment she said she had “enjoyed reading” a thread claiming Islamic extremism was created “by the CIA and Mossad.”

Judge for yourself !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:58 PM

No, I asked for your judgment. Man-up, stop wriggling like a belly-dancer, and answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 03:32 PM

Nigel, thanks but I am fully aware of that. However as some of your cohorts like to "juggle" with numbers I thought, as a matter of balance, I could do the same.

I did say in my post "I think I will emulate the wild claims that are made by some posters." which should have given you some indication that my tongue was in my cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 04:30 PM

No, I asked for your judgment

It is: does Bruin sh*t in the woods? The labour Party has a problem

The Equality and Human Rights Commission’s announced last week that it is to formally investigate Labour over anti-Jewish racism
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/the-probe-into-labours-anti-semitism-gives-hope-to-britains-jews/

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-official-s-bombshell-email-sparks-fears-party-tried-to-avoid-scrutiny-over-antisemitis

"Like her party leader she accuses the BBC of being “pro-Israel”, this is now a matter of course for Corbynistas. As recently as just a few months ago Forbes posted in an anti-Semitic hate group that talks of “Zionist rats”. The group itself posts content alleging the Jewish State has “improper influence” and “spends a fortune perverting our democracy”, promotes rallies organised by Hamas and proscribed terror group Palestinian Islamic Jihad."
Forbes has quietly deleted Facebook posts but they still exist. Forbes signed a letter to Labour’s NEC calling on the party to not adopt the IHRC definition of anti-Semitism in full…

"Labour MP Jess Phillips said despite Jeremy Corbyn’s party beating Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party to win the seat, “I cannot be gleeful or proud as I’d want to be because of how it shows that anti-Semitism is becoming normal in the party”.
Labour MP Wes Streeting echoed Ms Phillips’ views, adding he had not campaigned in Peterborough because he wanted to demonstrate a “zero tolerance” approach to anti-Semitism.

Labour former minister Dame Margaret Hodge said on Twitter: “Seriously mixed feelings about the Peterborough result. I never want to see Nigel Farage’s party in Parliament.“But Lisa Forbes and the Labour Party have a lot to answer for. We must learn lessons and never have a repeat of this. Have formally raised concerns with party leadership.”

The Jewish Labour Movement said Ms Forbes needed to go “far further” in her apology and condemned Party bosses for having “consistently failed to take a zero-tolerance approach to anti-Jewish hate”.
A movement spokesman added: “This has encouraged a culture to develop where not only is it acceptable for someone who has shared racist material and rejected the internationally accepted IHRA definition of anti-semitism to be a member, but they can advance politically and gain public office.”

I trust I have answered your query!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 04:39 PM

Anything positive to tell us about Brexit.............


perchance any good news .................????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 04:53 PM

If you inhabited realtime you could answer your own question. This query has been dismissed a number of times as it relies on powers of divination in order to answer it. Sadly my chicken bones do not work for me. Perhaps they have been chlorinated!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 04:55 PM

I trust I have answered your query!”

No, you haven’t. What’s more, you know you haven’t but, like a deceitful, cowardly barrack-room lawyer, you wriggle, run, and hide behind agenda-driven cut-and-pastes in order to deflect from, and avoid answering, the question.

It’s perfectly simple - do YOU regard the anti-semitism of which Lisa Forbes is accused as worse than, equal to, or not as serious as, the racism demonstrated by Farage in his poster showing him in front of a doctored photo of a line of Syrian refugees attempting to escape torture, rape, and murder, with the caption “Breaking Point - The EU has failed us”?

No hiding like a cringing coward behind cut-and-pastes of others’ words - your own opinion .

But, of course, we all know you have not the grace, the honesty, or the courage to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 05:15 PM

Back in my 'O' level English days, there were lots of questions of the form "Compare and contrast X and Y". An answer that went into X at great length but didn't mention Y would get an automatic fail for not answering the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 05:21 PM

Margaret bloody Hodge has a lot to answer for. She is one of the most serially disreputable and dishonest politicians we have. Go on, look her up. You really don't need allies like her, anti-Labourites. And she's my party...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 05:44 PM

And it doesn't need mathermagic to realise that we won Peterborough with an increased majority in spite of a much-reduced turnout. Well, you seem to have fallen out of love with the system! And another thing: you told us remain voters to go suck it up. That we should expect to be ignored because we lost. That we have no say and should bloody shut up. You've had the numbers for this by-election, resident chewer of the sourest of sour grapes. Here's something for you to contemplate: I don't know of any constituency in the country which had more leave Labour voters than remain Labour voters. Stick that in your festering mathermagic pipe and smoke it. Last night stuffed the brexit party, and I think you know it. Farage is a serial loser, no position gained after seven attempts, and last night he abandoned ship and crept out of the back door. You really know how to pick your heroes, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 01:59 AM

Steve, I think we both know that an attention-seeking, trolling, Right-Wing Extremist fan-boy of hate-mongers like Farage, Staines, and Yaxley-Lennon really is a worthless waste of protoplasm.

Attempting intelligent discourse with him is pointless - he has no desire to discuss or debate, his damaged psyche demands only that he ‘wins’, in any way, and by any means at his disposal. He’s a sick, sick puppy.

I’m back to ignoring the TC, and I’d recommend everyone else to do the same.

Now...any good news about BrexShit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 02:19 AM

At long last, John :-) The diversion tactics are blatant and the it will all be sunshine and unicorns after brexit is indicative of having no real argument. Simply not worth even recognising.

At least Nigel provides a bit of entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 02:40 AM

Last night stuffed the brexit party, and I think you know it.

I fear it might be more subtle than that, Steve. By analogy, consider the Mapplethorpe legal case:

===

Twenty-five years ago, art was put on trial in a highly publicized and political showdown. The Mapplethorpe obscenity trial—the first time a museum was taken to court on criminal charges related to works on display—became one of the most heated battlefronts in the era’s culture wars. Taking place over two weeks in the fall of 1990, the resulting attention challenged perceptions of art, public funding, and what constituted “obscenity.”
Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-art-fought-law-and-art-won-180956810/#Qr78tlBVrwuHMIia.99
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter
===

There was a good documentary/re-enactment account of this in a film unfortunately called 'Dirty Pictures' (which I had to account for recording to my wife and daughter, but that's another story). At the end of the film a spokesman for the Christian right wing who brought the case was asked about how they felt about losing. "We didn't lose", they responded "Faced with the costs, legal battles and effort required, no other art gallery in the country will show this or similar material without thinking very hard."

And it is the same with the Brexit Party. The influence it has in achieving its goals is far more significant than winning seats. And in that sense, it is winning. (Another good example, by the way, of how an accurate statistic - they have no seats - is misleading rather than informative.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 02:40 AM

I’m ignoring both of the barmy buggers Dave! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 03:48 AM

Child Ballad 45 - King John and the Bishop:

"Brother," quoth the shepeard, "you haue heard itt,
That a foole may teach a wisemane witt"


Not that I claim to be wise, of course, but that is why I don't like ignoring people. Even the most extreme fool may give me insights I have otherwise missed.

But I can still be very selective about what I choose to respond to. Invitations to battle, for example, are things I try to decline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 04:48 AM

No matter how much you try to trivialise, disparage or deny it, the Labour party has a problem with antisemitism. Further I would posit that the new MP for Peterborough deliberately played her racist card to appeal to a discrete demographic. The population of Peterborough is approx, 200.000 of which 11.7% are Moslem(the highest percentage of anywhere in the UK)
To extrapolate the election results to elsewhere in the country without taking into account the demographics (and reluctance to integrate of the appreciable Pakistani population) will lead to surprises come election time. This particular election was fought in a very dirty way.
Labour did not win a massive victory,they swung an election by pandering to a minority, telling them what they wanted to hear.
This is disgraceful hence the reason Labour MPs, quoted above, said what they said. The facts are what they are and cannot be disputed.
Farage standing in front of a poster is small beer in comparison.Throwing your usual insults at me does not change the facts one iota. Playing the racist card to get elected is not something the labour party can be proud of. It will come back to haunt them as more and more people wake up to their machinations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 05:27 AM

It would seem another hero of the right wing has been filmed hitting someone outside a football match in Portugal.

Yaxley-Lennon who's "criminal record includes convictions for violence, financial and immigration frauds, drug possession, public order offences, and contempt of court." (wiki) can be seen in the link below.

They don't half pick some good un's eh?

Yaxley-Lennon

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 05:47 AM

Iains repeats the racist tropes of the Brexit party, which were rightfully dismissed as sour grapes in the wake of their defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 05:49 AM

Here is something a bit more on topic, than a member of a party that has
haemorrhaged support since he joined.

https://www.politicalite.com/labour-2/exclusive-convicted-labour-vote-rigger-out-campaigning-today-for-labour-in-peterborough/

Better double check those thousands of postal votes in the recent by election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 05:52 AM

TheBrexit party was subjected to smears that had no substance. Obviously the same cannot be said of Labour. The evidence against Labour is overwhelming, even coming from their own party members and MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 06:02 AM

It seems others share my concern over the postal vote:

https://www.change.org/p/men-previously-convicted-on-postal-vote-fraud-employed-by-labour-during-this-by-election-investigate-th

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 06:04 AM

I believe it was Goebbels that said "accuse the other side of that which you are guilty".

I see his spirit lives on here and in the press. I suspect the nicotine stained toad is channelling him. Luckily most people are now wise to those tricks but sadly there are still those who suck up every bit of shit their masters feed them. I suppose we should feel sorry for them but the damage they do is unforgivable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 07:05 AM

Well it looks as though the Change.org petition linked to above has been pulled. As we're into loser sour-grape conspiracy theory territory this morning, might I suggest that it was pulled because it breached the community guidelines? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 07:39 AM

Well it looks as though the Change.org petition linked to above has been pulled.

https://www.change.org/p/men-previously-convicted-on-postal-vote-fraud-employed-by-labour-during-this-by-election-investigate-the-postal-votes-that-were-counted-in-the-peterborough-by-election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 07:41 AM

I just opened it count now over 4600.I think their platform is a tad unstable today. They also had a petition concerning the EU voting shambles for expats in Europe. So unlikely to be breaching any guidelines concerning voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 09:23 AM

The link provided at 06.02 sez different. Happy to think that there's been a cockup.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 12:57 PM

For the last conservative MP elected in Perborough the breakdown was as follows

    Majority: 2,740
    Electorate: 67,499
    Total number of votes cast: 41,204
    Adjusted turnout: 61
    Number of postal votes cast: 9,149
    Number of proxy votes cast: 130
    Number of rejected votes: 78

The electoral Commissioners have not released the breakdown for the by election yet(as far as I am aware) It is interesting just how high the postal vote was and I suspect this time it would be the same or larger.
I find it unbelievable that Labour employed persons known to have been convicted of tampering with previous elections. Hence the concern over
the propriety of the postal vote.( the petition is now 7.5k+ )

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 02:04 PM

Just in case anyone is remotely interested the last Conservative MP in Peterborough was elected 14 years ago in 2005.

It should be noted that those postal votes helped to elect a Conservative MP.

Postal votes cast 9,119
Majority          2,740

Makes you wonder doesn't it about vote rigging !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 02:13 PM

To borrow a well-known expression, coined by BrexShitters after their narrow majority in the Referendum (a majority which Froggy Farage stated prior to the Referendum that, should it be in favour of Remain, would be unacceptable and which would give rise to his demanding a re-run of the Referendum) - “We won, get over it!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 03:39 PM

So we're blaming postal voting and houses full of Pakistanis for Labour's victory. How predictable. How pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 03:11 AM

Don't forget anti-Semitism, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 05:35 AM

Let us look at the facts{

1)the elected MP is on record in public media for antisemitic remarks
2)Peterborough has one of the highest concentration of Moslems in the UK
From the Guardian: For Amjad Iqbal and Shabina Qayyum, two                                  Peterborough councillors, the result highlighted the importance of Labour support in the Asian community. "I would say the Muslim vote played a vital role in Lisa Forbes's success," Iqbal said.
3)The turnout for the postal vote was 69.4%
4)Vetting for a postal vote is far more rigorous in northern Ireland, compared to mainland Britain.(Why is that I wonder?)
5) in recent years, Peterborough City council signed-up to a government pilot scheme that would legally require voters to attend polling stations with their passport or other form of ID in order to vote. This, although doing nothing to prevent postal fraud, would have had a positive impact in tackling vote-rigging. Peterborough's participation in this logical scheme, however, was curiously cancelled by the local government shortly before the snap-election called by Theresa May in 2018.
6)Tariq Mahmood, found himself behind bars in recent years over his involvement in a Labour-led vote-rigging scandal that cost the taxpayer over £1m to investigate, and also resulted in the arrest and
eventual imprisonment of a former Labour Mayor.
In 2008, Labour's Mohammed Choudhary, 49, former mayor of Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, was jailed at King's Lynn Crown Court.
Party candidate Maqbool Hussein, 52, was jailed for three months and Tariq Mahmood, 40, received a 15-month term.All three from Peterborough, were convicted of forgery over a scheme to fabricate votes for the Peterborough city council election in June 2004.
"They were able to get hold of postal and proxy votes which belonged to voters in the central ward," prosecuting QC Anthony Leonard said.
7)The results in last years election – as with the majority of those before it – provide shocking reading, with Labour Fiona Onasanya beating Tory Brexiteer Stewart Jackson by a mere 607 votes, whilst the number of postal votes, particularly from central wards with a considerably high Pakistani community, being among the highest Peterborough had seen.
8)Lisa Thorbes won this time by a majority of 683
9) Up until the election of Fiona Onasanya the seat had been in Conservative hands since 1929 !
10)The convicted vote-rigger Tariq Mahmood was ONCE AGAIN employed by the local Labour election team and by Lisa Forbes in the latest election.
11)In 2015, a Peterborough Tory candidate made national headlines after his car was set on fire during his election campaign – allegedly by local Labour Pakistani youths who had attacked him to dissuade him from continuing to stand. A petrol bomb was also thrown at his front door, but luckily there were no casualties.
12)In 2016, Lord Pickles released a thorough official report as the culmination of an extensive investigation into the causes of electoral fraud in Britain.In the report commissioned by the Government, Sir Eric Pickles, the former Conservative Cabinet minister, warned that the authorities are in a "state of denial" and are "turning a blind eye" to election fraud due to "political correctness".
He revealed strong evidence of voter fraud "especially in communities of Pakistani and Bangladeshi background" but that the cases have been ignored because of "over-sensitivities about ethnicity and religion".

If you do not think that the postal voting needs to be investigated then you obviously no longer believe in Democracy and intend to win for the left by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:15 AM

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/sir-eric-pickles-publishes-report-into-tackling-electoral-fraud
A series of 50 recommendations are outlined in the report, including:

    clamping down on postal vote 'harvesting' by political activists
    piloting some form of identification at polling stations
   fraud
    stronger checks and balances against municipal corruption

published Aug 2016 Has the lack of progress on Brexit also stalled the recommended reforms?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:39 AM

Has the lack of progress on Brexit also stalled the recommended reforms?

Perhaps. It is obvious that those who promoted Brexit in the first place grossly underestimated how difficult it would be, and the inevitable complexity has prevented all sorts of things being carries out. And no, leaving with no deal would not have solved the complexity, because we would - and will if that happens - then be swapped trying to cope with the consequences of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:57 AM

Well needless to say my last line was written tongue in cheek. After all as I stated above Peterborough City council signed-up to a government pilot scheme that would legally require voters to attend polling stations with their passport or other form of ID in order to vote. Peterborough's participation in this logical scheme was curiously cancelled shortly before the snap-election called by Theresa May in 2018. The wily demographic of Peterborough named have extensive form for election fraud confirmed by the governments own report.

I suspect there is much more to be said about this particular
by-election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:21 PM

Ah, Eric Pickles. A superb understanding of the life of the common man!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:33 PM

Other than Peterborough voted strongly for leave in 2016 yet decided not to vote Farage's motley crew in 3 years later, WTF has all this got to do with brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:46 PM

It’s our RRWE’s diversion tactics - Brexit Party lost the By-Election in Peterborough? “Look over there...Labour vote-rigging”! He’ll drag anti-semitism into it shortly!

BTW, I just noticed. Hasn’t Eric Pickles got tiny hands!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:02 PM

WTF has all this got to do with brexit?

It is all to do with democracy, just like honouring the Brexit referendum Result

and for those that are convinced postal vote shenanigans cannot occur in a ward with previous!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7985257/Five-jailed-for-electoral-fraud.html


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-47535867

Over 16000 have now signed the petition to investigate the postal vote.

Interesting the Electoral Commissioners have not investigated. Had the Tories come second I suspect a very different outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:10 PM

Ok, back to Brexit. Here is a LONG youtube article which is an interview from last December between Rory Stewart, now a prospective candidate for PM, and James O'Brien. As a reminder, that was around six months before May resigned.

As I have said before, to me Rory Stewart talks more sense than any of the other potential PMs. However, because he goes for sense rather than cheer-leading, he stands little or no prospect of success.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:14 PM

Of far more significance for brexit are the number of missing postal votes during the referendum. Quite possibly more than the margin that leave had.

Now there is something worth investigating rather than pandering to naughty Nigel's little tantrums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:14 PM

So just 0.25 percent of activists have said we should investigate this ..............


0.25 percent ......... I think I could get many people to say Boddington's beer is not as good as it used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:16 PM

Sorry for the failed clicky. Try C&Ping the URL

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-disenfranchised-expats-denied-eu-referendum-missing-postal-votes-demand-re-run-hundreds-a7103066.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:18 PM

”Over 16000 have now signed the petition to investigate the postal vote.”

So?? Over SIX MILLION Signed the petition to revoke A50, and you and the other BrexShit-supporters here said it should be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:20 PM

Anyway, stop whining, grow a pair of balls, man-up, and accept that WE WON, GET OVER IT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:46 PM

Why are you still addressing the twonk, John?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 03:27 PM

I know, Dave - Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 04:52 AM

There is a major distinction to be made between signing a petition
1)to rerun a perfectly legal referendum because you cannot accept the majority vote
2)to investigate potential electoral fraud, in an area where previous criminal activity has been associated with voting irregularities.

If you think both petitions are the same further discussion with you is pointless, because you obviously lack the knowledge to be able to differentiate between a potential crime and   a refusal to accept a democratic vote. Your recent contributions are merely intended to provoke instead of addressing the issues.
Your Peterborough Labour MP has now been castigated by 6 Labour MPs for her antisemitic stance and yet Corbyn refuses to act. Do you not think that is a matter for concern, especially in the light of a recently initiated formal investigation into antisemitism within the Labour Party? Your attempts here to trivialise and mock their nvestigation will have zero impact on its outcome.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/investigation-opened-labour-party-following-complaints-about-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 02:08 AM

A letter here, from a number of eminent individuals with intellects immensely superior to that of our Resident Right-Wing Extremist, and minds considerably more open than his, expressing concern about biased reporting of alleged ‘anti-semitism’ in the LP, and Jeremy Corbyn in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 04:50 AM

You could point out that all the facts are substantiated by a report from the media reform coilition, John, but that would encourage him to greater heights of nonsensical invective. Far better just to leave it to the moderation team. Nowt to do with brexit so quite rightly destined for the bin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 05:24 AM

Well, to drag matters back from opportunistic and sour-grapist attacks on "Labour's antisemitism," so predictable and so shabby, there's a piece in today's Guardian ("EU view of Tory leadership candidates deeply critical, say sources") that should burst the over-optimistic and hubristic bubble in which the leading candidates appear to exist. Johnson, Raab and Hunt are all, in turn, excoriated and shrugged at. If they really think that the EU is in any shape or form going to reopen negotiations on "the deal" then they are sadly deluded. No matter who wins the poisoned chalice they will simply be Theresa May Mk II as far as the EU is concerned. Not only that, there will still be no parliamentary majority for the Tories and no majority for anything remotely like anything that's been on the table so far, certainly not for no-deal. I note that talk of the 39 billion is in the offing again. Just think about the reaction of our biggest trading partner if we crash out and refuse to pay our dues...

The Tory leadership bid is just as amazingly unreal as the whole bloody brexit shambles. One noticeable thing from the Guardian piece, however, is that Gove doesn't figure in it. In spite of his obnoxiously-patronising attitude and his sheer hypocrisy over his drug-taking (about which, frankly, I give not a shit, even though I've never taken an illicit substance in my life), I have a funny feeling that he'd be the least bad of a bloody awful bunch...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:24 AM

so predictable and so shabby
Yup. look at Labour in Peterborough having a criminal convicted of electoral fraud helping in the last couple of elections,with the postal votes concentrated in one ward. Political correctness and accusations of waycism are inhibiting the clean up of these Augean stables.

“For the Parliamentary by-election held on 6 June 2019 there were 13,682 postal votes issued”, an official announcement from Peterborough’s returning officer began. “9,898 of these were returned of which 400 were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth (or both) not matching our records.”
The number of votes cast at the various polling stations across the City was 24,500. Overall, the total number of verified ballot papers (including the almost 10,000 postal votes that made their way to the count room) was 33,998.

This means that of the votes counted that led to the win of Labour’s anti-semitic candidate Lisa Forbes, a whopping 29% were postal votes – a method of voting renowned for the way in which it is easily manipulated by election-riggers like Tariq Mahmood and his murky associates.

The jaw-dropping figure also equates to a staggering 69.6% valid return rate of all postal votes sent out.
But that wasn’t the only shock in store for Peterborians and citizens across the country, as the council’s statement also unwittingly exposed the equally damning results of the 2017 snap election, which saw incumbent Tory Brexiteer Stewart Jackson lose his seat to criminal Fiona Onasanya by under 700 votes.

“In the 2017 Parliamentary election for the Peterborough constituency there were 14,293 postal votes issued” the announcement continued. “11,930 of these were returned of which 379 were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth (or both) not matching our records. This equates to 81% valid return rate”,

During both elections – for Labour’s Onasanya and Labour’s Lisa Forbes – close friend of Peterborough Labour leader Shaz Nawaz, convicted vote-rigger Tariq Mahmood, was hired to play a key role in the election campaign team and on both occasions, despite his fondness for destroying democracy, was given exclusive access to the election count room.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:45 AM

"so predictable and so shabby. Yup. look at Labour in Peterborough having a criminal convicted of electoral fraud helping in the last couple of elections,with the postal votes concentrated in one ward. Political correctness and accusations of waycism are inhibiting the clean up of these Augean stables."

And this from the man who frequently quotes the ex bankrupt, four times convicted Paul Staines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:50 AM

Brexit a shambles? "Look over there - Labour anti-semitism!".

Brexit Party beaten in the Peterborough By-Election? "Look over there, Labour vote-rigging!".

Is that really the best they, or their delusional, red-faced-Gammon supporters can do?

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:51 AM

Financially, ex bankrupt. Morally, still so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 08:01 AM

And this from the man who frequently quotes the ex bankrupt, four times convicted Paul Staines

I look forward to seeing you supply the evidence for the above. Are you trying to play the same silly games as he who must not be mentioned?
Just one quote will suffice. Failing that an apology will fit the bill nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 08:10 AM

Easily done, From one of your posts dated 7th April.

"https://order-order.com/2019/04/05/corbyns-evidence-shows-cooking-books-terrorist-wreath-laying-trip/

from Guido of course. The scourge of bubbleheaded leftards!"

I don't expect an apology, people of your ilk never apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 10:40 AM

I guess I will have to grovel. I had it fixed in my mind you were using a nom de plume of Mr Robinson whom I have frequently been accused of supporting.

If we are going to disregard journalists because of drunk driving, bankruptcy and other failings and not gauge their worth by their editorial content, why hold politicians in such high esteem? Were you not one of those arguing they were mighty men like men of yore, much more qualified to make decisions than the little people. One quite happily admits to having used class One drugs, one has been booted out for perverting the course of justice,several are subject to possible recall procedures because of lying to their electorate and labour MPs have been accused of antisemitism. I would suggest their feet of clay are far more hydrated than those of Mr Guido.
Let us look at Mr Gove,a PM hopeful.
After the revelation that Gove was sniffing lines of cocaine whilst writing lines attacking middle-class cocaine use, rival campaigns are now trawling through Gove’s Times articles looking for interesting policy positions. One that was passed to Guido is particularly appealing and would likely go down a treat with a large segment of the Tory membership. “Bring back hanging”, a classic vote winner with Tory members if there ever was one!
or
Chucklebuttie having her kids educated in public schools, with
Diane Abbot, Emily Thornberry and Seumas Milne sending their children to selective state schools, while Angela Rayner blasted the Government’s plans for a new model of grammar schools insisting they “do not improve social mobility” and are “not good for our education system”. Classic labour hypocrisy there I am afraid. Dachas for the elite, the gulags for the hoipolloi

Your outrage would appear most exceedingly selective,but then blinkers are a by product of wearing lefty rose tinted specs.
Too much gruniard addles the brain!

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 10:56 AM

" same silly games as he who must not be mentioned?"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/5173475/Guido-Fawkes-the-colourful-life-of-the-man-who-brought-down-Damian-McBride.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:00 AM

Any good news about BrexShit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:04 AM

Editorial content my arse, sound bites of the lowest quality from a disreputable, right wing blogger, who had links to the BNP and described himself as a "right-wing pain in the butt" who, again in his own words, "sought to "smear Labour MPs and left-leaning lawyers and writers"

Strange bedfellows you keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:37 AM

I have just spoken to the passport office and despite the fact we have not left the EU, they are already refusing to issue European Union Passports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 12:19 PM

Hello Jim. Good to see you back :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:17 PM

Steve, I thought my last post about the pre-emptive actions of the passport office was pertinent to the thread subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 02:14 AM

It was very pertinent, SPB. It is a good example of how we have managed to get some of the imagery Brexiteers want, but none of the substance.

The value of a passport is entirely in how other countries treat it (plus some in-country ID purposes.) To that end, it matters not a jot whether the cover says European, United Kingdom, Rivendell or The Land of the Orange Ogres(*). Do other countries - France, Germany US, Argentina, Thailand and the hundred or so others - recognise it as valid? That is all that counts in the end. So changing the wording on the cover has the same real significance as changing the colour. A meaningless alteration to keep Brexiteers happier, but no change of any significance at all.


* A friend once lived in a rented property of that name. Any similarity to Trump is co-incidental.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 09:29 AM

There are many nasty things found in Irish bogs. One, that is yet another import, is the Canadian Pitcher Plant.
First the victim is lured to the rim of the pitchers by attractive meaty-coloured patterns, and by tempting droplets of nectar. When the victim aarives, it soon loses its footing on the slippery ridges around the throat of the pitcher, helped by hairs which point downward preventing its escape. Victims drown in a watery grave containing digestive juices and detergents for penetrating the microscopic breathing holes along the sides of an insect's body.

The plant increases its chances of making a successful catch by spicing its nectar with intoxicating narcotic, so that the victims roll around in a drunken stupor. The walls of the pitcher are lined with slippery cells, and with no foothold to grab onto, the prisoner slowly falls into the watery depths of the pitcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 10:16 AM

Possibly his most coherent post to date.

Back to Brexit. A cross party motion aims to give PM the opportunity to block a no-deal exit from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 12:02 PM

The cross party motion failed. The government has won and rightly so.
A Lawful opposition is one thing,trying to wrest control of Parliament with no accountability smacks of sedition.
Perhaps this should be tested in the courts- it has far more substance than numbers on the side of a bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 12:54 PM

trying to wrest control of Parliament with no accountability

It is possible to argue that the attempt was wise, or unwise. It is possible to argue that the attempt was desirable or not. It is possible to argue that it was a good use of an opposition day or not.

Just about the only thing it is not possible to argue was that it was not accountable. The opposition had to account for the reasons they wanted to do this, and Parliament held them to account and found them wanting. But is was 100% held to account for its proposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 02:24 PM

Not so. Parliament must be accountable to the electorate. For a rabble to seize control with the connivance of the speaker leads to zero accountability. There lies the way to the socialist paradise, National Socialism, a totalitarian state! It can onlybe described as reckless behaviour
" The Commons is not itself able to govern. Governing requires coherence    in    responding    to    events    and    circumstances    nationally    and internationally. Therefore, for so long as the Commons is unwilling to withdraw its confidence, Her Majesty’s ministers can and should insist on their responsibility to govern. Legislation designed to usurp the Government’s functions should be blocked, in the first instance by relying on the House’s own procedures. If the Speaker were to subvert the normal rules, as he has, the Government might   legitimately   prorogue   Parliament,   ending   a   session   of   Parliament prematurely to prevent a Bill from being passed by both Houses.


https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Endangering-Constitutional-Government.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 03:22 PM

I guess all the tricks that May tried to bypass governmental procedures has been forgotten by the Mayflies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 03:44 PM

Ye gods and little fishes ....... sorry guys I know this is not strictly Brexit but one of the Tory hopefuls as leader of the party, and therefore the government, who have to sort out the complete shambles left by May is alleged to have claimed £8,750 in expenses for a personal photographer.

WHAT!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/12/esther-mcvey-expensed-thousands-of-pounds-for-personal-photographer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 05:05 PM

The significance is that if we are forced to leave without a deal, for the next 10 years when we visit other states we can pretend to be ignorant and try to use the biometric microchip gates on the grounds that an EU passport should work in EU passport channels. If enough visitors do this, then hopefully passport officials will eventually get fed up and just give us free movement anyway.

A more important issue is that by virtue of being a national in an EU member state, we enjoy the same visa-free travel as the rest of the EU outside of the EU - for example ETA for visiting Canada. What has the FCO done so far to force the rest of the world to put in place identical passport arrangements for the UK on 1 November - just in case?? If Visas will be required in the future, what arrangements have the FCO made to ensure that the tax payer and not the individual foots the bill?   What arrangements have the FCA made in the event of reciprocal visaless travel ending to force the embassies and consular offices to have staff at every airport in the UK to process visas at less than an hour's notice, and for the FCA present to pay the visa fees?

Another issue - HM Customs have not yet confirmed that there will be no change to the rules regarding limits and duties of purchases made in EU states, or if there will be changes, the FCO putting in place measures for the tax payers rather than the individual to pay the additional duties.

What measures have the FCA put in place to force the EU to allow UK nationals to live/study/work in/retire to other EU states beyond the 90 day restrictions that applies to the rest of the world?

We are about to face the biggest degradation of our rights in living memory, and our useless government is prepared to just let it happen as if people don't matter?

Finally, why are UK nationals, if they fall in love with someone fro Europe, why leavers think they have the right to decide whether or not they can pursue heir relationships. If the Tories get away with the minimum wage cap, then surely we should be deporting all UK nationals who fail to meet the same earning level. In my book having different rules for different people is racist.

I could go on for hours about further losses of rights, but I will leave it at this. I hope all the above is in line with the original purpose of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 12:30 AM

SPB The exception will be travel from uk to ireland, this is covered by the common travel arrangement which predates either country joining the common market, however the whole situation is a complete mess, what is need is either a general election or a second referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 02:15 AM

I am not so sure about the Common Travel Area exception. It did exist before the EU, certainly, but at the time the Republic did not have the free movement with France, etc etc: it had a hard border with Europe. As a member of the EU, that has changed. So now there is free movement into the Republic, there would be free movement via the CTA between the Republic and the North, and free movement between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

This may happen, because Parliament doesn't seem to think at all about Ireland unless it is forced into it, but I think there is only one way of avoiding it while still having a CTA: much more frequent ID checks of all UK citizens as they go about their daily business to find people who have got in by some means. I think it very unlikely to go anything like this far, but in extremis it would be police demanding to see your papers whenever they wished. We have already gone a fair way down this road as it is, with identity needing to be proved when getting a job, or renting a flat, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:07 AM

Obligation to show papers/ID on the street would be a massive erosion of freedoms, almost going back to wartime/cold war Europe. Even countries that have retain obligations to carry id rarely enforce it these days, unlike 70s 80s Czechoslovakia where the brutal VB would arrest people for not carrying id and carry out frequent spot check to make sure people are complying

We indeed seem to be shifting towards far right politics, and if that happens, the impact on personal freedom would be far far worse that what leavers wrongly imaging that the EU impose on us.

Reading that farage whats to relax gun laws should be a serious warning of what may be to come in the future.

The trouble is that the EU have been so good at creating cohesion that virtually everyone in the UK has forgotten what living in a fascist state means, and as mainland UK was never occupied in WW2 the noone here has experienced it for real, and bizarrely British people now would prefer to live in an insular, oppressive state, rather than the freedoms we enjoy through international cooperation.

We should be worried about that and also the readiness of people to blame people from Europe for their oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:15 AM

Just to be clear - I am strongly opposed to such ID checks. It is simply that it is one way of overcoming the problems that some of the more right-wing will come up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:35 AM

I think it very unlikely to go anything like this far, but in extremis it would be police demanding to see your papers whenever they wished
This already happens within the EU in some countries. From personal experience I know that it happens regularly in Spain and Ireland if driving a vehicle Most of the time it is to check the car is legally on the road, but in both countries a driving license must be carried while driving so it is not unusual to be asked to show it. Other road blocks in Ireland are more thorough,involving social welfare and revenue officers as wellas the Gardaí, but are not as common. The UK is very lucky that such roadblocks are extremely rare, but ANPR has much the same impact.
Whether such checks are a good or bad thing, or if they reduce criminality, is another discussion. The reality is that such checks already exist elsewhere within the EU and are not considered onerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:39 AM

"The trouble is that the EU have been so good at creating cohesion that virtually everyone in the UK has forgotten what living in a fascist state means, and as mainland UK was never occupied in WW2 the noone here has experienced it for real, and bizarrely British people now would prefer to live in an insular, oppressive state, rather than the freedoms we enjoy through international cooperation."

That's an excellent point. We are the only EU country that didn't endure Nazi occupation. That helps to explain the difference between our insular national mindset (if there is such a thing) and that of the other EU members. I suppose they recall far more sharply than we do why the Common Market was founded in the first place. Neither my children nor I have ever been called up to fight in a European war. One of the many good reasons for being a member of the EU is to keep that threat at bay. And were there to be no no EU it would be a real threat, what with the rise of far-right populism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:22 AM

"The trouble is that the EU have been so good at creating cohesion that virtually everyone in the UK has forgotten what living in a fascist state means
Not quite true.
The Brexit party
Le Pen
Continual rioting in France including teargas released on May Day
Catalonia and banned MEP and Independence struggle.
I could go on!
A report rather out of date in view of the recent EU MEP elections.


https://www.ecfr.eu/publications/summary/crisis_cohesion_ten_year_review
and this has to be read with the Mandy Rice-davies view that "They would say that wouldn't they?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:52 AM

That's an excellent point. We are the only EU country that didn't endure Nazi occupation.
For starters there's:
Ireland
Iceland
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland,

Also any countries which were Allies of Germany wouldn't have "endured Nazi occupation".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 06:24 AM

Ireland....................... Neutral in WW11
Iceland.......................      Ditto
Portugal......................      Ditto
Spain.........................      Ditto **
Sweden........................      Ditto
Switzerland...................      Ditto


** Franco did send just one "Blue" Division to fight one the Eastern Front

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 06:57 AM

Adopting the very finest Nitpicking-Nigs tradition, I’d just mention that neither Iceland nor Switzerland are EU Member-States.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 08:57 AM

That was a careless error on my part. I could have said one of the very few countries now in the EU not to have endured a fascist regime in the 20th century. Switzerland isn't an EU country, by the way. The point stands, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:03 AM

The dissolution of the EU would make war in Europe far more likely. The EU insists on democracy in its member states. Without the EU it is likely that some countries would retreat from democracy. We live in times in which the far right is in ascendancy. Democracies rarely fight each other in wars. The last pan-European war led to the murder of six million Jews by fascists. Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:28 AM

The last pan-European war led to the murder of six million Jews by fascists. Remember?
"pan-European"= across the whole of Europe.
I thought Steve Shaw had just accepted that not all of Europe was at war, nor even 'occupied'.

It seems he's back to Humpty-Dumpty use of English.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:29 AM

hi

there are a number of comments saying that we were the only EU country

that was not occupied in WW2.

The Channel Islands were occupied for most of the war.

I have been to the Channel Islands and have seen many examples of occupation. The underground hospital is probably the best example.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:36 AM

Nigel, the rest of us understood just what Steve was saying, why oh why do you have to be so pedantic.

Tell you what, give us some good news about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:45 AM

"Give us some good news . . ."
All being well it will happen by 31 October 2019.
Of course, you may not consider that good news!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:00 AM

Again, everyone understands what was meant Nigel. Is there any news that says brexit will benefit the economy? Benefit the peace in Northern Ireland? Benefit the ordinary people of the UK as opposed to the Rees-Moggs and Rupert Murdochs of the world? Benefit the scientific research world? Benefit pan-European and world security? Benefit anything at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:02 AM

No not really Nigel.

Have you heard or read of any positive forecasts for the UK economy post Brexit for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:48 AM

From dictionary.com:
pan-European:

"adjective:
of or relating to all or most of the countries of Europe."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:59 PM

Totally brilliant and heartrending contribution at the beginning of Question Time from Francesca Martinez. If you missed it catch it on the repeat or iPlayer. If you still vote Tory after hearing it, you deserve to hang your head in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

What a woman! Magnificent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 04:39 AM

It's gone viral, Steve. If anyone wants to see it just do a search for "Francesca Martinez Question Time" and you will find it all over the place. Magnificent indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 06:44 AM

Francesca’s dignity, despite her obvious emotion during her reply, should make our Right-Wing Extremists, Tory apologists, and Brexit-fan-boys here crawl back into their holes in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 06:55 AM

I missed it. Having heard the first question to be an unpleasantly phrased question on Boris, I went back to watching Fantom on Quest. They were renovating an old Citroen 2CV and it ended with a can can moment. When I switched back someone was finally calling the BBC out on its anti Brexit bias. Fiona denied it of course but it's becoming more and more obvious. There was an Andrew Marr show four or five weeks ago where he interviewed five remainers on the trot. In the last five minutes of the program he spoke to someone I'd not heard of who wanted the kind of soft Brexit that isn't really leaving at all. I can't see how that is anything other than deliberate bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 07:31 AM

Strange that Stanron, because from the other side of the fence I perceive a pro-brexit bias not only on the BBC but throughout the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

Absolutely massive pro-brexit Media bias. From 'Left Foot Forward' - A leftist website but the facts are correct.

Over a quarter (27.3 per cent) of the press is owned by Lord Rothermere and 24.9 per cent by Rupert Murdoch – between them these two men have over 50 per cent of the printed press.

Over three quarters (77.8 per cent) of the press is owned by a handful of billionaires. There are only 88 billionaires among the 63 million people in the UK and most of the barons do not even live in the UK.

Not to mention Sky TV.

Do you think those billionaires want their tax affairs inspected by the new EU tax avoidance rules?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 08:15 AM

Wow. Has there been an Andrew Marr show where he interviewed five Brexiteers and only one remainer? If it occurred in the last few weeks I will have missed it because I no longer watch the program.

I admit that there can be a tendency to be over sensitive to opposing views but five interviews with remainers in one program?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 10:04 AM

Does Andrew Marr work for Murdoch, Rothermere or any of the other billionaire press barons? If the BBC are showing any bias, which I would dispute, it is more than suitably offset by the mega-rich cabal providing most of the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 10:58 AM

I am not sure which edition of the Andrew Marr show is being referred to, but he went through all the prospective PMs, either directly or via one of there supporters over a period of several weeks. It may be you regard 5 of these as remainers, but if so, they were all squeezed into a single show, whereas the other candidates will have got a longer slot on another day.

If that is not what you are referring to, please identify exactly which show and which 5 remainers and we can discuss it more meaningfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 11:33 AM

It wasn't Tory leaders. The only one who's name I remember was Vince Cable. Another one might have been Chuka Umunna or Anna Soubry talking about the Change party. Probably someone from the Labour party calling for a second referendum and another talking about stopping a no deal exit. All current news stories but also all strongly anti Brexit. I remember being astonished at there being four or five on the trot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 07:43 PM

From Twitter:

@bbcquestiontime
Jun 13
“Whatever your politics, you can agree that punishing disabled and sick people for falling on hard times is absolutely morally wrong and they have blood on their hands”

@chessmartinez on the government’s austerity policy. #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/3zQUDVLvOa (https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1139288950525349888/video/1)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 09:01 PM

just saying this is what we are about - gerard depardieu, plastic bertrand, nena and her balloons, rod stewart, camembert, et les vins de wherever, jean paul sartre, frankie van der elst, johann cruyff, serge gainsbourg et jane birkin of course and , thierry henry, ian dury, chartres cathedral, daniel auteuil, tintin, spiral, and decency.....and virgil van dyke and pep and jurgen klopp and this is us - and if it isn't why not? shove your racist nasty shite up your old sad arses. farage ? boris johnson? fucksake, get a grip

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 11:09 AM

You can hear the whole of her amazing diatribe on YouTube, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 11:39 AM

I found that Twitter link and saved it here after trying to listen to another link and the message popped up that I couldn't listen from my location. That bit I posted is to the point!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

According to the Independent:

Labour Party members will have the opportunity to force Jeremy Corbyn to commit fully to a fresh Brexit referendum, after the party bowed to pressure to stage a consultation.
The grassroots survey will be launched next month and conclude by early August, The Independent can reveal – paving the way for the policy shift as a new hardline Conservative prime minister arrives in No 10, supporters believe.

We will see if this actually happens - so far only the Independent seems to be claiming it will - and we will see how the results are handled come the conference. Calling for a referendum, for example, does not say what the question on such a referendum would be. Combine this with the rising suspicion that a Johnson PM would be forced into a general election and how the two strands combine will be very significant: will Labour commit to a referendum on any Brexit deal as part of its manifesto, for example?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 04:04 AM

It seems quite likely to me the a Johnson PM would force a no-deal through then immediately call a general election. My expectation is that on the morning after a no-deal the ordinary person will attempt to go about their job exactly as they did before, unless somebody tells them otherwise, and this will carry on until some part or drug or rule from on high stops them. Stockpiling will delay this point (but Christmas is a complication if the October date holds.) So it could be a month or two before no-deal really bites.

So the Tory pitch would be:

a) we have delivered Brexit
b) the claims it will all collapse have proven unfounded
c) we need a majority to deliver everything in the manifesto.

That could be a winning path, as it weakens Farage a lot and the fears of the remainers seem unfounded. But the longer it is delayed, the greater the risks, as no-deal Brexit is more like a house of cards - it can stand successfully for a while, but if it falls, it could do quite dramatically. Wait until the legal limit for an election and that could have happened. Do it early enough after a no-deal and you will get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 04:27 AM

A General Election would seem the only clean way to solve the present impasse. But it is fraught with all sorts of possibilities.
Tory and Labour will have to state a very clear position on Brexit (a herculean task for both)
How real is the support for the Lib Dems?
How much support would the Brexit party lose to a Boris premiership?
How real is the Brexit party threat
How many MPs will be deselected by their own constituency parties?
What confidence, if any, can be placed in polls prior to an election.


Any party manifestos will have to take very clear positions on Brexit.
Flimflam will not work a second time around. Labour will have to come off the fence or be destroyed. The Tories will have to support Brexit or be destroyed.
It will be a 4 horse race with two running as dark horses. Determining the winner will be a challenge, even for the bookies.

However
"A ComRes undertaken for The Daily Telegraph suggests that the current voting intention sees Labour ahead with 27 percent, and the Conservatives four percent behind with 23 percent of the vote.

According to the poll, which was undertaken between June 7 and 9, the Brexit Party would achieve 22 percent of the vote, the Liberal Democrats 17 percent, and the Green Party five percent.

Bringing up the rear would be the SNP with three percent, and Plaid Cymru, Change UK and UKIP all with one percent.

The ComRes poll was of 2,017 British adults and taken between June 7 and 9.
Whereas
he latest poll from YouGov shows the Brexit Party remains in the lead for general election voting intention.

The poll, conducted on behalf of the Times between June 9 and 10, asked 1,702 British adults what their voting intention was in Westminster.
The Brexit Party took the lead with 26 percent of the vote.

confused or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 04:34 AM

Which is why I think the Johnson strategy is to call for a general election after a no deal. Then almost all the points you raise disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 05:44 AM

I think if Boris pulls that off I will have to believe in miracles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 11:24 AM

POLICE are investigating allegations of electoral fraud during the Peterborough by-elections, which saw Labour trump the Brexit Party by a narrow margin.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324
No smoke without fire!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 12:17 PM

I think you meant "innocent until proven guilty."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 02:07 PM

There is nothing in that report either to suggest that any wrongdoing could be attributed to Labour and there is nothing in that report that suggests the extent of issues still being investigated. It looks to me like a matter which, after proper scrutiny, will be quickly forgotten. Some of the allegations already have been. That IS in the report.

Sacco and Vanzetti's judge:

"He was heard to declare "They should get the chair
They're Reds and what more do you need?"

(Cheers to Andy Irvine)

Only real evidence, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 02:07 PM

The past form of BoJo is abysmal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 02:58 PM

From "A man for all seasons":

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 06:19 AM

Brexit: the gift that keeps on giving.

Best of the rest
1.UK growth tipped to slow as firms run down stockpiles
2.Divided, pessimistic, angry: survey reveals bleak mood of pre-Brexit UK
3.UK businesses urged to step up preparations for no-deal Brexit
4.Varadkar: removing Irish backstop would be as bad as no-deal Brexit
5.No deal is “extremely serious” for Northern Ireland, warns Tory MP
6.Brexit “shambles” has ruined UK’s reputation, says senior diplomat
7.Food Standards Agency struggling to prepare for Brexit, say auditors
8.Third of Britons say they avoid news out of Brexit frustration
UK jobs growth slows amid Brexit uncertainty
9. UK job growth slows amid Brexit uncertainty

Scroll to the bottom of this for a link.
Link

Any good news about Brexit?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 06:43 AM

The official Tory policy is leave and to honour the referendum result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 06:56 AM

Sp perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues.

Any coherent, cohesive and consistent Conservative Brexit policy yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:16 AM

But, but, but...Raggy, ‘weer taking are cuntry back’! Dahn’t you no nuffink?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:46 AM

"The official Tory policy is leave and to honour the referendum result."

The official Labour policy is to leave and honour the referendum result.

Some of us in the party disagree with that, as we know that the referendum was a constitutional disgrace informed by campaigns of lies, therefore not worthy of honouring. We also know that the government can't be constitutionally bound by the result as the referendum was advisory only, in spite of Cameron's fatuous promises about it. We also know that the promised trade deals have not materialised and that brexit will certainly transform this country into a basket case. There's a dictator for life who doesn't need us running the most powerful and biggest economy on earth and an unstable lunatic in the White House, and we're about to be confronted by a resentful and uncooperative EU to boot once we leave. Very little else is going matter post-brexit. Well, we can always do a deal with Switzerland to remove tariffs on imported cuckoo clocks and army knives. So some of us want the one and only thing that is remotely in this country's interests, and that is to have the decision reversed. I'm coming round to the opinion that the only way to do that is to have a public vote in light of the new information we have that we didn't have in 2016, much as I'm appalled by the very idea of referendums in the first place. Whatever happens, or doesn't happen, in the next six months will be divisive and cause much trouble. No one route through this mess would be more or less divisive than any other. We can blame Cameron for that, a man of no vision whatsoever. And one of yours, not one of ours.

The politicians in parliament have been blamed for the impasse. But that isn't fair, as they are simply doing their job. You can't hand over a big decision to an ignorant public then blame MPs for failing to agree on what to do next to clear up the resulting bloody mess. The decision should have been in their hands all along. Of course, that would have meant staying in the EU. Which is why you prefer the idea of a rabble-rousing referendum, sidestepping and utterly subverting our parliamentary democracy. The democratic deficit in all this is entirely down to your lot and has nothing to do with remainers wanting a rethink. After all, your referendum was merely a rethink of the 1975 one, the overwhelming result of which YOU have never accepted. Just a little reminder once again that this brexit is one hundred percent a Tory brexit, cooked up by you and yours. Constantly bleating about Labour's brexit policy is, frankly, risible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:47 AM

going to matter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 12:54 PM

The fact that it was the pig sticker frightened of the man toad that caused all this seems to escape our resident right whingers (yes I did spell it right) so they are happy to blame Corbyn who had nowt to do with it. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 01:34 PM

And some of us not in either party disagree with that, and don't accept it. Brexit is a far right coup, foisted on the population by a criminal political class using the profound ignorance of much of the electorate. It has turmed Britain into a failed state, not far above Zimbabwe. In fact, below Zimbabwe now Mugabe has gone. A country of which I used to be proud, and of which I am now profoundly ashamed. I have to keep apologising to my European colleagues for the shambles that Britain has become. And even today, Barclay, bleating to Barnier that its not fair, that the EU position which they have held all along, turns out to be the EU position as they have said. Its come to a pretty pass, hasn't it, when Rory Stewart is the nearest to a sane voice that we have in the contest to be the next PM. And apparantly, being forced to deny, that he is still a remainer! Being forced to deny that he still has working brain cells. Not many, but more that all of the other contenders put together.

At least Raab has gone. As with Mike Pence on the other thread, probably more dangerous than Johnson because he actually believes all of the shit he is spouting.

Now get rid of Hunt. He is Raab plus warmongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 02:45 PM

I posted at 06.56:

"So perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues."

Do you have an answer for us Iains ..............

Typical of your approach, I don't know what Brexit will bring but I will vote for it. Three years later I been told it won't be good but I'll still vote for it. I will also vote for a party leader who hasn't told me what he thinks of Brexit or what route the UK is going to take.

Universal franchise is wasted on some people.

(PS I know the leadership election is not covered by UF)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 03:20 PM

What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU.
None !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 04:00 PM

The EU have described Brexit as a divorce. In most divorces both parties share the assets. The richer half does not fine the poorer. During our membership of the EU we have contributed positively towards the infrastructure. We should be refunded at least some of that contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 04:22 PM

Bloody hell - Nigs has got an apprentice!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:07 PM

"What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU.
None !"

Well Iains, is that your policy or the Conservative Party policy, and if it is Conservative Party Policy when was it decided and by whom with what authority.

Is there any chance of you responding to the rest of my points about the complete lack of a coherent, cohesive and consistent policy by the Conservative Party which you are so keen to maintain that the Labour Party lacks.

I'm going to watch the cricket now on catch-up so you have until tomorrow to consider your reply!

PS At the moment the Conservative Party are in power, they created this debacle, it is their mess and it up to them to sort it out.

PPS If you, for one minute, think that Johnson can do it you really are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:22 PM

The 39 billion is not reparation. It is a sum that we have agreed with the EU we should pay in order to honour our commitments to the project. I'd remind you that a vital element of that project, agreed by all 28 members, is that richer countries should make bigger contributions in order that every EU country can remain solvent and make progress with infrastructure. There are obligations on net recipients to use the money in particular ways in line with EU policy. This has, in spite of many a glitch, helped to maintain a relatively prosperous and peaceful EU, which benefits every one of its members. Whatever kind of brexit we have to endure, one thing's for sure: we will continue to trade with the EU. If we want to build a friendly and cooperative trading environment post-brexit it is incumbent on this country to honour the already-agreed financial settlement. In the long term that will prove to have been a very good investment for future cordial relations, a small price to pay. Bejaysus, we will need all the help we can get. A petulant and shameful refusal to pay the bill is the last thing we should be contemplating.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jun 19 - 04:38 PM

Iains, with regard to my post of yesterday do you have an answer?

"Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?"

"So perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues."

Yes, no, maybe ?????

Do you have an answer for us Iains ..............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 19 - 01:47 PM

Doesn't look as if it going to matter too much what the UK want.

UK heading for no-deal Brexit on 31 October, EU leaders conclude


"There’s very much a strong view across the EU that there shouldn’t be any more extensions," Varadkar said on Thursday. "While I have endless patience, some of my colleagues have lost patience, quite frankly, with the UK and there’s enormous hostility to any further extension.

"So I think an extension could really only happen if it were to facilitate something like a general election in the UK or perhaps even something like a second referendum if they decided to have one," the Irish premier continued. "What won’t be entertained is an extension for further negotiations or further indicative votes. The time for that has long since passed."



No doubt if we hit trouble after leaving it will all be due to the EU being vindictive...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 19 - 07:26 PM

The Donald says "Keep America great". Tom Watson says "Keep Britain subservient". With whom do you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 19 - 08:05 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:22 PM

The 39 billion is not reparation. It is a sum that we have agreed with the EU we should pay in order to honour our commitments to the project. I'd remind you that a vital element of that project, agreed by all 28 members, is that richer countries should make bigger contributions in order that every EU country can remain solvent and make progress with infrastructure. There are obligations on net recipients to use the money in particular ways in line with EU policy. This has, in spite of many a glitch, helped to maintain a relatively prosperous and peaceful EU, which benefits every one of its members.

I seem to remember that Steve Shaw was previously in favour of settling for the 100 billion euro figure that the EU had plucked out of thin air. This reduced figure of £39 billion was a figure accepted in order that discussions could continue with regard to the UK leaving the EU.
It was always a case, in line with EU rules, that the figure would be part of the overall agreement on us leaving the EU. As we have not come to any further agreement, the £39 billion is still available as a negotiating point.


Although the £39bn appears to have been agreed, the EU rules say that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

I'm sorry to have to repeat this, but for some it seems to be overlooked whenever it suits their purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 19 - 09:21 PM

Quote me on that 100 billion claim, please. In full.

The 39 billion is hardly a bargaining chip. It's what we are obliged to pay under the current arrangement we have with the EU. We will pay that sum if we leave. To not pay would result in our biggest and most vital trading partner becoming resentful and uncooperative. As we have yet to achieve any substantial trade deal with anyone else of real significance, I'd suggest that not paying would be suicidal. Won't happen, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 19 - 06:57 AM

I have just thought of a potential positive outcome if we leave. Maybe, just maybe, the Tory party will be wiped out along with BoJo the clown.

We can but hope...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 19 - 12:45 PM

Still no answer to my question of the 19th I see.

Come on Iains, what are you waiting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 19 - 02:44 AM

Interesting quotation here:


The Irish prime minister, Leo Varadkar, said he hoped for an "early meeting" with the new incumbent in Downing Street, who is due to be chosen by the Tory membership in the last week of July. He said: "I am conscious of the fact that notwithstanding their support for Brexit, their strong support of Brexit, both of the two people that are now going forward to the members of the British Conservative party actually voted for the withdrawal agreement and they did so only a few weeks ago, and I think that is something worth bearing in mind."


Whatever Boris Johnson said to the ERG, if we judge people on their actions, it is quite possible he brings back the Withdrawal Agreement once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 19 - 04:51 AM

I'm a bit undecided whether this should be on the Tory Leadership thread or here, but I had to make a choice.

There is a fair bit in the press about Boris possibly losing a no confidence vote if he presses for no deal. The basis for these claims seem to be that some Tory MPs have said they would vote for a no confidence motion.

But that leave Kate Hoey and a few others out of the equation. I am not at all convinced she would vote no-confidence, and the more it is about no deal rather than the tory party, the less likely she is to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 19 - 07:46 AM

The way things are going, it might not be Boris in any case. I think he's about to find out that a month is a long time in politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jun 19 - 12:22 PM

Aaron Banks is suing Carole Cadwalladr for defamation on two grounds; she claimed in a speech two weeks ago that “We know the Russian Government offered money to Arron Banks.” Secondly, in the Ted Talk she said “And I’m not even going to go into the lies that Arron Banks has told about his covert relationship with the Russian Government.”

Banks says he took no money and he has no covert relationship. Now he is going to sue her to prove it or pay up…

Further spiffing news the Brexit party have today announced that they are to legally challenge the result of the Peterborough by-election.    I would suggest they have some convincing data to contemplate such a step.

There are rumours Mr Banks will donate his winnings to the brexit party. She may end up the largest donor to the Brexit Party. How sweet is that!

It seems Ms codwallop must put her money where her mouth is.

Actions do have consequences!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 19 - 01:32 PM

Chickens, hatching, counting.

I am sure Nigel will be along to point you say she claimed the Russians offered money whereas he is claiming he took none. Those are not incompatible, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 03:59 AM

About time a Guardian/Observer hack was taken to task for spreading false news. Interesting that she claims she is being bullied when a victim resorts to the courts to clear his name.
On the Ted Talk she said “And I’m not even going to go into the lies that Arron Banks has told about his covert relationship with the Russian Government.”
I suspect the court will insist she goes into it and reveals all, chapter and verse, in excruciating detail. Otherwise it could cost.

I think she is upset that she is singled out, not the newspaper,or the program. But in both cases she is sole author so no one else to share the blame.
The bar was recently raised for defamation and the number of cases has declined. However Another reason for the decline – on social media in particular – is that a handful of high-profile lawsuits have acted as a deterrent.

Katie Hopkins was ordered to pay £24,000 in damages to Jack Monroe in 2017 after defaming the food blogger on Twitter.

In 2013, Lord McAlpine won a libel claim against Sally Bercow, wife of House of Commons Speaker John, over her tweet following a Newsnight report wrongly implicating the Tory peer in allegations of child sex abuse.

Nicola Cain, co-author of Defamation: Law, Procedure and Practice, which is published by Thomson Reuters, said: “The message is finally starting to get through to users that they need to be extremely careful what they say when posting online.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 07:03 AM

Any answer to my question of the 19th Iains ............. ????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 12:45 PM

So Southern Water has been fined a record £126m for serious breaches of the environmental standards.

What has that to do with Brexit, I hear you ask? Well, the standards are set by the EU. No doubt we could, and probably will, carry them over after Brexit, if only because we don't have time to rethink them. But any time from then on, they could be lowered under pressure from the water companies. After all, "taking back control" means choosing the balance between business interests and customer interests, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 19 - 10:23 AM

Just to leaven the dough a little, the Guardian, referring to Liam Fox, reportedly started a sentence in a report with "Fox, a Hunt supporter..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 19 - 04:22 PM

Latest You Gov survey of voting intent should there be a General Election.

The Conservative Party is tied with the Brexit Party inthe latest YouGov/Times Westminster voting intention survey, on 22% of the vote. Last week’s poll saw the Brexit Party in the lead with 23% and the Conservatives on a par with Labour at 20%.

Labour follows the Conservatives and the Brexit Party on 20%. The Liberal Democrats have dropped 2 percentage points since last week, from 21% last week to 19%.

Elsewhere, the Green party are on 10% (from 9%).

The outcome would be anybody's guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 19 - 04:27 PM

Any answer to my question of the 19th Iains ............. ????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 19 - 05:30 PM

Any answer to my question of the 19th Iains ............. ????

I Assume you mean more project fear by a guardian hack Jon Henley.An EU correspondent based in Paris.(below)

1.UK growth tipped to slow as firms run down stockpiles
2.Divided, pessimistic, angry: survey reveals bleak mood of pre-Brexit UK
3.UK businesses urged to step up preparations for no-deal Brexit
4.Varadkar: removing Irish backstop would be as bad as no-deal Brexit
5.No deal is “extremely serious” for Northern Ireland, warns Tory MP
6.Brexit “shambles” has ruined UK’s reputation, says senior diplomat
7.Food Standards Agency struggling to prepare for Brexit, say auditors
8.Third of Britons say they avoid news out of Brexit frustration
UK jobs growth slows amid Brexit uncertainty
9. UK job growth slows amid Brexit uncertainty

Wild unsubstantiated allegations and opinions.The only point with a grounding in reality is Number 4 but that is applicable to the Irish Republic, not the north, and it is Varadkar saying it. The economy may shrink up to 8% and the State risks a return to dramatic public expenditure cuts and possibly 50000 more unemployed
and the south will have to police the border. Ireland has been played for a sucker by the EU and now reality is sinking in. Varakar has stirred the pot for months and the resultant mess of pottage is now giving his electorate severe indigestion. I doubt he will be re elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 01:41 AM

As some seem incapable of finding it themselves, here is the oft repeated question from Raggytash

So perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 05:14 AM

Nice try Iains but my questions reiterated on the 19th came after you said the Labor party had no policy on Europe.

"So perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues."

As I also asked then "Any coherent, cohesive and consistent Conservative Brexit policy yet"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 05:48 AM

I have stated before:
Reparations will not be paid(Reparation. The compensation for war damage paid by a defeated state.)
I have also stated before I do not believe in scrying, divination or cleromancy. Perhaps I need to use chlorine washed chicken bones to make it work.

Compared to Labour, even you must admit, the official Conservative Brexit policy is a masterpiece of crystal clear lucidity!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 06:00 AM

Raggy, are you aware of Albert Einstein’s spot-on definition of ‘insanity’? Applies perfectly here. He hasn’t a single clue, and hasn't the cojones to confess it, so he constantly resorts to deflection. It’s what R-WEs do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 06:11 AM

"Compared to Labour, even you must admit, the official Conservative Brexit policy is a masterpiece of crystal clear lucidity!"

I might agree if you would tell us just what is the official Conservative Brexit policy, but as yet you have failed to do so.

"What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues."

You state that "Reparations will not be paid" is that official Conservative party policy?

Back to you. Please answer the questions this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 07:07 AM

Nobody is suggesting paying reparations. They are suggesting paying off debts which have been incurred on programmes which the UK signed up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 08:00 AM

I'm feeling in a generous mood so I thought I'd give Iains a little help to answer my questions. So here you go Iains.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/27/brexit-fantasy-boris-johnson-jeremy-hunt

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

Femi Oluwole in the Times today. Grateful thanks to "Our Future, Our Choice" for making it public on Facebook.

You know that kid who lied about doing their homework, then instead of apologising, tells the teacher that they never officially set the homework, and that not doing one’s homework is itself educational and looks great on a CV? That’s the kid who grows up to reassure millions of people they can vote to leave the EU without any financial consequences because we hold all the cards and would get a great deal. That’s the kid who, when the negotiations become an international humiliation, tells those same people they voted to leave the EU without a deal. That’s the kid who tells people he can renegotiate a new deal in a few weeks when the first one took two years and after the other side’s negotiators have shut up shop. That’s the kid who never really grew up.

In a Talkradio interview, Boris Johnson set out his prospective Brexit plans. Two of the three are for a no-deal scenario - which is interesting because, in June 2017, he said, “There is no plan for No Deal, because we’re going to get a great deal.” Here they are.

Plan A:

Pass the “best bits” of the Withdrawal Agreement through parliament, then “suspend” the commitment to pay the £39 billion, and then sort out the Irish border in the transition period after we’ve already left.

Even if Parliament agreed to pass a half-agreement, the EU 27 have already said that without the backstop there is no agreement and that it won’t be re-opened. So Boris Johnson’s Brexit plan amounts to little more than flying to Brussels and shouting at the EU Commission’s locked doors really loudly.

The backstop is there to ensure that there is always a system in place to avoid the need for checks on the Irish border. Without that safety lock, if one side pulled out, it could open the door to Ireland’s dark past. The fact that we’re prepared to remove that safety lock at all will make the EU even less willing to change it.

Plan B:

Use GATT 24 to produce a ‘standstill’, meaning the trading arrangements with the EU stay the same whilst we negotiate a new deal.

The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) is a piece of WTO law which allows an exception to the rule that you must apply the same tariffs to everyone you don’t have a trade deal with. The exception is in the case of “an interim agreement necessary for the formation of a customs union or of a free trade area.” That is exactly what our Withdrawal Agreement is. And, at any rate, such an agreement wouldn’t even be deemed “necessary” by the WTO.

So Boris Johnson is basically saying “We don’t need the agreement we’ve just spent two years negotiating, and which the EU has said won’t be changed. Let’s leave with “no deal” and it’ll be fine because I’ll get us a new one in the next few weeks.” Even if he got these magical standstill arrangements, a lot of the trade benefits of the EU come from having the same regulations, so he’d be signing us up to be bound by EU rules for up to 10 years, but without any representation in Brussels anymore. #TakeBackControl

Plan C: No Deal.

Parliament has already voted strongly against No Deal several times. No Deal was much less popular in Parliament than a new referendum. So Parliament won’t allow it. 54% of voters in 2017 voted for Parties who said they would reject a No-Deal Brexit, so Parliament couldn’t deliver No Deal without defying the people who elected it.

Boris Johnson often says we can leave without a deal and then be in a stronger negotiating position. If we haven’t paid the £39 billion settlement, much of which we legally committed ourselves to as EU members, then that’s the first thing the EU27 will demand. Also, if we leave without a deal, trade with those 27 countries gets more expensive due to tariffs and regulatory differences. For the EU, trade will only get more expensive with one country. If we’re too weak now, what do you think will happen when we’re the only economy in the world with no trade deals with its geographic neighbours? Who’ll be more desperate?

The only way out of this mess is a referendum between a solid deal and EU membership. But Johnson keeps ducking scrutiny (which, by the way, is why OFOC is putting 2000 rubber ducks outside his campaign office on Thursday). To be fair, this mystery man would make an amazingly consistent prime minister: three whole Brexit plans and each one is doomed to be an international failure… Goddamn, that’s impressive.

It would be funny if it wasn't so catastrophic!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:04 PM

But the tiny cabal of immensely-wealthy tax-avoiders, some of whom own/control the rabidly pro-Brexit media, and who are controlling the entire debacle from the shadows, will be very happy indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:25 PM

As things stand we leave at the end of Oct. This is the saint day of St. Wolfgang bishop and Reformer How apposite is that. By that date we will either have a deal or not. The Brussels goblins will have to start proper negotiations.
According to some sources leaving with no deal will lose the EU one million jobs and cost £228billion if Britain rejects deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:35 PM

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:40 PM

I'll tell you another
About his brother...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 04:31 PM

Ooooh Iains, you're still avoiding my question :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM

No point in answering your question. My responses seem to be automatically deleted. I guess the truth hurts.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/26/voting-intention-brex-22-con-22-lab-20-lib-dem-19-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:19 AM

As one who thinks we should have remained, and as a poor second to keep as closely aligned the the EU as possible, I don't think it is up to me to point out some possible benefits of Brexit. But since no-one else is, here are a couple that could come about. I am not saying they will, but they could.

(a) All pro-Brexiteers talk about getting trade deals far and wide, and all remainers talk about the importance to EU trade. In terms of environmental considerations, there is something to be said for having less international trade - less aviation pollution, for example.and less waste- the fast fashion may be hard hit, but wearing a tee shirt more often is not inherently a bad thing. Of course, even a 40% rise in costs moves a £10 item to £14, so it is quite possible this just continues. For some time I have been thinking about protectionism as a mechanism for protecting the environment rather than primarily jobs, and it could have a role to play, I feel.

(b) IA while ago I was talking to a local cheese maker who is very small scale - perhapa a hundred chees sales a month.They cheeses are Camembert-Brie style, and mainly sold to the middle classes because of the high cost, relative to supermarket equivalents. He was very happy with the idea that French cheese was more expensive due to tariffs as it opened opportunities for him. He was considering expanding if the market looked right.

(c). In a similar vein, while UK companies that trade internationally may be hard hit, those who trade solely in the UK could do well because of high tariff and waste-avoidance pressures. Of course, should the tariffs be low, or zero, the opposite applies.

Naturally, these local companies rely on having customers with money, so if there are high tariffs there could be a gradual loss if the people employed by international companies lose jobs and then because of their having less to spend the local traders lose customers .. a trickle down effect which may actually happen. Numerically are vastly more such local traders than international companies, though of course they tend to empty very few if any staff, whereas the international companies often employ thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:23 AM

... tend to employ ....

That post was inspired by the thread 'Understanding you political opponents', which unfortunately seems to be everyone defending their own PoV. I thought it was raising some points my opponents might raise that are not simply straw men.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 03:57 AM

(b) and (c) are definitely not advantages for the consumer. Higher prices for continental produce, and higher prices for UK produce because producers see "opportunities". Inflationary pressures, and a hit on the hard pressed UK consumer. Lots of people talk about trade solely in terms of benefits to the producer, as if a consumer is just a resource there to be milked.

As for me, I will continue to buy French cheese and German and Italian meat products, even if the prices are higher. I will fund this by buying less British stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:00 AM

Complete and utter cop out Iains, you do not have the answer, you have never been able to answer any of the points put to you re Brexit, ever. Now you are trying to pass the blame onto the Moderators.

The act of a scoundrel. Shameless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:25 AM

I agree that we often tend to leave consumers out of the calculation, Dave C. And I am hardly pro-Brexit. But if you consider the situation that a high tariff is in place, so we have that negative impact on the consumer already, then my cheese maker is making things cheaper for the consumer, compared to the alternative.

What I wanted to bring out, though, is that many remainers talk as the only beneficiaries are those trading with off shore accounts. It is possible for very much smaller businesses to benefit.


Anyway, that is enough from me about advantages to Brexit. I will return to the positions I regard as tenable: remain or very close alignment with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:32 AM

”Lots of people talk about trade solely in terms of benefits to the producer, as if a consumer is just a resource there to be milked.”

Bingo! The principle of ‘The Upward Flow of Wealth’ - the opposite of the myth of ‘The Trickle-Down Effect’ - on which Conservatism is based.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:52 AM

That should have been “one of the founding principles on which Conservatism is based”.

AKA the ‘Robin Hood in Reverse’ principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:30 AM

Trump is one who fails to understand the point of trade, talking about "trade deficits". There is no such thing as a trade deficit, trade is always a two way process. And if money flows one way, lots of nice shiny goods flow the other. Western consumers benefit greatly from trade with China, painted as a deficit by Trump and other western politicians. We get lots of nice shiny products, and all we have to give them is money, which we have, and if we don't we can create.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:54 AM

In trade the 'deficit' is the difference between how much you buy and how much you sell. You do not make a profit when you buy. You might buy with a profit potential but you can only make a profit when you sell.

The EU sells more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU. If trade fails between us, not that anyone wants that to happen, but if it fails the EU will lose more profit than the UK. You might try some sleight of hand with proportional statistics to make it look less but you would only be fooling yourself.

Also there are at least two types of buying. If you buy to consume there is no profit and no profit potential. If you buy to manufacture, develop or invest you have a potential profit, but that might be seen as a lesser potential profit than if you keep your money in your pocket and wait for a better chance.

Between countries there is always a possibility of trade deficit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:55 AM

It's not just profit and loss in business though, Stanron. The balance sheet showing your assets and liabilities is just as important. If you buy something it may be a consumable or it may be capital expenditure, in which case your assets increase. Trading "deficits" are also affected by this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:57 AM

David C is right. No one trades to lose money, they trade to get the shiny new things. Any form of trade analysis that leaves the shiny things out of the comparison is at best misleading, or potentially worse than useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 10:31 AM

"The EU sells more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU."


Which goes to show that the UK relies far more on the EU for the goods it needs, than the EU relies on the UK. That stuff they sell includes a large fraction of our food.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 11:44 AM

“Awkward things, facts!”, as our RR-WE is so fond of telling us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 12:10 PM

We buy food from the EU because, in part, The EU puts tariffs on non EU food. IF we were no longer bound by EU rules, non EU food would be cheaper. The price of French, Italian, German and Spanish food is kept artificially high because they can't compete on a worldwide stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 12:17 PM

We buy food from the EU because of its quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 01:10 PM

At the moment, the UK imports about 30% of its food from the EU and another 10% from the rest of the world. How that equation may change after Brexit will be anybodies guess. The EU will still want the trade but will we?
The single market shows amazing disparities from country to country when it comes to food prices, Ireland is the fourth most expensive country in the EU for Food, costing 20% more than the EU average.
The UK by contrast ranks about 18th, similar to Slovakia, Croatia and Estonia.(I find this ranking surprising but the source is Eurostat)
I also find it surprising the prices in Ireland are so high. With the CAP it would be expected prices would even out over time. This is obviously not the case.
Of the 10.3 million farms in the EU, two thirds are less than 5ha in size, by contrast in the UK av farm size is 57ha. Agricultural land in the UK ranks 4th in the EU by area.
Bigger and more efficient farms produce more food per Ha. I suspect food provision after brexit is a non issue. The EU and CAP both need serious reform. In the UK we need to decide if farmers are to remain farmers or morph into grant aided landscape custodians(like many Irish sheep farmers)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 01:43 PM

From the BBC website:

Mr McCluskey dismissed reports about Mr Corbyn's health as "fake news".
Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show, he said some people were in a "rush" to change Labour's position of "respecting the 2016 referendum and trying to negotiate a deal which would unite the nation".
He blamed "huge mistakes" by Prime Minister Theresa May, a government "incapable" of delivering Brexit and a "well-funded Remain lobby" for turning the Brexit debate "toxic".

I don't know about anyone else on here, but no 'well funded Remain lobby' is paying me anything. Nor are my views set by a propaganda campaign, as I was making the same points before, during and after the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:06 PM

McCluskey has been in hock to the far right for years. Just because you are a trade union leader, doesn't mean you are in any sense a progressive. Look at Jimmy Hoffa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:11 PM

We buy food from the EU because of its quality.

Food Apatheid in the EU brought to you by the mouthpiece of the left so it's veracity is unassailable. I wonder what side of the divide the UK lies?

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/sep/15/europes-food-apartheid-are-brands-in-the-east-lower-quality-than-in-the-west

This is the same regime that allowed horse meat into the foodchain masquerading as prime beef. (2013 Roumanian horses ended up   as prime beef over parts of Europe. The meat in itself is not harmful other than fraudulent, the concern is phenylbutazone entering the food chain.)
Chickens also pose a risk. Cases of Salmonella Enteritidis acquired in the EU have increased in humans by 3% ... Levels of Campylobacter are high in chicken meat.
US farms are allowed to dip or wash chicken carcasses in water containing chlorine dioxide in order to kill potentially harmful organisms such as E coli, campylobacter and Salmonella on the surface of the meat.
The false argument against chlorine washing is that chlorine is part a processing method that makes up for poorer welfare standards on poultry farms that have sacrificed hygiene for increased production. And so chicken is washed with chlorine to kill off harmful microorganisms that may be present on carcasses.
Animal welfare and food hygiene are two totally separate issues. Conflating the two to play one regulatory regime against another is mendacious

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:05 PM

Exercise left to the reader: There is a proposal from the US ambassador that we should have EU/UK chicken and US chicken both available to the end customer to let them choose which they wish.

Show how this implies either a hard border between NI and the Republic, or one at ports, otherwise known as 'a border in the Irish sea'.

Also explain how the US negotiating objectives on labelling are compatible with this idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:46 PM

"Bigger and more efficient farms produce more food per Ha."

Well now, let's see. My view on this was formed decades ago after I'd read an amazing little book by that self-sufficiency guru John Seymour. The title was Bring Me My Bow. John, Gawd bless 'im, was a devoted right-winger who didn't believe in old age pensions or other state benefits. But he told the truth about our food production. To update him, at least half of the barley and wheat production in this country, most of it produced on huge farms that receive astronomical EU subsidies, is unfit for human consumption and is used for animal feed. Poor animals. That production is possible only by dint of massive chemical input. Not only by artificial fertiliser, much of it won via the Haber process, one of the most polluting systems on earth, but also by the use of lethal neonicotinoid insecticides. On the other hand, "smaller and less efficient" farms, often organic, produce excellent quality food though in slightly less amounts than the chemical systems. But it's all useful as human food and it is not produced via highly-polluting inputs. I know which I prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 02:37 AM

That link Iains, is to an article with a question mark at the end (which doesn't of course appear in the link). And it is mainly about US multinationals applying different standards to their products in Eastern and Western Europe. It is not about locally produced food. And the horsemeat issue (not right to call it a scandal, horsemeat is as you say not harmful, and in certain countries is the most expensive item on the menu) was an issue of non-compliance by UK and Irish and Romanian producers which was detected by the EU testing regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 02:39 AM

And US food poisoning deaths are up to 10 times higher than those in the UK:

https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_US_foodpoisoning/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM

Of course our resident right singers have not mentioned the cost to the planet. It may cost less to buy some things from outside the EU but how much damage does it do to the environment to get them here?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM

It is mainly about US multinationals applying different standards to their products in Eastern and Western Europe

Moreover, both interpretations are in accordance with the EU regulations, so the debate being raised is whether the EU regulations need to be stricter to reduce this variation. And we all know how supportive the Leavers are of more regulation from the EU. A strong hint of racism, I think, to object to the variation and object to the means to reduce the variation.

But, to stress, both interpretations are to the current EU standards, which are in many cases higher than from outside the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:54 AM

SORRY, SORRY, SORRY.

I typed cakism. Not racism!

As auto text fixes go, that is a real humdinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 04:25 AM

Sssssshhh....I think you got away with it, DMcG. Someone kindly fixed before Nigs got his arse into gear... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM

Seymour may have been a self styled self sufficiency guru, but farmer he was not. He made his money from writing. Real farmers make their money from farming. This dictates they use techniques to maximise growth and hence returns.
   If they did not you would likely starve.


Barley is the second largest arable crop in the UK (after wheat). It remains an important cereal because of its ability to survive in cold and wet conditions, so although it is grown throughout most of the UK, in the north, where growing conditions are most difficult for wheat, it is often the dominant arable crop.

Of the 6.5 million tonnes produced in the UK each year approximately 2 million tonnes are malted by the brewing and distilling trades. About 1.5 million tonnes are exported for the same purpose, often to countries like China that have developed the western taste for beer. The remaining 3 tonnes, i.e. almost half of what we grow, is used for animal feed
The UK is one of few countries in the world that has grown its barley area in the past few decades, with the global barley area declining by 23% in the past 20 years.

More than 93% of malting barley globally is used for beer production, but half the UK crop is used for distilling, feeding the expanding Scottish whisky sector, which is expected to use 1m tonnes of malting barley annually by 2020.

The other half supplies domestic brewers such as Carling brewer Molson Coors, but also underpins exports to maltsters in Europe, who rely on British growers in the south of England to iron out supply deficits from growers on the Continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:23 AM

No quotation marks there Iains or reference to your source. Very poor could do better 4/10.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:02 AM

I am sure if you disputed the facts you would use google. Why should I link, others have no need to?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:07 AM

Er, John Seymour was involved in agriculture for most of his life, actually, including long spells spent as a sheep farm manager in Africa, a smallholder-farmer in the UK, then later owning and working a farm in Wales and then in Ireland. Like lots of farmers do these days, he found ways of supplementing his income, largely in his case by writing. But before that he showed that it was possible to be self-sufficient on a five-acre parcel of land via good husbandry and diversity and by farming organically before it became fashionable. Others do B&B and holiday cottages, or stable horses, or make cheese, or open up farm shops or cafes. To suggest that he was not a farmer is utterly laughable. However, glad to see that you confirmed in your mind that around half of our barley production is fit only for animal feed. When you marvel at the fields of waving barley this month, reflect on the outrage underlying many of them that's hidden from view. And that the farmer who owns the fields, who probably voted leave like most farmers, receives massive EU subsidies. Crazy world, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM

It is considered normal, at least amongst intelligent people, to place quotation marks around a quote and provide a source.

I presume you had an education, despite the limited evidence, and had you not used quotation marks and provided a source your work would be marked down. You may even be accused of plagiarism.

So no change there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM

And that the farmer who owns the fields, who probably voted leave like most farmers, receives massive EU subsidies. Crazy world, innit.

And who Hunt is now promising to insulate from their decision by making everyone donate a good part of £6billion to them. Ditto for fishermen.

Crazy world indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM

John Seymour (12 June 1914 – 14 September 2004) was a prolific early author in the self-sufficiency movement. He had multiple roles as a writer, broadcaster, environmentalist, agrarian, smallholder and activist; a rebel against: consumerism, industrialisation, genetically modified organisms, cities, motor cars; an advocate for: self-reliance, personal responsibility, self-sufficiency, conviviality (food, drink, dancing and singing), gardening, caring for the Earth and for the soil.
I can think of instances in his books where he would be liable for prosecution for the illegal burial of waste and possible contamination of water courses, although he masqueraded as an ecoloon. Having Q A'd
landfill sites all over the UK from initial construction phase to capping and subsequent gas gathering installations I take a keen professional interest in waste disposal.
Ragwort your time would be better spent instructing your little mate in the construction of links. It would help us separate fact from whimsy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM

Yet another example of "oh look over there" Iains, frankly a disgrace.

I am not anyone's keeper, if you have a problem with someone's post please address that person.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM

My time is far far too valuable to waste making futile attempts to cure other's peccadilloes.
Meanwhile:Jeremy Hunt has just given a speech on ‘No Deal’ preparations at Policy Exchange, setting out his ten point plan to leave. It is well known that Hunt campaigned for remaining in the EU in 2016, Hunt now says he accepts the outcome of the referendum and Brexit must be done. Today he is going further and says he wants to ramp up planning for no deal, yet even over the course of the last few months, he has repeatedly hit out at ‘No Deal’
Politician speak with forked tongue? Surely that cannot be so! Anything to get elected. Although I would say if Hunt is elected massive defections will occur to the Brexit party. With Boris this is less likely. Either way my runes suggest a General Electon is in the offing. On current polling the outcome of that is far from certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM

Brexit Party {{puke}} turned their backs on the playing of the EU Anthem - Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’ - at the opening ceremony of the EU Parliament this morning.

Shameful, ignorant, disrespectful scrotes.

I won’t wait for howls of protest from the mob who bayed for Corbyn’s blood when he didn’t sing during the U.K. Anthem, even though he demonstrated respect by standing when it was played.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM

I never sing during the national anthem. I never sing during anything. Anyone who ever heard me singing would know why.

But I would not turn my back on the national anthem, even of a country whose policies I profoundly disagreed with.

So "shameful, ignorant, disrespectful scrotes" is about the least you could say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM

And childish into the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM

Brexit Party - a futile gesture?

...and childish and embarrassing. Are there really people around who see the EU as our enemy? you can negotiate a deal beneficial to both parties if you remain on good terms. Or just remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM

There are people around still fighting WWII in their own minds. Even though they were born years after it ended. And they seem to have forgotten that most of the French and the Polish were on our side. Its lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

This is a blog I read quite often, because I share a profession with the blogger, or did before I retired. Quite stunning similarity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

i've just watched a film of a brexiteer MEP haranguing the parliament - comparing them to slave owners and such. also claiming to speak for britain. this brexit is far worse than futile = its ridiculous, deeply damaging and very embarrassing. they have no shame and no understanding that the fundamentalist no deal they crave would only represent at most a quarter of the views of our more aged and more closed-minded little englanders. sadly - this seems to include both the PM contenders. who will save us all from these eejits?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM

The High Court has issued its final judgment on Boris and the bus and it makes many telling arguments against the laddie that tried to prosecute Boris. It starts by stating the magistrate should have quashed the attempt. The wheels were off this particular bus before the journey even started.
The full text brought to you via that excellent purveyor of accurate reporting MR Guido Fawkes:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2019ewhc-1709-admin-johnson-v-westminster-mags-final.pdf
The judgement totally destroys the arguments on here submitted by the lefties and Boris has his reputation as a fine fellow restored, all buffed up and shiny again. A spiffing summary from the judiciary.
Will Halloween bring us Samhein and the attendance of the ghosts ofBrexit past or Brexit future? Will it be the beginning of a winter of discontent for valiant brexiteers or remainiacs?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:54 PM

What a sad case gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

A sad Billy-No-Mates, Raggy, his only means of getting hard-on by trolling an Internet forum. Just picture him sitting in his lonely room, tugging his todger in front of his computer screen....

Second thoughts, don't.......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:50 PM

I am not convinced all posters here have read that judicial finding carefully. At no point did it consider whether the claim on the bus was false. In fact, it goes to some lengths to point out that there are many false claims during campaigns. The question that they considered was whether Boris was acting in his capacity as mayor in making the claims, or not. Having decided not, the case falls because he was not 'acting as such' and therefore was outside the legal restrictions of the post. Nothing to do with whether Boris is a hero or villain, a good egg or a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:55 PM

Quite right, DMcG. The judgement is complex, measured and considered, and the poster who referred to it, and to Staines' blog, has misrepresented it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:13 PM

What a surprise! NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:35 PM

The figure on the bus is actually correct. As pointed out below it is the gross figure quoted because the rebate is an uncertain variable with no guarantees.

June 22 2016 Boris defending his figures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=Vp2jUbNtNVA

UK Gross contribution to EU
2011       2012      2013      2014      2015      2016      2017
15,357    15,746    18,135    18,778    19,560    16,996    18,625
Weekly                                  376       326       358
Source HM Treasury

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:34 AM

"The EU budget at a glance" U.K. 2017.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:35 AM

So there will be an extra £350,000,000 for the NHS! It must be true because Boris said so. And some people still seem to believe him. There's one born every minute ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:37 AM

Not only does it not include the rebate, it doesn't include the money given to UK participants in valuable EU programmes such as Horizon2020 which no UK government would ever fund (it being a bit too complex for them), And quite frankly, I would rather my tax money went to Eastern Europeans trying to build their society up, than to ignorant people in sink areas of the UK trying to tear theirs down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:59 AM

Someone is really not getting the concept that lying is about the intention to decieve.

The figure on the bus is intended to create a misleading impression of the amount of additional money that will be available to the UK. Quoting gross rather than net is precisely the issue.

We all have our opinions on the figure on the bus. Nothing is to be gained by debating it further.

On the other hand an understanding of the readiness of Boris Johnson to mislead is relevant, but rather more in the 'Leadership'thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM

The figures on the bus were gross, as Boris pointed out numerous times.
Check the link provided previously and below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWhwzCuHfAo&feature=youtu.be&t=283
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7AZJfodiVU&feature=youtu.be&t=80
and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY3RznQSBfw

There was no lie, no deception, as clearly seen with the proof from the horses mouth.
The prosecution was politically motivated, vexatious and without substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:49 AM

We were taught at our Catholic grammar school that there were different kinds of lying, and that an important one was lying by omission, which has the intent to deceive. What was daubed on the bus is a classic example of that. It doesn't matter how many times he might have separately said that the figure was gross, if he did. The bus was the tabloid headline-catcher, as it was intended to be, and the word "gross" was nowhere to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:54 AM

It wasn't even right as a gross figure. The rebate never leaves the country, it is an amount which reduces the gross figure. Whether I agree with the rebate is another matter,I would rather that more of mytax money went to help the poorer regions of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:12 PM

Tommy Robinson, star of stage, screen and Brexit, has been jailed for contempt of court
"Orwellian" - eh what !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM

Play ‘Find The Soap’ time for Yaxley-Lennon then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

It doesn't matter how many times he might have separately said that the figure was gross, if he did.
I provided three video links above where the gross figure is both stated, and explained, with the uttermost clarity.

Sorry! It cannot be denied.

I wonder why Tommy Robinson is introduced into the thread? He has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit more to do with grooming from a certain ethnic group. Is it because you finally realise that fighting Brexit is a futile gesture? Is young Tommy introduced as a poor distraction subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:34 PM

"He has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit"
He, Farage and Kate Hooey address Brexit crowds outside of Parliament - scumbags like him are the products of Brexit, thriving on the prejudice and populism that gave Britain this mess
FAKE NEWS MAYBE!!!

Understandable to disown him, totally incomprehensible to lie about the obvious
Scum like Robinson ARE WHAT BREXIT IS REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:12 PM

The reality is that the largest political party in the EU is the Brexit party, formed in large part as a result of Tommy Robinson being allowed to join ukip and thereby destroying the remaining credibility of ukip.
But do not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

As to the reason for leaving here is a series of reasons from Rumour Mill News no less.


Anne Widdicombe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM

Mad as a box of frogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:32 PM

Mad as a box of frogs. Yes, that certainly describes the EU. That is why the sensible majority voted to leave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM

Strange - it was you and the Widdecombe harridan I was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 08:41 PM

"Tommy Robinson being allowed to join ukip and thereby destroying the remaining credibility of ukip."
Which is why you pushed his petition around and described his arrest as "Orwellian"
Your value here is that you represent the extremist right who lurked in the shadows and refuses to support the causes you represent
Methinks neo speaks with forked tongue - your history displays what you stand for - have the bottle to stand by it

"Ann Wiiecome - failed thatcherite who dyd here hair
Who gives a toss what a supporter of Pinochet's friend thinks !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 08:41 PM

"Tommy Robinson being allowed to join ukip and thereby destroying the remaining credibility of ukip."
Which is why you pushed his petition around and described his arrest as "Orwellian"
Your value here is that you represent the extremist right who lurked in the shadows and refuses to support the causes you represent
Methinks neo speaks with forked tongue - your history displays what you stand for - have the bottle to stand by it

"Ann Wiiecome - failed thatcherite who dyd here hair
Who gives a toss what a supporter of Pinochet's friend thinks !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:40 AM

From The Press Gazette:

An Open Democracy journalist has won the right to see tax-funded research produced by Jacob Rees-Mogg's European Research Group after an 18-month Freedom of Information battle.
Jenna Corderoy appeared in front of the First-Tier Tribunal in May to argue there was public interest in seeing the documents because of the Conservative ERG's "significant influence" and role in shaping Government Brexit policy.
The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is now due to publish the ERG documents by 11 July.

This could be very informative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:19 AM

"Tommy Robinson being allowed to join ukip and thereby destroying the remaining credibility of ukip."
Which is why you pushed his petition around and described his arrest as "Orwellian"
Your value here is that you represent the extremist right who lurked in the shadows and refuses to support the causes you represent
Methinks neo speaks with forked tongue - your history displays what you stand for - have the bottle to stand by it

The usual pack of lies off little jimmie. Go look for a fight elsewhere and behave yourself on this forum. We do not need it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:22 PM

A comment by Steve over on the Leaderahip reminded me that the Brexit Party announced it was going to launch a legal challenge to the Peterborough result. According to the Fiancial Times "The Brexit party’s challenge must be submitted to the High Court within 21 days of the election being held, by June 27."

Was it submitted by the date?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:03 PM

Hopefully Yaxley-Lennon will serve his time in a prison with a large Muslim population. And don't deny it Iains, you were posting links to a petition to free him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:24 PM

...and whinging about the court case being political.

Isn't it lovely to see the crows coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:59 AM

"The usual pack of lies off little jimmie. Go look for a fight elsewhere and behave yourself on this forum. We do not need it!"
You most certainly do not need it but, as you speak for no-ne and most people tend to ignore you, it doesn't matter too much

You have had your defence of Robinson put up and you continue to deny it
Robinson is a racist criminal that has been banged up for his criminal activities - what he stands for goes though Brexit like "Blackpool" goes though rock
That cannot be said enough - it is destroying the UK and stands to spread like a malignant disease

"little jimmie"
I've had moderators use belittling terms like that - they make themselves as small as you are, and the long-gone individual you stole it from
Still not impressed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 05:17 AM

little jimmie still troublemaking! If mods hint you have a problem, perhaps you should listen. Mods suggests more than one and there are not that many.
I keep saying that my support of Tommy Robinson extends only to his receiving the same equal treatment under the law as anyone else. I must have corrected your lies at least half a dozen times on here. Still you deliberately misrepresent what I say. Are you stupid, or merely picking a fight as usual? You are a disgrace and this forum is a far happier place without you.

I see the left revealing their true colours by wishing that TR be incarcerated in a prison with a large Moslem component. Obviously too much of a wimp to state the obvious that it would likely result in Tommy Robinson being attacked or even murdered. To make such a statement is utterly disgusting. Do all you lefties think the same way?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 05:46 AM

There is one person on here who causes more trouble and has more posts deleted than everyone else put together. And it isn't Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 05:54 AM

"ittle jimmie still troublemaking! "
The feller who said I was a "troublemaker" also got around to calling me "Little Jimmie" (and the rest of us "kiddies")- you seem to run in packs
You openly supported a racist criminal - you really need to 'stand by your man' before the cock crows thrice if that's what you believe
So Muslims are likely to be murderers
Gets better and better, this Brexit thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:24 AM

The facts are:
1)Tommy Robinson was arrested tried and convicted in 5 hours.(A record for efficiency or premeditation?)
2)He was first jailed in Hull (Moslem percentage 7% of inmates)
3)He was then moved to a prison with a Moslem population of30%(why would the authorities do that I wonder?)
4)On appeal the conviction was quashed.

In May 2018, Robinson was sentenced to 13 months of jail for contempt after live-streaming outside a criminal trial, in violation of reporting restrictions. However, the court of appeal quashed the contempt finding, freeing Robinson after only two months of his sentence. The case was then referred to the attorney general, who stated that it was in the public interest to bring fresh proceedings. Robinson claims that the action against him is politically motivated.

These events raise several questions that should make a rational person think.
1)Is TR gaining too big an audience?
2)Did the authorities act with unseemly haste?
3)Did his move to a jail with a large Moslem population occur through happenstance or was it deliberately engineered? and if so, what was the intent?
4)Is he being pursued because he is a "Far right activist or drawing attention to Moslem grooming gangs? The latter being something the Authorities cannot deny, yet cover up and obfuscate whenever possible.

