BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 PM

Is May a goner after these votes? Who is going to grab the PM position next?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:37 PM

I thought I would have a look at a betting site to see the options, knowing that 30+ names have been suggested.

People are putting money it seems on some odd choices for next Prime Minister. David Cameron, for instance. George Osborne. Chris Grayling (????), Simon Cowell, Tony Blair, Ann Widdecombe, Arron Banks ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:52 PM

Good news for April though. Going to see Stanley Accrington on the 1st to get a good laugh about Btexit and seeing Steeleye Span on the 2nd to forget about this nonsense altogether.

Who says it's all bad :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

BBC live report about 9:55 On 15th May"

 Ms May's hopes of persuading Eurosceptics and the DUP were dealt a hammer blow after the so-called star chamber of Brexiteer lawyers rejected attorney general Geoffrey Cox's latest assessment.

Led by veteran Tory Sir Bill Cash, the group said his idea that the UK could use the Vienna Convention - the international agreement that lays down the rules about treaties - to unilaterally pull out of the backstop was "badly misconceived".

======

It will be even harder to claim something has changed now as justification for Bercow to allow MV3. He will, I an sure, but I think evwryone will try to avoid explaining on what grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

Latest news. Brexit delay could be the end of May.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:29 AM

I said '15 May' in my earlier post. Obviously I meant '15th March'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM

Some of the right wing press is reporting that with the defeat of the amendment calling for a second referendum, this is no longer an option.

This is mindless balderdash. What Brexit (or indeed its revocation) is deciding is the long term relationship between the UK and the EU. A referendum can never BE that: no-one sensibly claimed it could. A second referendum is a mechanism to choose between alternative relationships. It is not, once again, a relationship in itself.

I do not support a second referendum for the same reasons I did not support the first: it is something Parliamentarians should decide. But if they cannot, votes not withstanding, SOME means of deciding is required and a referendum is one of the few choices available.

Also, that part of the press is tends to ignore that the groups arguing for a public vote requested this should not be voted on at this time, and that was clearly stated several times during the debate itself. That, along with some parliamentary rules about amendments led to Labour abstaining en mass.   It takes a deliberate obtuseness to claim this shows there is no support for the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

Actually, we could both be right :)

Or indeed both wrong, such is the clarity of the moment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:17 AM

I think Bercow will have to allow MV3 - it's encoded in the motion that passed yesterday. This from the Guardian at lunchtime Thursday 14th, i.e. before the results were decided:

> Parliament will vote on a motion that sets next Wednesday as the deadline for MPs to pass a Brexit deal. If a deal is passed by then, the government will seek an extension of article 50 until 30 June. But if the deal is not passed by then, the government will need a longer extension, requiring the UK to take part in European elections.

The European Council is meeting on the 21st. So there won't even be time for a MV4. I think that's why Bercow was being so cagey in his wording.

Interesting times...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d432e7a81b83c24fbadf2c94f9e9535a3dd1500c387028be3d06996de64ad150.jpg?w=600&h=261

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:45 AM

This BBC report from about half an hour ago sheds a bit more light. Sort of. A little.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47579033

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:55 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM

And that, my darlings, was post no. 1066.

Hahaha- well observed, Bonnie.

But there is a long way to go to get to 1688...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 08:09 AM

We should dread reaching post 1415, as Agincourt may by then have been avenged...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

We've yet to reach 1984 - sobering thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:36 PM

A feudal gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM

Once again, a Brexiteer blames Remainers

You may remember Tim Martin decided to go round his pubs giving speeches in favour of Brexit. It is *just* possible, is it not, that some remainers decided to drink elsewhere as a consequence? Or that people in general don't want to be lectured when they go out for an evening out?

Pubs in general are not doing well, but for those I have seen, Martin's baby is doing appreciably less well than the average.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 10:38 AM

i see nigel farage and chums have set off from sunderland on an epic march for brexit and freedom. are any mudcatters accompanying the nicotine-stained man frog? can anyone update us on their progress? How many pubs passed so far?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:33 PM

I can't say about any mudcatters, but Nigel Farage has been pretty clear he has no intention of doing it. Photo-ops at the start, end, and perhaps a couple along the way, but the idea of dong the whole thing - no way!

