BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:58 PM

Calls from people to Iains to give a link are fine, if they provide links for their statements as well.

It appears Iains may be relying on the following from Economics help:
Disadvantages of a customs union
•A country can't negotiate separate deals because there is a common external tariff. This reduces economic and national sovereignty. Critics of the EU argue it has meant the UK has experienced higher food prices and reduced the welfare of low-income consumers who face higher prices.•It is worth noting – Deals can be struck if they respect the common external tariff. Turkey is in a partial EU customs union so is free to negotiate deals in other areas like agriculture where it is not bound by its customs union arrangement.

•A country cannot give preferential tariffs to a declining industry. For example, if UK steel industry was having difficulty the government might like to put tariffs on imports to protect domestic sales, however, in a customs union you can't choose to have this separate tariff.
•Trade diversion. A common external tariff can lead to trade diversion. For example, when UK joined EEC, it had to raise tariffs on imports from the Commonwealth. This means higher prices for imports of butter and lamb.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 06:02 PM

The Cooper law is not yet agreed fully, but if it is I understand that obliges Teresa May to ask the EU for an extension.

I wonder what the consequence is if she decides not to? No penalty for breaking the law is defined, as far as I know. Being in contempt of Parliament had no effect. So what actually would be the consequence?

I was also trying to think of a precedent for a law that only applies to one person. There can't be many.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:58 PM

Top Cat.


Oops, did I interpret those initials wrong...? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:08 PM

”Say pretty please and I might give you some links, as you seem incapable of carrying out a simple internet search.”

Not incapable at all - I was working in IT programming on mainframes when you were still in the ACF - but I’m not wasting my time trawling through Right-Wing-Extremist garbage hunting for stuff that you’re too bone-idle, socially-inept, and plain, simple unprofessional to provide links to.

So you carry on belly-dancing, and I’ll have a good belly-laugh at a dozy, thick squaddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:01 PM

Good to see the Nero d'Avola at £5.50, Dave, after the price hike to £6.50. A little beauty it is. Nirvana.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM

Are you going to answer a direct question, Squaddie? Short memory, or bare-faced liar, or (more likely) both?

I expect it’ll just be more barrack-room bully-boy tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:14 PM

oh, I know which Right-Wing-Extremist he dug it up from, Jim. Meaningless Righty-Confirmation-Bias.

He’s an even better wriggler than ol’ Keefy was - never answers a question, just obfuscates. I wonder if he’s a closet Belly-Dancer?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:05 PM

"Source? Try google!"
He means he made it up - sorry - too inventive - Guido made it up and decided he woudn't get away with it
Seargant Majors always aspire to be "offices and gentlemen - too thick to be real officers so they end up with power and no real authority
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

An honest man - especially one who makes claims to have been ‘an officer and a gentleman’ - would be prepared to substantiate what he claims as facts.

No accreditation - more Right-Wing-Extremist nonsense, not even worth reading.

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

Source? Try google! One of your cabal expects us to take all his warblings on trust. He has never provided a link in his life.

irritating isn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 12:43 PM

”The nitty gritty of Mays betrayal!
" Inside a customs union, “we would have to open up our markets to the third countries with which the EU had trade agreements, but the markets of such third countries would not be open to our exports since we would be outside the EU. And such third countries would have few incentives to sign trade agreements with us since their goods would already enjoy free access”.”

Source?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM

The nitty gritty of Mays betrayal!
" Inside a customs union, “we would have to open up our markets to the third countries with which the EU had trade agreements, but the markets of such third countries would not be open to our exports since we would be outside the EU. And such third countries would have few incentives to sign trade agreements with us since their goods would already enjoy free access”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 11:06 AM

Well Pete, you may be right, but this isn't over until its over. The fight goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 10:26 AM

Funny, for almost three years we've been told that a majority is a majority no matter how small and now the same person is bleating because they lost of a small majoity.

Good eh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 10:22 AM

A belter of an editorial in the Independent.

Drunk on their warped sense of nationalism, now Brexiteers are fighting for no deal "just because"

One of the many gems - So twice a day he appears on television, is asked for a comment and growls: “A customs union would make all our chickens explode. I could take on Portugal on my own, because when I was in the territorial army I marched three miles round Dorking one Saturday. Denmark is more horrible than an ostrich in your toilet. The only single market I’d vote for is one that sold fruit and veg and every morning shoved a grapefruit up Jean-Claude Juncker’s arse and made him dance the polka.”

