BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 09:27 AM

More Facts:
FOUR Welsh assembly members (AMs) have sensationally joined the Brexit Party “with immediate effect” to give Nigel Farage’s party their first political representation at a national level.


Polls are generally accurate indications. When parties are polling neck and neck
accuracy diminishes to within 5-10 % points. This is a well known fact. As the percentages widen between the parties the inherent inaccuracies of the methodology fade away to insignificance. Pretty obvious really (to most)
I can always argue with facts. Your ideology, conjecture and blustering will never win an argument. You even have to resort to swearing when posting outright lies about Mr Dyson.
Had Mr Dyson wished to he could have made it so that his tax liability in the UK was minimal. Instead he paid a tax liability of 127£million (the thirdhighest in the UK) It is a contribution thousands of times bigger than you or your clones could contribute. Of course being the biggest recipient of CAP funds in the UK gives him a million plus reasons to keep smiling. Displaying your envy so publicly is a far from edifying sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 10:49 AM

Meanwhile the Welsh People have taken to the streets again, demanding independence (a few more than "four" I think)
WONDER WHO OUR RESIDENT CAP-DOFFER WILL SIDE WITH !!!

"You even have to resort to swearing when posting outright lies about Mr Dyson."
Who says Dyson hasn't pissed off elsewhere with his factory (apart from you, apparently)
Don't forget to brush your teeth before you go to bed tonight
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 11:54 AM

INCIDENTALLY
AND
In 2010, Dyson transferred shares offshore to Malta, another tax haven. Following criticism, the move is being unwound. The firm said: "Dyson is a UK owned company, and paid taxes of over £100m in 2013. The administrative companies referred to in Malta will soon be inactive." [see footnote]
AND AGAIN
HABIT OF A LIFETIME - IT SEEMS
DYSON'S TAXPAYING in CONTEXT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 01:13 PM

Here's a quote from one of your articles.

"There is no suggestion that any action by Sir James Dyson, his family or his firms is unlawful in any way."

It's his money and his business. He is allowed to take both where he wants to. I suspect a move from the UK would be more in anticipation of a Corbyn Government than of Brexit. If Corbyn becomes PM you can expect a lot more people wanting to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 19 - 01:27 PM

"If Corbyn becomes PM you can expect a lot more people wanting to get out."

You forgot the two most important words that should appear between 'more' and 'people' - 'immensely wealthy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 01:46 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: You forgot the two most important words that should appear between 'more' and 'people' - 'immensely wealthy'.

Very good point. Exactly the people who pay most of the income tax paid

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580074/Top-25-earners-pay-75-ALL-income-tax-half-country-contributes-10.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:03 PM

""There is no suggestion that any action by Sir James Dyson, his family or his firms is unlawful in any way.""
So - those who make the laws get to break and manipulate them them with impunity
Iain was praising this tax dodging 'patriot' to the skies for how much tax he paid when it turns out he was dodging them just like the rest of his ilk
He has yet to tell us what this has to do with his financing Brexit then doing a runner when he realised its consequences
Don't suppose you'll tell us either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:38 PM

”Very good point. Exactly the people who pay most of the income tax paid”

And, of course, you miss the point - deliberately, I’m obliged to believe - which is that those people are in a position to ‘get out’ whilst the vast majority, who also pay their taxes at a level according to, and befitting, their significantly lower incomes, are considerably less able, and will be obliged to remain and suffer the disaster to which they are condemned by the Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 03:48 PM

I am more concerned with the disaster to which we would all be would be condemned by a Corbyn government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:00 PM

Well Stanron at the moment you don't have to worry about that because the conservatives are taking us to an unknown future.

In the past three years all I have read, heard, watched has told me that the British public will be worse off if we leave the EU than we would be if we remained within it.

Perhaps, as your 'colleagues' have been unable to, you could provide some positive forecasts.

Any good news perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:29 PM

Exactly the people who pay most of the income tax paid

Just what percentage of their income is taken in tax? How much disposable income do they have left? The figures may look large but if you compare the percentage to what you and I pay, it is peanuts. Is it fair that Dyson has millions left while some working people have to rely on food banks to make ends meet? If a Corbyn government evens things out a little, it can only be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:57 PM

Percentage of income is Labour's rather weak response to the economic facts. The richest small percentage of our population pay vastly more in actual terms than the far larger poorest percentage. It's an embarrassing fact for the left so they muddy the waters by saying that the poorest pay a higher percentage of their income. You would have to be numerically challenged to not realise that the larger part of our income tax take comes from our richest residents and if you frighten them off we will all be seriously poorer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:08 PM

Yet again Stanron, people from your side of the discussion have not answered a straightforward question.

