BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

""The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."
A strange indication that Britain has never regarded herself as part of Europe
Protectionism of their own industries surely includes British industries, which was what we agreed to when we signed up
When/if we leave, that "protectionism" will remain and be to the disadvantage of Britain - all Britain will do is remove its right to have a say in it (as with the fishing industry)
Crazier and crazier
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:55 AM

Backwoodsman. The legacy of Thatcher was that she recognised the decline of UK industry and introduced de regulation and encouraged globalism as a counter.

How much of her policies led to pluses and minuses in society can be argued for ever. These changes impacted the entire world and the jack will not go back in the box.

https://www.dw.com/en/the-reagan-thatcher-revolution/a-16732731

https://www.ft.com/content/8f41da48-a05f-11e2-a6e1-00144feabdc0

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/apr/16/margaret-thatcher-impact-legacy-development

The real problem, well demonstrated by the referendum, is that there is a basic dichotomy between globalisation of trade by ever growing multinationals and retention of national identity and sovereignty. The overarching reality of the EU becoming a political union does nothing to combat the ever growing power of multinationals. Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day. This is well demonstrated by our present crop of mps. 500 voted for article 50. Who paid them to change their minds?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:52 AM

"Power is owned by the money- the voice of the individual citizen is being shrunken and sidestepped by the day."

I completely agree. Yet you Brexshiteers voted to remove the checks, balances and controls of the EU over the behaviour of the tiny, immensely wealthy, powerful cadre who, in order to further their own interests and increase their wealth and power, have driven the BrexShit process from the dark shadows, and to hand absolute power to them, no matter what damage it causes to the lives of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM

The regulations killed our industries. Thatcher used them to take political power from the trades unions.

Saying that the regulations weren't to blame is a bit like the 'guns don't kill people ' shit. We all know if the guns aren't available people don't get killed in quite so many numbers. or maybe you disagree with that.

I saw it happen. I saw it was going to happen. I watched it happen as predicted.

You don't have to agree with me. You're free to tell me I'm an asshole for thinking as I do. many do.

But I 'm not going to take sides with the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:10 AM

Other countries didn't exploit the regulations self destructively. A better analogy than guns here is cars. Cars driven sensibly are useful. There are some people who shouldn’t be allowed behind a wheel. Margaret Thatcher was someone who shouldn't have been trusted in charge of a country, and you can't blame the EU for that.
................


Here is an entertaining spin on the Brexit debacle

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:22 AM

Dunno if that was for me, Al, or someone else? All I'll say is that you know my views on The Beast of Grantham very well, I've made them very plain on many occasions - she was the worst thing that's ever happened to this country in peacetime.

The point I was making in my comment to Iains 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM, was that, despite being told that British industry, fishing, etc. was buggered before we joined the Common Market (i.e. 'long before marvellous Maggie even started secondary school'), you continue to blame the EU for their demise.

I simply hoped that hearing it from a fellow Brexshitter, you might start to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:27 AM

Big Al the world was changing prior to Thatcher. If you study the aircraft industry it was a world leader immediately postwar and into the fifties. Both political parties destroyed the aircraft industry ably assisted by management of the numerous aircraft companies. The reluctance to modernise and integrate was not restricted to the aircraft industry. The unions are a separate issue- governments rule countries not unions,( or cadres trying to redefine british democracy, as now). Thatcher created big bang and as a result the service sector exploded while traditional industries declined due to poor management, union activists, lack of investment and more importantly global competition. How you wish to explain it depends on perspective. The textile industry grew on the colonial market, now many of those markets manufacture and export. They also have the competitive advantage.
The industrial revolution started in the UK but on down the line others learn from our mistakes and did not have obsolescence to deal with. America also soon caught up and overtook the UK in innovation. The US industry for small arms was the first to perfect mass production techniques.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

"The regulations killed our industries. "
Utter nonsense - I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain
Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment, her motive, to smash the unions, the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry   
We in the North of England watched this happen before our eyes because we were the worst effected
Where did "regulations" come into any of this - most of it was deliberate because it was more profitable to buy foreign
You seem to be floundering around to find reasons to blame Europe
I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so
https://www.ippr.org/blog/if-you-think-brexit-is-going-to-be-bad-for-the-economy-just-wait-until-you-see-what-s-in-store-for-us-in-2020
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:33 AM

Just watched a number of interviews with Irish politicians of various parties - none of which I support
All have pointed out masterfully that the Border is Briain's chosen problem and it is Britain's job to sort it outinstead of constantly blaming the Irish for not co-operating
I think that goes for the few here who refuse to recognise the seriousness of Ireland's problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:47 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:07 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:16 AM

I would masterfully point out that Ireland will be directly impacted by brexit. I would also point out thatIntransigence is not a clever negotiating tactic.