IF a political motive is not behind the two prosecutions of Tommy Robinson pulling my other leg will reveal it is masquerading as a morris dancer.
The issues raised go far beyond mr robinson. In some ways the issues resemble those surrounding Mr Assange insofar as all is not what it would seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:53 AM

Any good news on Brexit - the Topic of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:03 AM

So British Justice is bent i favour of left wing politics and anti-racism?
Tell that to the families of Blair Peach, Stephen Lawrence, and every other victim of their institutional racism (self description)
At least this has dragged you kicking and screaming out of your "I'm no Tommy Robinson fan"
You made a great issue of obeying the law when it was suggested that survivors of the Grenfell fire be housed temporarily in empty private property - you accused Corbyn of having contempt for the law when he made the suggestion
Now, it appears, you hold the laws you advocate for in contempt if they don't suit your particular brand of politics, while at the same time, suggesting it is unsafe to imprison hard working and upstanding fascists in with Muslims because they might murder him (with the aid of the prison services, presumably)
You really are a child of the New Britain Brexit, aren't you
Thank you for the picture of what a 'Britain standing on its own feet' has in store for us - and keep it coming
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:06 AM

Oddly enough, according to an interview Tommy Robinson gave to the Telegraph and then incorporates into a Wiki article, the prison with the larger Muslim population was the one he favoured....

====

binson was attacked by several fellow prisoners in HM Prison Woodhill.[167][168]Following news of the attack, Maajid Nawazwrote to the Secretary of State for Justice, Chris Grayling, asking for Robinson's situation to be urgently addressed.[168][169] Shortly after this incident, Robinson was moved to HM Prison Winchester. Robinson told Jamie Bartlett, a director of the think tank Demos: "In Woodhill, I experienced Islam the gang. [...] In Winchester, I have experienced Islam the religion." Robinson made friends with several Muslim prisoners, referring to them as "great lads [...] I cannot speak highly enough of the Muslim inmates I'm now living with".[170]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:59 AM

"great lads"
STRANGE "FRIEND"
Methinks white man speak with forked tongue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:22 AM

Great introduction The Andrew Marr show today:no one, pundit or politician, knows anything and no one can predict where we are heading.

Seems about right.

I could see an election being called in October to be completed on say 7th November. It would effectively prorogue Parliament over the critical period without any special dodgy dealing. Boris could spend the last week or two saying he and the Tories have fulfilled their commitment, shooting the Brexit Party's fox (to a large extent) and also the Lib Dems (what else is their upswing about?) Once the fait is accompli, neither parties' USP survives. The house could not stop an election being called, I think - it would be really difficult for Labour to oppose it, for instance. Boris would only have to hope that the worst disadvantages of Brexit take a few weeks to appear, and stockpiling etc should cope with that.

Then, if they should lose to Labour, the story next time would be "we delivered the no deal and any problems are due to Labour".


About the only thing I can see that would mess that up that would be if the EU pointed out it has always considered an election a reason for an extension, so even though it was not asked for, they give an unconditional extension to, say, 1 week after the voting completes. And I am not at all sure where that would stand in international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:53 AM

At least this has dragged you kicking and screaming out of your "I'm no Tommy Robinson fan"
You made a great issue of obeying the law when it was suggested that survivors of the Grenfell fire be housed temporarily in empty private property - you accused Corbyn of having contempt for the law when he made the suggestion
Now, it appears, you hold the laws you advocate for in contempt if they don't suit your particular brand of politics, while at the same time, suggesting it is unsafe to imprison hard working and upstanding fascists in with Muslims because they might murder him (with the aid of the prison services, presumably)
Bend it twist it shake it. Keep demonstrating your abject stupidity jimmie.
You tell me why the authorities moved robinson to a prison with a large Moslem population? It was hardly to proselytize them now, was it?.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:20 AM

"Bend it twist it shake it. Keep demonstrating your abject stupidity jimmie."
I will while it continues to get up your nose Iains
Keep vomiting your Islamophobia to your heart's content and explain where the fact that no compunction whatever is shown when locking up criminals from ethnic backgrounds alongside toe of the most violent racist thugs Britain has ever produced - known racist skinheads, violent extremist right wingers..... all one big happy family to the prison authorities
THe same used to be true when imprisoning homosexuals before gay prode enlightenment
You really aren't the brightest button on the uniform, are you ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 01:05 PM

I do not have to drag in lies from other threads to construct an argument. I only post facts. You are nothing but a troublemaker and vexatious bogdweller. You post lies merely to provoke fights. Time for you to take another little vacation. This thread is about Brexit, not about you demonstrating your inability to listen to anyone.Bysie by!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 01:11 PM

Jim, the last post is a perfect example of why you should just ignore it. I think mass deletions are in the offing so just make the mods lives easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:34 PM

Come on, mods. You did it with Teribus and you did it with akenaton. This bloke is worse. Make the place sweeter and get rid of him. Surely you've seen enough. And Jim, no responding this time, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM

"And Jim, no responding this time, right?"
Right
No need to
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:32 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:22 AM Great introduction The Andrew Marr show today:no one, pundit or politician, knows anything and no one can predict where we are heading.
Seems about right.
I could see an election being called in October to be completed on say 7th November. It would effectively prorogue Parliament over the critical period without any special dodgy dealing. Boris could spend the last week or two saying he and the Tories have fulfilled their commitment, shooting the Brexit Party's fox (to a large extent) and also the Lib Dems (what else is their upswing about?) Once the fait is accompli, neither parties' USP survives. The house could not stop an election being called, I think - it would be really difficult for Labour to oppose it, for instance. Boris would only have to hope that the worst disadvantages of Brexit take a few weeks to appear, and stockpiling etc should cope with that.
Then, if they should lose to Labour, the story next time would be "we delivered the no deal and any problems are due to Labour".
About the only thing I can see that would mess that up that would be if the EU pointed out it has always considered an election a reason for an extension, so even though it was not asked for, they give an unconditional extension to, say, 1 week after the voting completes. And I am not at all sure where that would stand in international law.


This appears to ignore the fact that, if there is no further consultaion, and agreement, with the EU, we are leaving on Oct 31st. So in the above scenario, the UK will leave the EU on 31st October.
Yipee!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:03 PM

You wish, Nige, you wish...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:02 AM

”This appears to ignore the fact that, if there is no further consultaion, and agreement, with the EU, we are leaving on Oct 31st. So in the above scenario, the UK will leave the EU on 31st October.
Yipee!”

Your final expression of joy seems to indicate that you see benefits that we will all feel from leaving. You and your BrexShit Brigade here have been asked repeatedly to enlighten those of us who foresee no benefits whatsoever, what those benefits will be and, thus far, you have all failed completely.

So tell us. No wishy-washy nonsense such as ‘Take are cuntry back’, or ‘sovereignty’, or ‘unelected bureaucrats’ - those are just bags of wind, airships which have been shot down in flames over and over again - give us some of the real, tangible benefits that we will all feel, Leavers and Remainers alike, when we’ve left. God knows, amidst the utter debacle that the Nasty Party have made of what we were told three years ago would be ‘the easiest deal ever’, we’re in desperate need of some good news.

Educate us, do...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:10 AM

No, Nigel, it did not ignore that we are leaving on 31st October, according to the current rules. In fact, the possible strategy I outlined has preventing Parliament acting to stop it happening as its rationale. That is precisely why Boris would want the election called before October 31 but not concluding until afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:29 AM

Britain outside the EU would be an impoverished country, with less influence and less respect on the world stage. Its people would be at each other's throats. More unemployment, higher food prices. And not one single benefit. I fail to see how abstract and meaningless constructs like sovereignty (who's exactly?) could possibly compensate for that. Any leader who took us in that direction would be grossly irresponsible, and if fact a traitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:39 AM

Well I agree, David. But clearly, Nigs's exclamation of 'Yippee!' at the prospect of us leaving the EU with or without a deal on 31/10/19, indicates that he sees real, tangible benefits when we leave. However, for some strange, inexplicable reason, he and his fellow BrexShitters prefer to keep their perceptions of these real, tangible benefits secret - they've been asked innumerable times in this thread, and in its predecessors, to set these benefits out for our education but, so far, have failed spectacularly to provide us with this information.

I think we could be forgiven, under the circumstances, for believing they really don't have a clue....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 04:05 AM

Top 19 Brexiteers promises (assembled 3 years ago)

This is what we are getting, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 10:25 AM

Kare Hoey to stand down at next election

Not surprising, given the strength of Remain in her constituency, so she looked likely to lose very badly if she tried again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:12 PM

What she was ever doing in the Labour party I have no idea, not just a supporter of brexit but of foxhunting too. Probably hanging for all I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:42 PM

BrexShitters prefer to keep their perceptions of these real, tangible benefits secret - they've been asked innumerable times in this thread,

Some details have been given many times, but always dismissed by those who asked for the details. So it becomes somewhat pointless to try again, however:
Reduced food prices for food bought from around the world, where we currently have EU imposed tariffs designed to protect the farming communities on mainland Europe
Control of our own fishing waters, rather than allowing the EU to decide on fishing quotas.
The ability to control the number of migrants coming from the EU.
Those are three of the benefits mentioned many times, but doubtless they will be ignored again.

As for So tell us. No wishy-washy nonsense such as ‘Take are cuntry back’,, that phrase is one which you consistently use, but which I haven't seen used by any of the Brexit supporters here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 02:26 AM

On another thread Ians wrote
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Leadership Contest
From: Iains - PM
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:11 PM

DMcG IT seems compo corbyn has been dragged off the fence by his union paymasters. Is that how democracy works for labour? The biggest checquebook dictates policy? Oh Dear!


I think it better addressed here.

It would be much more accurate to say it was the support of the 'Unite' union in particular that allowed Corbyn to stay 'on the fence'. For a long time most unions and most of the members have thought the party should take a stronger remain stance, but at least initially it made sense to recognise that after we leave (or not), we still all have to live on the same island and talk to each other, which led to a more complex and ambiguous stance. However, few people still think that is the best approach, and now believe that its time is over.

As for setting policy, the new position - if it happens - is still in line with the policy set last year, because it was a quite complex set of statements. Nothing unusual in that - there is almost always a stage like this where a general statement needs to be refined into a more precise position and ultimately to down to specific actions. It is essentially the same problem as taking a generic 'Leave means Leave' and working out what exactly that means for the security policy, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 03:08 AM

Nigel, the food which comes from non-EU countries is at present mostly covered by EU trade agreements, such as LDC agreements. So there will be no cheaper food.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 03:10 AM

Nigel.

1. Prices will only decrease if any savings are passed on to the consumer. Which they will not be.
2. Yes, you can have that one. It may benefit that massive section of our economy, the fishing industry.
3. We have control of immigration anyway.

So the three main benefits you quote are unlikely, negligible and untrue. Little wonder they are dismissed. But you still keep rolling them out

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 03:14 AM

And the fishing bit is a disaster. You take the EU controls off and the British fishermen will fish out the waters within a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 03:41 AM

And the fishing bit is a disaster. You take the EU controls off and the British fishermen will fish out the waters within a decade.

The EU fisheries policy is hardly a masterpiece of conservation. It would be a struggle to be any worse when we take back controlof our waters.
https://our.fish/press/north-sea-cod-struggling/

I saw more trawlers in Bearhaven yesterday than I would be able to see in Grimsby. Even the chippy on the docks in Grimsby now uses frozen fish.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/what-could-happen-grimsbys-fishing-1343767

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM

The fleets in Grimsby and Hull - the serious! large-scale part of the UK fishing industry - were killed by greedy owners, over-fishing of our own waters, and the Icelandic Cod Wars.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM

And before Nigs gets around to nitpicking - the exclamation mark after ‘serious’ in my previous post was a typo. Bloody iPad keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM

And before that the north sea herring. British fishermen have a history of fishing out their children's futures for a quick buck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 04:23 AM

Read and Ponder!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/21/the-eu-has-destroyed-some-of-our-most-prosperous-industries---an/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 06:06 AM

From a BrexShit-pushing ‘newspaper’ owned by the billionaire, tax-dodging, BrexShit-supporting Barclay Brothers.

You really are a complete, brainwashed sucker aren’t you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 06:37 AM

More arse-wipe fodder. The author of that piece was a brexit party candidate in the European elections. Here is all you need to know about James Bartholomew.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 06:49 AM

What is often overlooked is that 'control of the UK fisheries' means the UK government has a free hand in deciding who gets what rights. It is quite an assumption that the rights will be sold to UK fisheries if the Spanish or whoever are offering the UK government more money for the rights than UK fishing companies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 09:23 AM

Here is all you need to know about James Bartholomew.
A BIT MORE HERE
Read and disgust
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 09:31 AM

1. Prices will only decrease if any savings are passed on to the consumer. Which they will not be.
2. Yes, you can have that one. It may benefit that massive section of our economy, the fishing industry.
3. We have control of immigration anyway.

1, That works on the assumption that wholesalers/retailers will profiteer, and that the public won't notice and take their custom elsewhere.
2, O.k. so that's one accepted, maybe we'll stop having comments that nobody ever gives details of benefits from Brexit
3, We have control over immigration from outside the EU, but not from within, which is the comment I made.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 09:35 AM

What is often overlooked is that 'control of the UK fisheries' means the UK government has a free hand in deciding who gets what rights. It is quite an assumption that the rights will be sold to UK fisheries if the Spanish or whoever are offering the UK government more money for the rights than UK fishing companies.

Yes, but it would be under the control of UK, not of EU. It would probably be worth leasing some of the licences to (say) Spain for a while anyway while the UK fishing fleet gears up to make the most of our waters being back under our control.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 09:57 AM

Companies are in the business of making profits, not helping the consumer.

The fisheries thing makes no difference whatsoever to our overall economy. It is, if you'll excuse the pun, a red herring.

We do have control over immigration from the EU and always have had. You fell for that lie and keep repeating it. We can and always have been able to stop anyone from entering the country. The fact that our own government chose not to apply the controls has nothing to do with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 10:45 AM

Strictly speaking, the EU rules regarding free movement of people say that we can’t prevent EU citizens from entering the UK, but we can prevent them from remaining - if they are not housed, employed, and self-sufficient within three months, we can send them home.

Unfortunately, successive governments, both Tory and Labour, have neglected to enact that control. That’s the fault of the UK, Sweet FA to do with the EU.

And, of course, free movement works both ways - at least as many U.K. citizens have moved to other EU member-states as vice-versa.

And the UK fishing industry - the large-scale part that was based on the Humber ports and which accounted for the vast majority of fish landed in the U.K. ‘back then’ has gone for ever - it will not come back, no matter whether we Leave, or (please God, let it be so!) Remain.

So your pipe-dream of a re-juvenated, buoyant fishing industry (see what I did there?) is just that - a pipe-dream. Dream on. The piddly-little boats will carry on, but the big boys, the deep-sea fleet that made all the big money, is gone for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

But I don't get this "it would be under the control of the UK, not the EU". What the hell difference does it make. The only difference is that EU politicians are rather more inclined to listen to what people who actually know about the issue than UK ones, who tend to do only what makes them popular, not what is right. Hence if UK politicians are making decisions on fishing quotas, we will end up with empty seas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM

We can stop anyone entering the UK if there is just cause BWM. But, yes, aside from that, anyone wishing to remain here has to be seen to be self supporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 11:38 AM

”We have control over immigration from outside the EU, but not from within, which is the comment I made.”

And you’re just making this stuff up, presumably to try to cover up your embarrassment at having been so dopey as to fall for the BrexShit-Bullshit. You really do need to widen your reading, and stop being taken in by the nonsense spouted by the fascist Farage and his cohorts.

From the ONS report, ‘Migration Statistics Quarterly Report May 2019’ - I tried to link to it but the link didn’t work...

”2. Main points

Long-term international net migration, immigration and emigration figures have remained broadly stable since the end of 2016.

Long-term international net migration data show that migrants continued to add to the UK population as an estimated 258,000 more people moved to the UK with an intention to stay 12 months or more than left in the year ending December 2018. Over the year, 602,000 people moved to the UK (immigration) and 343,000 people left the UK (emigration).

EU long-term immigration has fallen since 2016 and is at its lowest since 2013. Non-EU long-term immigration has gradually increased over the last five years to similar levels seen in 2011.

Since 2016, overall long-term immigration to the UK for work has continued to decrease and looking at all available data sources, this has mainly been due to the fall in EU immigration to the UK for work. For non-EU citizens, since 2015, work-related immigration to the UK has remained broadly stable, however, the number of skilled work visas issued has been increasing.

As seen in all available sources, non-EU student immigration has recently risen, after remaining broadly stable between 2013 and 2017. Most non-EU citizens arriving in the UK to study went to university and the number of sponsored applications for universities in the year ending March 2019 was the highest level on record.

The UK granted asylum, alternative forms of leave, or resettlement to 17,304 people in the year ending March 2019, an increase on the previous year. Grants of protection were at their highest number since 2003.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

A new poll by ComRes for the Telegraph today shows that in the event Boris is elected leader of the Conservative Party, the party leads Labour by seven points and would win a 40 seat majority in an election. Under Hunt, the two parties are projected to both be tied on 26% with Labour ahead on seats and the Brexit Party winning 23. Under Boris, the Brexit Party win 0…

We shall see! Recent polls have been flummoxed by the fickle finger of fate, when tested in the ballot box.

Meanwhile back to Labour and the travails of compo corbyn the cabbage patch king: Brought from the pen of truth GUIDO FAWKES
Lifelong Eurosceptic Jeremy Corbyn has finally relented to immense pressure within his party to throw his support fully behind a second referendum and Remaining in the EU. The writing was on the wall for his personal Brexit resistance after Len McCluskey folded last night. One final roll of the dice to try to save his own skin…

Labour say that the Shadow Cabinet has finally agreed on a “settled Brexit position” to:

    “challenge whoever emerges as the leader of the Conservative Party to have the confidence to put their deal to the people in a referendum, with remain on the ballot, in which Labour would campaign for remain.”

Whether this leads to any material change in Corbyn’s day-to-day approach to Brexit remains to be seen…

What they still haven’t clarified is what their policy would be if they actually ended up in Government trying to negotiate Brexit themselves. The Unions’ position is that Labour’s stance in that case would depend on the deal negotiated. Would be strange for them to negotiate a deal and then immediately campaign against it…

They are still the in out hokey cokey party,but increasingly driven by their union paymasters and thus have abandoned vast swathes of their electorate. I suspect come election time there will be carnage.
You could not make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM

. It would probably be worth leasing some of the licences to (say) Spain for a while anyway while the UK fishing fleet gears up

So what you are saying is the UK fishing sector should invest in building up the fleet while it has no income, and will have no guarantee of success in winning a licence in future, and when the time comes to bid, have higher overheads to do with repaying for this new fleet whereas the Spanish (for example) have already covered a substantial part of those debts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM

All student immigration is good. It is a measure of the strength of the UK higher education sector.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 01:55 PM

re that 'guido fawkes' bloke. i saw him on question time and was surprised to see how young he is. and dim. and err...driven.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 01:58 PM

Must be time to point out again how constituencies voted in the brexit referendum. (and before the usual suspects start their nonsense, the figures below are reasonably accurate assessments. The exact figures are largely irrelevant, the percentages speak for themselves)

In the 2016 EU referendum, 148 Labour constituencies voted to leave, 84 to remain. 247 Conservative constituencies voted to leave, 80 to remain. Best estimates are that 249 Conservative constituencies probably voted to leave, and 81 to remain (based on the 2015 general election seat distribution). This clearly shows that had MPs really represented their constituents Brexit would have occurred long,long ago.

It behoves MPs of both major parties to pay attention to these figures should an election be in the offing. Constituency parties will want very clear statements from their prospective MPs concerning their Brexit position before being selected. Imposing/inflicting candidates just ain't gonna work this next time around for either side of the divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

It is possible that come the next election either a Brexit deal has been agreed or we have left with no deal. In which case cross examining potential candidates on what they wanted to do abut leaving, while ignoring all the other issue would be utterly pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 02:56 PM

"and err...driven."
So he should be with all those convictions for drunk driving
Should be locked away and the key thrown away if he ever gets behind a wheel again - bloody piss artist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 04:19 PM

Should be locked away and the key thrown away if he ever gets behind a wheel again - bloody piss artist

But he is still followed by very many MPs and frequently is first with the news politically. When are you going to tire of shooting the messenger rather than the message?

As I recall Winston Churchill was very near a raging alcoholic by the standards of today. Did it impact his speeches or prodigious literary output?
Churchill is held in high esteem for his accomplishments, not how many he could drink under the table.
Do you understand the difference yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 07:31 PM

So what you are saying is the UK fishing sector should invest in building up the fleet while it has no income, and will have no guarantee of success in winning a licence in future, and when the time comes to bid, have higher overheads to do with repaying for this new fleet whereas the Spanish (for example) have already covered a substantial part of those debts.

No, what I am saying, and what you are having problems understanding, is that once the UK has control over our fishing grounds, our fishing fleet will see that expansion is worthwhile because the UK can decide who has access to those fishing grounds. It is not a matter of who will "win a license". The UK , as a (once again) sovereign nation, can decide to issue fishing licences for the benefit of UK fishermen.

My previous comment made clear that, in the short term, it might be better to sell 'short term' leases to other countries, while the UK builds up its fishing fleet once more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 07:36 PM

For crying out loud, he is the epitome of the gutter press, except he is not the press, he deals in 'sound bites'on a blog.

That is all he is, a blogger.

There is no depth, no analysis or any credence to his output.

You choose to quote him because he panders to your warped opinion of politics ......... no depth, no analysis and certainly no credence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 07:54 PM

Nigel,

I live in what used to be a decent fishing town. The companies who had quotas sold them off to the highest bidder. That that bidder could local, English, British made not the slightest difference to them.

The small number of, mainly men, were laid off, not that they had contracts, they were 'sparehands' laid off after every trip not knowing if they would get on a ship next time it left port.

Your rose colour spectacles will not alter that situation one iota.

Despite some people still holding quotas there is not one trawler that has sailed from this port and hasn't been for 20 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 08:15 PM

That (Raggytash) is the basis of the whole argument. Leavers believe that the UK, as a nation, is finished, and can never be a worthwhile, separate, sovereign, nation,
Brexiteers believe that the UK is capable of functioning outside of the control of the EU.

You have obviously already chosen your side of the argument in complete capitulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 08:18 PM

Leavers believe that the UK, as a nation, is finished,

Sorry, that should be "Remainers believe"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 19 - 08:56 PM

Once again. Whether you're in the progressive south or in Labour's northern heartlands, the fact remains that there wasn't a single constituency anywhere in which Labour voters had a majority supporting leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:20 AM

No, what I am saying, and what you are having problems understanding, is that once the UK has control over our fishing grounds, our fishing fleet will see that expansion is worthwhile because the UK can decide who has access to those fishing grounds

As I say fairly often, I like to make a statement, respond, then leave it, so I will not be continuing this subtopic beyond this post. But, I understand that perfectly well, Nigel. The points I raised were that whether you can see opportunities long term or not, such expansion costs money and that has to come from somewhere. Also, unlike many businesses that can grow 1 or 2 percent at a time, the nature of shipping and access to fishing areas make that very much more granular: you have say 3 ships and want to expand to 4: you have to cost-justify a 25% expansion, or not expand. The established traders do not have to build up additional resources and so can bid more for a given level of profit. Now, some of the biggest UK businesses may be able to justify the gamble of investing but then not winning the business. I don't think small ones can.

Then the second point is that while the UK (government) can decide who gets access, there is no reason to believe the UK fishermen will get any sort of preferential treatment: indeed it would not be hard to make the case that the focus should be income to the UK as a whole, not any one specific sector, and therefore it would be wrong to give them such preferential treatment. So any fishermen who voted leave on the grounds it would protect their industry may find it does not work out like that at a personal level.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:39 AM

"Did it impact his speeches or prodigious literary output?"
Witten by somebody else and not particularly well delivered
A man in the right place at the right time - no more
Churchill's one outstanding quality was that he opposed the rise of fascism while all his Tory colleagues were happy to look the other way
He was happy to turn out the troops against striking miners - too near home to ignore

Anybody who ignores the latest Trump Circus regarding the new Ambassador and his attacks on the British elected leadership and hasn't been alerted to the dangers of placing the fortunes of Brexit Britain in the hands of the U.S. has to be regarded a Quisling
If I were in any way a nationalist or even a patriot I would regard it a personal insult
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:02 AM

Once again. Whether you're in the progressive south or in Labour's northern heartlands, the fact remains that there wasn't a single constituency anywhere in which Labour voters had a majority supporting leave.

Sweeping statements backed by zero evidence is just distracting white noise. Is it whimsy again, or simply an inability to find and construct supporting links? Repeating lies does not make them true

Whereas my easily found and simply constructed link utterly rejects your false assertions


https://fullfact.org/online/referendum-results-by-constituency/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:36 AM

"Did it impact his speeches or prodigious literary output?"
Witten by somebody else and not particularly well delivered

Yet he was awarded the Nobel prize for literature in 1953. I suspect the Nobel Committee know a little more about his standing than an exile that snipes at blighty nearly every opportunity. I am also absolutely certain he was not guilty of plagiarism so wrong again!

It is a matter of public record that .. When demand was high for his newspaper and magazine articles, Churchill employed a ghostwriter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:42 AM

A report on the BBC website suggests that up to 40,000 jobs could be lost in Northern Ireland if a no-deal Brexit were to occur.

This information is based on analysis from Stormonts Department for the Economy. That is a government department, not anyone who our Brexiteers could describe as tree-hugging leftards or any other such offensive name.

Will any of our Brexiteers have the courage to respond ....... I doubt it.

Could someone please link to the webpage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

Link to the BBC Site

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:49 PM

Thank you Monique

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain.
As Iains said, a sweeping statement with no referenced back-up.
As the referendum was a secret ballot, no-one knows how the vote was broken down, any polls are just that, and we saw around the referendum just how accurate polls may be (or not).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 12:55 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.

This is only true because more than 'one' constituency had more leave voters than remainers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 01:05 PM

Not more Labour leave voters than Labour remain voters. We appear to be suffering from a rash of illiteracy around here this afternoon. And we are talking about surveys after the event rather than polls before the event. Of course, no-one can force anyone to tell the truth, but I'd just point out that one individual here who is never on my side of the argument resorts to published polls all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 01:43 PM

Is this all lies then?

https://fullfact.org/online/referendum-results-by-constituency/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:11 PM

I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:12 PM

… And, of course, how it demonstrates we will be able to assert our sovereignty when it comes to any US trade deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Stanron, that link gives no information about which way Labour voters voted in the referendum. That is simply not addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain. Perhaps you should read more carefully what was typed before hurling your insults around.
As the pantomime dame is wont t osay: OH YES THERE IS !

As I frequently say: I believe in posting facts.
One example Birmingham

Birmingham is divided into ten parliamentary constituencies, each of which elects one Member of Parliament (MP) to the House of Commons.
EU Referendum Results 2016 by Constituency and Ward
    Edgbaston - Preet Gill (Labour)Voted leave
    Erdington - Jack Dromey (Labour)leave
    Hall Green - Mr Roger Godsiff (Labour)
    Hodge Hill - Liam Byrne (Labour)Leave
    Ladywood - Shabana Mahmood (Labour)
    Northfield - Richard Burden (Labour)leave
    Perry Barr - Mr Khalid Mahmood (Labour)leave
    Selly Oak - Steve McCabe (Labour)
    Sutton Coldfield - Mr Andrew Mitchell (Conservative)
    Yardley - Jess Phillips (Labour)

Time for a little reminder:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:31 AM
I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. It’s what we do to politicians, Nigel. I find it devilishly amusing and I don’t expect anyone to think I’m telling the literal truth

Now if we wish to discuss insults;

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:34 PM

Come on, mods. You did it with Teribus and you did it with akenaton. This bloke is worse. Make the place sweeter and get rid of him. Surely you've seen enough. And Jim, no responding this time, right?

Noy even your gig and you presume to dictate! You really are insufferable at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:49 PM

Very nice Iains, but it does not tell us which members of the public voted to remain or to stay.

Furthermore it does not tell us which of those people who may or may not be labour voters voted to stay or remain.

May I suggest that you go back to Steve's original post and try (I know it may be difficult for you) to comprehend exactly what he was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM

Just look at the oft quoted Survey on how the country voted. In case you have not got the sense to find it yourselves, here it is again. in case you cannot be arsed to even follow that, the key point is that 65% of Labour voters chose remain. Steve has it right. I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:57 PM

OK I see what you are saying. What do you think of this?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/09/23/labours-losing-leave-voters

from the same source.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:03 PM

Well, Stanron, I begin by noticing it is from September 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:28 PM

”I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.”

Put it on the side of a big red bus Dave, they’ll believe it then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:41 AM

It makes sense, Stanron. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. If the party is not fulfilling their wishes it is little wonder that they will lose some members. Hopefully they have now addressed that issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM

Raggtash The figures are very clear, In Birmingham the Brexit vote was broken down into wards and constituencies enabling the breakdown to be studied very thoroughly. Not all councils followed suit so statistical methods had to be employed leading to slight inaccuracies as highlighted in my previous link
It should be obvious to anyone the votes are spread among constituencies.
The only time a gross figure is of any relevance is in a referendum where leave won! In the case of constituencies it is the majority vote within the constituency dictates outcomes as you very well know.
If it makes you feel better to argue what the different figures mean fair enough, but constituency majorities determine outcomes- nothing else. Distorting the outcomes by including those that did not vote may plump up your figures but we can all see the absurdity of such meaningless pastimes

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 06:22 AM

There is no way in which: Just look at the oft quoted Survey on how the country voted. In case you have not got the sense to find it yourselves, here it is again. in case you cannot be arsed to even follow that, the key point is that 65% of Labour voters chose remain. Steve has it right. I don't know how to make it simpler apart from putting it in a Ladybird book. Or the Daily Mail. The majority of Labour voters everywhere chose remain.
can be taken as confirmation of Steve's contention that: There was not a single constituency in which more Labour voters voted leave than remain.
The fact that the YouGov survey says that 65% of the national Labour vote was for remain does not mean that this was the case in every single constituency.
Maybe a Ladybird book is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 09:20 AM

Nigel. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. Discount Scotland and NI because they all wanted to remain. To have more Labour voters for leave in any English or Welsh constituency it means that in others the remain vote amongst Labour voters must have been massively over 65%. By no statistical or linguistic trick can that be true. You are clutching at straws.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

But overall Leave had 17,410,742 votes which equates to 51.89% of those that voted. What colour shirt or dress they wore on the day is but a distraction, similarly with what way party members voted. It is of no significance that you claim 65% of labour voted to remain
(It is only a polled figure anyway) Remain still lost so the argument is of no significance, as carefully explained on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM

Very nice Iains, but it does not tell us which members of the public voted to remain or to stay.

Well let us make an assumption that those that voted for a Labour MP in the 2015 election also maintained their majority vote one year later in the referendum.
I take as an example Birmingham Northfields These figures are actual.

Labour         Richard Burden         17,673         41% in 2015 election
Labour         Richard Burden         23,596         53.2% in 2017 election         Increase 11.6 %
June 2016 Referendum result by wards of Northfields constituency:

       WARD            Renain Leave   Total   Remain Leave

        Kings Norton        4,275        6,643        10,918        
       Longbridge        4,269        8,157        12,426        
        Northfield        5,005        8,151        13,156                
        Weoley         4,785        6,695        11,480        7        18,334   27,256

        59$ voted leave                        
       53% voted labour
That succinctly demonstrate a labour stronghold that voted leave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

Nigel. 65% of Labour voters wanted to remain. Discount Scotland and NI because they all wanted to remain. To have more Labour voters for leave in any English or Welsh constituency it means that in others the remain vote amongst Labour voters must have been massively over 65%. By no statistical or linguistic trick can that be true.
No statistical or linguistic trickery required.
To put it very simply (as that seems to be necessary), if the average Labour vote to remain was 65% (and that is just the result of a poll, not a verified figure) then 65% is an average when considering constituencies. To see one constituency drop below 50% would not seem unlikely. Nor would it be unlikely (in view of the total number of constituencies available) for several constituencies to have less than 50% of their Labour supporters voting remain.
Whether the extremes which make up that 65% average are as broad as I suggest they may be, there is nothing to confirm Steve Shaw's contention.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM

I don't claim 65%. A YouGov survey does.

Nigel. Fair argument. Unlikely as it seems, there is a slim possibility that some were less than 50%. As there is no proof either way I think we are down to opinions. So, who do I believe? One that is more likely to be correct, given by someone who is not prone to making things up. Or that of a nitpicking pedant with no proof then other way?

Hmmmm. Tough one...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

BTW. Just noticed my tablet power is at 65% but I cannot offer any proof so I guess I could be imagining it.

Sheeesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM

How about s screen dump. Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM

Show us how to post a screen dump on Mudcat. PIllock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM

Since I said --
I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

--- Nigel, Stanron and Iains have all posted on other topics. I assume I was right in thinking they might not want to discuss what this shows and suggests about our sovereignty when dealing the the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for introducing a bit of sanity cousin McG.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:15 PM

Show us how to post a screen dump on Mudcat. PIllock.

1) Take screenshot
2) paste into paint and save as jpeg or any other common format
3) use any suitable ocr freeware to convert the text saved in the paint         file
4) Copy final product into mudcat text box

eg from my laptop

Battery
Overview
100%
See which apps are affecting your battery life

Simples! as Martin said to his man "who is the fool now!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:26 PM

Since I said --
I wonder if our resident Brexit supporters are going to explain Trump's ability to force Sir Kim Darroch to resign illustrates our sovereignty.

--- Nigel, Stanron and Iains have all posted on other topics. I assume I was right in thinking they might not want to discuss what this shows and suggests about our sovereignty when dealing the the US.

I didn't comment because it was a false premise. Trump didn't force Darroch to resign. That was his own decision.
However, the fact that Trump was no longer willing to deal with him after his comments were made known makes it unsurprising that Darroch chose to resign.
If any one person (apart from Darroch) was responsible for causing the resignation, I would suggest it was whoever decided to leak the earlier comments, or the newspaper which decided that they were worth publishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:43 PM

Proof of the pudding!
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/downloads/download/755/referendum_results
Numerically by Ward, Constituency and political party

Sadly not all councils were as "thorough".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:59 PM

Here is a link to the Hansard record of the Parliamentary debate on Kim Dorroch

Most MPs of all parties seem to agree that there is more to it than 'he chose to resign'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:09 PM

Who's the fool indeed. I'm not the one going to great lengths to prove a completely nonsensical argument. Knobwhappet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM

I wonder what a knobwhappet is? Even the internet does not offer an explanation. Obviously run out of counter arguments so resorts to the fallback position of the left, so I presume it is some kind of insult.
What a sad little fellow.Most people try to find constructive things to do in their retirement.

I find it no surprise the ambassador resigned. His cover was blown and his usefulness thereby finished. Who in their right mind thinks he could just carry on as normal after trashing the head of state of the country he was assigned to? They must be living in a fantasy world.
    The real question to be answered is who leaked the document and was it transmitted by electronic means or by diplomatic bag. Opinions of that sort of sensitivity should have had the highest levels of security.
It is expected that ambassador's opinions are candid, that is an essential part of their remit. But, by the same token such findings should not be on public view to accompany the bacon and eggs of a sunday breakfast. Those guilty of the leak must be identified and severely punished. Secrecy is an essential part of diplomacy and it is essential that it is maintained, regardless of what his opinions were. They were never meant for public consumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:55 PM

And. I see you cannot mention sovereignty either, Iains. Here is an extract from the Hansard debate. The views expressed here are quite typical of the whole debate:

===

Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
May I first welcome the comments of my friend the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and my right hon. Friend the Minister? This has been a very difficult moment for British diplomacy, and it is worth thinking about why that is so.

This is a direct challenge to a sovereign nation and its ability to nominate its own representative. If sovereignty does not allow a nation to choose its own representative, frankly, what is it but servitude? That is why Britain must stand up for our envoys. If we do not think that they are up to it, we must replace them, but we must not be bullied into seeing them kicked out or silenced. May I therefore ask my right hon. Friend to assure me, and everyone in this House, that Her Majesty’s Government will always stand up for those we send abroad, military or civilian, and back them as necessary, in the interests of the British people and no one else.

====

Most people agree that the leaker should be found and suffer any relevant penalty. Richard Tice, the Brexit Party MEP, speaking on Newsnight last night, did not think the police should be involved in investigating this, and was very much of the "move on and let's appoint a businessman instead of a civil servant" mind set, but almost everyone else seems to take the leak more seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Nigel, but you are well aware of the concept of constructive dismissal. For example, Wiki express it it as this:

In employment law, constructive dismissal, also called constructive discharge or constructive termination, occurs when an employee resigns as a result of the employer creating a hostile work environment. Since the resignation was not truly voluntary, it is, in effect, a termination. For example, when an employer places extraordinary and unreasonable work demands on an employee to obtain their resignation, this can constitute a constructive dismissal.

(There are lots of equivalent expressions elsewhere)

Trump behaved as he often does. Boris, given a choice of clearly supporting the ambassador at the risk of crossing Trump, went with Trump. The ambassador found that the hostile environment spoken of above.

But I also notice that the answer you gave made no mention of sovereignty, which was an important part of the question.

Nice quote about 'constructive dismissal', but it doesn't appear to support your argument. It describes such dismissal as caused by the employer, and you were saying Trump caused the registration/dismissal. Trump is/was not the employer of Kim Darroch, so this definition doesn't fit the situation.


As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter. The UK can still appoint an ambassador, but the country he/she is sent to can still choose whether to interact with that ambassador. The chosen person then needs to be mutually acceptable to the two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter

Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM

The MPs are all wriggling trying to shift blame.Sovereignty does not enter the equation. The ambassador's goose was cooked. He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered. His was not. Once it hit the public domain his position was untenable. That is what caused his termination regardless of whether he jumped or was pushed.
Diplomacy is about being diplomatic, the ambassador was not. Had he described you in such terms would you want anything to do with him?
Sovereignty has absolutely nothing to do with the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:56 AM

That's how you see it. To me, it looks more like the Brexit supporters are unwilling to reflect on how Trump throwing his weight around and our apparent willingness to capitulate shows the vacuousness of the sovereignty claims they have been making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 08:04 AM

The ambassador's communications were confidential. Trump has no business even knowing about them. The person who leaked them deserves the most severe punishment. If he had said something uncomplimentary to Trump's face, even something as blinding obvious to everyone as the material he did send in confidence, then I agree that he would have had to go. But he didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM

One of the saddest things about BrexShit is the way it has emboldened and given a voice to racists and xenophobes who think it's OK to do things like this.

No doubt written by a Yaxley-Lennon Fan-Boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM

"He is expected to be accurate in his assessments but the language used needs to be tempered."
LIKE THIS ?
Arsekissers of the world unite !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM

I think, Jim, the response will be that Trump does not claim to be a diplomat. Of course, then they have all the diplomatic reports released by the WikiLeaks business, plus all the commentary from current diplomats that there was not exceptional whatsoever in the language and style of writing of Darroch. Which will be deemed irrelevant, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM

Diplomats are supposed to be subservient to world leaders otherwise it would be their fingers on the button
Q - What's the difference between a patriot and a Qusiling
A - ****** if I know, given the sample here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM
As to sovereignty, I don't see how that enters the matter
Fair enough you can't see it. Most people can, as that Hansard debate shows.

Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on.

What more can be expected?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jul 19 - 02:18 PM

Ok, so totally ignore the fact that I've totally smashed your argument about "Constructive dismissal" and go off on another tangent, ignoring the argument you've failed on.

No you didn't. Trump sounds off, Boris - who now admits he didn't do enough to defend Kim - is more concerned with pleasing Trump than supporting his staff, and Kim sees that his [probable] boss will not support him. That was my argument. It would be a naïve interpretation to think that just because the lack of support from Boris was the immediate cause of the hostile environment that Trump played no part in its construction.


In any case, I am not interested in games of 'who wins the argument'. I make my points, which people can agree with or not. Its up to them. That is one reason why, as I say often, I try to make a point, explain it once (mainly to clarify what it seems I was unclear about first time) and then try to leave it. That allows you, or Iains, or anyone else to have the last word. I don't care either way, I am not keeping score.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 03:55 AM

According to today's Sunday Times:


The chairman of Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party was last night embroiled in the "Trump files" leak scandal as it emerged that he is in a relationship with the writer whose story brought down Britain’s ambassador to Washington.
Richard Tice, a Brexit Party MEP, is dating Isabel Oakeshott, who last week published leaked diplomatic cables in which Sir Kim Darroch branded Donald Trump "clumsy and inept", forcing Darroch’s resignation when the president announced he would not work with him.

Security sources said a suspect had been identified for the leaks amid "panic" in Whitehall that a "pro-Brexit Kim Philby" figure has been trying to undermine officials not deemed supportive enough of leaving the EU. Scotland Yard and the intelligence services believe a civil servant with access…


(Because it is behind a paid firewall, the article is truncated at that point. The Guardian's comments on the Times article say:


According to the Sunday Times, which cited unnamed government sources, a suspect had been identified and suggestions that it could be the result of a computer hack by a foreign state had been ruled out.
"They think they know who did the leaking," an unnamed government source told the paper. "It's now a case of building a case that will stand up in court. It was someone with access to historical files. They went in and grabbed a range of material. It was quite crude."


I am reminded that on Newsnight a few days ago, Richard Tice was against a police investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:10 AM

Judging by today's papers there are yet more delights to be had from the ambassador's leaked "postbag". For example: Support for the dodgy dossier on trump/russian collusion.
Seems we went to war on bliar blairs dodgy dossier.
What was the real intent of the trump/russian dossier? Destabilise his presidency and aid a deep state coup?
Jus' like:
the notorious 1953 coup against Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mosaddeq and nothing to do with the AIOC/BP nationalisation.
Have to admit though, that one went better than the suez fiasco a few years later!

When caught interfering in another country's affairs, simply getting fired is escaping lightly. Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice. To try to argue Trump interfered in sovereign affairs of the UK is risible. BOOT is on t'other foot!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM

Doesn't seem that the ambassador said anything that wasn't in the Muller report anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM

Seems that the sewer press are getting their bought and paid for lackeys in Parliament to lean on the Met to go soft on the leakers and publishers of the ambassador's accurate and confidential communications. Such as paid Telegraph columnist Boris Johnson, occasional Times columnist and spouse of a Mail hack Michael Gove, and Murdoch lackey Jeremy C Hunt. The weasels are closing ranks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM

Lucky he does not get jail time or offed with extreme prejudice

When Sir Simon McDonald responded to the resignation letter he said
I understand your wish to relieve the pressure on your family

What do you think that meant, in a land of widespread gun ownership? It could mean his family being subjected to loud and vocal mobs harassing them. Or it could mean 'offed with extreme prejudice'.

Not a phrase to use lightly, I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

A superbly-written piece about politics in general, but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the foul Widdecombe hag, from I See You

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM

Should have been “...but Brexit, the Brexit Party, and the fouls Widdecombe hag specifically, from...”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 09:55 AM

The EU’s Galileo navigation system, set up as a competitor to American GPS and much-trumpeted by Remainers, has now been broken since Friday. Users were sent an advisory notice instructing them to avoid the service. Given that many key parts of the system involve the UK, the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:05 AM

"the EU may already be starting to regret its decision to freeze the UK out."
Britain chose to leave - it was their decision to "freeze themselves out"
Having your cake and eating it or what !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 10:49 AM

The EU may have the shiny clockwork car but it appears the UK may have the only key to wind it up. I cannot put it any more simply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 11:15 AM

"the UK may have the only key to wind it up."
Little Brit gloating about other countries problems is hardly going to win them the friends they are going to need to make up for the mass exodus of British businesses
The EU have the resources to overcome problems - and industry-less Britain can hardly be described as essential to anybody any more
Maybe Dyson can help ?
Whoops - nearly forgot - he's pissed off to Singapore
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM

The suggestion that UK has the only key is extremely doubtful - is there the slightest evidence for this? According to the statement the agency issued:




The cause of the technical incident is identified and recovery actions are implemented to ensure that the nominal service is resumed as soon as possible while safeguarding quality of the services.

Galileo provides “initial services”, the phase that precedes the “full operational services” phase, since December 2016. Nominal Galileo redundant capabilities and associated service continuity functions are partially affected by on-going major deployment activities towards the Galileo “full operational services”.



Some papers like the Express seem keen to make a meal of it. It does not sound anything out of the ordinary when moving from 'initial services' to 'full operational services'. Obviously, I am sure they would rather it had not happened' but it is common.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Why spoil the story with a few facts DMcG? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:36 PM

I love this thread, lots and lots of intelligent info and only a few childish insults, amazing. I read French and English (British?) papers but get way better analysis here. And while I'm a Mrrican and Trump yada yada, but I feel for you guys, really.
But...
75 years of peace for Europe? What about the former Yugoslavia and all the wars in Africa and the Middle East being fought by European might today?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

The EU have the resources to overcome problems - and industry-less Britain can hardly be described as essential to anybody any more

Fact:
In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people. Despite the decline since the 1970s, when manufacturing contributed 25% of UK GDP, the UK is currently the ninth largest manufacturing nation in the world.
Gross Domestic Product of United Kingdom grew 1.4% in 2018 compared to last year. This rate is 4 -tenths of one percent less than the figure of 1.8% published in 2017. The GDP figure in 2018 was $2,828,640 million, leaving United Kingdom placed 5th in the ranking of GDP according to the International Monetary Fund.

Ireland by contrast would rank no 33

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 01:50 PM

Galileo Project. a starting point.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/25/what-is-galileo-and-why-are-the-uk-and-eu-arguing-about-it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 02:09 PM

Ireland's position at number 33 is quite interesting because in terms of GDP per capita Ireland ranks about number 5 in the world rankings.
Should the EU introduce its much touted tax harmonisation rules I suspect Ireland could be very heavily impacted.
The distortion of Ireland's economic statistics (including GNI, GNP and GDP) by the tax practices of some multinationals, led the Central Bank of Ireland to propose an alternative measure (modified GNI or GNI*) to more accurately reflect the "true" state of the economy.

Foreign-owned multinationals continue to contribute significantly to Ireland's economy, making up 14 of the top 20 Irish firms (by turnover), employing 23% of the private sector labour-force, and paying 80% of business taxes.
Given the importance of US multinationals to Ireland's economy (80% of Irish multinational employment, and 14 of the 20 largest Irish firms), the passing of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 is a challenge to Ireland. Parts of the US TCJA are targeted at Irish multinational tax schemes (especially the move to a modern "territorial tax" system, the introduction of a lower FDII tax on intellectual property, and the counter-Irish GILTI tax regime). In addition, the EU's proposed Digital Sales Tax (and stated desire for a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base), is also seen as an attempt to restrict the use of the Irish multinational tax schemes by US technology firms.
    These impending changes coupled with a potential no deal Brexit will impact the Irish economy very heavily.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 02:57 PM

With regard to things like Galileo, EU companies will recruit British scientists and engineers working on it, holding out the promise of high salaries and shiny new French or German passports. The key people are very mobile.

If I was younger I would go. I may even do so now if I can find the right niche.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:03 PM

Interesting that the Irish economy grew by 8.4% last year according to reports on RTE

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 03:09 PM

"the UK may have the only key to wind it up."
Ireland is solidly in support of Europe and efforts by Ukip rejects who have attempted to dive a wedge between her and Europe have been totally rejected
The overwhelming feeling here is that the problem is solely Britain and its threat to the Border
Again, advice from a supporter of a policy which has all but destroyed British society and brought Parliamentary democracy to its knees really isn't needed
You have persistently dismissed what may happen to Britain so why raise it in relation to Ireland, for whom you have shown "bogtrotter" level contempt?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:14 PM

seen elsewhere


(Galileo) Galileo, (Galileo) Galileo, Galileo, Figaro magnifico
But I'm just a poor EU, nobody loves me
He's just a poor EU from a poor family
Spare him the UK from this monstrosity

    Bismillah! We will not let you go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:27 PM

That doesn't scan - the syllable count is all wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 05:44 PM

so why raise it in relation to Ireland,

1)Because as the Irish Times succinctly said a while back:
"EU tax plan 'is a bigger threat to Ireland than Brexit"

2)Because the financial legislation is already in place or proposed and reasonably accurate forecasts can be made as to the future impact of such changes. Perhaps if Belfast was made a freeport after brexit those American companies most impacted by proposed EU tax harmonisation would simply relocate a hop skip and jump up the coast from Dublin

With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. To make forecasts a minimum data set is required, otherwise the exercise is guesswork, and hence futile.( as has been stated here many times)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 02:02 AM

”With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. To make forecasts a minimum data set is required, otherwise the exercise is guesswork, and hence futile.( as has been stated here many times)”

And there we have it - confirmation, in two short sentences, of the sheer, unadorned stupidity of the Leave voter, from the mouth of our own arch-BrexShitter. They voted for something with not the faintest clue of how they would be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM

"”With Brexit nothing has been agreed therefore outcomes cannot be calculated. "
Any Government which does not base its policies on probable outcomes anddoes not plan in advance is not fit to hold office
Any government who pushes through a policy based on a leap in the dark, like Brexit obviously was, deserved to be removed from politics altogether
Nrexit has destabilised the future of Britain for at least two decades (admitted), has undermined the economy, driven away major industries, has divided the British people radically, particularly on the issue of race relations and has rendered the elected leadership totally impotent and at odds with each other
It has divided the elected ruling party into warring factions which has made Britain virtually ungovernable over the last few years and now threatens to destroy what is left of Parliamentary democracy and break up the U.K altogether
No possible decision on Brexit can begin to heal the damage that has already been done
DAMAGE SO FAR
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 06:35 AM

They voted for something with not the faintest clue of how they would be affected.

Which is bad, but nothing compared to continuing to insist the unknown must happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM

It's even worse than that really. A lot of what is likely to happen is known and none of it is good. No one has yet come up with any good news as this thread and the ones before it attest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 11:21 AM

1) Europe wants an army
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-14/france-maintains-goal-of-creating-a-european-army-minister

2)Call for EU federal superstate
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/690886/European-Union-Guy-Verhofstadt-MEP-Brexit-EU-superstate

3) EU wants to end veto on foreign policy and taxation and eventually end all vetoes
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/majority-voting-could-see-five-states-decide-eu-taxes-37898614.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ursula-von-der-leyen-eu-commission-president-foreign-policy-veto-qualified-major

Three very good reasons for getting out of Dodge, and all three vehemently denied on here by remainiacs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:02 PM

And answer came there none
The fact that Brexit has put Britain into free-fall seems to be an accepted fact, even by the arch-Brexiteers
"When at first you can't succeed - talk about something else", seems to be the order of the day here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

Those links - and the discussion on Galilleo - confuse countries/the EU with people. Yes, there are some senior people who want an army, or to end vetoes. But there are not the whole EU, and the article on taxation, for example, makes plain most countries are opposed.

It is the same confusion with Galileo, which David C pointed out very clearly. "The UK" does not have expertise in this. Individuals do, and they could easily move elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM

Comparing what could happen in the future with what has already happened since the brexit vote is hardly comparing like with like. Besides which, if Europe does become a "superstate" with its own army, the UK will hardly be in a position to match them either economically or in military strength. I would say if there is any truth in that speculation, which is all it is, we would be in a much better position inside the club than outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM

DMcG Have you heard of Robert the Bruce and the spider.
A little history from a previous post of mine
The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957

By the Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union; 1991), which went into force on November 1, 1993, the European Economic Community was renamed the European Community and was embedded into the EU as the first of its three “pillars”

The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) created the European Union as a single body of "three pillars". The pillars consist of the:
1) European Communities(the EEC),
2) Common Foreign and Security Policy
2) Cooperation in Justice and Home affairs.

Do you see a pattern forming here?
Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey?
items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to. YThe pattern I see is evermore integration

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM

Do you see a pattern forming here?
Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey?
items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to.

Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it. As Dave said, being outside that group and squeezed between such a superstate, the US, China and Russia - for example - does not sound a bright move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 02:17 AM

"Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it."
Absolutely
Beats leaving home like a sulky teenager any day
The EU is a combination of states dominated by a failing system - one that can no longer cater fo all its citizens - the rapidly increasing gap between haves and have nots is an obvious indication of how this is impacting on the people
This system will have to change or it will collapse
Brexit and Trumpism are ploys to divert attention from the effects - "blame someone else for our failures"
Immigrants and Muslims 'the enemy within', have taken the place of Germany's 'Jewish menace' - go dig out Farage's poster to see that message written in big letters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

"Lefties"
A TIMELY REMINDER OF RIGHT AND LEFT
AND ANOTHER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM

There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers. Which is why one in particular keeps trying to get it closed. Luckily, the moderation team are on to him and remove the ill concealed attempts to shut it down. Just ignore him and let the team do their bit to keep this important topic out of the cess pool.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 10:46 AM

The shape of politics to come was has been set in the US with Republicans, referring to a black politician, stood up and chanted "send her home"
Reminiscent of a Nuremberg Rally
Anybody who believes this has nothing to do with Brexit and Farage's poster - dream on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 12:03 PM

.There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers.

Here is one of them:
498 MPs voted to approve the second reading of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 to allow the Prime Minister to invoke Article 50 unconditionally. A failure to agree the terms of separation would result in a no deal. This can be defined as a failure by the European Union and the UK to negotiate and conclude an agreement setting out the arrangements for the UK's withdrawal before the Treaties cease to apply.

Now for one of those uncomfortable truths:How many of those MPs were closet remainers and lied to their constituents in order to take office? This should prove interesting come re-selection time for re-election. The electorate will extract it's revenge, make no mistake.
Support will be from the Labour heartlands the Tory shires and wholesale desertion from the Libdems. All Dysoned up by the Brexit party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM

Another uncomfortable truth came from the Office of Budget Responsibility. To the tune of £30 billion.

Will this forecast from an official government body also be dismissed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 01:41 PM

Forecast is a forecast
Truth is truth

The more astute among us recognise there is a vital difference

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM

One of the interesting things about the vote in the commons today to make proroguing Parliament more difficult arises from the observation that several government ministers abstained.   Now, Boris has said that the cabinet he picks will consist of pro-Brexit enthusiasts - he thinks the remainder inclined ministers have blocked Brexit.

But that forgets the convention that Government ministers (and PPS etc) vote in accordance with the Cabinet decisions. As a result they vote in line with the cabinet consensus, or in rare cases abstain. Those committed enough to resign are quite rare.

So: by forming a cabinet exclusively of pro-Brexit people you actually decrease the pro-Brexit vote in the house: the 'remainers' on the Government payroll are released to vote as they wish, and the pro-Brexit are constrained to vote the way they would anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:19 PM

Any comment about an official government department saying that it will cost an arm and a leg to the UK economy.

Note, not a think tank of left wing remainers but an official body.

Unicorns and pie in sky anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

increasingly it seems like we are being led by a group of incompetent fanatics engaged in a crazy project to remove us from our european ties into an impoverished and ignored relationship as the 52nd state of trump's america first USA.

WTFF?

surely this is precisely what no sane citizen would have wanted. yet here we are, with our next PM making up stories while brandishing a haddock and kissing a big, fat, orange, racist arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

And the Chancellor appoints the governor of the Bank of England;
Apr 28, 2019 - The Bank of England got its Brexit forecasts wrong, according to ... Governor Carney

Note, not a think tank of left wing remainers but an official body.

Anymore for tennis?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:57 PM


Any comment about an official government department saying that it will cost an arm and a leg to the UK economy

I would expect simple denial.

Remember how the fall in the value of the pound after the result was just a correction and nothing to do with Brexit? Having seen the sterling movements since Boris/Hunt started talking up a no deal I am surprised we haven't yet been told they are nothing to do with Brexit either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 03:02 PM

telling lies, brandishing a haddock. kissing fat, orange, racist arse - good old england!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 04:03 PM

The collapse in the value of the pound since the brexit vote is just the first of the horrendous consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM

I googled brandishing a haddock and it came back with Tintin. What did I miss?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:23 AM

Mrrzy - Boris Johnson (likely our new PM) was telling lies yesterday about the EU, claiming that EU rules force producers of kippers (smoked herrings) in the Isle of Man to pack them for shipping in a certain way when, in fact, no such rule exists in the EU, and the Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.

I think David was being deliberately, amusingly obtuse with his reference to 'haddock'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:24 AM

Apologies! It was Pete, not David, who referred to a haddock!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 09:21 AM

Thanks! There is a pun in there somewhere, I am sure.
Boris. Man alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 09:47 AM

no, genuine mistake. if i was going to lie to the nation i would always choose to illustrate my lies with a haddock. other fish lack authenticity, i find, or gravitas

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM

Gravitas? Isn't that Swedish smoked fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 10:38 AM

indeed. does not go well with turnips. but then, what does?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:04 AM

Easy ...... Haggis!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

Easy ...Haggis
Not so.
The rutabaga or swede differs from the turnip (Brassica rapa) in that it is typically larger and yellow-orange rather than white. ... In the north of England and Scotland, the larger, yellow rutabagas are called neeps or swede from folk etymology, while the smaller white turnips are called turnips.
While it is eaten all year round, haggis is particularly associated with Burns Night, when it is traditionally served with "neeps and tatties" (Scots: swede, or rutabaga and potatoes, boiled and mashed separately) and a "dram" (i.e. a glass of Scotch whisky).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:44 AM

The swede is also known as the Swedish turnip, Russian turnip or, in Scotland, just neeps. I think anyone but the most pedantic of nitpickers just spoiling for a fight understands what Raggy meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

The silliest thing about Johnson's antics with the kipper is that it perfectly illustrates one of the arguments the remainers have been making.

Our kipper supplier was based in the Isle of Man. To sell into the UK, since it is NOT a part of the UK, it has no choice whatsoever but to abide by the regulations the UK sets, unless it wants to cease trading with us. In precisely the same way, UK manufacturers will have no choice but to abide by the EU standards if they wish to sell to it. As far as that is concerned, it matters not a jot whether we are inside the EU or not. Of course, inside we can influence the regulations, whereas outside we cannot. In the UK we can, if we want, have different standards. But unless they are a strict superset of the EU ones, we can't sell to the EU.

A business could choose to have two manufacturing streams - an EU regulated one and an non-EU regulated one. Apart from the wastage arising from that, they would forever be having to prove they have not 'cross-contaminated' the streams, with all the costs that implies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 12:56 PM

The discussion in the by-ways of Parliament is getting more and more off the wall. According to the Independent "Senior Tories are considering changing *party rules* to stop Boris Johnson facing a no-confidence vote within the first year of being prime minister, by preventing a vote of no-confidence in the leader being called until they had been in office for at least 12 months."

The Conservative party can introduce any party rule changes it likes. A confidence vote in Parliament is about whether the PM is able to command a majority of the House or not, and is typically called by the opposition. It is not under the control of the Tory party. Now, if it wants to add to the gaiety of the situation by potentially having a Tory PM who is different to the Tory Party leader they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 02:23 PM

The County Court has ruled in favour of Darren Grimes’ appeal, exonerating him of the Electoral Commission’s kangaroo court imposed fine. The Commission’s argument for their egregious fine hinged on Darren’s accidental registering as an individual campaigner rather than a group. The Court has found that this is clearly disproportionate for ticking the wrong box…
Responding to the news, Darren said that “today’s verdict is a victory against the Remain Establishment which has done all it can to try and discredit the biggest electoral victory in this country’s history.”
While the Government spent almost half a million pounds fighting him, crowdfunding aided Darren’s appeal helping to raise over £90,000 to take the fight back to the Remain establishment. The average donation was just £30…

I wonder if any resignations will emanate from this clearly unfit for purpose quango?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:06 PM

"I wonder if any resignations will emanate from this clearly unfit for purpose quango?"
Grimes won his appeal on spending - no investigation has been carried out on the fact that hs organisation has links with Cambridge Analytica, who have been ipicated in Russian interference with the Brexit vote
It appears that some patriots among us are happy to see unregulated elections on vital issues which allow outside interference in British democracy
CAMBRIDGE ANALITICA AND 'VOTE LEAVE'
MORE DIRTY TRICKS
CHAIRMAN'S APOLOGY - "DESTROYED DATA"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:33 PM

It is a fairly standard reaction, but it is worth remembering.

The Electoral Commission said it was "disappointed".
"We will now review the full detail of the judgment before deciding on next steps, including any appeal," it said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 04:17 PM

Interesting article off the Beeb,concerning a possible General Election triggered by a no confidence vote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49004486

Could be an intriguing outcome after a recent yougov poll where Tories want Boris for the long run, not just Brexit and poor old compo barely qualifies as an also ran.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/07/19/tories-want-boris-long-run-not-just-brexit
and here is a little ditty for compo to warble while sitting in his cabbage patch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNBKKc8s0k

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 06:12 PM

For someone who declares zero confidence in forecasts, you seem quite keen on them for some things like election results.

I have no real idea how long Johnson would last as PM. It could be a long time, definitely. On the other hand if he finds himself obliged to accept an extension beyond October, his support could disappear overnight. Even without that, if he leaves with no deal and a fraction of the claimed problems come to pass in say the first six months, again he could find his support becomes thin.

For what it is worth, I am not with those who think everything will collapse the day after a no deal. It will take several months for the more serious issues to hit, though there could be a goodly number of problems in the first days or weeks. Providing we don't have severe food shortages or similar, any immediate problems will be dismissed as "teething troubles."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 02:23 AM

Seems we've moved on from the shady world of Cambridge Analitica and now that that particular brick aimed at those who with Britain to remain in one piece has fallen short of its mark
Anything rather than discuss the mess Brexit has made of both Britain and the Tory Party, it would appear
LIKE THIS ?
OR THIS ?
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 02:59 AM

Here are two key findings in the link Iains posted. Firstly about Boris


Shifting the focus from those who voted Conservative in 2017 to those who intend to vote Conservative if a new election were called yields very little difference: 60% want him[Johnson] running the Brexit process, 49% want him running the country, and 44% want him in charge of both.


Now about Corbyn:


Figures are rosier among those that say they would vote Labour in an upcoming General Election. Six in ten (62%) would want to see Corbyn running the country, and 47% want to see him in charge of Brexit, while 44% want him running both


We have from other surveys that there is a fairly equal four way split between parties, so the chances of the Conservatives or Labour winning the next election are too close to call at the moment, if those surveys are believed. The great hope for Conservatives is that replacing May with Boris will change this, but that is yet to be proven, especially if Boris does not leave the EU come October 31.

So what those two extracts say is that Johnston has 49% support for running the country after Brexit, and Corbyn 62%.

It doesn't really support the assertion 'poor old compo barely qualifies as an also ran', does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 03:08 AM

Sorry about the italics!

There is a fundamental flaw in the survey, by the way. When people are asked who they want running the country, they naturally think of a majority government, since that is the normal situation, and the question implicitly steers them in that direction. The answer to the question 'Which person could get most support from other parties if they were leader of a minority government?' might yield a very different answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:00 AM

For someone who declares zero confidence in forecasts, you seem quite keen on them for some things like election results.
Well you have to put them in some kind of context.
When opposing parties are polling within 10% of one another predicting outcomes is best left alone. I would suggest 10%is the intrinsic inaccuracy of polls on a sunny day.
It also depends upon the question being asked and where we stand in time relative to the outcome being polled.
To ask voting intentions for a general election today indicates nothing of significance. The same poll a week before may have more meaning.
How much accuracy you assign to a specific poll is dependent upon a variety of factors, but even when outcomes seem certain, surprises can occur. At the end of the day a poll is simply a forecast and is best regarded as having the same accuracy as a weather forecast.
A prime example would be the brexit party. It polls all over the place, seemingly impacted by the state of the tides and phases of the moon. It swept the board for the EU elections, but how likely would similar gains be in a General Election? It would be largely determined by the behaviour of the incoming PM(ie whether perceived as closet remainer or leaver) and by the perceived stance of Labour on Brexit.
The recent local elections showed huge defections from both major parties with a protest vote going to the libdems. The brexit party had no role in those elections and many MPs have defied their electorate on Brexit. Any no confidence vote forcing an election would be the equivalent of turkeys voting for christmas.
This will enable us to see our Mps in their true colours.
Will it be morality or Mammon wins the day?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:28 AM

I'm the EU elections the brexit party simply took all the votes off ukip. The major swing was away from Labour and Conservative to the pro-remain LibDem, Green and SNP parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:46 AM

I'm the EU elections the brexit party simply took all the votes off ukip. The major swing was away from Labour and Conservative to the pro-remain LibDem, Green and SNP parties.

That no doubt is why the brexit party became the biggest party within the EU.
Your conclusions suggest the title of another Carry On film, "Carry on deluding!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM

Last EU election results

Pro leave
Brexit Party. 29 seats gained
UKIP. 24 seats lost.

Not so much a massive gain as a change of name. Only 5 seats added in reality.

Pro remain
LibDem. 15 seats gained
Green. 4 seats gained.
SNP. 1 seat gained.

So, from the last EU election, the leave parties added 5 seats. The remain parties added 20.

Pretty difficult to spin that in any other way than more people swung to remain than to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

which way you swing does not change a majority and as I have said before, bums on seats is the only metric worth considering. Rather like leave won the Brexit referendum. Whether this was because the disenfranchised are not allowed to vote or a significant number of those enfranchised were too idle to vote is of no significance.
I suspect inhabiting a pink bubble must enforce a distorted reality where normal rules of mathematics are rewritten(perhaps with input from the abbacus) There is something sinister about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 08:14 AM

Bums on seats is a reasonable argument and one I was quite prepared to discuss. Why spoil it with "those enfranchised were too idle to vote" and "inhabiting a pink bubble must enforce a distorted reality"? It is that type of nonsense that gets you ignored and your posts deleted. Until you are prepared to be civil any discussion with you is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:50 PM

Bums on seats is the only game in town. As has been said innumerable times those who voted to leave the EU won the referendum. There have been a number of threads on Brexit, the total postings must be in the thousands. There is a hard core of around 7 on this forum that argue over and over and over that the result was somehow flawed and must be rerun. Brexiteers only have to point out the obvious THAT THEY WON. So why do you find this concept of majority wins so difficult to understand. For thousands of posts you have disputed the outcome. You are like recalcitrant children, or alternatively Canutes disputing celestial mechanics and still getting wet feet. You would all test the patience of a saint and that I am not.
I would also point out that it is your side arguing that 16year olds should have been allowed to vote and that the resultof the 2016 referendum is no longer valid because the oldies that voted have all died off and other equally as stupid arguments.
It is also abundantly clear that when logical argument has ripped the ground from under your feet you all resort to insults and then have the audacity to accuse me of being insulting.
Have you ever thought for one moment that sometimes your arguments are so flawed that mockery is the only response that makes you take notice

Your favourite argument is that you were not informed.
Well I was informed that leave won the referendum
I was informed that a huge majority of MPs voted for article 50
I was informed by the manifestos of both Labour and Tory in the 2017 election that we would leave the EU
I was informed by the PM innumerable times that we were leaving.
We are still in the EU
I was lied to on multiple occasions
You were told to tick a box- in or out All the information you required was on the ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:58 PM

Empty rubbish, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM

So the 19 year old Steven Edginton tells us he gave the Darroch diplomatic telegrams to Isobel Oakeshott and wants "to be absolutely clear: the leak of Sir Kim's cables had absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit party."

All very interesting, but most people thought it was a Brexiteer plot, which is not the same as a Brexit Party plot. And you have a very solid Brexiteer background - which of course you are quite entitled to - which fits that possibility:


Edginton worked initially for the political website Westmonster, founded by the Brexit-backer Arron Banks, before periods as a digital strategist at the Taxpayers’ Alliance and Leave Means Leave campaign. Since April he has been employed by the Brexit party, organising its social media feeds.

(Each of these is a strongly pro-Brexit group, for those who are not aware of it: Taxpayer's Alliance sounds neutral, but it is not.)

But all in all, you are pretty irrelevant, Steven Edginton. You may have been an intermediary and liable to some charges because of that, but you are not the source of the leak, which is what is of concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 02:38 AM

The brexit party is not the biggest party within the EU, that is EPP, closely followed by S&D.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 03:45 AM

It is a fact that more people voted to leave than reemain. Just as in 1974 more people voted to remain than leave. What is in dispute is whether it is "the will of the people" when only 17 million of the 65 million that inhabit these isles thought leaving the EU was a good idea. And of those many have now changed their minds. It is also disputed that leaving the EU is wise. Not just by "the people" but by every single economic and commercial organisation. What people want is not necessarily good for them!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:07 AM

What ‘The will of the people’ was three years ago may not be ‘The will of the people’ now. Only a blind, brainwashed fool would try to use a decision made three years ago in 2016, on the basis of the votes of a minority of the electorate, to influence policy decisions being made in 2019.

The EU Referendum was advisory only and the government is not, and has never been, required to be directed by its result - that fact was set out in the documentation of the EU Referendum Bill 2015. The sensible course of action now is to revoke A50, and for a genuinely cross-party team of MPs to be set up to investigate and report on what the UK’s future steps should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:31 AM

The facts are even simpler

The majority of economists and business leaders, those dedicated to knowing what is best for the nation, are in agreement that leaving the EU is a bad thing. The majority of arguments put by those dedicated to leaving the EU have proven to be false.

Given those facts I shall do my utmost to help those wishing to do the right thing for the nation as opposed to those doing the right thing for their own political cnareers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 06:30 AM

The facts still remain as stated. The majority of those in the know believe that leaving the EU would be a very costly mistake while most of the arguments put up by those who want to leave are false. Both those facts have been proven over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 08:13 AM

Boris’s dream BrexShit...

‘Managed’ No-Deal BrexShit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 09:34 AM

0.2 or 0.5 does not equate to a great deal. As I indicated earlier Irelands economy grew by over 8% last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM

The facts still remain as stated. Try The Financial Times, Parliament Magazine and The Independent to name but three. Plenty more where they came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 01:58 PM

Interesting to read tha one of the   Stars of Brexit got beaten up in prison for"acting like a personality"
Rough justice, maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 05:27 PM

Ireland may well have problems "down the road"

Chances are they will pale into insignificance next to those of the UK..... and they furthermore will have the EU to help them out which the UK will not have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 10:41 AM

Are condolences in order? I just read about Boris being definitely in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 05:32 PM

Yes, Mrrzy, we do now have Mr Johnson to deal with. It is very unclear what happens now, but we will hear tomorrow and over the next few days the cabinet appointments, which will be a much better guide to the future than his election. Consistency and attention are not his strong points, but it is likely a lot of the appointments will be people who are much more fixed in their view, it is likely that most of the authors of "Britannia Unchained" will end up with cabinet roles. That book gives a good indication of the approach they favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:26 AM

As I feared, we looks very much as if Boris Johnson is going to play being the entertainer with quips and jollying everyone along while at the next level all the authors of 'Britannia Unchained" have cabinet posts, including some regarded as the top jobs, and they will undoubtedly be pushing to make the ideas of that book the policy.

I advise people to try to borrow a copy and read it, as I did. I am reluctant to give them the royalties...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 05:27 AM

Brexit is now a transatlantic issue
Nancy Pelosi had declared that if Britain's crashing out of Europe in any way harms the Belfast Agreement they will block any Trade Deal between Britain and the US
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 07:22 AM

According to the Guardian

"There is a growing belief in Brusselsbthat Johnson has no intention of negotiating with the EU, but is instead driving forward with a no-deal exit with the understanding that parliament will block him and it will be necessary to call a general election.

While the cry from the wings has been "Parliament will block no deal" for a long time, that ain't necessarily so. It is by no means impossible that Parliament is unable to, leaving Johnson to call an unforced election or to struggle on trying to address any no deal issues arising with an incredibly thin majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 08:01 AM

Think of it in terms of chess moves. Whether Boris intends to negotiate or not is immaterial. The EU has said it will not negotiate. If Boris does not ask for an extension before the 31st of October we are out of the EU. That is already set in law.

To change that law, Parliament has to pass some sort of new legislation. If it looks like that is about to happen Boris can then threaten a General Election. Members may decide to defy the threat and an election is called. October 31st passes and we leave the EU by default, or Parliamentary Members don't create new legislation and again October 31st passes and we leave the EU by default.

There may well be other possible moves like a vote of no confidence, but that would result in a General Election and October 31st would pass with the same result. All Boris has to do is dance between, or fend off, the various options and we will be out. Hooray!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 08:22 AM

"The EU has said it will not negotiate"
The EU has already negotiated and Britain has rejected what it has come up with
Britain represents its own opinions (it's a moot point whether they are in Briain's interests) which, is some cases, adversely affects those of other countries - Ireland being the most obvious.
The consequences of a wrong decision should be obvious to all, yet Johnson declares that the backstop has to go
That is not negotiable
A call for leaving Europe, given the facts that are now available, is mindless nationalism with deadly consequences
You are the last person to be in the position to accuse others of refusing to negotiate Stanron
When have you ever been prepared to even discuss your own pronouncements - not in my recollection
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 08:37 AM

Mark Steel in The Independent - a very good summation of the political cess-pit which 64,000 mostly male, mostly old, mostly rich fellow-citizens have dropped the other 64 million into.

One of the most telling sections in the piece is...

”It seems Brexit is not just driven by a desire to leave the European Union, but by people who want to scrap all regulations, cut taxes for the wealthiest and blame everything that goes wrong on foreign lands and the funny people who come from there. And leaving the EU is just one part of that project.”

And the dozy, brainwashed Leave-voters will still think they’re the clever ones....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 08:59 AM

Here is a bit of the PMs speech:

And that is why I believe that if we bend our sinews to the task now, there is every chance that in 2050, when I fully intend to be around, though not necessarily in this job, we will look back on this period, this extraordinary period, as the beginning of a new golden age for our United Kingdom

Mark that timescale. For someone starting work today, there is "every chance" that things are good by the time they are approaching retirement age (assuming such a thing still exists.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 09:03 AM

Of course things could be better before that, I understand. Neither he nor I are suggestng a big switch is thrown in 2050; improvements would be gradual. But he chose not to say 2040. He chose not to say 2030...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "The EU has said it will not negotiate"
The EU has already negotiated and Britain has rejected what it has come up with
Britain represents its own opinions (it's a moot point whether they are in Briain's interests) which, is some cases, adversely affects those of other countries - Ireland being the most obvious.
The consequences of a wrong decision should be obvious to all, yet Johnson declares that the backstop has to go
That is not negotiable
A call for leaving Europe, given the facts that are now available, is mindless nationalism with deadly consequences
You are the last person to be in the position to accuse others of refusing to negotiate Stanron
When have you ever been prepared to even discuss your own pronouncements - not in my recollection
JIm Carroll

It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated. The leaving arrangement has been rejected by Parliament three times. Each time the reason given was the backstop. Each time the EU refused to renegotiate. It still says it will not renegotiate. I think it is fair to say they will not, in the future, renegotiate.

As for 'mindless nationalism', a standard accusation of the communist theology as I recall, you might be in trouble there because the EU sees itself as becoming one nation. Then what will you do?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:02 AM

”As for 'mindless nationalism', a standard accusation of the communist theology as I recall, you might be in trouble there because the EU sees itself as becoming one nation.”

You mean, a bit like The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that we’ve been a part of for the past ninety-seven years - a number of different countries, each with its own language and customs, joined in a socio-economic group and taking advantage of the benefits of centralised government with limited devolution, trading as a bloc, having the same currency, the same tax-structure, unlimited movement of goods and people intra-bloc, etc., etc?

The problem with that is.....what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

No problem with it whatsoever, BWM. The shit will hit the fan when Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU and Ireland becomes reunited and also in the EU. At that point in time England, and possibly Wales, become stuck between major trading powers with no chance whatsoever of rejoining the EU. I wonder who our resident brexiteers will prefer to get in bed with? The USA, China or Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated


Certainly it could be argued. Almost anything can. People argue the world is flat, you know. But whether you agree with it or not, the mere existence of a Withdrawal Agreement is evidence that the EU negotiated. That the £39billion settlement (now £33billion) was originally higher is evidence that the EU negotiated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:14 AM

"It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated."
It could, of course, but it wouldn't be true
The E.U. has bent over backwards to accommodate Britain's position, but has fallen short of sacrificing the interests of it's member nations, which, as a resident of one of them, am eternally grateful
You refer to the E.U. as a single entity as if it was one State - it isn't, it represents 28, Britain being only one of them
Ireland stands to lose most immediately in terms of the risk of re-establishing a hard border
I have seen little understanding of that from your side of the table
Brexit was pushed through on the basis of a vote of a minority of the British people, the majority of those who did vote was so small as to have bitterly divided the population.
The dogged refusal of the Government to re-run the referendum makes it highly probable that Brexit will take place against the majority of the people's wishes, given what hes been revealed of the consequences of leaving
It has become a lemming-march of English nationalists who wish to get out - bugger the consequences - even many of those who put their money into leaving have now pulled out and invested elsewhere.
We know that the North of Ireland and Scotland voted to stay

There is no way whatever that the EU will ever become one nation - Greece, Germany, France, Italy, with their histories and relationships...... are you out of your mind
Personally, as an Internationalist, I don't give a toss what a country calls itself if it stops us blowing each other up - I've enjoyed a life of travelling to different places and benefited greatly from living in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world - you don't have to be swamped by other cultures because you choose to share them

I would go look up the term "theology" if I were you - communism has no sky fairies looking down on it
I spent decades of my life having my nose rubbed in English nationalism - certainly long enough to be immunised from it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:41 AM

One of life's pleasing peculiarities is that the committed communist views the theoretical principles of his politics with the same fervour that the religious zealot worships his God. The fact that the true communist acknowledges no God just makes it better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:54 AM

Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who doesn’t support Brexit is a ‘communist’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 11:58 AM

So tell me Stanron, just how will I, and others like me, be better off once we leave the EU.

I've have asked this question scores of time and no-one, but no-one has felt able to answer me.

If you had some positives to put forward I may well be able to support the notion but as yet I know of none.

So over to you Stanron, come up with some ideas for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

"One of life's pleasing peculiarities is that the committed communist views the theoretical principles of his politics with the same fervour that the religious zealot worships his God"
Communism never existed as a system - it was an aim - that equality of opportunity should be available to all
That wasn't a 'religion' it was an ideal well worth struggling for
No promise of paradise after death, just an aim to better the lot of mankind - and to a degree, it worked-

It turned an Empire made up largely of feudal and semi feudal States into a modern contender on the world stage within five decades, despite having started in a destructive war of attrition, undergoing a revolution, a civil war supported by 14 invading foreign powers, another world conflict in which led to the slaughter of more people than any other nation on the planet... and a benevolent dictator who ended up undermining the ideals of the system being aimed for
Where a distorted Socialist State produced Stalin, Western European Industrial Capitalism produced Hitler.

The proof of the pudding lies in the eating, 'Free Russia' is now the second greatest threat to world peace today (next to Trump's U.S.) and is the most unequal State in modern Europe.
Some of the 'former communist countries' are rapidly reverting to fascist States - the consequences for this can be seen by lookign at what happened in former Yugoslavia once Tito's velvet grip was eased.

None of this has anything to do with the E.U. of course, which is a group of States living under a dying system and trying to make the best of things until they find something better - it is a short-term measure England (not Britain) has never really lost its Empire mentality of leeching off the poorer nations and is, with the help of the other rich and powerful nations, turning the population of the Third World into Itinerants and refugees
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 12:45 PM

"One of life's pleasing peculiarities is that the committed communist views the theoretical principles of his politics with the same fervour that the religious zealot worships his God

That is pretty much a description of every kind of zealot, including those Brexiteers who are unconcerned if the UK splits up, or if we 'may have short term' disadvantages in the hope of something better long term - while offering no evidence that hope will be fulfilled.

I wouldn't particularly describe it as pleasing, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

To Backwoodsman

No I'm referring to people who use terms like 'mindless nationalsm' and little Englander'.

To Raggytash

I've done that at least twice before. Look it up.

To Jim Carroll

Thanks for the laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:17 PM

"Thanks for the laugh."
Thanks for your comprehensive rebuttal - as usual
It appears to be what passes for debate in your world
I won't bother asking you to elucidate

It needs to be remembered that a watered down form of socialism rebuilty Britain after a devastating world war despite the determined opposition of your lot when each reform was introduced - the health service, housing for all and the sharing of the national wealth for the good of all rather than profit
Maggie turned homes into commodities, we lost our industries eventually because there was no profit in them - only the wealthy can now afford higher education - and our National Health Service is hanging by a thread (I seem to remember Donald Trump offered to buy it and there are many among you who would happily sell it to him)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:35 PM

No Stanron, you have not. FULL STOP.

On no occasion have you, or any others of the Brexiteers, told me and others like me, how we will be better off.

Gaining control of our borders is meaningless if it only excludes Europeans so we can forget that. Much of our overwhelmingly needed immigration does not come from Europe, but we cannot function without it. It is vital to the wellbeing of our country.

Regaining our "sovereignty' we never lost it.

Taking back control? The likes of you and I never had any.

So Stanron tell me just how I will be better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM

Added to which, "taking back control" is neutral in itself. If the Parliament has more control it can be beneficial or otherwise depending on how the government of the day chooses to use it. Remember that any Tory who demands 'taking back control' is demanding Corbyn/Labour has more control of their lives, not just the Conservatives. And similarly any Labour leaving is insisting Tories should have more control of their lives.

You get the whole package, for good or ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

Most recently answered 8 July 19:
Some details have been given many times, but always dismissed by those who asked for the details. So it becomes somewhat pointless to try again, however:
Reduced food prices for food bought from around the world, where we currently have EU imposed tariffs designed to protect the farming communities on mainland Europe
Control of our own fishing waters, rather than allowing the EU to decide on fishing quotas.
The ability to control the number of migrants coming from the EU.
Those are three of the benefits mentioned many times, but doubtless they will be ignored again.

and although the points were generally disputed, it would be nice if you would stop your continual insistence that you have never been answered.
You even responded to the above discussion, so can't say that you didn't see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM

mudcat mates - any chance you can put this one to a tidyish closure,

and start a new "Brexit #4" thread from scratch...

A refresh might be timely in this new era post Boris 'elected' as PM...

Besides which, this one takes too long for my overheating straining PC to open...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:08 PM

..and my 'not state of the art' smart phones and tablets just give up,
and refuse to load it at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

"and although the points were generally disputed"

The disputes came from almost every source.

From Government forecasts, the banking and finance industries, the CBI, almost every "captain of Industry".

So I ask again what do YOU know about Brexit that will be beneficial to me, my son an my Grandchildren and to many,many other people like me.

What do you know that all these other people and bodies are missing.

Tell us in CLEAR and UNCERTAIN terms how we will be better off

IF you can do that I may support your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:21 PM

punkfolkrocker wrote: ..and my 'not state of the art' smart phones and tablets just give up,
and refuse to load it at all...

Under the 'Messages' heading, where the number of replies is given, long threads have a letter 'd' after the number. Click on the letter 'd' and you get just one page of the latest replies. So far this thread has 60 pages so loading just one page will be a lot quicker.

The downside is that the latest post is at the top so you have to find the last post you read and then scroll up. When I used to do it I always acrolled in the wrong direction. There may be a way to turn in upside down but I don't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

Nigel
NO DEAL BREXIT COULD LEAD TO 45% FOOD PRICE INCREASE
Future of FISHING UNCERTAIN
As far as immigration is concerned, many of us believe Britain is morally obliged to take in refugees and immigrants from countries we trade with who are paying slave-level wages in order to sell abroad
Refusing to do so is to contribute to a re-introduction of a form of slavery
You may believe that to be "an advantage"
As far the refugees seeking asylum in Britain - most of them are fleeing from wars and conditions we have helped create
That is debasing Britain, not assisting it
THE HUMAN COST OF OUR REFUGEE POLICIES

Tell us again
What are the advantages Brexit has to offer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM

No elucidation Staron
No surprise there
My points remain unchallenged
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:36 PM

Raggytash wrote: The disputes came from almost every source.

From Government forecasts, the banking and finance industries, the CBI, almost every "captain of Industry".

Your problem is you have read or heard forcasts that said 'could' and, in your desire for bad news have substituted the word 'will'.

If you go back to the source material, and not the reinterpretations of others, you may be able to see that each 'could' has a possible 'could not' or a possible opposite. They were usually saying something like "It could be good and it could be bad. We don't really know."

You have selectively edited this to be all bad news. Lighten up. It will be fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 02:50 PM

It could be good and it could be bad. We don't really know.

So you are telling us you voted for something without knowing if it was a good or bad thing? And expect us to "Lighten up. It will be fine."

If ifs and ands were pots and pans not only would there be no work for tickets but your arguments would make sense. Why on earth anyone would take a leap in the dark with the future of an entire nation is beyond me I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 03:00 PM

Stan - thanks for helping,
but I'm already aware of that work around from other previous epic threads...

As you point out, it's not ideal for trying to join in on an already dauntingly over lengthy thread.


.. and my mobile devices / wireless connection even refuse to play ball with that option...

Thanks again anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 03:19 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Why on earth anyone would take a leap in the dark with the future of an entire nation is beyond me I'm afraid.

As I said earlier I have given my reasons and others have given theirs. I know you won't accept any of them but you could find examples in history. Actually I'm sure I could find them but, of course that's not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:20 PM

NO DEAL BREXIT COULD LEAD TO 45% FOOD PRICE INCREASE or it could be 25% decrease
Future of FISHING UNCERTAIN without internationally agreed quotas and spawning grounds Fishing is not so much uncertain as defunct

As far the refugees seeking asylum in Britain - most of them have made landfall in other countries and thus are economic migrants. Treatment of refugees is subject to UNCR convention of 1951 and the EU Dublin Agreement. In July 2017, the European Court of Justice upheld the Dublin Regulation, declaring that it still stands despite the high influx of 2015, giving EU member states the right to deport migrants to the first country of entry to the EU.
One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. Another aim is to reduce the number of "orbiting" asylum seekers, who are shuttled from member state to member state. The country in which the asylum seeker first applies for asylum is responsible for either accepting or rejecting the claim, and the seeker may not restart the process in another jurisdiction. This has been clarified several times on this forum yet you still misrepresent it so you can blame the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 04:24 PM

"It could be argued that the EU has never negotiated."

Where have you been for the last three years?

"The leaving arrangement has been rejected by Parliament three times. Each time the reason given was the backstop. Each time the EU refused to renegotiate. It still says it will not renegotiate. I think it is fair to say they will not, in the future, renegotiate."

The backstop is not negotiable. Either we have a backstop or we jeopardise trade between us and Ireland and risk flare-ups at the border. You can't have a bit of a backstop or a time-limited backstop. Use your brain on that one. The irony is that, given constructive cooperation in negotiating a trade deal, there'd never be any need for the bloody thing at all.   

"As for 'mindless nationalism', a standard accusation of the communist theology as I recall, you might be in trouble there because the EU sees itself as becoming one nation. Then what will you do?"

Typical brexiteer bullshit. How many times do I have to say this. The EU comprises 28 nations, each of which is fiercely nationalistic and jealous of its own distinctive identity. The occasional oddball who's lost his head might still declare that pie-in-the-sky aspiration, but it can't happen. EU countries all, to a greater or lesser extent, have the power of veto over changes they see as undesirable. A one-nation Europe can never, ever happen. Get honest, will you?

Some getting-in-proportion context: our financial dealings with the EU constitute one percent of our GDP. The EU has no control over our domestic laws. In the last three decades the UK has agreed without demur to 95% of new EU laws and regulations, has abstained on about 2% and disagreed with 3%. The vast majority of new EU regulations are agreed by consensus without going to a vote. No EU law or regulation is ever imposed by unelected bureaucrats. The UK, as one of the leading EU nations, has considerable powers of veto. There is no European army because the UK has said no, and there never will be as long as we remain members.

I could go on. But why let facts get in the way of sacred ideology, Stan?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:57 AM

Your problem is you have read or heard forcasts that said 'could' and, in your desire for bad news have substituted the word 'will'.

If you go back to the source material, and not the reinterpretations of others, you may be able to see that each 'could' has a possible 'could not' or a possible opposite. They were usually saying something like "It could be good and it could be bad. We don't really know."

There is an American sitcom called 'Young Sheldon' that dealt with this, thought they were talking about the existence of God. As best I remember the relevant sentences were like this:


"You ae confusing possibilities with probabilities. It is possible that when I go home there is a million dollars lying on my bed. It is also possible there isn't. In what world are they 50-50?"

In that example, of course "we don't really know" either. But using all the information and experience we have, we know which is more likely. And it is the same with the forecasts of the impact of no-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 03:41 AM

"One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. "
So - what's your point ???
Ireland is run by people who share many values and differences to human suffering that put profit before people as do those running Britain
The Irish Government's opening the door to Vulture Capitalism, which has allowed firms like Goldman Sachs to buy up rented property and evict the tenants in order to gentrify and resell it for profit has led to a rapidly increasing homelessness problem
The difference in Ireland is that we have people prepared to take to the streets on behalf of the homeless and the less well off
I am constantly moved by the young people outside the GPO in O'Connell Street, permanently drawing attention to the problem
Would that the British Students return to their fondly remembered past protests
Of course, students in Britain have their own escalating problems thanks to higher education being a commodity to be bought rather than a natural right for all.

The more democratic P.R. voting system has prevented the worst excesses, but Ireland is suffering from a decaying capitalism, as is the rest of the world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:03 AM

A no deal brexit could vastly increase the prices of the quality continental produce on which we rely. It isn't clear what it will do to availability either. Jo just don't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 05:22 AM

According to the front-page headlines in 'The Times' this morning, Bonkers Boris is proposing to spend £2Bn of the taxpayers money in an effort to win Labour voters to supporting him in the 'Leave- voting heartland.
I wonder if this will be declared as an election expense !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

Well it’s good to see that Jacob (“Call Me Jake”) Rich-Mong is getting down to dealing with the really important issues in his new job.

His next move will probably be to push the Trade Secretary to start negotiations to re-open trade with Cathay, Abyssinia, and Mesopotamia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 06:54 AM

I was especially taken with the instruction to use imperial units (his bolding).

Not always that easy. Temperatures, for example. Neither Fahrenheit nor Centigrade/Celsius is am imperial measurement. The Réaumur scale was approved in Russia by the Tzars, so I suppose you could call that imperial, but it is probably not what he means.

But of course the scientific scale is °K, named after Baron Kelvin, who was Irish-Scottish. I suppose we will all have to switch to that.   " By 'eck, its going to be hot - they are predicting 250°! I think you will find that is quite cold really."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 07:22 AM

And it seems Rees-Mogg is proving an inspiration. As reported in the Yorkshire Post:

The new Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has imposed a two page limit on information sent to him about the management of Britain’s railways.

In an internal email, seen by The Yorkshire Post, contributors to the Department’s Rail Group are also warned that Mr Shapps will “pay attention to the font sizes and margins” of any documents he receives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 07:23 AM

Looks like the U.K., under Boris The Saviour, has nailed it! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that. I would like positive grounds for me to change my position.

Unicorns, fairies and elves just don't cut it in my world, so provide some positives or better still join the campaign to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 10:52 AM

So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that. I would like positive grounds for me to change my position.

Unicorns, fairies and elves just don't cut it in my world, so provide some positives or better still join the campaign to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

leftist twaddle- encourage
Facts = Delete

The leftard wonderland.
ain't life wonderful?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:00 PM

More intellectual gems from our resident fundamentalist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

I was a tad surprised yesterday Iains when you stated that you back up your statements with links.

The only links I can recall are to the Guido website and he, in particular, deals entirely in "soundbites" and he seldom, if ever, provides links.

I have asked you on numerous occasions to use quotation marks when you use someone else's words, you never do so.

I have also requested on numerous occasions that you provide links to your "quotes" I cannot recall ONE occasion when you have done so.

May I suggest that you put your own house in order. You may find that is not only more acceptable to other posters but also to the Moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

Raggytash wrote: So Stanron, you want us to accept your decision which you admit you have no grounds on which to base it and to ignore almost every expert in numerous fields of banking, fiance, medicine, industry and law.

For some reason I am not comfortable with that.

Well let's see, I'm going to give you A+ for creative imagination and Z- for accuracy.

I would not be comfortable with your first sentence either, but I think on different grounds. The construction is awful and the content is a mixture of pure imagination and poor comprehension.

Never mind, it may never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

pink unicorns, candyfloss, rainbows...