How will the UK, as a whole, be better off if we leave the EU.

I have repeatedly asked this question for almost three years. Not once, not once, have I received a positive, coherent response.

IF someone could provide a reasoned response perhaps some of us may be convinced that leaving the EU was a good idea.

And again I ask ......... any good news about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:24 PM

"...if you frighten them off we will all be seriously poorer."

Ah, so the mega-rich are holding the country to ransom then! Makes a change - it was always the unions in our day! Bwahahaha!

What hypocrisy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:26 PM

We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the United Nations; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 05:56 PM

I have a long memory and, though you haven't posted much recently, I recall you as a person who dresses up intolerance in the gentle cloak of poetry. I suggest you remind yourself as to how what we now know as the EU originated: as a recoil against the extreme nationalism that pitched us into two world wars. And it's worked. Argue misguidedly for brexit if you like, but kindly don't argue for a return to the sort of Europe that was constantly at war with itself for centuries and that gave us the two most dreadful events in human history, and the Holocaust to boot. Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:05 PM

But you miss the point, Steve, that I am very much in favour of a stronger more-democratic UNITED Nations (partly via getting rid of "clubs" such as the EU, Commonwealth, African Union, etc.),

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:16 PM

There seems to be a lot of confusion here between Dyson the man (who is uk tax resident and paid 128 million pounds tax last year to the exchequer) and Dyson the company(record annual profits of £1.1bn for 2018) that pays tax on turnover in whatever country sales occur in. This is a subtlety overlooked by leftward leaning persons, whose knowledge of finance and accounting is so abysmal they trash the economy each time they are in power(eg Beneficent Brown flogging off a chunk of the UK gold reserves for a third of it's value)

As an individual Mr Dyson can move his assets wherever he wishes, for whatever reasons motivate him. This right is embedded in EU legislation. He employs 12000 worldwide, roughly 33% in UK. Like any astute business man he makes his widgets where they create most profit.
How much do those decrying him here pay in tax, or employ, or even have the nous to create anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:30 PM

Dyson have spotted the signs and done a runner

I think it would be polite if a mudelf wishes to make deletions and substitute their own material in my posts they should make it clear that they have done so

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 06:44 PM

The UN has been serially emasculated by the United States, which mortally undermines it via detestable vetos and by failing to pay its dues, and by the general hegemony of those giant and corrupt nations which regard themselves as "superpowers." The EU may be twenty-eight nations, but the US is one nation almost as big and China is one nation four times as big. And the individual nations of the EU, what's more, enjoy individual sovereignty and nationalistic pride, in the best sense, that helps to retain their individuality. Your blinkers are preventing you from seeing the right targets. Shed your ideology and see the real picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 19 - 07:40 PM

"There seems to be a lot of confusion here between"
Checkmate, I think

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:03 PM

Steve. Motes, beams and maybe the eyes are yours. Had it occurred to you that you may be the one tied to an ideology? The initial idea of the EU was a good one. Unfortunately what it has become is a kind of modern day re-iteration of the Roman Empire and it's successor the Holy Roman Church.

It is not interested in democracy, it is not interested in the welfare of it's subjects. It is interested in it's own wealth, status and power. Like the Catholic church it has an ideology, with which you appear to agree, it has a closed system of appointing it's own leaders and it enforces a hierarchical structure. I wonder whether St Cuthbert realised what he was doing when he gave in to Romes rule. Maybe he foresaw war and destruction if he tried to resist. The Irish church model seems to have been closer to the Cathar heresy and look what happened to them. It took us a millennium to get free of the Roman church. We are now in a position to extract ourselves from it's political equivalent. It's got to be worth the price.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 19 - 08:29 PM

That's the most ridiculous fantasy I've read in years. You are a tribal Tory, an ideologue of the very worst, self-interested kind. It ill-behoves you to criticise what you see as the ideology of those who are internationalists, who see people as human beings and who want to see a drive towards equality. You and your tribe, a tribe steeped in racism and xenophobia, can't even sniff that. And you have no understanding whatsoever of the way the EU works. Those of us who, unlike you who follows the Teribus path like sheep, go to the trouble of finding out, in contrast to people like you who operate solely on received wisdom, know that the EU is extremely imperfect and we freely acknowledge the need for reform, whilst knowing that the fundamental structures to achieve that are in place. But I can't discuss that with you because you've chosen to keep yourself wilfully and ideologically ignorant, typical Tory that you are. Your Roman Empire juxtaposition is just about the stupidest thing I've read here all day, and, believe me, you have some stiff competition. Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 15 May 19 - 10:27 PM

Steve. Don't you get that Internationalism is an Ideology? It betrays Nationalism. If you support it you are, in Nationalistic terms, a traitor.