I don't know, but my guess he has left them to it already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:21 PM

May should not bring her deal back to parliament for a third vote until she has pulled her finger out and caught up with ALL the legislative programme that has been on the back burner - including the care act green paper which is nearly 2 years late already. Until then we stay in the EU - NOT NEGOTIABLE.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:04 AM

what a state of confusion, it was never explained to people that the referendum was advisory that parliament had the last say., these people could noit organise a piss up in a brewery

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

“Much unhappiness has come into the world because of bewilderment and things left unsaid.”
? Fyodor Dostoevsky
“It's funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they'll do practically anything you want them to.”
? J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 07:24 AM

Funny to think that she will keep having votes on the same thing until she gets the "right" result. Precisely the sentiment expressed by fear-laden brexiteers when there's a suggestion of another referendum...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:02 AM

I think this will have to be the last vote (which is probably why Bercow didn't make a ruling on it) because the European summit is on the 21st.

For weeks she's cried Wolf. Now there really IS a wolf. And a real bullet in the chamber of the gun she's been holding to the nation's head and spinning (in both senses of the word) round and round.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:42 AM

Well, Steve, as the Brexiteers insist she is a Remainer, I suppose that proves what they claim about remainers and repeat voting ....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: skarpi
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:29 AM

This is the BIGGEST MISTAKE FOR UK EVER , your bank loans are going to cost more , the food is going cost more , everything is going cost more , and the space between the poor and rich are going to get bigger , Iceland may not have EU ..but it´s hard living up here , everything cost so much ...and there is a saying in Iceland , which is : Þetta reddast ,it mean it will be ok some how ? ..but it does not ....if you want to go this there so many things that has to change before you do .

all the best and best of luck
Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

The default position is that we leave on the 29th, deal or no deal. Until the law is physically changed we leave on the 29th.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:27 PM

In the past, laws have gone through the entire process in less than 24 hours. Amending the date if it turns out to be required can be changed by a much simpler process than a new law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:46 AM

Well, the March edition of The New Yorker has a pretty unequivocal view of the idiocy of BrexShit and its supporters, who seem to have completely lost contact with reality and crossed into a parallel universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

"Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit "
Grasping at straws tantamount to "We've dropped you in the klarts but it's too late to do anything about it"
The people who are fighting for this are nutters like
LORD SNOOTY who, with one hand wags the flag and with the other, makes sure his own investments are safe by shifting them out of Britain
It's great to see Dyson and AND HIS FELLOW BREXITEERS doing similar - rats and sinking ship springs to mind.
THIS FELLER ACTUALLY MADE IT A PIECE OF ADVICE
UP TO DATE PICTURE HERE
What a fine mess you and yours've got Britain into Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?

Yes, since you ask. Remember that the Commons have already voted to change the date. That if the date is not changed we get a no deal which the House has also already voted against. That the change has been promised by the Government as part of the debates. That the process is via a statuary instrument, which is not necessarily a new law:

====
Mr Grieve
Just to remind the Secretary of State: there was a second part to the question, which is equally critical. It is that the Government will have to bring a statutory instrument to the House to alter the departure ?date set out in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. In those circumstances, I assume that the Government are undertaking to do exactly that.

Michael Gove
The Prime Minister and others have said that previously, and I am happy to place on the record once again at this Dispatch Box exactly that commitment.
====

Of course, the ERG will do its damnedest to disrupt the will of Parliament as expressed in its earlier votes. I would expect nothing less of them. And the Government's inability to organise anything is a significant risk. But given that it is not rare to get such things through in less than 24hours, certainly it can be done, assuming the EU have agreed an extension date.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 05:31 AM

There is another little subtlety that is easy to overlook. What was agreed last week was that May's deal was this:

===

(2) agrees that, if the House has passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then the Government will seek to agree with the European Union a one-off extension of the period specified in Article 50(3) for a period ending on 30 June 2019 for the purpose of passing the necessary EU exit legislation; and


(3) notes that, if the House has not passed a resolution approving the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship for the purposes of section 13(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 by 20 March 2019, then it is highly likely that the European Council at its meeting the following day would require a clear purpose for any extension, not least to determine its length, and that any extension beyond 30 June 2019 would require the United Kingdom to hold European Parliament elections in May 2019.

===

What is easily missed is that clause (3) applies if the negotiated agreement has not even been put to MV3. Couple this with Hammond's statement:
=======

"We will only bring the deal back if we are confident that enough of our colleagues, and the DUP, are prepared to support it, so that we can get it through parliament. We’re not going to keep presenting it if we haven’t moved the dial," said the chancellor, Philip Hammond.