Here is a gem from Guido:


https://order-order.com/2019/07/27/commentariat-versus-reality/

A perfect summary of fact versus waycism accusations.

Despite all the protestation of the left:
Trump is the President
Bojo is the PM
and Bob Wills is still the King

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:04 PM

The king is Elvis and you are so obviously someone's puppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 19 - 04:13 PM

Pinocchio maybe, and I'd wager that, in view of your dishonesty, your nose is at least a foot long (do you use it as a rule?) Howzat, IP flitter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM

Howzat, IP flitter?
You made the allegation rather more forcefully in a recent post saying you had proof I was using multiple IP addresses.
The only proof of your unfounded allegation that I am using multiple IP addresses would be by you having access to the mudcat servers. That is not something you can do, only moderators have this facility.

Now on a totally separate matter I did have communication with Mudcat recently about a post allegedly from my IP address that I am confident I did not author. Those communications independently verified a consistent IP address that I was using.(This covered a period of several months where an update of firefox deleted my cookies each time I shut my computer down,thus there were times where inadvertently I would be posting as a guest above the line, unless I reset my cookie)

So this leads me to conclude you are but a troublemaking liar, and by your lies you are trying to intimate that at least one moderator is colluding with you by supplying data about a mudcat member that you could not independently access

So Shaw, you have a little explaining to do, to all of us

I trust the moderators will suitably chastise you for impugning their integrity and not simply delete this email.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:44 AM

I confess to being a serial IP flipper. Every time I use my mobile phone on wifi on a different cafe, hotel or otherwise out and about it will have a different IP address. Because that is how the Internet works.

Now can we talk about Brexit? Gove is saying the government is now assuming a no deal which is a shade different to one chance on a million a few days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM

It seems to me this thread has been treading water for some time
The two genuine Brexiteers here seem to not want to comment on what is happening to Britain for fear of incriminating themselves, and this clown offers nothing (as is his wont) and is intent in sabotaging any attempt to seriously discuss what is, in fact a serious situation.
Anybody who has insulted and maligned the decisions and integrity of the Mods, accusing them of censorship and bias, as often as he has recently, and then makes the statement he just has, should not be allowed to take up space here
WE are behaving like a bunch of indulgent adults looking on fondly while a disturbed child wrecks the place
I suggest we either move on and discuss the subject or stop taking up space on this forum
Tolerating this shit is allowing us to sink to this guys level
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:05 AM

"Now can we talk about Brexit? "
Amen to that
Sorry Mac - cross posted
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:18 AM

FYI I use the same phone tethered to my laptop in the same place for the last three years.
Stop making malicious allegations and we can get back to brexit
Simples!

A shame you do not get on your collective high horse when the cabal is hijacking threads and babbling on about wine, weeds and wandering.
Oh but I forgot lefties are incapable of offending ! What a shower.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:42 AM

Ok, on Brexit. Javid has said today (or maybe yesterday)

Under my leadership, the Treasury will have new priorities and will play its full role in helping to deliver Brexit,” he said. “In my first day in office as chancellor, I tasked officials to urgently identify where more money needs to be invested to get Britain fully ready to leave on October 31 – deal or no deal.”

He added that he planned to fund 500 new Border Force officers and look at new infrastructure around the country’s ports to minimise congestion and ensure goods could flow.

How many poor managers have I heard say things like this throughout my lifetime, I wonder. So focused on money they can't think of anything else. So he makes money available. Now you have to write and negotiate contracts. The contractors may have to recruit. The infrastructure required has to be assessed and designed. Any goods required have to be ordered, manufactured and then assembled. All this takes time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 04:43 AM

"Oh but I forgot lefties are incapable of offending ! What a shower."
Point proven, I think, for which, mant thanks
Let' move on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:11 AM

to get Britain fully ready to leave on October 31 – deal or no deal.

Perhaps we need our Brexiteers to flesh that out a bit. I accept Britain could leave on Oct 31, whatever state we are in. I accept the politicians can be fully committed to do so.

Do you think that is all that is needed to say 'Britain is fully ready to leave on October 31"? That there is no distinction to be made between willingness and readiness?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:30 AM

The headlines in this morning's Sunday Times are reminiscent of the daily reports during WW2 - terms like "war footing", "war cabinet" and Brexit has to be delivered "at any price" (a term borrowed from Malcolm X)
A strange photo shows Boris (wrote "boorish" by mistake") in conversation with a colleague, with a somewhat scruffily dressed feller leaning on the wall, in a logoed tee shirt and slacks who is identified as "having been especially appointed to deliver Brexit - maybe he is a Parcelforce' employee !!
This is obviously a Prime Minister with his hand firmly on the pulse of the nation's needs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 05:47 AM

I have not seen the photo, but by the sound of it that is Dominic Cummings, credited with creating the "take back control' slogan and the bus quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 06:01 AM

"Dominic Cummings,"
That's the feller
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM

From the superb musician and activist, Joe Solo, on FB today. His FB post permits ‘Sharing’ so I’m reproducing his piece here in good faith because I believe that, no matter which side of the Brexit argument anyone stands on, he raises a point which should be very important to everyone who believes in democracy...

”So this morning it's not police or trains, but back to Brexit.

Gove writes in the Sunday Times that the new government is now assuming a No Deal scenario and is working 24/7 to that end.

And in order to overcome the arithmetic against that in the House, they are prepared to suspend parliament.

Many on the Leave side will applaud that.

There will be weary Remain voters too who just want the damn thing done so we can all move on, who will grudgingly admit it seems a satisfactory means to an end as a one off solution to a one off problem.

Yet quite aside from the glaring irony of suspending UK democracy in order to facilitate the outcome of a democratic vote, once a government has suspended democracy for one reason, what is to stop them doing it for the next, and the next?

In a country divided, with parliament in stasis, with no clear numerical majority for seemingly anything at all, wouldn't it seem like a natural solution in the 'national interest' in such a time of crisis, when a 'dynamic response' is required to a 'rapidly changing situation'?

I'm using those phrases because so would they. Whether you believe a No Deal Brexit is the best outcome, or whether you believe it would be catastrophic, I don't care. We've read it all before. What I'm trying to say is that whatever you believe, the world post 31st October will throw up challenges unprecedented in our history, and a government as right wing as this one will seek to take advantage of the ensuing confusion to exploit that for their own ends. So if the resulting changes are not properly scrutinized by due process in parliament, because democracy is repeatedly suspended in order to 'get things done', what will we have become?

Because alarmist as that may sound, this is how it happens.

Proroguing parliament is a blueprint for dictatorship.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:12 AM

And, once that precident is set, it is set for all governments. It is not just the Brexit issue, it is everything, left wing or right wing, an alt right government or an alt left one. Anyone who cares about democracy should be very concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:15 AM

Indeed they should, DMcG. We live in dangerous times, very dangerous times indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:17 AM

The above ia confirmed by today's News
The Government is now set on a course for a no deal Brexit, whatever the consequences
I have little doubt that, when the inevitable happens and Britain's future goes into a tail-spin
the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of the British People "nuffin' to do with us guv - we were only doing what you asked us to do"
This has been a massive con trick by bigots and pseudo patriots from start to finish
It's about time we all realised that and stop blaming those who were conned
Some of us here (me included) were naive enough to believe this could never happen
Coincidentally, we spoke to Peggy Seeger last week who told us that many of the American people and Trump
We dropped our guard and the rats crawled in
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:30 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: And in order to overcome the arithmetic against that in the House, they are prepared to suspend parliament.

Consider the argument that Parliament would be suspending democracy by preventing the implementation of current legislation. Preventing Parliament from doing this would be implementing democracy.

Consider the argument that you are looking at it the wrong way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:31 AM

the blame will be laid firmly at the feet of the British People "nuffin' to do with us guv - we were only doing what you asked us to do"

I doubt it. It will be blamed on the EU, and those who asked them not to do it. I would like to see some of our Brexiteers saying "We take all responsibility for this, good or ill. We won't blame the EU, or May, or the judges or anyone else. We decided and insisted on this, knowing all the predictions and the EU's likely stance. We are willing to accept anything arising. It is no-one else's fault."

I don't expect to hear it, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:47 AM

Congratulations to Gavin Barwell on his peerage, very well deserved, a very hard working man indeed. Lives 5 minutes drive away!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 08:57 AM

Face like a slapped arse. Obnoxious little cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:05 AM

”Backwoodsman wrote: And in order to overcome the arithmetic against that in the House, they are prepared to suspend parliament.”

Wrong. Backwoodsman did not write that at all. It was quoted from a piece elsewhere, written by someone else.

Attention to detail - always important.

”Consider the argument that Parliament would be suspending democracy by preventing the implementation of current legislation. Preventing Parliament from doing this would be implementing democracy.

Consider the argument that you are looking at it the wrong way round.”

Wrong again. The basis of our Parliamentary Democracy is that Parliament, and Parliament alone, can pass legislation, and Parliament, and Parliament alone, has the power to revoke legislation. Look it up.

I repeat - attention to detail, always important.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM

It’s called ‘The Sovereignty of Parliament’ - something you Brexit-Bumpkins claim to be fighting to ‘reclaim’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:19 AM

Your interpretation of democracy is a long way from mine, Stanron. Several things:

This country enjoys Parliamentary democracy. The referendum should never have been called.

The referendum was not binding on the government, and no amount of a Tory prime minister's parroting that he would take it as binding/an instruction/a mandate from the people could make it binding. The binding claim was unconstitutional.

We were lied to by Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson both about the amount of our contribution to the EU and about what it could be used for if we refused to pay it.

We were lied to by Nigel Farage, who provided a racist message about uncontrolled immigration by posing in front of a poster showing a queue of non-white refugees who had nothing to do with immigration into this country.

We were fearmongered to death by the remain campaign about a brexit future, the cheerleader of which was your shrill and greasy little man, Mr We're-all-in-it-together- austerity-man, the git who now edits the Evening Standard.

We were lied to about how easy it would be to forge dozens of new trade deals.

The Irish border issue was de-emphasised during tbe campaign in a most dishonest way, and look where we are now with that.

38% of the electorate voted leave. The leave vote was skewed by the votes of older people who will be unaffected by brexit.

We have another vote to choose a government every few years, a move that is regarded as the bastion of democracy. Every few years we are afforded that rethink. Yet you would deny the people of this country a rethink about what is arguably a far more critical and certainly a far more permanent sea change in this country's future. I'll tell you what, Stanron. You're no democrat. If you thought you'd definitely win a second vote you'd be all for it. You'd jump at it. But you're afraid that you wouldn't win, so you oppose it. For no other reason. You wouldn't recognise democracy if it jumped up and bit you on the family jewels. Get honest, why don't you.

And I don't even bloody want another referendum. I don't want any bloody referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 09:44 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Your interpretation of democracy is a long way from mine

At last! Something we can agree with.

Steve Shaw wrote: This country enjoys Parliamentary democracy. The referendum should never have been called.

Do you realise that your sentence contradicts itself? The same for the next sentence.

Steve Shaw wrote: We were lied to by Nigel Farage, who provided a racist message about uncontrolled immigration by posing in front of a poster showing a queue of non-white refugees who had nothing to do with immigration into this country.

There were no more lies from leavers than there were from remainers.

Steve Shaw wrote: We were fearmongered to death by the remain campaign about a brexit future, the cheerleader of which was your shrill and greasy little man, Mr We're-all-in-it-together- austerity-man, the git who now edits the Evening Standard.

What's that all about?

Steve Shaw wrote: We were lied to about how easy it would be to forge dozens of new trade deals.

Difficult to prove or disprove as we are still part of the EU we are not yet able to complete any deals.

Steve Shaw wrote: The Irish border issue was de-emphasised during tbe campaign in a most dishonest way, and look where we are now with that.

The Irish border is a complete red herring. We are currently 100% compliant with all European law. On the day we leave we will be 100% compliant with all European law. There will be no need for border control until we change our laws and taxes and duties.

Steve Shaw wrote: 38% of the electorate voted leave. The leave vote was skewed by the votes of older people who will be unaffected by brexit.

How to lie with ststistics by a sore loser.

Steve Shaw wrote: We have another vote to choose a government every few years, a move that is regarded as the bastion of democracy. Every few years we are afforded that rethink. Yet you would deny the people of this country a rethink about what is arguably a far more critical and certainly a far more permanent sea change in this country's future. I'll tell you what, Stanron. You're no democrat. If you thought you'd definitely win a second vote you'd be all for it. You'd jump at it. But you're afraid that you wouldn't win, so you oppose it. For no other reason. You wouldn't recognise democracy if it jumped up and bit you on the family jewels. Get honest, why don't you.

Rubbish.

Steve Shaw wrote: And I don't even bloody want another referendum. I don't want any bloody referendums.

I am happy to not have another.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM

"Do you realise that your sentence contradicts itself?"
I have little doubt that Steve meant it should not have been called in the manner it was
t has more or less been admitted that there was no plan for leaving when the proposal to do so was put forward - even most of the Tory press condemned this as utter stupidity
This left the voters to rely on things like THIS AND LITTLE ELSE
Turning one section of the population against another is as undemocratic as it gets and it verges on illegality.

As the poster shows a line of people somewhere in Eastern Europe, it is a blatant lie - I cannot remember a remainer argument which any where near approaches that level of hate-filled dishonesty
One of the first effects of this was a spike in racist incidents which took them to the highest level ever - they continue
Feel free to produce an example
The nonsensical claims about the damage that was being done and will be done continues
Britain is now facing loss of industries and trade which would not have occurred had Britain decided to remain

I don't agree with Steve's view of referenda - they have transformed Ireland and have brought about rights that would never have been given otherwise
I certainly don't agree with the dishonestly dangerous way this one has been carried out, but knowing what we know now I believe the people have a right to revisit the mess and have a say in what should happen
Even if there is a General Election and a decent party wins, whoever is elected is going to have to mop up this appalling mess and we know your lot are only capable of standing on the sidelines jeering
You have sunk Britain - god save us from Patriots
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 11:50 AM

”You have sunk Britain - god save us from Patriots”

Especially Gammon ‘patriots’ who have no understanding whatsoever of the meaning of ‘democracy’ within the political system of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, nor of the meaning of ‘Sovereignty of Parliament’ which they continue to pretend they seek to ‘reclaim’ (despite never having given it up).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 11:57 AM

On FB a few days ago from the Scottish singer Alan Hunter:

Thankyou Brexiteers for enabling and encouraging racist scum.
Tonight, at the bus stop, a brown-skinned bloke asked me for a light.
I obliged, then his bus came.
Immediately after this, I was punched in the face and told that I was a “traitor to Britain”.
This bloke had a Yorkshire accent.
I feel sick.

That happened in central Edinburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

In the "enabling and encouraging racist scum" sweepstakes, would it be the Brexiteers or the Trumpist Cult that would come out on top?

Or are they pretty much the same thing?

Just askin'---

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:17 PM

Jack, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been told by Brexiteers - mostly on Internet forums and social media, but also face-to-face - that I’m a ‘Trailor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason’.

You can't reason with that kind of ignorant stupidity.

Sorry to hear about Alan's experience, hope he makes a quick and full recovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:32 PM

Well, Jim, in a referendum you may be asking a mass of people, most of whom are ignorant of the complexities of an issue that has been sold to them as a simple yes/no, to make crucial decisions affecting generations to come far more than it affects them. Qualifications not required. If you want to know how ignorant, just read the posts of any brexit supporter here. Quite simply, there is no way that they can have properly assessed, or even tried to assess, the pro and cons of what they're being asked to decide on. This was a Tory referendum called by a lily-livered Tory who was running scared of Farage, one of the biggest racist scumbags in the country. The vast majority of Tories voted leave, and a survey showed that 48% of Tory voters consider themselves to be racists. A Tory referendum with a campaign that pandered to the xenophobic sentiments of Tory voters and disaffected (by years of Tory austerity) working class people. That's why we're leaving, and that's why I don't bloody believe in referendums. A referendum is a manipulator of ordinary people which puts them at the mercy of raving zealots on either side of the argument. We choose politicians to gen up on issues and we pay them to know what they're doing. If we don't like what they do we boot them out. We never need to sidestep parliamentary democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 12:33 PM

Same thing, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:00 PM

Well, Jim, in a referendum you may be asking a mass of people, most of whom are ignorant of the complexities of an issue that has been sold to them as a simple yes/no, to make crucial decisions affecting generations to come far more than it affects them. Qualifications not required. If you want to know how ignorant, just read the posts of any brexit supporter here. Quite simply, there is no way that they can have properly assessed, or even tried to assess, the pro and cons of what they're being asked to decide on. This was a Tory referendum called by a lily-livered Tory who was running scared of Farage, one of the biggest racist scumbags in the country. The vast majority of Tories voted leave, and a survey showed that 48% of Tory voters consider themselves to be racists. A Tory referendum with a campaign that pandered to the xenophobic sentiments of Tory voters and disaffected (by years of Tory austerity) working class people. That's why we're leaving, and that's why I don't bloody believe in referendums. A referendum is a manipulator of ordinary people which puts them at the mercy of raving zealots on either side of the argument. We choose politicians to gen up on issues and we pay them to know what they're doing. If we don't like what they do we boot them out. We never need to sidestep parliamentary democracy.
What this totally ignores is the fact that following the (non-binding) referendum the matter was put to Parliament, where the question of whether to issue article 50 was supported by a large majority, from both sides of The House.
I know you will say that to do otherwise would have been political suicide, but that means that you think that 'remain' MPs who voted to issue Article 50 are as self-serving as any others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:22 PM

It is highly patronising to suggest that people have to have decisions taken for them because are incapable of understanding it - somebody capable of making the wortld go around, as working people do on a daily basis are capable of understanding anything, given the right information
The only message that was fed to the people - certainly the one that won minority who voted it through was "vote for Brexit and we'll get rid of the immigrants for you" - Farage's claim was as crude as that.
The referendum was not democratic in any way - it was the opposite - populist - based o the lie that controlling immigration would solve everything   
The Brexiteers could hardly promise that a nooo longer existing industry would put us back on our own feet" and thee have been no plans put forward to rebuild an industrial base
The benefits of immigration have been pleaded for for severl years ago - underlined by the announcement last week by the Scientific Community that it will be in crisis after a hard Brexit as badly needed scientists will no longer be able to enter Britain

We can't kick Brexit out as your lot have refused to allow Britons to vote on it now the consequences have become obvious - and largely admitted

Thank you for your good wishes, by the way - mine to you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 01:47 PM


In the "enabling and encouraging racist scum" sweepstakes, would it be the Brexiteers or the Trumpist Cult that would come out on top?

Neither I am afraid.The only organisation undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitic racism is the Labour party. This is being carried out by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. This is hot on the heels of an official internal Labour party enquiry led by chucklbutty, who subsequently was floated into the Lords on a sea of Whitewash. Adding to labour's woes is the news, several weeks ago, that GORDON NARDELL QC, the lawyer hired by Labour last year to oversee its response for dealing with the escalating crisis over anti-Semitism, has sensationally stood down from his role, plunging the party deeper into chaos.

We brexiteers regard the rank and file labourites as mislead and misguided rather than scum.
Terrible things facts!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1149844/labour-party-news-gordon-nardell-qc-anti-Semitism-jeremy-corbyn-chris-williamson
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/equality-body-launches-investigation-of-labour-antisemitism-claims
not forgetting the beeb of course

https://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/holocaust-promoters-labour-party/

I could have used Guido of course but see no point in rubbing in salt. Who in their right mind would wish to depress the freezing point of a snowflake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jul 19 - 03:47 PM

A wonderful metaphor has arisen. Apparently the Brexit bus has been abandoned for the time being:

Although Brexit Party candidate Des Parkinson said the bus broke down last night, Derek Jeffs, a local removal company boss, told Wales Online that he saw the bus stranded on Saturday afternoon.

"It looked as if the bus had turned into the layby but there wasn't enough room to turn it around. However, the driver couldn't reverse because the road dipped down,” he said.
(Report from The Independent)


Not like the Brexit Party to get into a situation with no proper plan of how to reach their destination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 03:32 AM

"Neither I am afraid.The only organisation undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitic racism is the Labour party. "
Nothing found so far, nor will there be - No attacks on Jews, no Antisemitism, despite efforts to re-define the term by those who are not happy with humanitarian left politics

The police refused to act against Farage's obviously racist poster, though the force has admitted from time to time to being "institutionally racist" itself - shows the advantage of the right to be "tried by your peers"
The could only get Scumbag Robinson on attempting to pervert the course of justice, otherwise he and his numerous organisations are free to spread their filth whenever they please   
Maaybe Boris will make a difference OR MAYBE NOT

Nice summing up of who is WELL OUT IN FRONT in the Ravism/Anitsemitism Stakes
BREXIT ISN'T TOO FAR BEHIND

Incidentally
"antisemitic racism "
The labour Party may have been accused of antisemitism (and then, only since Corbyn expressed his disgust at what is happening to the Palestinian People) - they have never at any time been accused of having a racism problem - that lies only with The Other Side of the Chamber.
Perhaps those who can't tell the difference should invest in a good book on the subject and get someone to read it for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:15 AM

ALSO WORTH A REVISIT
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:36 AM

'Bout time someone who uses terms like 'bogtrotter' and thinks Tommy Robinson has been hard done by calls it a day on accusations of Antisemitism, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM

I think the Equality and Human Rights Commission know a tad more about the labour party and accusations of antisemitism than a disenfranchised sparky. The accusation has remained unaddressed by the party for years.
The last internal enquiry is regarded by many as a complete travesty and whitewash.
If there was no possible case to answer then there would be no enquiry.
Simples!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:16 AM

Now jeas no antisemitism - doesn't get mor difficult than that ever
You inability to control your personal abuse when you have no valid arguments is showing again - 'simples' just about sums you up

More good news on Brexit
Vauxhall has stated they will pull out of Britain if there is a no deal Brexit
Johnson has given yet another bung to Norther Ireland to secure its support - this time only a "multi-million pound one, but open to negotiation, no doubt!
If this goes on the N.E. of Ireland will be the richest part of Britain without work or businesses (apart from the body-bag trade when all these shenanigans reopens the sectarian violence)
AN ASPECT OF BREXIT OFTEN FORGOTTEN

Pip-pip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:48 AM

Should read NO JEWS NO ANTISEMITISM
By the way
"If there was no possible case to answer then there would be no enquiry."
Utter crap, of course - the Commission is obliged to investigate all such enquiries if there are enough of them 'The Labour Friends of Israel' have made sure there are since they first started their campaign
Similarly, The Labour Party is obliged to treat all such accusations seriously - as it has done
Since the Muslim leaders made similar accusations against the Tories, nothing whatever has been done and Islamophobia not only remains a major problem among the Conservatives, but it was the driving force which let the Brexit Genni out of its bottle
Stop uses the long-suffering Jewish People for Political Propaganda
Some of us are old enough to have been around to remember what right wing politics did to them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM

Tory Right-Wing Extremists getting ready to throw the vast majority of U.K. citizens under the bus following their recent coup...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM

RE: Brexiteers for enabling and encouraging racist scum.

Could be worse in Britain, of course - the President of the United States -and his entourage - ARE racist scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:54 AM

While I have a few minutes from cutting the ****** grass
A FEW QUOTABLE QUOTES FOR OUR RIGHTIST FRIEND
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 09:59 AM

Another astute piece about the Right-Wing Extremist Gang’s Coup and the effect it’s going to have on ordinary people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 10:36 AM

Looks like the Irish teapot is losing out on the popularity stakes.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1159021/Brexit-news-Ireland-Leo-Varadkar-poll-UK-Boris-Johnson-no-deal-latest-update

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 11:15 AM

"Irish teapot" - another gem from your racist repertoire no doubt
IT SEEMS YOU'RE IN GOOD COMPANY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:42 PM

Following on from earlier comments about the "Brexit Bus", here is the news from Wales Online

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 19 - 04:59 PM

I think you will find Jim that "teapot"is a euphemism for a homosexual man in some quarters. If it has been meant in that way it would not surprise me one iota. We have seen other homophobic comments from him before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM

"I think you will find Jim that "teapot"is a euphemism for a homosexual man in some quarters"
Didn't know that Rag
So we can add raving homophobia to this clown's CV
What an apology for a human being - he goes from depth to depth whenever he visits his keyboard - a great representative of right politics, if ever there was one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:24 AM

On the heels of Vauxhall declaring it will pull out of Britain after a no deal,Sterling takes a nosedive, thanks to Brexit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:44 AM

Feb 26, 2019 - In the summer of last year it was reported, to the surprise of many, that Vauxhall/Opel was returning to profit under new PSA Peugeot/Citroen.
Realistically the company has been a basket case for decades.
One swallow does not a summer make

The pound has actually traded lower in the past. Uncertainty leads to volatility. Most people know that!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:36 AM

I don't think it has been lower against the Euro. Remember, we could have gone in to the Euro at 1.6, not doing so was the one thing that Gordon Brown got seriously wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:39 AM

We are having a democratic candidates' debate tonight [we=Mrricans]. I actually feel worse for y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:43 AM

From Jim:On the heels of Vauxhall declaring it will pull out of Britain after a no deal,Sterling takes a nosedive, thanks to Brexit
The only quotes I heard (including on the anti-Brexit BBC) were that the company would pull out of Ellesmere Port (Not out of UK as there would still be Luton) but only under certain circumstances:
"Frankly I would prefer to put it [the Astra car] in Ellesmere Port, but if the conditions are bad and I cannot make it profitable, then I have to protect the rest of the company and I will not do it," (accurate quote from BBC)

A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

I don't think it has been lower against the Euro. Remember, we could have gone in to the Euro at 1.6,
Currently 1.0988
12 Oct 2009 1.07866
22 Dec 2008 1.0549.3
Better to look it up rather than going on personal feelings: Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:34 AM

"A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable."
If Brexit has had anything to do with this, as it is claimed, then Brexit is causing the "unprofitability"
That unprofitability is taking 1000 jobs out of a part of Britain which historically has major unemployment problems - the work will go to Europe
Tell the workers at Ellesmere Port that is a perfectly fair viewpoint
Bexit is supposed to enable Britain to "stand on its own two feet" - where does taking jobs to Europe fit in with this grand plan ?
It is difficult to discover how many jobs have been lost following Dyson's move to Singapore and India, but Wiltshire seems to have been one of the areas affected
Dyson invested millions in gettig Brexit through and immediately pissed off
It has been announced that 3,500 jobs at Hongda will be lost in the next 18 months
And teh bea goes on
All good business practice, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:11 PM

THESE FIGURES ARE FOUR MONTHS OLD
THE SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME ???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:15 PM

"A perfectly fair viewpoint, as no business is going to continue for long if unprofitable."
If Brexit has had anything to do with this, as it is claimed, then Brexit is causing the "unprofitability"
That unprofitability is taking 1000 jobs out of a part of Britain which historically has major unemployment problems - the work will go to Europe
Tell the workers at Ellesmere Port that is a perfectly fair viewpoint

No, it said that the jobs may go, if it proves impossible to trade profitably at the Ellesmere Port site.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:55 PM

I am hearing a lot of comments from the PM and various ministers that it is up to the EU whether we leave with no deal. That sounds like laying the ground that it will be the EU's fault if we leave with no deal.

Sounds very juvenile to me. If people think a no deal is fine, stop trying to blame other for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:14 PM

"No, it said that the jobs may go, "
Jobs have already gone
Britain needs to plan for creating jobs, not planning for losing more and certainly not adopting a "wait and let's see what heppens" policy
No system can survive such an approach to its economy

From reports form Wales, it seems that an adverse effect on Framing is now being planned for
Johnson has promised that farming will receive government help if this happens
He has been warned that if Brexit is damaging to Welsh Farming there is likely to ve civil unrest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM

Interesting analysis of Google searches about no-deal

If, as we sometimes told, everyone understood they were well aware of the no-deal option at the time they voted in the referendum, it seems many may have forgotten until fairly recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 05:08 PM

We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the UN; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 09:10 PM

Who's this "we"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:49 AM

I agree, Steve. The premise is that the best solution for any problem is either very local or world wide. It seems fairly self evident to me that that is not the case. Sorting out my bin collection, planning and maintaining motorways and climate change are on three inherently different levels I would say. So two levels seem inadequate just on that example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:13 AM

Rer3ading his post, Inrealise that Walkabout may have meant some of that when he said "some local government" and therefore addressed the three levels I gave as examples. So take the UK with its four components. Or the US with its local admin, state wide rules and federal rules. These are driven by the need for an organisation higher than local and lower than world wide.

Then think about the unification of Italy. They had regional 'nations' and that was replaced by a unified nation. Which was more appropriate in your scheme.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 03:01 AM

If you think about the functions of government, from ensuring peace to emptying the bins, there is an appropriate level for all of them. And the level that seems appropriate for the least is actually the national government. Nationalism has been responsible for as much conflict in the world as religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:35 AM

Interesting report in The Times this morning
Nigel Farage has said that Johnson’s right-hand man on Brexit is not to be trusted as he “is not a true believer”
Hallelujah !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 05:07 AM

He was referring to Dominic Cummings, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 10:32 AM

The Central Bank of Ireland has sounded off about potential ‘cliff-edge’ risks in the event of a no-deal, no-transition Brexit:

    “The main outstanding source of risk to financial stability in Ireland stems from a worse-than-expected macroeconomic shock. This could arise if the expected negative impact through trade channels is compounded by a sharp increase in uncertainty and a fall in confidence, with knock-on effects to Irish employment, incomes and investment. Ireland’s relatively acute exposure to Brexit may also negatively alter investor sentiment towards Irish assets, with adverse implications for financing conditions of an already relatively indebted private sector. Given the extent of direct and indirect exposures, this would result in unanticipated losses for the domestic financial system.”

The Central Bank forecasts that in a No Deal scenario Irish economic output could be approximately 6% lower in 2020. In the understated language of central bankers they warn of

    “… severe financial market dislocation and have potential knock-on effects for financial stability in Ireland.

Yesterday’s third quarterly report report from the bank predicts there will be around 34,000 fewer jobs by the end of next year and more than 100,000 fewer jobs over the medium term compared to their forecast in the event of no deal. The Irish workforce is only two and a quarter million – one fifteenth the size of the UK. This would be like the UK losing 1.5 million jobs, almost 5% of the workforce…

Intransigence costs jobs!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 11:03 AM

Intransigence costs jobs!

No doubt you will recognise that if Boris takes us into a no deal through HIS intransigence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:16 PM

Nonsense. Varadkar represents a population not even the size of Yorkshire and he cannot even play cricket!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

Looks like Boris & Co. can forget any sort of a trade deal with the U.S. if the Backstop is ditched.

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:26 PM

And that's no empty threat. Ireland has many friends in Congress and Trump will find it impossible to get a deal past them if they feel the the Good Friday Agreement is threatened. Which ditching the backstop will definitely do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:49 PM

I detect a clutching of straws!
Are they the stainless steel killer variety?
or the Blond bombshell re elect me plastic straws?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:13 PM

There has been a marked shift in recent days to start laying the blame for a "no-deal" with anyone who just happens to be there. Leo Vadarkar, Angela Merkel, the European Union in general.

Just so Johnson can try to claim it wasn't his fault. Will the British public fall for those lies. Sadly many will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM

There is another US factor that so far I haven't seen discussed. If you cast your mind back to 'The Troubles' a very large number of - mainly east coast - Americans were quite willing to contribute to 'the cause'. And all those people have votes in upcoming presidential elections. Trump is certainly opposed to the EU as a concept, but he is also in favour of getting votes where he can. I would not be surprised to see quite a few comments from both sides trying to win the support of these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:24 PM

It takes a special sort of mentality to gloat over other people's problems (especially those caused by the Party they support) and ignore those being caused daily to your own country
Maybe it's something they put in the water !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

Timmy Dooley, Communications Spokesman for Fianna Fáil, blasted Varadkar’s “failure to engage in basic diplomacy over the past 2 years” in a now-deleted tweet:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:15 PM

I agree, Raggy, the Brexiteers are not showing much confidence that no deal will be a great success. They sound really desperate to blame someone - anyone - if it doesn't work out. Boris will tell them off for lack of optimism, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM

"Fianna Fáil, "
Formed and led by Eoin O'Duffy who was President of the Executive Council; Éamon de Valera dismissed O'Duffy as commissioner; O@Duffy that July, O'Duffy was offered and accepted leadership of the ACA and renamed it the National Guard. He re-modelled the organisation, adopting elements of European fascism, such as the Roman straight-arm salute, uniforms and huge rallies. Membership of the new organisation became limited to people who were Irish or whose parents "profess the Christian faith". O'Duffy was an admirer of Benito Mussolini, and the Blueshirts adopted corporatism as their chief political aim.

I spoke to Dooley before the last election ahd he told me why he believed Donald Trump should be welcomed to Ireland
Someone whose opinions should be taken very, very seriously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:55 PM

As I said earlier, it takes a special kind of mental dwarfism to gloat over the troubles of others
I was half-joking when I first came to that conclusion - it seems first impressions are often the most reliable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:14 PM

"I detect a clutching of straws!"

It's clutching AT straws, old chap. Even Mr Staines wouldn't have made that elemental mistake. And the straws in question are not, as you appear to suppose, drinking straws, but straws of the dried grassy variety. Tsk. He's going to be very cross with you...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:16 PM

Pedantics clutch at trivialities. The broad sweep cuts the hay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:43 PM

Sometimes the invocation of "pedantics" is an amazing way of exposing idiots. Try to not align yourself too closely is my advice, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

My appreciation is that the idiot is you, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:51 PM

Fine. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 03:22 AM

An interesting snippet regarding Brexit and the possibility of Irish reunification.
Official figures explain that the annual net cost to the UK being in the European Union is £8.1 billion. Whereas the size of the annual subvention to Northern Ireland is a whopping £9.2 billion. It costs more for Northern Ireland to be within the UK than for the UK to be in the EU

Of course for any vote on unification to occur the republic must give consent.(and be prepared to dig deep in their pockets) Typical of the media to only give a partial story.

I find all this of rather more pressing concern than the resident pedant's focus on straws, but then if he cannot construct links it rather betrays an inability to think clearly or to follow simple rules.
Really best ignored in fact. He only pops up to insult flame and troll.
Just look at his recent contributions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 03:44 AM

"An interesting snippet regarding Brexit and the possibility of Irish reunification."
An extremly edited and manipulated quote which carefully leaves out the important bits

On Brexit, Gosling believes that it “will clearly be damaging”. He predicts that the Northern Ireland economy will be between 2.5% and 10% smaller than it would have been without Brexit.
He explained to the Féile audience why big companies like Bombardier and Wrightbus are worried about markets in Great Britain as their trade tends to be east-west, and their individual transactions have the greatest value.
Meanwhile, SMEs – who have the greatest volume of transacitons – are more worried about north-south trade.
Paul reminded the audience about the scale of pubic spending in Northern Ireland, the area with the highest public spend per person in the UK.
Official figures explain that the annual net cost to the UK being in the European Union is £8.1 billion. Whereas the size of the annual subvention to Northern Ireland is a whopping £9.2 billion.
It costs more for Northern Ireland to be within the UK than for the UK to be in the EU!
He asked: “why does the United Kingdom pay £9.2 billion a year to keep Northern Ireland?”
While supportive of a border poll, Paul explained during the Q&A that he believes that there is no rush. Better to wait for the impact of Brexit to hit, show how the Irish economy weathers it while the north struggles, and then make a call for a poll.
Any exit from the UK should not be “big bang”.
“We need to get to a negotiated solution in which we move stage-by-stage to a United Ireland because it is in the interest of the Great Britain taxpayer that they reduce the cost of Northern Ireland.”
Paul calculates that the subvention would be somewhat lower if Northern Ireland belonged to the Republic of Ireland rather than the United Kingdom. Some costs wouldn’t transfer across, or would be substantially lower: eg, contribution to defence spending, paying off the UK debt, smaller matters like the Royal Family.

THE ARTICLE IN FULL

A rather spectacular example of teh shyster way that Brexit is being sold to teh gullible, I would say
MORE GOOD NEWS FOR BREXIT BELFAST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:38 AM

Well if it costs all that dough to keep Northern Ireland, let's get rid! And while we're at it, let's get rid of all those other costly areas too, such as Tyneside, Merseyside, Wales, West Yorkshire and Cornwall! In fact, let's get rid of everywhere except London!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:47 AM

Ah, the Beeching approach....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

One of the early predictions of Brexit was that it would be the end of the United Kingdom
It has made a United Ireland a distinct possibility, the SNP are calling for a new referendum on devolution, Welsh farmers are talking about civil unrest after Johnson's descending on them.... seems like there was some substance to the suggestion
Should cheer up the little Englanders no end - wonder if they'll adopt the title sinn fein ("ourselves")
Interesting days
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:43 AM

There is no net cost of the UK being in the European Union. Only a net benefit. You must include the benefits to citizens as well as to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 05:55 AM

Quite amusing in its way to see the Treasury are now discussing the possibility of an emergency budget because of Brexit. Project fear, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 06:18 AM

That is correct, David. Trying to assess "benefits" or otherwise in purely money terms is dismal. What about the cultural benefits brought about by easy travel, or the fact that we will never have a pan-European war again? And I didn't hear too many complaints fifteen years ago when all those highly-skilled dentists, plumbers, electricians, and healthcare workers flooded in when we didn't have enough of our own...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 08:11 AM

More 'gpod' news from Brexit
The Bank of England has cut its predictions of economic growth because of the continuing deteriorating situation - they have also declared that the economy will be hit severely if Britain leaves without a deal
Javid has announced that the Tories will use £2 billion of the taxpayers money in order to leave on time "we don't want to but we see no alternative"

The real 'good news is that the Tories stand to have their majority reduced to one if the Welsh by-election goes as predicted
So not all bad news then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:42 AM

Tidings of great Joy! Poll wants to exile compo to the cabbage patch.

Since taking over as leader of the party in September 2015, Jeremy Corbyn has attempted to put Prime Ministers David Cameron, Theresa May and now Boris Johnson under as much pressure as possible in his quest to win the keys to 10 Downing Street. He has upped the ante since the EU referendum in June 2016, looking to take advantage of the Brexit chaos that has swept through the Government and Westminster over the past year years.
In his first heated clash with Mr Johnson in the House of Commons last Thursday, Mr Corbyn again called for a general election, raging the British people should choose the next Prime Minister and not the 160,000 Tory members.

But a major new poll has revealed a growing number of voters want the Labour Party to axe their current leader before the next general election.

The survey by Ipsos Mori of 1,0007 UK adults found 62 percent now want the party to replace him before the country next goes to the polls, compared to 55 percent a year ago.

I prefer him   where he is- he is the epitome of uselessness!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM

An unattributed copy and paste from the Express from Iains, pretending it's his own work. How honest. How Lord bloody Haw-Haw. He was told what to say too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

Once again no link, so we cannot check the veracity of his post.

This is despite being asked to provide links on numerous occasions.

If he is so confident of what he posts why is he so relucant to supply the origins.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

Copy and paste the first sentence into your browser. The post was lifted straight from the Express, that left-wing bastion of fair comment and unbiased reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:56 PM

Re-opened. Play nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM

Thanks, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:43 AM

My disparaged post about a poll clearly stated it was by Ipsos Mori.
Strangely enough they have their own website, just like YouGov.
There you can double check the results to your heats content.

A more recent result yesterday:
A ComRes poll found 54 per cent of the public agree that the Prime Minister Boris Johnson 'needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending Parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it' . The poll also uncovered a widespread disillusionment with the political process, with 88% of respondents feeling MPs were 'out of touch' with the public, and 89% saying they 'ignore the wishes of voters and push their own agendas' on Brexit. Asked whether they thought Parliament was more in tune with the public than Mr Johnson, 62% disagreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:20 AM

MPs are not in Parliament to follow ‘the wishes of voters’. That’s not how Representative Democracy works. Why do Leave supporters find it such a difficult concept to understand? How many times does it need to be said before it sinks in?

The Responsibilities of an MP

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM

I am no longer asking for any positive predictions as, over the last 3 years, that has proved useless. I was asking on the last thread for ideas which may help to get what is right for the country and will satisfy the desires of most people. I know we cannot sway opinion from here but I am interested in what our resident leavers, particularly Stanron and Nigel, think is a good way forward.

Yes, this is a theoretical exercise. The ideas may not be achievable.
But neither was the internet not long ago!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:47 AM

Headline voting figures
Con 31 +2
Lab 27 -3
TBP 16 +1
LD 16 NC
Grn 4 -1
SNP 3 NC
UKIP 1 NC


"All the 17/18c declarations about parliamentary supremacy are mostly penned by lawyer MPs. And they were writing about parliament as a way of countering the power of the monarch.
Until the 1832 Reform Act, the franchise was so sketchily minimal that nobody could claim the people had any way of exercising popular sovereignty, and education was so basic among the majority that it was not considered desirable.
After 1832, the people made their wishes ever clearer, forcing governments into the Repeal of the Corn Laws, social and electoral reform (prodded by the massive wave of Chartists).
The monarchy retreated from power - Victoria became progressively more arms length with governments, letting them legislate.
At no time in the 19th or 20th centuries did anybody say, oh never mind the government, we'll just leave it to parliament. George V enterprisingly banged the politicians' heads together in 1931 when the parties were fighting internal civil wars, and ordered them to realign and form a National Government to pass legislation the majority of the voters desperately demanded and needed, to deal with the slump.
If power did not come from the people, those MPs would not be sitting in that chamber at all."


Rees-Mogg addressing the "only advisory" element of the referendum. Bearing in mind, all referenda, bar the AV one in the UK have always been advisory and the result enacted upon (simply because the status quo won on the day).He said "Ah, those opposite and those in the court are claiming 'But it was only advisory'. Advisory to whom? Were we to advise ourselves? After all, we, in this house, voted overwhelmingly to allow the referendum to take place, so advising ourselves on what to do would be a pointless task if ever there was one. No, we were asking for the British people to advise us what to do, and their advice was given plainly that we must leave the European Union. Do we ignore their advice? Never. Only at our peril. "

"By passing the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill 2017 Parliament and the government ruled that the result of the Referendum 2016 was to be formally and unswervingly enacted.
Passing the Withdrawal Act 2018 enacted the full process. Parliamentary opposition to its own legislation is pointless. It has no further role, and remainer MPs have left themselves no more time to change their little minds yet again. The government is not minded to request a treaty change, and parliament cannot in law insist it does so.
Parliament has in fact just demonstrated that it is not supreme or sovereign at all. Even with the most bigoted bully the Speaker's Chair has ever seen, it is powerless to squash the people's vote to re-establish our national sovereignty - and It must now sit back and gnash its teeth helplessly."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:23 AM

Of course I should have added that you may not want a compromise that partially satisfies most people. You may be of the "like it or lump it" school and say that just crashing out is best. I don't like that idea for a number of reasons, most of which I have already covered. If that is your opinion then, fair enough. If it does all work out for the best, take the credit. If it all goes pear shaped though will you take responsibility or just blame someone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:52 AM

Not directly connected with Brexit but very much a part of the unelected Nigel Farages attempts to create an image as a straight- talking, beer swilling man-of-the-people in order to become part of Brexit's populist Government
Farage has made a speech in Australia where he humiliated members of the Royal family (Gawd luv them)
He ridiculed Megan and Harry's decision to have only two children in oder to highlight the dangers of overpopulation, sneered at Prince Charles's take on Global Warming, saying it would be better if he died before the queen and described the late Queen Mother as an "overweight, gin-drinking chainsmoker
Apparently it all went down very well in republican-minded Australia.
Amazing what political ambition does to patriots who wish to climb the greasy pole
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

An interesting poll of how MPs think they should act and how most of their electorate think they should act.


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/13/are-mps-elected-exercise-their-own-judgement-or-do?utm_source=t

"As Burke found 250 years ago, constituents have very different ideas, with 63% of Britons saying that MPs are elected “to act according to the wishes of their constituents, even when this goes against their own judgement”. In contrast to the system Burke proposed, this is the ‘delegate model of representation’."

But it must be pointed out that Burke only flourished in his later career because he was elected to rotten boroughs.

Today more people are enfranchised and far better educated and capable of insisting their representatives represent them.
The next General Election will clarify this stance to the nth degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:10 AM

I note that the US, with the horrid John Bolton at the helm (arguably at least twice as vile as Trump), is gleefully pursuing us for when we leave the EU, which Trump hates with a vengeance. It isn't about giving us a good deal (which will take many years and which will come laden with unpalatable conditions). It's about driving wedges on this side of the Atlantic. Long may the US be a waning force in the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:56 AM

Bolton has the EU sussed with referendums. They take the Robert the Bruce approach of try try and try again until the right answer is given.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:57 AM

I also note that no matter how many friends Ireland has in the US congress, those in that congress won't stand up to trump and if they tried he'd just go around them anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:24 AM

Nancy Pelosi has said that the chances of a trade deal getting through Congress on the back of a crash-out, leaving the backstop trashed and the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy, are nil. A trade deal with the US anytime soon is in the realms of clouds and cuckoos. Johnson doesn't appear to be relaying that bad news. But he wouldn't, would he?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:40 AM

NEW WARMONGER IN THE WHITEHOUSE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:01 PM

We do lots of trade already with the US without a deal. This will continue after leaving, however we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:20 PM

”We do lots of trade already with the US without a deal. This will continue after leaving, however we leave.”

I’m sure you’re right, Stan. But that’s not the worry, is it? The worry is that Bozo and his cohorts are in cahoots with Trump’s bunch and desperate for a ‘deal’, and that any deal the Americans are prepared to enter into with the UK will be very heavily weighted in the US’s favour. Don’t forget Trump’s election battle-cry - “America First!”.

Get ready for a diet of chlorine, steroids, and vaccines, and a privatised health service.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM

So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

"This will continue after leaving, however we leave."
Surely the point is not what Trade will maintain but how will they replace tTHAT WHICH WILL BE LOST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:38 PM

It is absolutely patently Trump's primary intention
is to do everything in his power to weaken all other nations..
..whether they be competitors or allies...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM

So the other thread did get closed then?

I will transfer my lack of response to this thread, but I could not let this wonderful sentence in an email from my MP go by unrecorded:

We are on our third Prime Minister since the referendum, I place the responsibility for that at the EU’s door.

Everything is the EU's fault, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:41 PM

More project fear from the gruniard

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/john-bolton-trade-deal-uk-colonise

But if it ever became a choice between becoming a US state with a clearly stated bill of rights, or an EU vassalage, the answer is obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

The chlorinated chicken scare always seems a bit overblown to me. In my teens I was a keen swimmer and immersed myself in chlorinated water almost daily most summers and several days a week in winter. Admittedly I never ate myself but any chlorinated water always seemed to wash off.

My post was in response to Steve Shaw's post

Date: 13 Aug 19 - 11:24 AM

saying a deal was unlikely any time soon. Your list of scare stories would therefor be unlikely any time soon as well.

I would prefer leaving without a deal as that is the only way of actually leaving. All this business about stopping us leaving without a deal is really about stopping us leaving full stop (period).

The dynamic of getting a deal or deals after we have left will be different to previous negotiations. The point is that there will be a deal or a number of deals after we leave but we won't always have to be the supplicant. No deal is not no deal for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:16 PM

Chlorination is the mainstay of potable water treatment in the UK. Every time we wash ourselves,our kitchen utensils or vegetables the various items are chlorinated to the tune of about 0.5mg/l. For the average person the only time chlorine becomes a hazard is by misuse of household hypochlorite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:22 PM

Stanron your response once again begs the question I have asked in scores of occasion that has yet to be answered in any coherent form.

IF you can tell me how myself and millions of others like me will be better off outside the EU you will have my full support.

I'm still awaiting that conherent response.

Over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:32 PM

Raggytash wrote: Stanron your response once again begs the question I have asked in scores of occasion that has yet to be answered in any coherent form.

IF you can tell me how myself and millions of others like me will be better off outside the EU you will have my full support.

I'm still awaiting that conherent response.

Over to you.

You are not waiting for a response from me. You are pretending that I, and others, have not already responded. You might fool yourself, you might fool some other people but you don't fool everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:49 PM

Sorry Stanron, neither you nor anyone of the leave side has ever been able to present a coherent arguement for leaving.

You have stated we will regain our sovereignty which we never lost. You claim we will regain control of our border bust that only relates to Europeans immigration, from other parts of the world we already have full control.

So please tell me how I will be better off.

To date I have experienced only negatives, rise in the cost of my weekly expenses a dramatic fall in the value of the pound. My insurance companies relocating to mainland Europe etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:31 PM

As I suggested you ignore what I, Iains and Nigel Parsons have posted. The cliches you list are not what we posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:37 PM

So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:42 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: So, Stanron, do you favour crashing out or some sort of deal with the EU? If it is the latter, what sort of deal?

Read my post;

Date: 13 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

My answer is in the last two paragraphs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:44 PM

A coherent, yea compelling, reason for leaving.
51.89% voted to leave.In layman's terms this is a majority. 'nuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 06:04 PM

'Surely the point is not what trade will maintain but how will they replace THAT WHICH WILL BE LOST"

That's right. Trade with the US is utterly dwarfed at present by trade with the EU. Let's suppose that, by some miracle, the backstop is not threatened and the Good Friday Agreement remains secure (impossible with a no-deal, but one can always imagine). It will take decades for the current trade volume and balance between us and the EU to be replicated by any deal between us and the US, and even that is supposing that we'll get a deal at all. Which we certainly won't if the many Irish-supporting democrats in Congress get even the slightest sniff of a threat to peace in Ireland. Which they will.

By the way, the chlorinated chicken issue is nothing to do with whether we are going to be obliged to consume chlorine. It's about lower welfare and hygiene standards in the US which can only be compensated for by harsh post-slaughter disinfecting treatment. I'm no fan of the standards in the EU but be assured that they are a damn sight better than those in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 06:52 PM

From The BBC
Why ban chlorine-washed chicken?
Washing chicken in chlorine and other disinfectants to remove harmful bacteria was a practice banned by the European Union (EU) in 1997 over food safety concerns. The ban has stopped virtually all imports of US chicken meat which is generally treated by this process.
Although the article goes on to give figures for greater health risks for US chicken, as the EU ban only came in in 1997, it is worth asking whether this was to improve food standards, or to reduce competition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 07:40 PM

The former. All EU countries must adhere to welfare and hygiene standards that don't apply in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 03:05 AM

Thanks Stanron and apologies for not noticing that before. Going back to an earlier post of mine on the brexit 5 thread then, if it all works out fine, I am happy to give credit where it is due. If it all goes pear shaped though, will you take responsibility or blame someone else? Hopefully, we will still be about in 10 years and that should be !omg enough to tell. I seriously hope that you are right because, if not, we are all screwed. Gambling with your own welfare is one thing. Gambling with the economy of 65 million people is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 11:03 AM

Oh, we *are* all screwed. The problem is that they expect us to lie back and enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 11:06 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: If it all goes pear shaped though, will you take responsibility or blame someone else?

That's an interesting question. If it turns out that I was wrong I would admit my mistake but responsibility would have to be shared.

As for gambling, part of my point of view is that it would be a very great gamble to remain in the EU. I see it as a nascent empire of evil. At it's base is deceit and a contempt of the individual. This is charmingly counterpointed by a clumsy incompetence and what I suspect will turn out to be a rather stupid intransigence.

As I have said I expect that in the next five to ten years the EU will collapse under the weight of it's own absurdities. We will be better off out than in if and when that happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 11:17 AM

The EU and the US have a long-running dispute over imports of chlorine-treated poultry, which EU member states have refused to accept since 1997. The feud has resulted in proceedings before the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and remains a major bone of contention in EU-US trade relations.



According to a report from the Adam Smith Institute (which argues in favour of allowing PRTs), “immersing poultry meat in chlorine dioxide solution of the strength used in the United States reduces prevalence of salmonella from 14% in controls to 2%. EU chicken samples typically have 15-20% salmonella.”

The US disputes this, says the ban is not based on scientific evidence and little more than wilful protectionism designed to protect EU poultry producers from more competitive imports.

So is it safe?

US regulators are unequivocal: yes, it’s safe. The USDA has approved several antimicrobial rinses for use in poultry processing, including chlorine dioxide, acidified sodium chlorite, trisodium phosphate and peroxyacids, and meat treated with such rinses is considered safe for consumers to eat.

And, in fact, their EU colleagues agree. The European food safety regulator EFSA looked at the issue of chlorine treatment and found “chemical substances in poultry are unlikely to pose an immediate or acute health risk for consumers.”

The Adam Smith Institute says there are good reasons for the UK to scrap EU rules that currently ban chlorine-treated poultry in this country.

In a new briefing paper called Chlorinated chicken - Why You Shouldn’t Give A Cluck, it argues British consumers could enjoy much cheaper poultry if the ban on chlorine treatment were lifted. “US methods produce fresh chicken at 79% of the price of equivalent birds on British supermarket shelves,” it says.

It also points out American consumers eat about 156 million chlorine-treated chickens a week, and are fine, and that the risk associated with chlorine treatment are tiny. “Adults would need to eat 5% of their bodyweight in chlorinated chicken each day to be at risk of ill health from poultry alone,” it says. “Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm.”

And propaganda from: It’s fair to say the British Poultry Council is not at all impressed by all this talk of American chicken imports. In fact, chief executive Richard Griffiths flatly rejects the notion of importing chlorine-washed chickens as part of a makeweight in trade negotiations with the US.

“We are proud to produce wholesome, nutritious and affordable food for the UK population. We also know that British consumers trust nothing other than British chicken,” he says. (and we will make them pay through the nose for it.)



All this information from “The Grocer” no less. No leftie axe to grind with them, just wholesome facts!(Chlorine dipped of course)


Also just under a year ago the EU decided Millions of chickens could soon be sold across the EU without being individually inspected for contamination or signs of disease after being killed, in a move some experts believe will put consumers at increased risk of food poisoning bugs. Campylobacter is Europe’s biggest cause of food poisoning, with up to 9 million cases estimated to occur annually, although most are not reported. Rates of the disease – which can prove fatal – are known to be rising, with high levels found in chicken meat. This would seem a good example of EU joined up thinking.

Is a jug of well chlorinated water required to accompany a meal of chicken in this brave new world of the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 12:10 PM

Chicken à la industrial chemicals.. yum...

.. and Boris playing chicken with the EU and all our futures..

Wot a silly clucker...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 12:15 PM

i reckon it is interesting to think that no-one (on here anyway) seems to have changed their mind (in fact i have been introduced to another phrase - along with backstop and proroguing - 'double-down') the nearer we get to halloween the more us remainers get angry and worried and the brexiteers double-down on their unshakable faith in leaving.

no matter what happens i'm angry that we are engaged in this massively expensive and risky nonsense. and all because cameron never had the guts to call out nigel farage for the creepy little fascist that he is.

ho hum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 12:59 PM

And now the insults start! What part of majority escapes your understanding? Maybe I can help!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM

Brexit has now undermined Parliamentary DEmocracy in Britain
Hammond and other leading Tories have accused Johnson oand the Brexiteers of betraying the people by bringing taking up policies from non elected campaigners (like Farage) and are deciding to override Parliament
Johnson (in fine Trump style) has accused Hammond of colluding with the EU to stop Brexit
The Tory Party seems to have entered into a state of Civil War with each other, leaving Britain ungoverned
Up lads and at 'em
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:12 PM

"Johnson (in fine Trump style) "
He tweeted his accusation, byt the way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

Agreed, Pete. Cameron will forever be known not just as pig sticker but also the man who ran from a fight with the nicotine stained man-frog and then abdicated all responsibility for his failure.I

Stanron, thanks for the civil and honest answer. We may disagree but at least we can discuss. Who will share the responsibility if it does go wrong though? As far as I am concerned the ball is entirely with you - I.E. The leavers. Who else will be to blame for crashing out of the EU? Well, I suppose there is porky prick and the toad... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM

well some people who voted leave did not envisage a no deal brexit.
mean while I feel it is necessary to criticise the EU For signing MERCOSUR AGREEMENT.The EU bangs on about emissions and then signs an agreement with Brazil, a country that apparantly has 23 per cent of the cattle population of the world, second behind India 32 per cent. Ireland has 0.07 per cent. However while i am very critucal of the hypocrisy of the EU , I DO NOT AGREE WITH LEAVING IN A NO DEAL BREXIT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

"... it would be a very great gamble to remain in the EU. I see it as a nascent empire of evil. At it's base is deceit and a contempt of the individual. This is charmingly counterpointed by a clumsy incompetence and what I suspect will turn out to be a rather stupid intransigence."

And you're comparing this unfavourably with our putative major trading partners of the future, the US and China? And don't pretend to think that we won't "lose our sovereignty" in our dealings with them. We'll certainly lose our sovereignty over food standards and the NHS and we'll certainly have to toe the line over Hong Kong and hold our noses as we deal with the most repressive regime on earth. We will be minnows in a sea of sharks. We will do as we're told. Why, we might soon have to ditch the nuclear deal with Iran as a condition for trading with Trump. All this for kicking up a big fuss over the one percent of our GDP and none of our domestic laws that are tied up with the EU (and even that isn't all one-way: ask those stupid farmers who voted leave but who are about to lose their subsidies...), and an immigration policy that has overwhelmingly benefited this country. You're old like me, you have your house and your pensions and your savings and you don't have to find a job, and brexit won't bother you. You can fiddle while the country burns. And you know that, don't you. You'll have to pay a lot more for your veg and wine, though. You'll manage, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: You'll have to pay a lot more for your veg and wine, though.

Because the EU puts tariffs on foreign wine and food, after leaving we have the option to pay less for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:12 PM

non elected campaigners (like Farage) and are deciding to override Parliament

I hate to point out that the electorate gave Mr Farage and the Brexit party the largest number of seats of any one party in the EU.
You are 'avin a laff surely?

A recent yougov poll clearly demonstrated that MPs should do the bidding of the people. The majority voted for brexit. It is the MPs who are trying to overturn the people.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:32 PM

Farage is nor an elected member of the British parliament - the British peooe pissed his party out of existence democratically - stop seeling our democracy to a bumnch of has-been fascists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:32 PM

Farage is nor an elected member of the British parliament - the British peooe pissed his party out of existence democratically - stop seeling our democracy to a bumnch of has-been fascists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

I tend to judge the integrity and worth of 'ordinary' folks by their 'heroes'...

Boris, Trump, Farage... hmmmmmm....?????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:48 PM

Pretty much all non-EU imported food comes from countries with which the EU already has a free trade agreement. A lot from Africa. So the prices of virtually everything we eat will rise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

My apologise to the mods for not heeding their advice to 'ignore the troll' - won't happen again.
I thought it worthwhile to remind people that Britain is governed by representatives elected to Westminster, not to Brussels, or for that matter, to Washington or Moscow, especially those intending to be where they are for another month and a half
If Britain leavers the EU in October the present members of tye EU will be lining up at the dole queue looking for a job - the only voice Farage and his ilk will have is from the platform of a Tommy Robinson rally
Never thought I'd say it but I agree with Philip Hammond when he describes Johnson's taking orders from unelected scum like Farage as treachery
The Way things are going, if Johnson gets his way, parliamentary democracy will be a thing of the past and his opponents will be moving into some of the new prisons he's proposing to build
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 03:06 PM

I thought it worthwhile to remind people that Britain is governed by representatives elected to Westminster, not to Brussels,

I think it worthwhile to point out that Parliament is now subordinate to EU legislation and therefore governed by Brussels.

Despite denial, it is their avowed intention to proceed with
Federalism
Majority voting
Control of foreign policy
etc etc.
Parliament will simply become an anachronistic franking machine.

While Boris(blessed be his name) is following the wishes of the majority He is a staunch supporter of democracy. It is certain member of Parliament aided by a treacherous squeaker defying the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 03:57 PM

Strange, innit, Jim, that we laud a weirdo Tory such as Hammond for telling it like it truly is. There is no mandate whatsoever for a no-deal brexit no matter how the "will of the people" notion is dressed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 04:04 PM

"Jim, that we laud a weirdo Tory such as Hammond for telling it like it truly is."
Tis indeed
Would you mind telling our friend that Britain may be part of the EU but that organisation plays no part in the governance of England - trading partners have no say in its governance unless traitors like Johnson allow them to have
Patriots - I've shit 'em
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 04:05 PM

May as well give Tommy Robinson the crown
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 05:04 PM

Would you mind telling our friend that Britain may be part of the EU but that organisation plays no part in the governance of England

Since 1972 A total of 52741 laws have been introduced in the UK as a result of EU legislation.

Laws=Governance. Am I missing something here?

Strange, innit, Jim, that we laud a weirdo Tory such as Hammond for telling it like it truly is. There is no mandate whatsoever for a no-deal brexit no matter how the "will of the people"

Which Hammond would that be?
The Hammond that argued that voters weren’t told before the referendum that voting to Leave could mean leaving without a deal.
or the Hammond that said " Let’s look for a moment now at the default option – the World Trade Organization rules, which is where we will end up if we leave the EU without a deal agreed.   For anyone who wants to ensure a clean break with the EU, the WTO is the only honest model."

I can even link to a Chatham House video of the lying git.(courtesy ofGuido of course)

https://order-order.com/2019/08/14/hammond-wto-honest-model/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 05:31 PM

Meanwhile the government is headed by someone who wrote in his
Pro-European article that the UK continued presence in the EU would be "a boon for for the world and for Europe" and "there is a market on our doorstep, ready for further exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 05:37 PM

As Britain stands at present
Dying businesses
The crazies who backed Britain (Rees Mogg/Dyson immediately ulled their money out Dyson into Singapore, Rees Mogg into European Irland (would you believe!!!)
In order to survive, the Tory Party had to bung a terrorist linked party a billion of the taxpayers money
So they could survive in parliament they have elected a former foreign secretary who is a racist and whose diplomatic skills caused a woman journalist to e locked away in an Iranian prison, where she appears to be dying of the treatment she is receiving
His private life is such that his neighbours have to call the police to stop him beating the shit out of his partner
Those who elected him Prime minister refuse to back him and are intending to remove him with a vote of no confidence
He is intending to over-ride Parliament if he can’t get his way and is now in the pocket of a disgraced ex politician who got Brexit through with th aid of a faked racist poster showing Britain being invaded by foreigners
Major businesses are abandoning Britain y the dozen, the economy is in decline and recession is now a reality
And Britain is no nearer leaving Europe than it was after the referendum

Isn’t it a shame they stopped making the carry on films – Carry O Britannia could be an Oscar Winner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 05:56 PM

If dyson ulled his money to singapore I wonder how he is the third highest individual taxpayer in the UK?

His private life is such that his neighbours have to call the police to stop him beating the shit out of his partner
Really you must have been told more than the mainstream media, or are you simply making it up as usual. The accusation is libel you realise.

You really do post nonsense. As well as spellcheck perhaps you should invest in fact check.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 06:37 PM

Well the groundswell is that there is no mandate for no deal and that any enforcement of no deal would be unconstitutional, undemocratic and would render its executor toast. I want him to be toast but I don't want the other bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 06:57 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Well the groundswell is that there is no mandate for no deal and that any enforcement of no deal would be unconstitutional, undemocratic and would render its executor toast. I want him to be toast but I don't want the other bits.

I don't know if the stereotype of the ostrich putting it's head in the sand is really a fact in nature, but your refusal to acknowledge what is actually enshrined in law reminds me of it. No deal does not have to be enforced. It already has been. By Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 07:55 PM

No it hasn't. Maybe you live in a country other than the UK. How would I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 02:58 AM

Stanron, there is no mandate for a no deal brexit. There is obviously no mandate amongst MPs and the question of no deal has not been put to the electorate. So just who is giving BoJo this mandate? No mandate = unconstitutional and undemocratic as stated. He may be acting with a mandate to leave the EU, but I doubt it anyone believes there is a majority for a no deal brexit anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:30 AM

I am not arguing that Parliament, as a whole, wants a no deal exit. My point is that, as things stand and if no further legislation is passed, on the first of September we will have left the EU without an exit agreement. The law stating this has already been passed. Guess who passed it. Parliament passed it!

Now, if Parliament wants to prevent a no deal exit, Parliament will have to alter the legislation it has already passed!

And these are the people some of you insist know better than us and should be allowed to tell us what is good for us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:31 AM

"Carry O Britannia"
Should have been "Carry on Brexit" of course - posted in a hurry

BRITAIN STANDING ON HER OWN TWO FEET
PATRIOT TO THE WALLET

FLAG-WAGGERS UNITE

A £TRILLION LEAVING BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:54 AM

It is true, that in order to prevent catastrophe, Parliament need to pu aside their differences, unite around a temporary leader such as Ken Clarke, and pass legislation. Then we can maybe get the country back on track. If they do not do that, catastrophe looms. In such a case we would indeed be better off with direct rule from Brussels, although I don't think Brussels is set up to do that, sadly.

We had a similar situation in 1688. A despotic monarch had set out to crush all opposition, and had just convened the Bloody Assize. Parliament invited the Dutch in to restore order and put the country back on the right track. Discontent rumbled on for decades, but in hindsight it was clearly the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:14 AM

What a good idea, David C. Let's get the Dutch in as soon as we can. Everything will be far more laid back than it is now :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

Of course if we crash out no 35billion wings its way to Brussels and French farmers will take a subsidy cut. With yellow vests still on the prowl, revolting French farmers and Germany galloping into recession,
the EU will find that singing "All things bright and beautiful" simply will not hack it! Then there are slight problems in Italy, and shares in Deutsche Bank are on a journey to the center of the earth.
We really are better off out of the fiasco.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:01 AM

That money has to be paid, come what may. It has been agreed, and it is owed. If the UK tries to renege on its debts, it will be shut out of all financial markets for good. And probably cut off as well, there is no way anything can get in or out of the UK without crossing EU waters or airspace.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:14 AM

Talk past him, David, not to him. You know where that always leads us. We're doing quite well at the moment.

A no-deal brexit will result in thousands of farms going out of business. Tariffs on exports and a massive drop in subsidies will see to that. The leader of the US farming lobby has said that we will have to accept US standards in order to have a deal. That means not only chlorine-washed chicken (which allows US producers to get away with lower hygiene and welfare standards in the production chain) but also GM produce and hormone-fed meat. We can't compete with that. They'll have us by the short 'n' curlies. Sovereignty lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:16 AM

The remainers get more hysterical with every passing day!


and here is some more nonsense:
Hickory, dickory, dock,
The mouse ran up the clock;
The clock struck one,
And down he run,
Hickory, dickory, dock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:23 AM

Compo's cunning plan to become PM by stealth/coup is not well received by some.

Anna Soubry MP?
@Anna_Soubry
1/4 I am disappointed Jeremy Corbyn did not include me in his letter especially as there are five MP members of our party.
Our exclusion and the preference for a General Election rather than an immediate People’s Vote leads me to conclude this is nothing more than a stunt.

Meanwhile we have a few more weeks of the silly season while they all squabble amongst themselves.
The Brexiteers are wisely keeping their powder dry for the main event.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:25 AM

"Talk past him, David, not to him"
Amen to that
What I can't understand is why the Brexiteers here with degrees of intelligence don't care enough about Britain to even deny what is happening to Britain
I was speaking to my Welsh optician a couple of days ago - he is now panicking about what is happening to our future as Brits living in Ireland
He said Brexteets he has spoken to seem to have taken the three wisew monkeys stance, see nowt, hear nowt, say nowt
I learned recently that I have lost some of the benefits we were given as pensioners in expectation of Britain crashing out - there are several million of us all over Europe now in the same boat
Many will be forced to return to Britain jobless ad possibly homeless
The way employment now works in Britain, they'll be lucky if they can get jobs stacking shelves in Tescos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 06:25 AM

If they are pensioners why would they need a job stacking shelves? They will get a pension entitlement of a guaranteed minimum even if their NI contributions are incomplete. More project fear!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 06:29 AM

Much more sensible to consult the oracle than to rely on tittle tattle!


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nationals-in-the-eu-benefits-and-pensions-in-a-no-deal-scenario

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 06:49 AM

SIGH.....!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 07:05 AM

MORE PANIC-MONGERING FROM THE LOONEY LEFT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 19 - 03:51 AM

HERE'S BREXIT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:16 PM

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has insisted he should be caretaker prime minister to stop a 'disastrous' no-deal Brexit. His proposal has been knocked back by Lib-dems and pro-remain Tories.
It has the makings of a new Carry On film
. "Carry on Squabbling"
Meanwhile Tic Toc !

Ecclesiastes 10:2
A wise man's heart inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM

Somebody fancies himself an aristocrat?

From here

The French Revolutionary era was where the terms Left-wing politics and Right-wing politics first originated.

The reason for the terms to become used at all was the seating of the ancien régime of France at that time. The aristocrats sat on the right, and the commoners sat on the left. So these terms evolved to mean so that right-wing politics refer to politics for aristocratic and royal interests, while left-wing politics refer to republicanism, socialism, and civil liberties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 06:02 AM

Back to Brexit
From this morning's Sunday Times

Jim Carroll

OPERATION CHAOS: Whitehall’s secret no-deal plan leaked
The Sunday Times obtains the government’s classified Yellowhammer’report in full
Rosamund Urwin and Caroline Wheeler

Britain faces shortages of fuel, food and medicine, a three-month melt¬down at its ports, a hard border with Ireland and rising costs in social care in the event of a no-deal Brexit, according to an unprece¬dented leak of government docu¬ments that lay bare the gaps in contingency planning.
The documents, which set out the most likely aftershocks of a no-deal Brexit rather than worst- case scenarios, have emerged as the UK looks increasingly likely to crash out of the EU without a deal.
Compiled this month by the Cab¬inet Office under the codename Operation Yellowhammer, the dos¬sier offers a rare glimpse into the covert planning being carried out by the government to avert a cata¬strophic collapse in the nation’s infrastructure.
The file, marked “official-sensitive” - requiring security clearance on a “need to know” basis - is remarkable because it gives a comprehensive assessment of the UK’s readiness for a no-deal Brexit.
It states that the public and busi¬nesses remain largely unprepared for no deal and that growing “ÉU exit fatigue” has hampered contin¬gency planning which has stalled since the UK’s original departure date in March.
A senior Whitehall source said: “This is not Project Fear - this is the most realistic assessment of what the public face with no deal. These are likely, basic, reasonable scenarios - not the worst case.”
The revelations include:

* The UK government expects the return of a hard border in Ireland as current plans to avoid widespread checks will prove “unsustainable”; this may spark protests, road block¬ages and “direct action”

* Logjams caused by months of border delays could “affect fuel distribution”, potentially disrupting the fuel supply in London and the southeast of England

* Up to 85% cf lorries using the main Channel crossings “may not be ready” for French customs and could face delays of up to 2 1/2 days

* Significant disruption at ports will last up to three months before the flow of traffic “improves” to 50-70% of the current rate

* Petrol import tariffs, which the government has set at 0%, will “inadvertently” lead to the closure of two oil refineries, 2,000 job losses, widespread strike action and disruptions to availability

* Passenger delays at EU airports, St Pancras, Eurotunnel and Dover

* Medical supplies will “be vulnerable to severe extended delays” as three-quarters of the UK’s medicines enter the country via the main Channel crossings

*The availability of fresh food will
be reduced and prices will rise. This th could hit “vulnerable groups” Sp

*Potential clashes between UK wl and European Economic Area fishing vessels amid predictions that 282 ships will sail in British waters illegally on Brexit day        
* Protests across the UK, which Ui may “require significant amounts of police resources]

* Rising costs will hit social care, with “smaller providers impacted within 2-3 months and larger providers 4-6 months after exit”

* Gibraltar will face delays of more than four hours at the border with Spain “for at least a few months”, which are likely to “adversely impact” its economy

The revelations come as Boris Johnson signals that he would set a date for a general election after the UK has left the EU if Jeremy Corbyn succeeds in a vote of no confidence - preventing rebels from being able to stop a no-deal Brexit.
Johnson is preparing to hold talks with France’s president, Emmanuel Macron, and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, ahead of this week’s G7 summit in Biarritz. But No 10 was last night playing down any prospect of a Brexit breakthrough and Germany believes no deal is “highly likely”.
The leak of the YeUowhammer dossier underlines the frustration within Whitehall over the lack of transparency surrounding preparations for leaving the EU. “Successive UK governments have a long history of failing to prepare their citizens to be resilient for their own emergencies,” said a Cabinet Office source.
The absence of a clear picture of the UK’s future relationship with the EU has hindered preparations as it “does not provide a concrete situation for third parties to prepare for”, the document states.
Some of the bleakest predictions relate to goods crossing the French border. The file says that on the first day of no deal between “50% and 85% of HGVs travelling via the short channel straits [the main crossings between France and England] may not be ready for French customs, reducing the flow of freight lorries to between 40- 60%”
of current levels”. Unready lorries will “fill the ports and block flow” and the worst disruption to the main crossings could last for “up to three months before it improves by a significant level, to around 50-70%” of current levels.
Despite Johnson repeatedly saying during the Tory leadership cam¬paign that there will be “clean drinking water” in the event of no deal, the document raises the possibility that a failure in the chemical supply chain could “affect up to 100,000s of people”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM

This talk of an interim government is premature. There are hoops that still have to be jumped through first.

However.

Here's what I really think. This country is still just about a democracy. If the government falls, any interim administration should first be attempted by the leader of the opposition and no-one else. The people who are saying they won't work under Corbyn are playing into the hands of Johnson and will guarantee a no-deal brexit. Soft-right Tories such a Soubry, Grieve and co are letting silly ideology get in the way of the country's best interests (which, of course, they claim to recognise). The idiot-leader of the LibDems is labouring under the time-honoured LibDem delusion that the LibDems are going to be in charge anytime soon so is stupidly distancing herself from Corbyn (but note her rapid back-tracking). Yep, the LibDems who lied about tuition fees and enabled ten years of misery for the working classes and who made brexit possible by shoring up Cameron. The LibDems, unprincipled Tories in reality, who will do absolutely ANYTHING to get their feet under the cabinet table. And they think we won't mention it in the next election campaign.

Unfortunately, though it's yet to be electorally tested, I think that Corbyn's star has fallen. There's no time to replace him just now, so we work with him now or we get a no-deal brexit. There's nothing for it. No-one has to promise to enact Labour policies. There will be an election very soon in any case. It would be a single-issue administration, an issue on which the overwhelming majority of MPs supposedly agree. Time for the holding of noses. It won't be for long.

One last thing. The people who are proposing Harriet Harman (fer chrissake) or Keir Starmer as alternatives to Jezza are liars. If these right-wing ex-Blairites get their way, they know that Corbyn will be fatally undermined and won't be able to pick up the reins again. The ulterior motives are flying around all over the place in our politics. You wouldn't think there was a national emergency on, would you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 06:50 AM

Johnson has already said he will over-ride Parliament to get Brexit through - bang goes your 'democracy' with one bing of the tweet key
This secret document is preparation for a coup, in my opinion
I'm beginning to think the promises of more prisons, longer sentences and the returns of practices long abandoned, like Suss, are not just sops to the electorate - they are moves to strengthen the position of the establishment (which, in the past, has been used to bring the members of that establishment into line with the wishes of the top people)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 07:49 AM

Democracy states we should have left the EU long ago. Fact!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 07:54 AM

Wrong Iains.

A small majority of the people who voted said they wanted to leave.

Not a majority of the people please note.

At no time do I ever recall a time frame being laid down and agreed to.

That I think is a figment of your imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 08:11 AM

The Brish Govenment are now preparing to take emergency measures because Brexit has proved an overwhelming fuck-up - fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 09:22 AM

No counter argument shaw?

A small majority of the people who voted said they wanted to leave.
Not a majority of the people please note.

Leave         17,410,742         51.89%
Remain         16,141,241         48.11%
Valid votes         33,551,983         99.92%
Invalid or blank votes         25,359         0.08%
Total votes         33,577,342         100.00%
Registered voters/turnout         46,500,001         72.21%
A clear and distinct majority. Remember a majority of just one is required.

At no time do I ever recall a time frame being laid down and agreed to. I do!


Invocation of Article 50 occurred on 29 March 2017, when Sir Tim Barrow, the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the European Union, formally delivered by hand a letter signed by Prime Minister Theresa May to Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council in Brussels. The letter also contained the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Atomic Energy Community (EAEC or Euratom). This means that the UK was scheduled to cease being a member of the EU at the end of 29 March 2019 Brussels time (UTC+1)

Facts dear boy, FACTS! and more facts below


And it must be remembered that MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.
They backed the government's European Union Bill(ie Article 50), supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
But the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 09:53 AM

Martial law here we come, it would appear
It is to be noted that the opinions of the people wouldn't be worth a tuppeny fuck if it didn't coincide with those of the Brexiteers, as has been demonstrated admirably here - the hardships of working people now being admitted and planned for by the government make that quite plain
When the people attempted to protect their jobs or demand a living wage they became 'the enemy within"
If they elected a government which attempted to better peoples' conditions, I have little doubt that the State would follow the example of Thatcher's friend Pinochet, and turn out the troops - 'The Iron Lady confirmed this herself when she described this mass murderer "a true democrat"
Johnson is already girding the musicles of the forces of law and order to keep the people whose opinions are so important when it comes to Brexit in their place
It's a crying shame that the more intelligent of the Brexiteers on this forum have refused to take a proper part in this debate and we are left with what we are left with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 10:01 AM

INTERESTING HINDSIGHT IN VIEW OF TODAY'S REVELATIONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 11:09 AM

An interesting poll result from Yougov
(From the font of accurate tidings, The one and only Guido)

https://order-order.com/2019/08/17/yougov-brits-prefer-no-deal-brexit-pm-corbyn/

More people prefer no deal to Compo the cabbage patch king!
What a delight it must be, to be so popular!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 11:26 AM

I posted a little while ago suggesting that we ignore the troll and talk past him. This is the advice that all three moderators have been giving us, some public, some private, and they do use the word troll. My post was deleted. Not my gig, not moaning, just observing a bit of an oddity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

The news over here is concentrating on the fact that this document proves that Jonson is lying about a hard border
He say there is no need for one - the now published document says a hard border is inevitably
Methinks Brexit-man speaks with forked tongue - but we all knew that already
The government are now running around like headless chickens claiming the document is a 'worst case scenario' - nowhere in the document does it state that
More lies
How low are these people going to drag Britain down and how long are the decent British people going to allow them to do so?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 03:04 PM

"This means that the UK was SCHEDULED to cease being a member of the EU at the end of 29 March 2019 Brussels time (UTC+1)"

My capital Iains, it was an asperation, not enshrined in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 05:05 PM

Wrong!The departure date was enshrined in law until changed by a statutory instrument.

Section 20(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018,defined ‘exit day’ as 29 March 2019 at 11pm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 05:24 PM

The Express has a wonderful summary of the remainiacs posturing.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1167131/brexit-EU-news-comment-Grieve-Hammond-Remain-leave-Baldwin

"Welcome to the worldview of Britain's new and appalling breed of anti-politician - the McDonnells, Hammonds, Grieves and Corbyns who scorn your opinion and hold your democracy in contempt. Oddly they appear to have no party allegiance. These political cockroaches scuttle into the daylight from all corners, under Tory floorboards, behind Labour cupboards and beneath Lib Dem rocks, seemingly united in only one thing - a crazed determination to overturn the democratic decision to leave the European Union.

So this week we find ourselves in the jaw-dropping position of having senior, grown-up politicians seriously proposing Jeremy Corbyn should seize power in some sort of cockeyed coup d'etat.

Jeremy Corbyn. VHS video in human form – an outdated, irrelevant, throwback to the 1980s, no longer of any use to anyone, and superseded by far better alternatives.

Everyone knows this.

Even Jeremy Corbyn knows this.

Jeremy Corbyn, an ageing, unreconstructed Marxist who still thinks he's fighting Thatcher and supporting the miners. Jeremy Corbyn, who now runs a party too gutless to make a decision on Brexit and too riven with anti-semitism to ever be electable. Jeremy Corbyn, an Islington cous-cous eater who wouldn't know a Scunthorpe steel mill or a Glasgow shipyard if he fell over one."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM

Freedom of movement will end immediately after Brexit is declared
Patel the main instigator - devastating for those living in Northern Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:14 AM

As I posted earlier in this thread, a lot of nonsense is spoken about what will and will not happen after Brexit.

Jim posted "Freedom of movement will end immediately after Brexit is declared
Patel the main instigator - devastating for those living in Northern Ireland"

As things stand and as indeed they stood before we joined the EU, movement between the UK and Ireland is governed by Common Travel Area agreement and, as of today, there has been no mentioned of that changing after Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:25 AM

Just been the major feature on the BBC news R.D.
I don't understand it either
The last border watchtower was dismantled in 2006 which "ended the border as a visible entity" but it still remains a border - I'm assuming it has something to do with that fact
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:36 AM

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom

From the link above

"On 8 May 2019, the Irish and UK governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding (pdf) reaffirming the Common Travel Area and identifying the rights and privileges of Irish and UK citizens within the CTA. It also reaffirms the commitment to maintain the CTA following Brexit"

and

"The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union (EU) will not affect the rights of Irish citizens and UK citizens within the Common Travel Area. The right to live, work and access public services in the Common Travel Area will be protected, regardless of the outcome of the Brexit negotiations."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:40 AM

It seems the address was too long for the "Make a link"

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:57 AM

I am not commenting on what anyone else has said, but we may be affected by the business of Priti Patel's idea.

My Italian daughter-in-law's father is visiting her from his home in Milan at the start of November. It is completely unclear whether he will be able to. In time, I would imagine a visitor's Visa would sort it.   But as of today, you cannot apply for one if you live in the EU. And even if you found a way to apply the site says "You should get a decision on your Visa within 3 weeks." Somehow I don't see that getting dramatically faster around the magic date. So unless all this is sorted by mid October, the visit to see his grand-daughter looks as if it might be off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 10:39 AM

DMcG - I’m fairly sure that a lot of things people take for granted at the moment will disappear or become far more difficult after The Blond Buffoon-Puppet has driven us over the cliff-edge of a hard Brexit come Hallowe’en.

Reminds me of all the daft farmers who, almost to a man, voted Leave, and were then surprised and shocked to learn that the rotten, mean EU would no longer give them their EU subsidy hand-outs once we’re out!

You couldn’t make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 01:17 PM

Councils are now preparing for food shortages following Brexit
Worst effected are people on special diets, schools, hospitals, care homes
Some councils are planning for food rationing Hastings has been mentioned in particular
Otherwise known as 'standing on your own two feet'
YOU'VE GORRA LAFF, AIN'CHA

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 04:58 PM

there was a quote from the express 'newspaper' above at 5.24. aside from the usual squabbling on here is anyone else seriously disturbed about the way our country is going. if it was the deranged and vicious insults of an individual that would be troubling and a worry for the writer but this is a newspaper opinion?! jeez, we're in a mess here - i listened to a radioo discussion last night when 2 anxious parents (different calls) were describing their difficulties in getting medicines for their children (already happening due to stockpiling) 2 callers followed this by completely ignoring these calls and went on about project fear and 'not one iota of worry' about no deal. of course, one of the callers was a tory mp. it's gone beyond politics this situation - and beyond humanity in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 03:06 AM

"went on about project fear"
This level of argument describes perfectly the discussion of the few Brexiteers on this forum perfectly - a total refusal to engage in what is obviously happening - instead, the pushing of a aet line - it's like trying to argue with a recorded message
Theresa May had it down to a fine art - some of her best examples are now standard fodder for 'Have I Got News For You'
NICE SUMMING-UP HERE
ENTERTAINING ONE HERE
You've gorra larf
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:07 AM

The Remain fanatics have so far been subject to cognitive dissonance, but are now collapsing into madness. Well exemplified by their strict adherence to the Abbacus school of maths where losing a referendum wins.
Their delusions know no bounds.

http://commentcentral.co.uk/remainer-cognitive-dissonance-has-collapsed-into-madness/

Tis a joy to behold !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:54 AM

Further to my previous post about EU farm subsidies, does anyone remember all those farmers with posters on their farm gates exhorting us to vote ‘Leave’? Loads of them in the rural area I live in....

Words like ‘Country’ and ‘Bumpkins’ spring to mind!

What on Earth did they expect?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 05:48 AM

If all farm supports are withdrawn immediately on Brexit then all sectors of British farming will face immediate bankruptcy. Obviously the deranged remainiacs believe this implicitly.
This will not happen. I suggest you read the expert's views and educate yourself.

The CAP has created a system of subsidies that has created a dependency on handouts. With an average payment of 250eu/hectare it is a nice little earner. The entire system needs a comprehensive overhaul
Even after Brexit subsidies will continue. They may be radically overhauled but they will still exist.

Simply another example of project fear by the unthinking!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 06:38 AM

I see on BBC News just now that it’s reported that our Village-Idiot incompetent PM’s victim, Nazanin Zaghawi Radcliffe, is now enduring conditions in prison which have ‘worsened significantly’, and that she is no longer allowed telephone contact with her husband.

Why on earth would anyone trust that moronic buffoon, who couldn’t even be bothered to understand the circumstances of Mrs. Radcliffe’s arrest and incarceration by a regime known to deal very harshly with those it considers to be its enemies, to successfully negotiate something so hugely important to us all as our departure from the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM

Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall. That is what our resident right wingers believed was OK for mining, steelworks,manufacturing etc etc so why not farming.

Simple.


Having lit the blue touch paper I will retire to a safe distance!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:00 AM

Farmers viable for what? A lot of payments are for maintaining the landscape in a state suitable for tourism. Sheep farmers can't make money for wool and not all that much for meat but the sheep gaze the hills and make them look pretty. For this they get paid and why not?.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM

Well, for a start it is not a natural landscape. Secondly nature is pretty good at creating it's own wonderful landscapes. Three letting nature do it would be a lot cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:27 AM

"Nazanin Zaghawi Radcliffe,"
The irony of this, as with the Iranian prisoner, Aras Imiri (and possibly the hero of the 'illegal' Grenfell disaster) is that, as things are heading in Britain if by some miracle, they escaped or weer freed and tried to re-enter their home country, they would probably be incarcerated in one of those inhuman refugee camps until their case was heard
Refugees from terror stand to be major victims in Brexit's 'Brave New Britain'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:29 AM

If you want a natural landscape, whatever that is, first get rid of human beings. I guess that would have to include UK lefties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 07:35 AM

I thought you were discussing farms and farmlands Stanron. I presumed you would be in favour of a "laissez faire" approach.

If farmers are not good enough to turn a profit from their lands let them get on a bike and find work.

Please try to keep to the topic eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:29 AM

Even the BBC receives EU funding. As does the EU Arms industry.
How many factories relocated to eastern Europe from the UK with the aid of EU subsidies?
There is no point in taking agriculture in isolation. You need to consider thebig picture.

Rather like Brexit and the EU march towards:
Federalism
Common foreign policy
common defence force
harmonisation and centralisation of Taxation policies
control moving more and more to the center.

As Gorbachov reputedly said:

The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM

Iains wrote: As Gorbachov reputedly said:

The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe

Perhaps that's why the UK Lefties are so keen on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 09:31 AM

"Perhaps that's why the UK Lefties are so keen on it."
Fre Russia - now the most unequal of European State, and the most dangerous since Nazism, is a great exampleof Western freedom and democracy - innit ?
AS FOR ARMS SALES
MOST NOTABLY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 09:41 AM

Raggytash wrote: I thought you were discussing farms and farmlands Stanron. I presumed you would be in favour of a "laissez faire" approach.

From Encyclopaedia Britannica

Laissez-faire, (French: “allow to do”), policy of minimum governmental interference in the economic affairs of individuals and society.

How can I be in favour of laissez-faire and leaving the EU. That would not be consistent. I am in favour of less government and that is consistent with leaving the EU.

With regard to sheep farming, laissez-faire would be change as little as possible so, as the UK pays the EU subsidy anyway, the smallest change is to continue subsidies to our sheep farms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 10:02 AM

'Laissez-faire'
The policy that turned a Famine into a holocaust in 19th century Ireland
Taking Boris as an example, for the Tories 'less government' seems to mean the dictatorship of having one man in charge and a parliament with no say in the running of the country
Haven't they dried that ELSEWHERE ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

"A lot of payments are for maintaining the landscape in a state suitable for tourism. Sheep farmers can't make money for wool and not all that much for meat but the sheep gaze the hills and make them look pretty."

Odd, then, that the farmers who get paid by far the most in subsidies are the multimillionaire barley barons in lowland England who have turned vast tracts of countryside into dismal, wildlife-free monoculture deserts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 01:12 PM

BREXIT THREAT TO REFINERIES CONFIRMED
Tusk says those opposing the Backstop are supporting a hard border
He poined out that the British Parliament voted for the Backstop and Boris Johnson supported it
Boris sulks and skulks away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 05:10 PM

Odd, then, that the farmers who get paid by far the most in subsidies are the multimillionaire barley barons

Not really. the average farm size (94.7 ha) is nearly six times higher than the EU average (16.1 ha) But according to Saville's(2016)the average farm size(combinable crops) is just over 300 hectares.
30% of the direct payment allocation, paid per hectare, is linked to three environmentally-friendly farming practices: crop diversification, maintaining permanent grassland and dedicating 5 % of arable land to environmentally friendly measures (so-called 'ecological focus areas').
England has applied a basic payment at a flat rate according to three different types of land (defined as 'non-severely disadvantaged areas','lowlands & severely disadvantaged areas' and 'upland,other   moorland and moorland');
The more land you have the more dosh you get but arable farms, as explained. are larger and require greater capitilization to operate.
With sheep all you need is fencing (unless heft)and a dog or two.
A sheep costs nominally £100, a combine £125,000. There is also far more financial risk in arable farming.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:28 PM

May I refer people back to my opening question which was:

"Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall. That is what our resident right wingers believed was OK for mining, steelworks,manufacturing etc etc so why not farming"

I can't help but notice you have all studiously avoided addressing this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 08:56 PM

Well in case you didn't get it, my answer questioned your use of the word 'viable'. If they maintain landscape in a way the Government deems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:21 AM

And is that not also the case with, say, the steel industry Stanron? If they maintain the population in a way the government seems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:45 AM

"Surely if farms are not viable they should be allowed to go to the wall."
Not sure I agree with that Rag
"Viable" means profitable in the world we live in, which doesn't mean 'necessary'
Food, like housing, and many other basic needs of life, have become investable commodities rather than necessities, and as such, their production depends on their making a smaller and smaller group of people ricer and richer
I have become appalled at what this has done, both to the quality of our staple foods and to the planet as a whole, summarised perfectly in mass-produced, shit-tasting cotton-wool bread wrapped in plastic which sticks in the gullet of both the consumer and the planet.
We ere regular visitors to Walter Pardon in North Norfolk and over the time we were, watched as the Multinationals ripped up th hedgerows, making ten fields into one in order to make it easy for their monster machines   
Within 10/15 years the East Wind had ripped away all the topsoil, making a once rich agricultural area into the holidaymaker-reliant desert it has become and devastating the lives of the people living there
Maintaining Britain's farming heritage is not a romantic notion; it is part of keeping our planet in good health for future generations
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:26 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: And is that not also the case with, say, the steel industry Stanron? If they maintain the population in a way the government seems desirable, then supporting them makes sense and they can be considered viable. Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?

Why do you personalise this stuff? It's nothing to do with belief or doctrine. Mine or anyone else's. It's actually to do with rules. EU rules say that it is unfair for one country to support it's industries above a certain level.

So I do think it's a good idea to support the steel industry workers. The EU rules against it. That is one, among many, of the reasons I think we should leave.

Other EU countries break these rules apparently without penalty. However the UK is a gross contributor to the EU budget. We are a cash cow to be milked. If we broke the rules we would be fined heavily, because we can afford to pay. That is another, among many, of the reasons I think we should leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM

Why do you personalise this stuff?

Because it was a personal question. "Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?"

You answered the question. What's the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:49 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: "Or do you, as many of your party do, believe that maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people?"

This makes your attack an attack on me. If I believed "maintaining the countryside is more desirable than helping people" that would make me appear inhumane and my opinions could be rejected because of my monstrous nature.

It's not that I object to such an attack because it is, or could be in any way, effective. I object to it because it's childish. It happens a lot on this forum from the UK lefties.

"You say this and that means you think that and therefor you are a monster!"

It's playground stuff. I would prefer a more grown up approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 04:31 AM

Stan, it was a question. A question is not an attack. Don’t be silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 04:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron - PM
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

"My appreciation is that the idiot is you, Steve."

Fairly personal, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 05:37 AM

Can I suggest that this line might well close this thread down
Just a thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:30 AM

This makes your attack an attack on me.