As for equality, where is the equality between a pope and a peasant? Where is the equality between Jean Claude Junker and me? You appear to be the ideologue and I am not seeing much in the way of rational argument

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:56 AM

"Nationalism"
Now it all becomes clear !!!
Why didn't you say that in the first place ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:51 AM

Where is the equality between Jean Claude Junker and me?

So the inequality between Dyson and the man in the the street is fine but the inequality between Junker and you is not? There is something seriously screwy with you logic, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 05:55 AM

It is not difficult to see that inequality between Dyson and the man in the street is a product of his inventiveness and hard work. He was not handed it on a plate by a cabal of hidden power brokers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:52 AM

He's become mega-rich by inventing over-priced and unreliable technology that, er, works when it works...and by creaming off the CAP, which I will agree is the biggest absurdity of the EU. And I absolutely don't want to know what's in that nasty damp little trough at the bottom of every Dyson Airblade hand-dryer. Don't touch the sides whatever you do...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 07:59 AM

Oh yes I fogot that of course, Stanron. Every rich person is self made and deserves it.

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 19 - 08:47 AM

Interesting parallels here

Switzerland to re-run referendum because voters were not given the facts

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:11 AM

Of course, I forgot to mention the Airblade V, which does away with the trough but which blasts your germs all over the washroom. And God help you if, like me, you have a V6 cordless vacuum cleaner with it's sticking valve, seizing rollers and clogging drum, not to speak of the filter that won't let you use the "max" setting, and the drum emptying mechanism (you'll need a long stick to unclog the drum's holes, by the way) that automatically has you inhaling toxic dust... the DC14 Animal we had almost set our house on fire when the motor suddenly burned out, and the plastic extendable hoses on the uprights last about six months if you're lucky. The inventiveness he's shown was plagiarised from Heath Robinson and the hard work he does consists of sitting on his arse watching the farming subsidies rolling in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:22 AM

Unfortunately, our cap-doffers and forelock-tuggers aren’t able to see these things while their faces are buried in the toffs’ arse-cracks and their tongues are massaging the toffs’ anal sphincters, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:32 AM

is a product of his inventiveness and hard work"
Then a feller on shift work assembling vacuum cleaners for a pittance is worth less than someone who hardly has to break out in a sweat
About time these cap-doffers realised that one would be useless without the other
Not suggesting that the contribution is equal, but the differential is beyond all reason - and as Dyson has amply demonstrated, the richer you get, the more likely you are to be able to avoid paying your share
Virtually all inventions are a team effort anyway - one has an idea and a team (of lesser paids) makes it a practicality

As I've said before - without plumbers, the world would have to shit in the garden, and without electricians, they'd have to do it in the dark
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 19 - 11:45 AM

Now for a party political pamphlet from bliar blair june1983.
Labour’s official policy at the 1983 election was to leave the EU, written into a manifesto dubbed “the longest suicide note in history” by its late MP Gerald Kaufman.
Mr Blair added the Brussels institution “has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs”.
The arch Remoaner was first elected to the House of Commons in 1983, and the literature handed out to his Sedgefield constituents in the North East proudly displays his Eursosepcticism.

This is the same chappie popping up like turd in a punchbowl trying desperately to thwart the will of the people and reverse Brexit.

You could not make it up!

By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?

For example:
Jeremy Corbyn spent PMQs railing against highly paid FTSE 100 chief executives, challenging May: “is this a Government of the many or in the pockets of an elite few?” Unfortunately John McDonnell didn’t seem to get the memo in time, he’s spent the last two days hobnobbing at exclusive events… with FTSE 100 chief executives.
Awkward…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 12:27 PM

”By the way does anyone know what the official labour policy on brexit is?”

Red Herring Alert.

Brexit is the project of the Tory Party, aided and abetted by the Nicotine-Stained Haddock and his ‘Party’ - Labour’s Brexit Policy is irrelevant.

The Praying Mantis has kept everyone else out of it until it became obvious, even to an egotist like her, that she’s buggered. When she was forced to beg Labour to help her out, they should have told her to go boil her head - the Tories started it, let them finish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:36 PM

Brexit is the project of the Tory Party, aided and abetted by the Nicotine-Stained Haddock and his ‘Party’ - Labour’s Brexit Policy is irrelevant.

Come Come now! You are being rather economical with the truth.
Labour promised 3 times to have a referendum and reneged three times
on 20 April 2004 Blair told Parliament it should debate the European constitutional question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".