I left Liverpool in the 1960 when the containerisation wiped out Liverpool as a port - that was echoed throughout Britain

This is called progress.

the steel industry died from lack of investment and the textile industry started to decline inn 1952 when Britain allowed foreign firms to flood the market with cheaply produced goods, competition from Japan and South Korea wiped out the British Shipbuilding industry

Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies.

Thatcher administered the coup-de-grace on to a coal industry that was dead on its feet from under-investment,

Utter rubbish as you have been told repeatedly on this forum and given the supporting statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:23 AM

"I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

That's easy: it will be the fault of May and remainers for standing in the way of a proper Brexit, talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."

Errrmm....you mean Jeremy Corbyn, surely? ;-)

May's already trying to blame him for the entire debacle, I'm sure the Brexshiteers will be happy to follow her lead...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times
Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry - wonderful to see the patriots describing Britain's industrial pride in such patriotic terms - (sorry Dave, we would be neglecting in our duty to let that gem of national pride go un-commented on)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 09:42 AM

I often wonder how Brexteers are going to explain the nnow fairly universally predicted mess that is set fair to destabilise the British economy for the next decade or so

Main thing is, they'll blame it all on those nasty foreigners who've ganged up against the UK. And of course Remainers who stopped us having a proper Brexitty deal. Always someone else's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 10:17 AM

" talking the country down and generally preventing the One True Brexit."
Is this irony ?
I sometimes have a problem distinguishing with some posters some serious ones can be really off-the-wall at times

I won't get into whether it is ironic or not because that is a really complicated subject. But what I meant was that whatever sort of Brexit we end up with any problems will be blamed on the fact is was not done in line with the purists and so it will be, as McGrath said, someone else's fault. It will never be seen as a problem inherent in Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:00 AM

"was not done in line with the purists"
This disingenuous nonsense needs to be faced head on
The decision, my a minority of the British people, was agreed with no qualified set of promises - there is still no coherent map of where Britain will go when/if they leave
All this should have been laid before the British people before the vote was taken - instead they were given a magical mystery tour to vote on based largely on controlling the input of foreigners
If the people's opinion meant anything more than a fart in a hurricane to these no-marks, those who did would be given a chance to confirm that their decision remains the same and those who didn't should be allowed to vote on theirs and their childrens' future with the fuller facts at their disposal.
Democracy has only meant anything to them indoors when it can be manipulated to serve the haves and, at the same time, give the impression of being the peoples' will
It's at times like this that I thank the god I don't believe in for proportional representation, which, while not being fuly democrating, at leastt manages to keep some of the sharks at bay
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:10 AM

Irish troops threatened to the Irish border.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46998533

or according to Guido it is fast becoming a Brian Rix farce



https://order-order.com/2019/01/25/now-varadkar-threatens-put-troops-irish-border/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

I don't think you are getting my point, Jim, but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough. I do not believe in a One True Brexit, but there are those who do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:17 AM

Maybe the Brexiteers have plans to start up a widget industry.

Only if the business model indicates success. Otherwise it would be rather silly!

It is only the loony left that thinks finance falls like manna from heaven, off a magical money tree. That is why each time in power their economic policy creates an industrial wasteland of catastrophic proportions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:20 AM

You are interacting with him again lads. I can assure you he is just lulling you into a false sense of security.

Hmm! A gnome, a troll, or a vexatious little goblin?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 11:55 AM

"but accept it might be because I am not being clear enough"
I think I do - I was trying to establish whether you were being ironic, which seems to eb the case
My posting wasn't aimed at what you said, which was clear enough - it was my summing up of what I believe needs to be established clearly

Does someone have the emergency number for Rainhill? (understandable only to Liverpudlians over a certain age)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 01:11 PM

I don't like to say I told you so but...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:04 PM

There is no dispute, it is a spiteful little goblin trying to get the thread closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:08 PM

he embattled People’s Vote campaign are dismayed that Jeremy Corbyn won’t get off the fence and back their second referendum campaign. It’s funny how they’re now begging for his help when they’ve been some of his harshest critics for years:
What a joke!