It wasn't an attack Stanron, it was a question. Are you feeling so insecure that you perceive any question as an attack or is it just a bad day? (Another question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:35 AM

As to your comment "It happens a lot on this forum from the UK lefties." I shall let that stand but if you believe it is in any way the adult line of reasoning you seem to be advocating then I can assure you, you are wrong.

But Jim is right. Let's get back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 06:39 AM

Brexiteers have stopped having good days, Dave. Have you noticed how all their optimism about super duper trade deals and how the little UK is going to kick world ass once we're out has somehow seeped away? Do or die? Do AND die I think the poet actually said...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:03 AM

"Taking Back Control" (with apologies to Lord Alf):

Forward the Brexit Brigade!’
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the leaver knew
Boris had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do AND die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the seventeen million
Taking the rest of us poor sods with 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:28 AM

Within 10/15 years the East Wind had ripped away all the topsoil, making a once rich agricultural area into the holidaymaker-reliant desert it has become and devastating the lives of the people living there

Bit of an exaggeration I would say. The pedological literature does not support such an extreme view, even that relating to north Norfolk.
In the last forty years a lot more has been learnt about soils,their erosion and means of mitigating it. In tandem, legislation on watercourses has forced additional remedial measures on landowners. Far more attention is paid to cultivation techniques on slopes. Techniques such as over sowing with a cross slot drill enable seeds to be inserted through an existing cover crop. Soil erosion occurs naturally through mass wasting and has been accentuated ever since man first started farming. Growing crops comes at a price. Not growing crops comes at a price. You starve. What choice are you going to make?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:00 AM

Well I just nipped out to the shops and it all kicked off. Leading questions with implicit accusations are, to me, an attack. Not a million miles from "Are you still beating your wife?" or, put to UK lefties, "are you all still anti-Semites?"

In your posting

Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM

Check which word was emboldened.

Incidentally, I'm not a member of any political party. As for Brexit, we are in a state of 'wait and see'. For all your (collectively) dire prognostications we may not know anything before Sept 1. And it is just as likely to be good news as it is to be bad news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:13 AM

Whatever.

Interesting that we are still being told the news is as likely to be good as bad. In over 3 years of asking for good news there has been no response. How is the news as likely to be good going off that track record? And, yes, this is now back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:17 AM

"For all your (collectively) dire prognostications we may not know anything before Sept 1"
Damn - I thought the leaked report came from the Government !!!

No responsible government can - or has ever tried to adopt a 'wait and see" policy, vertainly not on this scale
The dfact that supporters of Brexit constantly put this up as an argument is confirmation enough that this "keep 'em all out" enterprise hs been a massive leap in the dark from day one
Crazier and crazier by the minute
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:52 AM

A sensible view


https://capx.co/no-deal-issues-are-real-and-solving-them-is-key-to-a-successful-brexit/

Takes a balanced view,unlike the hysterical mumbo jumbo faithfully repeated here by remainiacs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 10:05 AM

CAPX
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 10:24 AM

The Boris bounce versus the compo corpse.
Spiffing news from the last survey results: Boris has taken a lead of 14 points over Labour in a new Kantar TNS poll, with the party jumping by 17% since May. What a lad! You can read all about it on Guido's site,
the font of truth and editorial accuracy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM

Fount.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 01:03 PM

Stoppit, John...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

Sorry...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 02:11 PM

Font as in once dipped in it you are baptized into a life of truth and righteousness and drop all those foolish leftie ideas.
(Remember Ecclesiastes 10:2)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 07:36 AM

The Common EU Agricultural policy.
" Oxfam, not exactly famed for its opposition to government spending, calculated in 2006 that a British household had to pay an additional £832 a year for food because of CAP (it should be noted that another study for eastern and southern European countries that just entered the EU found a smaller inflationary effect on consumer prices). Most hit are, of course, low-income households, where higher prices on day-to-day goods have the greatest effect on their overall means. This is the same scheme that created the milk lakes and butter mountains and still exports at a loss to Africa to undercut and destroy local farm enterprises

Worse still, Brussels’ protectionism seems to explicitly favour big business over small and medium-sized farmers. The Heinrich-Böll Foundation, a think tank associated with the German Green Party, found that between 2003 and 2013, over 25% of farms in Europe went out of business. And indeed, it is mostly small farms that vanish, while bigger corporations get even bigger.

When it was established in 1962 the original purpose of CAP was to secure that there was enough food for Europeans on a continent that was still wrought from war. By the 1980s, CAP accounted for over two-thirds of the entire EU budget.

While the share of the overall budget has since gone down – to 38% under the current six-year budget – it is still the largest financial program of the union. In addition, despite having decreased in relative terms, CAP payments still increased in absolute numbers until 2013.

At 38% of the budget, European taxpayers send more than €58bn to farmers each year – a shocking amount if one considers that farmers only make up 3% of the EU’s total population and are responsible for no more than 6% of its GDP.

Indeed, while the original goal of CAP was to enable farmers to feed Europe after decades of conflict, now it’s Europe that is feeding farmers through its massive subsidies. Their businesses often only survive because they are effectively bailed out – unlike big financial institutions, these are not one-off bailouts, but day in, day out.
If all of this sounds like protectionism and an illiberal economic policy it’s because that’s exactly what it is. That much was also clear from the strongly expressed opposition to a recent free trade agreement with Latin American countries from French President Emmanuel Macron and his colleagues from Ireland, Belgium, and Poland – all countries where farmers are profiting much from CAP. Politicians across Europe are fond of telling us that farmers need “protection” from the scourge of cheap imports, as if consumers’ interest in cheaper food were of no consequence at all.

An example of the madness:
Richard Findlay is a farmer in the North York Moors National Park between York and Newcastle. As the Financial Times reported last year, Mr Findlay garners a profit of around £12,000 a year by grazing some seven hundred sheep. But even that £12,000 is quite a lot if one looks closer. Indeed, if it weren’t for subsidies delivered by the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), Mr Findlay would be facing a loss of £32,000. Simply put, this farm would not exist if it were not for Brussels."

---

Please furnish attribution for any information you copy-paste. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 08:37 AM

Unlinked quote traceable back to Pokemon site - a shade up on Guido, I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM

Sorry - couldn't resist
Won't happen again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM

Boris is meeting Macron today. I would suggest he offers him a long vacation to St. Helena, then we can focus on the important work of Brexit.
and Merkel has to face the fact that fears of a German recession are rising after Europe's biggest economy posted its second-lowest manufacturing readout in six years. Wont be helped by all those German cars not coming to Britain if they continue their silly games.
Ireland is finally waking up to the fact that playing the EU's useful idiot has consequences.

Ireland has urged businesses to review supply chains and their strategies for dealing with UK markets.
Firms should monitor possible drastic changes to transport, logistics, certification, regulation, licensing, contracts and data management ahead of Britain’s scheduled departure.
The warning comes as firms are businesses are asked to monitor their cash flows, currency and make sure banking affairs are in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 11:52 AM

Government report with all the wonderful benefits of no-deal Brexit remains steadfastly unleaked...!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 12:48 PM

With his usual flair for tact and diplomacy BoJo has managed to rub his French counterpart up the wrong way. Johnson mocks Macron.

Sounds like just the right sort of thing to do when you really need all the international support you can get. I guess he must have gone to Trump university.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 03:05 PM

It is hardly mocking napoleon macron to point out that his railways run predominantly on track from sunny Scunny's rolling mills(The industrial garden city.) This is a fact!

The contract was initially with British steel, then Cora and now Tata, and has been in existence since 1999. Up until the early 80s iron ore was mined locally mainly opencast and extracted up to nearly 5,000,000 tons a year. The last operating quarry the yarborough is named after the local landowner who has an estate nearby of only 113 square kilometers, or 27k acres)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 06:09 PM

So here's where we are. After three years and two months of sterile Tory failure, we have two months to go with politicians everywhere on summer holiday. Merkel sez backstop stays, end of. Macron sez backstop stays, end of. Johnson sez no deal with backstop. No backstop means almost certain border conflicts. Every economist worth their salt sez that brexit will be a disaster. There is no chance whatsoever of a trade deal with the US if we crash out without a deal leading to hard border, no backstop.

Beam me up, Scotty...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:03 AM

You should not forget that Trump is no fan of the WTO, and is unwilling to appoint a judge (Trump’s Search for Absolute Sovereignty Could Destroy the WTO)

So the idea we trade on WTO rules may collapse. The main reason we have to have the same tariffs for all countries is it is a consequence of WTO rules. But if we chose to breach those rules, it is not clear what could be done to prevent us. Sanctions of various kinds, certainly, but if the US and some other countries were prepared to ignore such sanctions they might not hold. The consequences for the world as everything collapses into a free-for-all on trade would be incalculable. But that would not dissuade Trump and probably not Cummings.

Not to mention Trump would be very happy for the UK to take the initial flak rather than the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 05:05 AM

A nice long relaxing holiday helps pass the time. Less need for proroguing Parliament.
TIC TOC !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 10:41 AM

Interesting article y'all might not have seen... https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/brexit-yellowhammer-no-deal.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 11:01 AM

The link only goes to an agree page and no further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 11:01 AM

OUR LOUT IN NUMBER TEN
Mkae ya proud to be British - dunnit!!
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:13 PM

If you believe the nonsense about yellowhammer/project fear, then I have a nice bridge I can sell you. One careful owner!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:34 PM

Isn't it strange how a GOVERNMENT sponsored report can suddenly become part of a fictional project fear.

Makes you wonder just what the Government know about the future of Brexit .......................... and if they don't know .....!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 03:36 PM

Isn't it strange how a GOVERNMENT sponsored report can suddenly become part of a fictional project fear.

No stranger than US plans to invade Canada(War plan Red)
Governments plan for all kinds of contingencies.
Only remainiacs regard the most extreme and unlikely scenarios as holy writ.
The rest of us get a little tired of endless permutations of the sky is falling. Just as well gullibility is not contagious, or requires incarceration. No doubt they also think coronation street is a documentary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 04:49 PM

Well, I've seen goalpost's moved many times on Mudcat and often in some very bizarre and tortuous manners and changes to threads.

What the **** a supposed US Government plan to "invade" Canada has to do with an OFFICIAL government report into the effects of Brexit is beyond me.

I referred to an OFFICIAL report created for the elected Government of our nation, commissioned by our elected representatives in order that they can plan for the future of the people of this country.

Yet one, at least, of our "brexiteers" deems it "project fear"

I know we are not supposed to cast aspersions on the mental capacity of other poster but you have to ask the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 05:15 PM

" but you have to ask the question"
Some of us think you don't Rag - not when it is so effortless that you have nothing to push against it
Why bother ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 05:53 PM

I was talking with a group of friends last night, one (at least) of whom is a strong Brexit supporter. He said "No one has read the Withdrawl Agreement..."

Figure raised. "Er, I have.'

He stopped at once. Perhaps he was being polite, or perhaps the idea anyone would read such a thing unless it was their job stunned him...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 03:30 AM

Now we seems to be in this somewhat fictious 30 day period to find a solution to the border problem, I think the EU should find an opportunity to make clear what is needed for an effective solution. (I say 'somewhat fictitious' because it has been written into every position statement and the withdrawal agreement that the backstop is cancelled if a solution is found, however much some parts of the media claim the PM has made some kind of breakthrough.)


Any border, hard, soft or technological, needs to achieve two things:

1. It need to permit goods and people who meet some rules to pass.
2.        It needs to prevent goods and people who do not meet those rules from passing.

Everything I have heard so far, like 'trusted trader schemes'. is about the first of those. No solution can be accpetable unless it also meets the second requirement: how does it prevent someone who tries to dodge the system crossing the border?

So it seems to me pointing out that both parts are needed for a solution before the PM turns up with a shiny folder stuffed with proposals that do not address the second would go some way to preventing Boris' obvious pitch to the UK "we presented lots of workable solutions and the nasty EU rejected them out of hand."

Now, I can't persuade the EU to do so. But I cab make this two-part requirement explicit here so none of our Brexiteers can simply say Boris's line: the UK brought lots of workable proposals but the EU rejected them. If they do, I will ask them how the proposals address that second requirement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 03:38 AM

I have no idea how I failed to copy the heading I wrote on that last bit, so here it is now:


Although we got the last thread closed again, we seem to be doing better this time at avoiding getting into spats, so I will get back to posting more regularly over what seems likely to be a crucial few months. There will be lulls when I am away on holiday during early September, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 04:03 AM

I referred to an OFFICIAL report created for the elected Government of our nation, commissioned by our elected representatives in order that they can plan for the future of the people of this country.

Yet one, at least, of our "brexiteers" deems it "project fear"

You illustrate the point I was making perfectly! Because a document is stamped official you take it as gospel truth. What part of contingency planning can you not understand?
Let me help you.

contingency: a future event or circumstance which is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty.
As an example let us consider the learned contributions of bankers and economists when forecasting the future event of Brexit. For added veracity I will point you towards two articles in the lefty rag the gruniard.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/02/economic-forecasting-flawed-science-data

I realise some of the concepts outlined may be a little too technical for your average lefty so I will summarize for you:

The forecasts of expert economists tend to be largely bullshit.

That you cannot appreciate these salient facts should be a concern for your mental capacity, not mine. So not so subtle digs as below are really not needed on this forum, although I do appreciate that when you have run out of arguments insults and bluster are all you have left.
I know we are not supposed to cast aspersions on the mental capacity of other poster but you have to ask the question

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 04:17 AM

Dodgy dossiers and forecasts of massive destruction
( Michael Fish moments )
Economists have completely failed us. They’re no better than Mystic Meg
Lifted straight from the lefty bible the gruniard, so it must be stenciled on a Moses tablet

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/06/economists-economic-policy-brexit-crash-failure

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 06:01 AM

So, let me get this right.

The government commissions a report from it's own people.

The report is duly put together to inform the government of the likely outcomes of a no-deal Brexit such as delays at ports, immigration delays, disruption of medical supplies, a shortage of some foodstuffs, the potential closure of two refineries etc etc.

The government should then, according to your somewhat skewed notion, ignore that very same document as "project fear"

What !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 06:13 AM

Yet another gloomy report of yet another potential financial hit to the UK economy if we leave the EU. This one is from University College London.

I defy any of our Brexiteers to claim they understood this ramification prior to voting 3 years ago.



UK as a data hub

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:05 PM

Yet another threat by the leave vermins' mouthpiece Johnson that he will withold UK's DEMOCRATICALLY agreed contribution to operational programmes. If he does that the EU will have only two choices - apply sanctions that will bring all UK s*** to its knees (I include myself as UK s***) or sieze and auction the homes and assets, holiday villas of the UK migrants still infesting mainland Europe. Alternative Johnson can shut his ignorant mouth and stop poking his nose into things that are none of his business. -Feeling a tad angry about Johnson opening its mouth again).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:23 PM

As the clock runs down the remainiacs are getting increasingly hysterical and hoping we all die of starvation.

Totally unhinged the lot of them.
The first argument they raised to invalidate the referendum results was to argue older people voted for brexit and are dying offf wholesale and the lots of brainwashed lefties coming of age would vote to remain.Subsequently they have entirely lost the plot.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/24/rage-remainers-will-awesome-brexit-isnt-disaster-praying/


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-secon

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1169741/brexit-news-remainers-return-european-union-no-deal

I would just prorogue Parliament and watch the clock run out. I would have to get some super efficient earplugs to shut out the shouty lefties. I will get some popcorn in readyness to watch them all frothing.
Democracy demands Parliament respects and obeys the clearly stated will of the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:31 PM

May's red lines were not the will of the people
Johnson's blustering is not the will of the people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:34 PM

So Iains, once again you avoid addressing the questions put to you.

The government, led by Boris Johnson, commissioned a report on the possible consequences of the UK leaving the EU without a deal.

Yellowhammer if you care to recall.

The report by a government sponsored body was less than favourable, in fact it reported dire prognostications for the immediate future of the UK.

Today I linked to a report from University College, London. Once again you have studiously ignored that article.

If you are so sure of your "facts" why don't you enlighten the rest of us of just how great the UK is going to be post Brexit.

I'm sure I'm not alone in waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:39 PM

I hope that Hillingdon Council receptionists have been adequately briefed on how to prepare for the personal onslaught they may face when people realise they work for the Council that contains Johnson's constituency. I will feel apprehensive living the neighboring borough even though we voted remain by an overwhelming margin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 03:32 PM

Tic Toc!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 02:41 AM

Interesting comparison of Enoch Powell with the present gang. Kerevan is a Scottish Nationalist but seems a bit less pessimistic about England than most of us up here.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17860170.boris-johnson-continues-racist-virus-spawned-enoch-powell/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 05:09 AM

I see that Johnson is trying to use the divorce money as a weapon again. Well several things. First, the sum is now quite a bit less than £39 billion, possibly only £33 billion by now, because we didn't leave in March and the transactions done since then have lowered the sum. Second, we would be legally obliged to pay a considerable chunk of it, maybe eight or nine billion or more, whatever happens - even Downing Street has acknowledged that, and you can bet your life that the EU will see us in court for the rest. Third, any refusal to pay would completely sour future relations with the EU, our biggest trading partner by a country mile. Fourth, the EU will not talk to us about trade until we've paid, their position all along. These are the immovable objects and do not reflect any weaponising of the financial settlement by the EU. Boris isn't telling us any of that. He's still talking £39 billion up for grabs. Of course, being the stranger to the truth that he is, that's no surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 05:30 AM

And the EU has said, fair enough, if you do that we no-deal. Then the moment you come back asking for a trade agreement, we want the money that was negotiated before we even talk. And by the way, the French fisherman and many others will also to set prior conditions before starting to talk trade. And, also by the way, we have been making clear this our position for a few years now. This is not the EU punishing the UK. It it was the UK chose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 06:20 AM

That was a response to DMcG, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 10:58 AM

Boris has brought a miraculous change to the political weather, as the Remainiac world order falls apart.
The story brought to you by the Torygraph that runs at a profit. Unlike the guardian kept afloat by misplaced charity and endless begging letters.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/25/boris-has-brought-miraculous-change-political-weather-remainer/?li_source=LI&li_
With Boris as PM and Nigel as the scourge of Brussels, perhaps the will of the people will carry the day, and Brexit will become a bastard child
at last! Nurtured by Valiant Brexiteers and to be abandoned as a foundling by callous remainiacs.
Tickety toc!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:02 AM

(1) In the event of no deal, will leavers guarantee the right of UK nationals the on going RIGHT to live, work, retire, study in mainland Europe?
(2) If they can't why do leavers believe the UK nationals should no longer have the RIGHT to live, work, retire, study in mainland Europe?
(3) If UK nationals will no longer have the RIGHT to live, work, retire, study in mainland Europe,why should people already living there who do not have full citizenship have preferential rights?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:22 AM

There is a meeting today of the opposition parties to plan the way forward. I suspect it is most likely to report progress but not be entirely conclusive because some of the leaders will want to take the suggestions back to their colleagues before fully committing themselves. If that is the case it may still be some days before an agreed plan is announced.

However it is also possible that today we hear no plan can be agreed. I think that announcement unlikely practice, but am certain that is how the Express and others will report anything other than a fully agreed plan announced today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 05:19 AM

Breaking news from the font of fact and veracity, the Guido:



https://order-order.com/2019/08/27/chances-new-deal-increase-post-g7/

I trust none of Maybot's reparations and surrenders are included

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:26 PM

LEST WE FORGET
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:10 PM

message: a significant political, social, or moral point that is being conveyed by a film, speech, etc.

messenger: a person who carries a message or is employed to carry messages.
    synonyms:        message-bearer, message-carrier, postman, courier, errand boy/girl, runner, dispatch rider, envoy, emissary, agent, go-between, legate, nuncio, herald, harbinger

This not so subtle distinction has been pointed out innumerable times.
There is a legitimate reason some are labelled leftards!
Shall I point out the gyrations of some gruniard correspondents for you?

Here is another jolly jape indeed (from Guido, of course)
https://order-order.com/2019/08/27/majority-remainers-blame-anti-brexit-mps-causing-no-deal/
‘MPs who opposed Theresa May’s Brexit deal because they wanted to stop Brexit’ and those who ‘wanted a softer Brexit’, hilariously, would receive 57% and 58% of Remainers’ blame respectively.
Data from Yougov.

And another yougov poll
‘MPs who opposed Theresa May’s Brexit deal because they wanted to stop Brexit’ and those who ‘wanted a softer Brexit’, hilarious

New YouGov polling has quantified the intolerance and hive-mindedness of both Labour supporters and Remainers, showing that nearly 4 in 10 of both groups would be upset if their child married someone from the opposite camp – in comparison to just 1 in 10 vice versa. Turns out there is one sort of union Remainers aren’t a fan of…

You could not make it up. NEITHER DOES GUIDO!
I could go on, but I will spare your feelings!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

THERE'S A GOOD TIME A-COMIN'
Look forward to that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:34 PM

In the light of Yougov's findibngs that the majority if Britain's Tories would happily dsse their party destroyed for Brexit, it's interesting to har that Corbyn is in conference with the SNP and the Lib Dems to form a coalition to stop a hard Brexit
Should they manage to agree, the Tory will have destroyed any chances they have of winning a raffle, never mind an election
I very much doubt if Fascist thug, Tommy Robinson will have got over his prison beating up to win too many hearts and minds and the people have never really taken Farage too seriously - WHO THE **** COULD ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:33 PM

and the people have never really taken Farage too seriously

I do like your little jest.

17.4 million voted for brexit(A resounding majority) 72,2% turnout. As compared with 73.3 in 1992 and 64% in the 1975 Referendum.
29 MEPs stood on a Brexit ticket outnumbering all others.(29/72 = 40%


More Abbacus mathemagic! Did young jimmy go to Hogwarts, or is he simply innumerate?
Have you ever considered verifying your nonsense before posting? It must require all of 2 minutes!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 03:34 PM

Sorry about my link. Does anyone want to see the article? I am pretty sure I could paste it here in toto. Dog jokes ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 04:24 PM

YouGov is a Tory organisation, Tory-founded, thoroughly Tory, thoroughly capitalistic. Now that doesn't mean that their polls are dishonestly conducted, etc. But there's a degree of dishonesty in that name. "Gov" doesn't half sound official, doesn't it? Just in case anyone thought that their data emanates from some official government setup. No such luck. Know thine enemy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 05:24 PM

http://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/officers-members/

Members (Company representatives)

    ......................
    Ipsos MORI — Simon Atkinson — 020-7347 3000
    ..........................
    Moonlight Research — Nick Moon — 07770-564 664
    Opinium — James Endersby — 020-7566 3197
       Populus — Andrew Cooper — 020-7253 9465
    Public First — Seb Wride — 020-3687 2761
    qriously — Abraham Muller — 07761-787 065
    Sky Data — Harry Carr — 07817-461 632
    Survation — Damian Lyons Lowe — 020-3142 7644
    YouGov — Anthony Wells — 020-7012 6000

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:37 AM

"YouGov is a Tory organisation,"
If the people's opinion counted a fiddlers fart to any of these clowns they would be asked to re-confirm their decision now that it has been exposed as the train-wreck it obviously is.
All we get from the politicians is "it's the peoples's choice and all we get here is a blanket of silence from the slightly more thoughtful Brexiteers, otherwise, the outpourings from Westminster's favourite self-confessed neo-Nazi blogger.
That's not what the people voted for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 03:35 AM

From the London Economic.

Don’t have to look far on this thread to find the brainwashed ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

Good to see the level of hysteria rising among the remainiacs as the clock continues to run down.
The latest cunning plan from those unable to accept the majority vote is to attempt to arrange a coup and usurp the government's role.
Steptoe senior, the most toxic political figure in the land, is having none of that though. Even the church is getting involved. The game plan seems to be squabble, squabble, toil and trouble. I suspect Carey has just ignited a fuse under the Church of England that he will learn to rue.
The two sides of the divide are quite simple to understand:
Leave won the vote and all who support democracy accept that, no matter what side of the divide they inhabit.
A hardcore of remainiacs just cannot accept the will of the majority carries the day, whether it comprises a majority of one, a thousand, a million, ten million. That is the whole basis of democracy. Do they seriously think they can thwart the will of the majority. Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. The remainiacs had better be aware that the level of rage that will surface should they frustrate Brexit will be of a level never seen in their lifetimes, Remainiacs are ready to risk all to ensure that their minority view prevails.

not often I link to the mail but the article below spells out the situation very clearly. Contrary to the impression gained on Mudcat, Brexiteers won the referendum clearly and unequivocally. Endless bleating from the vociferous on here and their continual attempts to silence all opposition change the facts not one iota. Very clearly the remainiacs are attempting to subvert Democracy, no other explanation is possible.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7400941/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Corbyn-rabble-alliance-dont-understand-democracy.html

ps continually questioning the validity of yougov polls is rather a wasted effort. Yougove adheres to the same rules as all the other major polling companies. If you attempted to understand my links you would know this. Continually attacking their polls is asinine. Howsabout arguing Tuesday is wednesday? a far more fruitful endeavour!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:31 AM

Corbyn has had the right scared stitless since his appearance on the scene - to misquote Billy Connolly, if you want to confuse a rightist, present him with a new idea based on principle and fairness.
Interesting to see YouGov's survey suggesting that the Tories would see their country and their party betrayed rather than lose Brexit, goes unchallenged - I suppose we take that as assent then

"the brainwashed ones..."
Generous of you to suggest there is an evidence of a brain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:34 AM

what we must do is reclaim the sovereignty of the british parliament - oh, hang on - actually we can't be bothered, lets just have a far-right coup instead.

resist these clueless fascists in any way you can

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:44 AM

Isn't it great to see democracy (Johnson style) in action.

Even going as far as to openly claim the latest move is to prevent debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:57 AM

This news is that democracy has been abandoned. All the sanctimonious shit we've heard from leavers about respecting the democratic referendum decision - now this blatant ploy to shut out legitimate opposition. It's nothing less than proto-fascism. A million whited sepulchres are flying past the window.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 05:00 AM

"lets just have a far-right coup instead. "
Farage's 'Rivers of Blood'poster was the first giant step in that direction - now Brainless Boris is winding up for more of the same
Trump has already started the ball rolling across the Pond by telling Women Politicians got go back to their own countries - and mor significantly targeting the Jewish People - the silence from our own decent, Democratic Government on that one is deafening
AS PEGGY SEEGER SANG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:38 AM

No need Mrrzy. Here is a link

Of course our brexiteers will say it is just project fear. Even though it is a leave favouring government that is saying it. C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM

"Of course our brexiteers will say it is just project fear. "
They've already claimed it to be "our of date" - whatever that could possibly means
Whatever it does mean, it represents suppressed information deliberately hidden from the public on whose behalf they claim to be working for
Lying to the electorate has always been the Rabid Right's version of democracy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:46 AM

PM Johnson is adamant that proroguing Parliament has nothing whatever to do with preventing Parliament trying to stop a no deal.


I would be surprised if anyone believed that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:54 AM

Oh, some will DMcG. Just you watch!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b1785a3f73d0938529b14b9ac309292a2c70724f574fff7f9f6ac69d1a9af74e.jpg

The sun has got his hat on Hip-hip-hip hooray
The sun has got his hat on
And he's coming out to day
Now we'll all be happy
Hip-hip-hip hooray
The sun has got his hat on
And he's coming out to day !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:17 AM

"I would be surprised if anyone believed that."Yeah - it's probably a coincidence that it's been timed to allow Brexit to be forced through
Come-oooon mac - you're more astute than that
Every report on Johnson's intended coup - links the two - our resident goose-stepper obviously does - hence the dance
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:40 AM

Quite so, Jim: that is what I meant.

Even Guido does not believe the PM's claim. No doubt a number of MPs will *say* they think there is no connection, but I feel confident even they know there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:46 AM

My apologies Mac
I mis read yuouur posting
The walking/chewing gum syndrome is showing again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 11:25 AM

Number 10 has confirmed to Guido that Her Majesty the Queen has already formally approved the Government’s order for a new Queen’s Speech and prorogation of Parliament from the 11th September. Making the letter that dozey Corbyn wrote to Her Majesty a couple of hours ago requesting a meeting before she did so, irrelevant…

The Queen signed the prorogation order after a meeting with Privy Councillors Jacob Rees-Mogg, Baroness Evans, and Mark Spencer. It remains to be seen whether Best for Britain follow through on their absurd threat to the Queen for doing so…

https://order-order.com/2019/08/28/queen-approves-prorogation-request/

Note No 10 confirmed the news to Guido!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 11:37 AM

Funny old world init? We now have PM who was not elected by the people taking actions that remove sovereignty from parliament. And those who squawk the loudest about a people's democracy and regaining control are cheering this on. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 11:40 AM

Nothing new about rabid right hypocrisy Dave - when have they eevr been anything but ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM

Good gawd! Suspending Parliament?
This is Nazism. I hope you guys are gonna take to the streets over this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:11 PM

We should! But I’m betting we’ll just give it a bit of stiff upper lip.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:24 PM

I feel like stuffing my face with paracetamol than give the likes of Johnson Mogg and Farage the satisfaction of gloating over damaging so many people's lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:35 PM

Thanks, DtGnome.

So the US press seems to be reporting he's asked her to suspend Parliament, and the British press seems to say she has. Has Parliament been suspended? At Boris' request?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:41 PM

So the US press seems to be reporting he's asked her to suspend Parliament, and the British press seems to say she has. Has Parliament been suspended? At Boris' request?

Almost. He has asked for it to be suspended from 10 September until 14th October, and the Queen has agreed. In practice, she had no alternative. There will now follow days of legal challenges and frenetic activity in Parliament to see if anything can be done before 10th.

Whatever you think about the pros and cons of Brexit, this sets a very dangerous precedent whereby any PM could suspend Parliament for weeks - and why not months if it suited - pretty much whenever they found it convenient.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:44 PM

Per The Guardian she has.

God help you lot. Between Trump & Boris the world is going to shit.

Stay tuned for the burning of the Reichstag.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:52 PM

You carefully overlook the fact the Major prorogued Parliament for six weeks in order to avoid the cash for questions embarrassment.
As the mirror succinctly says:
He’s setting the date for a Queen’s Speech and State Opening of Parliament (which happen together on the same day).

This effectively reboots Parliament, setting off a new ‘session’ and shutting down the old one.

This process called "proroguing" usually happens every year - but it doesn’t have to, and Theresa May chose not to have a Queen’s Speech in 2018-19, so she’d have more time to push Brexit plans through.
That means we've now had the longest gap between Queen's Speeches for more than 400 years.
To trigger a Queen's Speech Parliament has to have a short break, which usually lasts a few days. This time Boris has made it longer.
Quite a normal constitutional process. Democracyt rules and remainiacs are spitting nails. They are talking about a coup and all sorts of other nonsense. One day they will have to accept the majority won the referendum and their choice was to leave the EU either with or without a deal.
Time for another Carry On film......Carry on squealing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 12:59 PM

It was at the request of the Privy Council including Mogg. Of course all the leavers will be gloating because they got what they wanted as if it is nothing but a fucking game. In reality they got fuck all, expect fucking up peoples lives, young people's opportunities in the future. When the reality hits I will have no sympathy whatsoever if people whose lives they damaged knock their teeth down their throats - or worse.

To the mods - please excuse my anger profane language - I am not usually like this. surprised that my heart rate is only 94 bpm. Went up to 104 now down to 80.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 01:17 PM

Does this really come as a surprise ?
Bitan has ben swinging to the right since the the powers that be allowed shite like Farage to take the lead in this referendum
Better get used to the idea that from now on democracy will be a moveable feast
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 01:29 PM

Will it really come as any surprise when the people take democracy into their own hands on the basis that a lying **** like Johnson can just overrule elected parliamentary representatives and dictate to 68 million people. If that happens and I am on a jury where the defendants mete out their own version of justice I would have no problem voting not guilty (as is my right) on the grounds that their victims were only getting what they deserve, and proportionately the damage the victims did to society is much greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 01:38 PM

Sorry, SPB. I understand your fury at this but in advocating violence against politicians you are also justifying the murder of Jo Cox. We should never, under any circumstances, use the same level of violence as the extremists. Civil unrest against unjust laws is one thing. Murder is another.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:07 PM

"you are also justifying the murder of Jo Cox. "
Brexit's first victim - more to come
It's a bit 'shutting the door after the donkey's done a runner to talk of violence Dave
Go ask the victims of the spike in hate crimes brought about by this scummy so called democratic vote
I'm not advocating that anybody should take a leaf out the rightist book but don't be surprised if they do
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:16 PM

I am not advocating murder, I never would. I made my views plain on that in comments I have made about capital punishment where I would vote not guilty rather than have anyone put to death supposed in my name. I am not even recommending violence - though the toe of my post might suggest otherwise - their are ore subtle forms of retribution. I will not change my position, however on the line I would take if I was on a jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:31 PM

In the end we are facing division that has been created by one side only by even contemplating anything so divisive. Division what, in the end, was as a result of a vague which was one one reassurances by its main protagonists would mean a future relationship along the lines of EEA, followed by red lines which automatically precluded this, as well as a rising tide of hatred directed towards European Nationals living in the UK. What we have now is a far right government forcing through their agenda. I do not advocate or even relish division escalating into extreme violence, but Johnson has now lit the blue touch paper, and I fear nothing can be done to stop this happening. At lease May had the good sense when she was Home Secretary to forbid the use of Johnson's water cannons - about the onlt decent thing she ever did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:41 PM

BREXIT THE 41% SOLUTION
JO COX - FIRST VICTIM OF BREXIT
Hardly surprising given the example of our own Brexiteer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM

if parliament is acting undemocratically, then, in order to carry out democracy, it must be bypassed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:07 PM

Have the good people here noticed that the more rational Brexiteers on this site have failed to comment on the travesty that Johnson has instigated today.

As of 30 minutes ago an on-line petition calling on the government not to prorogue parliament had already received over 800,000 signature in a little over 11 hours.

Stop proroguing parliament


Democracy eh ...............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:10 PM

834,000 plus as of now at 21.10pm

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:11 PM

I have signed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 04:17 PM

Just to say, SPB, I fully share your feeling of sheer anger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 05:02 PM

Yesterday felt like the best day for democracy for years. All the opposition parties agreed that they would use parliamentary process, the thing which brexiteers supposedly wanted to rescue from those unelected (a lie, of course) Brussels bureaucrats to defeat not brexit but the thing that no-one in this country voted for, a no-deal crashout.

Today, the kneejerk reaction to that by a millionaire UNELECTED toff, supported by the seven-times UNELECTED Brexit Party leader and with the grubby fingerprints of an UNELECTED adviser in Downing Street all over the scheme, is to abandon parliamentary democracy and take away all control from the people we did elect. A bloody dark day, unless you love cheats and liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 05:14 PM

The reaction of the UK Left Remainers is, as usual, overblown. The State Opening Of Parliament has taken place annually with very few exceptions throughout and since the twentieth century. Last year was one of those exceptions. To not do it again this year would be completely unprecedented, especially as a new Prime Minister will always want to set up his or her own, new, political agenda. That requires a new Queens speech and that requires prorogation. There was no time to do it before the summer holidays, after that is three weeks of Party Conferences. After that is the obvious time to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 05:35 PM

How pleasant that the squealing remainiacs are now starting to realize how the silent majority feel about their majority decision to leave the EU being constantly frustrated for the past three years.
I am beginning to think there is a slight chance we may yet leave the fascist EU on the 31st of October.
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN! and send her victorious and send all those whining remainers such as soubry and compo packing.
There will be a lot of MPs in need of alternative careers very shortly.
Treachery brings just rewards!
What on earth goes through their minds,to think they can subvert the will of the majority?

In the US The constitution declares that the sovereignty lies with the people and the constitution is the embodiment and solemn expression of the will of the people. A shame so many parliamentarians do not share the same view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 05:47 PM

I subvert the will of the majority every chance I get if I think said majority is wrong. I live in the southern US and am an atheist, so it isn't just the orange guy's will I try to subvert. Not that he was elected by a majority, but his followers outnumber me here...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:05 PM

Well done, Stanron, for swallowing hook, line and sinker the disingenuous and dishonest claptrap of the Johnson regime. Prorogation can be for one day. The Queen's Speech can follow the next day. But prorogation is lasting nearly FIVE WEEKS. It's blatantly obvious to all bar the brain-dead that this move is a kneejerk reaction to the unity shown by all opposition parties yesterday, who declared that they wanted to take the thoroughly democratic, legislative path towards trying to prevent A NO-DEAL BREXIT. Not brexit, Stanron: A NO-DEAL BREXIT. That which not one person in this country thought they were voting for, not even you if you're honest. If you have the Tory numbers in the House, Stanron, then what are you afraid of? If you haven't got the Tory numbers, you know why? Because some of your side will defect. Not our side, Stanron, yours. Without Tories, we haven't got the numbers. Without defectors from you Tories, we can't do it. It's what we call Parliamentary democracy, Stanron, that thing that you lot are supposedly trying to rescue from the clutches of the EU. But it's there and useful only when it suits you, it seems. Open your eyes, old boy. You and your side are the ones in all this suffering from the severest form of democratic deficit. We want our ELECTED representatives to have their say. You want your UNELECTED leader to stop them. Ironic, really, when you've been rattling on for three years about how undemocratic the EU is, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:57 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Well done, Stanron, for swallowing hook, line and sinker the disingenuous and dishonest claptrap of the Johnson regime. Prorogation can be for one day. The Queen's Speech can follow the next day. But prorogation is lasting nearly FIVE WEEKS. It's blatantly obvious to all bar the brain-dead that this move is a kneejerk reaction to the unity shown by all opposition parties yesterday, who declared that they wanted to take the thoroughly democratic, legislative path towards trying to prevent A NO-DEAL BREXIT. Not brexit, Stanron: A NO-DEAL BREXIT. That which not one person in this country thought they were voting for, not even you if you're honest. If you have the Tory numbers in the House, Stanron, then what are you afraid of? If you haven't got the Tory numbers, you know why? Because some of your side will defect. Not our side, Stanron, yours. Without Tories, we haven't got the numbers. Without defectors from you Tories, we can't do it. It's what we call Parliamentary democracy, Stanron, that thing that you lot are supposedly trying to rescue from the clutches of the EU. But it's there and useful only when it suits you, it seems. Open your eyes, old boy. You and your side are the ones in all this suffering from the severest form of democratic deficit. We want our ELECTED representatives to have their say. You want your UNELECTED leader to stop them. Ironic, really, when you've been rattling on for three years about how undemocratic the EU is, eh?

Well done, Steve Shaw, for swallowing hook, line and sinker the disingenuous and dishonest claptrap of the Labour party line.

It's blatantly obvious to all bar the brain-dead that this move is a kneejerk reaction to the attempt at unity shown by all opposition parties yesterday, who failed to take a thoroughly undemocratic, legislative path towards trying to prevent brexit. Not A NO-DEAL BREXIT, Steve. They want to prevent any kind of Brexit.

I don't claim to be a mind reader and don't know why other people voted as they did. I know I voted to leave the EU and ALL it's institutions.

If you have the betrayal numbers in the House, Steve, then what are you afraid of? If you haven't got the betrayal numbers, you know why? Because some of your side will defect. Not just our side, Steve, yours too. The whole two or three year mess is a result of neither side having the numbers.

Parliamentary democracy, Steve, has already passed the laws that say we leave the EU after Halloween, with or without an agreement. With your attempts to prevent this happening, you and your side are the ones who are suffering from the severest form of democratic deficit. We want the decisions of our ELECTED representatives to be implemented. You want your UNELECTED coalition to stop them. Ironic, really, when you've been rattling on for three years about how democratic the EU is, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:26 PM

You don't read my posts. Long before Corbyn accepted that he couldn't run an emergency government, I posted in this thread that he couldn't do it, that his star had fallen. I've also been a long-time critic of the democratic deficit in the EU, the upshot of what John Seymour called gigantism. But that deficit pales beside the constant attempts by May to sidestep Parliament and by Johnson's attempt to prorogue Parliament. As a side note, I'd suggest you revisit the comments by Gove and Javid of just a few weeks ago, condemning out of hand the very idea of proroguing. Hypocrisy and lying personified. Don't force me to quote. It's all out there for your delectation.

Finally, how easy and lazy of you to cod-paraphrase my post instead of giving us your considered thoughts. Very defensive, very brainless, utterly witless, though, admittedly, quick and devoid of the need for effort. I put my original thoughts in my posts, Stanron, whatever you think of them. One fine day we might just get some of yours. Must try harder, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:09 AM

When it all starts to go tits-up, the only thing to do is to find the funny side!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:08 AM

"Not A NO-DEAL BREXIT, Steve."
That is typical of the distortion that sold this 'cat-in-a-bag' distortion in the fist place
It was bought by a large enough minority of the British people to squeeze it through by a hair's breadth and now that it has obviously become totally unacceptable, those who benefit from the dangerous populism that has been let out of the bottle, democracy has been dispelled with totally because it has become an obstacle to the ambitions of the few.
Leaving Europe is no longer an issue; with some people, I doubt if it ever has been - it is about the maintenance of power by mob-rule (aka 'populism') - by appealing to peoples' prejudices rather than their intelligence and natural humanity

Brexit has proved itself a bad decision - the Government's own survey has shown it to be a dangerous step backwards - economically, socially and politically - even the bullies here trying to bluster their non-arguments through realise that - that's why they have refused to discuss the real issues from day one
One sneers and struts - the other makes his quick jibes and beats it until the coast is clear

Watching this circus from a distance has made me realise how vastly superior a PR system of voting is to the first-past-the-post decisions
This mess has come about simply by the success of appealing to the prejudices of a significant minority of the British people - mob rule
Johnson, Farage.... and the rest of them know this - and they know they will not get away with it again - that's why they refuse the people a second chance to right a bad decision.

If the Labour Party and the elected workesr movements have anything worth offering, they will abandon Parliamentary tactics and take the people onto the streets in their masses to restore a semblance of the democracy that has been breached by the self-interest thugs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

If the Labour Party and the elected workesr movements have anything worth offering, they will abandon Parliamentary tactics and take the people onto the streets in their masses to restore a semblance of the democracy that has been breached by the self-interest thugs

What an asinine post. Inciting rioting in the UK while hiding in the west of Ireland. What planet do you live on?

As I keep saying the majority voted to leave the EU. Recent polls suggest the majority fully agree with proroguing Parliament.(89% of readers of the express. No. Polled >16k)
As one interviewee said " “Yes. It is right to prorogue parliament. It is a law to implement Brexit, and yet all sorts of delays blocking are being orchestrated by the very same people who voted for Brexit to become a law."
Another said, “Yes, Boris is entirely correct to prorogue our rogue Parliament, which descended into mass hysteria and is defying the will of the people in the referendum that it ordered.
A third commenter said: “Haha, just look at faces on these treasonous remainers now. Last time I saw this many long faces, I was watching the Grand National.”

A forth, referring to the Commons Speaker, said: “Of course it’s right. Otherwise this thing could drag on for years. Plus it could be a chance to get rid of that odious little creep Bercow.”

A fifth keen voter added: “Can I vote 500 times because the answer would be YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES............500 times!!”

In the real world the majority view expressed on here by disgruntled remainers is resoundingly a minority, albeit a very shouty one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:41 AM

The idea of another referendum (a third, not a second) is one that I've reluctantly come to see as the only way out of all this, but it has nothing to do with the firestorm of the last 24 hours. This is about trying to prevent a NO-DEAL brexit, not preventing brexit altogether. It would be good if we tried not to lose that focus.

Polls can be quite useful, unlike those silly vox pops indulged in by the Beeb. The only effect of those is to increase disillusionment over people's apparent inability to get to grips with the issues and think for themselves. Proper polls try hard to investigate a large representative sample of people with non-leading questions. Any other kind of "survey" is a waste of time. You might as well ask the punters at a racecourse whether they like horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:11 AM

There is now a move afoot by MPs who object to their rights being overidden by The Fat Controller, to occupy Parliament

Meanwhile - back in La-la Land
Seizing Power in order to force though a decision arrived at by stirring race and community hatred which has so far led to an unprecedented spike in hate crimes and at least one death = democracy
The People legally turning out on the streets to protest the fact that the democratic voice has been been silenced = RIOTING
A British citizen choosing to live elsewhere other than Britain = a crime punishable by banishment apparently
Acoording to someone who has boasted of having bought two farms in The South West of Ireland
My point proven far better than I could have managed it, I think -
That's my fun for today Dave - apologies - back to the adult world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:14 AM

I wonder when perfectly legal ‘protest’ and ‘demonstration’ became reclassified as ‘rioting’?

And, of course, the lunatics - led by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, et al, following the instructions of the likes of the Barclay Bros and the Wrinkly Antipodean - have already taken over the asylum, and are running around with cans of petrol in preparation for burning it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:41 AM

Observe what this bunch of lying and hypocritical Tory shits were saying about prorogation just a few short weeks ago (extracted from a Guardian piece and all quotes):

During the recent Tory leadership contest, the health secretary, Matt Hancock, said the idea of suspending parliament “goes against everything those men who waded onto those beaches fought & died for – and I will not have it”.

Hancock wrote to parliament parliament on 6 June, saying that “England is the mother of all parliaments – respected as such around the free world”.

“To suspend Parliament explicitly to pursue a course of action against its wishes is not a serious policy of a prime minister in the 21st Century,” the letter said.

Amber Rudd, the work and pensions secretary, in June described the suspending of parliament as “absolutely outrageous”.

“The idea of leaving the EU to take back more control into parliament and to consider the idea of closing parliament to do that is the most extraordinary idea I’ve ever heard,” she said.

“It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider proroguing parliament. For a start it would involve approaching the Queen and nobody should consider doing that,” she said.

The now chancellor, Sajid Javid, was also vehemently opposed to shutting down parliament, during the Tory leadership campaign, saying: “You don’t deliver on democracy by trashing democracy ... we are not selecting a dictator of our country”

The international trade secretary and longtime Johnson defender Liz Truss told the BBC’s Emily Maitlis in June that the idea of suspending parliament was an “archaic manoeuvre” that Johnson had already ruled out. “He wants to bring parliament with him,” she said. She was asked: “He’s definitely ruling out proroguing or suspending parliament, is that right?” Her answer was: “That’s right.”

Staunchly pro-leave Michael Gove, now chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, was also against suspending parliament, telling the BBC’s Andrew Marr show: “I think it will be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy”.

The culture secretary Nicky Morgan told the BBC’s Question Time programme that proroguing parliament was “clearly a mad suggestion”.

“You cannot say you are going to take back control … and then go: ‘Oh, by the way, we are just going to shut parliament down for a couple of months, so we are just going to drift out on a no deal’,” she said.

Asked in July if she would go along with a plan to suspend parliament to ensure a no-deal Brexit, Andrea Leadsom, a leading supporter of Boris Johnson, and now the business secretary, said: “No I don’t believe I would and I don’t believe it would happen.”

Don't hold your breath waiting for their resignations to flood in...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:41 AM

When you get a Prime Minister whose female colleagues have said they would be afraid to ride home with him in the same car, you you know the country is on the skids
British Politics has now reached the 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' level
I wish some of you fellers could be here when I go down for my newspaper in the morning - the entertainment level soars to 'That Was the Week That Was" heights when "Britain" or "Brexit" is mentioned
These morons and their arse-kissers have made Britain an International laughing-stock
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 07:26 AM

I'm not usually interested in what Tories or ex-Tories think, but I spotted this just now on Twitter from Nick Boles:

"The only person who could have tempted me to return to the Conservative fold is Ruth Davidson MSP. Her characteristically honourable and human decision removes the last significant voice of liberal, progressive conservatism from the party."

Ruth Davidson is one of those very few Tories who get me puzzling over why they're Tories at all. In the past I've had the same thoughts about Anna Soubry, Justine Greening, Sarah Wollaston and Dominic Grieve. Just musing...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:04 AM

Tory Whip, Lord Young has resigned from the Government
Legal challenges to suspending parliament now being considered
Lord Snooty Mogg blames it all on those who don't want to believe
A sick Joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:04 AM

Tory Whip, Lord Young has resigned from the Government
Legal challenges to suspending parliament now being considered
Lord Snooty Mogg blames it all on those who don't want to believe
A sick Joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:12 AM

Don't want to leave - of course - but believe is probably as good
This friggin' farce is unbelievably
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:13 AM

I heard Jake Rich-Mong pompously holding forth on BBC News this morning, something about ‘true believers’. Easy to be a ‘true believer’ when you know that ‘No Deal’ means no restrictions on your tax-dodging activities, and that your already-immense wealth is set to become even immenser!

And before Nigs and our Resident Right-Wing Troll come in to pick nits and tell me there’s no such word as ‘immenser’ - I’m fully aware, I just used it for a bit of fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:32 AM

37% of the electorate voted Leave. In a trade-union strike ballot, that would not have been enough to call a strike.

One rule for ‘them’, another for.....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:03 AM

I look forward to the day, that us remainers are prepared for, when the reality of leaving the EU bites these silly ******* on the backside and they realise finally the magnitude of their stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:21 AM

They’ll never admit it Raggy. They’d sooner eat their own bollocks than admit they Fell for the horse-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:26 AM

They'll have to admit to themselves though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 10:27 AM

Here's where we are, MkII: 37% of the electorate voted leave. Almost as many voted remain. The two issues now causing the most angst, the Irish border issue and the prospect of no-deal, were hardly on the table at all during the referendum campaign. The biggest brexit issues were simply not upfront. They were certainly not on the ballot paper. Yet now we have an UNELECTED prime minister leading a MINORITY government who thinks he has a mandate to push through a no-deal brexit, so much so that he is prepared to suspend Parliament in order to obstruct what our ELECTED representatives are elected by us to do. He has packed his cabinet with lackeys, liars (see my post of 05.41AM) and brexit ultras in order to mute his own party's opposition, knowing that almost all Tories are far more interested in protecting their own greedy, unwashed arses than in the country's interests. Well let's hope that that little "almost" will be enough to nobble him. And let's hope that the positive coalition of opposition parties that came about on Tuesday will hold.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:09 PM

Leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson has resigned
It seems the predictions of the break-up of the UK are coming home to roost
A senior Tory MP has stated that the rights of the people of Northern Ireland are being ignored
United we fall - eh !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:21 PM

Here's where we are, MkII: 37% of the electorate voted leave.
More mathermagic from either the abbacus or Hogwarts!
Here are the true results for the 50th time

Leave         17,410,742         51.89%
Remain         16,141,241         48.11%
Valid votes         33,551,983         99.92%
Invalid or blank votes         25,359         0.08%
Total votes         33,577,342         100.00%
Registered voters/turnout         46,500,001         72.21%

If you want to be taken seriously do try to check your facts!
Were you as sloppy when teaching?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:34 PM

Incidentlly
I have requested of the mods that if the increasingly disfunction behaviour of this individual continues he be stopped
I really see no reason whatever why we should have to put up with his continuing abusive behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM

”Here’s where we are, MkII. 37% of the electorate voted Leave.”

17,410,742 is 37.44% of 46,500,001.

That statement looks right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

17,410,742 is 37.44% of 46,500,001.

That statement looks right to me.
Oh Dear.

What part of the voting process do you not understand.

Those that could not be bothered to vote do not count. Democracy demands little of the electorate and casting a vote is hardly onerous

I really see no reason whatever why we should have to put up with his continuing abusive behaviour. Is that a tree in your eye?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:21 PM

I have made the same point over and over again, BWM. 37% of the electorate wanted us to leave. 36% wanted to stay. Of the remaining 27% no one has any idea what they wanted. The "will of the people" lie was put about by the Eton toffs, snake oil salesmen and nicotine stained spivs to fool people into thinking they were working for democracy rather than their own self interest. And some still believe them. I cannot blame those who do. The con artists have had years of practice and they are very good at it. The best we can do is just tell the truth and hope that we will eventually get the message through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM

Dave, I was simply confirming the accuracy of the statement Steve Shaw has made, which you and I have no difficulty understanding - that 37% of the electorate voted Leave. That is an absolute, incontestable fact - borne out by the numbers provided by our Resident Troll himself.

Our Resident Troll seems to be getting his frillies wedged in his bum-crack on the basis of his own misunderstanding of Steve’s point.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:56 PM

Bugger, I’ll try that again....

Dave, I was simply confirming the accuracy of the statement Steve Shaw has made, which you and I have no difficulty understanding - that 37% of the electorate voted Leave. That is an absolute, incontestable fact - borne out by the numbers provided by our Resident Troll himself.

Our Resident Troll seems to be getting his frillies wedged in his bum-crack on the basis of his own misunderstanding of Steve’s point.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:11 PM

Jim, do what I've been doing. Just don't read his posts. He's getting more and more desperate for attention the more we blank him. It's the way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:26 PM

Or there could be a correction that 63% of the people did not vote to leave.

Where is the majority now!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Neil D
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:40 PM

I just spent a couple hours reading through several days of posts on this thread and want to thank the Britcatters for getting me up to speed on Brexit. We don't get much coverage of the issue here in the U.S. I saw one article regarding the suspension of Parliament (we don't use the word prorogation here), without much detail. There's very little interest here; millions of Americans don't even know the word Brexit, yet it's not like we won't be involved at some level. My understanding is that Brexiteers hope to replace potentially lost trade with Europe by signing a more favorable trade treaty with the U.S. This is something Trump will most likely embrace considering his disdain for European leaders and Boris being his long lost clone.
One general question I've long had: Is there any sentiment among Scots for a new Independence referendum and any possibility it would be allowed by Parliament? And what about Northern Ireland? I know that the populations of both countries voted against Brexit by a clear majority. I'm sure it has been a topic of discussion over there, but as I said, we get very little info about it in our media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:16 PM

Good to see that Boris has the arch Spad Cummings on board. The wargaming master mind and chief of strategy. He has nothing but disdain for al politicians and told parliament to take a hike when they summoned him . Ex PM David Cameron criticised Cummings as a "career psychopath"
He is the archetypal Machiavellian manipulator who hopefully has thoroughly wargamed all the three dimensional moves the remainiacs may be pondering. Very Churchillian! Talk about having the right man in the right place at the right time.
   I might have to go and buy some of luvvie linekar's crisps to go with the popcorn while the future hopefully unfolds, rather than unravels.

After three long weary years of betrayal and endless delays and postponements finally someone has stepped up to the mark and started to carry out the clear incisive directive from the majority of the electorate. I just hope he has the dreamteam to outgun, outclass, and outmanoeuvre the whining remainiacs hellbent on defying the winners.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:20 PM

many of us would like england to exit from europe and leave the celtic nations as members of the EU. who knows what will happen but it's certainly a very scary and potentially devastating situation for the UK at the moment. we have suffered a right-wing coup after several years of extreme austerity where all our public services have been trashed for the benefit of the wealthy. the brexit thing is driven by the 1% who don't want to pay higher taxes as the european countries are more likely to fund their public services more generously to drive down inequality. while scotland and ireland are generally more progressive and open societies, the upper classes and older people tend to be forelock-tuggers by inclination and suspicious of foreigners. sadly, many of the folk who have been most affected by austerity are often likely to fall for the easy answers and racism of the populists in government (here as in the USA)

many of us here are horrified at the direction of our government and would welcome independence for scottish neighbours (please move the border south to include cumbria in scotland!) while a united ireland has always been a goal of progressives here. there are even hints of wales becoming more interested in splitting from westminster rule - remains to be seen what will result from the antics of the foolish, lying slob at no 10.(here as in the USA)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 04:58 PM

Why on earth would you wish that on us, Pete? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:11 PM

"Jim, do what I've been doing. Just don't read his posts. "
I am not responding to him Dave
If he ciontinues to behave as he is doing I will do what I have done in the past, copy all his offensive posts en masse and put them up regularly
I the Mods refuse to do anything about his behaviour I will post them directly to Max - along with the earlyied fifty odd I still have filed and ask why he is not being stopped

If he behaved at home as he does here his family would have grounds to demand a restraining order be put on him for his abusive behaviour
If a child did so at school, they would be expelled
If he behaved like this in a pub, he would be barred - and punched in the face by those he insulted
I can see no reason on earth why we should be constantly told to ignore him
This is now beyond tolerance
Sorry - enough really is enough - you handle it your way. I'll do it mine
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 05:58 PM

BREXIT is being covered well in the U.S. if you receive and watch PBS and NPR. Here in Alaska we also get some BBC television broadcast news and CBC coverage as well.

No less an American leader than Barack Obama weighed in on the subject prior to the U.K. referendum.

And the very excellent transnational John Oliver of "Last Week Tonight" has explicitly covered BREXIT and PM Boris Johnson.

But even the U.K. coverage has not been able to 'explain' the events or attempt to predict what's going to happen. It is an enormous bollux where the perps are also the judges and executors of policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 06:32 PM

I agree with your sentiment, Jim, but the bald fact is that we've ignored him beautifully now for a couple of weeks and the result is that he's got more shrill, more neurotic, more childish, more attention-seeking, more gratuitously insulting and more downright immature than ever. Just ignore him. Within a week or two he'll disappear up his own unwashed arse. Keep protesting about him online and you're giving the mods good reason to just leave him be. They may think that he's a total pain in the arse (they all do: they've all told me in private time and time again) but they're not that keen on us either. Trust me on this. We're doing really well. Ignore the silly bugger. Just remember that very few people read these threads here. Chill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:30 AM

The Mods view everyone involved in this on-going, inter-personal feud as being exactly the same, irrespective of which ‘side’ they’re on. They make no judgment on them over their opinions, but simply on the basis of the ‘trouble’ they involve themselves in. They see no ‘goodies’ or ‘baddies’, they view everyone as trouble-making bastards who make the job of Moderation far more difficult than it should be.

The Mods’ job is difficult enough, and they do it unpaid, in their own free time.

For FUCK’S sake - JUST IGNORE THE TROLL. There’s no need for ‘rants’, or dossiers of the perceived wrongdoings of others - just IGNORE POSTS THAT ARE OBVIOUSLY INTENDED TO FLAME AND TROLL.

Otherwise, not only will this thread be closed down, but there’s a strong likelihood that the BS Section will be shut down completely.

End of Rant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:58 AM

”there’s a strong likelihood that the BS Section will be shut down completely.”

That should have been, “I would imagine there’s a strong likelihood....”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 03:49 AM

" but the bald fact is that we've ignored him beautifully now for a couple of week"
And his behaviour has got worse - and even more psychotic
Fine - we've become used to it over the years, but we are not the only ones on this forum, nor are we the only ones interested in the subject
It's all very well our slapping each others backs and agreeing - that's not discussion; it's being nodding-dogs
I don't know anything about Stanron - he's never here long enough; but I would dearly love to have a half-decent discussion with Nigel on this subject
If I were in his position, I would not with to associate my name with the behaviour of his fellow Brexiteer
If, as some of believe, he has been sent here by one of the organisations he has shown support for, he's managing to damage these discussions - his behaviour even elicited similar from one of the Mods when I complained - that cannot be right.
I'll think about your arguments and see what happens - but if he continues, I'll probably go ahead with what I propose
This enjoyable and vital (for people like me) part of the forum is being damaged
Off to get the papaer and see what Btitain's Pol-the Pot is up to today
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 03:56 AM

Compo's crowd are on the compost heap according to the Times Higher Education survey. Maybe it will help next years cabbages!
According to the survey conducted by YouthSight, Mr Corbyn has lost the support of students in what is a critical blow to his election hopes.
The student vote represented a huge part of his support but the new poll shows that among that group he has lost almost half, going from 70 percent to just 38.

The hysterical lefties are losing the plot.

Corbyn urges MPs to join Parliament shutdown protests as Momentum vow to 'occupy bridges and block roads'(That will endear him to a lot of people and be a real vote winner. White van man will not be pleased.
Another well crafted labour "shoot yourself in the foot" madcap protest.(GOOD LUCK with that one!)

The Labour MP Kate Osamor took to social media to share her anger at the decision, which Her Majesty was constitutionally required to do. She tweeted: “The Queen should look at what happened to her cousin Tino ex King of Greece when you enable a right wing coup! Monarchy abolished!” The Edmonton MP caused backlash last year when she used House of Commons headed notepaper to ask a judge not to jail her son for drug dealing.
(fine upstanding behaviour doncha think?)

Philip Pullman the Dark Materials authorhas apologised for a tweet he sent yesterday morning and said that he doesn’t ”advocate hanging Boris Johnson”. He previously tweeted: “When I hear the name ‘Boris Johnson’, for some reason the words ‘rope’ and ‘nearest lamp-post’ come to mind as well”.

It cannot be emphasized enough that no matter how much remainiacs wish to dominate on this thread,out in the real world you are a screeching minority that refuse to accept the democratic will of the majority.
Your cause has zero legitimacy, no matter how you try to clothe it.
It is time for you to accept you are a pack of losers. Live with it.
We, the majority, are getting fed up with your constant petulant whining

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

Jim Carroll posted "It's all very well our slapping each others backs and agreeing - that's not discussion; it's being nodding-dogs"

There does seem to be a lot of that in this section of the forum. It also seems that quite a few of you enjoy this tit for tat nonsense and winding each other. I think someone earlier said they thought that a lot of the posts here were by one person using 6 or 7 different names, posting both for and against Brexit. It does seem like that at times.

In the great scheme of things not many people will be reading what is posted here. I dip in from time to time, god knows why. There is enough nonsense in all the other media without having to add to it.

I do find it amusing the way some of you interpret a simple yes/no vote to say that it is not a majority vote. According to that reasoning only 43.35% voted to remain in the EU in the 1975 vote. Should that not have counted?

This whole debacle is a sorry reflection on our current political situation. How come no one thought of cancelling the 3 weeks off for the party political conferences? They all seemed happy enough to swan off when there is still so much to sort out.

I would just like to add that I voted remain and was disappointed but not surprised by the referendum result. There was plenty of time to sort out an agreement to leave but for whatever reason both the government and the EU seemed reluctant to sort anything out.

From personal experience locally, I do not expect a second referendum to be much different. I imagine that it would be close and could go either way. The result would mean that whoever lost would be unhappy and we would just continue with this carry on.

I don't like talk of civil disobedience and violence arising from either side. I find that sort of thing distasteful. Talk is cheap but the consequences are not always so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:43 AM

Rain Dog
In my experience of referenda in Ireland, some of which have changed the direction of the country in ways never imagined, they were conducted responsibly and openly enough to have been said that they reached a fair decision - open debate on clearly presented facts and arguments
This was never the case with Brexit - iven the press were up in arms that there was no plan beyond "let's get out"
This is why Farage's 'Rivers of Blood' poster won hands down - with the appalling results it incited
Now the facts of what is likely to happen have been made clear (according to Gove, they have always been available), it shows that the referendum was not conducted correctly - how could a people to be asked to vote with on the basis of suppressed information ?
The divisions that Brexit will bring (and is already about) can only get worse as they begin to bit into the communities relying on work
The UK is on the brink of falling apart, the people are divided, businesses are taking their investments elsewhere (notably Rees-Mogg and Dyson), and the older industries are continuing to collapse - Shipping is all but gone, Thatcher killed of mining, wwe are buying our textiles from the poorest countries while at the same time turning away their refugees and economic migrants.

I live in Ireland and am watching a steady rise in sectarian tensions in the North - one of the legal challenges is that a Hard Brexit breaches the Good Friday Agreement
The predicted 20 years it will take to clean up the mess of Brexit in increasing every time another problem emerges

If that's what the people want - fine - what can you do other than to accept it ?
To find that out will take another vote - that is common sense democracy, but one of the prerequisites of that vote should be to remove the hate aspect that skirted on the firinges of legality last time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:48 AM

Incidentally
"I don't like talk of civil disobedience and violence arising from either side."
Civil disobedience seldom occurs side against side - that would be civil war
It comes about when peoples' livelihood and living conditions are eroded or when a peoples humanity is offended to the poing of them taking to the streets - like Vietnam or Apartheid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:50 AM

The thing about the majority vote, Rain Dog, is that it is being described as "the will of the people". There is no doubt that the majority of those who voted, voted to leave. That is a fact. The lie is that 37% of the electorate represents "the will of the people". It doesn't. Nor should it ever have been a simple binary question. The reality is that It is far from a simple choice, as the last 3 years has shown. But, because the Cameron administration made the most monumental cock up in the history of politics, that is what we are stuck with.

What this discussion is, or should be, about is now to satisfy the will of the 37% who voted leave and the 36% who voted remain. The leave faction have demonstrated that they do not give a toss about democracy by supporting an unelected prime minister subverting parliamentary democracy for his own self gain. They have shown that their own arguments about democracy and parliamentary sovereignty are only applicable when it suits their agenda. They also prove that they could not care less about the will of almost an equal number of remainers with their "you lost, tough shit" attitude.

So, if the are not bothered about the will of 36%, do not care about democracy and are happy to have our own government subverted, then why are they using those arguments when it suits them? Hope this explains my views at least and thanks for dropping in with a civil and reasoned post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:16 AM

A majority of one is sufficient. Playing with numbers and words cannot alter that one vital inescapable fact.
Parliament that is supposed to represent the will of the people had a number of MPs elected on a leave ticket but secretly betraying their electorate and continually voting against the clearly stated referendum outcome.
In essence Parliament, instead of representing the people, is largely in opposition to them. what side of the divide represent democracy? It always has to lie with the people. The clearly partisan speaker and the meddling of the judiciary risk creating a major constitutional crisis and civil unrest. All caused by the dishonesty and unmitigated arrogance of certain MPs. None of which is helped by an entirely ineffectual opposition party..

Churchill described a similar situation in Parliament the 30s and condemned it thus:

as being “decided only to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all-powerful to be impotent”.

"Parliament has shown itself not to be the solution to Brexit but the problem".
Vernon Bogdanor professor of government at King’s College London

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:20 AM

Brexit boost: Scottish judge THROWS OUT Remainer bid to stop Boris suspending Parliament

The judiciary in this case wisely deciding not to get involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:30 AM

The Guardian is reporting that the first challenge to prorogation "has been thrown out." That is a rather dramatic way of putting it. The interim edict would have prevented prorogation before the full hearing, which is going ahead on the 3rd or 4th. But the prorogation cannot happen before the week of the 9th anyway, so such an order would be pointless. That may - or may not - be why the decision is as it is. I will read the full ruling when it is available.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:38 AM

It is confirmed that the judge said "I am nor satisfiedbit has been demonstrated there's a need for an interim suspension or an interimninterdict to be granted at this stage .. I'm going to move the substantive hearing forward to Tuesday."

So, as I suspected, it was all about whether an interim ban before the full hearing was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:50 AM

Just read one of the best summaries of the situation we find ourselves in. I’m not crediting it, because it’s from Twitter (which I avoid like the plague), but reproduced byba third party on FB...

”It's like three people are diagnosed with terminal cancer, so one of them books three tickets to Dignitas so they can all go together. Doc then says it's a misdiagnosis. Two say, "We thought so ... phew, let's cancel the trip." The other says, "Nonsense, I don't believe it. I've got cancer. I know I have. I googled it myself on QuackDoctor dot com. We agreed this trip fair and square. I'm going. And you two are coming with me."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:58 AM

Dave the Gnome posted " But, because the Cameron administration made the most monumental cock up in the history of politics, that is what we are stuck with."

On that I think we can nearly all agree. The idea that people might vote to leave would appear to have never entered his head. They certainly never gave any thought as to what they would do after people had voted to leave.

Dave the Gnome posted "The leave faction have demonstrated that they do not give a toss about democracy by supporting an unelected prime minister subverting parliamentary democracy for his own self gain."

Well unelected prime ministers are not exactly new. Callaghan/Major/Brown spring to mind. I have no doubt that the situation will arise again in the future. How much Boris is doing for himself and how much he is doing for his party remains to be seen. It is always difficult to work out what he is thinking.

A mess is what we have and I do not see any easy way out of it.

Jim Carroll posted "Now the facts of what is likely to happen have been made clear (according to Gove, they have always been available), it shows that the referendum was not conducted correctly - how could a people to be asked to vote with on the basis of suppressed information ?"

I do not agree with the "suppressed information" comment. At the time of the referendum the so called debate was virtually non existent. It just came down to you either wanted to stay or leave. There were very little facts available to help in that decision. No one knew on what basis we would leave and how that would affect us. 3 years later we still don't have any agreement with the EU so we don't know what will happen. We have to prepare for the worst case scenario but it is second guessing.

We might well leave the EU without a deal, to the delight of those that want to do that, but we will still have to make deals afterwards with the EU. That is a simple fact. It would have been nice if we could do that before we leave but..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:03 AM

Backwoodsman, it might depend on whether the fares were refundable or not. Waste not want not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:09 AM

I have seen a lot of comments today that Major prorogued Parliament to avoid Parliament discussing the cash for report. It is worth pointing out that what he actually did was call an election during which he, his MPs and those of other parties would be cross questioned by the media and the people, leading to the electorate finally voting who would be in power.

That bears no relationship to the current prorogation, which avoids questioning and at the end of it the PM will be in place whatever people's views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:13 AM

In haste, to Rain Dog.

"I do find it amusing the way some of you interpret a simple yes/no vote to say that it is not a majority vote. According to that reasoning only 43.35% voted to remain in the EU in the 1975 vote. Should that not have counted?"

The vote shouldn't have happened at all. The decision should have been made by Parliament. I know Jim disagrees. I say that to demonstrate that he and I at least are not one of the Secret Seven (worry not - I know you were kidding...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:14 AM

Er, TWO of the Secret Seven...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:24 AM

Or that neither he nor you is one of the Secret Seven? That is subtly different again ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:25 AM

Bloody hell Steve and DMcG - have you two become apprenticed to Nigel? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM

No, but we are missing him!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:31 AM

"I know Jim disagrees."
It may be that we are in a different position in Ireland but having seen the way referenda works here I can only say - come in and try the water
There are so many vested interests in British Politics that democracy back home has always been "A good idea" (as Gandhi once described Western Civilisation)
I am convinced that the persistent low participation in what should be the most important choice ever obtained by working people - the right to choose who rules them - is down to the utter contempt our politicians are held in
How can a situation like that be regarded as trustworthy on decisions as important as this ?
This antipathy has now given us populism - the opposite of democracy
For all it's flaws, Irish politics has, up to now, supplied a balance which has never been within the reach of the British People
PR and referenda have been very much a part of producing that balance
It is significant that one of the earliest moves of the Northern Unionists while creating their sectarian state was to abolish the former PR system
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM

I'm not a great fan of tweeting as a rule, but a must-share from actor, Hugh Grant
"You will not fuck with my children's future.
You will not destroy the freedoms my grandfather fought in two world wars for to defend.
Fuck off you over-promoted rubber bath-toy.
Britain is revolted by yo and yor litle gang of mastebatory prefects"

Wish I'd said that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 08:38 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:08 AM
About the usual level of meaningful debate!

After three years to debate the issues screeching about losing a couple of days, due to proroguing, is ludicrous.

The court case in scotland cannot have too much merit if the judge did not immediately grant a cease and desist motion for an allegedly illegal action! He needs to spin out his final judgement to give the impression he is giving it due consideration. I would be amazed if he finds for the remainiacs. Even if he does it will be knocked off to a higher court.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 08:40 AM

"No, but we are missing him!"
I think this discussion has been devoid of credible, articulate opposition from day one
I had many political disagreements with MtheGM (Mike Grosvenor Myer), but I'd love to have known his opinion on this mess
As with many subjects that interest me nowadays, those who die are seldom replaced - the inevitable effect of ageing, I suppose

One thing that now occurs to me is that whoever wins this fight will have gained a pyrrhic
The damage done to Britain so far will take decades to repair before any attempts to 'stand on our own two feet' can be even thought about - jobs and businesses lost, a divided people, a shattered Parliamentary system and a legacy of hate and bigotry to be swept aside
It is now doubtful that the UK as an entity will survive (no great harm in that in the long run; it was long past its sell-by date)
Wouldn't with that on anyone, but whoever/whatever it is, I hope they come armed with a new broom
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 08:53 AM

"pyrrhic victory" of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 09:03 AM

Today's Johnson bullshit is that the EU is going to be impressed by his brinksmanship, sharpened all the more by his mischievous proroguing move, and give us a deal. As a change from blaming the EU for not giving its petulant naughty boy (aka the UK) everything it demands, he's now blaming all those who oppose no-deal of making it more likely. It's transparently obvious who's really threatening no-deal: him with his sheer pig-headedness over the do-or-die leaving date. If we crash out, the blame will be one hundred percent his. A single word in your shell-like, Boris: BACKSTOP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:54 AM

Among all the other chicanery, I now see that Dominic Cummings has sacked Saj's special adviser on the spot without telling poor Saj, allegedly for giving away "brexit secrets." Won't be in the job long now, Baldilocks...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:59 AM

I wonder if she could take him to an Employment Tribunal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 06:08 PM

UNDEMOCRATIC:

Lied to wholesale by the leave campaign.

Told we would easily get loads of trade deals,

Told that there would be tons of extra money for the NHS.

Told that a large queue of dark-skinned refugees, depicted on a poster, had something to do with EU immigration.

Irish border issue hardly referred to at all.

No-deal dismissed as impossible, thereafter scarcely referred to.

Unelected prime minister, with no public mandate, prorogues parliament in order to obstruct debate on brexit at the most crucial point in the process.

This unelected prime minister is at the head of a minority government.

An unelected Downing Street insider is apparently calling all the shots. Not too much of a stretch to suppose that he's actually running things, as his latest action in sacking an adviser without reference to that adviser's cabinet minister, would suggest.

This unelected prime minister, in charge of a minority government with no mandate for no-deal, is now accusing ELECTED representatives of the people of making no-deal more likely, when, in reality, it's his pig-headed do-or-die insistence on Halloween that's the only threat

Just bloody sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:00 PM

I do like the statement that it(the referendum) should not have been a binary decision. A ballot is always binary. There are no degrees of yes and no in my world. Perhaps in the rose tinted, luvvie, treehugging, sandal wearing world of remainers other realities exist. Perhaps in their bubble they are trapped in a quantum nightmare.
After all, the Copenhagen interpretation says a quantum system remains in superposition until it interacts with, or is observed by the external world. When this happens, the superposition collapses into one or another of the possible definite states.

Or in the real world conceptually there may be a multiplicity of outcomes but at the point in time that the pen marks the paper Schrodinger's cat has vanished up it's arse and there is but a cross in one of the two options on the ballotpaper, perhaps indicating the spot where the unfortunate animal vanished.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 02:13 AM

BREXIT THOUGHT for the DAY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 04:51 AM

JOHNSON'S REGIME BEGINS TO CRACK
RIGHTIST TERROR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 04:53 AM

NEW FIGURES ON BREXIT'S 'FEELGOOD' EFFECT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 05:11 AM

Jim, the FT article is paywalled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 05:29 AM

So it is - odd - it opened fro me first time around
It is a long article about how right wing politics have turned the streets of Britain into dangerous no-go areas, thanks to Brexit BASED ON THIS GOVERNMENT REPORT
If the Financial Times said it, it must be true - innit !!

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:01 AM

THIS MAN BLAMES REMAINERS - IT MUST BE TRUE THEN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:11 AM

BORIS JOHNSON ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS
We should hang on his every word
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:33 AM

JOHNSON - STANDING BY YOUR STAFF OR KISSING THE RIGHT ARSES
Waoora leader eh !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:37 AM

Instructive to hear "Sadge" (?sp.) squirming around when the ever-polite Mishal Husain reminded him of his condemnation, just a few short weeks ago, of the very idea of prorogation. Here's wot he said in the leadership campaign about it:

The chancellor, Sajid Javid, was also staunchly opposed to shutting down parliament during the Tory leadership campaign. “You don’t deliver on democracy by trashing democracy ... we are not selecting a dictator of our country,” he said. (Nice bit of Grauniad bad sentence construction there...)

A bit different this morning then, Sadge. Wriggle wriggle...

Government by trained liars now, it seems. It was also glaringly noticeable that he wouldn't answer questions about the sacking of his adviser, relationships in Cummings-dominated Number Ten or his row with Johnson. Well I for one think that he should have been answering those questions. Mind you, he would probably have lied had he done so...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:46 AM

Just the people Britain needs to stand on its own feet eh Steve
The world really is 'Waitin' for the Sunrise'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 06:55 AM

As I posted a couple of days ago, Jim, six or seven of 'em expressed their outright horror and disgust at the very thought of prorogation during that campaign. I note that there's no queue forming to offer their resignations. They almost make those old-school Tories of yore look like people of principle...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 07:07 AM

You - carrer always does come before those who voted for them with these turdules - except, of coure, when the electorate can be used as 'the people's voice' to put a bit more on their own bank balance
Ah well - that's 'democracy' for you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:26 AM

It appears that Sajid Javid's Treasury aide, Sonia Khan was sacked on the say so of Johnson's unelected bovver-boy, Dominic Cummings - quite right too - we don't want these bleedin' Muslims forgetting their place and running Britain, do we !!!!

Little wonder there are demonstrations being held throughout Britain today, complaining of their democratic rights being taken away by this shark's swimming pool
Interesting to see that the protestors include leavers as well as remainers
Johnson's going to have to step up his prison-building programme if he's going to stay on top of things
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:58 AM

Just on my way home from the local "Defend Democracy" rally. A hand held loudhailer was passed to anyone who wanted to speak. One person tried to get everyone to rally round Corbyn and was effectively shouted down by loud calls calls of "stop the coup!" until he was obliged to hand the loudhailer back. Several other speakers said they voted leave but protecting democracy was why they were here - and they were warmly welcomed.

Speaker after speaker said that for them, this was not about Brexit, even though that was important. And it was definitely about unity, not party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 09:00 AM

It appears that 'leaking information' now includes telling elected members of your own party/Government what is being done on their behalf - punishment for this heinous crime is in the hands of unelected, tee-shirt thugs - I think they used to be called 'Brownshirts and Blackshirts
Fascinating take on Johnson democracy
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 09:24 AM

"Speaker after speaker said that for them, this was not about Brexit, even though that was important. "
Looks like your demos represent the only thing united in Divided Britain Mac
I hope you have a satisfying day before Boris sends his lads in to sort you all out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 09:50 AM

If a subject is up for discussion on this website, I think it's important that it's predicated on the facts as we know them, not gossip or wish lists. There has been no revelation that Sonia Khan was sacked for leaking and there's no evidence for that. In fact, the few official statements that have emerged suggest to the contrary. From the BBC News website:

"At the meeting with Mr Cummings, Ms Khan, who worked under Mr Hammond, handed over both her personal and work phones, and her phone logs were checked.
Evidence was found that she had been in touch with former colleagues who had worked for Mr Hammond, but not that she had been involved in leaking any sensitive government information.
No reason was given for her dismissal, but the BBC's Iain Watson said it was suggested the issue was about whether she could be trusted to be transparent with No 10."

So let's at least stay on track with that one. Incidentally, though it may not be relevant to the issue, one unassailable fact is that Ms Khan is an avid leaver.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:07 AM

" There has been no revelation that Sonia Khan was sacked for leaking and there's no evidence for that. In fact,"
The Sun said "she couldn't be trusted" - that's enough for me Steve - when have they ever lied !!!
As voters, we are well used to having essential information hidden from us, but when a Prime Minister regards his right-hand-man as not to know what he is doing in regarded to His staff - that's a time to be heading for the air-raid shelters
Even the eejits now running Britain ate at war with each other - even the most anti of anti Brexiteers couldn't have dreamed that one up - utterly crazy to the Strangelove extent
As much as I disagree with them, don't you wish Stanron and Hardy were here to explain what is happening to their party instead of teh Tory Speaking Clock we have to put up with

AN URGENT STATEMENT FROM DOWNING STREET
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:14 AM

"She couldn't be trusted" has been surmised in most of the news reports about this, but not one says that she was sacked for leaking. Anyone who makes that latter claim is either uninformed or has inside knowledge denied to the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:45 AM

THIS IS THE NEAREST THING TO AN EXPLANATION THOUGH JOHNSON HAS DENIED IT
The rumour was that she was responsible for leaking the 'Yellowhammer Survey' ie, telling the public what it needed to know about tye effects of Brexit - the b***** - how dare she !!!!
If the report is right, all this is an indication of a split between those who support Johnson and those who follow Javid - ever-decreasing circles
We need to remember what can happen when this sort of thing occurs IN RIGHT WING POLITICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:47 AM

It's been denied on all sides that she had anything to do with the Yellowhammer leak.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 11:23 AM

They would say that, wouldn't they ?
We are not going to get the truth from any of these pricks
Elsewhere, it is claimed that she leaked Yellowhammer to Elected politician, Philip, who, apparently, is not entitled to be privy to such information because he is against a hard Brexit - if he hasn't the right to be told such things, what the fuck chance have the rest of us got?

One unconfirmed report says that, on the orders of Bovver-Boy Cummings, the police were called to eject Khan and she was unceremoniously frog-marched off the premises -
She had a lucky escape, I would have thought - she could easily have become one of Johnson's 'Disappeared Ones' and her mother would have had to stand outside Number Ten with a placard DEMANDING TO KNOW WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO HER DAUGHTER
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 11:41 AM

She was escorted from Downing Street by a police officer as she'd had her security clearance revoked. That is apparently the standard procedure. I'm not going to get too excited about that. As for Yellowhammer, Downing Street has categorically stated that it wasn't her wot leaked it. At times like this I tend to avoid reports on stuff like this in the tabloids. Actually, I regard all times as times like this. I do occasionally get a free Mail with my Waitrose card, just to see how millions of idiots per day maintain their confirmation bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:30 PM

Whatever the truth of this - it boils down to the fact that this scum don't want those who voted in this friggin' referendum to know what the consequences of their decision are likely to be - but we already knew that
If the Johnson Regime get their wy, this is the shape of things to come - in spades
Why else would prisons and law-and-order been made the priority it has been at a time when Britain is losing is sources of income and security by the multi-billions
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:53 PM

If we are not going to be allowed to know what the possible negative consequences are, then surely all negative consequences must be illegal. If there are medicine/drug shortages, then the pharmacists who are unable to cover prescriptions should be prosecuted. If there are food shortages, then the shop owners who fail to keep their shelves fully stocked should be prosecuted. This is of course pure irony, but this does establish a principle where the responsibility for negative outcomes lie where we are not allowed to k ow what these are, and if we did we are not allowed to act on it. I fear we don't even know a fraction of what is likely to happen over the last few years, and deliberate misdirection to avoid unrest or revolt and a compliant population carries its own dangers. There was a far more sinister example in occupied Europe where Jewish people willingly submitted to registration. Another worry - that of EU nationals registering for settled status/pre-settled status and the increasing number only being accepted for the latter. How would people fare if a future government applied a more rigid immigration policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:20 PM

It has been confirmed that Khan was escorted from the premises by the police without being given a reason for her dismissal on the orders of unelected Gruppenfuhrer Cummings
Thousands jammed the streets around Westminster protesting this undemocratic move - one elderly Irish lady said since the Brexit vote it was the first tim in forty years she had ever encountered racist abuse becaus she was from Ireland
One wonderful London man told the Irish interviewer "after everything we've done to Ireland in the past - now this - I'm ashamed of being British"
More demonstrations have been planned for Tuesday, when Parliament is due to re-open (if it's allowed to!!)

Violent sectarian clashed have been reported in Glasgow
For fuck's sake !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:32 PM

Last night a peaceful Irish Unity march led by a pipe-band was set upon by a stone and petrol bomb hurling mob in Glasgow
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:13 AM

Jeremy Corbyn's own words on the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:41 AM

It' about tie a statement as clear as that was made - hope those in a position to do something about it read it before Tuesday
Been reading up on the Glasgow Unionist attack which some of the press are describing as "between two gangs"
It represents the first skirmish in Farage's Brexit race war - if it isn't nipped in the bud it will happen again - and -again - and again....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:47 AM

The Archbishop of Canterbury has called for Remainers to "stop whingeing" and accept the result of the Brexit referendum.

The Most Rev Justin Welby said those who voted to stay in the EU must now "take seriously the fact that the majority voted Leave", stating: "We may not like it, but that is democracy."


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/31/justin-welby-called-remainers-stop-whingeing-accept-result-brexit/

Nice to know God is firmly onside!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:56 AM

Must write to the pope and tell him that god is alive and well and living in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:31 AM

In fact this is the usual load of shit put out by these people and their bumwipe press
Welby has blamed Brexit for the country being in crisis and has urged those opposing it to 'tone down their language'
Any paddle when your canoe's up shit's creek, I suppose
Who gives a **** what someone who refuses to condemn hompohobia and wears a frock himself says anyway
Certainly not the twats who deliberately misquote him and whose own inhumanity is as far from the taught Christian message as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:32 AM

It is a funny word, 'accept', as in 'accept the result'. I certainly accept that is what the vote was. I accept we will probably leave in some form or other. But I do not accept the interpretation of no-deal is what most people voted for because that was not what the pro-leave proponents claimed would be the result.

But of course, even if they did, it does not mean those of us who thought that was wrong should be silent and just know our place.

Any more that the Suffragettes should just have kept quiet and known their place.

Or the US slaves should just have known their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:47 AM

Yep. And the people opposing no-deal, opposing prorogation and/or opposing brexit altogether are determined to use democratic means only. Democracy doesn't stop when the ballot box is finally locked up. For brexiteers, democracy (their version*) didn't even stop 41 years after the first referendum.

*Inserted because in my view referendums are undemocratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:59 AM

I bit of a ramble coming up, I am afraid, as I try to join several threads together, leading to a concern I have about any further referendum or general election.

One of the speakers at yesterday's "Defend Democracy" meeting said both her parents were German and they left in the summer of 1939. She said she often wonders what the ordinary German thought at that time, but with the current plans to prorogue she thinks she understands now what her parents felt.

I strongly suspect she is mistaken about what most people thought, though. My daughter was working with someone yesterday and so said in passing that she was unable to be at the meeting and the organisers rarely consider people who have to work on Saturdays. That led to a conversation in which it turned out this colleague did not know that Parliament was being prorogued at all, or what that meant. And I imagine that was true in Germany in 1939 as well. A lot of people they would simply have said they were not interested in all that political stuff.

Which brings us to the next election and/or referendum. A lot of Remainers say at least now people will know what they are voting for: it has been made clear in a way it wasn't last time. I think that is wrong, because it does not recognise that the number people really interested - on either side - is relatively small.   The bulk of people have not been following it and perhaps their greatest wish is that it is over somehow. Without a doubt, 'no-deal' sounds like the way to achieve that, even though anyone who has paid any attention knows it is merely the first step of an incredibly long walk.

So I think there is a very good chance Remainers make some critical errors in the next step: far too much on economics and far to little on emotional engagement. Far too glib an assumption that 'people will know what is in store' this time. And far too willing to assume gentlemanly behaviour from their opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 05:17 AM

A confidential file obtained by The Sunday Times from the NHS reveals there is a list of essential medicines that will become immediately unobtainable when Britain leaves the EU
They include treatments for schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, epilepsy, and chronic pain
Despite having claimed that last week's 'Yellowhammer' document was "out of date", the government have responded that they are "doing their best to ascertain there are no shortages" - aka "we have done **** all"
They are not even singing from their own hymn sheet

I hope you are wrong about the remainers Mac - it must be very difficult to concentrate on emotions when the opposition to this fiasco includes both remainers and leavers - very mixed emotions already
I was staggered at the number of leavers who were interviewed on the demonstrations yesterday - all marching under the same banner.
It seems Johnson has shot himself in both feet and has now abandoned the merits of leaving appealing to the Tory rebels with "the alternative to me is Corbyn chaos" - the age-old "back me or you'll be out of a job" ploy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 06:05 AM

The sooner a general election the better. All the traitors will have to be thrown out of the Tory party and Labour MPs will have to make very clear what side they are batting for, and all the Libdem supporters will have to decide what they are all about. I suspect many of them were but protest voters. The big unknown is who will vote for the brexit party?
where will they stand?
Do Farage and Boris have a pact?
Who really supports Corbyn?
How many remainers respect the democratic will of the majority and will vote for Brexit?

No polls can come close to predicting with any accuracy until the roadmap is clear.
Parliament may control the legislative but government controls the executive and reports ultimately to the Queen and the people.
An unelected rabble trying to pass binding legislation is an affront to democracy because they have no accountability.
They say no taxation without representation,
Likewise no legislation without representation.
There can be but one legally constituted government at any one time, the remoaner's way leads to anarchy and strife, simply because they refuse to accept the will of the people.
None of your fatuous arguments can destroy that self evident truth.
You backed the wrong horse, hence your long faces!
Democracy demands the majority vote dictates outcomes, and the people made their wishes very clear.
Your arguments about people changing their mind have no substance.
Your claim people have died and hence the outcome has changed is risible.
Your threat to withhold flue jabs for brexiteers is simply spiteful and pathetic.
Your childish arguments over the referendum statistics simply demonstrate the vacuity of your arguments, well exemplified by your constant attempts to control the narrative by trying to ban contributors, accuse them of trolling and of course the never endingstrings of insults.

In thousands of posts you have changed NOTHING, apart from stalling the departure for three years, frustrate any meaningful dialogue with the EU and created endless uncertainty for business and cost the country billions.
The sooner you rabble raising remoaners are routed, the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 06:35 AM

A MESSAGE ON BEHALF OF BREXIT
A Patriot

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM

So now Gove is refusing to rule out the possibility that the government will ignore any new law legitimately passed to prevent no-deal. I think I'll start calling it a regime, not a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 09:06 AM

I just watched "The Andrew Marr Show" where, when asked if they would abide a law passed by both houses and given royal assent, his response was "let's see what the law says."

It would be the law, whatever it said. Declaring you may not abide by it is definitely coup territory, whatever your view on the prorogation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 09:16 AM

" "let's see what the law says." "
That sent a chill up my spine too
Isn't it amazing how our glorious leader's nodding dogs who scream "traitor" the loudest are those who are fully in support of this dangerous extremism ?
One wonders "traitors to what" exactly, it certainly has little to do with democracy as I understand it
Whare the hell are Stan(ron) and Ollie when you need them ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:08 AM

Steve, surely that's seriously fucked up - how can they ignore an act of parliament?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:20 AM

"how can they ignore an act of parliament?"
Watch this space
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:46 AM

So now Gove is refusing to rule out the possibility that the government will ignore any new law legitimately passed to prevent no-deal. I think I'll start calling it a regime, not a government.

Royal assent is the method by which a monarch formally approves an act of the legislature (either directly, or through an official acting on the monarch's behalf). In some jurisdictions, royal assent is equivalent to promulgation, while in others that is a separate step. Under a modern constitutional monarchy royal assent is considered to be little more than a formality; even in those nations which still, in theory, permit the monarch to withhold assent to laws.

the monarch almost never does so, save in a dire political emergency or upon the advice of their government. While the power to veto a law by withholding royal assent was once exercised often by European monarchs, such an occurrence has been very rare since the eighteenth century.

Royal assent is the final step required for a parliamentary bill to become law. Once a bill is presented to the sovereign or the sovereign's representative, he or she has the following formal options:

    the sovereign may grant royal assent, thereby making the bill an Act of Parliament.
    the sovereign may delay the bill's assent through the use of his or her reserve powers, thereby vetoing the bill.[2]
    the sovereign may refuse royal assent on the advice of his or her ministers

An unelected rabble trying to force legislation through with the connivance of a clearly partisan speaker overlook one vital factor.
Without accountability there is no legitimacy. The government in power does not have to offer bills for Royal assent when they no control over the content.
The legitimate way to rebel is through a vote of no confidence thereby triggering aGeneral Election.
Compo the compost king knows he would be thrashed into oblivion should the election arise. Hence he will even frustrate that course of action.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

"An unelected rabble"
Another one for Max's list
It's certainly stacking upi nicely
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

Just to point out the obvious, Gove was saying they might not abide by the law EVEN IF HAD ROYAL ASSENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

Whilst I regard Gove as a snivelling Tory git (just my measured opinion, of course), I'm amazed at his complete loss of sure-footedness here. I'd bet that he'll be on telly a fair bit in the next couple of days wriggling and squirming over what he's said.

(And just a tiny whisper: let's be careful who we choose to respond to. The current efforts are working a treat...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 11:17 AM

I'd bet that he'll be on telly a fair bit in the next couple of days wriggling and squirming over what he's said.