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 10:14 AM

Why should we be cross? We either leave (on less than ideal terms) or we contest the EU and subsequent UK elections and obtain a far stronger mandate for our full departure in the future.
A little early for crowing by remainiacs methinks!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 09:48 AM

"sadly, brexit is going to happen - why are the exiters so cross? "
Probably, but don't confuse annoyance for political ambition
Theer has been a power struggle going on for several years now
I'm not sure how funny a fargmented nation without a government and with a rapidly rising extremist right using those of d different ethnich origin as stepping stones to powe - ancally is
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 09:39 AM

sadly, brexit is going to happen - why are the exiters so cross? it is irritating that we are taking so long to sort out the details - but they could cheer up! 'what are we like, us daft old brits - it's been a right mix-up and no mistake but we got through it and we can have a good old laugh about it now'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 08:08 AM

May asking for an extension till June - Tuske has d=suggested a year-long delay with the option for Britain to leave whenever they have a majority in parliament
To reprated the phrase borrowed from others because the borrower hasn't the imagination to come up with something of his own "you could not make this up"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:57 AM

After nearly three years of the Tories making a complete pigs ear of brexit I find it hilarious that the brexitaliban are now trying to shift the blame to a single ex-Labour MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:46 AM

You have to weep when you realise Brexit was destroyed by a majority of one in Parliament. A vote cast by a criminal wearing a tag, convicted of   perjury and perverting the course of justice.

THIS you could not make up!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

Light relief
An article in this morning's Times suggests that, if you buy a sandwich in Derry and eat it in Donegal you would be guilty of smuggling
It boggles to think that if you buy it and eat it in Derry then travel to Donegal and have a crap, you would become a 'sandwich mule'
You 'ave to larf, dont'cha ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:58 AM

I'm fine with piss, shit, arse, tits, nuts, fanny and cock, if used wittily and appropriately, but I won't put my effin' and jeffin' in print, that's all (I'm good at it down the pub, mind). I'm not that prissy!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

Incidentally - I've learned to regard each uncontrollable outburst of abuse as a 'touché' - (a racist one counts as two) a handy thing to keep in mind
Perhaps we might set up a scoreboard with pints for prizes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:36 AM

”This man is not worth the snot from your nose.”

That’s a nice turn of phrase. But, personally, I prefer “The steam off your piss”, though I do understand how that one may infringe Steve’s personal ‘no bad language’ red-line. Only slightly though! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:26 AM

Thanks Steve
Beyond me why he is allowed to remain
Somebody Up there Likes Him (my favourite Paul Newman film)
Don't sink to his level - that gives hin an excuse to go on - he knows why he behaves why he does - part of his job description
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 04:12 PM

Jim, you need a complete reset. This man is not worth the snot from your nose. Recognise it and laugh him off. Let me be the second person in this thread to seriously question his sanity. Actually, I don't think it needs a question. Ignore everything he posts, let him rattle around on his own and make himself miserable. No-one here takes him seriously and he has no influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 11:22 AM

Whoops!
Ireland DITCHES Britain as less than HALF of Irish firms register for no deal trade
LESS than half of the 84,000 Irish companies that trade with Britain have registered for a customs number to continue doing so after Brexit.

brexit
The Irish tax authority has warned business in the Republic could be cut off (Image: GETTY)

This revelation has triggered an intervention from the Irish tax authority which has warned business in the Republic could be cut off if Britain leaves the EU without a deal. Given close trading links to its nearest neighbour, Irish customs officials are braced for a 12-fold rise in the number of import and export declarations made by local companies if Britain leaves the European Union's customs union. With Britain at risk of crashing out of the EU as soon as next week, Ireland's Office of the Revenue Commissioners and government urged firms to apply for an Economic Operators Registration and Identification (EORI) number, which will be needed to continue to move goods to, from or through the UK. Irish Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe said on Twitter: “IMPORTANT: Businesses trading with UK will need an EORI customs number in a no deal Brexit.
Brexit: Varadkar warns no deal ‘particularly difficult’ for Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:40 AM

Labour chaps and chapesses can pay informal visits to the Brussels top brass to explain their take on things but they can't negotiate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:48 AM

"If Jim wants to increase the scope of the question maybe he would like to ask his own, "
I have done from day one - why haven't people been given the right to confirm that they want to leave now the consequences of doing so have become clearer
Maybe you would like to answer it (any of the Brexiteers present, that is)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:45 AM

For clarity, let me remind you all that when May gave her recent announcement on 2nd April , she said:

"However, if we cannot agree on a single unified approach, then we would instead agree a number of options for the Future Relationship that we could put to the House in a series of votes to determine which course to pursue."


