BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM

Benn was on The World At One. He made it crystal clear that the EU has to accept any proposal before it can be put to any sort of meaningful vote in the Commons. I suppose that getting the House to show that it supports the deal might be seen by leavers to be putting pressure on the EU to accept. That won't work. The EU wants see Ireland fully protected and that there is a cast-iron guarantee that there can never be a border any more restrictive than the present one. The proposal fails on these accounts. Two weeks to go, Bozo, then the law of the land will tell you what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 09:26 AM

The European Parliament has said that Johnson's proposals are not even remotely acceptable and that it would veto any attempt to turn them into a deal. So that's that. Boris, you'll be writing that letter. But first, just watch how he spends the next two weeks engineering his way towards making the EU seeming to get all the blame. "Our Friends And Partners in Europe simply don't want to Get Brexit Done..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM

Johnson's entire border proposals are based on 'trust me, I'm a Prime Minister'
Corbyn describes it (accurately) as being "worse than May's")
It is doubtful that the Irish Government will accept it; hopefully the EU will kick it into touch
The now minority DUP have welcomed it - as they would
This is dangerously playing with Irish and British lives for a move that is already flushing the British economy down the pan
The seriously sick patients really are running the asylum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 12:57 PM

It looks like Johnson's "new" proposals are dead in the water. The ERG, the EU and the opposition all seem to ridicule it.

So that's his own side, the legal opposition in the House of Parliament and the people he is supposed to be negotiating with.

It will be very interesting to see how he attempts to circumvent the law on the land in the next two weeks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 01:16 PM

"It looks like Johnson's "new" proposals are dead in the water."
Both Varadkar and the EU executive have indicated that they are prepared to negotiate changes to the proposals
If the bulling mindless homophobic moron who claims to speak for the English people stands is anything to go by - they don't stand a chance
A perfect summing up of English historical arrogant racism
Just what broken Britain needs at present
How long are we going to have to put up with this ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 03:53 PM

we need a different government quickly, a National government but once again the liberals have messed this up

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 04:17 PM

The trouble is, Dick, that all the opposition parties are far too intent on watching their arses and fretting about "how they'll be seen" than worrying about the best interests of the country. Jostling for political advantage, as they see it, is a sickness of our system, unfortunately. The LibDems are the worst of the lot. Swinson has made such vicious attacks on Corbyn in the last couple of weeks that she's burned all her bridges as far as retaining any chance of getting together to defeat Johnson is concerned. It's idiocy. At least the SNP have made overtures of a sort. It used to be the left factions that could never get their acts together. Oddly, the divisions in Labour have been kept pretty well under wraps for a little while. I wish that could spread to opposition parties in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 05:04 PM

I am reading "Invisible Women" which has recently won the Royal Society science book prize. There are many interesting observations, but this one is very relevant to our discussion.. The 70,71,72,73 are references which I have not copied here, but have left as evidence these statements are not just pulled out of the air:

British politicians like to boast (particularly in the run-up to the EU referendum) that the UK offers a 'more generous' maternity leave than the fourteen weeks mandated by the EU’s 1992 Pregnant Workers Directive. 69 This is technically true, but it doesn’t mean that women in the UK get a good deal in comparison to their European counterparts. The average length of paid maternity leave across the EU is twenty-two weeks. 70 This figure hides substantial regional variation in both pay and length. Croatia offers thirty weeks at full pay, compared to the UK’s offering of thirty-nine weeks at an average of 30% pay. In fact a 2017 analysis placed the UK twenty-second out of twenty-four European countries on the length of 'decently paid maternity leave' it offered its female workforce (1.4 months). And now that Britain is leaving the EU, the country is likely to fall even further below its European neighbours. Since 2008, the EU has been trying to extend its maternity-leave ruling to twenty weeks on full pay. This proposal was stuck in stalemate for years, and finally abandoned in 2015 thanks in no small part to the UK and its business lobby, which campaigned strenuously against it. 72 Without the UK, the women of the EU will be free to benefit from this more progressive leave allowance. Meanwhile Martin Callanan (now a Brexit minister) made a speech to the European Parliament in 2012 in which he included the Pregnant Workers Directive in his list of the 'barriers to actually employing people' which 'we could scrap'. 73


Perez, Caroline Criado. Invisible Women (pp. 79-80). Random House. Kindle Edition.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 04:07 AM

How long are we going to have to put up with this ?