Perhaps. Or he might be Cummingsed. Only into solitary, though. Even Cummings would think twice before advising Johnson to sack him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 11:28 AM

"(And just a tiny whisper: let's be careful who we choose to respond to. The current efforts are working a treat...)
Just wool-gathering to myself Steve - he'd doing quite well displaying the level of his own erudition without our help.
Thanks for the reminder
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:04 PM

I would have thought ignoring a law of Parliament would be contempt of Parliament, which has punishments that could extent to imprisonment, even for an MP. Nothing seems to exclude that MP being a PM that I have read so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:21 PM

"would have thought ignoring a law of Parliament"
Me too, but is's apparently not how populist democracy works
I could have sworn that Parliament voted overwhelmingly way back not to crash out of Europe without a deal
YUP - THERE YOU GO
Yet here we are facing a no-deal Brexit
Brexit has left a long and growing trail of casualties and fatalities - Parliamentary Democracy seems to be among them
Where lie the traitors in this sorry saga ?
Personally, I'm pinning my hopes on the forthcoming legal challenges, but we all know that those who can pay the most get the most ustice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:28 PM

At the risk of being a bit Nigelly, the vote saying Parliament did not want a no-deal was not a law. It was an expression of a wish, but it did not have legal standing. But what we would be talking about in a law passed next week - if indeed it was - would be framed as a law, and so subject to the contempt procedures if, for example, the Government refused to offer it for royal assent.

And I didn't get that from Wikipedia!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM

I would have thought ignoring a law of Parliament would be contempt of Parliament, which has punishments that could extent to imprisonment, even for an MP. Nothing seems to exclude that MP being a PM that I have read so far.

I wonder why a vote of no confidence is not called?

Too many MPs scared to put their money where their mouth is? I am sure the game plan is to force a General Election, despite the fixed term Parliament Act.

Placing the government in the invidious position of being forced to submit legislation for Royal Assent that they are vehemently opposed to raises all sorts of intriguing possibilities about circumventing the Opposition and Fixed term Parliament Act.
I am sure it has all been carefully choreographed and game planned to box steptoe senior into an election he does not want, cannot win and destroy Labour for generations.

Bring it on I say. All those Brexit party elective MPs stand ready.
The only problem is how to best use Widdecombe? Assuming we have left before the election she would make a stunning speaker to replace the poisonous dwarf.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:35 PM

If the government ignores the law, then the entire UK MUST also be exempt form all UK laws and the prisons must release every prisoner anything else is hypocrisy. The UK is a cesspit and everyone who voted Tory has made it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:43 PM

I have no difficulty imagine a party political broadcast in say December:

Aerial shot: Lorry queues at Dover

Cut to Raab: I did not appreciate the importance of Dover

Cut to: reports of medical shortages

Cut to Boris - it's just a bump in the road.

Cut to: Depleted shelves in a supermarket

Cut to: Gove - its just a bump in the road

Cut to: Report of Some Major Factory shutting

Cut to: Boris - a bump in the road.


=====
Not all of those scenes may happen, but I feel confident an equivalent can be found. If I were Labour and only concerned with maximising my electoral chances, I would not push for a vote of no confidence until late November or December. Keep all the focus on legislative means to prevent no deal at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:54 PM

I agree entirely with SBP
I think that, if anything, this long-running farce has dropped all pretence of a democracy that gets in the way of the personal interests of the great and the good in our society
The veneer seems to have rubbed so thin as to be non-existent
Any politician (or businessman, for that matter) who can claim to be helping Britain to "stand on her own two feet" and then miss off and put his money into Singapore or European Ireland have to be mentally deficient (or think we are) to believe they will be taken seriously (as shown by those who defend it here)
This is the level of contempt in which we are regarded
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

Irish news headlines lead with "British Minister refuses to say whether or not he and his boss are prepared to abide by Parliamentary decisions - I think the "we'll see what they are - we're not buying a pig-in--a-poke" curled the newsreader up somewhat
Someone locally referred to Brexit as "Ireland's revenge for Bernard Manning" the other day - went into my repertoire immediately
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

Just to point out the obvious, Gove was saying they might not abide by the law EVEN IF HAD ROYAL ASSENT.

At the risk of being a pedant the word legislation was used by Gove. It is not law until passed by both houses and given Royal Assent

"Following the Royal Assent, the Act of Parliament will usually come into force at midnight of that date. However, there has been a growing trend for Acts of Parliament not to come into force immediately. Instead the Act itself either states the date when it will commence, or the Act passes responsibility to the appropriate minister to fix the date when the Act will come into force. In the latter case the minister will bring the Act into force by issuing a commencement order."

Legislation is not law until given royal assent. You have the cart before the horse- This is most remiss of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

"At the risk of being a bit Nigelly..."

The word you're looking for is "Nigelliferous." Hope you don't mind the nitpicking. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

Just a note, an "unelected rabble" are in fact elected Member of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:48 PM

If you want to talk about unelected rabble (I'd rather not), well there's our unelected prime minister in charge of a minority government (unelected by the electorate) which is being run behind the scenes by an unelected bully of a special adviser in Number Ten. This unelected bunch are so arrogant that they believe they have some sort of "mandate." Let's hope they get put right this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:08 PM

The most outrageous of the unelected rabble is Dominic Cummings - a tee-shirt wearing thug with the power to dismiss the staff of elected ministers
Fuckibg outraueous
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:45 PM

The most outrageous of the unelected rabble is Dominic Cummings - a tee-shirt wearing thug with the power to dismiss the staff of elected ministers
Fuckibg outraueous

As a point of accuracy I need to point out the "unelected rabble" you refer to is the legally constituted government. A contradiction in terms, doncha think?

Dominic Cummings is a spad. That means he is an appointee, not elected.
He is the 'mad eye Moody' of the Tories, an 'auror' teaching defense against the dark arts of the coup plotting rabble hell bent on defying the sovereignty of the people.

A very useful laddie to have onside judging by the resultant squealing coming from the losers.

(When the swearing and insults start you know they have lost the argument and incoherent rage takes over.) Tickety tock. time and tide waits for no man!

Now! What about that no confidence vote? Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
Verily I say to you, a true popcorn moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 07:25 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

"At the risk of being a bit Nigelly..."

The word you're looking for is "Nigelliferous." Hope you don't mind the nitpicking. :-)


As opposed to "Steve Shaw inventions"

I have had very little input into this debate recently. But Steve Shaw talks a load of crap, and expects everyone to accept his prognostications.

He is even willing to attack my comments, with no explanation why, just to make a general comment. Moderators, please take note!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:06 PM

Ah, good to see you, Nigel. Not so good that you ignore the fact that, along with several other contributors with whom you disagree, I try to argue the substance of the issue. A hint, Nigel: you are quick to criticise, but you will be ultimately be judged by those who you choose NOT to criticise, and there's one egregious example here about whom you are oddly silent......

That's how it is round here. Raggy and I don't agree about our approach to poor Iains. Jim and I disagree about referendums, and I'm sure Jim won't mind if I tell you that he's even suggested that we start a "referendum" thread so that he and I can scrap. It might happen if I can muster the energy. BWM has told me to eff off on a number of occasions and pfr and I commonly adopt different and incompatible perspectives. But you, as a right-winger, attempt to single out us lefties, one at a time, for your nitpicking negative attacks. We call that tribalism, Nigel. I know that Liverpool FC is the greatest team on earth, always was, always will be, and that Man U stink. I'm a unashamed footie tribalist. But on the matter of brexit my only focus is on what's best for this country. I don't expect anyone to agree about my take. But I put my case, and have done over many posts. It takes effort. You should try that approach yourself some time. We've seen very little of it from you so far. The nitpicking thing with you can look like a joke. But it's your main modus operandi, unfortunately. Perhaps you use it as compensation for the fact that you can't actually debate. Now there's a challenge for you. Prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM

We can handle him, SPB. We've been doing really well at handling forum nuisances this last couple of weeks. Keep your cool, don't react, and just watch as they get ever more shrill and neurotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:28 PM

We've been trying hard to blank you-know-who, SPB, and it's working. Worth remembering that only a handful of people ever read his posts. And I for one am not one of them any more. Let's keep the thread going!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:08 AM

Not only should everyone not speak to YKW, neither should they speak about him. Any reference to him can be construed by both YKW, and the powers that be, as ‘provocation’ and can be used to justify his school-playground behaviour.

Blank him completely. That is the only way to demonstrate who the real Problem Poster is - otherwise, everyone who participates becomes a ‘bastard’ in the eyes of ‘Them Upstairs’.

You know it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:11 AM

And some news of yet more Proroguing proposals...any views, Steve? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:11 AM

Nigel has said he has deliberately avoided this discussion - I think if I was in his position and defending the events he needs too defend,, I might have decided to do the same
I see little point in antagonising him now he has returned - we need a far more intelligent input from Brexit supporters thna we have had so far, God knows
Talking about other posters gets threads closed - back to our muttons

Haven't been out for the paper, are the tanks rolling up Whitehall yet !!
Any minute now; Johnson's only got till tomorrow
SPAD = 'Secretly Promoted and Authorised Doorkeeper' from his behaviour and that of those who allow him to act as the thug Cummings obviously is - Germany's 'New Order' was riddled with them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:20 AM

Irish border after Brexit – all ideas are beset by issues says secret paper


A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.
Critics said the paper, seen by the Guardian, should “ring alarm bells” across government over how likely it is that alternative arrangements to the backstop will be found.
The dossier marked “official-sensitive” prepared for the EU Exit Negotiations Board is dated 28 August. It details how the findings of all advisory groups informing the government on the Northern Irish border are being kept deliberately under wraps to try to avoid hampering Britain’s intended renegotiation of the backstop agreed to by Theresa May.


I don't think that will come as a surprise to anyone who bothered to read the 272 page report and subject it to any kind of critique.

I have said elsewhere - not necessarily in these threads - that *every* border by definition does two things

a) It permits something which meets certain rules to pass.
b) It prevents things that don't meet those rules from passing.

This is basic stuff, surely. Yet the whole 272 page report concentrates of the first of these - trusted trader schemes, anyone - and virtually ignores the second. Indeed at one point it admits the second may get worse than it is now, but offers the opinion it won't.

Again basic stuff: opinions are not mechanisms.

In any case, the essence of the reasons why they think it won't rely on things that the US paper on thier trading objectives wants removed as part of any trade deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:45 AM

Love the last link, BWM. Sums up what is happening perfectly :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM

Terrible things facts. By every metric remainers lost the referendum.
It only needed a one vote majority for the valiant brexiteers to win. They gained in excess of a million.
    The only reason the rebels in Parliament are acting the way they are is because they know they have no mandate from the people. It is the people who have sovereignty and elect MPs to represent them.
    That these rebels do not go to the people to firmly establish their mandate is very telling. They know they will not only lose,but lose their cosy sinecures as well. That tells one all that is needed about the "calibre" of these destroyers of democracy.
   Both they and the partisan speaker are on the brink of replacement.
Time to suspend him while those bullying allegations are investigated doncha think?
There are many ways of skinning a cat.

A question for the screeching minority.

WHY are you scared to obtain a fresh mandate from the people by way of a no confidence vote and General Election?
I will answer it for you. It is because you losers would resoundingly lose again and again ahd again.Remember Farage and his Brexit party cleaned up in the EU elections. He has had no chance to field his popular party in the UK yet, and you are scared of him!(Cue drivelling abuse)
Go on make my day. PROVE ME WRONG!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

Amusing myself by writing a draft speech for Corbyn if Boris calls for a vote of no confidence. This is what I would say. Of course, he may take a different tack entirely.

Mr Speaker:
Labour has been clear that it will do everything it can to prevent a no-deal. We have also been clear that we will call for a vote of no confidence at a time of our choosing.

The Prime Minister has been equally clear that he would pick the date of a general election after October 31st which would ensure we have left by that date. As Parliament would not be sitting, that would be a no-deal exit, because we would be unable to vote for any other deal. Because we are committed to preventing no-deal, we cannot agree to that. For that reason, we will call for a vote of no confidence at a time of our choosing, but we will not support one today.

Some will argue that by not declaring no confidence today we will make a no deal more likely. I would answer that any responsibility for a no deal lies with the Prime Minister - we will not absolve him of that. He has the authority to bring back a deal to this house and has declared many times he will do so. We give him that choice. The choice is also with him to recommend the House revokes Article 50: that option is always available to him to prevent a no deal if he wished to take it. We give him that choice. We have heard talk that he wants to run an election saying Parliament is preventing him from negotiating a deal: we choose not to prevent him negotiating.

Mr Speaker, I can confirm once again that Labour will call a Vote of No Confidence at a time of our choosing. Today is not that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM

I should have said that is my speech if we do not have a agreed GNU ready and waiting in the wings that we could deploy immediately. In that situation my speech would be different, but I don't think that is ready at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:54 AM

From a post of the 9th August:

"I am all for a second referendum,but subject to the same constraints others have argued for on this forum. It will not alter Brexit unless remainers achieve a majority greater than 65% of the vote."

From a post today:

"Terrible things facts. By every metric remainers lost the referendum.It only needed a one vote majority for the valiant brexiteers to win."

Compare and contrast!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:01 AM

Hitler gone viral
Johnson has threatened to withdraw the whip from all Tory MPs who vote against him and ban them from standing in future elections

Headlines in today's Times
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:10 AM

Sound good to me DMcG. As long as preventing a no deal doesn't include making a worse deal! I and many others have said from the start that this disaster is completely the fault of the Tories. They got us in it and they should shoulder the responsibility. The only possible benefit I see from brexit is the destruction of the Tory party. They have already tried to shift the blame elsewhere but, if Corbyn is considering what you suggest, the timing should be when they have dug themselves so far into the mire that they can never get out.

Of course getting a good deal with the EU or not leaving at all would be preferable but is that feasible at this stage? Unlike some Tories, who would prefer to see their own party in ruins to not leaving, I believe that those who really do value parliamentary democracy would be quite forgiving of anyone who could sort out this shambles to the benefit of the whole population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM

Well, BWM, I think Jurgen is far too inclusive for that. And never forget that Bill Shankly (aka God) was an ardent socialist of the finest kind, and 'twas he who set the Liverpool ethos for ever more!   

Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to refer to Fergie at Man U (or Manure as some Liverpool fans are apt to call them) as the Dominic Cummings of football. Fergie didn't exactly frogmarch his uppity types out of the club, but he was known to throw things around the dressing room in a rage, and he made some of the best footballers persona non grata. Ask Becks, he'd tell you! That's the Boris method, innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM

LOL Steve!

Although I played local league football until I was 30-ish, I’m not a great football fan nowadays. I’m more into cricket and Rugby (both the men’s game and Union!). But, if I had to declare allegiance to a club other than Leeds Utd., it would probably be Liverpool.

Anyway, back to our impending act of National Self-Harm...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:47 AM

From the Guardian website:

Here is a Press Association list of members of the cabinet who have defied the government whip this year - sustaining Philip Hammond’s claim that Boris Johnson is being “staggeringly hypocritical”.

Boris Johnson, prime minister: Voted against Theresa May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

Dominic Raab, foreign secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

Priti Patel, home secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in all three votes

Grant Shapps, transport secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

Theresa Villiers, environment secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in all three votes

Esther McVey, housing minister: Voted against May’s Brexit deal twice

Amber Rudd, work and pensions secretary: Abstained in vote on ruling out no-deal Brexit in all circumstances in March, despite government MPs being under orders to vote against

Jacob Rees-Mogg, leader of the Commons: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

So what was OK in Tory ranks then isn't going to be OK now. Wow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:08 AM

"So what was OK in Tory ranks then isn't going to be OK now. Wow."
Withdrawing the whip is bad enough but banning from standing as a candidate in future elections destroys any claim to democracy that the Tory Party have
Basically it means that the Mps are selected by the Prime Minister on the basis that they support what he wants
That is as 'indicated' a dictatorship as it gets
The mask is now off - Britain is heading for dictatorship status
Cummings will probably be given the job of creating an SS !!
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

Sound good to me DMcG. As long as preventing a no deal doesn't include making a worse deal!

I think the only 'deal' option available is the withdrawal agreement unchanged, with something different in the political declaration. That is the position in my opinion whether it is Johnson or Corbyn negotiating. While it is definitely a great deal worse that the soft Brexit I thought might be negotiated (which would of course be in line with the referendum), it is still a lot better than no deal. And since the declaration is not legally binding, a new government could go in a different direction anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:09 AM

A simply spiffing gem from the source of truth GUIDO Fawkes!

Over the last couple of days, Government ministers have avoided answering whether they would allow the Queen to approve to any legislation passed by Parliament designed to prevent Brexit on the 31st. Naturally, Remainers have reacted with outrage…

Back in January a Policy Exchange paper by Sir Stephen Laws QC argued that the executive’s role in approving legislation is fundamental to the UK’s constitution, and passing laws without executive approval upsets the UK’s constitutional order.

Guido can now reveal there is extensive precedent of Governments asking the Queen to not sign legislation they don’t approve. Anti-Brexit spokesman Tony Blair himself used this power on a number of occasions to “quell politically embarrassing backbench rebellions”. Perhaps most notably to block a bill by Tam Dalyell in 1999 that aimed to give MPs a vote on military action against Saddam Hussein.

Going further back, Labour PM Harold Wilson used the Queen’s veto to kill off two “politically embarrassing bills” about peerages and Zimbabwean independence, in 1964 and 1969 respectively

Alastair Campbell has been reacting furiously to Gove’s refusal to commit the government to obeying any law parliament passes; when asked about Blair using the same tactic, he conveniently failed to recall the case…

I see plenty of Remainiac sails, but, alas alack NO WIND

The spads have obviously done all their homework and got gold stars for all their 'sums'.(Unlike the abbaccus)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM

That is as 'indicated' a dictatorship as it gets

Serious, agreed, but there are stronger indications. The suggestion that if the houses both agree legislation the PM may not recommend royal assent is replacing a '1Megaton' constitutional breach - the Government may defy the law - with a '100Megaton' one - the PM has an effective veto on anything the houses agree. That would of course apply to all Prime Ministers and, for example, amendments to legislation the PM did not like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM

I was listening to a law expert picking his way through the legal implications of these draconian measures - complicated to say the least, which leads us to hope that the final judgement is not in the hands of people with a Bragenda
I've all but given up on expecting fair play and common sense from Britain any more - The bizzare Johnson, Gove and Cummins Cirque du Soleil is just about the straw that sends UK democracy to destruction
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:44 AM

And there's something else. If all this implodes on Johnson he'll call an election which he will almost certainly win. Then he can do whatever he wants. I have a strong feeling that this is the plan. We are living in a world in which brainless populism holds all the cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:00 AM

They must have issued a different prayer book in Gotham!
The treacherous joker

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM

If all this implodes on Johnson he'll call an election which he will almost certainly win

Because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act, Johnson can only do this with Corbyn's support. Unfortunately Corbyn's remarks today suggest he will give it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:23 AM

The chaos in Westminster it almost palpable
Johnson is said to be holding a cabinet meeting (what will be left of them if he goes on the way he is doing) this afternoon on how to deal with Tory rebels (the utter contempt for democracy by calling those who oppose the Prime Minister "Rebels" is the stuff that feeds a dictatorship)
Despite the fact that there was a sectarian riot in Glasgow and three sectarian incidents in Belfast over the weekend, the Northern Ireland Secretary's visit has been cancelled, so the pretence of supporting the province seems to have ridden off into the sunset
Corbyn is supporting te idea of a general election, which is what all this seems to be about anyway
I don't know if Labour can win, but if they can't Britain can forget anything that resembles democracy for some time to come
No wonder Johnsong announced a massive spending on law and order and prisn's - he's going to need it
Never mid - Mike Pence is visiting Ireland this week - maybe he can nip over to London to give them some tips on 'Special Rendition' U.S. style - never know, might come in handy   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM

Several things. If Johnson gets an election, it's then in his gift to call it for after October 31. That will mean no-deal. Next, Labour is, in my view, is likely to lose an election, either before or after that date. I hear Tony Blair and I share his fears (I don't share much else with him).

The right thing to happen would be an extension to Article 50 until at least several months after an election, giving the new administration time to carry out its stated manifesto policy on brexit, which could mean trying to strike a deal (away from the current frenetic chaos), or to organise another referendum. That would best serve the interests of the country. This administration hasn't got the slightest interest in that, unfortunately, but they have all the best populist tunes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM

An interesting snippet on Constitutional Law/convention that impedes the renegade's plans to force legislation through:

Any Bill that has an impact on the Royal Prerogative requires 'Royal Consent' to even be discussed and debated. This has been withheld on numerious occasions and rightly so. Also any Bill that would lead to public expenditure requires, under standing orders, a money resolution which only the Government can move. The second issue is that of Royal Assent. This is the process by which any Bill becomes Law and is usually a formality.

All grist to the mill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:04 AM

...Although it transpires that Johnson could make an assurance that any election would take place before October 31. I have a nasty feeling that that would not help Labour at all. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Blair's elephant-trap warning. Unfortunately, Jeremy has made himself a hostage to fortune by repeatedly calling for a general election. I think he'd better start to attach a whole load of conditions to his call.

In the meantime, UK industrial output is falling faster now than at any time in the last seven years...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:24 AM

You've gorra larf at all this or you'll end up as psychotic as y.n.w.
Wonderful cartoon in the bumwipe press over the weekend showing Johnson and Gove barricaded in number 10 with the queen tied to a chair and crowds outside the window - Johnson is screaming through a megaphone "We want free passage to No-Deal or the old lady gets it"

Even Murdoch's Muckrakers don't take this lot seriously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM

As Elephant Traps go, this one is unusual in that it comes with flashing lights, huge arrows and klaxons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM

I'm fearing the worst. Though I do wonder what would happen if (a) all the Scottish Tories lost their seats, (b) a considerable number of Tory "rebels" stood as independents and won their seats, as some undoubtedly would, (c) there was significant LibDem resurgence, which I'd also expect. One thing I'm not particularly scared of is Farage and his bunch of eejits. They'll get votes but not seats, and they'll take votes off both big parties.

We'd need a progressive coalition that takes seriously the prospect of brexit not happening at all. Complicated for Labour, but these are times of crisis...

Or am I clutching at straws...

Or am I beginning to sound like Polly Toynbee...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

while many of us are furious at the suggestion that our children should work until 75 , am i right in thinking that jeremy corbyn is about 70....so would be a prime minister at75 if he won an election shortly. sorry, just too old - show a bit of solidarity jez. you've done a great job and i will always support our manifesto- but need to stand down in the national interest. i note it's keir starmer's birthday (57) today - many happy returns.

i don't feel good about this, or the fact that we are almost relying on the emergence of tories with a bit of a conscience and intelligence. but it's hard times in old england

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

I would quite like Starmer, but I read today that the Corbynista (whoever they are) see Rebbecca Long-Bailey as the natural successor. Not for me, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM

I was just asked a question by my wife that I really don't know the answer to - not for the first time, of course.

If an election were called, would there by any significant change in NI parties?

I suspect each individual's vote is sufficiently tied up with other matters that it would not, but that really is guesswork. But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

One interesting feature should an election be called is that nobody knows where the Labour Party stands on Brexit.

They voted to leave in the referendum
They voted to leave when voting for article 50
They voted to leave in the 2017 General Election
Labour has been bleating consistantly for an election.
Now when they have the opportunity they back off. Is this because their revolving manifesto has a few fatal flaws?
Nothing to do with the idiot McDonnell wanting to sell people's second homes at discounted rates of course.(in Flagrant breach of human rights legislation) He would be torn a new one in the courts before the ink was dry on the paper. But this is the same joker hellbent on nationalising everything. Again in opposition to existing EU legislation.
I wonder what other vote winning wheezes he has up his sleeve prior to an election. A party led by a geriatric and a raging lunatic designing policy soundbites to lose an election. Boris's opposition dream team I would say.

The news just keeps getting better and better, now we have a PM with a pair! What an exciting week! Are we finally taking our country (Constitution) back from Brussels?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:41 PM

"But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant."
Position in the Northern counties is obscured by the fact that Governance there has been for over two years
The DUP is in decline and the party riven with scandals
Corbyn's age is of no relevance if he is capable of leading and if the party is run on the lines that he can me democratically replaced when he becomes unfit for the job
It's about time parties were chosen on the basis of their policies and not on the charisma (or otherwise) of who leads them
I'd long ceased voting for any of the bastards when Corbyn came along - our young war criminal Blair did it for me
If the coup is going to be defeated, it will only be by a combination of efforts by the sensible and democratic members of all parties anyway - I'd back Corbyn before any of the others as caretaker leader and certainly before a new kid on the block
Corbyn has had the support of young Labour up to now - pretty well unprecedented for any party - but they have proved they are keeping an eye on how he lives up to their trust - you don't get healthier politics than that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:57 PM

Strange - I thought I heard the rumble of tanks and keep getting flashes of KEEP AMERICA GREAT - imagination, I hope
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

No election, desptie the afct that Johnson has just made an election speech telling the world how his is going to fight crime and pour money into education
He is going to "persuade our friend in the EU to change their minds about the backstop and get them to agree to sell out their members
A moron who agrees with hs policies say that the Government must be allowed to govern, ignoring the fact that Johnson is proposing to close down parliament so it can't
Just like the barbers cat - all wind and piss - nothing has changed
Johnson's speech was accompanied by mass chanting from the thousands in Whitehall ("rentamob" as the Johnsons of British politics regard them)
Didn't notice the raised-arm salute, but I'm sure that they're being perfected
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:43 PM

The rumour is that he will call for an election if the vote goes against him. But as we have remarked, that needs Labour to vote for it. It would have a strange irony if his attempts to have an election were blocked by his proroguement of Parliament.

And yes, I know he said he didn't want an election and the electorate didn't either. If that is not a preparation to say he was forced into it by the antidemocratic people in Parliament I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

An interesting speech off Boris. Superficially very wishy washy. Seems to have had the desired outcome of fooling people.

Sun Tzu in three dimensional chess, choreographed by Boris, Moggie and 007Dominic Cummings with a side order of Baldrick.

Should be entertaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:25 PM

"If his attempts to have an election were blocked by his proroguement of Parliament."
Surely he is now up his own hole over this one ?
If the vote goes against him he has threatened to withdraw the whip from and prevent from standing in future elections, all who voted against him
Each constituency where this has happened will have to hold elections to select their new MPs - unless all MPs in future are going to ce chosen by the Prime Minister
I'd love to be a fly on those walls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:26 PM

Perhaps Boris considers (if he is capable of such) that he cannot rely on his, and Cummings, bullying to bring his own party into line.

Interesting times indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:34 PM

"that he cannot rely on his, and Cummings, bullying to bring his own party into line."
What do you think the 'law and order' and new prisons are all about ?
One of the issues raised by Yellowhammer was the likelihood of civil disorder
Of course - it might all be a coincidence - and my jack's a kipper
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:39 PM

The people can go hang for all Johnson, Cummings and their ilk are concerned. Members of their own party are slightly more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

I'm beginning to come around to the idea that the best thing that could happen now that if one of the parties organised a large demonstration in London (there are some planned), marched them up Whitehall and around Parliament and just asked them to sit down, that might clear a few blocked drains
Non-violent and not necessarily long term - just enough to stop a few lines of traffic
Worled wonders in the U'S. with the Civil Rights and scrainly set the shit flying at the fan with CND
I have always had pictures of those supporting the miners walking through the West End
I'd die with a broad grin to see that happen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:06 PM

They care not a fig about anyone, just as long as their immensely-wealthy pay-masters are able to continue their tax-dodging unhindered. That is all Brexit has ever been about. All the stuff about Sovereignty, unelected bureaucrats, immigrants, £350 million for the NHS, Take Back Control, et al was the horse-puckey they used to play on the fears of ordinary people in order to get their way and persuade them to vote Leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

"the NHS"
I woud guess that, considering the pile of shit that now passes for a Government in Britain, Trump's offer to buy this potential gold mine is being considered at this very moment
Guarding against Civil Disorder doesn't some for free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:52 PM

Jim,
You've made this comment three times now:
If the vote goes against him he has threatened to withdraw the whip from and prevent from standing in future elections, all who voted against him

Boris has not said he will prevent them from standing for parliament. He will prevent them from standing for parliament as Conservative candidates. There is a big difference, as implied in Steve Shaw's comment:
I'm fearing the worst. Though I do wonder what would happen if (a) all the Scottish Tories lost their seats, (b) a considerable number of Tory "rebels" stood as independents and won their seats, as some undoubtedly would,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:17 PM

I think everyone understood what Jim meant, Nigel. Not everyone needs everything spelling out.

Found any good forecasts about brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:27 PM

But I'm so glad that you found ME to be accurate, Nige. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:32 PM

The best forecast for brexit so far is the end of October, assuming the people's sovereignty is nor usurped by renegades yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:13 PM

Interesting my earlier post was deleted. Yet the insult it was addressing From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM is allowed to remain.

More political moderation on mudcat?

Of course it does not alter the fact that the shouty minority on here lost the referendum.

All insults from the left remain, structured rebuttals from the right are deleted. why is that I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:44 PM

From Terry Chritian - Journalist, presenter and Professional Mancunian!

Lets say we brexit on 31 st
October. Can any leave voters tell
what problems in their lives will
now be solved ? How will having
left the EU improve life for you and
your family ? What is the 1 st thing
you're hoping our govt does that
the EU were preventing it from
doing ?

Anyone care to answer that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:01 AM

Newsnight last night was interesting. While no one was quite counting chickens, the working assumption was that legislation would be passed today obliging the Government to bring back a deal or ask for another extension. Two Labour speakers said it would not support a "no-confidence" motion if Johnson brings one forward. I sincerely hope they are right. The panel of pundits all agreed that that would put the Government in an exceptionally difficult position and unless Cummings really is a genius and has some plan they couldn't see, the Government is snookered. It would actually have to do what it has been blustering away about and come up with a deal or go past 31 October.

It is looking like those famous clocks that Mr Johnson had ticking down to Brexit day may have been set wrongly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM

"He will prevent them from standing for parliament as Conservative candidates"
He has overstepped his authority to create a Conservative Party in his own image - isn't that what Stalin did. or doesn't it matter to you as a conservative ?
Once a national leader is allowed to get away with that, a Government becomes a monolithing dictatorship with everything that goes with it.
That is what you and yours have accused Corbyn of doing - yet he had made a point of taking the membership with him
Corbyn is a popular (of the (Labour) people) leader) - yours is one who has been appointed by the top echelons of your party and who is now culling those who oppose him and threatening to do the same throughout your whole party
If that doesn't bother you than you'd better get word perfect in singing from your fuehrer's hymn sheet - but please don't try and impose your nodding-dogism on the rest of the country
Johnson is a mindless clown who is happy to act as a poodle to the world's most dangerous mindless degenerate leader
How dare you people allow him to ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:56 AM

Just reading about a potential flame that has been started in Northern Ireland that I freely admit had not crossed my mind. It seems the 'Get Ready' site explains that all UK registered cars in EU countries will have to have a GB sticker.

It does not need more than a few moments thought to realise how inflammatory that could be for Republican supporters in Northern Ireland. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement lies in the way differences between the two sides are de-emphasised wherever possible. And then we introduce a bureaucratic rule which requires people to identify as the group they are not - not everyone can afford to change their car to buy one registered elsewhere, or adds another means for the Loyalists to proclaim they are wedded to the mainland.   And if people do buy cars registered elsewhere so they do not need the GB sticker, it becomes an even more potent symbol.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:43 AM

I watched that Newsnight too. Intriguing. If the opposition legislation succeeds, Johnson will undoubtedly want a snap election which he will use to declare that he's the only leader who wants to carry out his Brexit promise, "will of the people" and all that guff. It would be a lie, because he'd no longer be able to carry it out, but he'd have to keep the Brexit party at bay. Whilst I'm far from convinced that he'll get an overall majority, I think it would be too risky for Labour to give him the election. Corbyn would have to frame the refusal in such a way as to say that I'll give you an election once Brexit is resolved. Corbyn might look foolish for refusing an election (or postponing his consent) he's been calling for for a long time, but Johnson will also look foolish when he fails to get Brexit through by 31 October - and he'd have Farage snapping at his heels. Snooker him, Jeremy. Europe has long had the benign effect of bringing Tory leaders crashing down. Long may the tradition continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:47 AM

"all UK registered cars in EU countries will have to have a GB sticker."

This legal requirement has been in place for decades and has never been rescinded.
So your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:58 AM

For information only, not a debating point: if your registration plate has that little EU circle of stars with your country's identifier, you don't need a GB sticker at all. You will after a no-deal brexit. DMcG's point is very valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

Justine Greening has jumped ship. Stand as an independent in Putney, Justine. Let's see a good number of "moderate" Tories doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM

For information
We have lived in Ireland for twenty years and have been visiting here regularly since the beginning of the 1970s
We have never at any time needed either EU or GB plates - it is certainly not a "legal requirement" (though English number plates were once very handy at one time if you wanted to avoid being breathalysed)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

Thanks, both. I did not see the GB sticker issue immediately, as I said. I became aware of it through articles like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

Just when did the people of the UK gain the sovereignty that is being bandied about.

I was always of the impression that sovereignty lay with parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

"We have never at any time needed either EU or GB plates - it is certainly not a "legal requirement" (though English number plates were once very handy at one time if you wanted to avoid being breathalysed")

The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland

Just like the requirement to change a uk license to an Irish one within 100 days of taking up domicile it has not been enforced.

If you checked your facts there would be far less strife on this forum.
Your bombastic lies do nothing to carry a discussion forward.

RAC website
If you're driving in Ireland, your checklist requirements are:

    A valid UK driving licence.
    A GB sticker on the back of your car – unless your car has 'Euro-plates' (number-plates that show a circle of 12 stars on a blue background).
    Your motor insurance certificate.

The black country letters on a circular white back ground (a European custom) became an international requirement in many countries after the U.N.’s Geneva Convention on Road Traffic (1949) and Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (1968). It was agreed upon that a distinguishing sign of the country of registration had to be displayed on the rear of the vehicle. It also stipulated that the sign could either be placed separately from the registration plate or could be incorporated into the vehicle’s number plate and if the international registration letter was incorporated into the licence plate, it also had to appear on the front number plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:50 AM

Our sovereignty arises from the fact that we get to elect our MPs every few years. There's no "sovereignty of the people" arising from advisory referendums. If it's advisory, sovereignty remains in the hands of parliament. If I get cirrhosis and my doctor advises me to give up boozing, no matter how strong and how peppered the advice is with dire threats about refusals to give me a liver transplant, etc, my subsequent decision to nip to Sainsbury's to stock up on 25% off six is entirely legal and entirely mine. I retain sovereignty. There's no sovereignty of the doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:54 AM

Make sure you have your fold-up warning triangle and headlight deflectors. Oh, and you need spare specs in Spain. Enjoy your trip and don't forget to drive on the right. My very first experience of the latter was when I drove off the ferry at Santander, to be immediately confronted with a huge and complex roundabout. The Spanish drivers were very forgiving that time...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

"The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland"
No it hasn't - stop being arrogantly stupid
I live here - you lurk in the shadows and refuse to reveal even your identity, never ming where you will

For christs sake, will somebody stop this wrecker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:56 AM

Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:00 AM

Enjoy your trip and don't forget to drive on the right.

I had the opposite experience. Shortly after passing my test in the UK I went to the States and drove *a lot*. Came home, took my son to a piano lesson, then merrily turned onto the right to see a nice friendly bus approaching me ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:12 AM

"Jim..."
Sorry Steve - a lapse
I'll leave the "politically biased" moderators to sort it out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:12 AM

As the UK wants to form an ever-closer union with Trumpistan, I understand that we'll be changing to driving on the right. But to make it easier, Boris has edicted that the change will be made gradually...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

"The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland"
No it hasn't - stop being arrogantly stupid.

Oh Dear. Give it chapter and verse and still he argues.
Since 2001 many cars have a registration with the EU flag and country of origin inside on the left of the registration plate. Probably post brexit this will no longer be recognized and will require the old style adhesive sticker, and a green card.

These legal requiremens are very easy to check. Shouting does not give veracity.
The requirent has been in place for decades, it s not new. What is new is raising awareness of what I outlined above. SIMPLES

Anyway go and argue with a cabbage and let us get back to the circus that is parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM

Philip Hammond says he is confident of blocking a hard entry, largely dute to Johnson's behaviour over the last few weeks
He accuses "incommers" like Dominic Cummings of infiltrating his his party to try to turn it into "something it is not"
Hope he is right - but either way, the Tory Party has hung itself out to dry; let's hope it hasn't done the same to Britain (teh UK's probably a thing of the past now)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:15 AM

while we await the outcome of the machinations of the partisan speaker, an article to ruminate on sovereignty

When both parties agree to give the decision to the people trying to weasel out by labeling it advisory does not quite cut the mustard

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Tidings of great Joy - the Tories no longer have a majority in Parliament
KALOO KALAY
Never mind - perhaps Johnson can sort things out with a £3bn bung to Tommy Robinson's party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:28 AM

Ha ha. Nice one, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 11:29 AM

From Lee's resignnation speech:
"I have reached the conclusion that it is not possible to serve my constituents' and country’s best interests as a Conservative Member of Parliament," he said in a statement.
"This Conservative government is aggressively pursuing a damaging Brexit in unprincipled ways. It is putting lives and livelihoods at risk unnecessarily and it is wantonly endangering the integrity of the United Kingdom." Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:22 PM

not too worried about tommy robinson's 'party' - he only got 2,000 votes in the european elections. failed even more spectucarly than NF - but of course the NSM-Frog has far more experience of losing elections. mind you - democracy was never of much interest to grubby little fascists or their supporters who hope to succeed by intimidating people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:44 PM

As an added bonus, when Johnson lost his majority, the pound went up on world markets :-)

From The London Economic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:17 PM

Scottish Legal appeal produce documents showing that Johnson had planned to prorogue Parliament weeks before he made his announcement
Murkier and murkier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:06 PM

Today marks the anniversary of the death of the Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell.
He was a lad that knew how to sort out rebels, both in and outside Parliament.

I wonder how familiar 007 Cummings is with his game plans?

Will Boris make a 'shoe in' as a defender of Democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:38 PM

Interesting how the "rebels" label has stuck. The overwhelming majority of parliamentarians who oppose no-deal are members of opposition parties. Their job in parliament is to hold the governing party (or coalition) to account and to challenge on matters they disagree with the administration on. You're not a rebel if you're not a Tory and disagree with the Tories. The only people who might deserve the soubriquet "rebel" are those few Tories (a couple of handfuls? We'll soon find out...) who might defy the whip. Funny how these terms gain currency, and how pejorative words tend to be embraced mainly by the right...

Just musing, y'know...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:52 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Funny how these terms gain currency, and how pejorative words tend to be embraced mainly by the right...

What seems funny to me is that you are guilty of those things you accuse. It's as if 'Brexshitter' isn't pejorative, as if 'Little Englander' isn't pejorative and as if 'Troll' isn't pejorative. I wonder if you'll ever see yourselves as others see you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:31 PM

I do not use the term "brexishitter." If I call someone "troll" it will never be for their political opinions, merely for their insulting and provocative forum behaviour. "Little Englander," if you are one, is a soubriquet you should take pride in. It means a patriot xenophobe. I'm a patriot myself as it happens. But I'm no xenophobe. You call us lefties. I wear that as a badge of pride. But I note that you don't take on the people on your side who call us (just because we disagree with them) remoaners or remainiacs. A bit partial, that attitude, innit, Stanron? If I were you, I'd drop this. Hiding to nothing and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:43 PM

Interesting how the "rebels" label has stuck.......

In normal circumstances you would be correct, but as Parliament voted for the decision to be given back to the people by way of a referendum it is up to parliament to honour it. To say it is advisory means that parliament lied to the people. Mps have a mandate to govern only for so long as the people permit them.
In a democracy sovereignty always belongs to the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:56 PM

”What seems funny to me is that you are guilty of those things you accuse. It's as if 'Brexshitter' isn't pejorative, as if 'Little Englander' isn't pejorative and as if 'Troll' isn't pejorative. I wonder if you'll ever see yourselves as others see you.”

Stan, I’m the guy who has referred to Leavers as ‘Brexshitters’.

I’ve never seen or heard any Remainer tell a Leaver that he is a “Traitor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason”, but I’ve seen it dozens of times said by Leavers to Remainers - it’s been said to me on at least half a dozen occasions, and on social media where my true identity and the town I live in are known.

As long as Leavers feel it’s OK to make death-threats against Remainers, I feel no guilt whatsoever when I call a Leaver a BrexShitter. Brexit is shit, ergo a Brexit supporter is a BrexShitter.

To quote a phrase much-loved by BrexShitters, Get Over It.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:08 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: To quote a phrase much-loved by BrexShitters, Get Over It.

I used the word 'you' in a general sense, a cover term for all UK Lefties on this forum. As a group you seem incapable of conducting civil discussions with people with whom you disagree. As soon as you disagree you become abusive. I asked if you could see yourselvews as others see you. I'm not surprised that the answer is no.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:16 PM

Step one successful!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM

JOHNSON’S ARSE KICKED

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

Bloody sight bigger majority than I expected. Grand. But the comedy continueth. The Tory "rebels", who were supposed to have had the whip removed this very evening, have been given "a second chance." They have to "reconsider overnight" and decide to vote with Bozza tomorrow. Government by confounded idiot or what!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:48 PM

Stanron, my post was a perfectly civil explanation of my reasons for referring to Leavers as ‘Brexshitters’. You either accept it or not, I really don’t care either way.

However, it’s very significant that you continue to rattle on about civility, or lack of it, amongst Remainers, yet you offer no comment whatsoever about your fellow-Brexiteers habit of issuing death-threats against those with whom they disagree. There seems to be something seriously adrift in your perception of morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:49 PM

"As a group you seem incapable of conducting civil discussions with people with whom you disagree. As soon as you disagree you become abusive."

Your blinkers are absolutely staggering. I need hardly point you to the posts of your numero uno right-wing ally on this board. Or, perhaps like me, you don't read his posts. I wouldn't blame you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:53 PM

For any over the pond, dipping in to test the waters, the clip below is a wonderful Aussie summary of Brexit. Clear and concise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hMQF06rGR0

No surprises on the vote in Parliament. A partisan speaker frustrating the clearly stated will of the majority, aided by MPs that voted to give the decision to the people and have since reneged.

The water is wide(in the swamp)...............I can't cross over....

But no doubt Boris and Farage will construct a cunning boat to enable us to reach the other side wherein lies our sovereignty

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:58 PM

Good to see real parliamentary democracy in action. Our elected representatives voting by a huge majority to do what is best for the nation.

Certainly beats a pair of unelected populists trying to subvert legal challenges to their attempted dictatorship.

And good on Jezza saying that an extension must be agreed before even considering going to the polls. I hope he means it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:14 PM

Ironic, innit, that the very silly Fixed Term Parliaments Act brought in by Cameron has nobbled Bozza. Ha bloody ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:22 PM

And we might find proroguing Parliament limits PM Johnson's options.

Given how today and perhaps tomorrow goes, I wonder if Cummings will be masterminding the Tory election when it eventually comes - hopefully, well after the end of October.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 01:40 AM

Perhaps the truth is beginning to dawn that Johnson and Dom & Dommer are nothing more than a pair of chancers, and that bluster and cunning are not the same thing as statesmanship and intelligence?

‘Dom & Dommer’.....hmmm, I like that! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 01:41 AM

It has just struck me that the very weakness Johnson is now experiencing makes the DUP far less relevant, which in its turn opens up a border in the Irish Sea as a possible solution,. NI could stay permanently aligned to EU regulations, which solves the border issues, which solves Parliaments objections to the backstop. The EU is happy, NI voted remain anyway, so at least significant sections of it are happy, the Tory party might be happy - though much of the ERG as saying the backstop was not their only objection - and potentially the PM gets his deal by Oct 31.


Plenty of scope for failing in that, but it is a route we did not have before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:18 AM

I think the point is being missed somewhat here
Last night Johnson expelled 21 elected members of his party for not giving in to his bullying; in doing so he totally removed any claim his party has to being a democratic Party - in that one move he destroyed the Conservative Party, hopefully forever
When Lee resigned he spoke about others who were on the brink of crossing the chamber - the Tory Party is internally in tatters, with a bumbling clown who has deliberately surrounded himself with a team of nodding dog nonentities at its head
The best of the Tories who were unprecedentedly expelled en-masse last night will, hopefully, take their support elsewhere if they have a shred of decency and self-respect - I believe some of them have
This will leave Britain with a disgraced Government trying to force through the most important decision Britain has ever had to take with a minority of 22      

A General election would have to dredge up failed fascists like Farage to be future leaders - now there's a thought
A career beer-swilling racist bigot (matches Johnson's wine-throwing competitions, I suppose) whose creation, Ukip, imploded with it's own mindless racism incompetence and failure to agree with even each other, never mind those who elected them (go count the people who they had to expell for their obvious excessiveness in constantly letting the racist cat out of the bag)
What a ******* mess for any country to be in - hardly a position to take the Brexit 'Great Leap Forward'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:33 AM


The best of the Tories who were unprecedentedly expelled en-masse last night will, hopefully, take their support elsewhere if they have a shred of decency and self-respect - I believe some of them have

The very definition of patriotism is putting the interests of the country before your own. These 21 have voluntarily lost, or at least seriously risked, their future for what they perceive as the good of the country.

I certainly respect them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

As the rebels have destroyed all precedents of Parliamentary behaviour with the willing collusion of the speaker, democracy has been destroyed by an unelected unaccountable rabble. As there is a fiscal element involved in their impending legislation this can only be presented for assent by the Government of the day. Should be interesting to watch Boris put a match to it.

It will be an education to see how the Salisbury convention plays out in the Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:27 AM

"I certainly respect them for that."
Given that Tory politics has never really been more than a career move rather than a calling, so do I
The vituperative hatred shown towards people with a shred of principle represented perfectly here adds to that qualified respect - I'm sure there are little dolls stuck with pins throughout disgraced Torydom this morning

I thought last night's entertainment unsurpassable - nearly missed the start of the new thriller series.
The sight of a pouting and glowering Rees Mogg sprawled across the bench like a Roman Emperor waiting for grapes to be dropped in his mouth by a passing lupa will stay with me every bit as long as the vision of Mad Maggie leaving number ten in tears
Lets hope for more moments like these
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:55 AM

Now for reality rather than hysterics:
could-the-government-advise-the-queen-to-refuse-royal-assent

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:12 AM

"democracy has been destroyed by an unelected unaccountable rabble."

Sorry Lads, can't let this pass.

Every member of parliment who voted "Aye" last night is an ELECTED member of parliament, who is ACCOUNTABLE.

The only unelected and unaccountable individual in all this is Dominic Cummings, who is not even a MEMBER of the conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:19 AM

Do not betray your ignorance. Only the lawfully constituted government is directly accountable to the people, not an unelected rabble.
Where lies their accountability?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:20 AM

Broadly true, Raggy, but of course ministerial appointments are exactly that: appointments. The people involved are elected as MPs but not ministers. So the ministers can fairly be described as 'unelected rabble'. I would not demur, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:24 AM

Incidentally - maybe my maths is haywire (which it is) but wasn't this vote lost by 27 vote; only 21 Tories were thrown out ?
The heap of shit would have been kicked into touch anyway
Maybe all those who voted against it are the "unelected rabble" referred to - given track records, that seems to fit in with the present non-thinking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:28 AM

DMcG I am not aware of any ministers voting "Aye"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

DMcG I am not aware of any ministers voting "Aye"

No, I agree they did not.

If you can bear to read the post again, the phrase used was "democracy has been destroyed by an unelected unaccountable rabble". The only unelected group are the appointed ministers. As I said, if someone suggested their actions are undemocratic, I could be persuaded without much difficulty

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM

My remark, by the way, would have been a quip if had not be so laborious. It was a wilful misinterpretation of the post to question who are those destroying democracy. But since the matter has been raised, we could look at the accountability aspect, where Liz Truss is censured by the committee whose role is to hold her to account, because she claims she has not the time to meet with them, despite finding time to meet various US interest groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM

There were two Labour rebels last night, Kate Hoey (of course - mad as a box o' frogs) and "professional northerner" John Mann, the git who dishonestly orchestrated Ken Livungstone's downfall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:46 AM

A bit of light humour while we wait for the events of the day …

Geordie the Professional

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:51 AM

Me dad always called Parky a professional northerner, but John Mann fits the bill perfectly.

Steve (northerner)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 06:51 AM

For more light humour, have a look at Andrew Sparrow's live blog on the Guardian website. Scroll right down to see some amusing takes on Rees-Mogg's slouch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 07:41 AM

Even more amusing. Has Bennie boy been too clever for his own boots?

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-cons

Do I detect acres of long grass and a proposed bill resembling a football?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

Boris Johnson CAN suspend Parliament next week, finds Scotland's highest court as judge rejects Remainers' bid to stop prorogation

No Surprises there! Score 1 for democracy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:05 AM

"A foul-mouthed oaf who should be frogmarched out of Downing Street". Roger Gale, Tory MP, not a rebel, on Dominic Cummings.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

Boris Johnson apparently does not have the two third majority to dissolve Parliament, the opposition are refusing to support him and demanding that he asks for an extension till January - at present, that is the predicted outcome so suspending Parliament doesn't mean squat
Hopefully, game set and match if democracy has its way
Some of those expelled by Johnson to be replaced by thugs like Cummings have held the highest offices in the country
A good day for democracy (if you lived in Nazi Germany)
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 08:32 AM

It is the PM' prerogative to prorogue parliament. No election simply prorogue over the line for the Queen's speech. The rebels can do diddly squat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 09:02 AM

" Roger Gale, Tory MP"
Elected Tory MP - not a street-corner thug dragged in to suppress democracy (nor a frog-faced, beer swilling racist, long-rejected wannabe in whose hands some fellow right-wing racists are apparently prepared to place Britain's future)   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 09:15 AM

The Scottish Court has ruled that the Government can prorogue. Obviously those bringing the case would have rather they had won, but in many ways it does not matter. Whoever won the other side would have lodged an appeal, as has happened. And no doubt there will be an appeal against that. This is a long game.

The reports when the case was brought said they expected to be defeated at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 10:34 AM

Quoting from a live feed:

n the Commons John Bercow, the Speaker, is taking points of order ahead of the debate on the Benn bill.
Sir Bill Cash, the Tory Brexiter, asked if the bill required Queen’s consent. Cash said he was inspired to ask the question partly by this blog by Robert Craig, a public law lecturer, who suggested Queen’s consent would be required. He argued that this would be a problem.
But Bercow told Cash he had considered this matter and decided Queen’s consent was not required.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 10:40 AM

… And I am off for a longish break in Ireland. Taxi due in 5 minutes. I am not sure how well I will keep up with events. The whole UK could be different by the time I get back, at this rate!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 10:59 AM

Just a little light diversion, knowing some peoples views on Rees Mogg

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 12:16 PM

Nice one Nigel! Or even this! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 12:24 PM

Step two successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 12:55 PM

And Caroline Spelman has joined the Tory naysayers - but isn't losing the whip! Perhaps because she's been serially incredibly dishonest, and serially dishonest people are exactly what Bozza wants around him!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 01:10 PM

Another defeat for Superclown
Tory MP, Philip Hammond says Johnson is lying that there are negotiations taking place with Europe over The Backstop - he has been assured by European members that there are no such negotiations taking place - politicians lying - surely not!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:30 PM

Something else the Brexit Liars didn’t put on the side of their bloody red bus...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 02:36 PM

The plot thickens.
Bercow told Cash he had considered this matter and decided Queen’s consent was not required.
Perhaps the poison dwarf will have a day in court to have his decision tested and show whether he followed the advice of his officers this time around.

When a speaker goes rogue, democracy is left in tatters.

We have a minority opposing the will of the majority.
Parliament in opposition to the people

This could all end up very badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:05 PM

It sounds as if the very individulal who criticised bringing the Queen into these arguments is now using her as a battering ram to break out of Europe
Hope she's got lots of Anadin in stock IN CASE THEY RUN OUT BECAUSE OF BREXIT
What a friggin' joker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:29 PM

Step three suçcessful

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:47 PM

Y’know, it’s almost as though he’s telling lies, isn’t it?

But, but, but...surely not - he’s our Prime Minister!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 03:49 PM

Two statements on camera by British business representatives have proved that Boris Johnson has been lying to his party and to the people of Britain
There are no ongiong discussions about renegotiating Europe's stance on Brexit, the backstop or anything else - he has persistently lied when he claims that all these "shenanigans" are interfering ith negotiations - there are no ****** negotiations
Boris Johnson is not only a serial moron - he's a serial liar
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM

Step four successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:13 AM

Interesting that our Serial-Liar told Parliament last night that negotiations with the EU were at a critical stage, whereas BBC News this morning reported that Michel Barnier last night told a news conference that negotiations were ‘paralysed’.

I know who I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:42 AM

I think they were at a critical stage, BWM. As in critical condition and about to shuffle off this mortal coil.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:47 AM

"that negotiations with the EU were at a critical stage,"
This has been proved to have been an outright lie - a total invention
Two representatives of the business community approached their elected members of the EU to find out what these "negotiations" were and were tol they did not exist - either through discussion nor correspondence - they are figments of Johnson's fevered imagination
An interviewer asked a DUP Member of Parliament to explain them and he refused to respond - his silence confirmed they are a lie
There are no 'negotiations and have been none for many months
If there was any justice in the world this would earn Johnson, Rees Mogg and Gove a quick visit to The Guildhall to have their heads removed for such a scurrilous and treasonable lie.
These clowns should be tried by a jury made up the the principled people they have driven out of their party - they are political scum of the lowest order
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:12 AM

Politics has always relied on stealth and deception. Look at magic gramps and his insistence on an election. He is handed it on a plate and runs away.
Do you really think you should be privy to all their planning? How very arrogant.
The stage is being set for the grand finale. You will be surprised!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM

To be fair Backwoodsman if any of us where taken to hospital paralysed the doctors may well refer to our condition as critical.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM

The rabid right will always insist that the electorate really has no say in what is done on their behalf - "Your job is just to elct us and leave us to it - it would only confuse you if wwe had to explain what we are doing"
I should have said that first time around, but there was no need - someone has just given us a perfect example of what I mean - it is "arrogant" to demand to know how are lives are being controlled from people who believe they shouldn't be challenged
A quick reminder that Gove described laws being passed by elected representatives as "a pig in a poke" only to be acted on if the great and the good see fit
What chance to the rest of us have with people like that driving this Magicacal Mystery Tour bus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

Vote to be held on general election on Monday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 11:39 AM

For those with an inability to understand the English language, what I said was:
Politics has always relied on stealth and deception.Do you really think you should be privy to all their planning? How very arrogant.
That hardly equates to the drivelling nonsense below:
The rabid right will always insist that the electorate really has no say in what is done on their behalf - "Your job is just to elct us and leave us to it - it would only confuse you if wwe had to explain what we are doing"
Have you been to creative writing classes?

NB: “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”

? Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:41 PM

I repeat
"The rabid right will always insist that the electorate really has no say in what is done on their behalf - "Your job is just to elct us and leave us to it - it would only confuse you if wwe had to explain what we are doing""
You have just confirmed that those who rule us and the twats who support them consider themselves at war with those they are elected to Govern
We knew that anyway - Thatcher put it perfectly when she described us as "the enemy within"
Stop telling us what we know

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:50 PM

A shame you cannot understand simple English. I have some very old copies of Janet and John Books. Shall I send them to you? When you have mastered them you may be allowed to join adult conversation. You know the old adage?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 03:22 PM

one of the more depressing aspects of this situation is the increasing way that the government and their supporters use the language of war, something that is rarely mentioned is the fact that a good reason for the close integration of european states is to promote peace and co-operation between nations. how our partners must despair of the attitude of our government and their insistence on branding their supposed opponents as traitors, collaborateurs etc.....do we have no understanding of the significance of this sort of language on the continent?

of course we must compromise - that is the way that disputes are always settled because the alternative is too awful and mutually destructive.

don't worry, we see you - you arse-lickers, forelock-tuggers and grubby little fascists. you will never have anything positive to contribute but please try to stop insulting our friends, our fallen veterans and our children. first , do no harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 05:41 PM

Might I suggest that we preserve a civil discussion here and utterly ignore/blank/talk past every single post of Iains'. Even those ones where he pretends that he's being "reasonable." That's part of his game, and he always reverts to type very quickly, and you know it. We've done so well in recent weeks and we can see the effect it's having on this inveterate seeker-of-attention. He's getting more and more silly, more infantile, more immature, more off-topic and more shrill, almost hysterical at times by now, the more we sideline him. A handful only of us read his posts. I for one have stopped reading them altogether. If you see his post and automatically bypass it, it can't wind you up. I appeal to all decent people to pretend that he simply isn't here. He has nothing useful to say, ever. Cut him dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 05:45 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:04 PM

Better still, don't even mention him in public!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:05 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:19 PM

I absolutely hated myself for having to mention him just then, but Raggytash and Jim won't bloody well cut it out!

Sorry lads, but that's how I feel. My jaw drops every time Raggy and Jim respond. Might as well speak plainly here. Just remember that the whole world and his dog here on Mudcat are so pissed off with all this that the only people who read his posts are a handful of us and the odd mod. Just pretend that he's not here. Once he reads this, he will try all the harder to be provocative and stupid. Here's the best policy: Don't. Read. His. Bloody. Posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 06:20 PM

It's a free country, of course... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 02:48 AM

Good morning from Dublin before I set off for the next bit of this visit.

Were I Johnson, I would resign and recommend to the Queen that Corbyn tries to form a Government. That puts Corbyn in a really tricky spot. If he tries to govern as Labour, he will face a no confidence vote of his own which will force an election, perhaps even on Johnson's timescale. If he is smart enough to govern as head of a GNU, they can order a referendum... but then what? Hang around for months until it is completed? Or call an election, which if Boris wins he can use to cancel the referendum. And even if the GNU managed to stay together to issue a LEGALLY binding referendum before an election, if the Tories won the election I suspect he could have a vote to dismiss the referendum because he did not agree with the phrasing. At which point the EU, having already given an extension for the election and referendum and seen the UK reject it would not permit any more extensions and Johnson finally gets his no deal around December.

Kipling's advice is something we should bear in mind after this week "If you can meet with triumph and disaster/And treat those two imposters just the same.' The disastrous performance of Johnson this week can be spun as Parliament blocking the people, and no doubt will, even though totally false.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 03:06 AM

"but Raggytash and Jim won't bloody well cut it out!"
Steve - this feller will not go away and we have been told by a mod that they are not going going to do anything about his appalling behaviour, so we are stuck with his using this forum as a propaganda platform
If he says something revealing, as he just has by comparing the Government's refusing to pass on facts top the electorate to that of an ancient war tactician - a Government at war with its own people - I am happy to underline that truism - as far as I am concerned, it was far too good to let pass.
Iain's obliged me by adding to the value of his own statement with a mouthful of his personal abuse - a far better result than just leting him pour out his meaningless hatred of decent people and politics, as far as I am concerned
I will use every opportunity such as that when I feel it to be worthwhile

I sat through as much of Question Time as I could take last night and Iain's description of a Government at war with the British and his own party came over with blinding clarity - I am grateful to Iains and to the Brecxiteer panelists for giving such a clear picture of what's happening
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 04:45 AM

”The disastrous performance of Johnson this week can be spun as Parliament blocking the people, and no doubt will, even though totally false.”

I think we can be certain that The Dom & Dumber Show has a way to run yet - wealthy people’s tax-avoidance schemes are depending on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

Fine. Then we're stuck with him forever. :-(

The new legislation allows Johnson to get brexit if he can get a deal that the Commons approves. I can't see that happening but we live in strange times. But he can also get us out with no-deal if the Commons approves. I'd say that is currently impossible. But suppose he wins an October 15 election with a clear majority. In that scenario there would be a greatly increased risk of his getting Parliament to agree to no-deal. The new legislation would have been circumvented. In the campaign for that election he would make that possibility crystal clear and he would thereby mop up Brexit Party votes (they might even collude with him). That is a massive risk to this country's interests.

But if Labour refuses an October election* there are risks in that too. Apart from all the sloganising about cowardice and undermining the will of the people, etc, it would give Johnson longer to get a deal, which, if successful, would lumber the country with him for another five years. I think the risk of that is quite small but it isn't an impossibility. If he can't get a deal he would have to grovel for an extension, a total humiliation. If he sees that coming, even by now, he could resign as a tactical move. That precipitates us into a whole new ball game. It would look bad for him right now if he did that, but it would rapidly become water under the bridge. We are still in danger.

*Right in the middle of typing this I got an alert that Labour will not vote on Monday. I think that's the wisest decision. Another wise decision for the next couple of months would be for the two Labour factions, the SNP, the LibDems and the Greens to temporarily abandon their differences and present a united front in the interests of the nation. The only person who could beat Johnson in a general election is Jeremy Corbyn. That has to be the sentiment. Once Johnson is out (very likely in a hung parliament) then the squabbling can resume. We simply have to get this charlatan out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 05:09 AM

That first line was to Jim (and maybe Rain Dog...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:03 AM

I've come to love the Irish skill at one-line humour
A letter writer to this morning's Irish Times writes:
"Sir.
Is Jo Johnson the first politician ever to have left politics to spend less time with his family"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:18 AM

Perfect that one, Jim! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:25 AM

A touch of plagiarism there Jim, I read that in the Guardian yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM

Rain Dog, that has been pointed out over and over again. The referendum did have a small majority win but it is far from the "will of the people" lie that is being perpetrated. In fact crashing out of the EU has been proven to be against the will of most people so Jim's statement about BoJo the clown and his circus being at war with the people is perfectly valid. However, if you had not already realised, there is no point in discussing this with some people. They want their own way and the rest of the people can go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:38 AM

Here’s damn good reason for Labour, the SNP, the Lib-Dems, and the Greens to stick together to fight Dom & Dumber’s election scam. Can there have ever been, even by Tory standards, a more disgusting, deceitful bunch of snakes in government?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:43 AM

"A touch of plagiarism there Jim, I read that in the Guardian yesterday."
Irish - Guardian reader; great minds thinking alike, I would have thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:45 AM

Dave the Gnome posted "In fact crashing out of the EU has been proven to be against the will of most people so Jim's statement about BoJo the clown and his circus being at war with the people is perfectly valid."

I would not be so sure about that Dave. From my own personal experience I have not spoken to any leavers who have changed their minds.

I have to say that I am a bit fed up with all of the "will of the people" comments made by people from all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:54 AM

The best way to test the ‘Will of the People’ question would be to have a second Referendum which, unlike the first, is set up properly with the right questions - i.e. ‘Leave but only with a deal’, ‘Leave with no deal’, or ‘Remain’.

But, of course, that’s not what Dom & Dumber want, because there’s a strong chance they would lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 07:18 AM

In passing
Any comfort anybody wished to take from the failure to get the proroguing of parliament made illegal needs to be taken alongside the fact that any outcome will be rendered totally immaterial as, by the time the appeal will be heard, any outcome will have been renedred totally irrelevant - the attempts to prevent parliament to outlaw a Hard Brexit will have been decided - which was the sole purpose of the exercise
The act of attempting to silence Parliament, coupled with the expelling of 21 long standing and dedicated members of the Tory Party probably did more to bring about Johnson's string of historically humiliating defeats than did any other aspect of this sorry saga, alongside which it has all but destroyed the Conservative Party forever as a seriously regarded and responsible political entity - talk about shooting yourself in both feet.
Two for the price of one as far as I'm concerned - long may we be awarded such "red faces"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 08:08 AM

Opposition groups have met and have come to an agreement that they will oppose an election until a no-deal Brexit is guaranteed - Borish is well and truly shafted
He says that he will not resign but will push on to guarantee that Britain leaves at the end of October - he would say that, wouldn't he !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 09:45 AM

To me the relevant question is how many of those who voted leave thought they were voting for a no-deal Brexit and was anyone aware at the time what it would entail. With all the controversy, and hopefully a better informed electorate, another referendum seems like the fairest way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 09:52 AM

'the will of the people' 'the majority....' 'we voted to leave...' 'just get us out' are monotonous and valid enough in a way. however, when did this become a call for us to leave as soon as possible with the hardest possible brexit? leavers seem in complete denial about the fact that there are many more ways than one to leave. do you really want to go for the most dangerous one ? the most expensive one? do you really want to sour the atmosphere so that all the trade negotiations yet to come will be dragged out and uneccessarily combative?

where is our so-called common sense, compromise and diplomatic intelligence?

you won't be better off you know.....though bannon, cummings, putin and the 1% will be happy. trump and johnson , of course, will just be confused and incoherent as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 09:58 AM

In response to gillymor's post - I think that the vast majority of those who wanted to leave just wanted to leave. The details of the leaving did not bother them too much.

As for being better informed well that is not so straightforward is it? Ideally we would have to know the terms of our leaving and I cannot see that happening anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:09 AM

The mythical will is the only will that counts. We won,you lost. Live with it!

Out of a 46 million electorate only 33.5 million could be bothered to vote. More than half of that number voted out.

No amount of hogwash mathermagic can alter the fact that leave won, and in a democracy that means leave.

If we do not leave, parliament no longer has legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:20 AM

You are pissing in the wind here RD
The difference between a decision made by using hate, prejudice, no planning for the future and deliberately withholding information as opposed to real democracy will nebver be understood in a million years by people like this
It's worth repeating that Nazi Germany came into being via an elected majority - there are at least six million reasons why that particular exercise in 'democracy' should never be repeated
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:30 AM

Jim Carroll posted "The difference between a decision made by using hate, prejudice, no planning for the future and deliberately withholding information"

I get that you did not like the result but if you are saying that information was withheld before the referendum, I cannot agree with that.

The fact is that the so called debate before the vote was pretty useless all around. Someone on the radio the other week said that whenever he heard one side of the so called debate, it made him want to vote for the other.

As you are no doubt aware, there has always been a sizeable number of people who were opposed to us joining and then staying in. That has not really changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:46 AM

It is pleasing to see the opposition doing what an opposition should do and preventing a government hell bent on doing the country a huge disservice. One that would have dire consequences for the coming years and especially the youth who are as yet not allowed a vote.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/opposition-parties-agree-block-snap-election-until-brexit-delay-secured

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 10:48 AM

Picked up from a FB thread yesterday...

”Listening to Brexiteers now is horribly like listening to my late mother when she was almost convinced she'd been scammed by a cowboy roofer but couldn't bring herself to admit it. She said 'I may have been overcharged but it's my money. I can do what I like with my money. Anyway, I like the result. I don't care.' She said 'I'm doing it for you and the children because it will increase the value of the house when I die'. She didn't admit to herself that she'd been scammed until it was too late to cancel the cheque. Now I'm hearing 'We voted to leave, just get on with it'. ' I don't care about the arguments, I just want us to leave and move on. We've chosen and that's that. No ifs or buts.' The scammers will pick up their money and run unless the scam victims recognise in time that they have been tricked. There's no shame in admitting that you've been conned by highly-skilled experts.”

Sounds pretty much on the button to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

"I get that you did not like the result but if you are saying that information was withheld before the referendum, I cannot agree with that."
It has become clear that no information was provided on what might happen before the referendum took place, but from the beginning the business community was warning that leaving Europe would destabilise the economy and would take up to twenty years to put right
While that information appeared in the specialist press, it was never made clear in the popular media and was certainly never discussed publicly
A prediction as important as this should heve been put clearly to the people from day one - it's accuracy became apparent when compainies immediately began to move out of Britain - Westland was among the first - it changed its name and suddenly became a European company'
Even leading Brexiteers like Rees Mogg and Dyson, put their money elsewhere - the latter had financed Brexit to the tune of £5 million

Brexit was slammed all round for having no plan beyond 'leaving' and 'controlling immigration' - that was a major cause for concern, even in the Tory Press - Britain decided to leave Europe the way a sulky teenager would leave home after a row with the parents

It transpires that (according to Gove) the 'Yaellowhammer Report was put together in the ealy days and the findings were so horrifying that they were locked away and only leaked a fw weeks ago - the Government were more concerned at them being made public that they were at the findings themselves.

This stupidly self-damaging decision was won largely on Farage's obscenely racist 'Foreign Hordes' poster and the historical racism towards Europeans - proven beyong any douby by a spike of 42% in racist incidents - even o the morning after the referendum, 'foreign-looking' people were being stopped in the street and asked when they were going back to where they came from.

The oly way to extract the British people would have been to ask them to confirm their decision now the likely outcome had become clearer - a bit late for that now - Britain's reputation internationally is shot forever and its future out of Europe lies solely on being able to crawl into the pocket of the moronic degenerate in The White House
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

The rebel bill may have passed in the Commons and Lords, However:
It has stopped no deal therefore an extension is almost certain. That means more payment must be made to the EU.
Only ministers can propose a bill with a fiscal component. I suspect Royal assent will not be forthcoming. As a result the bill is stranded and of no consequence.

Tickety tock!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 12:14 PM

Rain Dog:

"Ideally we would have to know the terms of our leaving and I cannot see that happening anytime soon."

I know politicians prefer an ignorant and malleable electorate but why not hold out for a clear cut explanation of the exit terms so the public can make an informed decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 12:30 PM

thanks, mod.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 01:08 PM

House of Lords have blocked a no deal Brexit
Wonder if Johnson will try to pension them all off
Hasn't it been a fabulous week ?
Johnson say's he's not resigning - a clear indication that it's on the cards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 02:05 PM

House of Lords have blocked a no deal Brexit

Not yet! Only ministers of the crown can propose legislation with a fiscal component.
Royal assent as opposed to Royal consent, is required for any bill to become law.
As far as I am aware this has not yet been signed into law and the government can kick it's heels for up to a month before submitting it for her Majesty's approval ( Assuming they may want to, of course. This also assumes the bill is legal, The wording is absolutely crucial)

The great game continues!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 02:36 PM

Step five successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 03:07 PM

At the risk of being accused, yet again, of nit-picking:

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 05:41 PM

Might I suggest that we preserve a civil discussion here and utterly ignore/blank/talk past every single post of Iains'. Even those ones where he pretends that he's being "reasonable." That's part of his game, and he always reverts to type very quickly, and you know it. We've done so well in recent weeks and we can see the effect it's having on this inveterate seeker-of-attention. He's getting more and more silly, more infantile, more immature, more off-topic and more shrill, almost hysterical at times by now, the more we sideline him. A handful only of us read his posts. I for one have stopped reading them altogether.

Can anyone on the leave side see the logical fallacy above?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 03:13 PM

As far as I am aware the last time Royal ascent was refused was in 1707. Three hundred and twelve years ago.

Just saying ..........

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 03:14 PM

"Step five successful."
Seconded on that one
Personally I'd love to see the Government attempt to "kick its heels' in the present atmosphere
That should dive at least another couple of dozen believers i Parliamentary democracy out of the Party if it doesn't elicit a handful of writs against any fascist bastard who would attempt such a thing after already having his undemocratic arse kicked
From the present appearance of Johnson, I'd say he was looking for a gas oven to put his head into
I don't think there's been such a severe case of shell-shock since the Armistice
I pity his partner when he goes home at night, but maybe she has a solution for getting wine stains out of the carpet
Iim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 03:44 PM

We could always trade assent for an election. But chlorinated corbyn is frit. The first time in history the opposition party has turned down a chance to get elected. What a sorry shower.
Quite happy to thwart the will of the majority but scared to attempt to legitimise their hijacking of Parliament.
Even the EU is getting tired of magic grandad and trying to stay abreast of his ever changing stance on Brexit.

Guido sums it up very aptly:

https://order-order.com/2019/09/06/cchq-sends-lobby-jeremys-frightened-chicken/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 04:07 PM

It is quite pathetic when Brexiteers can only respond with sound bites from a right wing blogger with a criminal past.

Surely ONE of them could come up with something better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 04:36 PM

"Surely ONE of them could come up with something better."
I think they used to pass the shared brain around until one of them accidntally dropped it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 04:41 PM

At the end of last week on Newnight four people were asked to predict the events of this week in terms of how votes would go. No one says prediction is easy, of course, but one was Tom Harwood from Guido Fawkes - he seems to be on BBC quite a lot - and his prediction was dramatically wrong. Pretty much he said Johnson would win everything this week and would be dominating the house at this point. There may, perhaps, have been too much confidence and too little analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:35 PM

You might have thought that Bozza's week couldn't get worse. But Sky News have revealed this hand-written Bozza note from mid-August, at the time he was lying to us about his assurance that Parliament wouldn't be prorogued:

"The whole September session is a rigmarole introduced by girly swot Cameron to show the public that MPs were earning their crust."

Hands up those who think he's just a big girl's blouse... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:42 PM

No, Nigel, I really have stopped reading them. Doesn't mean I can't do a quick scan to spot the rabid and hysterical insults. I've always been able to do that. A skill worth acquiring, I suggest. Now instead of your nitpicking, which we naturally all enjoy (at your expense, though you never see it), why don't you come clean and tell us what you think of his posts?

Careful now, Nige...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:43 AM

It is a crying shame that the only Brexiteer who strikes me of having a shred of honesty about what he believes will only post in defence of the worst of his sorry little bunch
My Welsh optician commented a few weeks ago that, whenever he asked fellow ex-pats why they supported leaving (if they did) - "why", they refused to discuss their reasons
The deafening absence of logical argument from Brexiteers here bears that out - an indication that they don't know why they wish to leave or they are ashamed to tell us why.
That seems to be a summing up of the whole, sorry business
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 04:19 AM

The increasingly hysterical left.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 05:41 PM
this inveterate seeker-of-attention. He's getting more and more silly, more infantile, more immature, more off-topic and more shrill, almost hysterical at times by now,

I look forward to seeing examples, are you taking a lead from sparky, or having a Prosecco moment?
It seems you deliberately, or are unable, to understand plain English. Is this in order to have a platform to justify continuous insults?

The reality is that I post facts and statistics with accompanying links that you are not able to refute.
You adopt the identical stance with Mr Guido Fawkes. Have any of you managed to refute any facts he posts?

You may think yourself clever having many posts of mine deleted but reality is not changed as a result.
For example yesterday I posted that Gina Millars/Major's court case was rejected. Manipulation by the darkside made it vanish.
https://order-order.com/2019/09/06/gina-miller-john-major-lose-prorogation-case/ You all seem unable to think beyond the continuous false narrative fed to you by the Guardian. You even act as though your losing side won the referendum.
Is that a shining example of snowflake entitlement?

With the current turmoil in parliament deleting the above would seem bizarre. Rabid remainers are resorting to the courts to try to force parliament to acquiesce to their minority views.

17.4 million people have spoken, they are the majority.(irrefutable fact!)


In order to impose your minority views on the majority you seem quite oblivious to the fact that you destroy democracy. Parliament voted to give the decision to the people. Now they have reneged. Do you seriously think the majority will accept this?
Why else is corbyn scared to face the people? They will have their say
and the outcome may well be untidy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 04:31 AM

Johnson has been condemned by the Chief of Police for using the Police force to make deliver a political message
He says they were told he would be talking about law and order - instead, he used his visit to promote his personal take on Brexit
I think he might have been concerned that one of his constables nearly died of boredom during Johnsons meandering speech
It's not the first time Tories have used the police (or the army) to force through an unpopular agenda, and I doubt if it will be the last
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 05:14 AM

Couple of interesting snippets in this mornings Times I missed on last night's news
The expelled Tory rebels have struck a deal with Brexit leaders to secure a three month extension on Brexit
Donald Trump is demanding that Britain and its NATO partners pay a share of building his Mexican wall
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 05:51 AM

Should b EU leaders of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 06:32 AM

It's not the first time Tories have used the police (or the army) to force through an unpopular agenda

An agenda to leave the EU, voted for by a majority?

In reality a popular agenda by majority decision.

A stunning example of your mental agility, or perhaps total misunderstanding of the voting statistics.

The fact that the left has difficulty accepting the majority decision does not alter either it's legality or popularity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 06:41 AM

"The prime minister reportedly wrote to Tory members on Friday evening pledging to break the law that will require him to seek an extension of article 50. “They just passed a law that would force me to beg Brussels for an extension to the Brexit deadline. This is something I will never do.” (From a Guardian report today)

Isn't it great that the leader of this country, who only yesterday was supporting a police recruitment drive, says he is going to break the law.

Isn't it great that the leader of this country supports law and order so much.

Wouldn't it be fantastic to see him sent down for breaking the law, makes me ALMOST wish he would!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

“They just passed a law that would force me to beg Brussels for an extension to the Brexit deadline. This is something I will never do.” (From a Guardian report today)

As usual the Guardian is incorrect.

Parliament and the Lords may have created a bill. It does not become law until it receives Royal Assent. This final part of creating UK law is sometime in the future(possibly further than you think)

You are spreading false news. This is very remiss of you. You should apologise for dreadfully misleading us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 08:02 AM

What price government plans for a no-deal Brexit I wonder. Farmers are already experiencing problems.

Problems already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 08:19 AM

Devious tricks and counter measures

https://www.theworldlawgroup.com/news/england-can-parliament-prevent-a-no-deal-brexit
I wonder who wins this one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 08:29 AM

Tory rebels are preparing to take Johnson to court if he doesn not apply for an extension to Brexit on October 9th - I'm sure our populist ranter knows they are wasting their time

Crowds are beginning to gather in London and other places throughout Britain to protest at Johnson's fascist behaviour - one part of the people's voice that will be totally ignored by the goose-steppers
I wonder if the police will turn up to monitor the march after the way Fuhrer Johnson has used them as political chess-pieces ?

DETAILED STUDY of EFFECTof BREXIT on FOOD and AGRICULTURE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM

Tory rebels are preparing to take Johnson to court if he doesn not apply for an extension to Brexit on October 9th - I'm sure our populist ranter knows they are wasting their time

VERY GLAD TO SEE YOU USE THE TERM REBELS

Well we have a couple of arguments to be tested:
1)Did the recent bill require Queen's consent
2)Can rebels force the government of the day to submit for Queen's Assent a bill they do not support.

As the rebels like to resort to the courts, perhaps it is time for Boris and the quiet brexiteer majority to use the same tactics.

I suspect the bill was allowed it's untrammelled passage because it contains a fatal flaw that filibustering might have exposed.
There was a reason for rushing the bill through.

No doubt all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

One view below

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/09/02/proponents-of-the-new-bill-to-stop-no-deal-face-a-significant-dilemma-over-queens-cons

They say the speaker cannot be challenged but no doubt Erskine May has been fully scrutinised and government lawyers are testing the legality of the speakers pronouncements.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

The claim that Brexit was decided on democratic is a lie that needs to be nipped in the bud
Democracy demands that voting takes place on the basis of full and accurate information - a basic tenet of the system
From day one the voters were lied to and essential information held from them
Even if this had taken place, it does not mean that decisions arrived at were 'democratic' - patently not so in the case of Brexit
The driving force behind Brexit was racism and xenophobia, the result of which has led to a 42% rise in recist incidents
Far from expanding the rights of the British people, the Brexit vote has undermined and endangered and even removed the rights of several million non indigenous British citizens
his has been compounded by the failure of the state to protect the rights and even lives of these citizens
FACTS

Maybe iyt's time for somebody to examine the legality of the racist campaing in the light of the subsequent hate-incidents it has caused so far
Just a thought
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 11:46 AM

That Jim, is merely your view. I doubt many share it. The referendum was a yes, no answer - do we stay, or do we go.

You continue to introduce false arguments to try to give legitimacy to your narrative but unfortunately 17.4 million totally disagreed with you.

It will be interesting to see who the final winners are! The longer this farce continues, the worse the outcome will be.
British politics will never be the same again. The majority will be most unhappy if they continue to be thwarted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 01:19 PM

Johnson has been warned by former head prosecutor, Lord Macdonald, that he could face prosecution, and evenn jail, if he refuses to obey the House of Lord's instruction to delay Brexit - but i'm sure we have someone here who knows Lord Macdonald hasn't got a clue what he's talking about - no prizes -

"That Jim, is merely your view."
Common sense, common humanity and basic political philosophy
You would not be familiar with any of these, of course, as you spend so much time proving
I'm afraid as you constantly prove you can't tell the difference between democracy and lynch-mob populism
Over and out - ha my week's fun humiliating you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 01:24 PM

I have lost count of the number of times I have said this. 17 million voted to leave. 16 million voted to stay. 13 million did not say one way or another. Whatever happens a lot of people are going to be pissed off. A compromise is the only way to satisfy most people. No deal is not a compromise. Trampling over the views of half the electorate, whichever way they voted, should not be an option.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 01:45 PM

The shape of things to come...?? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 01:52 PM

We can but hope :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

Interesting snippet from the Telegraph.(4 April 2019 • 2:21pm)
"Today there’s a new one for Brexit obsessives to consider: what if disgraced Labour MP Fiona Onasanya had served three months in prison for perverting the course of justice, instead of being released after four weeks? The answer is that Britain would, more than likely, be heading towards a no-deal Brexit next week."

Now wots all that about majorities?

Jim I was told by Joe to give links if I was offering facts. Does the same stipulation not apply to you? I look forward to seeing links that support your 'observations', or alternatively a clarification you were merely offering your opinions.

Trampling over the views of half the electorate, whichever way they voted, should not be an option.
Pray tell, what on earth are remainiacs doing if not exactly that?
They are overturning the majority vote as well. All caused by releasing a criminal from jail early.

Sovereignty: a viewpoint
https://www.thearticle.com/who-is-sovereign-people-or-parliament#

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:37 PM

"We can but hope :-)"
Pity he cant take one of ours with him
He's even comparing himself with the rest of us now - talk about delusions of grandeur
I'VE GOT TIRED PUTTINg THESE ARTICLES UP - HE CAN'T EVEN READ
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 03:19 PM

IF you cannot be bothered to give links their original titles I do not bother to read them.

---

Cheap shot, Iains. If you actually know how to use a computer, hover your mouse over the link and it will show you the details.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 07:42 PM

Right.

I don't know how many more times I'll have the energy to say this. But here goes. If you respond in any way at all to Iains, he will keep winding you up. I'm really sorry to say this, Jim, but you are the prime mover here when it comes to keeping him going and I for one haven't a bloody clue why you feel the need to keep on doing it. He is not poisoning the world. He is poisoning the tiny group of us who can be arsed to read his posts (and I'm not even one of them any more - I go into auto-skip as soon as I see his name). He doesn't matter. I learn a lot by reading the measured views of the reasonable contributors here. But you, Jim, above all others (though you're not alone), are guilty of keeping this bastard going. When we don't respond he acts like an hysterical kid, desperately seeking attention by posting more and more stupid and irrelevant nonsense to try to wind us up. Jim, he's a bloody idiot who has nothing to say, nothing to contribute. His modus operandi is to wind you up. I appeal to you to try once and for all to try to see it. Honestly, Jim, we can make him go away, even if the mods won't. Ignore him, let him rant on, and eventually he'll disappear up his own unwashed hysterical arsehole. Could I be more direct? Try me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 07:54 PM

And now I see that the detestable John Mann has joined the Tories. Detestable, disreputable and downright bloody thick. Good riddance!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:29 AM

Rats joining a sinking ship! What next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:45 AM

Some of the links provided in this threads are to articles suggesting that the agriculture industry will be the first to suffer from a hard Brexit. Meanwhile here in the U S farmers were the first on either side to be casualties in the ill-conceived tariff war that Trump started with China. So are farmers the canaries in the coalmines when it comes to economic catastrophe. My father grew up the son of a lease farmer in the 20's and 30's. He said his community was suffering for quite a while before the Great Depression began in 1929.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 03:05 AM

Steve
I am still happy to allow Iains to humiliate himself as he is doing
If somebody doesn't he will continue to pollute these threads with his propaganda unhindered
Even Joe, who up to now has defended his presence, has gone as far as to point out the stupidity of his postings - the other Mods have been referring to him as a troll for a while now - progress enough for now).
To be honest, I am grateful for the opportunity to put up the facts and figures I have as often as I am able - they can't be said enough
Christ knows, the one thing this subject has lacked from day one is an intelligent and articulate argument defending Brexit - Stanron and Nigel avoid involvement (if I was in their position wouldn't want my name associated with behaviour such as Iains's)
I don't enter into long arguments with him - I made that mistake with someone else, but an occasional dose of putting him where he belongs woks like a dose of Philosan for me.
With the greatest respect to the rest of you, as much as I enjoy being in the company of those I respect and agree with, I need to be able to bounce my ideas and opinions of people who question them - I think we all do otherwise we become complacent
Enough of this before we close the thread, which I have no doubt is why Iaians behaves as he does
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM

I need to be able to bounce my ideas and opinions of people who question them

Agreed. But questioning your ideas is not just quoting right wing sites and abusing you. If you really want to debate, discuss your ideas with someone who does question them and puts some thought into it. Don't respond to someone who just parrots propaganda. All you are doing is smearing the shit further.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:08 AM

Dave - you miss my point
I hardly respond to this feller and I never do so in expectation of an answer
I hope to allow him to humiliate himself and he seldom lets me down
I believe hiis behaviour is driving away Breciteers who might - just might be capable of putting up an argument rather than the stream of invective and personal abuse we are getting here
Let's face it - if someone acted as he does here in a live situation, he would be taken into care for his own protection - just try putting him in your local - to be pitied rather than despised
I was told his behaviour would be 'looked into' - no signs of it having been so far
Let's leave it there
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:23 AM

"Some of the links provided in this threads are to articles suggesting that the agriculture industry will be the first to suffer from a hard Brexit."

Ironic, innit, then, that farmers were among the most enthusiastic leave voters. I'm not a farmer but I live on a farm and most of my neighbours are farmers, so I'll leave it there. The average conversation with a farmer about brexit really gets me scratching my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:27 AM

PM sent, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:33 AM

Today Amber Rudd has resigned from Boris Johnson's cabinet.


I am reminded of the Queen song " another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM

I wouldn't mind betting that the Queen would rather like Johnson to bite the dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM

Cheap shot, Iains. If you actually know how to use a computer, hover your mouse over the link and it will show you the details.
-Joe Offer-
Not so Joe.I use a laptop and have no mouse.All I can do is hover the cursor. I tried that and nothing happens. The only way I can read the title is to double click to open it in it's entirety.
(and I have used computers since 1973)

Perhaps you should address the continuous stream of abuse below.

I don't know how many more times I'll have the energy to say this. But here goes. If you respond in any way at all to Iains, he will keep winding you up. I'm really sorry to say this, Jim, but you are the prime mover here when it comes to keeping him going and I for one haven't a bloody clue why you feel the need to keep on doing it. He is not poisoning the world. He is poisoning the tiny group of us who can be arsed to read his posts (and I'm not even one of them any more - I go into auto-skip as soon as I see his name). He doesn't matter. I learn a lot by reading the measured views of the reasonable contributors here. But you, Jim, above all others (though you're not alone), are guilty of keeping this bastard going. When we don't respond he acts like an hysterical kid, desperately seeking attention by posting more and more stupid and irrelevant nonsense to try to wind us up. Jim, he's a bloody idiot who has nothing to say, nothing to contribute. His modus operandi is to wind you up. I appeal to you to try once and for all to try to see it. Honestly, Jim, we can make him go away, even if the mods won't. Ignore him, let him rant on, and eventually he'll disappear up his own unwashed hysterical arsehole. Could I be more direct? Try me!

I post factual content and rarely omit fully supporting links to substantiate my arguments.
Shaw by contrast pontificates as the absolute authority on all things yet in 23000 posts have never backed up a single assertion with a link.(yet I am instructed to provide links)
Do we have a level playing field or do we not? Are we not all subject to the same rules posting on mudcat. I have received a constant stream of abuse off shaw for years. Does he have have a get out of jail card while I am suspended?
IF people deliberately misinterpret what I say to attach labels such as racist, fascist, mental midget etc then if mods will not respond I will.
I represent the majority view on Brexit ie LEAVE.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:48 AM

Nadhim Zahawi refuses to say that Bozza will follow the law of the land (Broadcasting House right now...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 05:30 AM

"Bozza will follow the law of the land (Broadcasting House right now."
The Times seems to confirm that he will refuse to do follow any law passed, the rational being that he is now mounting a "people versus Parliament" populist campaign that has been successful in putting fascism back on the streets elsewhere, and Trump in the White House with Klan backing
As they say, 'hang on, it's going to be a bumpy ride'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 09:42 AM

Parliamentary democracy in this country relies absolutely on majorities passing motions/making laws. If you don't like what our MPs are doing, then you vote them out next time. What you don't get to do is wail and moan that MPs are undermining or negating democracy just because you don't agree, as long as proper process is being followed, which it has in every case recently. In terms of the referendum, it was called after a democratic vote in parliament. Same with Article 50. I hated both those decisions but there is no law against Parliament making stupid decisions as long as due process is followed. I see that the horrendous Leadsom now has the Speaker in her sights. She should remember that he's no leftie, a former Tory in fact, and that he's been steadfast and consistent in insisting that Parliament's role is protected and not undermined by an executive that finds its decisions inconvenient. Too bad. They'd better get a bigger majority next time is my advice. He's not going to allow vexatious manoeuvres such as bringing back the same motion over and over again by hypocrites who excoriate those calling for another referendum "until they get the right result." It's possible that Johnson may try to present a motion tomorrow suspending the Fixed Term Parliament Act (one of those very silly laws I was talking about) just to get the election he wants to have (he'd need a majority of just one, instead of the two-thirds required by law). It wouldn't work anyway, and I'd applaud the Speaker for disallowing that move on the grounds that Johnson would be trying vexatiously to subvert the will of Parliament. I've got little time for Bercow, but he's played a blinder in the last few months in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 11:34 AM

Get Ready for No-Deal Brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 12:55 PM

That was wonderful Baccie - cheered me up no end
HAVE TO ADMIT I THOUGHT THE YOUNG LADY WAS TAKING THE PISS
Apparently not
You really couldn't make this stuff up
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM

This whizzy idea to send two contradictory letters is bizarre. If he wanted to do something to convince any waverers for a vote tonight that he could not be trusted to obey the laws he could hardly have come up with a better idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:31 AM

Blair made promises of a referendum in both 2004 and 2005.
On 20 April 2004 the PM told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."Fast-forward to the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."

04 Jul 2007 Gordon Brown yesterday ruled out holding a referendum on a new European constitutional treaty as part of a wide-ranging package of reforms to give "more power to Parliament and the British people".

23 January 2013 PM Cameron: "It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

Seems a pretty unambiguous statement that the people would decide.
To turn around 5 minutes later and say it was only advisory rather flies in the face of the preceding hype, prior to the referendum.
A clear case of unsurpassed parliamentary knavery to defy the will of the majority, aided by a clearly partisan speaker.
Sovereignty is only ceded to parliament for a parliamentary session.
When parliament is suspended for an election,sovereignty reverts to the people.
Politicians need to be aware thet are not sovereign, only the people are.
And the majority that voted leave are getting more than a little hacked off. After all the referendum was held on the basis that: "I say to the British people: this will be your decision." Reneging on that is an affront to democracy.
The coming election will see the rebels routed and magic grandpa's party destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

Dom and Dumber have one plan - this is a carefully-orchestrated run-down to a No-Deal Exit on 31/10/19.

THAT’S IT!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:54 AM

With regard to the Irish boarder apparently Johnson has "an abundance of proposals”. But he does now want to share them with the media.

I am reminded of a child in a playground for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

If he sends two contradictory letters he'll be in just as much trouble as if he hadn't sent a letter at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:57 AM

"With regard to the Irish boarder apparently "
Theer were all sorts of rumours about a neighbour and her Irish boarder when I lived in Kirkby - I was too young to understand what they were about :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

Oh bugger !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:09 AM

One solution to the likely food-shortages after a No-Deal Brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:34 AM

"Oh bugger !!"
Never heard that she had gone that far Rag
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:35 AM

I would consider this fair warning to Johnson, Javid et al.



The Criminal Bar Association has condemned suggestions from the government that it might try to ignore the law saying the PM would have to request a Brexit extension by 19 October, unless Boris Johnson either agrees a deal or gets MPs to vote for no deal. This is from the CBA’s chair, Caroline Goodwin.

"As the CBA our role is not to say ‘remain’ or ‘leave’ but part of our role is to explain the law – criminal law – and play our part in upholding the rule of law.

Standing up for the rule of law underpins our civil society – the economy, justice system, societal cohesion.

In or out the EU, a government that stands up for the rule of law acts in the best interests of the people – parliament included.

Any government – the executive – which ignores the rule of law and actively seeks to break the law undermines the entire justice system, opens the door wide open to mob rule and very quickly to anarchy.

How can a government on the one hand pledge to unleash a ‘reign of terror’ on criminals when its own leadership threatens to break the law?

We cannot expect people not to rob, rape and murder when a government declares it may break the law. We cannot lay rape to the rule of law."