It is this "number of options" that will be put to the house before 10th April we are discussing. So "the Labour deal" is probably essentially that put before the house already. There will probably be no further explicit negotiation of it with the EU before then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:31 AM

"If Labour were in a position of power, these points would constitute the Political Declaration."

...assuming that they had been negotiated with and agreed to by the EU, of course. Can't think they wouldn't have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:27 AM

The notion that May's deal is a remain deal is totally crackpot.

I would put a 1 next to revoke and nothing alongside the others. I wouldn't state any kind of preference whatsoever for any outcome that is inevitably going to damage the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:21 AM

There's no such thing as a "Labour deal" because, in this context, deals are made between two parties after negotiation, which is what Labour has not been involved with. But Labour has clearly and frequently expressed its aspirations for brexit, as follows:

— A permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU.that would deliver the frictionless trade that our businesses, workers and consumers need, and is the only viable way to ensure there is no hard border on the island of Ireland.

— Close alignment with the EU single market with shared institutions and obligations.

— Dynamic alignments on rights and protections so that the U.K. cannot undercut Brussels rules.

— Clear commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programs.

— Unambiguous agreements that cover the detail of future security arrangements, for example shared databases used to solve and prevent crime, plus the European Arrest Warrant.

If Labour were in a position of power, these points would constitute the Political Declaration. As they are not in power and as these points have not been subjected to negotiation and agreement with the EU, that's the best we can can currently get from Labour, a set of demands not set in stone. You simply can't set them alongside the Tory version by way of direct comparison as one is a wish list, easily modified, and the other is a negotiated agreement. But anyone who doesn't see them as a clear enough set of alternative aspirations expressed by the Opposition has me scratching my head. You don't have to agree with them but that's no reason to deny that they exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:17 AM

Steve Shaw: or get her to agree to put her deal (or whatever version of it they come up with) to the country in another referendum. Her deal or remain.
But as most of those in favour of Brexit look on Mrs May's deal as BRINO (Brexit in name only) you would suggest putting to the public a referendum where the only two options were to remain in the EU. That would be a victory for Remain whatever the result.
As the Leave campaign won the first referendum, any further referendum would have to include an option which clearly got us out of the EU.

Would you, Steve, give us your opinion on how you would answer DMcG' question?

Let's take that a stage further. According to rumour one of the things the cabinet discussed was using alternative votes for the government indicative votes with these options:

A: May's Deal
B: Labour's Deal
C: No deal
D: Revoke.

(No doubt with an amendable bill a second referendum and Malthouse compromise would be proposed as amendments, but they were not options being suggested.)


As an MP, you have to rank them. No option to say you would rather do something else, that's what's on the order paper. What would your order be?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:59 AM

Apropos of the meetings between May and Corbyn, there are just two ways in which Jeremy can come out of this unscathed: walk away, and soon, or get her to agree to put her deal (or whatever version of it they come up with) to the country in another referendum. Her deal or remain. Anything that alters her deal simply in order to get it through Parliament makes him the brexit midwife (a phrase not of my invention). Walk away or force a referendum, Jezza. And I hate referendums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:58 AM

DMcG:
But if Nigel and Iains are typical, revoke could give a much stronger showing than that if it survived the first round.

I put 'Revoke' in second place on the basis that Mrs May's 'deal' leaves us worse off than we were before, and the Labour Party deal has never been spelt out, but is not likely to be any improvement over Mrs may's deal.

If we can't get out with either a good deal, or with WTO terms, then at least revoking Article 50 will leave us in the position we were in prior to June 2016. We would have the opportunity to issue Article 50 again at a later date, after all the ramifications had been fully discussed, and an intended way forward in place.

As for a second referendum (which might become necessary if Article 50 was revoked). You didn't ask about it so I didn't respond (as you clearly stated).

If Jim wants to increase the scope of the question maybe he would like to ask his own, or at least give his response to your original one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:20 AM

Bastard is a response to your lying (as you have done in denying your persistent and obvious racism)
Hardly a derogatorty nickname, especially when it is an accurate description
A reminder of what you denied saying
and of course the returning traffic carrying 40% of the food to Claire will face the exact same problems- THAT should wipe the smirk off your face! >
Enough I think - I've allowed you to show yourself up quite adequately - one can take only so much recreation in one day
Move on - nothing to be seen here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

peteaberdeen you are right about the "none of this matters anyway".
Collapse of Earth and climate for human needs are proceeding with more far reaching events and effects than Brexit and political intrigue.
6,000 years from now a mosquito fart will have more importance than Brexit stupidity.
Brexit is one of a million dominos lined up and ready to fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 08:12 AM

It's just been announced that The DUP has accused the government of being about to do a U-turn on a second referendum - not sure what they are basing that on - fingers crossed though