Howsabout until Samhain!

Interestingly Halloween takes its roots from the Samhain Eve, when it was believed that the link between the worlds of living and dead was at its strongest.

We valiant Brexiteers intend to ensure that bonds between the EU and Great Britain thenceforth are at their weakest.

apposite or wot??

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 04:09 AM

I watched Question Time last night with a growing feeling of frustrated anger while the best of the speaker continue to miss the opportunity of pointing out that The Brexit Vote was as far from democratic as you can possibly get
The vote was won using Populisim - by appealing to people's basic fears and prejudices in the way Powell tried to when he was disgraced out of politics
That's what rejected, racist would-be politician did with his hate poster and that is what Johnson is doing now as a career move by an otherwise unelectable leader
It is extremely dangerous to attempt to equate this with democracy - it is exactly the opposite
THat is what needs to be emphasised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 04:57 AM

Rory Stewart to stand down at next election

Yes, he's a Tory who is in favour of many things I disagree with. Nevertheless, I think this is a loss to 'the body politic'. We need thoughtful MPs, even if we disagree with them, not 'rubber stamps'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 05:55 AM

Rory Stewart to stand down at next election
Yes, he's a Tory who is in favour of many things I disagree with.

Ex-Tory, surely.
Even the Guardian and The BBC make that clear when giving the same news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 05:58 AM

"It looks like Johnson's "new" proposals are dead in the water."
Both Varadkar and the EU executive have indicated that they are prepared to negotiate changes to the proposals

Surely not "dead in the water" if, as you say both Varadker & the EU executive are prepared to use them as a basis for negotiation. That is what Boris said when putting them forward.
If they were "dead in the water" then Varadker and the EU would have dismissed them out-of-hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 06:44 AM

I you insist on ex-Tory, fine. I meant it more in terms of values than formal membe4ship, as in his statement:
It’s always difficult to run against your own party. It’s been a painful journey for me. I suppose it was really crystallised when I had the Conservative whip removed.

I’ve been proud to be a member of the Conservative party. There are many values I share with it. I parted company largely over Brexit and the tone of the party

There is a significant proportion of the population that has Tory values and always votes Tory, but has never been a formal member. I think it fair to refer to them as Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

I should add that my purpose in posting about Rory Stewart was less to pass on news than to express my regret, even though I disagree on many things, and to say that losing such people weakens Parliament, in my view. I don't think either the BBC or Sky publicised my regret :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 06:59 AM

I’m in agreement with you, DMcG. I’ve always regarded Rory Stewart as ‘The Decent Face of Conservatism’. They could do with a few more like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM

i'm just listening to radio scotland and hear that according to UK govt lawyers they will apply for an extension if there is no deal by halloween. sounds like a change of policy - but who knows what is going on. rory stewart going for london mayor. that's a shame for him - i'm sure he would be happier wandering around cumbria and the debatable lands. he must be more ambitious than he likes to appear. i wonder if he is hoping to be asked to lead a temporary government = presumably Johnson is about to resign rather than be 'dead in a ditch' before asking for an extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 09:15 AM

I can't see how the current 'No comment' from number 10 can last, given the apparent conflict between what Johnson told the party - and the public - and what he is promising the courts. Steve Baker's comments notwithstanding, the PM is not simply saying he will obey the law by seeking an extension, since the law requires him to ask and accept it in some cases, and in others to bring the length of extension back to the House. The PM might be hoping the EU suggests a different period which would allow him to get it back to the House where he has at least a chance of getting it rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM

"If they were "dead in the water" then Varadker and the EU would have dismissed them out-of-hand."
No they wouldn't Nigel =- neither of them work like that because they can't afford to
The Good Friday Agreement hangs in the balance, which concerns Varadkar very much and Europe isn't the monolithic Bloc that ouy people dishonestly depict it - they can dismiss nothing out of hand without consulting the rest of the twenty off members
Only Britain is acting like a sulky teenager threatening to leave home unless they are given their way
Brexit was decided by asking a people to b=vote on something without being given a game plan for the future or being kept up to date with the possible and now obvious consequences - that is how Populism works
It is equivalent to sending a blindfolded man into a dark room to put a cross on a piece of paper, then holding him to the end result without him being allowed to reconsider
SFA democratic about that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:21 PM

Johnson found to be lying through his teeth again
A document from Downing Street states that if no deal is reached
Johnson will write to the EU and request an extension of the deadline, but he has just tweeted that there will be no delay and Britain will crash out if there is no deal
He appears to be trying to influence the outcome of the court case taking place over obeying The Benn Act - result will be announced early next week
Dominic Grieve has stated that if Johnson refuses to obey the Benn act the Queen will be left with no alternative but to sack him - he would "be gone within five minutes".
Aren't they using The Tower of London for criminals any more - bleedin' shame !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:26 PM

Well, well, well, what a surprise!
"Brexit: Boris Johnson moves to scrap environment safeguards to get deal with Trump"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:38 PM

I'm appalled having just escaped the worst of Huricane Lorenzo - Donegal wasn't so lucky)
This seems to be par for the course for dealing with Trump
Hope nobody mentions The Isle of Wight in his presence !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 01:42 PM

He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM

Liz Truss, the international trade secretary, said scrapping the protections was "vital for giving us the freedom and flexibility to strike new trade deals and become more competitive"

I wonder who will be the first to insist that scrapping the protections is what 17.4 million demanded?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

Brexit was decided by asking a people to b=vote on something without being given a game plan for the future or being kept up to date with the possible and now obvious consequences - that is how Populism works

The referendum was a binary decision. In or out.
It actually has absolutely nothing to do with populism. I explained this carefully earlier today but like so many of my posts it was deleted.
I am not going to waste my time explaining it again.

If Mps think they can can totally ignore their electorate, it is hardly surprising the electorate feel disregarded.
The originator of this novel concept, Burke, found that when he presented the good burghers of Bristol with this outrageous idea they promptly told him to get on his bike.

This will be brought home to a number of MPs with a vengeance when they finally have to succumb to a general election. They will find playing their electorate for fools has only one outcome. As Roddy Stewert would have found out. But he jumped before he was pushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 02:29 PM

That should of course been Rory Stewert, not Rod. It is very bad form to confuse a singer with a clown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 19 - 03:23 PM

THIS WON BREXIT
THIS WAS THE IMMEDIATE RESULT
THIS WAS THE WARNING
THIS IS HOW IT IS STILL HAPPENING

That was to nobody in particular but it's good to have the opportunity to remind people - lest they forget
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 09:01 AM

it's good to have the opportunity to remind people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn addressed a crowd of thousands of Labour supporters at Newcastle City Hall on Saturday night


No one should read too much into a single event, and these are largely party members, but this suggests claims that Corbyn has been rejected by the voters may be premature.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about that, DMcG. He was written off last time, derided for seven weeks of an election campaign by sneery Tories and almost all the media, was going to hand the Tories a majority 140 seats, etc, then went on to effectively nobble the complacent Theresa May by removing her majority. Europe always takes Tory scalps and I see no reason to think it'll be any different this time.