Should be clear enough to even them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:36 AM

Each to their own Jim, each to their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:04 AM

Sorry for the interruption Rag
Haven't been able to control myself since the joke thread opened
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:24 AM

You remainers must ask yourselves:
Is the extension bill law yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:31 AM

I wouldn't notmally post this much quoted text, but it's very important information and the site it comes from isn't always up.


Brexit is on the horizon.

Drugs shortages are on the horizon with Brexit looming.Drugs shortages are on the horizon with Brexit looming.
The UK is currently set to leave the European Union, following a “Leave” result in the 2016 referendum. We don’t know yet exactly how this will pan out, although the likelihood of a no deal Brexit is looking increasingly likely. But how will this effect your prescriptions? There are already widespread reports of delays in Pharmacies due to unavailable medication, even for relatively common drugs. Many patients report being negatively affected by this, as drug shortages potentially endanger many.

For your information, we can share with you the following medications which our suppliers have expressed concern about, either because there are worries around future import rights or because the prices are already rising as a result of stockpiling; leading to real concerns over post-Brexit costs and availability.

For instance, high blood pressure (hypertension) medications such as Telmisartan, Valsartan, Remipril, Olmesartan, Nebivolol, Nifedipine (Adalat), Candesartan, Losartan (Cozaar), Lisinopril, Irbesartan, Bendroflumethiazide (Aprinox), and Amlodipine (Norvasc) are currently affected by the shortage. Antidepressants on the list include Venlafaxine, Lofepramine, Sertraline, Dosulepin, and Citalopram. Medications to treat or slow the development of Parkinson’s disease such as Rasagiline, Co-careldopa, and Ropinirole are also struggling to stay in stock. Risperidone, Quetiapine, and Olanzapine, which are primarily used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, are also steadilly going up in price due to UK Pharmacies stocking up.

Medication Possibly Affected by Brexit:

Acamprosate (Campral) – prescribed alongside counselling to treat alcohol dependence.
Aciclovir (Acyclovir) – an antiviral medication primarily used for the treatment of herpes simplex virus infections, chickenpox, and shingles.
Allopurinol – to decrease high blood uric acid levels. It is specifically used to prevent gout, prevent specific types of kidney stones and for the high uric acid levels that can occur with chemotherapy.
Amlodipine – is a medication used to treat hypertension (high blood pressure) and coronary artery disease.
Baclofen – to treat spasticity. It is used as a central nervous system depressant and skeletal muscle relaxant.
Bendroflumethiazide (Aprinox) – used in the management of hypertension (high blood pressure).
Calcipotriol ointment – for the treatment of psoriasis.
Candesartan – used for the treatment of hypertension and congestive heart failure.
Cetirizine – a second-generation antihistamine.
Citalopram – an antidepressant used to treat major depressive disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, panic disorder, and social phobia.
Co-careldopa – used to manage the symptoms of Parkinson’s disease.
Co-codamol tablets – pain relief when ibuprofen, aspirin, or naproxen alone do not sufficiently relieve a patient’s symptoms.
Cyclizine – a medication used to treat and prevent nausea, vomiting and dizziness due to motion sickness or vertigo.
Desogestrel (Cerelle) – a progestin medication which is used in birth control pills for women. It is also used in the treatment of menopausal symptoms in women.
Dihydrocodeine – prescribed for pain or severe dyspnea.
Dispersible Aspirin tablets – to treat pain, fever, or inflammation.
Dosulepin (Prothiaden) – is used in the treatment of depression.
Doxycycline – an antibiotic used in the treatment of pneumonia, acne, chlamydia infections, early Lyme disease, cholera and syphilis.
Esomeprazole (Nexium) – a proton-pump inhibitor which reduces stomach acid.
Exemestane (Aromasin) – a medication used to treat breast cancer.
Finasteride (Proscar/Propecia) – to treat an enlarged prostate or scalp hair loss in men. It can also be used to treat excessive hair growth in women and as a part of hormone therapy for transgender women.
Glimepiride (Amaryl) – an anti-diabetic medication.
Hydrocortisone – a steroid medicine that is used in the treatment of many different conditions, including allergic disorders, skin conditions, ulcerative colitis, arthritis, lupus, multiple sclerosis, or lung disorders.
Hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil) – used for the prevention and treatment of certain types of malaria as well as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and porphyria cutanea tarda.
Irbesartan – used for the treatment of hypertension (high blood pressure).
Lansoprazole (Prevacid) – to control the stomach’s production of gastric acid, effectively controlling pH inside the stomach.
Liquid Carbamazepine (Tegretol) – to treat epilepsy, neuropathic pain, and schizophrenia.
Lisinopril – to treat hypertension (high blood pressure), heart failure, and after heart attacks.
Lofepramine (Gamanil/Lomont/Tymelyt) – a tricyclic antidepressant which is used to treat depression.
Losartan (Cozaar) – used to treat hypertension (high blood pressure). Other uses include for diabetic kidney disease, heart failure, and left ventricular enlargement.
Meloxicam (Mobic) – anti-inflammatory drug used to treat pain and inflammation in rheumatic diseases and osteoarthritis.
Metformin (Glucophage) – type 2 diabetes medication.
Metoclopramide – commonly used to treat and prevent nausea and vomiting, to help with emptying of the stomach in people with delayed stomach emptying, gastroenteritis and to help with gastroesophageal reflux disease. It is also used to treat migraine headaches.
Metronidazole (Flagyl) – used either alone or with other antibiotics to treat pelvic inflammatory disease, endocarditis, and bacterial vaginosis.
Naproxen (Aleve/Naprosyn) – an anti-inflammatory used to treat pain, menstrual cramps, inflammatory diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, and fever.
Nebivolol – used for the treatment of hypertension (high blood pressure).
Nifedipine (Adalat) – used to manage angina, hypertension (high blood pressure), Raynaud’s phenomenon, and premature labour.
Nortriptyline (Allegron/Aventyl/Noritren/Nortrilen/Pamelor) – used to treat clinical depression. Another licensed use for it is in the treatment of childhood bedwetting
Olanzapine (Zyprexa) – an antipsychotic primarily used to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.
Olmesartan – used for the treatment of hypertension (high blood pressure).
Omeprazole – is a medication used in the treatment of gastroesophageal reflux disease, peptic ulcer disease, and Zollinger–Ellison syndrome.
Oxybutynin – to relieve urinary and bladder difficulties, including frequent urination and inability to control urination, by decreasing muscle spasms of the bladder. It is also given to help with symptoms associated with kidney stones.
Prednisolone – a steroid medication used to treat certain types of allergies, inflammatory conditions, autoimmune disorders, and cancers.
Pregabalin (Lyrica) – used to treat epilepsy, neuropathic pain, fibromyalgia, restless leg syndrome, and generalized anxiety disorder.
Quetiapine (Seroquel) – an antipsychotic used for the treatment of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder.
Rasagiline – used as a monotherapy to treat symptoms in early Parkinson’s disease or as an adjunct therapy in more advanced cases.
Ramipril (Altace) – used to treat high blood pressure and congestive heart failure.
Risperidone (Risperdal) – an antipsychotic used to treat schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and irritability associated with autism.
Ropinirole – used in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease and restless legs syndrome.
Sertraline (Zoloft) – an antidepressant medication used to treat major depressive disorder, obsessive–compulsive disorder, panic disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, and social anxiety disorder.
Sildenafil (Viagra) – used to treat erectile dysfunction and pulmonary arterial hypertension.
Sodium valproate (or valproate sodium) – an anticonvulsant used in the treatment of epilepsy, anorexia nervosa, panic attack, anxiety disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, migraine and bipolar disorder, as well as other psychiatric conditions requiring the administration of a mood stabiliser.
Sotalol – to treat abnormal heart rhythms.
Tamsulosin (Flomax) – for symptomatic benign prostatic hyperplasia, chronic prostatitis, and to help with the passage of kidney stones.
Telmisartan – used in the management of hypertension (high blood pressure).
Tibolone – for menopausal hormone therapy and in the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis and endometriosis.
Valsartan – mainly used for treatment of high blood pressure, congestive heart failure, and to increase the chances of living longer after a heart attack.
Venlafaxine (Effexor) – an antidepressant medication used to treat major depressive disorder, generalised anxiety disorder, panic disorder, and social phobia.
Zopiclone – used in the treatment of insomnia.

link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:37 AM

"BREAKING: The Benn bill aimed at blocking no-deal Brexit on 31 October has become law after the Queen gave Royal Assent."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:46 AM

" The Benn bill aimed at blocking no-deal Brexit on 31 October has become law after the Queen gave Royal Assent."
Not good news for our Staffordshire English Defence League member than
Shame
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:52 AM

Step six successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:00 AM

Bercow standing down end of October. Wonderful news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:13 AM

Some interesting comments about Bercow in the press. If there is not another election it will be the current members who elect the new Speaker, who is far more likely to be in Bercow's mould than the Brexiteer the government seemed to want. Shows every sign if being clever timing to thwart the wilder elements.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:18 AM

"BREAKING: The Benn bill aimed at blocking no-deal Brexit on 31 October has become law after the Queen gave Royal Assent."
I see no mention on the internet. Have you a link?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:25 AM

It was on the Independent live feed and CNN news, but if you wish to continuing hanging on by your fingernails feel free!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:26 AM

It appears that our fascist member doesn't know how to select a bit of text and paste it into a Google search box to figure out where it comes from. (Handling that much stuff on my very old phone makes it difficult to wrap quotes in the appropriate metadata - I was lucky the session didn't crash).

Anybody who does that will see that less complete versions of that list have been publicized from many sources in the last few weeks. Some of the shortages have already started, including medications my wife and I are prescribed. E-Surgery didn't say exactly where they got it, my guess is that it was from a report compilled for the Operation Yellowhammer Civil Service team. I imagine it's been quite widely circulated around medical and pharmacy professionals.

A quick look at the label on a few boxes of prescription medications, and a look at the BNF listings of who makes the alternatives for multi-supplier drugs, would make it pretty obvious why there's a problem. It wouldn't be hard to reconstruct the list from standard public references about pharmaceutical logistics. When this was first raised publicly a few months ago I looked in our medicine cabinet: of the 17 medications my wife and I take between us, 3 were made in the UK and the rest in the EU27.

---

Located and added by mudelf, because it is important information. Found using exactly the method described here. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:51 AM

STEP SIX SUCCESSFUL
Nowhere near reliable as Guido, I'm afraid - no British National Party links
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM

No one can be sure what will happen if/when we leave the EU. With regards to imports into the UK, the plan is to have a temporary tariff, under which up to 87% of imports by value would be duty free. That would mean that most of the stuff coming here from the EU would be free of duties etc.

However...

Due to changes caused by our leaving there are likely to be some teething problems (to put it mildly) to setting up/agreeing new procedures for documentation etc required to import UK goods into the EU. This could well cause delays to vehicles entering the EU from the UK, which in turn will mean a delay to them reloading more of the EU goods that we need here in the UK.

With any change in procedures there are likely to be some problems. They will be overcome. With regards to panic buying here in the UK, that too should settle down after a short while.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:59 AM

And on the BBC live feed at 16:06

Why does a Benny Hill song "Put your fingers in your ears and go 'ting-a-ling-a-loo" come to mind, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:09 PM

Funny thing that, D. When I started a search for "Benn Bill" the first thing Ms Google suggested was Benny Hill. Bringing us right back to BoJo the clown. He has said he would "die in a ditch" rather than obey the law. I do hope he doesn't. We have not had this much entertainment from any politician since "Spitting Image" finished. They would have had a field day!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:11 PM

"No one can be sure what will happen if/when we leave the EU."
No responsible Government can possibly take such an important decision not knowing what can happen RD
According to Gove, the Government's own predictions listed in the 'Yellowhammer Document" were made some years ago
Instead of people being made aware of them they were kept in the dark
I suggest you read through the list of predictions and come back and tell us there was no need to make them public
This is the kind of secrecy The Soviet Union was accused of indulging in during The Cold War - Johnson has sunk Britain to that level

I reckon a successful Step Six would be for Johnson to attempt to crash out of Europe after it has been made illegal Rag
Then we could take turns in visiting him in The Scrubs
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:34 PM

As I have said earlier, the so called debate before the last referendum was laughable. The remain campaign had few facts to go on, as at that time they had not even considered that people might vote to leave.

I personally think that if do have another referendum it will be close again and could go either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:06 PM

"I personally think that if do have another referendum it will be close again and could go either way."
On what to you base this RD. and how on earth will that solve the problems Brexit has already caused and will continue to cause ?
Do you really believe that the British People are a bunch of lemmings ?
I don't believe they would be so suicidally stupid and if they are we deserve everything we get, but at least it would be a decision taken with some knowledge, which is what democracy entiles us all to
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:08 PM

It seems all are now confirming the Benn wrecking bill has now become law. It was nodded through the commons(not even counted), encouraged through the Lords at top speed and now given Royal Assent. One must ask the question why?
    I suspect the bill has a fatal flaw contained within that will invalidate it. I could be wrong but we shall see. There may well be a case to answer in the Courts concerning Bercow dismissing the need for Queen's consent, and how it may impact the Queen's Perogative and thereby does need queen's consent. Such decisions are normally within the remit of the speaker, HOWEVER........... I see choppy waters ahead.
All will come clear in the fullness of time no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:22 PM

On what to you base this RD. and how on earth will that solve the problems Brexit has already caused and will continue to cause ?
Do you really believe that the British People are a bunch of lemmings ?
I don't believe they would be so suicidally stupid and if they are we deserve everything we get, but at least it would be a decision taken with some knowledge, which is what democracy entiles us all to

Your question is already answered.
29 Brexit party seats in the EU parliament.(A clear majority)
In local government elections:
Conservatives: the party lost control of nearly a third of the councils it had.It came out with 93(down 45).In the process,it saw net losses of 1,269 seats.
Labour: Had hoped to make ground, not lose it. The party saw a net loss of six councils, ending up controlling 60, and had a net loss of 63 seats along the way.Lib Dems: The biggest winners. The Lib Dems managed net gains of 11 councils – leaving them in control of 18 – and 676 councillors.

of course the brexit party had no time to participate in these elections and the Lib Dems picked up the protest vote

I have no doubt the level of frustration of the electorate has continued rising since(03.5.19)

The coming election is going to be brutal and I predict Labour is going to be destroyed for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

Again a request for an election is rejected. The rebels are quite happy to collude with a rogue speaker to drive legislation through the house without the authority of the ruling party.
Yet when twice being offered the choice of an election to allow the electorate to give legitimacy to their actions they balk!

Are they worried they do not have popular support for their actions?
They merely postpone their inevitable day of reckoning, while more and more of the electorate steadily awake to the destruction of democracy, well exemplified by rebels assaulting staff of the commons around the speakers chair last night. Hardly an edifying site, but thoroughly in keeping with the rebels standards of behaviour. They cannot obtain legitimacy through the ballot box, so now they try by resorting to violence.
The enemy is showing it's true colours!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 09:19 AM

Fabulous result again, which makes the proroguing of Parliament nothing more than an undemocratic act of pure vindictiveness (unless these bastards are preparing to move in the tanks)   
I have to express my gratitude for the persistent examples of mindless nastiness of Brexit without having to move away from these threads
When people start referring to fellow Britons who don't agree with them as "the enemy" and "traitors" we all need to start strengthening our front doors and making sure our locks work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 09:24 AM

I am a bit concerned about the rumours the LibDems are considering an SO24 calling for Article 40 to be revoked. Having avoided the elephant traps so far, I think it unwise to build one on behalf of the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 09:45 AM

I assume that is article 50 Mac ?
If so, there was a petition which received over two million signatures calling for just this
I'd be more than happy to see it happen but I agree that now is probably not the time
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 10:15 AM

Jo Swinson made a passionate, eloquent and excoriating attack on Johnson last night, and she's a likeable character, but the LibDems' tactic of saying that they will revoke Article 50 if they get a parliamentary majority (anyone just see that flying pig?) means that a united front presented by the opposition parties, so nicely on display in the Commons this week, is impossible in the election campaign to come. My view, which I've arrived at very reluctantly, is that a united opposition to the Tories should be predicated on fighting for another referendum and a campaign to remain. I would really love to see my Labour Party move to that position (which puts me in the somewhat unenviable position of agreeing with Peter Mandelson - he's a canny bugger if nothing else). We're not far off, and, with the LibDems in accord, along with the Greens and nationalist parties, we'd have a formidable opposition to this disastrous shower.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

So Caroline Flint is saying 50 Labout MPs are ready to back a new deal. She is entitled to her view and in fact her voting record on Brexit has been pretty consistent. But if 50 Labour MPs are ready to vote for a deal without knowing what it is that is a sorry state of affairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 12:53 PM

17 million voted for brexit without knowing what it was, D ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:00 PM

Point taken, Dave :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

Irishman Phil Hogan, agriculture representitive, has been appointed new Trade Commissioner, so when/if ever the UK get their collective arses into gear and returns to negotiate leaving it is he who they will have to negotiate with - I'm damned sure he's not going to agree anything that involves a border
More Briolence in Northern Ireland today when a police vehicle is attacked
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:10 PM

”17 million voted for brexit without knowing what it was, D ;-) “

Yes Dave, but MPs are supposed to be intelligent and rational, whereas.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:58 PM

”17 million voted for brexit without knowing what it was,
!7.4 million actually. But they knew sufficient to put the x in the right box,
Presumably the losers did not. That is probably why they lost.
No matter what arguments you continue to advance, the fact remains that you lost. I would have thought that after more than three years you would all be aware of that fact by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 05:28 PM

Looks like a terminal Brexit ‘Bump in the Road’ for the Isle of Skye Chocolate Co. pretty sure there will be a lot more small businesses finding themselves in this position once Dom & Dumber have run us over the no-deal cliff-edge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 05:58 PM

The LibDems, nationalist parties and Greens are all united in wanting a referendum and calling for remain. I'm not happy that Labour are keen to get their own deal (yeah, sure...) then have a referendum with no remain policy. We're going to have half the bloody party campaigning against their own deal. A split. It won't do. We need a degree of unity on this among all opposition parties in order to beat the bloody Tories. Priority numero uno. I should like to see Labour solidly in the remain camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

i'm just back in from my labour party branch meeting - it was really good. we had a long discussion on how to mandate our delegate to conference on the brexit question. we had a range of views, the question is not simple but we were very respectful of *all views and did not argue - or reach a decision . so pretty much typical labour party then.

i say *all but my own suggestion was to say we have left, to change the passports back to dark blue, say a few au revoirs and auf wiedersehns and missing you already. then carry on exactly as before. we remainers could carry on smugly while brexiteers could say 'you remoaners said it would be a disaster and it's not bad at all, losers'

really, how would we know if we had left. or not? everyone is happy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:32 AM

We will have to see what comes out of the conferences but the current Labour policy to me sounds intellectually and morally sound.. Summering it, we believe in and recommend remain, but if you reject that we are duty bound to offer the best version of leave we can, even though that is not our preference.

Sound.
Moral,

Disastrous as a campaigning message.

I have already had messages from people who are not necessarily on either side who find campaigning against what you have negotiated incomprehensible. It will exploited to the full as if it is confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:56 AM

"Disastrous as a campaigning message."
It seems to me that, whatever happens over leaving Europe, politics are never going to be the same again in British Politics
Johnson and his wrecking gang have more or less wrecked any pretence of democracy now and whatever party replaces him (he can't possibly continue) can forget about taking over as if nothing has happened
What should Labour campaigning on ?
It seems to me that if the UK is to survive, in or out of Europe, its political structures have to be rebuilt

I gave up voting when Blair's mob removed any chance of a better society from Labour's aims - I became interested again when Corbyn became talking about changing society - it seems to me that could be lost by compromising on those changes with a coalition of the same-cold, same old, with the shelving of the ideal that Labour has, or should have stood for

Rather than narrow the gap between haves and have-nots, the loss of investment and yet more British industries has widened it considerably

THe last coalition Ireland's Labour Party entered into set it back decades - I would hate Corbyn to fall into the same trap
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

The Labour Party has shifted position on an election so much that their website currently hosts a page published less than a week ago that says Labour will back an election as soon as their Surrender Bill passed. The bill passed. Not a single Labour MP voted for an election.
The Labour Brexit policy is vaguely reminiscent of three not wise monkeys
Hear no sense
See no sense
Speak nonsense

They have an extensive nationalisation program planned(against EU Law)
They want to commandeer houses and forcibly sell them below market value( I look forward to seeing that one fly as it is in direct conflict with the European Convention on Human Rights as amended by the provisions of Protocol No. 14 (CETS no. 194) as from its entry into force on 1 June 2010)

According to McDonnell Labour has finally come full-circle on their ever-shifting Brexit policy; from respecting the result of the referendum to saying their second referendum will be a choice between no Brexit and Brexit in name only. The next election will be a very stark choice…

How magic grandad expects to win an election when they are all at odds on Brexit totally escapes me. I am sure their party conference will be like an audition for the GOON show, presumably borrowing elements from the Monty Python 'Dead Parrot' sketch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM

Jim Carroll posted on the 9.9.19 in answer to an earlier post of mine

""I personally think that if do have another referendum it will be close again and could go either way."
On what to you base this RD. and how on earth will that solve the problems Brexit has already caused and will continue to cause ?
Do you really believe that the British People are a bunch of lemmings ?
I don't believe they would be so suicidally stupid and if they are we deserve everything we get, but at least it would be a decision taken with some knowledge, which is what democracy entiles us all to"

Why do I think if we had another referendum again it would be close?

I live in the largest European Parliament constituency here in the UK. In the last election Brexit won 4 of the 10 seats with 36.1% of the vote, the Lib Dems were second with 3 seats, 25.7%.

In Kent, where I live, 9 areas they got mid to high 40s percent. 2 areas low 40s and 1 area 51.1 %. There were only 2 areas where they got under 40. Granted it was the usual low turnout but it is only those of us who turn out that get counted.

In the referendum here in Kent, with a turnout over 70%, the vote was near enough 2 to 1 in favour of leaving. Before the referendum I had little doubt that it would be close, going on talking with people locally.

Now when I talk to people about the mess that we are now in, I have yet to come across one leave voter who has changed their mind. I should add that unlike some of you here, I am able to talk in the pubs with leave voters. I always tell them that I voted to remain and have to admit that one or two have given me some strange looks but that was it. Admittedly I did get strange looks before the referendum.

Like I have said, there has always been a number of people who were opposed to us joining the EU and remaining in it. Both parties were split before we joined and also in the 1975 referendum.

Here in Kent, 100s of jobs were lost as a result of us being in the EU, especially after 1993 and the free movement of goods. One of the prime movers for this initiative was a certain Margaret Thatcher.

That is why I think it will be close again.

You and some of your friends here can say that all leave voters are stupid, Nazi, racist people. Some of them may well be but the majority are not.

The language that is used here at times is appalling. You are forever going on about Nazi dictatorships and saying that people should be beheaded. What the hell is that all about? If we met in a pub and you came out with that sort of talk, I would just walk away. You appear at times to display the same traits of the people you disagree with.

You are far too quick to label people racist. You yourself made a comment back on the 7th August which I found unbelievable and insulting to my parents, my cousins and all other Irish people. You should be ashamed of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:20 AM

Nice bit of grandstanding off the Scottish Courts. Totally meaningless finding of course.
We now kick the circus off to the supreme court and after that the ECJ just for added comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:16 AM

The home Counties - 'the soft underbelly of Britain' is no indication of what will happen elsewhere - it never has been
The hardest hit so far are the Northern Areas, particularly the North East
It would be little less than self harm to continue voting for Brexit up there
Wales voted to leave but the talk among Wesh farmers is of civil unrest if things on the path they are moving
Members of my family, in the North West and on the South Coast voted to leave - they regret it now, especially the one who has a lucrative job involving trips to Italy
Personal experiences such as these are meaningless in the ligh of a now proven disastor course Britain is on
I don't think leavers are stupid - I've recently warned against the error of describing them such
I say they've been lied to, starved of information, and bullied - it would be a very 'stupid' individual to claim otherwise

The racism speaks for itself - from Farage's disgusting poster to the massive spike in racist incidents immediately following the referendum
Britain already had a racist problem - when a right-wing-scum bucket like the Daily Mail publish a nationwide survey indicating that between a quarter and a third of British people hold and have expressed racist opinions you need to look around you with more critical eyes
I know from having lived in three of Britain's major cities how racist Britain is
We even have our own "bogtrotter", "Froggies" and "Traveller thieves and slaveowners" on this forum as examples of the worst of what's happening to the British people   

Good to see YET ANOTHER KICK UP THE ARSE turned into a victory
Things get better and better by the minute
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:30 AM

”You are forever........saying that people should be beheaded.”

Sorry, Raindog, that’s nonsense. I have never seen, or heard, here or anywhere else, a Remainer make death-threats against Leavers. However, Internet forums, FarceBook, and Twatter are littered with examples of Leavers telling Remainers they are ‘Traitors who should be arrested, marched out, and shot at dawn for Treason’, and other expressions to similar effect.

It’s been said to me - both on FarceBook and face-to-face - on a number of occasions. I see just as many, if not more, ‘sore winners’ on the Leave side as I see ‘sore losers’ on the Remain side.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:37 AM

"The home Counties - 'the soft underbelly of Britain' is no indication of what will happen elsewhere - it never has been"

Guess it has been quite a while since you were down in Kent then Jim. Like most places there is a mix of people. I am sure that the ex miners of Kent would have had something to say about your comment. Here on the south coast there are quite a few deprived areas

Again you go one about racists? What about your own racist comment about the Irish? Do you repeat that to all your neighbours and expect them to agree with it?

Seems like a few people should be taking medication to treat their hysteria.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:54 AM

More on the planned mass murder by medicine shortage.

the Black Dot campaign

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:58 AM

email attachment from my online pharmacist today

https://www.pharmacy2u.co.uk/news/superintendent-pharmacist-phil-day-on-brexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:06 AM

Something for the Dom & Dumber devotees to think about...

https://www.facebook.com/276638585821743/posts/1415479091937681?sfns=mo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:22 AM

"email attachment from my online pharmacist today"
The denials and whataboutism in that e-mail give it an extremely biased aspect Stan.
If "steps have been put into place" to avoid shortages it would have been blazened over every front page in Britain - Brexit would be proudly announcing it in Parliament if he hadn't shut it down
Give us a break - you're nearly as bad as our Guido adherent

"Guess it has been quite a while since you were down in Kent then Jim. "
I have family living on the South coast
Anywhere within reach of London is considered a suburb and is much further from imminent damage that the rest of the country that Thatcher deliberately alienated in her creation of 'Britain's two states'
To a great degree, that has always been the case, which is why I was forced to move from the north nearly half a century ago.

There are now calls to reopen parliament as Johnson's Junta has just recieved yet another kick in the goolies with the Scottish Court's decision
The decision to close it was described as "an attempt to stymie democracy"
Johnson has said he'll appeal of course - why wouldn't he - the taxpayer will foot te bill and the British economy is doing so well it will only have to SACK SOME MEDICAL STAFF to cover the cost
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:44 AM

Jim Carroll posted

"
"Guess it has been quite a while since you were down in Kent then Jim. "
I have family living on the South coast
Anywhere within reach of London is considered a suburb and is much further from imminent damage that the rest of the country that Thatcher deliberately alienated in her creation of 'Britain's two states'
To a great degree, that has always been the case, which is why I was forced to move from the north nearly half a century ago."

Ah I see. As we are in easier reach to London than other areas we don't have any deprivation then?

I told you earlier about the loss of 100s of jobs down here in 1993, directly related to the EU. You ignored that though as usual.

Incidentally why did members of your family vote for Brexit? Are they racists too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

Brexit U-turn: More than a third of Remainers now want EU exit in huge turnaround
A NEW poll has revealed that 35 percent of Remainers now want Brexit to be delivered


https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1176414/brexit-latest-news-eu-uk-exit-no-deal-latest-boris-johnson-uk-politics

This will not be well received on this forum by the Enid Blyton Famous Five

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 09:29 AM

I hate to say this, but I'm finding myself agreeing with Tom Watson on strategy. But I really wish he would cut out the serial breaking of rank with Corbyn. Yes, Tom, we know you hate him. But the general idea is to get rid of the bloody Tories, no? Grrr...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 09:42 AM

"Ah I see. As we are in easier reach to London than other areas we don't have any deprivation then?"
Please don't distort what I say - I did not say that, nor do I believe it
Working people everywhere will be hit by the Brexit steamroller , those within the reach of London, where you can usually find half-decent work, even if it's in the 'Black Economy' will be less so that the rest of Britain
" Are they racists too?"
Unfortunately, some of them are
We all grew up in a post Empire Britain where foreigners were to be pitied and exploited becaiuse they were inferior' - we even sang hymns saying just that
I spent enough time with people from abroad - first on the docks in Liverpool, then with refugees and Holocaust survivors in Manchester and finally in gloriously multicultural London - all of which allowed me to form my opinions of hands-on experience
The north of England is just as prone to being used by being told that foreigners were likely to take our jobs, houses and women, wby those who it suits to spread that noxious message

" Are they racists too?"
A drop in the ocean comared to what is being lost br firms pissing off to avoid the damaging effects Brexit
100 obs - there are probably as many firms that have been forced to close already or are thinking of closing because of the uncertain future that has been created
Just wait till when Brits start pouring in from Europe because they can no longer work there
It was estimated that somewhere around 11,000 Brits are claiming dole in Europe   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 10:44 AM

BBC news: Why the Scottiah Court ruling is so significant

There are some Brexiteers who greeted the orignal case with acclaim when they won, and who now say this ruling is unimportant. Not the least of these is Dominic Raab, who as a lawyer should well understand this is a long process with appeal upon appeal, as I said in a post of a few days ago: it is a long game. (Apologies for not referencing the post, but my ability to look this up is hampered by a very limited Internet connection at the moment.)

No one should regard this as settled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 11:12 AM

"No one should regard this as settled."
I go along with this completely Mac, but what I think it shows quite clearly is that the proroguing of parliament has tried democracy and legality to the extreme limits limits
THis has been the case with this ***** referendum from day one
Even though the case failed to come to court, Farage's poster, which was the main influence in winning a vote even he didn't expect to win, skated the edges of Britain's incitement to race hatred laws
Like everything Populism touches, British democracy has now been tainted and made questionable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Didn't finish
What I just posted is confirmed by Gove's describing Laws passed by Parliament as "a pig in a poke" to be adhered to only when it suits the Government
That is an extremely dangerous attitude for any Government to be allowed to adopt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM

It is rather strange that the party who pride themselves on being "the party of law and order" are so keen to circumvent the law when they don't like it.

Although I realise it is not a done deal yet I was very happy with this mornings ruling.

Whatever happens now this will certainly damage any relationship between Johnson and the Queen, if they actually had one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 12:40 PM

Scottish law may run writ in Scotland. English Law runs writ in England.
The scottish judges decision is merely grandstanding and had no meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 01:02 PM

Whatever else this Scottish legal opinion does, it has greatly strengthened those who argue for Scottish Independence. Even more so if the Supreme court reverses the decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 01:26 PM

Y'knoww folks - could have sworn Brexit was about the UK - not Britain leaving Europe
You learn something every day, don't you
More Brhysterincal knee -jerk I suspect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 01:41 PM

If the appeal next week is successful every prediction of the destructive nature of Brexit will have been confirmed
It will set England and Scotland in direct legal conflict with each other and will mean there is no basis for maintaining the UK - certainly if England is given a free hand to make laws that are in opposition to those in Scotlad
Full house for remaining in Europe, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Just musing (probably an "am in front of thet more descriptive) this latest farce of events
If someone points out that Northern Ireland and Scotland chose to remain in the EU, these clowns line up to point out the both are part of the UK and subject to a wafer-thin majority (by those who voted) decision, whether its suits the Irish and the scots or doesn't
When it comes to the law governing how our democracy operates, "English Law Eules Rules, OK)
No wonder the world is pissing itself laughing at these antics
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 04:33 PM

The Supreme Court will not endorse today's ruling. Listen to Jonathan Sumption, the ex-Supreme Court judge. He hates what Johnson has done but can't see illegality, unfortunately. I've always found his opinions to be incredibly measured. I'll be amazed if I'm wrong. It'll be around two weeks before we hear the Supreme Court's decision. The only thing that really matters now about the prorogation is that we use it to demonstrate Johnson's utter dishonesty and sense of Etonian entitlement. It will work to his disadvantage in any case. Already has, actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM

I will wait for the ruling. The documents the Scottish courts had were not available before. Nor anything that may be revealed by the humble address.

You could easily be right, Steve, but it may not be clear cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:45 PM

Not only that, the release of the Yellowhammer papers reveals not only the panic in government circles about no deal but also the lying nature of this administration. They told us that the previous leak, which had a policeman marching an innocent adviser out of Downing Street, was out of date. It wasn't. What came out tonight is virtually the same. Shocking dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:45 PM

"Shocking dishonesty."
And far more likely to happen than was claimed was the case
Delays at ports - weeks long, shortage of medical goods immediate, food shotages, wage cuts, public disorder....
They have been caught deliberately lying to the electorate they claim to be working on behalf of
Despte this, they still refuse to release the full documents they have been ordered to make public
If it looks like a coup. if it goosesteps like a coup - it's probably a coup to overthrow Parliamentary democracy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM

The outcome of the Supreme court judgement will revolve entirely around what fresh material may be uncovered by the enforced release of material by the Parliamentary request. I doubt any private communications will be released as this would be in breach of EU law on data protection.
The Independent sets it out thus:
Only a summary of the Scottish Court’s reasoning has been released, with the full judgment to follow on Friday. Meanwhile the High Court in London has today released its reasons for rejecting Gina Miller and John Major’s legal challenge to prorogation. Its judgment is a powerful restatement of the orthodox legal view, and firmly and rightly rejects the constitutionally dubious argument that parliamentary sovereignty permits or requires the courts ‘to exercise hitherto unidentified power over the Executive branch of the state in its dealings with Parliament.’ The circumstances and reasons for proroguing Parliament are for the Government to decide.

The Government is bound by law in Scotland and Northern Ireland, just as much as in England and Wales, which is partly why litigation was commenced in all three places. It will now be for the Supreme Court, which hears an appeal on Tuesday, to decide whether the advice to prorogue Parliament is for the courts to decide and, if it is, whether Tuesday’s prorogation was unlawful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:08 AM

It is axiomatic that Democracy can only function when the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary remain entirely independent of one another.

Very clearly these lines have been blurred in recent weeks by unscrupulous MPs usurping the role of the executive and involving the Judiciary in decisions that rightly are the remit of the executive.
A partisan speaker has colluded with the executive opposition to enable these outrages to occur.
    Remainiacs may find it very amusing to be scoring all these supposed goals but the law of unintended consequences may well create innumerable own goals in the future besides creating havoc within our unwritten constitution.
    Erskine May was written for a time when MPs had honour and integrity. The need for a written Constitution becomes more compelling by the day.

This is not a new problem. Oliver Cromwell had it in a nutshell:
It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:42 AM

A stunning article in the Express today:
Diplomats and officials are “tearing their hair out” at the prospect Jeremy Corbyn winning the keys to Downing Street amid political chaos in London. They simply can’t understand why Labour have pledged to negotiate a “credible” Brexit deal with Brussels before campaigning against it in a referendum. Brussels sources also revealed they regret forming tactical alliances with Remain campaigners during the Brexit negotiations.


“They want us to negotiate a ‘credible’ deal and then they will campaign against it in a referendum? That is mad,” an EU source told the Times.

“How can we negotiate with people like that? Their divisions and magical thinking are as bad as anything the Conservatives produced – perhaps worse.”

Luvvin it !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:09 AM

What was the redacted section 15 about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:20 AM

it is disturbing that the Yellowhammer report talks about minimising the number of people impacted. So, who has decided that they have to god=given right to determine which of us will be impacted?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:04 AM

"about minimising the number of people impacted. "
Which is an admission of the contents of this document which was claimed to be "out of date"
This is now serial lying to the people

"What was the redacted section 15 about?"
It is claimed to be about the details of why these pricks closed down Parliament
Again, doing so was claimed to be standard practice and nothing out of the ordinary - obviously a can of worms they don't wish to open
They'll probably send it to Croydon, where it will be "disappeared" as were the 'Windrush' documents
These people are OUTBLAIRING TORY BLUR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM

The best way of guessing what the redacted section about - short of getting the original - is to compare it to the leaked version. However, I have been unable to find a copy of that; just articles derived from it that do not preserve that level of detail. Of course most searches now show the latest version. If anyone has access to the full leaked version, or a link to it, I would be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 08:16 AM

I was under tehe impression that Yellowhammer had not been edited - what has not ben released is the correspondence and records of the discussion regarding redaction
May have this wrong - it's pretty difficult to keep up with this farce
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM

EU: Backstop stays. End of.

Johnson: No backstop. End of.

EU: Northern Ireland-only backstop will be OK with us.

Johnson: Over my dead body.

Johnson: I'm full of good ideas about a deal.

EU: not a dickie bird from Johnson about his good ideas have we heard.

Johnson: we're leaving at Halloween, even with no deal.

Rest of the world: Oh yeah? How's that work then, Bozza?


Every morning I wake up thinking, nah, it's not real. But every time I find out that it's real all right. Are we actually paying this man wages?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 11:18 AM

Apparently Defra has refused to disclose details of potential disruption to food supplies saying there was a "strong public interest" in keeping the information secret.

What!!!!

Could someone please link to the article in the Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 11:32 AM

SEEING IS BELIEVING
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 01:50 PM

While some on Mudcat continue to bleat about hard done by the valiant brexiteers are, the death threats to their opponents continue.

They say you can tell a man by the company he keeps. When was the last time there was a death threat made by the remain factions?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:11 PM

Well I, for one, am not surprised in the slightest. However much the passive/aggressive victim-wannabes on the Leave side whine about ‘insults’ and ‘abuse’, Leavers resort just as frequently to that kind of behaviour, and my experience is that making death-threats is very much their domain. Never heard of a Remainer telling a Leaver they ‘should be arrested, marched out, and shot at dawn for treason’, but I’ve seen plenty of instances of Leavers telling Remainers precisely that.

Glasshouses, stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

i'm struggling at work just now . i am a remainer with 2 children working on the mainland. i would stand up against racism anyway but with our children's (we have 5) friends and partners being from all over i feel i must stand up and could have a daily argument with the racists and ukip 'tommy robinson types. of course, i have become used to it around town and in the pubs and have to suffer people assuming their racism and brexit nonsense is 'how it is round here' but it is horrible to be called a traitor or 'hear 'you are going to end up in hospital saying stuff like that' when i questioned the ethics of a shop near us selling nazi memorabilia i was told 'i'll fucking kill you if i see you anywhere near my shop again' So , for me, it's a daily problem and not just a controversy in the press. i was going to stand for council but decided not to as i'm scared to be more visible here - especially as 10 ex bnp/edl types have recently been elected to our local council. our house is for sale - we want to move to scotland or lancaster. it's tragic what has happened to england - we are decent people are regularly bshouted down by the bigotry and aggression of the tories and their far right followers. in what sort of world would the likes of nigel farage or mogg or johnson have any sort of influence in a modern democracy? anyone else remember the opening ceremony of the london olympics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

I am determined that it should never be forgotten that Jo Cox was the first victim of Brexit
I feel the same about the memory of Blair Peach for a different reason, but racism played a part in both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:54 PM

Dame Caroline Spelman is on record as saying she has been driven out of politics altogether due to abuse and death threats.

Regarding the blanked-out Item 15, Rosamund Urwin, senior reporter at the Sunday Times, tweeted the redacted content yesterday, which she got from her original leaked copy, received in August. It's in her Twitter feed:

- - -

@RosamundUrwin

So lots of people asking what the redacted part is... Here goes:

What's different about the new Yellowhammer document that the government has just published compared with the one I got hold of last month? The heading.
What did the version I had say? BASE SCENARIO
Now what does the new one say? HMG Reasonable Worst Case Planning Assumptions

15. "Facing EU tariffs makes petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability but UK Government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans." [More to come]

"This leads to significant financial losses and announcement of two refinery closures (and transition to import terminals) and direct job losses (about 2000). (2/3)

Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions directly supplied by the refineries." (3/3)

https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1171872961944571905

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:41 PM

Heh heh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:54 PM

Blair Peach was my friend. My sister saw Jo Cox grow up from a little girl and is a friend of Jo's mother. One a victim of naked police brutality when he was protesting about racism, murdered in fact by a policeman, the other murdered by a white supremacist. I feel these things sharply as you can imagine, but I was what I am now well before both those events. All forms of racism stink, and it makes me bloody sick to think that millions of people were hoodwinked into thinking racist thoughts during that rotten referendum campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:38 PM

These are strange times indeed. I have found myself being very impressed by John Majors passionate opposition to Brexit and today I have been impressed by Michael Hestletines clinical denunication of Johnsons claim to be a "one nation tory"

Could someone please link to the Guardian article, written by Hestletine "Boris Johnson has no right to call himself a one nation conservatve"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:42 PM

Here ya go Raggy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:55 PM

Thanks Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:13 AM

I have just had occasions to revisit Labour's 2017 manifesto. You know, the one that Brexiteers use to say every Labour MP was voted in under a manifesto saying they would leave?

Not surprisingly, that turns out to be a grave distortion. Here is an important paragraph, with my underlining:

Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a cliff-edge’ for the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:26 AM

Worth reading John Major's 'confessions' in this morning's papers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

You know, the one that Brexiteers use to say every Labour MP was voted in under a manifesto saying they would leave? stay leave stay leave stay leave stay????

You know the one that changes from leave to remain depending on whether it is magic grandpa or watson talking, or is it dependent on the state of the tides or phases of the moon?

The Financial Times has a wonderful summary of Labour's in out hokey cokey shambles

https://www.ft.com/content/24550040-d57b-11e9-8367-807ebd53ab77

Must be time for a carry on Compo film!

By the way, ehat is the position of Labour on Brexit today?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:38 AM


Worth reading John Major's 'confessions' in this morning's paper

Not to mention Nicky Morgan's confused statement that she would vote remain in another referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

"Nicky Morgan's confused statement that she would vote remain in another referendum."
Confused is right - I had to replay the item three times before I could (vaguely) understand it
Another crack in Johnson's Junta, as far as I can see
Not only have all the half-decent Tories pissed off - now the worst ones are beginning to
Hopefully that isn't opening the door for scumbuckets like Farage and Robinson
Watch this space
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 12:36 PM

Just read a post from my very wise daughter.

If the government really cared about 'the will of the people', fracking would have been banned years ago. The interests of big business seem more important to the people who are supposed to be in charge of protecting this country.

Selective democracy seems to be the order of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM

If the government cared about the will of the people we'd definitely be stringing dozens a year up and probably birching hundreds of others. We'd be "sending 'em back to where they came from" (even if it was West Bromwich). Actually, it could be that 52% think that right now...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:26 PM

I wouldn't like to generalise from.a single instance, but one UKIP member I know well is definitely in favour of capital punishment.

Meanwhile the conference season is upon us. Jo is playing a tricky hand, I think, and may overreach herself in going for the Revoke option. They are very unlikely to form a government in their own right and splitting themselves off from the other remain supporters is a risk. On the other hand I can see why she wants the LibDems to have a clear and distinct stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:00 PM

I's say things like that in WHISPERED TONES if I were you Mac
He seems to have his hands full at present but it's early days yet
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:02 PM

European Human Rights Legislation
Protocol 1, Article 3 requires the government to support your right to free expression

Protocol 1, Article 3 of the Human Rights Act requires the government to support your right to free expression by holding free elections at reasonable intervals. These elections must enable you to vote in secret.
Are there restrictions to this right?

The right to free elections is absolute. This means it must never be restricted in any way. (fixed term is a restriction)

However, the government can put some limits on the way elections are held. It can also decide what kind of electoral system to have – such as ‘first past the post’, as in UK general elections, or proportional representation.

It seems to me that commie corbyn is clearly frustrating this protocol in clear defiance of the elected government and the majority of the electorate.
It must be time to drag his sorry arse off to court for wholesale abuse of our human rights, along with all who voted with him on both occasions!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:32 PM

Another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:25 PM

The likelihood of this kind of thing is why we gave Whitby a miss this year:

Michael Morpurgo at Sidmouth

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:33 AM

I and others have commented before that the violence is coming from the brexiteers. They would use force to impose their views on everyone else then go on about others being undemocratic. I have no doubt that most are not violent people but it is very telling that the extremists who tend towards violence do all seem to be on the leave side. I have not seen the leaders of that campaign, or any of its supporters on here, denounce that violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:43 AM

Why would they? Even better than God, they have The Will Of The People on their side...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:50 AM

Article in 'The Independent' reports around 40 councils anticipate a rise in civil unrest (including hate-crime) if there is a 'No-Deal' Brexit

Official documents from 63 councils uncovered by the People’s Vote campaign have revealed local authorities fear that fundamental services could suffer and others could be cut if the UK crashes out of the EU.

... And just under two-thirds said civil unrest, increased tensions between communities and public disorder could be sparked, including Dartford council which warned of an “increase in hate crime” as the area had “always been a target” for extreme right wing groups.

====

(Dartford is a particular personal concern, as it is where my Mauritian daughter-in-law lives.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:52 AM

"They would use force to impose their views on everyone else then go on about others being undemocratic"
The bit on violence was deleted but it has to be discussed
Brexit was squeezed though using the built-in historical prejudices (xenophobia) of the English people which were a hangover of Empire.
The threatening nature of Brexit became apparent within days of the vote, with descriptions from people who had been asked when they were going back to where they came from - that has seriously escalated and has become a common feature of this conflict

A VEILED THREAT, IF EVER THERE WAS ONE "Vote for Brexit, or else"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

I have no doubt that there will be millions of people disappointed whatever happens. Which is why a compromise is needed. No deal, threatening violence or "you lost, get over it" is not a compromise. Cameron and his sorry bunch dropped us in it then he ran for the hills. They should be made to get us out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM

Excellent ten minutes from Tom Shakespeare on A Point Of View this morning on Radio 4. His theme was changing your mind. Among a number of quotes germane to this thread, he quoted Bertrand Russell thus: "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” Incredibly inappropriately, I instantly heard that as "...leavers are cocksure while remainers are full of doubt." I'm just off to confession. But give it a listen if you missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 05:13 AM

"His theme was changing your mind"
I thought a superb examplle of this was when a Question Time audience member tried to get a straight answer from a Brexiteer who said he has changed his mind, starting out as a remainer but now wanting to leave - the audience member failed to get any answer whatever but his parting show was "You are allowed to change your mind - why can't we"

Personally, I find some of the aggressive and insulting postings made to this discussion perfect examples of the behaviour that incites violence
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 08:33 AM

Anybody who went to Sidmouth witness the Brexiteer spitting on Michael Morpurgo or talk to Morpurgo afterwards?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 03:17 AM

Is it in doubt, Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

I didn't suggest it was in doubt. But somebody who was there might be able to fill the story out, and maybe identify the Brexiteer responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:27 AM

Ok, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 05:45 AM

The Lib Dem Parliamentary Candidate for North Devon, Kirsten Johnson, claimed that her prospective constituency voted to Leave because “it’s 98% white, we don’t have a lot of ethnic minorities living in North Devon, people aren’t exposed to people from other countries, they don’t travel a lot.”

Johnson went on to claim that that North Devon hasn’t “appreciated the advantages” of being in the EU because it is “isolated, rural, and low income.” She went on to imply that leave voters were linked to hate crime

You have to admit it is a hell of a campaign speech (for Nigel and the Brexit party.) A typical remainer approach though, to insult the brexiteers.

The deluded creature must have the brain capacity of a well anaesthetised amoeba. This is the same bunch that want to revoke article 50 but refuse to have an election in order to gain legitimacy/destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:01 AM

I see Boris is taking his testosterone-fuelled hubris over to Brussels again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

I'm surprised not to see mention of Thursday's Guardian cryptic crossword here, with its embedded message in the top and bottom row of the grid. And some pertinent answers as well.
See it here: Guardian 27,924 cryptic
Of course, it could be that no-one here does the crossword.
If you can't be bothered to solve the crossword just click on 'reveal all' at the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:36 AM

"I see Boris is taking his testosterone-fuelled hubris over to Brussels again..."
GOD HELP US ALL

Hi Nige !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:54 AM

Whether you agree with the sentiment or not, the is a definite cleverness to that crossword. There are already a lot of constraints when creating crosswords - conventions of symmetries for example - so to add in a whole new set of constraints is impressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM

Having just watched yet another depressing bout of news, as much as I detest the idea of Brexit, I'm beginning to think it takes second place to the idea that Johnson and his cretins will survive this farce
These people are dangerously insane
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:02 AM

As soon as I saw Nigel's name I was convinced that he was going to nitpick me over Brussels. It was Luxembourg, not Brussels. There. I've self-nitpicked.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:32 AM

"As soon as I saw Nigel's name"
I was hoping hews going to hang aroud
I doubt if he would be stupid enough to claim that Johnson was elected by or represented any "majority"
Your really couldn't make this stuff up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:38 AM

As predicted, the EU remain unimpressed. The European commission has just put out this statement after the lunchtime meeting.

President Jean-Claude Juncker and Prime Minister Johnson had a working lunch today in Luxembourg. The aim of the meeting was to take stock of the ongoing technical talks between the EU and the UK and to discuss the next steps.

President Juncker recalled that it is the UK’s responsibility to come forward with legally operational solutions that are compatible with the withdrawal agreement. President Juncker underlined the commission’s continued willingness and openness to examine whether such proposals meet the objectives of the backstop. Such proposals have not yet been made...The EU27 remain united.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 10:08 AM

It appears the EU are using Johnson's presence to sum up exactly what Britain's position is on leaving - nothing more
The general consensus is that there is as much of a chance of arriving at a a compromise involving selling out the Irish border as there is Bolton Wanderers winning the World Cup
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 12:05 PM

Concerning the Luxembourg press conference, Michael Deacon of the Telegraph tweeted:

My favourite episode of The Incredible Hulk is the one where a small group of people shouted too loudly so he ran away

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 12:10 PM

Cri de coeur from the prime minister of Luxembourg Xavier Bettel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM

There are no grounds whatsoever for claiming that there is today is a majority in this country for a no deal Brexit, or even for any Brexit.

Even in 2016 people rmerely voted to leave the European Union, that was the only thing on the ballot paper. There was nothing on that ballot paper about any of Theresa May's red lines such as having leaving the custome union or single market, or abolishing freedom of travel, all of which were in existence for years before the EU was established. A simple departure from the EU would have been available with no problems, and wouldn't have meant any problems in Ireland, for example.

And of course the margin of victory in 2016 was far smaller than the number of fresh voters who have joined the electoral roll since then, most of whom are generally accepted even by Brexiteers to be remainers.

And what should settle the argument about what is the "will of the people" is the fact that there is evidently unanimity among Brexiteers that a fresh People's Vote must not be allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

And of course the margin of victory in 2016 was far smaller than the number of fresh voters who have joined the electoral roll since then, most of whom are generally accepted even by Brexiteers to be remainers.

There again, it is also generally accepted that it was (generally) the older generation which voted Brexit. A large number of voters will also have moved into this group (partly made up for by those who have died).

The whole electorate have grown older, so it is not necessarily just the youngest group which has increased in numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:06 AM

"And what should settle the argument about what is the "will of the people" is the fact that there is evidently unanimity among Brexiteers that a fresh People's Vote must not be allowed."

That's right. I think another vote would be close and probably not solve much, but I have a feeling it would mean we'd be staying put. We remainers would then certainly find it infra dig to go bleating on about "the will of the people." The country reflects the position of parliament in that there is no majority for anything. We are in this sorry mess first because we had that referendum in the first place and second because the bar was set way too low for a leave decision. Staying is relatively easy to reverse. Leaving is, in effect, irrevocable. The logic is irrefutable that, in times of uncertainty, the status quo is the safest place to be unless there is the OVERWHELMING and obvious desire for change. There is nothing overwhelming about less-than-52 to more-than-48. There's plenty of skin-of-the-teeth, and, moreover, if I might throw an awkward fact into the mix, 62+% of the electorate did not vote to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:18 AM

Well, Nigel, as the wrinklies drop off the top the sucklings come in at the bottom. That doesn't necessarily maintain the present numbers split unless you assume that the current cohort gradually turns more brexity as they age. Too much has changed since 2016 to make that assumption. Not least, the profile of the UK in the EU has been raised astronomically. Until the referendum, Europe was hardly the most controversial issue on earth, and a sorry litany of Tory leaders has bitten the dust when they tried to make a Big Thing of it (poor William Hague...). Since the referendum, the hyped-up issue has already bagged Cameron and May. We could wish for a hat-trick. Well maybe you're not one of the "we", so perhaps you'd care to defend your current exalted leader for us...

Even after yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM

Boris Johnson walks into a Bank to cash a cheque. As he approaches the cashier he says, "Good morning, Miss, could you please cash this cheque for me?"

Cashier:"It would be my pleasure. Could you please show me your ID?"

Johnson :"Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Boris Johnson, Prime Minister.

Cashier:"Yes, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation, etc., I must insist on seeing ID."

Johnson: Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."

Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr Johnson, but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."

Johnson,"Come on please, I am urging you, please cash this cheque."

Cashier: "Look sir, here is an example of what we can do. One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque."

"Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot where the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque. So, sir, what can you do to prove that it is you and only you?"

*Johnson stands there thinking and thinking and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do. I don't have a clue."*

Cashier: That will do, will that be large or small notes , Mr Johnson?....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

Nigel Farage walked into a bar and says "give me a pint!"
The barman obliges, and pours the pint over his head
"What are you doing?!" asked Farage "I didn't want it over my head!"
"You didn't specify how you wanted it ... as long as you get the pint, this way must be as good as in a glass, right?"
"Well, okay, I want another one ... but this time in a glass"
"Nope ... you only get to ask once."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:09 AM

The Electoral Commission has found that two Remain campaigns that were set up less than a month before the referendum campaign worked together, breaking electoral law.

    “We found that the ‘5 seconds campaign’ was a joint campaign run by WUAV and DDB UK Limited. Spending on the campaign was ‘joint’ or ‘common plan’ spending.”

Wake Up And Vote (WUAV) and DDB were just two of five campaigns that were all set up less than a month before the referendum, sharing big donors, and in total funnelling more than a million pounds into the Remain cause. The others seem to have avoided proper scrutiny…

It has only taken three years! This clearly illustrates the electoral Commission is totally unfit for purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 01:39 PM

OK, I am just getting round to commenting on the Luxembourg recation, where it seems Furious Tories invoke Second World War after Luxembourg leader's Boris Johnson press conference and are going on about Luxembourg trapping the Prime Minister and humiliating him by refusing to move the press conference indoors.


Press conferences don't just happen. Several days beforehand there are exchanges of proposals on how it will be run. I would have hoped there were people on the UK side thoughtful enough to notice:
... he had a very clear heckling background when he gave his press conference in Downing Street
... he was heckled in a walkabout in Doncaster, which made the news
... he was heckled during a speech in Rotherham on 'The Northern Powerhouse'
... there are lots of 'stop the coup' rallies nationwide

- so maybe now, several days before the conference we should ask for the press Q&A to be indoors.
And had they done so, Luxembourg would surely not have insisted it must be outside. To think they would requires a high level of paranoia, in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

To be or not to be ? Proroguing is the question!
an analysis:


http://judicialpowerproject.org.uk/r-miller-v-the-prime-minister-article-ix-prorogation-and-jurisdiction/

The article 9 mentioned above is:
Freedom of speech is guaranteed by article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1689: `freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament'. It is the single most important parliamentary privilege

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:49 PM

Laboour has won the Israeli election wheeeeee
Mabe the fascist tide is on the ebb

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 02:31 AM

Not won - that was the exit poll suggestion
Still too close to call
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

In one of the live feeds is the text of a motion that the MEPs are voting on. Assuming this passes, this is the EU undersanting of what some are calling 'a clean break':

The European parliament ...
Notes that there can be no transition period in the absence of the withdrawal agreement nor any ‘mini-deals’ put in place to help mitigate the disruption of a disorderly withdrawal of the UK from the EU;
Stresses that further negotiations between the EU and the UK after the UK has withdrawn from the EU without a deal can only take place on condition that the UK honours its obligations and commitments in respect of citizens’ rights, the financial settlement and the Good Friday agreement in all its parts;
Notes that in the case of a ‘no-deal exit’, the UK’s financial and other obligations will still exist; affirms that in such a case it will refuse to give consent to any agreement or agreements between the EU and the UK unless and until the UK honours its commitments;
Recalls that, once such commitments are met, future EU-UK relations negotiations will require strong safeguards and level playing field provisions with a view to safeguarding the EU’s internal market and avoiding placing EU firms at a potential unfair competitive disadvantage; reiterates in that respect the conditions set out in its resolution of 14 March 2018 not least as regards ensuring high levels of environmental, employment and consumer protection; notes that any free trade agreement that fails to respect such levels of protection would not be ratified by the European parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM

From the BBC live feed this morning:

=======
BBC Andrew Kerr
?
Final day of Supreme Court hearings into the legality of Parliamentary suspension. A top source from the UK Government said: "we’re stuffed". The other side remain optimistic - thinking it might go their way with 7/4 or 8/3 judge majority in their favour.

=======

The live feeds are interesting, though of course they absorb quite of a lot of time in monitoring. And as you would expect, the argument some Brexiteers have been making about the Bill of Rights has been raised, will be duly considered, and will influence the decision appropriately when it is reached.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:57 AM

Never thought I'd agree with this man -

Sir John Major has compared Boris Johnson to a dishonest estate agent,
saying that he had “ulterior motives” when he prorogued parliament.        
The former Tory prime minister,        whose lawyers will intervene today at the Supreme Court, has said in written submissions that Mr Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament was “unlawful”.
He argued that Mr Johnson’s justification for prorogation to bring forward        a new legislative programme “makes no sense and cannot be the true explanation”.
In a clear suggestion that Mr Johnson should not be believed, Sir John wrote that it would be “artificially naive” for the court to accept the prime minister’s stated reasons for the prorogation.

Talk about thieves falling out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM

Is this the same John Major who 'prorogued' Parliament for 3 weeks (not just 4/5 days) to avoid claims about "Cash for questions"?
Details https://fullfact.org/online/john-major-proroguing/, and is now saying that parliament has not been prorogued in the last 50 years?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:51 PM

Is this the same John Major who 'prorogued' Parliament for 3 weeks (not just 4/5 days) to avoid claims about "Cash for questions"?

Yes, and that was raised and discussed during the Supreme Court hearing. So it will be duly considered by senior judges and taken into account when they make their decision,

But greatly simplifying the argument presented, when John Major prorogued Parliament it made the Government and Parliament accountable to the electorate, whereas this occasion makes the Government less accountable. I am not a lawyer so I am sure that is a crude representation, but no doubt the transcripts will be available in due course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:12 PM

Labour slips to third place in the polls.

Why this bit of information was deleted earlier escapes me. Does a moderator not like the poll result, or simply displaying a bias?


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-election/liberal-democrats-overtake-the-labour-party-in-a-potential-general-election-p

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM

Iains: Maybe it's because your link goes to "Page not found".
Here is the story: Labour now third

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Not sure what that proves Nigel apart from the growing unpopularity of Brexit, given the Lib Dems's decision to kick in into touch without a second referendum
I Don't trust them any more than I do your now self-decimated minority party, but maybe they've found their way to winning the people's hearts your mob are happily losing
Maybe the opinions of those people are less important than the wafer thin majority that squeezed though this now provenly destructive decision

Your dumb and dumbest friend seems totally incapable of working out that THE MODS ON THIS FORUM HAVE NEVER, IN MY EXPERIENCE, DELETED ANYTHING ON POLITICAL GROUNDS - IT'S MORE THAN THEIR JOBS ARE WORTH - WHAT THEY DO DELETE IS THE PERMANENTLY ABUSIVE POSTINGS WHICH SOME PEOPLE SEEM INCAPABLE OF REFRAINING FROM POLLUTING THIS THREAD WITH - MORE POWER TO THEIR ELBOW
He needs to consider himself very lucky he hasn't been kicked out on his abusive arse long ago
Pass it on please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:51 PM

Nigel Farage on what's on offer
If you let it run, it gives views by Tony Benn.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Not sure what that proves Nigel apart from the growing unpopularity of Brexit, given the Lib Dems's decision to kick in into touch without a second referendum

I was not trying to "prove" anything. Just replacing Iain's link with one that actually works.
Some of your colleagues seem to think that I never try to correct anything of Iain's. I have in the past, and I may again. But generally I agree with his viewpoint on Brexit, although we may be in the minority (against a vociferous majority) here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM

By your friends shall we know thee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:03 PM

"I was not trying to "prove" anything"
I didn't suggest you were - I asked what the link preves and as Iain's is obviously incapable of carrying out a conversation without vomiting abuse, I thought you might be able to help
Must say, I have never noticed you either supporting nor criticising Iains - I have suggested on numerous occasions that you and Stanron avoid many of these discussions because you might not wish to be associated with his behaviour - who's to blame you ?
I've also suggested that these threads might benefit from some articulate, intelligent responses from those who support the crazy rabbit hole Britain has fallen into
We are no nearer to getting that than we were at the beginning
For me, Brexit was launched on an immoral and totally undemocratic platform and the longer it has gone on the more immoral and the less democratic it has become
I have enough faith in humanity to believe that not all of those on the right support how Brexit was sold, the damage it has already done to our society, and the further damage it is almost set fair to continue to do
I came here in the hope of sharing agred and contrasting ideas with others - why are we not able to do it on the subject that is going to leave its mark on all out lives ?
Help me out - instead of providing links to meanless non-information, why not tell us what you think ?

For the record - even Boris Johnson's colleagues and supporters believe he deliberately lied about not knowing the press was at the hospital yesterday
on tonight's Questions Time - the lady from The Daily Telegraph said he lied - shouted it even, and the incredibly evasively dishonest legal lady refused to deny he had and spoke about everything other than the questions put to her
Guilt as charged Bozza
I fell deeper in love with Fiona tonight as she nodded vigorously when someone said Johnson couldn't be trusted - wonder if she's married !!

It was a relief that none of them sang as low as the bum wipe Press (and our own own equivalent here) in describing the father of the very ill three month old child as anything but - "the father of a very ill three month child"
Only the lowest scum and shitwaders would have described him as anything else - certainly not a "Labour activist"
Only scum-buckets of the lowest order would sink that low, wouldn't they!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM

The idea that Boris 'lied' about the press is ludicrous. It's a matter of inaccurate definitions. The clue is in the word 'press'. You know, the Gutenberg press. The device that transferred ink from a copper plate or a reverse text composite to paper was a screw thread driven press. It became the default name for newspapers.

Cameras are 'media'. Younger generations than me might think of TV and film as press but I don't. Cameras and TV are newer versions of the press but to me they are not the same.

Johnson has spent a large part of his working life employed by the press. He looked around and saw no journalists. He said there were no press and he was right. He was right because he can tell the difference between text based press and moving visual media. Of course to be able to discern differences requires an ability to discriminate. We all know what Labour thinks about discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM

So the father of the child mistakenly used the wrong word to describe the assembled multitude of photographers? Doesn’t alter the fact of Johnson’s purpose for being there one iota. He was there for a photo-opportunity, to pretend that he’s doing something worthwhile, nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:18 AM

So, Stanron, you believe Boris did not lie but chose chose to play word games with the distraught father of a seriously ill child. How is that any better? Then his supporters, including you presumably, chose to add to the suffering of the same distraught father by slagging him off and saying he was using his child as a political pawn.

Politics has become critically sick itself and Boris is the epitome of that illness. I hope it is terminal and when it passes this incarnation is replaced with something more caring and compadionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM

"The idea that Boris 'lied' about the press is ludicrous."
It was openly admited by the Daily Telegraph woman last night, who, after trying to make excuses for him, shouted over the jeers "OK - he lied, I don't deny it"
The other tory refused to comment but instead, entered into a diatribe about how much money they were spending on The NHS
They are proving over and over again that they care more about their place in Government and the privilege it brings than they do the people who elect them
I watched the original interview on Sky on the night it happened - he lied and he lied stupidly
The interviewee actually pointed to the press camera and Johnson grinned and shrugged - in his lovely oafish way
The whole thing was a disgusting photo-opportunity for him and his few mates - he can't even claim to be acting for his party any more - having sacked the best of them
Instead of preening in front of the cameas, every last one of these people need to be locked in deep discussion tying to dig Britain out ogf the mess their antics has sunk it into - on the instructions of the unelected cummings, he silences the only voice the British people have and ponces off electioneering
Is that reall what you believe Britain's leaders should be doing at a time like this ?

A summary of the trustworthiness of hand-on-heart Johnson
JOHNSON'S HONESTY IN 37 EPISODES

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html

Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

Nigel the first link I posted was by Guido

https://order-order.com/2019/09/19/lib-dems-leapfrog-labour-latest-poll/

Quoting guido seems to upset people, including a politically motivated moderator.
As yet I have seem not one suggestion that Guido's factual content is inaccurate, a charge that the Guardian is guilty of on occasions!

Therefore I will ask all the moderators Why was it deleted?
It was a reference to a respected polling organisation.

We have had very recent postings on clearly Brexit threads commenting on the Israeli elections.

Why are they not deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

I asked what the link preves and as Iain's is obviously incapable of carrying out a conversation without vomiting abuse

Examples please!

What I do is correct many of your more asinine statements. Sometimes this requires pointing out that you are a fool. If you regard that as abuse so be it.
You are not capable of making a post without being both provocative and insulting.

It is the classic definition of trolling.
You are far and away the biggest troublemaker on this site. If not for your folk music 'contributions' your arse would have been grass on this forum years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:00 AM

Examples please!
Try "politically motivated moderator."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM

Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM

Anyway, chaps...

It could be that the ordure will collide with the rapidly-whirring blade at the Labour conference this weekend. The left are going to press Corbyn to campaign all-out for remain. Looked at in the round, his plan to get a deal that keeps us in a customs union (thereby, among other things, eliminating the border issue) and close to the single market seems like a decent compromise, but the stubborn fact remains that that would still not be in the country's best interests. That could only be served by staying in the EU. As we know, no-one on this board or anywhere else has managed, in three years, to tell us how we'd be better off out. If he gets a deal to sign up to, he can hardly then campaign for remain. This has got to be sorted before an election campaign otherwise we're stuffed. What we don't need is a bust-up this weekend. Unfortunately, the left are pretty good at doing that. And I'm one of 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:14 AM

Dave
If he's not going to be shifted for attacking the Mods, he's never going to go
Some of us believe he has been planted to sabotage this forum - his love affair with T.R. suggests who that might be -
His undermining of this forum by attackings its officers adds to that suggestion
I have no more to say on this matter
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:42 AM

I think all the party conferences this year are going to be fairly dramatic. The LibDem ones occasionally have great enthusiasm ("Prepare for Government", Cleggmania) which ends up not getting very far, but the Remove decision is I think in a different league: it could have a major effect. Admittedly splitting the remain vote and letting the Leave groups in by default, but a major effect nevertheless.

As you say, the Labour one will have a great deal to fight about over its Brexit policy statement that will drive the next Manifesto.

And the Tory one … well, let's see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM

"Remove decision"?? Revoke, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:35 PM

We could be in for a major rumpus over Tom Watson. Damn...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM

We could be in for a major rumpus over Tom Watson. Damn...

I would say we are already in one, simply by tabling the matter at the NEC. It is a completely unnecessary battle, naturally. Have the real and significant battle over the Brexit policy, then Tom either falls in line with it, or can be "regretfully stood down" on a matter if principle if he opposes conference's decision. Tabling an NEC motion before the Brexit composite is even written immediately creates charges of manipulation and says the party is vulnerable to internal pressure groups for whom control of the party outweighs any other matter. Red meat for the tabloids...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

Indeed. On Brexit and another referendum I find meself more in agreement with Watson than Corbyn. I think that Labour should uncompromisingly campaign for remain. But Watson has spent several years unfailingly trying to undermine Corbyn. He's a pain in the arse, a disloyal thorn in the side and a bloody lightweight to boot. It speaks highly of the democratic values of the party that he's been allowed to try to damage the leader for so long. But these manoeuvres reek of a car crash. Daft.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

New polling by Ipsos MORI today has revealed Jeremy Corbyn is solidifying his position as the least popular Leader of the Opposition in the history of British politics. No surprise he keeps voting down an election…

At the end of June, Corbyn dropped to the lowest ever LOTO rating with -58 approval, but today he has surpassed even that – dropping a clear four points behind Michael Foot’s personal best. He went on to lead Labour to its worst defeat since before the second world war, granting the Tories a 144 seat majority…

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1175021691124236289

Looks like magic grandpa needs to pull a few rabbits out of the hat!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

Well done, Jeremy. Now let's get on with what Labour conferences should be doing - ripping the bloody Tories to pieces!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:17 AM

"And the Tory one … well, let's see."
I have little doubt that, if he thought he would get away with it Johnson would proroge this year's Tory conference
Why not - he's ripped democracy to shreds everywhere else
REMINDER OF THE LEVEL OF POND LIFE WE ARE DEALING WITH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:26 AM

YET ANOTHER POSSIBLE BREXIT FATALITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

YET ANOTHER POSSIBLE BREXIT FATALITY

As Mandy Rice-Davies eloquently expressed it:

THEY WOULD SAY THAT WOULDN'T THEY?
The true reasons are far more complex, for anyone bothered to search.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:52 AM

Methinkinks Brexit is quite likely to produce a whole batch of DAVID IRVINGS when blaming the people for this crass, self-harming decision wears thin
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

Revealed this morning
Johnson failed to declare his friendship with American model turned consultant when he helped her acquire funding when he was mayor of London
Wonder if discussion on that will be prorogued until after Brexit !!
It's not what you know.... as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:49 AM

Boris overruled the advice of Council Officials to award his pole-dancing friend £126,000 of Londoners hard-earned taxes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:52 AM

Wonder if it was payment for dancing on his pole?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 08:17 AM

"dancing on his pole?"
There's me thinking Brexit was about keeping The Poles out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM

Generally, as I understand it, men with Johnson's level of hubris have very tiny poles. Like boy racers really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 11:42 AM

CHEER YOURSELF UP HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM

The EU chief negotiator pours scorn on the recent attempts by the UK Governments at solutions to the problem of the Irish border issues.

Describing them at unacceptable.

So much for Johnson cautious optimism!!

Could someone please link to the article in today Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:03 PM

This one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

This one sounds more likely to me to be the one referred to

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

Thanks Nigel but it was the one that DMcG linked too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:55 PM

I find it strange that the suggestion that many people didn't really understand what was involved in the choice offered at the referendum is seen as insulting those who voted for Brexit - but that the policy Labour purposes to offer the voters is far too difficult for ordinary people to understand. That's surely a hell of a sight more insulting.

What's difficult about it? Let the people decide whether they prefer a Brexit deal that has offered by the EU or for the UK to remain in the EU and keep working to improve it.
A binding referendum this time, and on a real option, not on a mere slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:20 PM

Though I'm viscerally opposed to referendums, I remember saying months ago, reluctantly, that I couldn't see any other way out of this mess. What's on offer from Labour is reasonable and clear, and it's been Labour policy for months. I'm disappointed that there won't be a concerted campaign to remain and I'd hope that the issue could be dealt with harmoniously. I should like to see Corbyn giving all his MPs, cabinet members included, free rein to campaign as they'd wish. He could say that right now. That would be a bold move and might just help to heal the rifts a little bit. Any instruction from on high to "stay neutral" would be divisive, and would have what few MPs who complied telling fibs about their own sentiments. There would be massive disobedience. I suppose the EU has to stay out of our party politics, but I'd bet they'd be itching to say that Corbyn's ideas for a deal, which keep us in a customs union and close to the single market and which would obviate the need for a backstop or any other of the nonsense we're being peddled about how the Tories would like to handle the border, would be a damn sight better and far more acceptable all round in the EU than anything they've heard so far. It still wouldn't be in the best interests of the country, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:33 PM

Campaign as they wish except for no deal. That would be a mortal sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

Anyone remember that Fox character, back in 2016, telling that huge whopper that the Brexit deal would be “The easiest deal ever”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:44 AM

"Though I'm viscerally opposed to referendums,"
I think this is important Steve
An access to referenda has changed the face of Ireland for the better - they have done what politicians have refused to do, on, pregnancy termination and homosexuality have been most noticable; in both cases they have not only achieved what they set out to do but they have loosened the grip of the Church on Irish politics forever - not bad for a country in the grip of religious fear
I look forward to ones on the rights of women and on the church's ownership of the Irish education system
A referendum can be the nearest working people ever have to a say in their lives - if it is constructed and run and policed responsibly and not allowed to be used to replace democracy with populism, as Brexit has

I think Corbyn is boxing clever in, rather than campaigning to overturn what is deliberately passed off as a democratic exercise, he is playing it by ear
He has to keep all the different facions of the Labour party together if it is ever follow the Socialist dream again
He also has the same contradictory problem that any Socialist has in being asked to support an organisation of Capitalist States on the decline (think about how they manipulated Greek Politics)
The EU is the best on the table at the present time, but that won't remain the case forever
I'm happy to support Europe - 'as the rope supports the hanged man' - for the time being
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:06 AM

What's on offer from Labour is reasonable and clear, and it's been Labour policy for months.

You're avin a laff boy!

1)only a slim majority of current Labour voters (52%) actually understand their own Brexit policy. Is it any wonder the omnishamblic party’s now languishing in third place?..

2)Labour voted for the referendum, and to trigger Article 50. Their manifesto promised to “accept the referendum result”. And they swore repeatedly that they wouldn’t overturn the decision made three years ago, by the many, not the few. Now, Labour’s true colours are showing

3)Banning private schools.It contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights, Protocol 1, Article 2:the right of parents to have their children educated in accordance with their religious and other views, allowing groups to educate children without being impeded by the nation state.

4) As the Independant eloquently states:
“We are committed to legislating for a second referendum within six months. Before that we’re going to go back to Brussels and negotiate a completely new deal in the space of a few weeks even though the last one took years.

“Then we’re going to have a special, one day conference in which the party will decide whether to back its own deal or whether to back Remain in the second referendum.

“But whatever that conference decides, the prime minister Jeremy Corbyn probably isn’t going to take any notice of it. He, the actual prime minister, is going to sit it out entirely. But it won’t just be him. After we’ve had this special, one day conference, nobody in the government will be expected to take any notice of it. They’re going to be free to campaign for whatever they like.”

As I have frequently stated they are the hokey cokey party

This labour fiasco will simply drive supporters to either the Libdems or Brexit party in the coming election and Labour will be destroyed.
Bring it on, I say

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:07 AM

Good old enemies of the people, eh! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:16 AM

It does leave open the possibility of proroguing the Parliament immediately. What poor old Queenie is supposed to do then when the judges said he prorogued specifically to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny is not exactly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:43 AM

I can't see him, in light of this judgement, daring to do it except for just the usual few days for a Queen's Speech. If we actually need one right now, that is...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

But that is exactly what Johnson did, prorogued Parliament for 'just a few days'. The rest of the 5 weeks (often claimed as the length of the prorogation) is just the usual break for the Party conferences.

The UK Parliament site gives details of the normal timings of Parliamentary recesses:
The House has breaks during the year when it doesn’t meet. The precise timings of recesses vary each year and dates are announced by the Leader of the House. The recess calendar lists the published dates.
Even if the dates haven't been announced yet, you can usually work out roughly when they will fall because recesses follow a general pattern (assuming that the State Opening of Parliament is at its normal time in May):
Whitsun recess: a week in late May to early June
Summer recess: late July to early September
Conference recess: Mid-September to early October (accommodating the party conferences)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:07 AM

Nigel. That was all discussed and reviewed in court and the judges have decided you are wrong. Disagree as much as you like, but it has be ruled on and simply repeating the argument that was judged faulty is a waste of effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

If Johnson isn't finished Britain is - he's debased everything it claims to stand for
He should do what Powell did and apply to join the DUP
What a ***** shower
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:42 AM

Nigel, Parliament was prorogued (or not) for five whole weeks. When conferences are going on, parliament is recessed by general consensus, and may be recalled. It was open to Johnson to announce the usual few days' prorogation before the intended date of his Queen's Speech. He chose to do what the Supreme Court has soundly bollocked him for instead. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the difference between a recessed parliament and a prorogued parliament. They are a very long way from being the same thing in constitutional terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:48 AM

Indeed. And the fact the Parliament will.ait tomorrow DURING the conference season is evidence that you cannot simply strike out the conference season as a time Parliament does not sit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:05 AM

I've just heard Johnson, speaking in America, saying that we have to get the UK out on the 31 October "because that is what we are mandated to do." Dunno whether to put that down to mere sloppy talk or a downright extra lie...

No binding referendum, no mandate, no parliamentary consent, no majority, no integrity, no respect for the rule of law...

Why we should ever hold this particular political promise sacred, above all the other broken ones, is anyone's guess... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:12 AM

What sense can there be having a Queen's Speech about the plans for the next session and then promptly having a General Election? That just means treating the Queen's Speech as Party Political Election Broadcast, and that sounds distinctly unconstitutional.

There is a strong case for impeaching Mr Boris Johnson for "high crimes and misdemeanours", with the House of Lords deciding on "the appropriate punishment within the law" - which rules out chopping his head off, as might have been his fate in the old days in the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:37 AM

"because that is what we are mandated to do."
These pricks can't stop themselves lying - this is what they were mandated to do - this year, next year, sometime - and as things have obviously turned out - NEVER
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Don't the Tories here care what their leader continually lies on their behalf ? - Nigel !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 11:09 AM

Under normal circumstances if a minister is found to have acted unlawfully they resign (or are asked to resign)

Is anyone taking bets that Johnson does not such thing.

He said he disagreed with the courts decision.

I suspect that most people found guilty of misdemeanors also disagree with the courts decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

There seems to be some confusion amongst the Brexit-Bunch about the prorogation and the Supreme Court’s decision...

Not right bright are they, these Brexiteers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:49 PM

What these judges have very clearly achieved is the politicisation of the judiciary. This will mean that the higher levels of the judiciary will inevitably follow the American pattern and become political appointments. This is as sure as night follows day. I am not convinced this is such a good idea.The Supreme Court finding has put a distinct twist on the 1688 bill of rights and smacks of judicial interference into the political realm.
This will have consequences yet to be seen. I suspect after the next general election the judicial interference in politics will be stopped in it's tracks by legislation clearly ringfencing what the judges can and cannot do. Similarly the actions of the speaker will be curtailed in such a way that legislation can only be passed with the consent of the ruling party. Parliament already has remedies it is called a general election. As it stands Parliament is in opposition to the people.
This can only be a shortlived affair before the people assert their rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

The barrier in front of politicisation of the Supreme Court is that most of its decisions can be reversed by the executive through the legislature, if it can command a a majority.

It would be perfectly possible to pass a law that would make it legal to prorogue Parliament for any length of time and for any reason. In the same way it would be perfectly possible and perfectly legal to abolish any human rights legislation or sommon law rights. Getting out of the EU would make that a lot easier.

Not having any Constitution does have its dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

A constitution can be dangerous too though. Look at the US second amendment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:14 AM

Back in Charter 88 days, it had a written constitution as an objective. Margaret Thatcher responded with one of her wiser comments "Some of the most oppressive regimes have written constitutions."

Written constitutions have a major flaw: a determined wrecker can find loopholes. With an unwritten one, there is scope for addressing them at the time, as has just occurred.

That doesn't mean we should not have a written constitution, but it is no panacea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:27 PM

Good to see Corbyn is still avoiding the Elephant Trap, even though the Government has built the same obvious trap three times now. It smacks of a lack of imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:27 PM

The irony is that in certain situations the absence of a written constitution can be less dangerous than having one. Our combination of having no written convention, but with Human Rights legislation that has put a limit on the powers of the government. One advantage of EU membership has been that it has guaranteed continued membership of the Council of Europe's Convention of Human Rights Conventional.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:40 PM

One advantage of EU membership has been that it has guaranteed continued membership of the Council of Europe's Convention of Human Rights Conventional.

The statement above seems to pay no heed to the fact that the UK is a signatory to The seven UN treaties :

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights             (ICESCR)
International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD)
Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)
Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment (CAT)
Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC)
Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD)

By ratifying the treaties, the UK has pledged to make sure its domestic laws and policies comply with them. This means the Commission, Parliament and civil society can hold the Government to account against the terms of the treaties.

Formal monitoring of the UK’s treaty obligations is done by the relevant UN treaty body.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:07 AM

According to the BBC Live feed "If Johnson does skip PMQs, that would be seen as a gross courtesy to the Commons."

I am sure there will amend it to 'discourtesy' in a minute or two, but they may have been right first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

Jsonon's behaviour linked to Labour MPs office (friend of Jo Cox) being raided by Brexit criminal screaming "fascist"
Johnson says he deplores violence but refuses to apologise for hs violence inciting language
Nice to see our PMs are still setting a good example
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:32 PM

Jsonon's behaviour linked to Labour MPs office (friend of Jo Cox) being raided by Brexit criminal screaming "fascist"

I think he was a remainiac. The clue is in the name!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 08:18 PM

There would be nothing in the British "constitution" that would make it unlawful to abrogate any treaties. Given an obedient Parliament there are no limits on what a British government can do. So long as the government stays within the law, as appropriately amended if need be, there is nothing the courts could do to stop it.

Where Mr Boris Johnson tripped up was that he did not stay within the law, and hadn't been able to change the law so that it allowed him to do what he wanted to do.

The only thing that in theory could get in the way would be a refusal by the Head of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:08 AM

I was talking recently with a local florist - a one-person business, not part of a huge chain. They are not really interested in politics and don't follow it much, but are desperate for 'this mess' to be over: they do not know what it will cost them to provide tulips for a wedding next year, for example.


For interest, this is what a florist magazine site thinks, which seems to be trying to keep a fairly neutral stance to me.

So what this person wants is for it to be over, and that is more important than anything else. Which is why the 'no deal' rhetoric is so appalling in my view: those proposing that know that gets nothing 'over': it is necessarily the start of long periods of negotiation of new deals, which are, by definition, uncertain in their outcome. But it may deceive some people like this this to think it ends the uncertainties that are damaging their small businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

Absolutely correct, DMcG. I do have to smile when I hear the rhetoric of Johnson and his cronies, when they go on about ‘Getting Brexit over and done’ on 31/10/19. Of course, it will be no such thing - it will be just The Start. The start of years and years of negotiations.

There is no such thing as a ‘No Deal Brexit’ - the deals have to be done? It’s a question of whether they are done pre- or post-Leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 08:53 PM

The only way "to be done with it" would be to abandon the whole Brexit enterprise.

In fact that needn't even involve reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. All we voted for was to leave the European Union. Nothing to do with getting out of the Customs Union or the Single Market, or ending freedom of movement around Europe. Brexiteers have repeatedly said that just leaving the EU without those things wouldn't be Brexit. Fine, no one never voted for "Brexit".

In fact undoubtedly for a lot of people their vote had nothing to do with Europe at all. Voting to Leave was a great way to kick out at David Cameron and the Tory government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 09:10 PM

"Get brexit done" is the latest Cummings mantra. You'll hear it a hundred times a day from here on in.

Great piece by Catherine Bennett in today's Observer (probably on the Guardian website too but I haven't checked) about the Beeb and its vox pops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 11:02 PM

Correct, Steve. During the Referendum campaign in 2016, Every sentence Bozo uttered ended with the vile Cummings’s mantra, “Take Back Control”. Now, every sentence includes, “Get Brexit Done”.

I just wonder why people fall for meaningless slogans. Don’t Brexiteers actually think about what they hear?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:31 PM

Curious article in the Guardian regarding food supplies in the UK and the probably/possible implications of a no-deal Brexit. The final paragraph is particularly telling.

Could someone please provide a link "What Britain Buys and Sells in a Day"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:47 PM

Here is the link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:00 PM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:23 PM

Bizarre comment on Newsnight that the front page of the Times says Johnson wants to ask Brussels to rule out no deal in exchange for a promise from him to get a deal through Parliament.


That makes no sense whatsoever.

1. No one feels inclined to take the PM at his word in the first place.

2. He would be promising something that is not in his remit: Parliament will decide whether a deal is acceptable and he has no majority to ensure they would.

3. No one has actually defined what this deal is.

4. ... and in particular whether it meets the EU requirements.


And one of the Tory panel - because it is at the conference - said he thought it a promising way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

And as I forgot to day, if he can get a deal through Parliamnwt the extension would not be needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:47 PM

I gotta say, thanks, Brits, for trying to make us feel better. It is almost working. -Mrrica

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:12 PM

I must congratulate the parliamentary rebels! They squeal to the courts to recall parliament and since they returned they have simply wasted time acting like escapees from a kindergarten. So much so that the Tories are ignoring them and continuing with their party conference.

The real icing on the cake is the halfwit, tin hat wearing McDonnell wasting even more parliamentary time, with the connivance of the fully rogue Bercow, in allowing him to indulge further in the comprehensively debunked conspiracy theory that the PM is being backed by “speculators who have bet billions on a hard Brexit” – a falsehood pushed by former chancellor Philip Hammond earlier this week.
So impressive is this allegation that Two of McDonnell’s former advisors have now debunked the conspiracy theory – namely James Mills and James Meadway.
I suspect my pet goldfish knows more about currency manipulation than
McDonnell. Someone in Parliament should answer McDonnell and tell him that if hedge funds really wanted to make a fortune shorting the country they would be promoting the Labour Party over Brexit because that would create sure and certain economic calamity. Especially with him in number eleven.

Maybe we will have other urgent questions put before Bercow on other conspiracy theories, including whether the moon is made of cheese, and whether DCMS are aware that Michael Jackson is in fact still alive, or has Elvis really been seen on the moon.........

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:18 PM

As I understand it, he's likely to try to get someone like Orbán to veto any request for an extension as his ploy to crash us out without a deal on 31 October. It would take just one nation to do that veto. I wonder how much the Commission can lean on its national leaders to do the right thing... One thing's for sure. There is nothing even remotely approaching a deal in the pipeline. The EU has already trashed his elaborate pie-in-the-sky nonsense about customs posts away from the border and "technological solutions." Bullshit reigns supreme.

This bloke is going to get away with lying repeatedly to the country, shitting on the legacy of Jo Cox, giving taxpayer bungs to his lover and putting his hand up women's skirts, because the leaver-ignorantes of this country think that these things don't matter, that he's just a characterful Jack-the-lad. If he's still in office in six months' time they'll soon see how much they do matter. Unfortunately, the rational among us won't feel inclined to indulge in schadenfreude.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 08:12 PM

Looking into EU attitudes to this a bit more, it seems very unlikely that any member of the European Council would go so far as to carry out that veto. In fact, the Hungarian foreign minister has already said no. Orbán would have a lot to lose by alienating himself with the other leaders. It's a technical possibility only, and it's not what EU leaders do in any case, decisions generally being arrived at at that level by consensus. And if Johnson were seen to be doing that underhand kind of asking and getting told to shove off, he'd look like an even bigger law-evading dolt than he does now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Johnson wants Brussels to rule out no deal in exchange for a promise from him to get a deal through Parliament.

Overhasty comment on my part there, sorry. What I meant was "Brussels to rule out *an extension* in exchange for a promise from him to get a deal through Parliament, and all my comments were based on what I intended to say, not what I did.

The Times article is now available online.


Even if Johnson brought back the existing Withdrawal Agreement and persuaded all ERGers to swallow their pride and vote for it even with the hated backstop, and added everything Labour had asked for to the political declaration, I do not see how he could swing it, because the declaration is not binding, so he could just drop such declarations whenever he wanted, and no one trusts him not to do that. Perhaps his only hope of getting a majority would be to make it subject to a binding referendum but that could not be held without an extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 04:59 AM

The sands of time are running out! A General Election is just over the horizon, where the electorate will have the chance to dethrone the rebels wholesale and have payback for their constant cheating, mendacity and absolute betrayal of their election manifestos.
There are several here that like to quote Burke. But seemingly they overlook the fact that when he spelt out his position(I go my own way-Bollocks to the Burghers) to the good Burghers of Bristol they lost no time in making his arse grass.
Never again was he elected to Parliament, he was selected to represent Rotten Boroughs.
    This little bit of history encapsulates a "lesson learnt", shortly to be harshly brought home to those MPs so full of hubris that they cannot see.
This will truly be a popcorn moment to savour and enjoy. Democracy will be restored and the people regain their sovereignty!
There seem to be some here argue that Parliament is sovereign.The antics of the treacherous bercow and the rebels patently illustrate the absurdity of such a definition. The only word that describes their most recent activities is a coup.
A coup d'état, also known as a putsch, a golpe de estado, or simply as a coup, means the overthrow of an existing government; typically, this refers to an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a dictator, the military, or a political faction (the remainiacs)

concepts of sovereignty
by Kofi Annan
State sovereignty, in its most basic sense, is being redefined—not least by the forces of globalisation and international co-operation. States are now widely understood to be instruments at the service of their peoples, and not vice versa. At the same time individual sovereignty—by which I mean the fundamental freedom of each individual, enshrined in the charter of the UN and subsequent international treaties—has been enhanced by a renewed and spreading consciousness of individual rights. When we read the charter today, we are more than ever conscious that its aim is to protect individual human beings, not to protect those who abuse them.

Interesting discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 05:37 AM

DMcG, I'd gleaned what you'd intended straight away!

The furore surrounding our charlatan prime minister rages unabated. I rarely listen to Woman's Hour, but the outrage among women over his trivialising of his issues with women clearly isn't going away. Nor should it. Nicky Morgan got it in the neck after her fawning and dismissive attitude on the matter on Newsnight last night (I must say that Emily Maitlis is getting better by the day). On a different tack, I see that Cummings is expecting "to spend the last two weeks of October in court."   Looks like The Party Of Laura Norder is beginning to think that it's one law for them and another for us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 06:31 AM

What a good thing it is, Steve, that there are courageous individuals in Parliament who understand their obligations as MPs - to act in the best interests of the entire nation, not just to bow to the wishes of a small minority of the population, even at the risk of their political careers and personal safety and well-being.

Time will show them to be the heroes of this disastrous, ridiculous Brexit idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 07:03 AM

Duncan Carswell - First elected member of Parliament for
THESE SCUMBUCKETS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM

If someone, anyone, wishes to quote me, that’s fine, I’m perfectly happy to stand by my own words. However, I would request that any quote is of my words in their entirety - selective quotes present a distorted misrepresentation of what my words were intended to convey.

Here’s what I said, in its entirety....

”What a good thing it is, Steve, that there are courageous individuals in Parliament who understand their obligations as MPs - to act in the best interests of the entire nation, not just to bow to the wishes of a small minority of the population, even at the risk of their political careers and personal safety and well-being.

Time will show them to be the heroes of this disastrous, ridiculous Brexit idiocy.”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM

Word is leaking out that Johnson's "new proposals" for Brexit of the Irish Border were put forward to Europe as an idea weeks ago and were so practical as to be forgotten about
They involve an Irish border where there has to be check on both sides, when you arrive and on the others side
They have already been dismissed by both the DUP and the Irish Government as unacceptable
It is suggested that Johnson will 'REVEAL ALL' tomorrow and, when he's satisfied all the Tory ladies, might talk about his Cunning Plan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM

Meanwhile magic grandad is too busy rehearsing his new cover single to do anything useful.


Run, Run, Run, Run, Runaway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:55 AM

Must've missed that, John - we have a fixer onside I presume!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 01:13 PM

Boris says border checks are inevitable on the Irish Border - both sides
He has promised they will geep inconveniences down to a minimum
Good luck with that ***** one, say local businesses on both sides
I hope the E U says the same but on Boris's record of wining friends and influencing people, I very much doubt if even the DUP will support that self-harm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:01 AM

Good to see the political moderation still occurring on Mudcat. Presumably the lefties cannot take the truth about the constant absurdity of their arguments and must be protected.

Meanwhile they can insult with gay abandon.

This is not moderation it is partisanship by a moderator that has no clue about british politics.

What do you hope to achieve by such tactics?
You fool no one by allowing only a complete distortion of reality to be posted by remainiacs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM

Frank Fields has proposed a Parliamentary vote on the latest government proposals, so ai thought I would check whether Parliament voting in favour of his proposal would satisfy the Act started by Benn et al.