=======

and the likelihood of asking the EU for a long extension increases significantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM

Whatever they has=ve done in the past they have backed a destructive policy up to the point where they realised who destructive of their own interests and have then done a runner, leaving the country the profess to acting in tehe interests of, up shit's Creel big-time
Since you've resorted to personal insulting again, you are, and always have been a rich man's arse-licker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

These patriots make me howl
They say they love Britain but the thought that British workers might actually have a say in their own lives makes 'em break out in a cold sweat and reach for the shotgun
They claim it is "Anglophobic" to criticise British policy, yet have no problem denigrating elected politics - even at a racist and sexist level, if their politics don't suit
If poor peoplke are in trounble (as in the Grenfel Tower catastrophe) ordinary British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property
Their interest lies in defending the right wing establishment and British big business and the possessions of the wealthy, the British people can go stuff themselves as far as they are concerned - establishment lackeys - the ***** lot of 'em
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:46 AM

Brexit bar

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 11:58 AM

You are still encouraging him, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

British people can go and sleep in the park rather than allow them the use of vacant property.

I think the stupidity of that argument has been robustly refuted innumerable times but you still insist on raising it every 5 minutes.
That says a lot about the person constantly raising the issue.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission

Article 1 of the First Protocol: Protection of property.
Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM

Bercow refuses MV3 without substantial change

I admit this surprises me; I thought he would find a way to let it through. So I am sure we will hear a lot of sound and fury, while May's team is probably relieved as it looked as if they were going to pull it themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:28 PM

Ya beat me to it, DMcG. Here's the Beeb's report:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47614074

I must admit I'm surprised too. Guess the DUP aren't going to get their little moment in the spotlight after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

Mr Cromwell had the rights of it in his speech to Parliament!

20 April 1653, London, England

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place,

which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 12:46 PM

"You are still encouraging him, Jim."
Nah - I'm exposing himn for the eejit he is How does he react to his being exposed - he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time
This really is fun
Now we have the words of a 17th century religious zealot - gets better and better
Think I'll leave it there - he's done what I wanted tyo do far better than I ever could
State dick-suckers, the lot of them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:04 PM

From the BBC's Assistant Political Editor. Says it all.

Speaker's decision is:
- Good for Brexiteers cos it makes No Deal more likely.
- Good for Remainers cos it makes long delay more likely.
The only big loser is... the PM.

Anybody fancy a Kit-Kat?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 01:13 PM

he pulls out yet another example of the establishment defending property over the welfare of the British people - profit before people every time

Actually it is the EU protecting people's rights. I carefully explained this to you above. ............... Oh Dear !!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 02:14 PM

Constitutional crisis
Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times
Wonder if any brewery is looking for anybody to organise piss-ups - don't look here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 03:00 PM

Constitutional crisis
Berkow has ruled that it would be unconstitutional to vote on the same bill three times

Hardly a crisis! Bercow had wide support from both sides of the house and acted within clearly stated precedents from Erskine May that date back to the 1600's.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:24 PM

I'm getting a bit sick of Laura bloody Kuenssberg's obvious bias. She insinuated strongly on the Beeb news that Bercow has "gone beyond his remit," leaning on her possibly unjustified assertion that that is a widespread view in the Commons (has she done a poll?), when he manifestly has done no such thing. I bet the Mail's headline writers will have a field day tomorrow, and, while they won't bother, they could claim to have her onside. She sure is a worthy successor to the right-wing Nick Robinson. And I can hardly wait for Andrew Neil on Thursday night...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:57 PM

John Bercow has clearly made the only possible ruling that is allowed. He'll never get his peerage from a Tory government now, but then maybe there won’t be one around for long.

One suggested way round would be to prorogue the session, and then have a new one, and run the old deal through again. Apparently the Queen would need to approve it, but that would mean interfering in the political process - and the same would be said if she refused. Since the last time Westminster was prorogued in the middle of a session was in 1628, by Charle. Since the ultimate outcome a few years later it had him getting his head chopped off, she might perhaps be a tad disinclined to risk it.

Perhaps the next antiquated procedure they'll try reviving would be the Act of Attainder, where a person could be executed without any need for a trial, last used in 1728. I suspect they may never have got around to covering that when the death penalty was scrapped, in which case that death penalty might still apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:40 PM

She could try to put a motion which sets aside the convention, but I'm pretty sure she will never get a majority for that. There's a slight danger that the EU's forbearance will run out and that they'll tell her to sod off later this week. I doubt it and I think they'll give her their long extension. If you take my meaning. Hope springs eternal.