"one particularly irritating habit is to give other posters supposedly derogatory 'nicknames' - pete"
Stopped doing that a long time ago - at Joe Offer's request
Can't do much about my typos unless I cut my typing speed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:37 AM

one particularly irritating habit is to give other posters supposedly derogatory 'nicknames' - pete

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM

"The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet"
I was not referring to your list, but to the fact that a second referendum is not being considered as an option by any of the Brexiteers
One of the things that has become quite clear about the necessity of one is that i has now become quite obvious that it is not in Britain's either short or long term interests to leave Europe - the Statement by the had of the Bank of England yesterday has confirmed that
To go ahead knowing this would be economic and social suicide, so the people need to be allowed to confirm their wishes

Pater
I wouldn't take too much notice of someone incapable of admitting that 'bog=trotter' and 'Plastic Paddy' are long standing offensive racist terms especially as he is the only user of them on this Forum
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:30 AM

"The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet"
I was not referring to your list, but to the fact that a second referendum is not being considered as an option by any of the Brexiteers
One of the things that has become quite clear about the necessity of one is that i has now become quite obvious that it is not in Britain's either short or long term interests to leave Europe - the Statement by the had of the Bank of England yesterday has confirmed that
To go ahead knowing this would be economic and social suicide, so the people need to be allowed to confirm their wishes

Pater
I wouldn't take too much notice of someone incapable of admitting that 'bog=trotter' and 'Plastic Paddy' are long standing offensive racist terms especially as he is the only user of them on this Forum
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM

i have tried to ignore iain, he's just so offensive, and clearly happy to be defined that way. now i'm starting to be a little concerned about his sanity -he doesn't come across as very happy. once we get into quoting old testament stuff (not sure for what purpose here) that way proper madness lies.

(deuteronomy 24 reckons that if you have a disobedient child you should take him to the edge of the village and stone him to death. and don't even get him started on the horrors of shellfish or wearing mixed fibres...)

anyway, seriously iain- lighten up, none of this matters really...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:03 AM

If I do read Iains correctly as implying 'revoke' as his second choice like Nigel, that is quite a revelation to me and, I suspect, to cabinet. I am sure their strategy is that because Cherry's amendment did so badly, and because of shouts of "denying democracy", the cabinet assumed revoke would end up in last place in the first round and was only put in as a sop. Since they are the larger party, May's deal is likely to win out over a Labour proposal. So I think they are fairly confident May's deal would win in an Alternative Vote play-off. But if Nigel and Iains are typical, revoke could give a much stronger showing than that if it survived the first round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:56 AM


DMcG I would have thought I made my position quite clear


Nothing like as clear as putting A, B, C and D in some order, Iains. Are you saying you have the same order as Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:50 AM

Can't imagine anything more stupid than denying racism by using racist abuse - every bit as stupid as denying the threatening nature of Brexit with your usual anonymous abusive web-creeping would-be bullying
Still waiting for examples of my racism. Your last attempt merely made you look rather silly.(a familiar position for you to be in.)
You are losing it jimmie.

What is threatening about carrying out the clearly stated wishes of the majority? Yet again you display your bigotry and stupidity.
Shall I send you copies of the Janet and John books on how to construct a rational argument, or have you yet to progress beyond colouring books?

DMcG I would have thought I made my position quite clear.
No deal or stay in and send an army of wannabe Farages to the EU parliament and fight the good fight from within.
Future elections both in the UK and Europe will clearly show the electorate will not be sidestepped by treachery.
When democracy is being abandoned you are lucky that so far opposition is only words.

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind", which in turn comes from the chapter 8 of the Book of Hosea in the Old Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:41 AM


Hard to notice that the voter's right to confirm their original decision appears nowhere on your list Nigel - Where has all the democracy gone ?

Sorry, Jim, but Nigel is doing exactly what I asked. The second referendum option was not amongst the options purportedly discussed in cabinet so I specifically excluded that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM

Hard to notice that the voter's right to confirm their original decision appears nowhere on youtr list Nigel - Where has all the democracy gone ?
Nobody can remotely claim that things haven't both clarified or changed since the referendum
Some Labour MPs are demanding that second Referendum be a condition of Labour's co-operation - a sign that someone in Parliament understands the term 'democracy'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM

Thanks, Nigel. That is very much what I would have predicted, for you, Iains and Stanron. My biggest uncertainty is where revoke would fit in the rankings for each of you.

I agree there is no real definition of what exactly Labour's deal would be (and as I have before I think no more highly of red unicorns than blue ones), but I think we will all agree it would some form of closer alignment than May is proposing.