    Tony Blair in 2016 said Jeremy Corbyn in power would be a “very dangerous experiment”.
    Peter Mandelson in 2017 said “I work every single day in some small way to bring forward the end of his tenure in office. Something, however small it may be – an email, a phone call or a meeting I convene – every day I try to do something to save the Labour party from his leadership.”
    Alastair Campbell in 2015 called on Labour members to vote for “anyone but Corbyn” and said that his election as leader would show that Labour had “given up on being a serious party of government”.
    Chuka Umunna in 2015 said that Corbyn and his “nasty trolls” should be disqualified from office because of their pacifist views.
    Sadiq Khan in 2016 wrote that Labour “cannot win with Corbyn” and said that Corbyn had “proved that he is unable to organise an effective team, and has failed to win the trust and respect of the British people”.
    Tom Baldwin, the People’s Vote’s Director of Communications, wrote in 2016 that “people at every level of our party recognised a responsibility to bring Jeremy Corbyn’s experimental retro-70s leadership to a swift end” and tweeted that “getting rid of Corbyn would be a step in the right direction”.
    Anna Soubry just last week called Corbyn the “most hopeless opposition leader we’ve ever had” .
    Mike Gapes also directly attacked Corbyn just last week, saying “Apparently Corbyn is prepared to hold talks with Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Iran without preconditions. But not with the UK Prime Minister. Why?”
    Chris Leslie in 2015 accused Corbyn of “plucking figures out of the air” and said that his policies would hit the poor the hardest as well as keeping Labour out of power for a decade.
    Sarah Wollaston in 2016 said “Whatever your political views, we all benefit from a competent official opposition; that cannot happen under Corbyn”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:25 PM

I think you are spot on about the folly of interacting in this case, Dave. Some people seem to find it irresistible. Very hard to understand that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:27 PM

"I don't like to say I told you so but..."
Don't lie - yes you do, we all do
We wouldn't me human if we didn't
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:36 PM

You are both right :-)

Back to brexit now.

Philip Hammond has now said that "leaving without a deal would cause 'severe damage' to the UK economy".

Common sense from Tory. Wonders will never cease.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM

...All we need to happen now is for May to listen to her chancellor and take no deal off the table. Corbyn will then add some real sense and we can move the whole shambles into a firmer footing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM

I have a cunning plan... :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM

On the subject of our Troll, if he's posting sensibly and civilly I have no problem interacting with him. Unfortunately, his psychiatric disorder means that he seldom keeps it up for long. Then it's time to ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM

No point, John. You know what is coming so just ignore him full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM

I suspect a quite word has been said in his earhole ......

Back to Brexit.

The UK government has been training people to prepare for a disorderly exit from the UK.

A sign of things to come.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

You have a point Dave. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM

I strongly suspect that most people in the rest of the EU are crossing their fingers against the possibility that the UK might change its mind and stay in. That's among those who are particularly interested in the whole thing. A silent majority - rather similar to what was revealed in a study that found that a large majority of Tories would be happy to see the back of Scotland and Northern Ireland if that would mean that Brexit went ahead. So much for Theresa May's "our precious union".

Large majorities of English Tory voters would be willing to support Scottish independence (79 percent) or even the undoing of the Northern Ireland peace process (75 percent) as “worth it” to “take back control” from the European Union, new research from the Universities of Edinburgh and Cardiff has suggested.
Reuter’s, October 2018.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM

This has certainly affected the US economy. It is probably relating to some of the comments that are focused on current economic plights.

Worldwide population is inexorably growing, thus increasing the availability of labor, esp. cheap and very cheap labor.
Technology has enabled the reliable movement of capital.

The above two points have led to what is called globalism.
Uncontrolled it leads to rapid impoverishment of once stable working classes.
With regulation and some discomfort, it can lead to the changes in manufacturing and service industries that most of us have been witness to.
With controls and tariffs and embargoes, many of the inevitable changes can be held off for a time providing false sense of security and temporary job pseudo-stability.