No, as I read it. The act says a withdrawal agreement needs to have been concluded with the EU. In law, concluded does not just mean ended, it requires success. So walking away would not count.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM

Benn was on The World At One. He made it crystal clear that the EU has to accept any proposal before it can be put to any sort of meaningful vote in the Commons. I suppose that getting the House to show that it supports the deal might be seen by leavers to be putting pressure on the EU to accept. That won't work. The EU wants see Ireland fully protected and that there is a cast-iron guarantee that there can never be a border any more restrictive than the present one. The proposal fails on these accounts. Two weeks to go, Bozo, then the law of the land will tell you what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 09:26 AM

The European Parliament has said that Johnson's proposals are not even remotely acceptable and that it would veto any attempt to turn them into a deal. So that's that. Boris, you'll be writing that letter. But first, just watch how he spends the next two weeks engineering his way towards making the EU seeming to get all the blame. "Our Friends And Partners in Europe simply don't want to Get Brexit Done..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM

Johnson's entire border proposals are based on 'trust me, I'm a Prime Minister'
Corbyn describes it (accurately) as being "worse than May's")
It is doubtful that the Irish Government will accept it; hopefully the EU will kick it into touch
The now minority DUP have welcomed it - as they would
This is dangerously playing with Irish and British lives for a move that is already flushing the British economy down the pan
The seriously sick patients really are running the asylum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 12:57 PM

It looks like Johnson's "new" proposals are dead in the water. The ERG, the EU and the opposition all seem to ridicule it.

So that's his own side, the legal opposition in the House of Parliament and the people he is supposed to be negotiating with.

It will be very interesting to see how he attempts to circumvent the law on the land in the next two weeks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 01:16 PM

"It looks like Johnson's "new" proposals are dead in the water."
Both Varadkar and the EU executive have indicated that they are prepared to negotiate changes to the proposals
If the bulling mindless homophobic moron who claims to speak for the English people stands is anything to go by - they don't stand a chance
A perfect summing up of English historical arrogant racism
Just what broken Britain needs at present
How long are we going to have to put up with this ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM

we need a different government quickly, a National government but once again the liberals have messed this up

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 04:17 PM

The trouble is, Dick, that all the opposition parties are far too intent on watching their arses and fretting about "how they'll be seen" than worrying about the best interests of the country. Jostling for political advantage, as they see it, is a sickness of our system, unfortunately. The LibDems are the worst of the lot. Swinson has made such vicious attacks on Corbyn in the last couple of weeks that she's burned all her bridges as far as retaining any chance of getting together to defeat Johnson is concerned. It's idiocy. At least the SNP have made overtures of a sort. It used to be the left factions that could never get their acts together. Oddly, the divisions in Labour have been kept pretty well under wraps for a little while. I wish that could spread to opposition parties in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 05:04 PM

I am reading "Invisible Women" which has recently won the Royal Society science book prize. There are many interesting observations, but this one is very relevant to our discussion.. The 70,71,72,73 are references which I have not copied here, but have left as evidence these statements are not just pulled out of the air:

British politicians like to boast (particularly in the run-up to the EU referendum) that the UK offers a 'more generous' maternity leave than the fourteen weeks mandated by the EU’s 1992 Pregnant Workers Directive. 69 This is technically true, but it doesn’t mean that women in the UK get a good deal in comparison to their European counterparts. The average length of paid maternity leave across the EU is twenty-two weeks. 70 This figure hides substantial regional variation in both pay and length. Croatia offers thirty weeks at full pay, compared to the UK’s offering of thirty-nine weeks at an average of 30% pay. In fact a 2017 analysis placed the UK twenty-second out of twenty-four European countries on the length of 'decently paid maternity leave' it offered its female workforce (1.4 months). And now that Britain is leaving the EU, the country is likely to fall even further below its European neighbours. Since 2008, the EU has been trying to extend its maternity-leave ruling to twenty weeks on full pay. This proposal was stuck in stalemate for years, and finally abandoned in 2015 thanks in no small part to the UK and its business lobby, which campaigned strenuously against it. 72 Without the UK, the women of the EU will be free to benefit from this more progressive leave allowance. Meanwhile Martin Callanan (now a Brexit minister) made a speech to the European Parliament in 2012 in which he included the Pregnant Workers Directive in his list of the 'barriers to actually employing people' which 'we could scrap'. 73


Perez, Caroline Criado. Invisible Women (pp. 79-80). Random House. Kindle Edition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 04:07 AM

How long are we going to have to put up with this ?

Howsabout until Samhain!

Interestingly Halloween takes its roots from the Samhain Eve, when it was believed that the link between the worlds of living and dead was at its strongest.

We valiant Brexiteers intend to ensure that bonds between the EU and Great Britain thenceforth are at their weakest.

apposite or wot??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 04:09 AM

I watched Question Time last night with a growing feeling of frustrated anger while the best of the speaker continue to miss the opportunity of pointing out that The Brexit Vote was as far from democratic as you can possibly get
The vote was won using Populisim - by appealing to people's basic fears and prejudices in the way Powell tried to when he was disgraced out of politics
That's what rejected, racist would-be politician did with his hate poster and that is what Johnson is doing now as a career move by an otherwise unelectable leader
It is extremely dangerous to attempt to equate this with democracy - it is exactly the opposite
THat is what needs to be emphasised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 04:57 AM

Rory Stewart to stand down at next election

Yes, he's a Tory who is in favour of many things I disagree with. Nevertheless, I think this is a loss to 'the body politic'. We need thoughtful MPs, even if we disagree with them, not 'rubber stamps'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 05:55 AM

Rory Stewart to stand down at next election
Yes, he's a Tory who is in favour of many things I disagree with.

Ex-Tory, surely.
Even the Guardian and The BBC make that clear when giving the same news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 05:58 AM

"It looks like Johnson's "new" proposals are dead in the water."
Both Varadkar and the EU executive have indicated that they are prepared to negotiate changes to the proposals

Surely not "dead in the water" if, as you say both Varadker & the EU executive are prepared to use them as a basis for negotiation. That is what Boris said when putting them forward.
If they were "dead in the water" then Varadker and the EU would have dismissed them out-of-hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 06:44 AM

I you insist on ex-Tory, fine. I meant it more in terms of values than formal membe4ship, as in his statement:
It’s always difficult to run against your own party. It’s been a painful journey for me. I suppose it was really crystallised when I had the Conservative whip removed.

I’ve been proud to be a member of the Conservative party. There are many values I share with it. I parted company largely over Brexit and the tone of the party

There is a significant proportion of the population that has Tory values and always votes Tory, but has never been a formal member. I think it fair to refer to them as Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

I should add that my purpose in posting about Rory Stewart was less to pass on news than to express my regret, even though I disagree on many things, and to say that losing such people weakens Parliament, in my view. I don't think either the BBC or Sky publicised my regret :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 06:59 AM

I’m in agreement with you, DMcG. I’ve always regarded Rory Stewart as ‘The Decent Face of Conservatism’. They could do with a few more like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM

i'm just listening to radio scotland and hear that according to UK govt lawyers they will apply for an extension if there is no deal by halloween. sounds like a change of policy - but who knows what is going on. rory stewart going for london mayor. that's a shame for him - i'm sure he would be happier wandering around cumbria and the debatable lands. he must be more ambitious than he likes to appear. i wonder if he is hoping to be asked to lead a temporary government = presumably Johnson is about to resign rather than be 'dead in a ditch' before asking for an extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 09:15 AM

I can't see how the current 'No comment' from number 10 can last, given the apparent conflict between what Johnson told the party - and the public - and what he is promising the courts. Steve Baker's comments notwithstanding, the PM is not simply saying he will obey the law by seeking an extension, since the law requires him to ask and accept it in some cases, and in others to bring the length of extension back to the House. The PM might be hoping the EU suggests a different period which would allow him to get it back to the House where he has at least a chance of getting it rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM

"If they were "dead in the water" then Varadker and the EU would have dismissed them out-of-hand."
No they wouldn't Nigel =- neither of them work like that because they can't afford to
The Good Friday Agreement hangs in the balance, which concerns Varadkar very much and Europe isn't the monolithic Bloc that ouy people dishonestly depict it - they can dismiss nothing out of hand without consulting the rest of the twenty off members
Only Britain is acting like a sulky teenager threatening to leave home unless they are given their way
Brexit was decided by asking a people to b=vote on something without being given a game plan for the future or being kept up to date with the possible and now obvious consequences - that is how Populism works
It is equivalent to sending a blindfolded man into a dark room to put a cross on a piece of paper, then holding him to the end result without him being allowed to reconsider
SFA democratic about that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:21 PM

Johnson found to be lying through his teeth again
A document from Downing Street states that if no deal is reached
Johnson will write to the EU and request an extension of the deadline, but he has just tweeted that there will be no delay and Britain will crash out if there is no deal
He appears to be trying to influence the outcome of the court case taking place over obeying The Benn Act - result will be announced early next week
Dominic Grieve has stated that if Johnson refuses to obey the Benn act the Queen will be left with no alternative but to sack him - he would "be gone within five minutes".
Aren't they using The Tower of London for criminals any more - bleedin' shame !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:26 PM

Well, well, well, what a surprise!
"Brexit: Boris Johnson moves to scrap environment safeguards to get deal with Trump"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM

I'm appalled having just escaped the worst of Huricane Lorenzo - Donegal wasn't so lucky)
This seems to be par for the course for dealing with Trump
Hope nobody mentions The Isle of Wight in his presence !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:42 PM

He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM

Liz Truss, the international trade secretary, said scrapping the protections was "vital for giving us the freedom and flexibility to strike new trade deals and become more competitive"

I wonder who will be the first to insist that scrapping the protections is what 17.4 million demanded?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

Brexit was decided by asking a people to b=vote on something without being given a game plan for the future or being kept up to date with the possible and now obvious consequences - that is how Populism works

The referendum was a binary decision. In or out.
It actually has absolutely nothing to do with populism. I explained this carefully earlier today but like so many of my posts it was deleted.
I am not going to waste my time explaining it again.

If Mps think they can can totally ignore their electorate, it is hardly surprising the electorate feel disregarded.
The originator of this novel concept, Burke, found that when he presented the good burghers of Bristol with this outrageous idea they promptly told him to get on his bike.

This will be brought home to a number of MPs with a vengeance when they finally have to succumb to a general election. They will find playing their electorate for fools has only one outcome. As Roddy Stewert would have found out. But he jumped before he was pushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 02:29 PM

That should of course been Rory Stewert, not Rod. It is very bad form to confuse a singer with a clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 03:23 PM

THIS WON BREXIT
THIS WAS THE IMMEDIATE RESULT
THIS WAS THE WARNING
THIS IS HOW IT IS STILL HAPPENING

That was to nobody in particular but it's good to have the opportunity to remind people - lest they forget
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 09:01 AM

it's good to have the opportunity to remind people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn addressed a crowd of thousands of Labour supporters at Newcastle City Hall on Saturday night


No one should read too much into a single event, and these are largely party members, but this suggests claims that Corbyn has been rejected by the voters may be premature.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about that, DMcG. He was written off last time, derided for seven weeks of an election campaign by sneery Tories and almost all the media, was going to hand the Tories a majority 140 seats, etc, then went on to effectively nobble the complacent Theresa May by removing her majority. Europe always takes Tory scalps and I see no reason to think it'll be any different this time.

Interesting Moral Maze on Radio 4 last night. They were discussing for part of the programme the anger surrounding brexit. Well, before the referendum there was no anger about the EU, just the usual low-key rumblings from little-England ne'er-do-wells. All the anger started to be whipped up in a disreputable referendum campaign, thereafter compounded by three years of squabbling after an extremely divisive result. The anger may have been an unintended consequence initially, but brexiteer politicians have not be slow to keep pouring petrol on the flames.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

Been slow

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM

THOUGHT I'D SHARE THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

Best nickname for BoJo. The greased albino piglet :-)

Invented by left wing opponents? No, his Tory colleagues!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM

"Invented by left wing opponents? No, his Tory colleagues!"
Like the female ones who say they wouldn't trust him to drive them home at night
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:34 AM

Things are quiet on the thread at the moment, so here's one way that Johnson could resolve the conflict between obeying the Benn bill and leaving on 31st October.

1. He writes the letter (making plain he is under duress, probably)

2. He persuades the EU to offer any other date for the extension than the default in the bill. Doesn't matter what.

3. Obeying the bill, he has to bring the changed date back for parliamentary approval

4. ..And gets the house to reject that date. Then he is free to 'no-deal' having obeyed the law at all points.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 04:25 AM

https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/xr-bj.gif?resize=540%2C382&ssl=1

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:19 PM

A report in the Guardian gives the EU bullet point dismissal of the Governments "proposals" to solve the issue of the "backstop"

It would seem that the UK governments proposals were written on the back of a fag packet.

Could someone please link to the article "Revealed: the EU's point by point rejection of Johnson's Brexit plan."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

There you go

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM

Thank you Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM

"Jennifer, did you have an affair with Boris?"

"Not tellin'. Ask me something different..."

"Jennifer, did you or did you not have an affair with Boris?"

"Ain't sayin'. Though I did go to his flat five...or was it ten...times..."

Jennifer, it looks like you had an affair with Boris and that it did you no harm (to say the least). Anything to say?"

"It's beneath my dignity to answer..."

.....................................................................................................................

Thing is, Jennifer, you could just have said "no." But you didn't...

"Boris, did you have an affair with Jennifer?"

"Let's talk about schools, the police and the NHS..."


Let's not, Boris. Let's talk about corruption instead...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

Why not talk about brexit?
Attempted Character Assassination of Boris merely increases his support base. What he does in his private life is his affair.
More pathetic ad hominem attacks by remainiacs.
How about giving us a list of benefits of staying in the EU:
1)United states of Europe?
2)Parliament reduced to a franking machine?
3)Repeated referendums,until the right result is obtained e.g. Ireland
4)Attempted territorial claims on northern Ireland and Gibralter
5)A common foreign policy
6)etc.etc

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 07:19 AM

""Boris, did you have an affair with Jennifer?"
This really does ssom to have struck a raw nerve with the Boris Bumcrawlers anxious to sew it under the carpet, doesn't it ?
Lovely cartoon in this morning Times of Herr Johnson's Pole dancer, clinging to his rapidly growing upturned nose as if it is one of her phallic props
Lurvely

Nic to see both of the world's top madman in deep trouble - Boris for paying for sex with Londoners' taxes and Trump having to turn over his tax returns - two for the price of one
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-pole-dancing-pal-20324827
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 07:49 AM

I wonder what part of ad hominem little jimmie cannot understand.
Talk about flogging a dead horse

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM



Unhappy farmers

Two groups that it is often claimed were very pro Brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 09:39 AM

Ah, I screwed up the fishing link. Try again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 10:11 AM

It seems betrayal has become a commy trait of those most ready to use the terms "betrayal" and "traitor" Johnson's Junta ahe happily betraying the fishing and Farming industry in Britain and Trump is selling out the Kurds in Syria
I'm not sure they're not the same individual holding down two jobs

FECKED IF I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:05 PM

Interesting Snippet. A YouGov analysis of 300 surveys shows firm evidence that Britain has turned away from Brexit since 2016 according to a report by Nicholas Cecil in the Evening Standard.

"One of the most striking findings is that 204 out of 226 since July 2017 have shown Remain ahead with just seven for leave and 15 ties."

"So far this year, just one poll has put leave ahead compared with 74 for staying in the EU"

Interesting indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM

Could someone please link to the article in the Evening Standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM

4000 by the way

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 01:08 PM

This 'Evening Standard" article?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM

Sorry - thought I had
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:41 PM

'now that we've seen that appalling leave ad can we all stop being so bloody liberal and having to pretend that they aren't just a bunch of ignorant, racist shits?' - charlie higson. me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

So there'll be more jiggerypokery a week on Saturday in the Commons. Johnson will put forward some motions that he'll lose so that he can then blame everybody but himself for the fiasco. He won't get no-deal through, of course, but there will be no decision for another referendum or revoke either. Too many MPs watching their arses for that. The plotting in Number Ten will be thickening for the next week. It's going to be a long week. One thing that won't be to the fore will be the best interests of the country. Which is, undeniably, to stay in the EU. Let's just remember, during the coming blame game, that there was no groundswell for leaving the EU before that bloody referendum and that the brexit fiasco is one hundred percent a Tory brexit fiasco.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM

That's the one DMcG Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:24 PM

Another interesting comment from the EU Parliament:


Guy Verhofstadt: "I can't understand why there are 20 or so Labour MPs" saying they'll vote for Johnson's proposals "That should be contrary to all the things Labour has defended in the past”. Says that it rips up environmental, social and labour standard protections May’s had.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM

There are further very strong words from Guy Verhofstadt, basically indicating despite Johnson's calling everyone else traitors, collaborators, and surrenderers there is in fact only one traitor and that is the person who risks bringing disaster on the country, it's economy andit's citizens by pushing the UK out of the EU.

Strong words indeed.

Could someone please link to the article in today Guardian " Michael Barmier calls on Boris Johnson to rein in No 10 Aides"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:21 PM

I think the link below on the conniving Bercow is far more important.
He clearly demonstrates he is no longer impartial and should be replaced immediately
(From Guido,of course)

https://order-order.com/2019/10/09/eu-president-bercow-working-block-no-deal/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:47 PM

Guardian
This should be the one Raggytash wants.

Although I do like his typo of "Michael Barmier" for "Michel Barnier"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:10 PM

Care to explain why you like that, Nigel? Tread carefully now...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:28 PM

Why "tread carefully"?
I just liked the idea that the EU politician was being named 'Barmier', or 'more barmy'.
From the Collins dictionary:
Barmy:
Word forms: comparative barmier , superlative barmiest
adjective
If you say that someone or something is barmy, you mean that they are slightly crazy or very foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:31 PM

"Barmy"
ONE OF THE MOST SERIOUS DECISIONS EVER TAKEN BY BRITAIN
WORLD LEADER DENIES WHAT IS IN FRONT OF HIM
Yeah, well!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 08:25 AM

I wonder if Saturday's Parliementary meeting will discuss Johnson's betrayal of the climate change agreement in order to suck up to the madman who is the cause of our now watching the Kurds being murdered because of America's betrayal of their Allies ("because they didn't support us at Normandy")

JOHNSON'S SELL-OUT - OFFICIAL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 12:58 PM

Thank you Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM

I've been considering the report of yesterday that most polls in the past three years indicate that there has been a switch in the population which would now favour remaining in the EU.

If this is correct it would lead me to believe that a minority favour the option of leaving.

Thus in a democratic society we will be allowing a minority to take us to a disasterous future.

If democracy and the will of the people is so important surely we should remain in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:20 PM

That's exactly right. And it's exactly why leavers can't stomach the thought of a confirmatory vote. It's nothing to do with the fictitious "will of the people" or the sham democracy of that referendum in 2016. It's because they know they'd lose. If they thought they'd win, they'd be pushing for it like mad. Brexiteers are either racist, ignorant or feeble-minded. And they are terribly shallow, and they have no idea what democracy actually means. I'm not taking prisoners on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:24 AM

Much talk of the 'pathway'in the papers. Well, I have been wrong before and no doubt will be in the future, but I don't see it. The FT talks of NI staying in the EU, which is indeed a pathway, but how he gets that through Parliament is hard to see. Then there is the fact that Johnson's team have dropped all the agreements about protecting the environment and workers rights, so Labour and the Greens (and others) won't support that.

I suspect it is more blame management than progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:30 AM

To put it another way, Johnson's side got him to present a proposal to the EU they could not possibly accept. I suspect the EU have got him to present a proposal to Parliament they cannot accept.

But if Labour can be cast as the ones refusing to accept it, that suits the PM very nicely, even if a substantial proportion of Conservatives can't accept it either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM

It will be interesting to se which way Varadkar jumps - I hope his efforts are no more than an effort to be fair - but he IS a POLITICIAN and cannot be entirely trusted
Ireland cannot accept anything less than a guarantee there can never be a border - for economic and for peace reasons
Ha cannot accept the promises of a serial liar like Johnson (he has the examples of many other British politicians, past and present for him to know that)
Ireland has been hit just as Britain has, economically and socially, by this death-wish vote - throwing a return of violence into the mix would be a total betrayal of the Irish people - and the Brits who stand to have a repeat of what happened in Glasgow if the Troubles flare up again
We have an National election coming up in the the near future - I hope Leo the Lion doesn't become a 'Leo the Lyin' and forget that
I've noticed that the Irish people tend to give a little more thought to where they put their crosses than their counterparts back home do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:31 AM

Looks like Dyson's electric car might have become
ANOTHER BREXIT CASUALTY
A case of another Brexiteer biting his own bum
Florence Nightingale would have had her hands full with all these walking wounded
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:58 AM

Rupert Read of Extinction Rebellion was excellent on Question Time last night, measured, reasonable and articulate, in complete contrast with the dreadful and disreputable Julia Hartley-Brewer, who appears to be a climate-change denier of the I'm-proud-of-my-pig-ignorance school of non-thought, and the waffly archetypally-smug Toryboy Grant Crapps...oops, Schapps...

(Off-topic but same programme, I must say that Theo Paphitis, who I can't stand, was amazingly honest and balanced on brexit, saying that he wanted the public to have another say in the light of what we've learned in the last three years and saying it in a most forceful and lucid manner. And he was a leaver!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

Electric Cars means Electric Cars! Dyson made a promise in 2016 to build electric cars, and he must deliver on that promise! We don’t care whether it’s ‘economically viable’, we were promised electric cars. Electric cars must be delivered...!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

What on earth are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:09 PM

Nice one, John. The allusion is not lost on me. Nor would it have been lost on arch-capitalist Theo Paphitis last night...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 06:08 PM

My post of 11.58 was moved here by a kind mod, though only half of it actually belongs here. The other half should be in the climate thread (it is now!). Sorry for the confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 09:40 PM

Farages disgusting poster was racist in nature and designed to take root in WELL PREPARED GROUND
Since Brexit, the rise in racism has now reached 58*%
That rise has been directly identified as being LINKED TO BREXIT
TRY YOUR OWN PARTY

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:21 AM

I wonder how many think the rumoured arrangement if NI staying in the customs union without being explicitly asked. If your response involves the fact NI voted remain, consider how Scotland is likely to react.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 05:52 AM

"I wonder how many think the rumoured arrangement if NI staying in the customs union without being explicitly asked"
According to this morning's report the DUP want nothing to do with remaining in The Custom's Union despite yet another enormous bung by Johnson
Northern Ireland voted against leaving, Northern Irish business and farming aer set fair to be hit extremely hard by leaving and it now obvious the people are even more against leaving yet the DUP is (a party which no longer holds an overall majority) is making demands that will bankrupt many Irish businesses
About as democratic as the vote to leave in the first plave, I would say
Madness
THE PUPPET WHO PULLS BRITAIN'S STRINGS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 02:54 AM

According to the Sunday Times "Johnson will offer the three leaders the option to either help him deliver a new deal this week or agree on a 'friendly version' of a no-deal Brexit by 31 October, the newspaper said, citing a source familiar with the conversations."


A friendly version, eh? Sounds like another cake-and-eat-it rephrasing of leaving but getting some of the advantages of staying to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 03:00 AM

”Sounds like another cake-and-eat-it rephrasing of leaving but getting some of the advantages of staying to me.”

Sounds like desperation to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM

Johnson will offer the three leaders the option to either help him deliver a new deal this week or agree on a 'friendly version'

I was also struck by the linguistic structure of that. Compare it with "Johnson will seek agreement on delivering a new deal this week or …"

As expressed, Johnson has all the power. He makes an offer and the implicitly subordinate three leaders have to go along with his choices. That is not the reality of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 03:51 AM

I agree, DMcG. It smacks of ‘begging’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 05:20 AM

The Ulster Unionists have issued a warning of what is likely to happen if Johnson "Shafts Northern Ireland" over Brexit
They say they will not accept an 'economic union' with the South of Ireland in any way, shape or form
One prominent Unionist has been quoted as saying "We'll see how hard the Border is when the bombs start going off in Limerick"
I really think it's time Brits start whingeing about "The intransigent Irish refusing to compromise" and get their heads around what's at stake for all of us in all this
What happened in Glasgow a couple of months should have been warning enough that these nutters mean business
Time for Little England to wake up and smell the coffee, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:15 AM

" start whingeing about"
"stop whingeing" of course
Must stop posting before breakfast
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:42 AM

From The Independent.

When will the Brexit-voters wake up to the fact that this haddock-faced POS and his bunch of liars fucked them over royally?

Never, in the field of human history, were so many shafted straight up the arse by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 11:01 AM

While mysterious, the answer to all things Brexit is alternative arrangements. There will be no unified physics discovered here.
It will all be piecemeal arrangements as each problem is identified and slowly arrangened. It will become a particle zoo of exceptions and special cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 11:27 AM

"Never, in the field of human history, were so many shafted straight up the arse by so few."
Fascinating take on Britain's efforts to "stand on our own two feet"
Britain leaves Europe in order to crawl into Russia's and America's pockets
First, a betrayal of Climate Change measures to please Trump, now laying British democracy open to Russian interference to suck up to Putin - the leader who facilitated the attempted Salisbury assassinations
I hope the UK is looking forward to enjoying its new-found freedom!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 05:41 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:42 AM

From The Independent.

When will the Brexit-voters wake up to the fact that this haddock-faced POS and his bunch of liars fucked them over royally?

Never, in the field of human history, were so many shafted straight up the arse by so few.

Similarly, When will the 'remainers' (the losers of the vote) realise that the 'Brexit voters' are just looking to escape from the control of an unelected (by us) European "super-state"?

And when will the 'remainers' start giving us their own views, rather than just quoting their favoured 'news'paper?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:27 PM

Nigel,

Over the past three and a half years (give or take, I don't want to give you the opportunity for nit-picking) I and many others have consistently stated our opinions and our reasons for holding them.

Not once has anyone on your side of the discussion been able to explain why they held their views. Not once.

There may be good reasons for voting to leave the EU but even after this time I still do not know what they are.

So please tell me how I, and millions of others like me, will benefit.

IF you can do so I may well join you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:41 PM

Raggytash.
Several of us have responded on many occasions. But you, or those who share your views have ignored our responses.

We will benefit by having control of our own fishing grounds (under international rules)
We will benefit by being free to make our own trade treaties with other (non EU) countries
We will benefit by not being required to have import tariffs which are designed to protect the produce of other EU member states.


Even if we see no benefits from the above (But I believe we will), we will have self-determination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:51 PM

By the way, there is no "unelected superstate." The Commission can suggest and promote policy but cannot enact it. Each nation appoints its representative on the Commission. The European Council consists of the ELECTED heads of each of the 28 states. The Council provides political direction but (please listen...) has no legislative powers. The European Parliament is entirely elected by the electorates of the nation states and is the only EU body that can execute legislation. Generally, policy direction and new legislation, including regulations, are routinely arrived at by general consensus. You can't make a superstate out of 28 fiercely independent nations. I advise you in this regard to apprise yourself of the tiny proportions of both nation-state GDPs and nation-state legislation that has anything at all to do with the EU. You'll be disappointed to find that all the nations enjoy an overwhelming amount of independence when that is put alongside the influence of the EU. You've been taken in by talk of bent bananas and duck eggs, like all your rabid brexiteer compatriots. Perhaps you've also been taken in by the denial that out GDP will plummet by between five and seven percent shortly after brexit. Poor you. Poor us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 07:14 PM

By the way, there is no "unelected superstate." The Commission can suggest and promote policy but cannot enact it. Each nation appoints its representative on the Commission. The European Council consists of the ELECTED heads of each of the 28 states.
As has been pointed out before, and you either ignore, or cannot understand.
Although the elected members are the only ones who can vote on whether any proposition becomes EU law, the only ones who can put forward possible new laws are the unelected bureaucrats.
From the EU's own website: Here
Legislative powers

How does the legislative process work?
A Member of the European Parliament, working in one of the parliamentary committees, draws up a report on a proposal for a ‘legislative text’ presented by the European Commission, the only institution empowered to initiate legislation. The parliamentary committee votes on this report and, possibly, amends it. When the text has been revised and adopted in plenary, Parliament has adopted its position. This process is repeated one or more times, depending on the type of procedure and whether or not agreement is reached with the Council.

If the (unelected) Commission are the only body that can put forward legislation then it matters not a lot whether the elected parliament can enact it. The commission can decide exactly what options are put in front of the parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:07 PM

Yes but you see, Nigel, your ideology causes you to fail to attend to the actual nuts and bolts of the thing. As I tried to tell you, the Commission is appointed by all the member states. Member states, all fiercely nationalist, are hardly going to appoint a body that has undemocratic ambitions to override their established procedures and they are not going to appoint a body that they think will assume powers beyond their statutory limitations. You might as well say that the UK is an undemocratic superstate because civil servants draw up and suggest legislation (which they do: the average politico wouldn't have a clue. Like to comment on Cummings, for example..? Embarrassing bit of democratic deficit there, n'est-ce pas? Haven't heard you moaning...). But the obstinate fact remains that neither our civil service nor the European Commission, both appointed bodies, has even the slightest executive powers. We are not the USA. Not by a long chalk. Churchill may have mouthed that ambition, but we are no nearer to it even after seventy-five years. That's a comforting thought to those of us who are reasonably accomplished (it doesn't take much) when it comes to cutting through the lies of the leave brigade. Go on, tell us again about that European army that's about to be forced on us. Or that Turkey's about to join the EU...

What was that again about a European superstate...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:16 PM

Seems this Nigel chap has a great deal in common with Trump, Steve. They are both obsessed with some sort of paranoid "deep state" fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:10 AM

Even If we see no benefits from the above (But I believe we will), we will have self determination

 

For my part, I think this is one of the few things that Leave can really claim as a benefit of leaving, so it bears some examination.

 

Let's begin with a quotation from 'Brave New World':



"All right then," said the savage defiantly, I'm claiming the right to be unhappy."

"Not to mention the right to grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat, the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen tomorrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind."

There was a long silence.

"I claim them all," said the Savage at last.



 

There is an intellectually valid case to claim self determination, even if it means you are a great deal worse off. But having mentioned it, I think we can leave it on one side, because few Leave supporters claim that: the claim is that - in the long run anyway - we will be better off.

 

Then there is the question of whether we are concerned by being constrained to do things we were doing anyway, or not to do things we had no intention of doing. If the EU were to pass a rule that every EU country had to have a nominated capital city, is that something that concerns you, since it would have no effect whatsoever in the real world? Maybe yes, maybe no. For me, not in the slightest.

 

But now let's get away from such abstract discussions and look at the proposition itself: we will have self determination. Who is this 'we', I wonder?

 

In my post of 3 October 19 at 05:04PM, I mentioned that Martin Callanan (one of the people who is now on the committee for exiting the EU) thought we should scrap maternity leave because it was a cost to business that restricted employment. You may agree with him, but for the purposes of this post I will assume you do not. If you do, I am fairly confident you can find some worker's right that you are in favour of which could be substitued - sick pay, maybe.

 

Let me also assume that he able to persuade the cabinet to drop maternity leave as a right.

 

Now, who are the 'we' with self determination? Not the general population, presumably. They would not be consulted. It is certainly not something they voted for in the fabled referendum.

 

You may say - as I am sure the government would - you have the choice to vote them out at the next election and bring in someone who will restore maternity leave. In theory, yes. In practice, that is not likely to be the Conservative who would just have dropped it, and while Labour would certainly say they would restore it, you may feel they would want to do many other things you did not agree with. So a committed Tory who was opposed to dropping maternity benefit would in practice have no choice to support the party proposing it. Where is their 'sef determination' on this matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:11 AM

Now, who are the 'we' with self determination? Not the general population, presumably. They would not be consulted. It is certainly not something they voted for in the fabled referendum.

Whether the general population is consulted or not appears not to matter a damn. We were consulted about our wishes on remaining in the EU and a large proportion of Parliament are doing everything within their power to prevent what was the popular outcome of that vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM

That may be so, Nigel, but I don't think it addresses the example I gave to illustrate why I think "we will have self determination' is not well defined.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM

"We were consulted about our wishes on remaining in the EU"
Without information, that was meaningless, and, as it turned out, highly dangerous - -t was askig people to vote on their instincts and not on their knowledge or intelligence
The results have become glaringly obvious, Britain's economic and social structure have been badly effected, Parliamentary Democracy - the nearest thing ordinary people have to a say in their own lives, has been undermined to the point of destruction and the United Kingdom is facing break-up, with an outbreak of 'The Troubles' an almost forgone conclusion
None of this can possibly described as 'democratic' by the wildest stretch of the imagination
The Referendum was tantamount to asking a blind man to put a cross on a blank piece of paper - the only decent thing now would be to ask him to do it again armed with the knowledge of hat happened last time
I like to think you care enough to respond to this Nigel, but you or any of those who share your desire to leave have failed to do so far
Your silence says everything that needs to be said about the rights and wrongs of Brexit as far as i am concerned
It is totally beyond my comprehension why anybody should wish all this to happen - to the present generation and to the next - in self-imposed silence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM

Without information, that was meaningless, and, as it turned out, highly dangerous - -t was askig people to vote on their instincts and not on their knowledge or intelligence
The results have become glaringly obvious, Britain's economic and social structure have been badly effected, Parliamentary Democracy - the nearest thing ordinary people have to a say in their own lives, has been undermined to the point of destruction and the United Kingdom is facing break-up, with an outbreak of 'The Troubles' an almost forgone conclusion



The referendum was binary- in or out. I would expect anyone voting to have carried out some form of research to sway their voting preference.
It is deeply insulting to presume that anybody who voted did not know what they were voting for. The percentage of those with an IQ below 70 in the population is about 3%. Perhaps their motivation to vote one way or the other is questionable.

You are simply presenting your opinion on events, with nothing to back it up.
My opinion is that you are writing utter nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

We democratically elect our own government. We do not provide seats in the Commons or Lords for foreign appointees. We make all our own domestic law. We are fully masters of our own taxation system and our own justice system. Whatever EU regulations we adopt, we fully agree with almost all of them and would have adopted most of them even had we never been members. About one percent of our GDP is tied up with the EU and 99% isn't. We can trade with anyone in the world, and we do so when it's advantageous to do so. If the EU wants to make major changes that we don't like, we can use our veto.

If we leave the EU our trading relationships all over the world will be different but we will still be able to trade with anyone, subject to their mutual consent of course. We will no longer have to adopt EU laws and regulations but will in most cases continue to do so, in most cases voluntarily but in any case if we wish to continue to trade with them. The EU currently outstrips our next biggest trading partner by a factor of almost three, and I've yet to see a queue of nations rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of increasing their trade with us. I suppose there's still something of a market for Swiss cuckoo clocks. That new-found freedom will coincide with losses of freedoms in other trading relationships as we will have to agree to different standards, often lower ones. Our obligations to NATO and the UN will remain unchanged, but obligations they still are. And the EU will be able to make changes that we don't like, such as founding an EU army, that they can't make while we are members.

As members of the EU we enjoy an equal to or greater degree of self-determination than almost any other nation on Earth. As ex-members we will struggle to find trading relationships as fruitful as our current ones. As such, we will have to make many a compromise if our economy isn't to collapse. If self-determination means freedom to sink, then I advise the little Englanders who constantly make this desperately bogus argument to think again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:49 AM

We are fully masters of our own taxation system and our own justice system
That can be refuted with just six letters: VAT (for the first part) ECJ (for the second).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:59 AM

This seems to be a fair summin up of THE DAMAGE DONE SO FAR AND FUTURE PROSPECTS
A little conservative maybe but I can't see much there to be seriously challenged by an open-minded person
Can't speak for the fanatics and lemmings, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

Little Englanders?
Another one posting and aiming to be as provocative and insulting as possible. This, no doubt, is in order to hide the opinions he is presenting as fact.

The power of veto is going the way of the dodo. Performing an ostrich impersonation does not make this inevitability go away.
unelected bureaucrats frame the legislation, the european parliament votes on it. Majority voting is coming whether you admit it or not.
What happens to your veto when the EU parliament accepts majority voting?
Yesterday they talked about it, tomorrow they implement it and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Next parliament will be disbanded as an anachronism-who needs a second franking machine for legislation formulated and passed elsewhere?
Clearly stated goals:
Common foreign policy
Common taxation
Common defense force
end result federalism.

Time to wake up.
This is no longer a common market- that was merely an early stepping stone. Each successive step signs away more and more sovereignty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:28 AM

As I said fanatics and lemmings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 12:38 PM

Only fanatics and lemmings would follow the direction of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 01:03 PM

Indeed Stanron. They seem to think the way we voted is exemplified by a game of pin the tail on the donkey. Remainers may be lemmings and fanatics but we valiant brexiteers are not so easily banboozled by the EU flim flam. We can see through the propaganda and can envisage the final destination. We want no part of it.
Have you ever seen a rational reason posted for staying in the EU?

Neither have I - They do not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM

"Only fanatics and lemmings would follow the direction of the EU."
The EU works if you realise you are part of a Confederation of nations
Britain has never been good with anything they couldn't dominate and bully
Youhave a few postings up an econamic estimation of wwhat has happened and is likely to happen in the future
That fact that you refuse to even acknowledge, let alone respond to it putsd you were you are in the lemming or what category
Do you really not care beyond reeling out meaningless rhetoric
You respond to less facts than Theresa May did - I really never thought that possible
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 01:35 PM

" We want no part of it."
Seems like your stuck with it until Ireland says otherwise

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM

I am confident the teapot has been told to take a hike!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 02:49 PM

"Only fanatics and lemmings would follow the direction of the EU."
The EU works if you realise you are part of a Confederation of nations
Britain has never been good with anything they couldn't dominate and bully
That last sentence seems to epitomise Germany, not the UK. The UK are the ones who always seem willing (even now) to stand up to the bullies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:11 PM

what! do we ever stand up to the USA, the world's biggest bullies by any measure. we are their poodle. ffs

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM

WEll, Nigel, EU countries are free to set their own rates of VAT, and, after all, we cheerfully embraced its precursor. As for the ECJ, give me a list of domestic legal cases that ever had ECJ judgements that trumped our own courts. Take your time now.

With the ECJ, as well as things like the European Commission, you little Englanders want us all to think that these are somehow foreign and alien forces controlling us. They are not. We have an influential say in how these institutions are formulated and run. As a larger EU nation, possibly more say than most other countries. If you really want to make a case for how these things adversely affect us (and good luck with that) you'd better start confronting us with facts instead of your xenophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:32 PM

Remainiacs speak only of appeasement. No moral fibre or backbone.

Ireland fought for her freedom, we are merely negotiating for ours. Yet they would attempt to hold us to ransom.

Good to see the brexit buster ship Celine still spends most of its time between Immingham and Zeebrugge. Obviously brexit bustin costs more money. Little leo will regret being the EU's useful idiot.

It is anticipated, according to some, that tax harmonization will wipe out 14% of Ireland's GDP. Young leo will not be smirking then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:03 PM

WEll, Nigel, EU countries are free to set their own rates of VAT, and, after all, we cheerfully embraced its precursor.
More utter tosh plucked from thin air.
If we are free to set our own VAT rates we could do away with (or reduce to Nil) the VAT on tampons. This is not a control that we have.
Fortunately that tax is already at the 'reduced rate'(5%).
As far as the 'standard rate' (currently 20% in UK) is concerned.
Under EU law: Each country has a standard rate which applies to most supplies. This cannot be less than 15%.
This can be found on the EU's own website: Here by selecting the down arrow under "Standard rate".

But if you wish, please continue living in your own little imaginary land where facts are thing which shouldn't intrude into your own wishful thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 05:19 PM

Great show of Brexit here Nigel
A pathologically homophobic racist bigot and two tortoises who pop back in their shells whenever someone asks them a challenging question
Any view on the economic report I put up ?
Didn't think so
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:11 PM

Nigel, the fact that we could have VAT at 15% if we wanted, yet set it at 20%, appears to have eluded you. Your complaint is bullshit and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:19 PM

A friend of mine committed suicide yesterday.

She had been depressed for a very long time, but with a good job and somewhere to live, she could hope it might pass.

With her career trashed after every firm that might have employed her driven out of the UK, that hope was gone.

Thank you for being with us as long as you could, Lisa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:36 PM

Christ, Jack, that's terrible. I've been very close to two suicides in my life and I can actually say that I know how you must be feeling. Can't remember where I read it now,
but I read that about two people in five claim that brexit has affected their mental health. I'm not surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:52 AM

A pathologically homophobic racist bigot and two tortoises who pop back in their shells whenever someone asks them a challenging question

Come on moderators. Delete this insulting idiot's ramblings before he terminates yet another thread

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:09 AM

If you choose to use the racist and homophobic language of fascist boot-boys on open forum you should not be surprised iof it gets mentioned in protest
Your attack on other races, cultures and ehnic groups has become a permanent pat of your postings
If you object to it being mentioned stop doing it
Stop posting racist and homophobic terms like "teapot" and bog-trotter, really doesn't get more difficult than that
As for "tortoise" little more than banter and far less insulting than most of what we have had to put up from you for so long
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:48 AM

I had to look ‘teapot’ up. In my 70+ years, I’d never heard it used as a reference to a homosexual man, let alone as a derogatory term for such a person. Having said that, I don’t use any sort of derogatory terms with regard to LGBTQ+ people - I have respect for them as fellow-humans, self-respect, and standards below which I refuse to allow myself to sink.

Probably an indication of the sewers the kind of people who use those kinds of terms inhabit, and which I stay well clear of.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:28 AM

Y'mean like Boris Johnson referring to gay men as tank-topped bum boys...

Still, some people will defend anything...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:34 AM

" I’d never heard it used as a reference to a homosexual man, "
I had to be told what it meant when this homophobe first used it
I have learned since that is has become a popular hate term ever since homosexuality had become recognised as an perfect natural state
Homophobia, like anti-antisemitism has instigated mass murder within my lifetime
I'm not about to let present dat hate-merchants scrawl it over our walls without comment
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:40 AM

"You are homophobic and I'm not!" is not actually a good argument against Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:47 AM

Teapot is simply a play on words of Taoiseach as you very well know. You are simply looking for something to be outraged over so you can vomit your usual bile. I suspect you are the closet homophobe by the way you latch onto the word every time you can.
Homosexuality is not a disease you know. It is something you are born with like the colour of your skin or eyes. With people like you around probably most homosexuals would wish they had been born otherwise, in order to escape the continuing prejudice. Shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:06 AM

"Teapot is simply a play on words of Taoiseach as you very well know"
Teapot is a homosexual trope as you well know
Protests against its use in the past have elicited that fact - it has taken this long for you to drum up this excuse
Immaterial anyway - it is one of several of your regularly used hate phrases - againstr blacks, who you describe as wallowing African Mammals, Travellers who you describe as thieves and Irish who you describe as moronic bog-dwelling killers

"Pathological definition"
"being such to a degree that is extreme, excessive, or markedly abnormal"
Which sums upi your behaviour here
If you object to our drawing attention to your behaviour, I suggest you go and sort yourself out

I suggest we leave this discssion here; we've already given this feller too much 'oxygen of publicity'
Stet
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:34 AM

Sorry to read that, Jack. I have known a few suicides over the years and there are never the right words.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:06 AM

Well, Stanron, maybe not, but you'd have an uphill struggle trying to disconnect the xenophobia and tribalism generated by brexit from rising intolerance with regard to minorities. From HuffPost today. Hate crime has more than doubled in the last six years. Their figures:

"Types of hate crimes 2018/19

Transgender hate crimes – up 37%
Sexual orientation hate crimes – up 25%
Disability hate crimes – up 14%
Race hate crimes – up 11%
Religious hate crimes – up 3%
Of the 8,566 hate crime offences based on religion, just under half (47%) were targeted against Muslims, while 18% were against Jewish people.

Data published on Tuesday showed that 103,379 hate crimes were documented in 2018/19, up from 42,255 in 2012/13.

The new figures also represent a 10% spike compared to the year before.

'While increases in hate crime over the last five years have been mainly driven by improvements in crime recording by the police, there has been spikes in hate crime following certain events such as the EU Referendum and the terrorist attacks in 2017,' a Home Office report said.

Of the hate crimes recorded in 2018/19, more than three-quarters (76%) were related to race.

The number of this type of hate crime recorded last year jumped by 11% to 78,991 offences.

However, the number of offences recorded against people regarding transgender identity saw the biggest spike, rising by 37% to 2,333 offences."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:17 AM

The first four words will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:27 AM

Well, here's another four: you are in denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

”The first four words will do.”

Which translates as, “La-la-la” (with Stan’s hands firmly clasped to his ears). Hardly an intelligent response, either as written, or in translation, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 08:51 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Well, here's another four: you are in denial.

In denial of what though?

I don't deny that there have been hate crimes. The only definite connection between hate crimes and Brexit are chronological. They have happened in the same period of time. You may choose to believe that hate crimes are caused by Brexit but I believe you are fooling yourselves. It's a convenient belief so you conveniently accept it as true. I suspect that proof will be hard to come by.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM

"I don't deny that there have been hate crimes. "
Good
Thoose hate crimes have ben linked to Brexit since people began to ask people "when are you going home" the day after the result was announced
They are now approaching a totally unprecedented rise of 50% - perfectly in line with the gradual disintegration of Parliamentary democracy and the increasing warnings of civil disorder - including those contained in "Yellowhammer"
Jo Cox's murder should have been warning enough of what happened
Farages's poster was a direct appeal to Britain's historical mistrust of foreigners - the same mistrust that Powell used when he was drummed out of politics
Last week's attack on a German Synagogue is an indication that the hare crowds are no longer confining their attacks to Musilims
It's about time you people acted responsibly and look at what your behaviour is doing - to other nationalities as well as British democracy
If you don't smell the toast soon the kitchen will burn down around your ears
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

Barnier has announced that any furhter proposals on Brexit must be submitted today if they are to be considered

Anybody in need of cheering up from all this gloom should look up the funeral of Shay Bradley on line
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 12:34 PM

The home office are making the link, Stanron.

Home Office say Brexit caused hate crime to spike

Do you still deny that the events are unrelated?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:00 PM

I think that's a bit outdated Iains
We have all been told to ignore you like a fart
None of which makes the slightest difference to your continual racist and homophobic behaviour
If you can't behave like an normal human being please stop posting
Your behaviour is getting more and more irrational
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:16 PM

Another meaningless slogan to get the Brexit-Boneheads stirred up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 01:29 PM

"Another meaningless slogan to get the Brexit-Boneheads stirred up."
I suspect there are going to be a few eggy faces at the end of the month
Hope so
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 02:54 PM

The Conservatives appear to planning campaign leaflets With the 'long form' slogan: More delay, more indecision, more confusion. Leaving you and your family to pay the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:11 PM

No proof, just assertations. Here's a quote from one of your 'proofs';

"The Home Office said increases in hate crime over the last five years have been mainly driven by improvements in crime recording by the police".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM

Why the selective quote, Stanron? Why not give us the next line

They said there were "spikes in hate crime following certain events such as the EU Referendum and the terrorist attacks in 2017."

Why not tell us how many leave supporters have been murdered for their views?

Or how many times you have been told to "fuck off back to Poland where you belong"

Or been called a traitor who should be taken out and shot?

Or how many remain posters showed hoards of dodgy dark skinned characters waiting to come and take your jobs?

Maybe then you can tell us that brexit has nothing to do with the increase in hate crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:09 PM

Do you ever actually think about what you are posting? Racism does not exist because of Brexit. There was plenty of racism before 2016. It suits the Left agenda to misinterpret some genuine social concerns as racism and then campaign against it. This in itself can be read as a cause of increased racism.

It's a really clever trick. Exacerbate racism and then blame it on something you oppose. It might fool sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:26 PM

No one has said it did not exist. Nice try Stanron but blatant straw man. Brexit has had a direct bearing on the increase in hate crime. As far as the home office figures are concerned that is factual. You don't believe it. Up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 04:49 PM

That racism existed pre-Brexit is not being contested - it’s a fact that it did exist.

But it is also a fact that the racist nature of the Leave campaign - posters of The Man-Frog pointing at a line of refugees (as it turned out, queueing at the Slovenian border, fuck all to do with the UK), references by the same Man-Frog to ‘70 million Turks waiting to flood into the UK, vans telling foreigners to ‘go home’, demonisation of Eastern Europeans and Muslims - gave the racists, who had previously kept their racism very much in the dark for fear of transgressing the hate-speech laws, a voice, a belief that they now had freedom to express their racist views openly.

That is how Brexit and racist Brexiteers carry the burden of blame for the rapid increase in hate-crimes.

And, of course, the Brexit-Boneheads denying it won’t change the facts one iota.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:13 PM

Elton John seems to have a very low opinion of Brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:45 PM

Well, Stanron, at 07.06am today I gave you a quote that I was honest enough not to edit to my advantage. Since I did that you've said that you wouldn't look at it ("first four words...") and, later, you quoted from it selectively ("The Home Office said increases in hate crime over the last five years have been mainly driven by improvements in crime recording by the police..."), dishonestly failing to continue the quote which referred to the referendum and the terrorist attacks.

I said you were in denial, and all your posts today confirm that. You make things worse by rattling on about "proof," which no-one else is doing. So here's the thing. The referendum leave campaign, cheer-led by the PM you support, dishonestly whipped up xenophobia about EU citizens with a poster promoted by his biggest ally that depicted refugees of colour, not EU jobseekers. His main slogan was about taking back control of our borders, which meant keeping foreigners out. Compounding this, your leave cheerleader has a long history of racism (piccaninnies, watermelon smiles, letterboxes, bank robbers), of homophobia (tank-topped bum boys) and of misogyny (hot totty, tottymeter, pat her on the bum and send her on her way, naturally fickle women, vote Tory and your wife will grow bigger breasts, blubbing blondes). That's your man, Stan. And argue all you like that all that stuff has nothing to do with hate crime. Well he may protest that he doesn't actively support hate crime, and he may be right. But he is the prime minister, and, as such, he is one of the leading setters of the agenda in this country. I can't prove, and don't want to, that his agenda and woeful past history has exacerbated hate crime. But your lament that we can't "prove" it is just laughable.
If the PM of this country serially acts in a thuggish and boorish manner, most sentient beings would conclude that some of that is bound to rub off and steer the whole ethos of the country in the direction of crude philistinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:44 AM

"Racism does not exist because of Brexit. "
Of course it did - it's our legacy from Empire Days
Brexit took what was basically a benign racism and turned ito a POLITICAL WEAPON and we got Brexit
Powell tried the same tactic and it it failed miserably - Britain, for all its faults was a little more decent then
Where Powell failed Farage succeeded
The link between the the sharp rise in racism and the Brexit is no longer seriously disputed - NOT EVEN BY THE TORY DAILY TELEGRAPH
And it's spreading all over the planet - go look at what happened in Germany last week and even at the Bulgarian football match
The scum of our political systems have discovered Racism and Xenophobia as a stairway to the stars - they call it 'Populism'
I can't believe that any decent human being should not be worried sick about what is happening under our noses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:35 AM

"The Home Office said increases in hate crime over the last five years have been mainly driven by improvements in crime recording by the police".
Souldn't you have included the line that followed in order to put it in full contet Stanton Tsk-tsk -
However, it added that there had been "short-term genuine rises in hate crime" following certain events such as the 2016 EU referendum and "part of the increase over the last year may reflect a real rise in hate crimes recorded by the police".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 03:50 AM

Meanwhile does anyone understand the Labour Party position on Brexit?
I suspect a general election in the near future is inevitable and one of the major parties still has no definite stance.
Good news that Antoinette Sandbach not only lost the whip but has also been de selected. Hopefully the first of many. She was elected on a brexit ticket and continually voted against the government. Very pleasant to see her get her comeuppance.
Magic grandads past is catching up with him. During an Emergency Question on Turkey in the Commons, Raab raised the importance of the role of NATO, fairly going on to remind the house about Corbyn’s prominent anti-NATO past. Thornberry began spitting feathers over Raab’s audacity to cite the past stated positions of the Leader of the Labour Party…

(As an aide-memoire for the shadow foreign secretary, her dear leader has in the past claimed NATO was set up to “promote a Cold War with the Soviet Union” and wrote a column for the Morning Star entitled “High time for an End to Nato” )

You could not make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 04:43 AM

Brexit is nothing to do with the Labour Party. It’s a Tory project, begun by the Tories, who steadfastly refused to co-operate with any of the other parties to form a cross-party Brexit team.

No reason for Labour to get involved, the Tories are making a very nice bollocks of their insane project on their own. Which, of course, is why you’re busy trolling in order to draw attention away from the utter disaster the Tories, led by their Unelected Bureaucrat and his poodle-PM, are getting us into.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 05:43 AM

The EU is an organisation of States working under an unequal and gradually failing system, as all countries are
In the opinion of some Labour members, that is not worth supporting, others believe that it is the best on offer at the present time
Given the rise of extremist right wing extremism/violence, I would tend to go along with the latter - for now
The fact that that extremism has been encouraged and even fostered by Brexit, only adds to my qualified support
It needs to be remembered that not all Labour Party members are socialists - yet

The influence of that Extremism has now been spotted in Ireland in the shape of right-wing outside groups honing in and taking advantage of recent (unfortunately successful) protests opposing the opening of Oughterard in County Galway - dangerous and sad at the same time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 05:46 AM

Ignore him, lads. Blank him completely. He doesn't belong in this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 05:48 AM

The biggest poll since the referendum itself, conducted for ITN by ComRes with 26,000 Britons, conclusively shows the public want Brexit sorted, with 54% of respondents saying we should support abiding by the referendum result and leave the EU. Even greater than the original 52:48 split…

From Guido(of course) A complete contrast to the lefty narrative we are constantly subjected to on this forum.
Reality Rules OK!

https://order-order.com/2019/10/16/huge-poll-shows-britons-want-brexit-delivered/#disqus_thread
Tickety tock.

As for saying Brexit is a tory thing, since when was blair a tory?
You do post some rather silly subject matter BWM. Remember this:
Tue 20 Apr 2004 13.30 BST

Mr Blair said: "The electorate should be asked for their opinion.
It is time to resolve once and for all whether this country, Britain, wants to be at the centre and heart of European decision-making."

He concluded: "Let the issue be put - and let the battle be joined."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 05:51 AM

As this is a folk music website, let me just say quickly: Oh, no John no-o John no...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 05:52 AM

I think I missed out a no-John... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

So the DUP is back in talks with Bozo as I type. All the chatter is that they're holding out for a massive extra bung. Should we be surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Ignore him, lads. Blank him completely. He doesn't belong in this discussion.

Obviously cannot construct a valid counter argument! Tick Toc

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:00 AM

The Times's headlines this morning suggests that Johnson is now facing the prospect of a 2020 Brexit -
If "a week is a long time in politics", how long is two months ?
Time to call the Pest Control people in to sort out the vermin, with a bit of luck and hard work

"Ignore him, lads. "
I see no reason for his presence not to be used on occasion to underline the stupid mindlessness of Brexit Steve
It might be different if Brexit had some articulate and intelligent supporters willing to stick their necks out but he'll have to do as a substitute, otherwise we'll all be talking to each other
Think Shirley Valentines' kitchen wall
He even omits quotation marks giving the impression he's talking to himself (or his imaginary friend Guido, of course !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:27 AM

As Victor would say: "I don't believe it!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/636703/Jeremy-Corbyn-Diane-Abbott-affair-1970s-Labour-east-Germany-motorcycle-musical

Perhaps they will resurrect Brian Rix and make it a Whitehall farce.

Mind you they will have to be quite clever to surpass the real life comedy of compo and his clutch of fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: weerover
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:40 AM

Jim, what did you mean by "the opening of Oughterard"? I have been there several times and have played on its golf course and it seemed to be open!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:41 AM

Am I imagining this or have I just heard that Angela Merkel expressed fears about the UK becoming a 'ruthless competitor' to the EU. Not a 'little England' note, a 'ruthless competitor'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:20 AM

weerover posted "Jim, what did you mean by "the opening of Oughterard"? I have been there several times and have played on its golf course and it seemed to be open!"

Galway Advertiser

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:23 AM

A massive anti-Brexit March is to be held in London on Saturday - predicted to be the largest the Capital has ever seen
It will be interesting to see if tat's the case and how it is greeted
Am I right in thinking there have been no significant demonstrations in favour of leaving
Maybe Brexiteers don't cope too well in the open air !!

Are you really never going to put your money where your mouth is Stanron ?
You have yet to respond head on to sa single point head on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM

Am I inmagining things or are remainiac MPs trying to stop the house sitting on Saturday. These are the same zealots that dragged the courts into parliamentary busines in order to reopen parliament so they could spaff away the additional time and accomplish nothing.
It is very clear that our democracy is dead until we have a general election and thin out the knaves.
Brought by courtesy of guido of course:


https://order-order.com/2019/10/16/remainers-may-stop-parliament-sitting-fears-will-pass-deal/#disqus_thread

Twould appear the remainiac Mps postions on the opening and closing of parliament would rival the Kama Sutra

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM

Angela Merkel is quite rightly pointing out that a large economy will be sitting on the EU's doorstep and will be more of a competitor than a partner. She is particularly concerned about the banking sector, which the UK dominates. No-one has ever suggested that the EU won't be hurt by brexit. But she was putting the EU side. She was not focusing on the UK side, which is that we will be hurt by brexit a damn sight more than the EU will. Only hubris-ridden little Englanders who have decided to ignore every economic forecast by every economist are denying that. And even they are a dying breed, I've noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM

It's a bit difficult to fathom where Brexit can go from here
The DUP want no part of anything thet will stop their claim to being British, Varadkar cannot possibly compromise on a border (especially with an election coming up) and America has announced that there will be no pay deal with Britain if the Good Friday Agreement is in any way effected
As an ex- chess player, I'm used to stalemates that onlt involve two sides
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM

Ex chess player! I can see why.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM

What happens about VAT for Northern Ireland will be a bit of a nightmare. As pointed out by many, including Nigel, the UK wants to be free to use a different system. For the sake of a name, let's call it Purchase Tax (PT), though it may differ significantly from the earlier incarnation of that.

So when I sell into the UK, I need to use PT, and when I sell into the EU, I need to use VAT.   And I also have to keep sufficient checks to ensure I do not ever accidentally apply the wrong tax to a product, o I need traceability right through from product, through warehousing and dispatch. Some components in the product may have come from an EU source, and the tax is reclaimable, and some from the UK, where whether there is any ability to reclaim is unknown.

That sounds a lot of bureaucracy added into each and every business, and VAT was always claimed to be heaviliy bureaucratic on its own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM

Just to clarify that a bit: I realise the biggest companies that already trade outside the EU probably have such systems already and it is a relatively small increase in complexity. It is the middle size companies that trade widely but only within the EU that have the step-change in administrative complexity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:25 PM

Adding a few more lines to a spreadsheet is hardly a stepchange in complexity.Even the most mediocre book keeper could accomplish such a task. Each time there is a budget a company has to review it's payroll deductions and revenue liabilities and review the impact on the bottom line. That applies to a one man band or a cast of thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

At the risk of getting told off, of course anyone can add a few rows to a spreadsheet. The complexity comes from the administrative systems you need to obtain the numbers you enter, and be able to prove them to be accurate when the tax inspector arrives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

When in a hole, stop digging!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:42 AM

It appears the DUP have scuppers Johnson's plans for leaving - bless their little Orange Flag (haven't checked the details yet)
Maybe he didn't offer a big enough bung out of taxpayers money this time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

You ould cynic, Jim! ;-)

Yes, God bless Arlene. For now.

(For the record, I believe neither in God nor in Arlene).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:14 AM

"(For the record, I believe neither in God nor in Arlene)."
For the record - neither do I - they can all go to their own chosen hell in a handcart as far as I'm concerned
It's always comforting to see rats at each other's throats rather than yours though
Be careful out there and don't go prodding any trolls while I'm away
That's my job
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM

There are rumours a deal is done! We shall see!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 AM

I see Farage says the new deal "is not Brexit."

That suggests when the next election comes there is a fair change the Brexiteer vote is split, despite Johnson's efforts to get as many as possible of them to back the Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM

I suspect Brexit and Tory will do an under the table deal.
Labour is wandering around in the wilderness with numerous splinters up its arse from fence sitting and the Libdems have clearly demonstrated they give not a fig for democracy by talk of repealing article 50
All in all it should be an interesting election with many more honest politicians on the benches and the treacherous dwarf sent packing.

I detect a little ray of sunshine - let us hope it does not turn into a winter of discontent for the democracy loving brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:35 AM

All that needs to be done is for every EU country to vote yes as well as your Parliment and it is a done deal. Its a chance worth taking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM

Donuel your post demonstrates you know not what you are talking about.
The deal is with the EU( a single body)
Any extension can be thwarted by a single country's veto.
I suggest you learn the distinction before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:46 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg has announced that on Saturday’s sitting, MPs will be presented with a single motion, presenting a choice between Boris’s new negotiated deal and no deal. This will be entirely compliant with the provisions of the Benn Act, as by voting against the deal MPs would have given consent to leaving on the 31st without a deal.
Genius in its simplicity…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM

Rees-Mogg said MPs would then vote either on a motion to back the deal, or on one to approve no deal. He explained:

The debate that follows will be a motion to either approve a deal or to approve a no-deal exit.

That debate on one or other of those motions would run for up to 90 minutes under the existing rules of this House.

=====
So it with EITHER be a motion to accept the deal OR a motion for no deal.

It will not be a motion to choose between them. This is unsurprising because there is no mechanism in Parliamentary votes to choose between alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: weerover
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

The most repeated argument against a "Yes" vote in the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence was that if Scotland went independent it would lose EU membership, and that appeared to persuade many in s close vote. Scots then voted overwhelmingly "Remain" and Brexit would almost certainly result in a majority in Scotland now to favour independence. That would in due course lead to nuclear weapons being removed from Scottish soil, which would be the one positive outcome from this unholy mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:07 PM

I agree that this makes the chances of Scotland voting to leave quite high. But I would only expect them t do that with a strong assurance that they could join the EU. Because there are advantages of doing that within the transition period, it is likely they will try to do that very soon - probably next year.

Let's all look forward to debates about the EU(Scotland) and England border. The proposed solution for NI would not work for Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM

As I just tweeted, yet again - We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the United Nations - no G7 either; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest" http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/walkaboutsverse-84-of-230.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM

The choice is between this deal and not having this deal. "Not having this deal" does not mean no deal. It could mean no brexit. A vote to reject the deal triggers a request for an extension, which will be granted, especially if a tie to a second referendum can be made. No EU nation or body wants us to leave, after all. The intervention by Juncker today was most unwelcome. He's going to have us thinking that unelected bureaucrats such as he can blackmail our sovereign parliament. I'm surprised and disappointed with him. He spoke out of order. He is clearly seeking his legacy. Poor show.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM

NPR 'splained the deal this morning as I was wakee waking.l..
Much of the same as under Theresa except the Irish backstop gone, all Ireland is with EU and there is a customs wall between Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Was this not an obvious choice some time (years) ago? Did Boris make some vital change our contribute some unkempt hair magic that I'm missing? Or was Boris itself the magic addition? That of desperation?

Not to go all Hannah Arendt on y'all, but in this the age of Johnson and Tr-mp are we now to experience the "banality of Democracy"?

Also, it's time to start a new shorter thread....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM

No more threads. The mods don't want any more brexit jobs and I agree. Just click on that little 'd' next to the little blue number. It doesn't matter if the thread is a million messages long if you do that: you get the latest posts straight away.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

It seems that the EU27 have contradicted Juncker and fully left open the option of an extension. As for the DUP, I suspect that their real beef with the customs border in the Irish Sea is the psychological appearance on the tabloid maps to that effect is that is looks just a tad more like a united Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:14 PM

Question Time as I type is just terrible. Two decent women on the panel, three bloody idiots and a mass rabble. It's a stretch, but I'm hanging on to my belief in democracy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 PM

For Brit consideration only: I've watched "Brexitcast" two or three times recently but tonight's programme was a delight. I like Laura and Katya a lot, and they, and Adam Fleming, knock sparks off each other. All these guys are close to "sources" and they give us useful insights with an informal light touch and relaxed neutrality. More, Beeb!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM

Anyway, it's a bad deal. Basically, Theresa May's badly tweaked. It should not be voted in just because of the fear of the beyond. There's a better chance now than ever before for no brexit if those politicians who genuinely have the interests of the country to heart vote the right way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM

An excellent tactic I've seen suggested in HuffPost this morning should the Johnson sellout be rejected by the Commons. Make him write his humiliating letter under the Benn act but continue to deny him his general election. Let the Tories/DUP/ERG stay bogged down for a few more months, giving them time to tear themselves to pieces. Then strike...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM

Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk have both come out strongly in their own sweet ways to assert that the decisions to be made by the UK are ours alone and must not be influenced from outside. I guess that Jean Claude had an off-day yesterday. He's well known for leading with his gob...

Interesting court case in Scotland today. The deal could be illegal. I doubt it somehow but we'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:23 AM

Where we are now negates ben's treacherous bill.(HO HO HO)


A majority of people want the UK to respect the Brexit referendum result, according to a new poll.

The Comres survey revealed today that 54 per cent of people wanted to respect the Brexit referendum result and leave the European Union, with 32 per cent preferring to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

Even an 'Untouchable' backs the Treaty:
The Chairman of the official Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) campaign, Stuart Rose, has come out as the latest supporter of Boris’s new Brexit deal.( A rose among the thorns…)

Speaking to the Today Programme, Rose – who led the designated campaign to Remain in the EU during the referendum – said

    “I think we’ve just got to move on, we’ve got to reflect on the pros and cons, we’ve put aside our differences, we’ve got to lean in and we’ve got to think of the bigger picture and purpose. So I support it…”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Steve - even if the court did find the proposed deal would against the law, I suspect the response would be to change the law rather than the deal. Since the deal has not been formally approved, providing the law was changed first there would be no conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:30 AM

Liberty have lost a bid to have an urgent hearing of its case as the appeal judges accepted the government's case that there was "ample time" for it to be heard before 31st October.

Some comments 'below the line' on media sites are spinning this as if the case itself has been lost, which is not the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 09:35 AM

If this deal passes, we have, on paper, until the end of 2020 to get a trade deal with the EU. But I haven't heard a single source saying that that would be even remotely possible. It's going to take the best part of a year even to draw up a plan. There would be the scope to extend the extension by a year or two to conclude the trade deal, but there is already dark talk among Tory hardliners that it's the end of 2020 or it's nothing. I strongly believe that some of them are seeing this as a path to no-deal. I hope that the Labour leadership are apprising their doubting MPs of this possible direction of travel should enough of them support the deal to get it through. It looks like voting for this deal is the same thing as voting for no-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:06 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiUFPjulTW8

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:04 PM

If that amiable but admittedly sharp buffoon Letwin gets his amendment on the agenda tomorrow (calling for a completion of all legislation surrounding the deal before there can be any approval of the deal), as he definitely should, Johnson will have to write his letter and ask for an extension. It wouldn't be impossible to get it all done before Halloween, but at least it would mean we couldn't "accidentally" (sure...) crash out without a deal.

I'm slightly appalled that a handful of Labour MPs can consider supporting a deal that gives a bloody Tory government free rein to shit all over workers' rights. Firm up, Jezza. Anyone who doesn't vote against must lose the whip.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:33 AM

Rudyard Kipling's "If" tends to get nominated whenever the general public is asked about its favourite poem. One couplet seems quite relevant for today:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

Whatever the outcome, the result will be an 'imposter' - it will be neither as good as its supporters claim, nor as bad as its detractors. It will not settle anything - there are (probably) many years of argument and negotiations to follow, and it will cast a long shadow on the next election whenever it comes, and the Parliament that arises.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM

Interesting times ahead!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 11:35 AM

I am hearing some mistaken analysis on BBC News about the Letwin amendment. What they are missing is that it was an amendment to the text of a bill that was not passed. And therefore it has not entered into law. Yes, it puts the Benn Act into play, but if the speaker allows the bill to be voted on Monday it is a new motion and so unaffected by Letwin. Which means the danger that Letwin was avoiding resurfaces: it would be possible to pass the deal and then not pass the following legislation leading to the no deal drop out on 31 Oct that it was designed to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 12:21 PM

I wonder how much of these events were wargamed by the tame machiavellian Mr Cummings.
It is not over until we hear the abbacus squawking!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM

When I hear the Cummings mantra "take back control" I immediately wonder: "control of what" "take back control when you're 50 meters from the rocks in a leeward gale?" "what control had you before?"

"take back control" = "make America great again"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM

Take back control and give it to Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:46 PM

We have at the helm a man who told us a few short months ago that no Tory government could ever contemplate a customs border in the Irish Sea. He's now hailing his advocacy of that very idea as part of his brilliant deal. He's a liar. And that's why he's suffered today's defeat. He's a liar who can't be trusted on anything. He has to be stopped from bringing about an "accidental" no deal in two weeks' time or a crash-out at the end of 2020 (there's no way in heaven or earth that a trade deal will be clinched by then). We can't trust him not to shit all over workers' rights, a matter over which his deal afforded him a convenient getout. His assurances on that score mean nothing. Why? Because he's a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:10 PM

He has to be stopped from bringing about an "accidental" no deal in two weeks' time or a crash-out at the end of 2020

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song..............!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3CjvyP4ed4

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM

If you don't exactly expect your hallowed prime minister to act like a big kid, just contemplate the fact that Bozza has sent his letter, as required by the law of the land, but refused to sign it...Bwahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM

The second letter is critical, but not for the reasons that may first appear. The fact the Benn Act letter is unsigned would normally cast its legal status into doubt: there is no evidence that the letter came from the PM at all = it could be some junior civil servant who sent it. So it would not, by itself, meet the requirements of the act, I suspect.

However the second letter, which was signed, says he has instructed the letter to be sent. That confirms that the 'Benn letter' is sent by the Prime Minister with the same legal weight as if he had signed it.

There is a key word in phrasing of the Act will, I think, be the crux of the Government's defence when this comes before the courts in the cases scheduled for Monday. It says:

The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019 by sending to the President of the European Council a letter in the form set out in the Schedule to this Act

Notice it says 'by' rather than, for example, 'including but not limited to'.   They will, I think, argue that by sending the letter they have completely discharged their obligation to 'seek', since the 'by' clause defines what 'seek' means.   There opponents will argue that sending an unsigned letter is a clear breach of the intent of the Act, because unsigned documents generally have no legal significance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:23 AM

'Their' opponents, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

Come the end of the month monies are due. Only the government, not parliament, can create legislation with a financial component.
The result of all these games is that Boris gains even more supporters for the inevitable election and parliament is seen to publicly destroy any pretense of being democratic. There will be consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:14 AM

Johnson's letters shenanigans will go down as petty and petulant. The outcome would be the same had he written it on a crisp packet or baked bean tin. Now there's likely to be a court case. Idiot. I see that Labour would back an amendment calling for a referendum. I've given up trying to think what I should be thinking...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Had it been me I would have had the missive printed on a sheet of andrex, despite the reputed shortages created by project fear.
Boris represents what is left of our shattered democracy. The rebellious MPs make us a laughing stock throughout the world but lack the guts to dignify their actions by letting the sovereign vote of the people dictate outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

I actually heard a Brexit-Bumpkin on a Radio 4 vox-pop yesterday say, “The problem is that MPs are voting for what’s best for the whole country, which is wrong - they should be voting for what we [the Brexit-Bumpkins] want”!

Is there no limit to Brexiteers’ mindless moronity?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM

We don't pay MPs to "do what we want." We pay them to apprise themselves of the intricacies of the major issues confronting us and to act accordingly in the country's best interests. If MPs "did what we wanted" we'd likely be sending third-generation descendants of immigrants "back to where they came from," stringing people up, making people in prison sit in dungeon-like cells to eat dry bread, reducing the price of beer to 4d a pint, banning state benefits, banning strikes and bringing back the birch.

When we abolished capital punishment half a century ago I recall that it was said somewhere or other that 84% of the public disagreed. Had we put that to a referendum, "the will of the people" would have dictated that we carried on stringing people up. I dare say that a good number would have agreed to doing it in public and drawing and quartering to boot.

It would be thoroughly unscientific to jump to too many conclusions on listening to those vox pops, but they do indicate that large numbers of people are not apprised of the intricacies of this most major of issues. The referendum asked an ignorant public to make a decision crucial to the future of the country and the campaign failed utterly to provide them effectively with that information. Worse, it provided them with huge amounts of disinformation. The referendum was by far the most extreme example of the dereliction of democracy I've seen in this country in my lifetime. It was also an incredibly stupid thing to do. Next time you hear someone say that it was a "simple" in-out question, or that "the people have spoken," or that parliament should succumb "to the will of the nation," or that "it's been going on long enough and we should just get on with it," just remind yourself that you are talking to an utter pig-ignoramus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM

What a pathetic gesture it was for Johnson not to sign the letter asking for an a extension.

The behaviour of a child, and a belligerent child at that.

I look forward to the result of the case in Edinburgh, I can only hope they find him in contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:04 PM

Despite all the warblings of remainiacs the fact remains that Boris represents the majority. All the nonsense about burke and who MPs represent will be made abundantly clear at the next election. The latest estimates suggest magic grandad will lose a hundred seats.
It will be a joy to behold. The leftie squawking we see here will be shown to the world as the delusions of the minority.
Bring it on I say.
TIC TOC! if nothing else we will be rid of the treacherous dwarf come halloween. With any luck the Aos Sí will take the wretch away to the otherworld.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM

We will hear today whether Bercow will allow a debate to proceed, though most predictions are that he will not.

The 'master strategist' (cough!) Cummings, just like all the rest of us, will have been aware that putting essentially the same motion back to Parliament is against the rules. So when Johnson pulled the vote at the weekend they would both have been aware that there was a very real chance it could not be brought back.

So any anger if Bercow does prohibit the motion will either be confected - it was part of their plan - or demonstrate what we all suspect that there is no plan at all. A goal, yes. A strategy - blame everyone else for everything - yes. A plan - no.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM

Are the Brexit Kamikazists still claiming the "majority" even though all the indications are that they are now a minority and they have never had the decency, courage and sense of democracy to ask the poeople whether that still beelieve this suicidal nonsense
I don't believe it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM

Bercow is a loose cannon abusing his position to thwart the will of the government and the democratic majority.
It is clearly no longer even a pretense of insisting on the right terms for brexit, but simply an all out attempt to frustrate and cancel it.

It has become a battle between the people and a rebellious parliament and no specious arguments advanced here can alter that fact.
17.4 million people voted to leave in June 2016. Our patience is evaporating.
There is no possible argument that can be advanced to legitimize the power grab by rebellious MPs. They betray their electorate and democracy.
They are so uncertain of their standing they cannot even tolerate the thought of an election.
Remainiacs are happy to destroy democracy in order to get their way.
Yet when the inevitable blowback inevitably occurs they will be the first to bleat "not fair"
We have already had a taster with the opinionated ecoloons bringing parts of London to a standstill. The laddie on the tube roof got short shift off commuters. He should be charged with endangering the public by ignoring the HSE working at heights directive.(No method statement, no fall arrest harness or means of attachment, no safety barriers,etc etc)
Be very careful what you wish for. If 17.4 million get riled up enough to insist their vote is respected, there will be consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

What is really odd about this whole debacle is how people are supporting the narcissistic serial liar we now have for a PM. The man has a blatant disregard for parliamentary procedure, the law and democracy, yet he is portrayed as championing all of these. It just goes to show that you can fool some of the people all of the time. Let us just hope that he now has enough rope to hang himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM

It is worse than that, DtG. I was speaking to a guy in the pub last night who asked how the voted went and was horrified when I told him that and that the letters had been sent. He said that "they can't do that" (not defining who 'they' are) and that as a life long Labour voter he could not object to any of the things in the Queens Speech "so would not vote Tory but would vote Boris"


So: we have a chap with an interest in Brexit but not enough to find out the result in some 28 hours. Who is seemingly unaware that Johnson's track record in keeping his promises is not exactly great. Who is presumably aware that the things in the Queen's Speech are again not things the Tories have a good track record on.

And to finish off seems to think he votes for a PM but not a party.

Do I have a lot of confidence in the outcome of a confirmatory referendum? Not really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM

i.m not really too concerned at a national level about a few million frail mail and telegraph-reading pensioners getting their warped and manipulated brexit mania thwarted in the name of 'looking at the detail'. they may get a bit outraged until the next royal baby or cake baking outrage on tv. the even further right group of potentially violent headbangers could remain angry in small parts of the country and they are -as ever- a threat to law and order. a worry where i live. however, at a national level they have no real significance (unless you count throwing plastic chairs around in european mainland squares) tommy robinson got less than 3,000 votes when he stood for election in the north west euro elections. i don't feel they should be taken into consideration - we can't have democracy by threat

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

Excellent comment on the Guardian website under today's live blog:

It seems pretty clear that this withdrawal agreement is flawed to its very foundations. Dangerously imbalanced and unsustainable, splitting the UK into fragments that add up to the *opposite* of the ideal compromise, without any crumbs of comfort for anyone. Northern Ireland given economic favours it doesn’t want. Scotland denied those same economic favours it *does* want. The sensible half of England and Wales shafted from every angle, and the insensible half given poverty and weakness dressed up in the same warmed over empty promises they so eagerly believed three years ago.

If this was an agreement intended for the long term it would almost certainly lead to the eventual collapse of the United Kingdom, but of course it’s not a long term agreement. It comes with a sell by date that falls long before - *years* before - a trade agreement could conceivably be reached, with the default and most likely outcome being no deal. In voting for the agreement MPs only give up the safeguards they have today to stop no deal. They put the right to trigger it in the hands of a man who can’t even be trusted with his own name, and has proved time and again that he can’t be trusted with power.

This week many MPs will be tempted to vote for Johnson’s deal because the nation is exhausted and frustrated, eager to ‘get Brexit done’ provided the many millions who feel otherwise are carefully ignored...

...MPs, be bold, and remember that we sent you there not to bow to the confected rage of the right wing press, nor the threats of the leadership and the bullying whips, nor even to be delegates for our own opinions and anger. You were sent to that place to *represent our interests* to the best of your abilities, to use your judgement and conscience to make the lives and futures of the people you serve better. The impact of your decisions this week will be felt for decades. Only you can decide whether to hurt or help us, and deep down you all know that Brexit can only cause harm. Please, do the right thing.

My sentiments precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM

even though all the indications are that they are now a minority and they have never had the decency, courage and sense of democracy to ask the poeople whether that still beelieve this suicidal nonsense
I don't believe it

My number(17,400,000 to leave was bigger than your number(16,100,000) to remain. That means I am in the majority, you are in the minority.Democracy is to honour the will of the majority. Do you have a problem understanding big numbers? or do you simply like to post arrant nonsense?

An unusual article in the guardian today. It actually makes a kind of sense. "Of the six Labour MPs who rebelled and voted with the government on Saturday, only one, Caroline Flint, is standing again in the next general election. But in her constituency of Don Valley, which she has represented for 22 years, that decision seems unlikely to be a costly one.Explaining her decision, Flint revealed a stark statistic: in the mining villages in this part of South Yorkshire, she wrote in the Sunday Times, 80% of voters backed leave in 2016 (over the whole constituency the figure was 68%). Parliament has not been listening to these people, she wrote: “The voices in our mining villages remain unheard, despite their support for Labour over many decades.”

None of your totally discredited Burke being a berk garbage in this neck of the woods.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/20/she-has-listened-to-us-constituents-back-labour-rebel-caroline-flint

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:03 AM

From a Guardian live news feed:

Scottish judges to continue case into legality of Johnson's letters to Brussels

Guardian Scotland editor Severin Carrellis in court in Edinburgh where Lord Carloway has rejected a call by the UK government to halt proceedings because the prime minister has met his legal requirements under the Benn Act.

The judge said he would continue with the case until it was clear that Downing Street has complied with the act in full – ie. to seek and, if offered, accept a Brexit extension from the EU. A date for the next hearing is yet to be fixed.

======
As I anticipated in earlier posts, the Government lawyers claimed that sending the letter discharged all its legal obligations under the Act. It is clear the court does not agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM

Criticising Brexit to become a ‘Hate Crime’... after the movement gains religious status. ;-)

Well, let’s face it, it bears as much relationship to reality as any other religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM

Cue the fabricated outrage because Bercow has not allowed the MV...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:18 AM

Looks as though our ‘Semen’ Staines/Yaxley-Lennon Fanboy is talking through his rectal sphincter again (so what’s new?)...

Britain has turned against Brexit – biggest ever poll of polls says

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM

I linked to that last week Backwoodsman, unsurprisingly it was met with a wall of silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM

Incidentally shouldn't Johnson be in a ditch by now?

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 01:09 PM

Maybe he is. Heathrow airport would be a good place to start looking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 01:24 PM

Sorry Raggy, I must have missed your post.
But, on the positive side, Good News can’t be repeated to often, can it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

As the polls prior to the referendum managed to be hopelessly wrong, it is a measure of a person's gullibility that they are still swayed by their conclusions.

It is meaningless anyway because the only numbers of significance are those of the brexit referendum. It needs to be pointed out (yet again )that despite all the vacuous postings by remainiacs - they lost and the valiant brexiteers won!
Parliament and the rogue dwarf are in opposition to both the governing party and the people.

What remainiacs are trying to do is deny the democratic will of the majority by way of an attempted coup.
The rebellious MP have less morals than alley cats. They stood for election on the basis of honouring the referendum results. They lied.
Furthermore they lack integrity and the courage of their convictions and do not stand down, in order the electorate be given voice for their choice.

Nothing you can say or do, no arguments you can advance can give even a trace of legitimacy to your actions. As you well know. You boys are doing nowt but blow smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:52 PM

The sheer hypocrisy of those who claim that the "failure" to abide by the "will of the people" (37% lest we forget) is staggering when set beside this government's attempts to bulldoze a bill through in no time at all without the time to scrutinise it in detail and without any kind of assessment of the impact of the agreement on the economy. Talk about sidestepping democracy. Disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:52 PM
As I said, blowing smoke!
That is not very carbon friendly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:42 PM

He tried to bully MPs into agreeing with his bulldozing plan, and found that MPs can't be bullied. God knows where we go from here, but at least democracy is in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 05:29 PM

Where we go is definitely unclear, but there are a few possibilities amongst many others:.

* The bill proceeds and and least one amendment is made to it that is significant enough it has to go back to the EU to see if they agree. And round the houses we go.

* Johnson is offered an extension and as he indicated, he pulls and goes back to the electorate .. As the man with a deal Parliament has said it could potentially approve, but he decided not to proceed with? Not a very comfortable position.

* The EU says no. Very unlikely, but possible. I would expect an SO24 to try to stop no-deal in some way. In extremis, amending the default from no-deal to revoke. It would be unlikely to pass, but it might be tried.

* A no confidence vote, with frantic attempts to form an alternative government. It may be impossible to agree one, but after a fortnight it would be an election, which Johnson is threatening anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:45 PM

He can't go back to the electorate unless MPs let him, with a two-thirds majority. He could try an amendment to get him round the Cameron act, but that might be seen as just another of his little games. The flip side of that is that the opposition are under some pressure to allow an election.

So let's suppose he can wheedle his way to an election. Well I can't see that happening before Christmas, as schools are widely used as polling stations and it would be difficult to disrupt schools just as they're putting on their Christmas activities. An election in the post-Christmas gloom and doom, in the short, cold wet days of January, would be a massive vote-loser, let alone that Christmas would disrupt any election campaign. So it would likely be a spring election. By then, the Tories would have ripped themselves to bits in a vain attempt to stave off the Brexit Party.

I'm dreaming, of course. But in any case I simply can't see Johnson getting an overall majority. Another hung parliament would be my best guess, and we'd be down to who had the largest number of MPs. I've been saying for a couple of years that I can't see brexit happening and I'm sticking to that. Or am I just dreaming again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:27 PM

" but at least democracy is in action."
At least and at last - democracy flew out of the window when Farage's scummy hate poster was allowed by the electoral authorities
There's nothing democratic about allowing scumbags like Farage target the foreigners in our midst to play to the eakest and most irrational fears of the people
The immedite result of that campaign is too well known to need repeating and now it's preading like a dirty miasma Robinson, The Brexit Hate Party, Trump in the US with the backing of the Klan, and the freed" former socialist states
There's signs of a fightback in parts of Europe, but nowhere near enough yet
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 08:37 PM

When I said that, I was saying that parliamentary democracy was at least trying to reassert itself by not cowtowing to right-wing Tory bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:01 AM

Or even kowtowing!

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/kowtow

Sincere apologies for being so weak of character as to allow myself to descend into Nigelist Nitpicking. Dunno wot came over me! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 02:15 AM

The more I reflect on it, the more it appears to me that Parliament approving second reading strengthens the opposition and weakens Johnson. Accidental, I am sure, but that is the effect.

With the exception or referendum or confirmatory vote, every amendment the opposition will bring forward will be to enshrine workers right protections, closer customs union etc: all things that the EU will happily back without further amendment in response. So we are on the route to a much softer Brexit if we continue with the bill. and it will be really difficult to use the "Parliament versus the people" line if Parliament is trying to approve the bill and Johnson is trying to stop them. especially if the Tories have to be fighting against writing protecting workers and environmental rights into the deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM

I dunno, BWM. One Tory leader was a known pig sticker. Perhaps the latest is a cow tower. Whatever that may mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:33 AM

Accidental, I am sure,
From discussions last night, it seems it wasn't
It gives the remainers a chance to call for and organise a confirmation national vote
That's why Johnsong is going to try to rush through a General Election before the end of the year, in the hope of involving the Brexit Party and the Robinsonite mob
The only problem he has is that if Farage decides on making a career in politics after being laughed out, be could split the Pro-Brexit vote
I think there are enough decent, old school Tories who will refuse to serve alongside a fascist like Farage to prevent a Brexit Party/Johnson Junta coalition - I hopse so, but anything can happen in this Brexit induced chaos
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM

Interesting that JRM pointed out to the speaker last night that the latest missive to the EU came from Parliament, not the government. By such Jesus bolts does hang the fate of Nations!

The hilarious point, overlooked by many, is that sooner or later the turkeys will be voting for Christamas.

Their roasting will be a truly popcorn moment while remainiacs will be having a gnashing of teeth and wailing of tears. It will make for fine media watching and will be the swansong of magic grandad.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:04 AM

fascist like Farage to prevent a Brexit Party/Johnson Junta coalition

The usual gratuitous insults hurled around. Would you like a dictionary,
you seem to have a problem understanding certain words?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:52 AM

Two lies completed in one day. I'll take us out do or die by Halloween. Pass the programme notion or I'll pull the deal. These on top of the fact that he isn't dead in a ditch and that we are promised a customs border in the Irish Sea in spite of the fact that no Tory government could contemplate such a thing. So does anyone believe him when he assures us that workers' rights may be safely left to Parliament (presumably with him at the helm is what he's thinking), or that there's no chance of no-deal at the end of 2020?

You may be right about the second reading passing, DMcG. But had it failed, brexit might have been scuppered. I don't think there's much chance of major amendments such as a confirmatory vote or customs union succeeding. In either case he'll just pull the deal anyway. It's disappointing that there were enough Labour rebels to get the second reading through.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:57 AM

Grrr. Of course I know it's kowtow. It was 1.30 in the morning!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:31 AM

@Pets club, cycle club, angling club, stamp collectors club, war gamers club, model rail club, D&D club, etc...
@
You've added Fasist Farage to yout Tommy Robinsion LIKE list then ?
Farage mobilessed the British People aainst foreigners as did the nazis against the Jews
Johnsoon and his junta has now attempted to silence the only voice in their lives - the work of Elected Parliamentary members, by driving a wdge between those elected representatives and those who elected them
He is now presenting democracy as a barrier to what he claims people want - which he refuses to allow them to confirm
That is tantamount to fascism without the fancy boots and black uniforms - placing the wishes of the people below the ambitions of those few at the very top - Mussolini's bundle of sticks to a tee
Gratuitous insults my arseum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Johnsoon and his junta has now attempted to silence the only voice in their lives - the work of Elected Parliamentary members, by driving a wdge between those elected representatives and those who elected them

Oh Dear! all semblance of sanity has evaporated. Nurse! NURSE!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:22 AM

"Oh Dear! all semblance of sanity has evaporated. Nurse! NURSE!"
Your jackboot behaviour towards points you are unable to respond to only serves to underline the mindlessness of the cause you are supporting
Keep it up - you are doing our work for us
HOW ITHERS SEE US
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 09:58 AM

Your jackboot behaviour towards points you are unable to respond to only serves to underline the mindlessness of the cause you are supporting

Whereas yours suggests the need for medication.

The question of the day is will Corbyn be a turkey and vote for Christmas, or continue to duck and dive while losing more and more support. His day of reckoning cannot be delayed for ever. Every stalling tactic he has adopted has come back to bite him in Spades, and his arse!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 10:43 AM

Go to climate thread, read 10.25am post and follow its Sage advice...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 12:45 PM

It would be utterly reckless, considering Johnson's dishonesty, to agree to an election until it is enshrined in law that there can be no no-deal either now or at the end of 2020. There is next to no chance that a trade deal with the EU will be signed off by then, and further extensions to the transition period will definitely be needed. Without a legal assurance that such extensions will be automatic (unless Parliament, not the government, decides otherwise), it would be foolish to allow him his election. Let him wallow. If he tries a bill to sidestep the Fixed-term Parliament Act (another of Cameron's many stupidities), it will be amendable, and he will probably lose control of the election date. Ken Clarke has said it could even be amended to lower the voting age to 16. I have a feeling that Johnson won't try that ploy. He doesn't have a majority to fend off hostile amendments, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:07 PM

It would be utterly reckless, considering Johnson's dishonesty, to agree to an election until it is enshrined in law that there can be no no-deal either now or at the end of 2020. There is next to no chance that a trade deal with the EU will be signed off by then, and further extensions to the transition period will definitely be needed. Without a legal assurance that such extensions will be automatic (unless Parliament, not the government, decides otherwise), it would be foolish to allow him his election.
The logic is somewhat lacking.
If the reason Labour are currently unwilling to have a general election is because they would lose, and the Conservative Party would get a majority then it matters not whether 'the government' or 'parliament' decide not to accept continuing delay. They would be the same thing effectively. Similarly if a law was enshrined that there could be no leaving under WTO terms, an incoming government (if it had a majority) could merely overturn that law. This is the reason that Labour have been running-scared of the election for which they have been so long shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:21 PM

If by running scared you mean doing the doing the sensible thing and waiting until the Tories clean up all the shit of their own making before even attempting to enter the toilet then, yes, I suppose they should change from red to yellow.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:33 PM

It would be utterly reckless, considering Johnson's dishonesty, to agree to an election until it is enshrined in law that there can be no no-deal either now or at the end of 2020. There is next to no chance that a trade deal with the EU will be signed off by then, and further extensions to the transition period will definitely be needed. Without a legal assurance that such extensions will be automatic (unless Parliament, not the government, decides otherwise), it would be foolish to allow him his election.

Even a teacher should be aware that no parliament can bind a future government. This makes your arguments somewhat vacuous and totally lacking in merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:49 PM

If by running scared you mean doing the doing the sensible thing and waiting until the Tories clean up all the shit of their own making before even attempting to enter the toilet then, yes, I suppose they should change from red to yellow.

What short memories you remainiacs have!
wot abaht this from bliar blair? (who needless to say reneged on the deal)

Tue 20 Apr 2004 13.30 BST
Tony Blair confirmed the biggest u-turn of his premiership today, conceding a referendum on the EU constitution and declaring defiantly: "Let the battle be joined."

In a statement to a packed Commons chamber, the prime minister said he would "let the people have the final say"


Ridiculing Mr Blair for his change of heart, the Conservative leader, Michael Howard, welcomed the fact that the prime minister had "at long last seen sense on this issue".

But he demanded to know what had happened to Mr Blair's declaration at the Labour party conference that he "had no reverse gear".

We can see where compo gets his revolving policies from!

Unlike the magnificent"This Lady is not for turning"Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:26 PM

"dead in a ditch"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:30 PM

If only...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:46 PM

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can. The reason why the opposition won't give Johnson his election (apart from the stupid law his fellow Tory Cameron brought in) is that, sensibly, they want no-deal to be guaranteed to not happen. Your man can't be trusted. We want a pledge that there can not be no-deal at the end of 2020. If your man wins an election, that is precisely what he'll do and you know it. Well we're not having it. It is nothing to do with being frit, and if you shed your tribalism for a minute and got honest for a refreshing change you'd admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:47 PM

Similarly if a law was enshrined that there could be no leaving under WTO terms, an incoming government (if it had a majority) could merely overturn that law.