Interesting Moral Maze on Radio 4 last night. They were discussing for part of the programme the anger surrounding brexit. Well, before the referendum there was no anger about the EU, just the usual low-key rumblings from little-England ne'er-do-wells. All the anger started to be whipped up in a disreputable referendum campaign, thereafter compounded by three years of squabbling after an extremely divisive result. The anger may have been an unintended consequence initially, but brexiteer politicians have not be slow to keep pouring petrol on the flames.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

Been slow

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM

THOUGHT I'D SHARE THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

Best nickname for BoJo. The greased albino piglet :-)

Invented by left wing opponents? No, his Tory colleagues!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 10:20 AM

"Invented by left wing opponents? No, his Tory colleagues!"
Like the female ones who say they wouldn't trust him to drive them home at night
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:34 AM

Things are quiet on the thread at the moment, so here's one way that Johnson could resolve the conflict between obeying the Benn bill and leaving on 31st October.

1. He writes the letter (making plain he is under duress, probably)

2. He persuades the EU to offer any other date for the extension than the default in the bill. Doesn't matter what.

3. Obeying the bill, he has to bring the changed date back for parliamentary approval

4. ..And gets the house to reject that date. Then he is free to 'no-deal' having obeyed the law at all points.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 04:25 AM

https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/xr-bj.gif?resize=540%2C382&ssl=1

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:19 PM

A report in the Guardian gives the EU bullet point dismissal of the Governments "proposals" to solve the issue of the "backstop"

It would seem that the UK governments proposals were written on the back of a fag packet.

Could someone please link to the article "Revealed: the EU's point by point rejection of Johnson's Brexit plan."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

There you go

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM

Thank you Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM

"Jennifer, did you have an affair with Boris?"

"Not tellin'. Ask me something different..."

"Jennifer, did you or did you not have an affair with Boris?"

"Ain't sayin'. Though I did go to his flat five...or was it ten...times..."

Jennifer, it looks like you had an affair with Boris and that it did you no harm (to say the least). Anything to say?"

"It's beneath my dignity to answer..."

.....................................................................................................................

Thing is, Jennifer, you could just have said "no." But you didn't...

"Boris, did you have an affair with Jennifer?"

"Let's talk about schools, the police and the NHS..."


Let's not, Boris. Let's talk about corruption instead...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

Why not talk about brexit?
Attempted Character Assassination of Boris merely increases his support base. What he does in his private life is his affair.
More pathetic ad hominem attacks by remainiacs.
How about giving us a list of benefits of staying in the EU:
1)United states of Europe?
2)Parliament reduced to a franking machine?
3)Repeated referendums,until the right result is obtained e.g. Ireland
4)Attempted territorial claims on northern Ireland and Gibralter
5)A common foreign policy
6)etc.etc

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 07:19 AM

""Boris, did you have an affair with Jennifer?"
This really does ssom to have struck a raw nerve with the Boris Bumcrawlers anxious to sew it under the carpet, doesn't it ?
Lovely cartoon in this morning Times of Herr Johnson's Pole dancer, clinging to his rapidly growing upturned nose as if it is one of her phallic props
Lurvely

Nic to see both of the world's top madman in deep trouble - Boris for paying for sex with Londoners' taxes and Trump having to turn over his tax returns - two for the price of one
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-pole-dancing-pal-20324827
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 07:49 AM

I wonder what part of ad hominem little jimmie cannot understand.
Talk about flogging a dead horse

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM



Unhappy farmers

Two groups that it is often claimed were very pro Brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 09:39 AM

Ah, I screwed up the fishing link. Try again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 10:11 AM

It seems betrayal has become a commy trait of those most ready to use the terms "betrayal" and "traitor" Johnson's Junta ahe happily betraying the fishing and Farming industry in Britain and Trump is selling out the Kurds in Syria
I'm not sure they're not the same individual holding down two jobs

FECKED IF I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:05 PM

Interesting Snippet. A YouGov analysis of 300 surveys shows firm evidence that Britain has turned away from Brexit since 2016 according to a report by Nicholas Cecil in the Evening Standard.

"One of the most striking findings is that 204 out of 226 since July 2017 have shown Remain ahead with just seven for leave and 15 ties."

"So far this year, just one poll has put leave ahead compared with 74 for staying in the EU"

Interesting indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM

Could someone please link to the article in the Evening Standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:16 PM

4000 by the way