The development of the EU, and such agreements in the West and Asia as NAFTA and the TPP were attempts to acknowledge the inevitable changes to the world economy while minimizing (the over-used fancy work is 'mitigating') the pain of displacement and redundancy. Obama was onto this, but unfortunately Trump made a successful appeal to fear and ignorance. I think the BREXIT affair was parallel only that Europe had its own issues (the bureaucratic rule out of Brussels and the population displacement out of Turkey, Arabia and Africa. What the anti EU and anti-Obama movements had in common was fear (a lot of it understandable) and a certain amount of racism (not accusing everyone of racism, just saying that it doesn't take much to make a difference).

Bottom line: These changes are going to come regardless, and those who can manage to align for them will experience the least pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM

Good summary, Robomatic.

Of course both Trump supporters and EU leavers will deny any element of fear, ignorance or racism and I don't believe for one minute that either group have a majority of people displaying those attributes. But, as you say, it doesn't take many to make a difference.

I have just finished re-reading "The Truth" by Terry Pratchett. One of the lines that was resonant with me then is even more so now.

A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM

"Then it's time to ignore him."
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be now doing, the Mods will have no alliterative Then it's time to ignore him.but to take action against him
Any reacting to or against his indefensible behaviour can only prolong his trolling - as I have been told constantly by a mod "stop feeding the troll- makes sense to me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM

Spell corrector went haywire there
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be doing the mods will have no alternative but to do something take action against him

Faulty posting should keep hi busy for a while
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM

"resonant with me then" should have read "resonant with me first time round".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM

So it looks like the most likely amendment to pass on Tuesday is a Tory one to go back and renegotiate the backstop. Meanwhile the EU is clear the price of reopening the backstop discussions is a permanent customs union. Which of course the reason the Leavers want the backstop changed.

Place your bets now whether Parliament will vote to demand rejection of the backstop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=161452
seems very clear to me who the b******s are. It is the usual suspects!

Perhaps a kind forum fairy would close this thread as it now merely seems to consist of repeated personal attacks by the "usual"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM

One persistent assertion of the "no deal" Brexiteers is that leaving with no deal would mean £39 billion to play with that they wouldn't have to give to those nasty foreigners. What they ignore is that that £39 billion is not a fine for leaving, it is payment in respect of debts incurred by the EU - a version of those debts which has if anything been pared down to assist the UK in these difficult times.

Failing to pay would be a matter of the UK defaulting on its debts, which is not a very good basis for winning the trust of any tother countries in conducting any kind of business or negotiation. The term used in such cases is "pariah state". Or to use a term with historical basis in the case of this country "Albion perfide".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM

I doubt that many leavers would understand that, Kevin. In a recent survey, linked above, 26% of people thought that no deal meant we would be staying in the EU.

Maybe I am lucky in that I studied British constitution and government, and Economics at college but I thought that more people used to understand what was actually going on in politics than this. I guess the Tory cuts to education have done the job they were designed to do. An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM

Northern Ireland demonstrators out in force today demanding there should be no hard border
Perhaps the problems that Ireland, both sides of the border, will eventually filter down to those who claim it's the Irish and Europe who are being intransigent - it's the UKwho have thrown their toys out of the pram and now they are demanding that everybody else has to pick them up

Leo Varadkar got himself into hot water yesterday by suggesting the possibility of troops returning to te North _ I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said - there is a distinct possibility that, if things continue the way they are going British troops will have to return to keep order
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides,therefore the effect is self cancelling. Many of those subject to Tory education cuts are still below voting age, whereas those whose education was destroyed by Labout education cuts are fully enfranchised.
Was it not the Labour MP AnthonyCrossland said "If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."    Crosland is so quoted by his wife Susan Crosland in her biography. Hewent toa fee paying school
and from the Gruniard:
" Labour MP Diane Abbott made a second attempt to defend her decision to send her son to a fee-paying school, after she was attacked by her neighbouring MP in East London. ... Since then she has admitted her decision was "indefensible" but attacked the state of the education system"
A familiar pattern of labour elitism emerging here I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said

That will put you in a very small minority then!

The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings of a return to soldiers and checkpoints along the border if there is a no-deal Brexit.


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseachunder-fire-for-border-soldiers-warning-900216.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/violence-north-brexit-4452334-Jan2019/
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides, therefore the effect is self cancelling.

I am afraid not: that assumes for example that the voting patterns of those with higher formal qualifications and without was the same, for example, which we know it wasn't. Also, it would not be self cancelling if those wanting outcome A were more prepared to manipulate - or more effective - than those wanting outcome B: even if the electorate were equally manipulatable the effect would not cancel out.