I think that is overlooking the difference between domestic law and international treaties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM

I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations. But at least that has to be done openly in both Houses. That's a lot different from sneaking in no-deal by default. And it's a lot different from accepting promises and reassurances about no-deal from this most dishonest and disreputable of prime ministers. You know, the man who told us this week that MPs had "approved the deal" when all they'd done is approved the second reading of the bill to put the deal into law, not the deal itself, and the man who said there would be no checks on goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and the man who said that the Scottish Parliament has no role in approving the deal...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:04 AM

Some bad tense work there...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can.

Absolute rubbish! Are you trying to say that laws on hanging are still extant, for example?
Perhaps you are confusing laws with treaties, and even they can be subject to cancellation/ revision.
The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT)has not been signed by all countries.(France and Norway for example)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:46 PM
Motions can't bind a future government but laws can

Then:

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM
I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations. But at least that has to be done openly in both Houses.


Is this a record for the time taken to turn through 180 degrees in ones view? The Labour party would be so proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 07:54 AM

The Labour party would be so proud.

As they struggle to count their 100 seat projected loss in a general election.
Magic grandad is a stunner!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 09:00 AM

It would perhaps help if correspondents here read posts more carefully. Nothing I've said has contradicted other things I've said. As I've amply demonstrated here, that's the territory of the prime minister you love so much. Anyone spotted his ample belly up in a ditch yet, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 11:45 AM

Always worth asking a couple of questions when people forget who caused the problem and why Labour are quite right to make the culprits clean up their own mess before we can progress.

Who had an overall majority in parliament when the referendum was called?

Who had an overall majority in parliament when it was decided to ignore that the referendum was only advisory?

Who had an overall majority in parliament when article 50 was approved?

Who had an overall majority in parliament when a general election was called that resulted in a hung parliament?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:25 PM

Who got re elected to Parliament on a leave ticket and ever since have betrayed their constituents?

Why not be honest and ask the questions that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:36 PM

Johnson's Junta is aiming for a General Election of 12th December
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

Aiming for it, but I don't think Labour will give them it. I could be wrong of course.

Johnson's offer is to give time for the second reading, but the price is to vote for GE. Hello? Are you saying if they don't vote for a GE you won't debate the second reading?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM

"Aiming for it, but I don't think Labour will give them it. I could be wrong of course."
A Labour woman said that her party would oppose any election until the Brexit guarantees are confirmed - they will then campaign for another referendum
I'm not sure she was speaking for the Party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:22 PM

junta
a military or political group that rules a country after taking power by force.

Oh Dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

I agree DMcG. Labour should hold until all the shit is firmly on the shoulders of the serial liar known as BoJo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:37 PM

Nothing I've said has contradicted other things I've said.

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can

I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations.

Is Steve Shaw just ignorant of the statements he's making? Or is he just a serial liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM

Nigel, stop buggering about. Laws bind a government until such time as they change the law.

Until that point they are bound by the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

I don't like to be called a liar if you don't mind.

A second request from me to read my posts properly. Perhaps you'll take note of the words surrounding your quoted bit and take them as context. 'Nuff from me on this. Either contribute to the conversation, which you've hardly been doing at all, or just butt out, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM

We can only go by what you say. It is up to you to make sure the words you use say what you mean!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:23 PM

Let's move on here, Raggytash. Let's talk to people who actually have something to say!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:38 PM

Just watching the local news. A Dewsbury councillor's home has been targeted in a firebomb attack. Luckily only the cars were torched and no one was hurt. He is a Labour councillor of Asian ethnicity. Any bets being taken on the motive?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

I don't like to be called a liar if you don't mind.

A second request from me to read my posts properly. Perhaps you'll take note of the words surrounding your quoted bit and take them as context. 'Nuff from me on this. Either contribute to the conversation, which you've hardly been doing at all, or just butt out, Nigel.

I read your comments (as quoted) within the context in which you gave them. They are clearly contradictory.
I did not call you a liar. I asked Is Steve Shaw just ignorant of the statements he's making? Or is he just a serial liar?
I will accept that you're just ignorant, although you have previously admitted to being a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:35 PM

Nigel, when the only arguments you can come up with are on semantics it is obvious that your arsenal is depleted. Everyone else understands what Steve is on about. Your antics are both boring and trite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:59 PM

Thank you, Dave! It seems that you and I I agree that we don't need to bother with either the vexatious or the trolls...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 02:27 AM

"Mr Johnson offered to allow MPs extra time to debate and ratify his Brexit deal by 6 November if they approved the UK’s first December election in almost 100 years. But aides said he would pull the Withdrawal Agreement Bill altogether if they refuse."

Once again, the 'master strategy' is painful in its simplicity. If there is no GE, the Government will pull the bill and so there will be no Brexit debate until - let us suppose - the end of January. Faced with determined inaction, they hope the EU will decide there is no value in another extension and we get to 'no deal'. Not on 31st October, of course, but I am sure Nigel and co will find a way of saying that is compatible with Johnson's promises.

This relies on Parliament being unable to take control again via an SO24 or similar, and that relies on who is Speaker. If Bercow found a way of staying on, there would definitely be SO24s permitted. It is not so clear how the alternatives would behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7611391/Violence-against-MPs-price-worth-paying-way-Brexit-say-majority-sides.html

Patience is evaporating on both sides of the divide.
I blame it on magic grandad, his only policy is prevarication. He does not have a policy on brexit. Even internal labour documents admit he will lose 100 seats in an election.

An election is coming , the turkeys are getting fat
Let's have a voting slip and make remainiacs scat
..............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM

Funny how Corbyn can be worse than useless and manage to destroy the plans of the greased albino piglet at the same time.

I am happy with his plans to negotiate a deal and then put the final decision on its acceptability to the country. Not sure about his moving towards PR. Do we really want a permanent hung parliament with the kind of populist nutters we have seen of late having any say in the real world?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 06:59 AM

Excellent leader in The Guardian. Extracts:

Boris Johnson is the playground bully of British politics. He acts as if he is prime minister with a majority in parliament when in fact he has no majority. Because he cannot govern in that way with parliament, he has tried instead to govern against parliament. The delusion that he can do as he pleases led him to try to prorogue parliament this autumn – a bluff that was called by the supreme court. It then led him to concoct a fantasy legislative agenda by commissioning a Queen’s speech, though none of its measures will ever become law. Now he is trying to make his Brexit withdrawal bill conditional on the Commons agreeing to a general election in December. This proposal, like all the others before it, is merely another bluff, and parliament should duly call it...

...Mr Johnson’s Thursday gambit should not be accepted. There is no pressing need for a general election until parliament has resolved its position on Brexit, if necessary by amending the withdrawal agreement bill. That may be only a few sitting days away. But Mr Johnson has absolutely no right to hold a gun to parliament’s head in the meantime. It is for parliament, as a whole, to make a decision about a general election once the core business of this parliament, Brexit, is completed. That time is not now. MPs should insist on doing first things first.

And Corbyn is the one leader who is insisting that there must be no chance of no-deal before consent is given for an election. The SNP have their own agenda. They want an election now if not sooner because they know that they'll wipe out the Tories in Scotland and that brexit will strengthen their hand in getting an independence referendum. The LibDems want an election because they calculate that they'll get more seats than last time and will probably hold the balance of power. In my view, Labour's position is by far the. OST responsible one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

...the most responsible one. Fat finger syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM

From the Guardian live blog:

"Some MPs have expressed concern that once Parliament has been dissolved, the Prime Minister could postpone the election date until after the end of the Brexit extension period, at which point the UK would leave the EU with nothing MPs could do to prevent it."

I note that the LibDems don't seem as keen on a snap election as I'd said earlier on. The obstinate possibility of no-deal, combined with the utter untrustworthiness of Johnson, is a powerful and sobering mix. His attempt to bully MPs into consenting to an election is utterly pointless. We need a general election, not a brexit election. We won't get that until brexit is resolved one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM

It looks like Johnson is even making some Tories nervous with his dishonest election gambit. From the Guardian (who don't name their source):

An MP from the centre of the parliamentary [Conservative] party said the move was a “smoke and mirrors” trap that was meant to fail and anticipated that Labour would reject an election. However, it could easily backfire with some liberal voters, the MP said.

“This latest move is not intended to be a successful bid for an election. If it was going to be successful, at least 30 of my colleagues would vote against it,” the MP added. “I worry that the public will look at the government and say, 'Why on earth are they farting about and trying to ruin my Christmas with an election when they have just won a vote on the Brexit bill? Where have they found these six weeks for an election when they don’t have time to discuss Brexit legislation?’

“The miscalculation here is that the PM might be popular, but he is not trusted. And this manoeuvre, if the public don’t buy it as genuine, might reinforce the impression that he is sneaky, untrustworthy and too clever by half.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

The latest tactic is to make magic grandad repeatedly refuse an election. It is quite a cunning ruse. Each time he refuses Labour haemorrhages more support from it's heartlands.
Macron is not too happy about yet another extension and conservatives are leading in the polls.
Whenever this impasse is resolved Labour will be eviscerated.

Of course as we come up to the wire we may yet find the Ben act suffers a fatal flaw(after all it was rushed through without any attention to detail) Yet remainiacs argue that after three years they still need time to study the withdrawal treaty(brino)
Will they rue the day and be hoist with their own petard, or do we need another Guy Fawkes? Interesting times!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM

To those deluded people who think that Labour's brexit policy still isn't crystal clear (which it is), get a load of this, all from stressed-out Tories (and from today's Guardian):

"Even Conservative supporters of Johnson remained baffled on Friday by the prime minister’s sudden U-turn on his Brexit deal earlier in the week, when he decided to pause it rather than allow more time to debate the legislation.

One minister told the Guardian that the views among colleagues was 'No 10 has been churlish', while a backbench MP said the strategy emerging from Downing Street was “very confused' and 'out of control'.

Keith Simpson, Conservative MP for Broadland, described the 'floundering in No 10 as worthy of Baldrick in Blackadder', adding: 'The problem is that circumstances beyond [Boris Johnson’s] control and things he has done has made October 31 almost impossible and I think what he’s decided to do – supported by most, but not all of the cabinet – of trying to have a vote on a general election looks as though it’s part of the people versus parliament but I think it’s quite a risky strategy.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:40 AM

AS I think most of you know, I try to read through as many of the relevant documents as I can, rather than base my views on comments from intermediaries. So I am working my way through Johnson's version of the Withdrawal Agreement.

It is not easy, as it is forever referring to other documents, like this:
With regard to nationals of third countries who fulfil the conditions of Regulation (EC) No 859/2003, as well as their family members or survivors within the scope of this Title, the references to Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 in this Title shall be understood as references to Council Regulation (EEC) No 1408/711 and Council Regulation (EEC) No 574/722 respectively. References to specific provisions of Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 shall be understood as references to the corresponding provisions of Regulation (EEC) No 1408/71 and Regulation (EEC) No 574/72

Well, yes, I thought so too …

Anyway, I am far from through it. But it is worth pointing out that Northern Ireland is far from the only place where special considerations apply. It lists :

Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, and Turks and Caicos Islands.


Article 18 - which is as far as I had got before deciding to post this - is talking about the 'Issuance of residence document', which is of course central in many respects: having a right of residence unlocks lots of other rights. This looks to me a Windrush scandal in the making, specifying as it does some of the documents needed to convince the authorities you have a right of residence. For example:


for cases other than those set out in points (k), (l) and (m), the host State shall not require applicants to present supporting documents that go beyond what is strictly necessary and proportionate to provide evidence that the conditions relating to the right of residence under this Title have been fulfilled;

Warm words, but who decides whether requiring a particular document goes beyond 'what is strictly necessary'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM

Anguilla was discussed in Parliament at some length back in early 2017, I think. It has specific problems. There is no airport on the island, so it has 'piggy-backed' off Princess Julianna International Airport, in Sint Maarten, which is in the territory of the Netherlands. It then crosses a border into French Saint Martin. (There is an airport on the French side of the island, in the French Collectivity of Saint Martin, called Aéroport de Grand Case or L'Espérance Airport, but this is used for regional flights.)

From there, goods are transported by ship to Anguilla itself, so it will be crossing a second border.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 02:22 PM

What was all that bollocks about ‘Take Back Control’ the Brexit-Bunch kept waffling on about during the Referendum...??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

There’s a very interesting piece in today’s Guardian, regarding the undermining of our politics by Johnson’s chicanery.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 08:00 AM

Absolute required reading, John. I'd love to see any brexiteer here attempting to dissect that piece and refuting any part of it. As ever, we can expect a different approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM

Sadly if there is rot right at the top it will continue to spread downwards until it is removed. The sooner that Johnson here and Trump over in the States are brought to task over their misdeeds, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM

And a very truthful warning in the Times today from The Archbishop of Canterbury, warning our unelected Prime Minister that his ‘inflammatory language’ is ‘pouring petrol on Britain’s divisions over Brexit’.

Of course he is - ‘divide and rule’ is a long-time tried-and-trusted tactic of the clueless Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 03:02 PM

Tony Blair stuns Remainers after admitting British trade deals will flourish outside EU
FORMER Prime Minister Tony Blair has stunned his fellow Remainers by admitting that the British economy will continue to flourish even after Brexit - and even urging Remainers to "make the best of it".
By Oli Smith (so it must be correct)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 06:53 PM

Well I wouldn't normally recommend that anyone should resort to the far-right Daily Express (way back in the sixties my dad called it the Daily Liar), but Blair is saying we will just have to make the best of it if we do end up leaving the EU, which is, as even that article makes clear, the last thing he wants. He sez that it would be like a top-six Premier League team suddenly being relegated to the Championship (the old Division Two to you non-footie types). Don't be misled. Put a clothes peg on your nose, read the Express piece for yourself and see what Blair ACTUALLY said. Then we can properly talk about it, if we want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:13 AM

This is an example of one of the great falsehoods of Brexit. I must have heard that Remainers do not accept the result of the Referendum a thousand times. But by and large we do. We think it mistaken and if the opportunity did arise we would try to reverse it, but almost all of us accept we are leaving at some time in some fashion. And, as we are patriotic (whether you agree of not), we want to do that with the least damage to the country, its businesses and its citizens as we can. Where we differ most from Brexiteers is how that is achieved. To take the question of workers rights: Johnson's team is reported to be pleased it has removed those from the legally binding section into that part that is not. You get ministers arguing that they have no intention of reducing workers rights and indeed in the Queen's speech proclaimed they would improve them. That is irrelevant. They have made it possible that *some* future government could slash them. Whether they 'intend' to or not is mere sleight of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Incidentally, over on one of the media's Have Your Say areas, a Brexiteer was arguing that if the Government chose to change things so that people had no leave entitlement at all, it should be able to - it was nothing to do with the EU. While I do not agree, there is a refreshing honesty to that that is usually lacking. And is certainly lacking in the Government's stance that such a thing could never come about by any government ever.

(Some may argue that because such a Government would be going against what people wanted. These are by and large the same people saying Parliament is defying their 'will' at the moment)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 04:22 AM

" Blair is saying we will just have to make the best of it"
Blair is a Tory in drag and doesn't speak for anybody but the sell-out has-beens that sold out the Labour Party
Kate Hooey is typical of Blair's sell-out mob - anyone prepared to share a campaign with Reichstagmeister Robinson is unworthy of serious consideration
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM

New word in the Brexit Dictionary (Brixionary maybe?) FLEXTENSION
Wonder if Johnson's chosen which ditch to be found dead in yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

Should have said - the Brexit extension has now been put back to 31st January
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

We should have realised what BoJo was when he was running for PM. The anagram of dead in a ditch is candidate hid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

Interesting that Labour want to give the vote to 16/17 year olds. It would follow on that if adult enough to vote, then also old enough to be tried as an adult, go in a bar, and serve on the front line. Or are there degrees of adulthood?
In a similar vein certain luvvies have been advocating withdrawing the vote from those of 70+ years. That would thin out the ranks of the "righteous" that bombast their way along on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

I don't agree with giving 16/17 year olds the vote. Some of them are level-headed, but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers.
As the school leaving age has been increased they will not be out earning their keep (generally speaking).
Just as American colonists believed in "No taxation without representation" I believe there should be no representation without taxation. (with certain caveats for those who, due to age/infirmity, are unable to work)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 02:24 PM

"but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers."
You mean the teachers can't be trusted ?
Interesting insight to a conservative's view of British education
Roll on the day the Prime Minister can appoint all our teachers eh, Nigel
I thought it was only Communist countries who sought to control the minds of the young (and teh Church, of course)
"curioser and curioser" as Alice was once heard to remark
"not be out earning their keep "
Heah, 'bout time those lazy bastards drawing the dole had the vote taken away too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

Since the 16/17 amendment has not been considered, this is a little academic. But of course there are degrees of adulthood - just look at the age of consent compared to the age where you can get a provisional licence to getting a full licence. Almost every society recognises there is a gradual transition to become a fully developed adult. The exceptions are those where there is some ceremony, often religious in nature, which define crossing from one stage to another.

As for only voting if you pay taxes, I can't think this is a fully developed idea, Nigel. Maybe a gut feel, but let's just take one real life example. My wife is too young to claim state pension, and has not drawn her pension from work, but retired some three years ago. Sounds like you would rule she has no vote. Then let's try a thought experiment. Two people on zero hour contracts earning very little. Jack is under the tax threshold, so no tax, but Jill paid £1 over the entire year, so you are happy for Jill to vote but not Jack? Or do you want to set a threshold - so you have to be rich enough to vote?   

And then why not more votes if you pay more taxes?   After all, the logic seems to be those who contribute taxes are the only ones with a vote, so more votes for more taxes just takes that a step further.

Sounds like you want to get back before the Great Reform Acts in some ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM

Living in the past seems to be a Thing with the Brexit-Bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 03:34 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: Living in the past seems to be a Thing with the Brexit-Bunch.

Since the 'Deal' has now gone through, surely it's the remainers who are living in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:02 PM

" how did they live?""
It's been agreed to in principle - it's a long way from having gone through
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:43 PM

No "deal" has gone through, Stanron. Johnson pulled the further debate on it before it was approved and with the election all incomplete bills fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 05:35 PM

So Corbyn and his fellow turkeys have finally voted for christmas.
This will go down in history as the great cull. Will Labour be both roasted and basted? They obviously do not require the provision of a rotisserie - they are well used to spinning!
All we need now is the Lords to attempt to frustrate the election by attaching further amendments. Boris will have a busy time ahead!
If I had my way I would:
increase the voting age to 25
Ban postal votes to all but the infirm, service personnel and students.
Students voting in university towns skew the vote.
I would insist they vote only in their home constituency.
I would also insist that those wishing to vote provide ID to be checked against the electoral roll before being allowed to. participate
Provision of foreign observers to ensure no voting irregularities.

Has anyone informed Putin so he can arrange interference?

Another bit of superb news is that 47 of the swamp rats are standing down including the squeaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 03:19 AM

since all the most experienced election analysts ar ed saying this is the most unpredictable election ever, I am not foolhardy enough to give a detailed prediction. But at a broad level Johnson will do well if he can keep the focus on Brexit and fight off both Farage and the consequences of all the hostages to fortune quotes he, Patel and Raab have made in the last few years. The other parties will not forget about the WAB either and could pull some tricky stuff out of that. But, as I say, keep it on Brexit and avoid the detail and Johnson will do well.

Get onto all the other things in life and the problems for them become apparent. The simplest rejoinder to all the wonderful things promises in the Queen's speech for Labour heartlands is "When did you ever know the Tories to do any of that?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 06:05 AM

"I don't agree with giving 16/17 year olds the vote. Some of them are level-headed, but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers."


Well now, let's take a little look at this. Nigel, a Tory, doesn't want 16-year-olds to vote and gives us a vacuous reason as to why not. The real reason that Tories like Nigel don't want 16-year-olds to vote is that they know that 16-year-olds on the whole are very unlikely to vote Tory (what's more, they're far more likely to be remainers). Not only that, but they'd vote in droves because of the sheer novelty of just having been accorded the privilege. Dig into any Tory's expressed viewpoint and you will find self-interest at the core of it. Nigel feels uneasy that 16-year-olds will be under the influence of teachers. Presumably, Nigel thinks that teachers, on the whole, are a scruffy bunch of rabid leftie revolutionaries. So he doesn't trust their influence. Yet he has nothing to say about the influence on voters of the gutter mass media, four-fifths of whom are virulently anti-Corbyn, who routinely reproduce Boris's lies and who routinely mangle news and right-wing sentiment together to propagandise. Well I ask you, who do trust more to have useful and honest influence, the Sun/Daily Mail (try Richard Littlejohn some time), or a body of qualified, professional, carefully-selected teachers who are subjected to constant appraisal?

There's definitely a debate to be had about what the voting age should be. Personally, I'm in favour of lowering it, but I sort of agreed that trying to bring it in yesterday would have appeared to be vexatious. What I vehemently disagree with is that EU citizens who live, work and pay taxes here shouldn't be allowed the vote. That's an outrageous injustice in m'humble and I would have liked to see that one discussed. Had it been a successful amendment it would have severely delayed the election, but in my view that would have been justified. Again, of course, one expects that most of the 3.4 million would not be Tory voters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM

At 16 you can leave school and go into paid employment, when you will be subject to the same income tax regime as everyone else. You can join the army as a soldier at 16. You can marry and have children at 16. I note that the voting age for the Scottish independence referendum was 16. Whilst I support lowering the age to 16, I feel that it's a matter for more "leisurely" debate in Parliament than was possible yesterday. Trying to push it there and then risked putting off the election by months to allow for the bureaucracy of updating electoral registers. That would have been vexatious, though these things are always worth a shot, which at least puts the issue on the agenda for the future, a legitimate ploy in a democracy. I also note that this is an issue that has been pushed more by the SNP than by other parties, though there is wide cross-party support for it.

To me, voting rights for EU citizens is an injustice issue that needs urgent fixing. It won't be fixed, of course, while we have a bunch of eurosceptics running the show. We'll remember that next time we hear Tories burbling on about their concept of "democracy."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:02 AM

"Labour is way ahead among those aged 18 to 34, where student finance looms large, according to Ipsos Mori, although that is more than offset by a clear Conservative lead among the over 55s and a marginal lead among 35- to 54-year-olds. Pledges made to pensioners and older working age voters by both sides will be critical – particularly after the Tory disaster of the dementia tax in 2017."

Why Tories don't want to lower the voting age, despite the solid arguments for it. Why Tories wanted the 12th, not the 9th. Tories, the party of the wrinklies. Brexit, the policy for the wrinklies...

Steve (no Tory but still wrinkly)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

voting rights for EU citizens is an injustice issue that needs urgent fixing. It won't be fixed, of course, while we have a bunch of eurosceptics running the show. We'll remember that next time we hear Tories burbling on about their concept of "democracy."

It is worth knowing no other EU country offers other EU citizens voting rights in its general elections - as here, locals and European elections yes, general elections, no.”Why should EU citizens in the UK be an exception in Europe?”

No.10 is opposed to the idea of extending the vote to EU nationals on similar grounds and said it would give EU citizens “wider voting rights” than UK nationals.
It seems you advocate creating an injustice.
Fact dear boy, fact!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM

The right to vote is the most immovable of the tenets of democracy. I sit in front of the telly some nights and hear the vox pops which include people who clearly haven't a clue what they're talking about. It's perfectly obvious that millions of people who voted leave didn't know what they were really voting for. I happily resist the urge to shout out that they don't deserve the vote. Millions of people who don't follow politics at all still vote. This is a matter of principle that has been fought for over centuries. To me, the principle is that I can vote because I live here, pay taxes here, work(ed) here and am affected by government policy. That applies equally to EU citizens who live and work here. There couldn't be much objection to a minimum period of residency of several years and an insistence that they must relinquish the right to vote in another country as well. I'm aware that no other EU country affords such a right. But in my view they should. That's where I am on this. I don't care to be told that I can't propose something more fair and just than what we do now simply because others don't propose it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 11:20 AM

Quite so, Steve. I am sure there were those in New Zealand back in 1893 saying women should not have the vote because other countries did not give it to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 11:21 AM

The right to vote is the most immovable of the tenets of democracy
So why the insistence on ignoring the referendum vote?

You seem to get upset when Brexiteers hold to the tenet tenaciously.
Is it the wrong sort of vote, as you allude to above, and therefore should be ignored?

Unlike the illustruous Maggie(Blessed be her name) Labour is for turning - constantly.


Here is little toon for compo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:32 PM

Not responding necessarily to that last post.

But.

The mantra of brexiteers for the last three and a half years has been "we won, you lost, get over it." Clearly, they forgot that they got just over a third of the electorate and about a quarter of the country as a whole, but hey ho. Arsenal were beaten by Liverpool this evening, so came out with nothing whereas Liverpool came out with everything. Yet the thing was decided by the very last kick of a penalty shootout. As narrow a victory as is possible to achieve in the beautiful game. Well I don't live life like that. Passionate and tribalistic Liverpool fan that I am, I saw the merits of the young Arsenal team and will be looking out for them in future matches. I think that's pretty fair. Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain. We are remoaners and we don't count and we should shut up about it. Well no we shouldn't. If leavers regard their precious referendum result as sacred, they should now have the humility, the conscience and the confidence to let the people have another say. I mean, lads, what are you scared of? That the will of the people doesn't coincide with yours any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain

And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:01 AM

I think given the gravity of the subject and the extension into 2020 another thread is warranted sequential-like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:10 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain

And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave.

Brexiteers also ignore what is probably a big chunk of the 17.4 million (perhaps even a majority of it if there was any way of checking.) Many who voted leave wanted a Norway-style deal, as was talked about at the time. They are ignored as well: only the hardest of Brexits or no deal is allowed) That is one of the reasons I try (in vain it must be said) to distinguish Brexiteers from those who voted leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM

And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave.

I never have, Stanron. My preferred outcome is not to leave but I have said from the outset that 17 million people should not be ignored and some sort of compromise is needed. Not only have I been told that "you lost, get over it" but I have been told to tuck off to Poland where I belong, that I am a traitor and that I should be shot. Not by you, Stanron, but that attitude seems prevalent amongst you brave brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM

Tuck off is of course the famous correction by the more prudish spell checkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Wot's a compromise between in or out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jFGjC2MpUU
A ghastly thought!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

Interesting survey a couple of days ago
When do you think the UK is most likely to leave the European Union?
On 31st January
10%
Before 31st January
13%
After 31st January
23%
Not at all
22%
Don’t know
32%

I would treat all polls as suspect until the last minute, and even then if percentages are close the outcome cannot be predicted.
The joker in the pack this time is the Brexit party, and perhaps the millar tactical voting site.


I hope Compo's clutch of clots is obliterated. We shall see!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:37 AM

"Steve Shaw wrote: Brexiteers are ultra-tribalists. They IGNORE the sixteen-plus million who voted remain"

"And Remainers? They ignore 17.4 million who voted leave."

This is completely skewed. We can't "ignore" the 17 million, because they are getting their way. What they decided impacts leavers and remainers equally. We challenge the referendum result because we see it as illegitimate. We make the argument that the question asked was way too simplistic with regard to the sheer complexity of the issue. We contend that the successful leave campaign was predicated on xenophobia, even using racist material at times, and was essentially a pack of lies and propaganda intended to deceive the large numbers of the electorate who have a tangential transaction only with politics and who are thereby vulnerable to that propagandising. I hasten to add that I don't defend the remain campaign in the slightest, a point which actually reinforces my contention that the referendum was illegitimate. On the other hand, remainers have been told, including on a number of occasions here, that we lost, even that we're losers, our desire to remain will be completely ignored and that we should get over it. I could predict that this post will provoke that response yet again. Losers are easy to ignore. Winners impose their will on winners and losers equally and can't be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM

And I fully agree with DMcG's post of 03.10am.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 05:49 AM

me too, steve. and also your own post at 5.37

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

The conservative party have reported momentum to the Electoral Commission. Tory vice-chairman Paul Scully has written to the Electoral Commission to raise their concerns about Momentum’s failure to register as a non-party campaigner for the upcoming election. In less than 12 hours, Momentum claimed they’ve already raised £100,000.

If a non-party campaigner intends to spend more than £20,000, the law requires that they should be registered with the Electoral Commission. Momentum have already been spending money over the last couple of months so could well have already committed a technical breach. The law clearly states that under Political Parties Elections Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA) non-party campaigners are required to register with the Electoral Commission if they incur ‘controlled expenditure’ over a prescribed threshold during the ‘regulated period’ prior to an election. We are now in the regulated ‘long campaign’.
I wonder how long it takes the electoral commission to react?

It should be pointed out that The electoral watchdog has been accused of anti-Brexit bias for having raided Nigel Farage's party HQ within hours of Gordon Brown demanding an investigation back in May.

No doubt many will be watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM

I note that the latest Dominic Cummings edict to all prominent Tories, in every soundbite to come, is that they must characterise Corbyn via the words "dither and delay." If they can work in "get brexit done" as well, that would be a bonus. Be prepared to hear both expressions emanating from the mouths of Tory sheep 20,000 times in the next few weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:09 AM

And Johnson has repeatedly lied by claiming that every month of brexit delay costs the country £1 billion. From the Full Fact website:

In the House of Commons this week, Boris Johnson has twice repeated his claim that extending the date of Brexit for three months would cost £1 billion a month.

This is false, as we have said repeatedly. A three month extension costs the UK the same amount in EU budget payments as leaving under Boris Johnson’s own deal on 31 October would have.

Mr Johnson should correct his untrue statements to the House.

Why it’s wrong

The claim is based on the amount that the UK pays into the EU budget. Those payments are worth roughly £1 billion a month, although this doesn’t take into account some money that the UK gets back from the EU, as BBC Reality Check has pointed out.

But under Boris Johnson’s proposed deal, the UK will pay these budget contributions even after we’ve left the EU, until the end of December 2020. This is part of the financial settlement (better known as the “divorce bill”).

This is the same situation as under Theresa May’s deal—Boris Johnson’s government did not renegotiate the financial settlement.

That means the budget payments made during a Brexit extension to January 2020 simply have the effect of reducing the total divorce bill upon the UK’s departure. This has already happened before: the divorce bill was estimated at around £39 billion in March 2019, but is now down to around £33 billion as a result of extending the Brexit date by six months.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

Unfortunate things, facts, aren’t they Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM

MORE OF JOHNSON'S SUPPORTERS ABANDONING SHIP have had enough and are doing a runner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM

"Unfortunate things, facts, aren’t they Steve?"

Dunno, John. Know anyone here I could ask? :-). Oddly, I thought I could hear a clock ticking too but it appears to have stopped...Maybe the battery was only designed to "do" until October 31, then die...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

More of Johnsons supporter's are jumping ship.
This is a fine example of what happens when relabeling a newspaper article and not having a clue as to what is going on. One of tho MPs had the whip withdrawn and the other, a staunch remainer in a leave constituency, voted against the government in several pieces of recent legislation.
Along with many other denizens of the swamp they are leaving before being unceremoniously pushed by their constituents.
Neither, by the wildest stretch of the imagination can be regarded as Boris supporters.
So the attached link, as it is retitled, is simply false news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:53 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:09 AM
And Johnson has repeatedly lied by claiming that every month of brexit delay costs the country £1 billion. From the Full Fact website:
In the House of Commons this week, Boris Johnson has twice repeated his claim that extending the date of Brexit for three months would cost £1 billion a month.


And do remainers trust the "Full Fact" website?


If so we should not have further comments from remainers that the only reason (or even main reason) for Brexit is a forthcoming change in EU tax law: Full Facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM

The Full Facts about Full Facts Claim
Jim Carroll

We checked Boris Johnson's claim that a Brexit extension will cost £1bn a month – and yes, it's wrong
Full Fact: The PM is misleading you. If you’re going to make such a comparison, then you do need to actually compare the costs of both things
Tom Phillips @flashboy
Thursday 5 September 2019 12:50

In Boris Johnson’s first prime minister’s questions yesterday he claimed it would cost a net £1bn per month for Britain to stay in the EU beyond 31 October.
The claim echoes similar comments from foreign secretary Dominic Raab. Speaking on BBC Radio 4 earlier this week, he also said that the bill put forward by Hilary Benn and others – intended to rule out a no deal Brexit unless parliament consents – would cost British taxpayers £1bn a month. That’s based on the fact that we would be paying into the EU budget for longer.
This is an example of how a claim can be misleading without necessarily being incorrect. It needs more context.
The figure is based on a comparison with a no deal scenario – something that the government itself has said it doesn’t want. It relies on the assumption that under no deal, the UK won’t pay the “divorce bill” agreed with the EU. And it completely ignores a pretty fundamental point: that no deal itself would have significant costs.
The “divorce bill” agreed by Theresa May’s government already includes the UK’s normal payments into the EU budget until December 2020. The legislation currently before parliament itself proposes an extension only until January 2020.
As such, any payments into the EU budget following an extension during this period would reduce the final “divorce bill” paid upon leaving the EU by the same amount. And so, leaving with a deal in January 2020 wouldn’t cost more in EU budget contributions than leaving with a deal in October 2019 would.
This has already happened once: the original settlement was around £39 bn, but this is now down to £33bn, largely as a result of extending Brexit from March to October this year.
The government could of course plan to try and renegotiate this financial settlement before 31 October, but we aren’t aware of any indication so far that they hope to do this. The government position is that it still wants to leave with a deal, and any renegotiation efforts are focused on the question of the Irish backstop.
If Johnson is comparing the cost of any extension to a no-deal exit at the end of October, then his figure of £1bn for monthly EU contributions is in the right ballpark. However, as BBC Reality Check has pointed out, this doesn’t factor in payments received from the EU, which would reduce the amount by about a quarter.

It’s also not entirely clear that leaving with no deal would mean we could avoid paying the “divorce bill”, something which Boris Johnson has said several times would be his plan in a no-deal scenario.

When Full Fact looked at this question earlier this year, we found that under international law it’s not clearly set out that the UK has to pay anything once it has left the EU. However, the EU would be within its rights to take the case to the International Court of Justice on the grounds of the UK’s repeated commitments to pay, and the outcome of such a case would be hard to predict.
Like a lot of what’s said by all sides in the Brexit debate, context is everything. While not necessarily wrong to compare the potential cost of an extension to a no-deal exit, it’s misleading to do so given that the government’s stated intent is still to leave with a deal.
And if you’re going to make such a comparison, then you do need to actually compare the costs of both things – you need to factor in the fact that no deal itself will have both direct costs, and a broader economic impact. Most studies predict that the negative economic effects of leaving the EU will exceed the benefits of not having to pay the EU membership fee.
Tom Phillips is editor of Full Fact, the UK's independent fact checking charity

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:40 PM

Full Facts is a website set up by Tory Donors and is backed by a network of major investors with their spoons dipped deeply into the Tory soup-bowl so any support for it's findings needs to take that into consideration
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:55 PM

BREXIT AND OFFSHORE ACCOUNTS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM

JOHNSON HAS GOD ON HIS SIDE

Don't suppose Nigel and his democrats would care to comment on this !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM

Boris and Farage have Trump on their side. Far more useful doncha think?

and even more importantly the polls ( not that they mean much this far from polling)
Ipsos MORI: CON: 41% (+8) LAB: 24% (-) LDEM: 20% (-3) BREX: 7% (-3)
YouGov: CON: 36% (-) LAB: 21% (-2) LDEM: 18% (-) BREX: 13% (+1)
Survation: CON: 34% (+2) LAB: 26% (+2) LDEM: 19% (-2) BREX: 12% (-1)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

"And do remainers trust the "Full Fact" website?"

If you find anything wrong with what Jim and I have reproduced from Full Fact, Nigel, let's be having your alternative take. I read it carefully and couldn't find any defects in the piece. So it's over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 06:40 PM

As I sit here typing this it's 24 minutes to Brexit. I know this because Boris promised me. No ifs, no buts, do or die (he needs to reread that poem properly, actually), or belly-up in a ditch. I'm awaiting with bated breath. Will there be a loud siren? Will every church bell ring out? Will the mountains of the earth be laid low? Or shall I moisten this squib that I bought specially for Guido Fawkes - oops, sorry, GUY Fawkes night - next week? Anyway, I'll miss the moment as I'll be watching the Question Time bearpit, fool that I am! Tick bloody tock!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:11 PM

If you find anything wrong with what Jim and I have reproduced from Full Fact, Nigel, let's be having your alternative take. I read it carefully and couldn't find any defects in the piece. So it's over to you.

It is a fairly long piece, and I have not found problems with it.
My comment was much shorter, and you appear to have ignored the final paragraph:

And do remainers trust the "Full Fact" website?


If so we should not have further comments from remainers that the only reason (or even main reason) for Brexit is a forthcoming change in EU tax law:

If so we should not have further comments from remainers that the only reason (or even main reason) for Brexit is a forthcoming change in EU tax law: Full Facts >Full Facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:14 PM

Bugger. Ten past eleven and nothing's happened. Still, never mind. Boris has PROMISED that we'll leave on 31 January. So that's all right then. A Boris promise. Woohoo! I'll restart the clock. Tick tock...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:15 PM

Jonathon Lis in Guardian commented:

We know Halloween is overhyped, but it did promise to be genuinely terrifying this year. Jacob Rees-Mogg warned that the Conservative party would cease to exist. Boris Johnson declared that he would die in a ditch. Mark Francois informed daytime television viewers that the country would explode


Well, did the earth move for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:42 PM

Instead of attempting to make an issue of brexit not happening, (because we all know it was sabotaged by remainer MPs aided by a biased Bercow), why not give us a summary of compo's position on Brexit. I confess that I am a little confused and the long awaited election gets closer by the day. Labour's wobbling is going to eviscerate them at the ballot box.
Libdems to the left, brexit party to the right, the middle ground will will be a blasted wasteland of the shattered remnants of shell shocked labour. Wishful thinking or reality?
I predict the brexit party will now rise in the polls now the die is cast, especially after a ringing endorsement from President Trump.
Meanwhile back at the ranch - another bad day for compo:
On the first day of the campaign trail, Jeremy Corbyn suffered three major election blows. For the first time in its 100-year-history, the Jewish Labour Movement effectively went on strike, saying it would no longer send out activists due to the 'culture of anti-Semitism'. Labour also lost a battle with the BBC after attacking their anti-Semitism documentary and its presenter John Ware for apparent inaccuracy . To make matters worse for Corbyn, Nicola Sturgeon described him as 'completely and utterly useless'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM

It's a bit like science, Nigel. Close scrutiny and a search for corroboration. Nothing's perfect, but I was fine with Full Fact on this occasion. Next time could be different. I wonder whether you apply the same principle to your Mail reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 07:47 PM

The deal did not go ahead because Boris Johnson pulled it petulantly, because he tried, undemocratically, to force it through with a totally unreasonable programme motion. Who knows, had he consented to two or three more days for scrutiny, we could have been out of the EU tonight. A Tory issue, aTory problem, a Tory delay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:13 PM

Isn't it strange that our resident flag-waggers don't give a toss about foreign interference in the forthcoming British election
Maybe they can persuade Putin to send one of his agents with some of their magic potion to rub out the opposition
Nigel - you should be ****** ashamed of yourself - I expected you to rise above your running-mate, who has welcomed it but - no - a matched pair!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM

Jim:
For what am I supposed to be ashamed?
You mention 'foreign interference'. Where have I supported that?
If it is just that I haven't railed against it, then that is a very strange view point for you to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 09:00 PM

If there are any thickies still reading this thread, the Labour position can be easily understood by anyone with a CSE grade five in Media Studies, etc, or even by those who narrowly missed passing the eleven-plus. It is thus: if Labour gets power, they will negotiate a deal with the EU which they will then put to the people, with the alternative of remain on the ballot. How hard is that, chaps? And when it comes to that deal, it will involve a customs union, alignment with the single market and full rights for EU citizens. The EU will love it.

It's been as clear as that for ages. Any questions, leavers? Please let me know if it's too hard for you. Perhaps you'd be better employed trying to work out the plot of Spot The Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM

Despite what some people claim, Labour's position is very clear, as Steve says. But in fact you can go further. Labour is trying to get a deal *precisely because* it is respecting the referendum result. If they did not, there would be no need to seek a deal. And any deal they negotiate will be to leave and therefore 100% compatible with the 2016 result, which did not insist on any specific kind of leave, whatever Brexiteers would have you believe. Then they will put it to a confirmatory vote *precisely because* the 2016 did not say how we should leave so it is desirable to ask the question "Did we get this right?"

Also, we can anticipate future criticism that they will deliberately negotiate a bad deal to try to make people vote it down. They are aware the outcome of a second referendum could go either way, so they want all options to be as good as possible because they may have to implement it and live with the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:27 AM

"You mention 'foreign interference'. Where have I supported that?"
Trumps deliberate support for Farage (the racist) and Johnson and his attack on one of the main candidates in the forthcoming election ids totally unprecedented - it is a blatant attempt to influence the selection o the party that will have to clean up the mess of Brexit and put Britain on its feet again
What Trump has said so far is a step away from saying "If you elect this man there will be no Trade Deal" - given his track record that is on the cards as a next step
Given the unstable monster that Trump has proven to be, the silence of you and yours at his behaviour (and the open support from your running mate) is an utter disgrace - "traitorous" to borrow a phrase now being bandied about by your lot
As I said - you shoud be ashamed of yourself for lying down and allowing this to happen without comment
Shame on you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

The Labour strategy is to try almost to divorce Brexit from the other issues, arguing that can be settled further down the line in a referendum with a "credible" Leave option and Remain on the ballot.

Labour policy in a nutshell: Fiddle about, fiddle about.
We all know what happened to Rome when Nero had the same policy.
The turkey roast should be a stunner in December!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

if Johnson wins, with a strong hard Brexit majority we could leave by 31st January 2020, or even perhaps 1st January. At which point he will be in power for the next five years. so it is perfectly right and proper to focus on the time after Brexit day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:33 AM

"Trumps deliberate support for Farage (the racist) and Johnson..."

You misspoke, Jim. You should have said "...Farage (the racist) and Johnson (the other racist)...." Piccaninnies, watermelon smiles, letterboxes, bank robbers - remember?

It feels like the morning after one of those end-of-the-world predictions that didn't come true. I wonder whether our brexiteers would like to turn the clock back. Tock, tick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:40 AM

".Farage (the racist) and Johnson (the other racist)....""
Whoops - sorry
To a degree it doesn't matter what Johnson is when he becomes Trump's glove-puppet - his (Britain's) role will be confined to obeying HMV
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:44 AM

We had Liam Fox doing "dither and delay" this morning. I tell you, that stupid expression will be all over the place like a rash in no time at all. Ironic, really, when you think that Boris could have had his deal through by now if only he'd allowed a sensible period of time for scrutiny. Doing his deal then pulling it when things were going swimmingly was an excellent example of dither and delay, I'd say. Still, if you want an election you have to have someone to blame for something, I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:46 AM

Heheh. Was that little HMV doggy peering into the sound-horn really a poodle, Jim? That would be very appropriate!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:16 AM

With all the unsubstantiated claims of racism being hurled about, instead of reasoned argument, let us look at the facts.
In May, the Equality and Human Rights Commission announced an inquiry into whether Labour had "unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they are Jewish". (clearly an accusationof waycism)
From the Independent:(Oct.12 2019)
Members of Labour’s ruling executive have privately voiced fears that the party could be bankrupted as a result of an official inquiry into antisemitism, The Independent has learnt.

Members of the National Executive Committee (NEC) have expressed concerns that a damning verdict from the equalities watchdog about Labour’s handling of antisemitic abuse could open the party up to a slew of lawsuits from Jewish members and former members, possibly resulting in hefty damages having to be paid.

It is understood that the issue was discussed at a recent NEC meeting, with members of the committee voicing major concerns about the fallout from the probe and who would be financially responsible.

This would suggest chuckleberry's previous enquiry on the same matter was a whitewash.
Terrible things facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:24 AM

There has never been a shred of evidence that Labour has a major problem with discrimination against the Jewish People - all accusations of "antisemitish have come from 'Friends of Israel' in various forms and right-wing political opponents of Corbyn
There was not a single complaint made against Labour until Corby gave his support to The Palaestinians - not one
Israel has deliberately blurred the lines between attacks against Jews and criticsm of Israeli policy, which has harmed the Jewish Poeple as much as it has harmed the Labour Party - synagogues have now come under attack by right-wing groups in Europe - from the right - never from the left
Israel has over the last 18 months killed three times more unarmed demonstrators than were shor down at Sharpville and the press has been totally silent about this fact for fear of being branded "antisemitic"
No attacks on Jews - no antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM

I see Farage has just declared the Johnson deal to be so bad it would amount to "the end of Brexit."

it would be interesting to see how the Brexiteers on this site think they should vote then. Of course, a vote is secret so they are under no obligation to tell us, but they could still indicate whether they think the proposed deal is 'great' as Johnson claims, or 'the end of Brexit' as Faeage thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

The greased albino piglet vs the nicotine stained toad.

Should be an interesting match. Who will out-lie who?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

May's Deal aka Boris's deal is a reparations treaty with worse terms than staying in the EU.


There has never been a shred of evidence that Labour has a major problem with discrimination against the Jewish People

So you are suggesting the present enquiry is spurious?
Do not be ridiculous! If the enquiry is nonsense, as you suggest, why is the Labour party scared it might face bankruptcy? As usual your arguments are but hot air, and merely trying to provoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:20 AM

If anyone here wants to resurrect that tired old antisemitism stuff, sod off and start a thread on it, please. Now if not sooner. I want this one to keep going, thanks.

Good to see that Jeremy has two new friends, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump!

The latest Tory lie is that a Labour win would generate two referendums in 2020. Even if Labour and the SNP form some sort of alliance, there is no chance of an independence referendum next year. It's just bullshite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:37 AM

Racist Farage has demanded that racist Johnson abandons his proposals for Brexit otherwise his racist Brexit Party will contest every seat in the General Election
Racist Trump has suggested an leadership alliance between Farage and the Tories - and what we know what Trump's "suggestions" mean - ask Greenland
So a disgraced right-wing inept and disgraced political opportunist stands to joing up with an inept clown to guide Britain though the greates threat to its future that it has faced
Happy days      

"So you are suggesting the present enquiry is spurious?"
ABSOLUTELY
No atatcks on Jews - no antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM

All of the rational portion of the United States offers an apology with profound sense of shame that the meddlesome Resident of the United States has set his sites on supporting xenophobic racists in other countries. The only reason we can figure is that he has a thing for dictators who refuse to consider human rights. He is also willfully stubborn in refusing to accept advice from experts or about trying to educate himself regarding what the job of President is supposed to perform. He will never be your ally, he's only in it for himself, probably to inject revenue into any property he owns within your boundaries. #HeadsUp

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM

One of the problems with Brexit ahs been that the populism, particularly that regarding race) has been taken up and is being used all over Europe
We are now feeling the percussions in Ireland where residents of small towns chosen to house refugees are protesting (about four now) extremist right groups have honed in and made each protest a cause celebré and are using them as propaganda
Last year Marine LéPen proposed a federation of extremist groups - this seems to be part of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 02:44 PM

"Anyway, let's stick to brexit in this thread, eh?"
Yup
Johnson is on a hiding to nothing
If he doesn't drop the deal the Tory vote will be split by the Brexit party taking away votes
If he refuses to form a partnership with Farage Trump will almost certainly block any future Trade deal so if Britain leaves Europe it will have lost one of its major sources of Trade
Shafted, good and proper PBTG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:58 PM

No need to apologise, Maggie. We have vicious populists here too. We just have to fight to get them sidelined in elections, just as you do. This election is pivotal, as is yours next year. Let's fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:57 PM

There's a piece in the Guardian by Jonathan Freedland, who usually gets on me nerves big time with his bees in his bonnet, that resonated with me. Here's a chunk:

But if we won’t know who’s won till 12 December – and maybe not even then – we already know what’s been lost. The current parliament is about to breathe its last; its final act will be the election of a new Speaker on Monday. As they leave, transformed from MPs back into mere candidates, the members of the old House will have ringing in their ears the booming voice of the attorney general, Geoffrey Cox, who in a pantomime performance in September told them they were “a disgrace”, that they had lost the “moral right to sit on these green benches”. Echoing, too, will be the words of both this prime minister and the last one, denouncing them as saboteurs of the popular will, even as agents of “surrender” to a foreign enemy.

Such churn is normal at any election, but there’s something different this time.
Yet in truth, far from waving off the outgoing Commons with jeers and condemnation, we should thank them for their service. The very fact that Boris Johnson itched to see them gone is testament to their achievement. They had done their job – of acting as a restraint on the executive – with unusual ingenuity and even, whisper it, bravery.

Remember, this was a government that, had it had its own way, would have suspended parliament altogether, using the ancient royal power of prorogation. (It’s thanks to campaigners, lawyers and the wise 11 judges of the supreme court that it was stopped.) Johnson was urging the nation to jump off the 31 October cliff into a no-deal Brexit.

What held him back? Only the imagination and industry of a handful of MPs – Oliver Letwin, Yvette Cooper, Dominic Grieve, Hilary Benn and others – who were determined to find a way to block no deal, one that a majority of MPs could agree on. They succeeded. And then they succeeded again less than a fortnight ago, ensuring that Johnson was not allowed to steamroller his new EU deal into law in just three days. It’s thanks to them that, this weekend, we are still in the European Union.

Letwin, Grieve and the rest of the 21 Tories who were later purged from their party risked their careers to do that, putting the national interest first. It required working with others across the party divide. It required standing up to their leader, their whips, their local activists and a fiercely hostile pro-Brexit press. When it would have been so much easier to keep their heads down, they showed courage.

It also helped having a Speaker in John Bercow who, hardly shy of public attention, knew his duty was to defend parliament against the power-grabbing instincts of the executive.

That's a sane and rational appraisal of the last few weeks in m'humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:39 AM

No probs, pete. I know I started this thread but I don't claim to own it. Brexit is of course massively tied up with the election so I can't see an issue with bringing the election into it. Tangential issues that have been done to death over several years are a different matter. And persistently trying to bring them into this thread is barefaced trolling. We shouldn't be surprised. Anyone who is signed up here is free to start their own thread. Now it's pretty undeniable that there was a large element of xenophobia whipped up in the referendum campaign, and it's legitimate to bring it here. It is not legitimate to jump in with a load of opportunistic whataboutery. I suggest that no-one responds to it in this thread. Let's hope the mods agree and that we can keep the thread afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:40 AM

Let's try to keep this thread going, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM

As all lefties regard the gruniard as the ultimate font of truth and wisdom howsabout that:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/antisemitism

Mr shaw if you keep your semi housetrained troll under some semblance of control we can move forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM

‘Font of truth and wisdom’?

Thy lack of education, evidenced by thy mondegreens, shall find thee out, squaddie. It’s fount.

https://grammarist.com/phrase/fount-of-knowledge-or-wisdom-vs-font-of-knowledge-or-wisdom/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:13 AM

Apologies to all the decent people here for resorting to Nigelism, but sometimes the Right-Wing Extremist Troll makes such a tit of himself it’s almost impossible to resist...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 10:53 AM

THIS THOUGHTFUL PIECE IS WELL WORTH READING
AND THIS

And this is worth revisiting - the Jewish view (can't blue-clickie
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-conference-jewish-supporter-vote-political-weapon-a7330891.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 11:17 AM

Well Worth Reading on both sides of the pond -

Why Trump is much worse than the UK’s Boris Johnson and Brexit

AlterNet 1 Nov 2019

Sorry, Britain, we win. And believe me, I’m sorrier about that than I can say.

Because from where I sit, our criminal president, Cheeto Benito Trump, has got your dissembling, cheating Boris Johnson beat by a corrupt mile. Or corrupt kilometer, depending on the country.

Yes, your Brexit crisis is completely miserable and soul-desiccating, no question about it, but as immobilizing and awful as it has been for the last three-and-a-half years, your current prime minister’s colossal wrongheadedness ultimately can’t compare with the corruption that has overwhelmed the United States with the virulence of Ebola...

Article continues HERE

PS: Please DO ignore the Bo, the Bad, and the Ugly- or they'll accomplish their objective, as Steve & others points out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:36 PM

Unfortunately it was Brexit that first made populism a major threat by openig the door to anybody ruthless to use minorities and refugees as a way to the stars - we gave Trump his way in
The US has nothing to apologise for (for a change)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 01:04 PM

We certainly helped to get the tide flowing that way. There are other populist leaders in the world, of course. We desperately need to get these two out. And we need to stay in the EU, which is becoming the only decent major democratic bloc on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM

"There are other populist leaders in the world, of course."
I think ours have been the first to hit the big time in the 21st century
Not something I would boast about
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM

The truely shameful thing if that Farage succeeded using the arguments Enoch Powell was disgraced out of politics - a true measure of Britain's deterioration
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 02:12 PM

For the pedantic:
Strictly speaking, 'fountain of all knowledge' is correct rather than 'fount' or 'font'. All three are used nowadays, but the original ?fountain' version was a 17th century quote and the other two are just more modern variants of that original.
The quote is from 'An Essay Concerning Human Understanding' by the philosopher, John Locke, published in 1690. Clearly, in it he was referring to God.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 02:54 PM

Can’t agree about the origins of anti-EU populism ,Jim C. Whatever about the leave/ remain options on offer in the UK ballot paper, this thing called Brexit is the package people are going to get if Johnson and Farage get their way .
Thatcherism originated in the US in the 70s with the Chicago School of Economics before Thatcher came to power in the UK . Similarly, Brexit,which was not offered as an option in the 2016 referendum, comes from powerful, vehemently anti-EU interests in the US working with co-thinkers in the UK to break up a competitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 03:44 PM

At last, in his speech on 1/11/19 opening the Brexit Party’s election campaign, Ole Haddock-Face finally confesses that Brexit is NOT ‘The Will of the People’...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 03:53 AM

The danger of a Corbyn Victory in December.

Clearly the state of denial some are in is not shared in the real world.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1199346/Election-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-James-Cleverly-Labour-antisemitism-anti-Semitic-Jewi


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/02/jewish-families-will-leave-uk-jeremy-corbyn-wins-general-election/

We had better hope the populists win and give magic grandad a thorough trouncing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

Meanwhile, back to the thread topic. A very interesting piece by William Keegan, attempting to alert the disenfranchised in our society that it was the Conservative Party’s Austerity, not the EU, that broke the UK and left them behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM

Labour appears to be gaining in the polls and the Brexit Party down in the dumps were they belong
Liberal Democrats are losing support steadily
Johnson is refusing Farage's advances for now but is quite likely to do a fracking-like U-turn when he realise that The Brexit Party, with no chance of winning is quite likely to split the Tory vote down the middle
Early days yet - Trump is not beyond parachuting in the marines if things don't go his way, as described in MY ALL TIME FAVOURITE TV SERIAL
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM

While the rats are busy fighting in the sack the polls will be all over the place. I will wait until around the 5th Dec and see how the polls are behaving then. Magic grandad is 12 points behind at present, and who knows what damage the brexit party will cause in the labour heartlands?
We need all the opening phase infighting to settle down and re evaluate what the polls may be indicating.It is interesting the way the polling changed as soonas the brexit party released their mission statement.
If the brexit party and torys refuse to deal the dynamics change! Can the torys take that risk? Is the treaty Boris is trying to ram through worse than remaining?
This will be an election on brexit, no matter what attempts are made to broaden the discussion,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM

And a very interesting opinion here from Prof. Sir John Curtice, the UK’s leading election expert, on the possible outcome of the election, and the very different effect the result may have on the two main parties...and hence on the likelihood of Brexit happening or, hopefully, not.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/shelagh-fogarty/professor-john-curtice-makes-surprising-prediction/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM

'No 10 blocks Russia EU referendum report until after election'

That is the title of an article in the Guardian today.

I wonder what it contains that Johnson, who has had the report since at least the 17th October, wishes to keep from the UK electorate.

Could someone please link to the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 02:00 PM

Block on release of investigation into Russian interference in EU referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 02:03 PM

Thanks DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:05 PM

That report needs to be leaked. Openness is crucial to democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:17 PM

Just now, on the BBC news, it was stated that the BBC understands that the report has received security clearance and that there is no administrative reason why the report can't be published.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:58 PM

I note that Johnson has said that there is no way he would ask for an extension to the transition period at the end of 2020. As there is no chance of a deal with the EU being finalised by that date, he is in effect promising us a no-deal brexit. Be advised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:34 AM

That last point reinforced by Gove this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

I don't know if anyone else here heard it, but if so what to you think of Andrew Bridgen's attempts to excuse Jacob Rees-Mogg's blunder? To me, Andrew's remarks were very nearly as bad in casting the majority of the population as in need of patricians to tell them what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:43 PM

Sky News picks up Andrew Bridgen's 'defence'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:43 PM

It's all very well to portray it as guidance from patricians, but the thought process at the time would have been:
"I'm in a burning building, should I follow my instincts, and get out, or follow the advice of the fire brigade and stay put?"
While the fire brigade were giving what they believed (at the time) to be the best advice, it has since transpired that "I'm in a burning building, I need to get out" would have been the best response for most of the victims.
JRM may not have phrased that well, and it may be that there is no way to phrase it without risking offending someone. But, generally speaking, his comments were truthful.

And what has this to do with Brexit anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM

I agree it would have been better if I had put it in the election thread. Point taken there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 03:38 PM

Once again there is no response from the Brexiteers to a potentially critical report being withheld from the scrutiny of not only parliament but from the public of the UK.

Democracy eh ....................

Just what does Johnson have to hide I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 07:12 PM

i'm fairly sure it will be out in the next couple of weeks. again people will fall not because of the original crime but the cack-handed and stupid way of trying to cover stuff up

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 12:52 PM

Interesting that Bercow who liked to be "innovative" has perhaps had a parliamentary response. As yet, in a break with tradition, the ex speaker has not been awarded a peerage.
How very sad!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:29 PM

Break with tradition - on the day the Prime Minister visits the Queen to confirm the general election, a cabinet minister is forced to resign over his part in the interference of a rape trial leaving the Welsh Tories leaderless in an election to select a Government to guide Britain out of the unholy mess Brexit has caused so far (and Britain's not out yet)
The rape victim said not one of the minister's colleagues has contacted her over this FIFTEEN MONTH OLD INCIDENT
Bet she can't wait to get to the ballot box to put them in office again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:47 AM

'A very slow-cooked Bullshit-Casserole' - the Independent's view of the litany of lies that was Johnson's speech at the launch of the Tory election campaign.

Why would anyone expect anything but lies from a serial-liar? He wouldn't know truth if it bit him on his big, fat, Belgium-sized arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:23 PM

Meanwhile civil war within the Labour ranks. Hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:50 PM

Seems that interfering with a rape trial is ok with the Tories - to be expected with GROPEY BORIS in charge I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM

No, rape is not acceptable (to Conservatives). See my comments Here

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:07 PM

And you are usually so insistent on accuracy, Nigel! Jim did not comment on whether rape was acceptable to conservatives. He remarked that interfering in a rape trial seems to be. That's different, I think you will agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:44 PM

Boris is telling lies

Oh look! Labour antisemitism!

The economy is in tatters

Oh look! Labour antisemitism!

People are dying because of unnecessary austerity

Oh look! Labour antisemitism!

Brexit is a complete and utter shambles

Oh look! Labour antisemitism!

Ever feel like you are stuck in a loop?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:21 AM

The economy is in tatters

Best not talk about Germany then!
UK projected growth 1.3%(the same as France)
Germany 0.4%
Italy 0.1%
Oh look! Labour antisemitism!
In May, the Equality and Human Rights Commission announced an inquiry into whether Labour had "unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they are Jewish".
Oct 12, 2019 - Members of Labour's ruling executive have privately voiced fears that the Labour Party risks bankruptcy over the antisemitism investigation.
Oh Look! Why would they be saying that do you think?

Naughty naughty

even more naughty naughty

Tsk tsk

Everything is perfectly healthy and normal here in Denial Land.”
? Jim Butcher

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:06 AM

And now for something completely different.
Let the infighting commence! Enjoy!


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/11/unite-claims-labours-anna-turley-is-unfit-to-be-an-mp-court-hears

The pantomime season is in full swing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM

Talking of ‘Pantomime Season’ - our erstwhile, would-be-again PM apparently off his tits and talking even more bollocks than usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:31 AM

Compo behind the curve as usual!
Corbyn has just called on the government to activate the Bellwin scheme to provide financial support to communities affected by flooding. The Bellwin formula makes funding available immediately to local authorities, such as those dealing with flooding in the Midlands and Yorkshire. An obviously good idea from Jeremy Corbyn. Which is probably why the Prime Minister activated it 3 days ago…
As one more polite commentator says:
"Scared chickens watching their increasingly shrinking poll numbers, frantically running around trying to politicise any disaster for their own political ends. Completely lacking in competence and morals."

Seems a fair summary to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:21 AM

More bad news for the Brexit-Bunch as the UK faces a cliff-edge on trade...

” By compulsively declaring that he will get Brexit done, the prime minister is desperately and dangerously diverting attention from the harm that Brexit will do.”

Ah well, at least we’ll have ‘Taken are cuntry back’, and....unicorns!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 07:13 AM

The telegraph:
Tories more popular among working class than rich, new general election poll shows
Evening Standard
UK opinion polls: Conservative Party to win more support from working class voters than upper class this election
Guido Fawkes
New polling from YouGov shows a twenty point lead for the Conservatives amongst C2DE (working-class) voters

The gruniard
'I've never known voters be so promiscuous': the pollsters .

Hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:44 AM

Finally, a parliament committed to getting Brexit done. All those standing for the Conservative Party have already pledged to vote for Boris' deal, and they hold the majority of the seats.

Onward and upward! (and 'outward')

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 06:02 AM

At least we will leave with a deal. Question is how long will it take?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 06:08 AM

"At least we will leave with a deal. Question is how long will it take?"

I wonder how that deal will go down in Northern Ireland where the DUP may feel they've been sold down the river.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 06:22 AM

I am not sure we will leave with a deal. on 1st July they have to ask more time to go beyond 2020. Given Johnson's campaign, plus a hard line element and arguably over confidence, I am fairly certain they will decide against and stick to the Dec 2020 date. Whether a deal of any kind or we leave with no deal at that point (as some ERG member claim they were promised) can be agreed in that time remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 06:48 AM

As Boris no longer needs the ERG's support I am not sure they will continue to wield any influence. We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 07:37 AM

The one good thing to come from the election omnishambles is the neutralisation of the ERG, although I’m sure they will continue to try to get a Brexit crash-out. The problem is that, with a compulsive liar like Johnson, it’s impossible to know what his real intentions are - this particular ‘white man speak with forked tongue’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:57 AM

At least we will leave with a deal. Question is how long will it take?
According to Boris, the end of 2020. But it is an assumption that "we will leave with a deal". Boris says that that is what he wants, and I believe him. But no-deal (WTO terms) remains on the table, at the least as a bargaining chip.
No-deal will only be needed if the EU prove unwilling to agree suitable terms, (within the timescale) but the possibility of no-deal might encourage them to be more reasonable.
People will remember the EU saying that when Boris took over there could be no re-negotiation of Mrs May's deal. Within 3 months there was a new deal on the table. Boris clearly knows more about negotiating than Mrs May did, and possible more than the EU team. He says we will leave by the end of 2020 (preferably with a deal) and I believe him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:56 AM

We leave, deal or no deal.
Democracy rules OK!!!!!!!

Oh dear the lefties don't like getting thrashed do they?
The polls have been pointing out the obvious for a long time.
People do not like being lectured, hectored, pissed on, or being called stupid.

Labour learnt the obvious too late! Oh what a joyful day this is.
All the strutting by the lefties on this forum has been to no avail

As the guardian said not so many moons ago:

'I've never known voters be so promiscuous': the pollsters .

Hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:29 AM

No-deal will only be needed if the EU prove unwilling to agree suitable terms

You are aware that negotiations are a two way thing aren't you, Nigel? Surely that should read "if the EU and UK cannot agree suitable terms".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:59 AM

Yes, that is the way negotiations should work. But the EU seem to work on the basis of "tell us what you want, and we'll tell you why you can't have it". Which means that when the UK puts a proposal on the table the EU can choose whether to accept it, or to have the UK leave with no deal.
We (the UK) are leaving the EU by the end of January. After that we will not be negotiating as supplicants.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 01:57 PM

We (the UK) are leaving the EU by the end of January. After that we will not be negotiating as supplicants.

That is a matter of opinion, of course. You could as easily say we had more power and influence before we finally sign the withdrawal agreement, but will be supplicants to get a good deal afterwards. It is a matter of belief which party needs a trade deal more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 03:34 PM

"getting Brexit done."

Quite frankly, if you are saying this you are brain-dead. Brexit will not be "done" within ten years, possibly longer. The racism of brexiteers (the main driver of their thinking) will come back to bite them big-time. And there is absolutely no guarantee of a trade deal by Johnson's promised deadline. In fact, if he hasn't gone crawling to the EU for an extension within six or seven months I'll eat my hat.

One more thing. The appalling stats for A&E waiting times, the worst ever, and a national disgrace caused solely by Tory misrule, should have been released yesterday. Some "watchdog" or other forced a delay until today because "things like that shouldn't be released on polling day." Well I bloody well think they absolutely should be. In a democracy we should have all legitimate information to hand before we vote. It wouldn't have made much difference because parties aren't allowed to make hay on polling day, but a very important principle of democracy was breached there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 04:43 PM

The racism of brexiteers (the main driver of their thinking) will come back to bite them big-time.! Looks like reality bit you lefties and now the whining starts

What a stunning day this has been.

I have been waiting all day for shaw's contribution.

HA HA HA HA HA HA..........................................

Looks like all your lording it over brexiteers for the last three years has accomplished nowt, and even better you have been proved wrong(or full of shit).

By the way it is Labour undergoing an investigation by the Equality and Human rights Commission for endemic racism.
We brexiteers are pure as driven snow.
Calling us all racists merely demonstrates the accuracy of labeling you a leftard. As you have everything back to front and upside down I suggest you take your head out of your arse, wake up and smell the coffee. Then you can apologize to the majority of the population that used their heads to vote instead of ideology.
Labour is totally buggered for a generation at least! GOOD!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 08:24 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 01:57 PM

We (the UK) are leaving the EU by the end of January. After that we will not be negotiating as supplicants.

That is a matter of opinion, of course. You could as easily say we had more power and influence before we finally sign the withdrawal agreement, but will be supplicants to get a good deal afterwards.
No, I could not say that. I try to keep the tenses of my arguments consistent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:07 AM

Now shaw has put the prosecco bottle away for the night and finished his rant, here is an article from the guardian all about "waycism"

Jeremy Corbyn of having “failed the test of leadership” over his handling of antisemitism complaints within the party.

Condemnation from within the ranks!
Rather hard to deny.
But with a weak leader due for the compost heap what else can be expected?

Meanwhile Boris's bright star is in the ascendancy. Happy,happy days!
Now we can look forward to the overhaul of the BBC
the fixed term parliament act
The supreme court(hopefully restoring the judicial functions of the Lord Chancellor)
Delivery of brexit(deal or no deal) But the EU will now have to act seriously - playtime is over, and no deal will hurt many in the EU, especially Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:38 AM

OK, so I changed the tense. I care more about the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:44 AM

"Now shaw has put the prosecco bottle away for the night and finished his rant..."

I posted my "rant" whilst stone-cold sober. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's be having it. Otherwise, just shut your ugly mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:55 AM

As I said to John earlier, Steve. You know the drill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:57 AM

Oh Dear! a hangover perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:47 AM

"John McDonnell QUITS as civil war erupts over direction Party should take: Labour MPs and union baron Len McLuskey gun for 'anti-Western' Jeremy Corbyn as ousted 'Red Wall' MP says leader was 'poison on doorsteps'"

What happy little chappies - a joy to watch!

Meanwhile for the valiant Brexiteers:

Adeste fideles laeti triumphantes

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:13 AM

And....4400

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:33 AM

"McDonnell said there needed to be a debate about how “[Corbyn] – who I think is one of the most principled, honest, sincere, committed, anti-racist politicians – [was] demonised by a smear campaign”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:07 AM

I’ve also posted this on the GE thread. It’s the best piece I’ve seen since the election...

”So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a to do list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.

2. The nhs. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB. This is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB. This is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any if this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:09 AM

While the signing of the Withdrawal Agreement looks certain (bar something like the ERG refusing because it is too soft for their tastes, for example), we need to remember that this does not address anything about a lot of important matters such as trade, which is actually a much tougher battle than the WAB. For example, how to resolve the different objectives of the EU and the US and sign new trade deals with both will still need sorting out. The decision to leave will be confirmed. The destination has not been.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:16 AM

The decision to leave will be confirmed.

Has been, I should have said. I know how upset Nigel gets about tenses!


(Yes, I know more people voted for a party which promised a second referendum. But that's how our crazy voting system works.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:18 PM

As Backwoodsman has posted the same copy'n'paste' argument here as elsewhere, I'll copy my response as well:

Backwoodsman: Just to correct a couple of comments in your copy/paste:

One of the bast pieces I’ve read, in the aftermath of the GE....

”So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a to do list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.
I expect to see us out of the EU by the end of January, in fact, this has been promised. There will still be negotiations needed to confirm our ongoing trading position with the EU

2. The nhs. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.
£350 million was not promised. This has been explained before. The comment on the bus listed what we pay to EU each week, and suggested we could spend it better, with more being paid to NHS. Nowhere did it claim that the whole amount would go to the NHS.
Oh, and £350,000,000 per week equating to 72,000 nurses? This means nurses are paid over £4,000 per week. Figures worthy of Diane Abbott

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB. This is urgent.
No. Scotland were not promised that they would remain in the EU if we went for Brexit. They were told that if they went for independence (at that time) they would no longer be part of the UK, and so would lose their membership of the EU. If they were no longer part of UK then they would no longer be part of EU. If they remained part of UK then they would remain part of EU as long as the rest of UK did. This may be difficult to understand, but please try.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB. This is also urgent. There have always been calls in Ireland for re-unification. Whether Brexit makes those calls stronger is debatable.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out. The pound has already rallied, and the FOOTSIE 250 has also seen improvements. It seems the financial industries can see benefits which you cannot.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other. If Labour had won, and if they had proved to be a Remain party (rather than sitting on the fence) there would still have been a need to "bring the country back together". So this is a rather pointless point

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any if this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”

Next time, try and come up with your own arguments, rather than some unattributed copy'n'paste.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:11 AM

"McDonnell said there needed to be a debate about how “[Corbyn] – who I think is one of the most principled, honest, sincere, committed, anti-racist politicians – [was] demonised by a smear campaign”.

I trust you jest!
1)https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/corbyn-condemned-for-supporting-those-convicted-of-1994-terror-attacks-in-london-1.468429

2)https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/10/03/jeremy-corbyn-has-a-soft-spot-for-extremists-ira-hamas-hezbollah-britain-labour/


Plenty more of the same ilk. Corbyn is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. To coin a backward man phrase: it is only the f**kwits on the left posting here that would ever contemplate voting for the racist marxist fool. Still we do not have to worry about labour for many moons. They have crashed and burnt bigtime.

As Hurree Jamset Ram Singh of the remove would say:
"The joyfulness is terrific"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:12 AM

Margaret Thatcher was a big fan of the EU single market.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-papers-for-1988-reveal-her-deep-enthusiasm-for-the-single-market

That would have made for some interesting conversations with the right.wing brexiteers on here!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:03 AM

A perfect summary: The daily Wail has the rights of it, not the shoutie leftards on this forum.
"Britain’s divide isn’t North v South or red v blue. It’s between the ugly intolerant Left and the rest of us
The real chasm which has arisen is between a Conservative party that committed itself to fulfilling the will of the people, and two Left-wing parties which had devoted the past three-and-a-half years to subverting it.

It is a divide between people who have real-world concerns and those focused on niche and barely significant ones. It is a divide between those who worry about the way they are governed, how the nation will fare and how high immigration should be and those who hector them as backwards or bigoted for even noticing such things.

How, you might ask, have we reached such a state? There is a clue in the Labour Party’s dysfunctional reaction to its catastrophic defeat on Thursday.

Even after the Conservatives won in a near-landslide, the Leftist automatons that run the party are choosing to learn nothing.

They are not using this time for self-reflection or to work out how they approach this new division. Instead, they’re stuck on repeat – at increasing volume."
and if further proof is needed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7793275/DOUGLAS-MURRAY-Britains-divide-ugly-intolerant-Left-rest-us.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:35 AM

aye, right. in my life - in the workington constituency- many of my friends are upset and worried about the future. at work some have been very vocally ukip and brexitty and i've learned to keep quiet to avoid arguments (it's tiring, i don't like anuse and it gets us nowhere) personally, i am not particularly bothered about brexit but am always anti-tory as i worry about public services (i work supporting disabled people in west cumbria) sorry, i'm getting distracted. anyway - some people are upset and worried, some will be pleased at a rejuvenated tory government. but as ever, a majority of people aren't particularly bothered and mistrust or dislike all politicians. calling any group 'intolerant, bigoted, ugly etc....' doesn't do anyone any good. surely we all come across people in all walks of life who may have different views but we would never label an individual in this way. of course it is a lot easier to see the world in black and white if our only relationship is with a computer screen. or the daily heil. (by the way - that 'leftard' word is ugly and offensive

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:59 AM

I fully agree, Pete, but reason does not work with some people. You can chose to ignore them or pay them back with the kind of abuse they use. I used to do the latter but it is wearying and, as you say, gets you nowhere. Ignoring them is far more satisfying and makes life a lot pleasanter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM

(by the way - that 'leftard' word is ugly and offensive

Not near as offensive as being called a fuckwit or racist or mentally deficient. and by the way it is leftards protesting in the streets because they cannot accept a democratic vote. That is even more offensive.

Ignoring them is far more satisfying and makes life a lot pleasanter.

Very true. Now we have had an election and proved even to the most retarded that leave has won by an overwhelming majority.

Compo got such a drubbing his arse cheeks outshine Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.
Now you all can squeam and squeam to no avail. How very frustrating
for you. Luvvin it!



Boris Johnson has ordered his aides to launch an urgent review into decriminalising the BBC license fee in the wake of his election triumph.
The Telegraph

Sky paid the poison dwarf 60k for a program watched by 46000 people

This election is the gift that just keeps giving!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:45 AM

And of course the more they are ignored the more desperate their cries for attention get, Pete :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

one of the things about my job is that disabled people are never abisive, never sarcastic, never cruel and will take people as they find them. they can teach us many things about how to deal with each other.

iain, please could you stop using terms like 'retarded and leftard'? i'm sure you have many other ways you can be abusive and spiteful without referring to people with different abilities to yourself.

sorry everyone, i can usually ignore this stuff but that really bugs me, is that why you do it iain? maybe it is useless to appeal to your better nature but i'll give it one more go

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:34 PM

Margaret Thatcher was a big fan of the EU single market.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thatcher-papers-for-1988-reveal-her-deep-enthusiasm-for-the-single-market
That would have made for some interesting conversations with the right.wing brexiteers on here!

I started reading it. While the headline seems to support your contention, the opening paragraphs make it clear that Margaret Thatcher was a fan of the EU as it then was, not the EU it would become:

Her speechwriting files for Bruges, including drafts and contributions from outsiders, are among more than 40,000 pages of Lady Thatcher’s papers for the year 1988 being opened to the public at Churchill College from Monday.
They show that rather than acting as a call-to-arms for Eurosceptics and attacking the principles behind the single market – of which Thatcher was something of a devotee – her speech was more concerned with the perceived power grab by European Commission chief Jacques Delors, and a possible move to a more ‘federal’ European ‘super-state’.
Historian Chris Collins of the Margaret Thatcher Foundation, the only person to date to have read all 40,000 pages of material being released, said: “She wanted her speech to be about direction, rather than point scoring – and she edges back from attacking the Commission, approaching it in a more intellectual style.
“I know she was uncomfortable about the venue, but we are very lucky in that few of her speeches remain in such a complete form as this.
“When you read her papers for 1988, you see her sheer level of enthusiasm for the single market. She goes up hill and down dale with deep enthusiasm because this is practical Europe, this is how it works together. The role of speechwriter Hugh Thomas – a committed Europhile – is also crucial to consider when looking at this speech from a historical perspective.”
The section in bold illustrates exactly my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:45 PM

The section you highlighted, Nigel, contains the phrase "the perceived power grab". I'm sure you will note the word "perceived". Not a real power grab. Nothing actually happening. Just perceived. Exactly the same as it is now. You will also note that I said she was a devotee of the single market. Which is exactly what the article said. So just what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM

"iain, please could you stop using terms like 'retarded and leftard'? i'm sure you have many other ways you can be abusive and spiteful without referring to people with different abilities to yourself.

sorry everyone, i can usually ignore this stuff but that really bugs me, is that why you do it iain? maybe it is useless to appeal to your better nature but i'll give it one more go..."

I wouldn't bother, Pete. He uses the term retarded and similar but he's not referring to people different to himself. He is actually referring to himself. Recognise that here we have a man (well, he uses a man's name but who knows?) who is a right-wing plant (notice that he never denies this, because he can't) and who is clearly mentally ill. The mods can't deal with him because he posts from more than one IP address. Just don't bother with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:27 PM

Dave, you went on to say: That would have made for some interesting conversations with the right.wing brexiteers on here!

I think most of the Brexiteers on here have been quite clear that the Single Market, in and of itself, was not necessarily a bad thing. The problem we saw (and continued to foresee) was the steady mission creep toward the centralised control of the whole European area.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:43 PM

Rubbish. There is no mission creep in that direction without our say-so. We have considerable powers of veto as of now, but of course we will lose them and as such we risk the EU doing what your fearmongering suggests. I'll ask you in two or three years' time whether that makes you feel happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:33 AM

The mods can't deal with him because he posts from more than one IP address. Just don't bother with him.

Well the only way mr shaw would know this is because a moderator is talking out of school.

I connect to the internet exclusively via a cellular network.
When you use your carrier’s network, you’re using your carrier’s IP addresses, and they’re changing all of the time. Your private address connects you to the nearest cell tower. Your public address is one of many that connects your carrier’s network to the Internet.

Mr shaw full of shit and displaying his ignorance as usual.

However it does raise some interesting questions about privacy.
I guess data protection in the States is far more relaxed than in the UK, not that this particular issue concerns me.

Whether a moderator should be releasing this information is a matter for the Mods and Max to resolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:45 AM

I think most of the Brexiteers on here have been quite clear that the Single Market, in and of itself, was not necessarily a bad thing. The problem we saw (and continued to foresee) was the steady mission creep toward the centralised control of the whole European area.

That is certainly my view. As a trading block the EU makes some kind o fsense, but the shambles that is the CAP exposes fundamental flaws, as is an inability to react in a timely fashion. And auditing is not a part of the EU lexicon.

I think it has gone far beyond mission creep. Majority voting is progressing nicely and is the stated aim for all aspects of legislation.
It is the stated aim to have a common foreign policy.
Armed forces peacekeeping missions are already EU badged.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:23 AM

A steady mission creep, Nigel? It was a perceived power grab in 1988. It is still a perceived power grab in 2019. Nothing has changed in over 30 years. There is no mission creep, steady or otherwise. If you think the single market is a good thing, why on earth did you vote to leave it? While in the EU we have power to change the things you don't like. Outside, we have no chance of changing anything. Do you want me to post the list of lies reported in the press about EU rules and regulations again?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:41 AM

Just as importantly, we are losing to power to prevent changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:04 AM

Mission Creep or landslide? Those ruled by ideology are unable to see the obvious. Luckily the recent election has cast the doubting Thomas's into the wilderness, preferably far enough away where we no longer have to hear their shoutie, strident,screeching voices

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/qualified-majority-voting-system-to-be-extended-under-treaty-provisions-1.1096639

https://www.eesc.europa.eu/en/our-work/opinions-information-reports/opinions/taxation-qualified-majority-voting


https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2019/635533/EPRS_BRI(2019)635533_EN.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:21 PM

I can't help thinking, Steve, that if some of the things that are being listed and we were blocking via our veto come to pass, the response will be "See? We got out just in time!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:01 PM

Oh God, yes. However, I've never seen the EU as an evil empire that's rubbing its hands with glee at the very prospect of the UK leaving, just waiting to pile on deleterious changes. It's still a democratic bulwark of (sadly) 27 nations against the increasing loss of democracy in the wider world. What a shame that we can't use our constructive influence in that regard any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

Good too see the glitterai twitterers and the lefties posting here still do not get it. Luvvie lefty hugh grant campaigned in 5 constituencies.
Guess wot? They lefties lost each one. Calling people racist, stupid and deplorables gave Boris the premiership and Trump the Presidency.


Keep going as you are boyos your actions ensure Labour is finished not for just 5 years but forever.
The gnome, backward man, Shaw and a few also-rans think they know it all. Harsh reality has proved otherwise.

Your antics are a joy to behold

https://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=137181

Watch, assimilate, digest! perhaps you might learn something

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:01 PM
Oh God, yes. However, I've never seen the EU as an evil empire that's rubbing its hands with glee at the very prospect of the UK leaving, just waiting to pile on deleterious changes.

I've never seen that either. I see them wringing their hands that Britain is leaving, and doing all in their power to prevent it.

Fortunately the UK will leave the EU by 31 Jan, and will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020, and this end date will have been written into law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:04 AM

"and will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020"

Are you sure of that? I hope you're right.

I wish I could share your faith in our National Liar-in-Chief's intentions. I suspect the largely non-dom bunch of billionaire tax-dodgers who control him might have a rather different view...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:26 AM


"and will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020"

Are you sure of that? I hope you're right.

There is lot of talk of a minimal deal on the EU side. It is possible that a deal of some kind is done by the end of 2020 that is just a phase of a much longer set of talks. That would enable both sides to claim they had met their goal, which is often how these things work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:27 AM

Yes, I admit that, at the moment, it only says 'attempt', but here is today's news, taken from The Guardian

Boris Johnson will attempt to mark his election promise to “get Brexit done” by writing into law that the UK will leave the EU in 2020 and will not extend the transition period.
As MPs begin to be sworn in at Westminster on Tuesday, the prime minister’s team is working on amending the withdrawal agreement bill so that the transition, also known as the implementation period, must end on 31 December 2020 and there will be no request to the EU for a further extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:42 AM

Yes, I admit that, at the moment, it only says ‘attempt’...”

But that’s not the same thing as ‘will have concluded trade deals (with the EU) by the end of 2020’, is it?

I’m very concerned that what The National Liar-in-Chief is trying to do is to give himself a legalised excuse to crash-out without a trade-deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:53 AM

WTO jurisdiction blocked

If we end up without a deal, we are often told we will trade on WTO rules. But currently the WTO court that resolves disputes is blocked. I have not seen any explanation how setting up new WTO trading is expected to work without the court. Trading that is already established is risky enough, but since they will have been running for some time most potential disputes are likely to resolved. But setting up a new one is trickier.

Trump seems perfectly happy to leave the court dysfunctional, so if he is re-elected we cannot assume it will be running over the initial year or two when we need to set up many of the agreements.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:57 AM

Germany's Central Bank said in a report Monday that Europe's biggest economy will likely stagnate in the fourth quarter of 2019 as the country faced a decline in factory orders and industrial production in October.

"German economic output could stagnate in the final quarter of 2019," the Bundesbank wrote in its monthly report.

The ongoing U.S.-China trade war has hurt German industry, with the German economy heavily relying on exports to China. German automobile manufacturers have had trouble selling their vehicles in the Chinese market amid trade tensions.

Germany is also worried about the prospect of the U.K. leaving the European Union without a deal, known as a hard Brexit. A report in February suggested that 100,000 German jobs are at risk due to a hard Brexit.

That news will likely change the EU stance on brexit negotiations,especially as the recent election thinned out the treacherous remainiacs from the Tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:03 PM

So, now it is happening. Now we know when. Now we know we will be out of the EU by the end of January, when can we expect to see all these financial benefits? When will food become cheaper? When will all the savings destined for the NHS start to take effect? When will all the jobs currently performed by immigrants be taken over by our unemployed youth?

We need to know these things. These are what leaving the EU has been sold on. I guess they have to be realised before the next election or Bozzer may have problems explaining why they have not yet happened. Either way, I'm looking forward to it. If we do reap the benefits, fantastic. I shall fully admit I was wrong and enjoy my new found wealth. If we don't, I will enjoy seeing the GAP try to wriggle out of it. Win-win :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

Win-win :-)

My crystal ball sez that the greens will be a more significant entity than labour come the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:25 PM

The mods can't deal with him because he posts from more than one IP address.

Not so, Steve. All they need to do is delete his membership as they've done to countless others (deserving and not so) and Hey Presto!- no more Iains.

Its a problem of will, not of mechanics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:03 PM

You could be right, Bill, but though I occasionally argue with the mods I always accept that this isn't my gig, so I tend not to dwell. Interesting that we've found his soft underbelly, though. Gosh, don't he kick up when we ever mention his roving IP addresses... :-). Summat to hide, I reckon!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:50 AM

Gosh, don't he kick up when we ever mention his roving IP addresses... :-). Summat to hide, I reckon!

Glad to see you confirming your idiocy, have another bottle of prosecco.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:07 AM

I think this business of a roving IP address is a distraction. In my own case, for example, I post from home via a Virginmedia allocated IP, my phone via a Vodafone allocated IP, and when I visit my sons I may post via their IP addresses, or via a hotel's. Then - until I retired at the end of Novemeber - I occasionally posted from several different sites at work, each with their own dedicated lines. So people can have quite complicated IP patterns without any intention of avoiding control.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:31 AM

It could be, DMcG, or it could be someone trying to hide who they are as has happened with right wing plants here before. I do not know which it is but judging purely by the posts my money is on something to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:40 AM

An IP address is dynamic especially when connecting via a cellular network (As I do). A MAC is a unique identifier.

Good to see further displays of stupidity off the lefties.

Your cell phone IP can be traced and even, located exactly on the map if someone has advanced technologies and network algorithms.
As I have been surfing for over 20 years I am sure I have a multiplicity of IP addresses spread over multiple countries. Only an utter ignoramus would try to make an issue of it.

Now back to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:15 AM

As I said, Dave, we've found one of his soft underbellies. Don't he make such a big fuss!

I see that our clownish prime minister is doing his brinksmanship bit again with the EU. There is no chance of a fully worked-out deal by next December. He is blatantly trying to hector the EU into complying with him in a hurry. It won't work. We need them far more than they need us, he seems to have forgotten in his post-victory hubris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:42 AM

4444!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:07 AM

As I said, Dave, we've found one of his soft underbellies. Don't he make such a big fuss!

Best cut down on the prosecco laddie, you are beginning to sound deranged. Besides providing me with endless entertainment

Here is a stunner from Bliar Blair:
'Ditch Corbyn's agenda or we're finished': Tony Blair slams modern Labour as a hard-Left 'comedy cult' and warns the party could DIE as he FINALLY admits that Brexit will happen telling Remainers: 'We've lost'

Are you paying attention?

Boris promises to give British judges power to overrule EU law and ‘take back control’

Corbyn and allies ‘marooned on fantasy island’ Blair rages - come back to reality mainland

and some festive news from Guido, the font of truth and enlightenment

https://order-order.com/2019/12/17/distrust-beeb-trust/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 09:05 AM

"Just because you're neurotic, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you..." :-)

Wonder whether he's out there looking for new masts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:06 AM

"Lower courts can roll back EU laws after Brexit, No 10 confirms"

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. The reason given is that the Government does not want roll back of these laws to be stuck in the Supreme Court due to it being overloaded. But surely if such a law is (or is not) repealed by a lower court, in many cases this will immediately lead to the judgement itself being appealed? Which will, ultimately, end up at the Supreme Court anyway?   The only way I can see of avoiding that is to find some way of limiting the appeal process, which is itself a substantial reduction in citizen's rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:09 AM

And, following from that, there may well be several months between the lower court decision and the supreme court decision, during which time employers (etc) will not be 100% of the status of that law. Certainly, there is scope for uncertainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?"
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:11 AM

DMcG I think that could safely be added to the "Broken Government Pledges" I seem to recall we were told that our rights would not be affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

Could well be that the partisan supreme court may not exist much longer.
That is the great beauty of having a majority. No one can stop it.
That will get the lefties squealing on twitter and farecebook.
More popcorn please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 02:42 PM

uk governments - usually tory - have supported over 90% of EU laws and proposed many of them. why would there be any need to amend or scrap them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:41 PM

It's over 95% actually, Pete, and most of them have been arrived at by consensus. When you consider that it's consensus by 28 countries, that's pretty good going. It's because almost all of those regulations were common sense, and you can bet your life that we'll stick with almost all of them when we leave. We'll have to see whether chlorinated chickens and GM beef stuffed with illegal hormones will also be spun to us as common sense.

And, up 'til now, we've had the power of veto over any major changes we don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:23 AM

A 2012 scientific opinion by European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) recommends changes to the EU’s own meat inspection procedures, criticizing its efforts for detecting and controlling Campylobacter and Salmonella in chicken meat. Regarding chemical intervention, the opinion further states that “chemical substances in poultry are unlikely to pose an immediate or acute health risk for consumers.”19This followed the release of 2011 guidelines issued by the international food safety organization Codex Alimentarius Commission (Codex) for the control of Campylobacter and Salmonella in chicken meat.20 These Codex guidelines cover, among other types of production controls, the use of certain hazard-based control measures, including acidified sodium chlorite and trisodium phosphate, among other antimicrobial rinses and oxidants.

In the view of the United States. the EC measures appear to be inconsistent with the EC's WTO obligations, including, but not limited to, the following:

    SPS Agreement Articles 2.2, 5, and 8, and Annex C(1);
   
    GATT 1994 Articles X:1 and XI:1;
   
    Agriculture Agreement Article 4.2; and
   
    TBT Agreement Article 2.

According to the United States, the EC measures also appear to nullify or impair the benefits accruing to the United States directly or indirectly under the cited agreements. (2009)
As far as I am aware the dispute is still ongoing.
The US is the second biggest exporter of chicken in the world, after Brazil. Up until 1997 the US chicken exports to EU were worth 300,000$
Perhaps there is a whiff of protectionism involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:48 AM

Unsupported tosh

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:43 AM

Unsupported? I alwways post facts!
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/ds389_e.htm

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40199.pdf

Tosh? That is for experts to determine. Sometimes lefties take their sense of entitlement just too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:59 AM

Well boys and girls that served it's purpose. We now know that this is based on a complaint from the USA to the WTO about EU regulations.

Now just who has a vested interest in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:08 AM

Sorry got sidetracked I will be back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:18 AM

"Chicken meat, says the report, is also an important source of Enteritidis infections. Last December, the FSIS reported that 22% of establishments that produce chicken parts failed to meet the Salmonella performance standard. The percentage of samples of chicken meat and intestinal contents that yielded Enteritidis were similar in 2018 compared to those during 2015-7.
"Poultry-and-eggs-remain-the-major-source-of-food-poisoning-in-the-US

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:22 AM

Good to see Thornberry has her hat in the ring for the leadership of the Labour party.
Let me see now. Was she not fired for tweeting her contempt for the "white van Man"?

Ths is better than the muppet show! Guarantees a few more decades in the wilderness for labour.

Obviously lessons learnt and ideology do nor mix. Brill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 09:35 AM

Jeremy Corbyn was left humiliated in the House of Commons today as he was jeered by Tory MPs for claiming Boris Johnson's Brexit deal will result in maggots in orange juice.
(Worzel appears to be losing it. Must be time to put him back in the allotment so he can converse with turnips.)

Meanwhile 4 wrecking amendments were placed before the house to wreck Bojo's Brexit deal.

Needless to say the new speaker treated them with the contempt they deserved, and ignored them.
The Commons is expected to approve the second reading of Mr Johnson's WAB - the legislation needed to make an orderly Brexit on January 31 happen - in its final act before the Christmas break.

With Mr Johnson now commanding a majority of 80 following his thumping election win last week, the WAB is expected to sail through after every Tory MP was required to sign up in writing to support it.
No more burkes allowed in the tory ranks, only berks.

Ijus hope he presents his legislation in an unsinkable fashion so the meddling millar cannot fight it. It is time to declare her a vexatious litigant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 09:44 AM

All the literate bits of the 09.35 AM post were copied and pasted from the Daily Mail without attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 10:48 AM

It would be nice if you would make it clear who you're referring to,

Perhaps he is merely following the lead of the opposition turnip!

It would be nice if you distinguished between fact,fiction or merely whimsy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 09:50 AM

There are TOO MANY UK POLITICAL THREADS GOING on this American folk and blues music site. These things repel users and the fighting bleeds into other threads. Constrain yourselves to one thread.