He ended the Commons statement with the war-cry: "Let the issue be put. Let the battle be joined."

the Labour election manifesto in 2005 and the language is as forthright.
Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum and campaign wholeheartedly for a Yes vote."

Tue, Oct 16, 2007, 01:00(Irish Times)
BRITAIN:Gordon Brown appears determined to defy popular demands for a British referendum on the EU reform treaty, despite mounting internal Labour Party pressure ahead of this week's European summit in Lisbon. It was of course a commitment on the Labour election manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:39 PM

Stanron, Once again someone from your side of the discussion will not provide answers to a straightforward question.

I can only presume that this is so because non of you actually know any answers to the question.

How on earth can you tell us all we should leave the EU unless you can tell the rest of us how we will benefit from that decision.

So come on,provide some answers.


(PS Once again I won't hold my breath.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 01:43 PM

Raggytash wrote: Stanron, Once again someone from your side of the discussion will not provide answers to a straightforward question.

I have answered your question twice before. Both times you dismissed my answer. Other people may well have answered too. Put the work in to search for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:07 PM

No Stanron, not once has anyone said how we, the public, will benefit.

We've had platitudes about regaining our sovereignty, which we never lost, and controlling our borders, which will still, post Brexit, allow people from outside the EU to enter. We could change that tomorrow should it be deemed beneficial.

So come on, tell me how the people will benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:13 PM

Steve - I agree that the UN must improve but would add that the EU also has issues with the issues you mention, including vetos.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 02:39 PM

The EU 28, as I've explained many times before on this forum, generally reach agreement on policy and regulation by common consent, without the need to take matters to a vote in Parliament, though that option is there. The power of veto is there at various agreed levels, typically according to the size of the state that might invoke it, but more commonly the veto will be considered not by an individual state but by a bloc of states. The UK is regarded as one of the more argumentative states of the EU, but even so we have accepted without demur 95% of all proposals (thousands of them) and have only disagreed with any vehemence on half of the rest. In contrast, the UN has several massive states with individual powers of veto that are used for purely ideological reasons. For example, the US exercises its veto utterly routinely in order to prevent any criticism whatsoever of Israel, regardless of the level of atrocity carried out by that country's regime. Consensus is not possible under those circumstances. Your support of the UN over the EU is completely arse about face.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:01 PM

The two top layers of power in the EU are beyond the choice of the electorate. As an EU voter I cannot vote the President in or out. As an EU voter I cannot vote members of the Commission, who decide who becomes President, in or out of their Commission positions. The two top layers of power in the EU are not democratically controlled. The EU is not Democratic. The sooner we are out, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:28 PM

Absolute bollocks, and you know it. The Commission can instigate debate and suggest policy but is completely powerless with regard to deciding and executing policy. That is one hundred percent down to the twenty-eight member states and, if needs be, the elected European Parliament. I'll be kind to you and assume that you've been gullible enough to soak up and accept lies rather than that you yourself are lying. You are accepting of received wisdom from your anti-EU ilk, when what you should actually be doing is apprising yourself of the actual mechanisms of the EU. You haven't a clue as to the latter, and your pale Teribus-imitation is rather pathetic, actually. Now toddle off and educate yourself as to how the EU, for all its flaws, actually works, and get honest. Go on, Teribus will be reading this, so show him how it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:33 PM

It's kind of like the two top layers of the Catholic church. The person who takes mass in their local church cannot vote for their pope. Neither can they vote for their Cardinals who do vote for their next Pope. A scarily exact analogy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:38 PM

Steve nothing in your post contradicts my post of Date: 16 May 19 - 06:01 PM. How many EU presidents have you voted for? When was the last time you voted a Commission member into his position on the Commission?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:38 PM

Scarily offbeam, actually. Off you go and do your homework for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:48 PM

Thank you for confirming that you have never voted for an EU President and you have never voted a Commission member to his or her position on the Commission. Thank you for confirming that the two top layers of power in the EU are beyond democratic control.

Do you like my comparison to the two top layers of power in the EU to the two top layers of power in the Catholic Church?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 19 - 06:49 PM

How many UK Prime Ministers have you voted for? When was the last time you voted a Cabinet member into his position in the Cabinet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 19 - 08:03 PM

And who voted for Theresa May in 2016? Who will vote for her successor any day now? You're being daft, aren't you, Stanron?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:22 AM

Who will vote for her successor any day now?

It may be argued the Conservative membership will, but that is quite a stretch, because they can only choose one of the two that others have selected. If you are a One Nation Tory, forget it - you will almost certainly be offered the choice of two Brexiteers. It is rather like what I believe conjurers refer to as a forced card.