BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:37 PM

" a move towards a united Ireland "
I would much rather this happened for a positive reason rather than an 'any port in the storm one though
The on thing about this is that Brexit has enabled the different groups to unite in contrast to the UK where once united party has shattered itself into smithereens taking the rest of Britain with it.
Having to wait for a plumber and putting up with 60mph fog does have its compensations
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM

Brexit has an equivalence in quantum mechanics. Right now there is a super imposition of all states/possibilities. We can not know the position or outcome. No matter how radical the outcome it will become orthodoxy in time and you will know the true position you are in.

Psychologically
When this baby Brexit is born it will slowly develop. You will go through a phase where Britain will think Brexit is still a joke like peek a boo game because you have not learned object permanency yet. A true position will emerge whether there are any benefits as self awareness develops.

Some forecasts of disasters or legendary traffic jams in the Chunnel have only helped to make the crises to become more manageable.

As orthodoxy = radicalism + time you will learn your worst fears and best hopes will only be understood after a full year passes.

At this late date I see this baby is coming for good bad or indifferent. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 03:59 PM

That Ireland will be still part of the EU seems a pretty positive reason to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:28 PM

Schrödinger's Brexit... love it, Donuel.

May delays the meaningful vote. Again. I set my hair on fire (whatever's left of it that hasn't already been incinerated).

The Cooper/Letwin amendment - fingers crossed - passes (getting more likely by the day, especially now that Corbyn's on board).

Meaningful Vote comes on March 12th.

(a) May's deal is approved. Hard Brexit is off the table.
(b) May's deal is defeated. Hard Brexit is effectively off the table.
Because Cooper/Letwin deadline is the 13th.

Britain isn't left alone out in the economic cold.
Ireland doesn't tear itself apart.
Everybody eats.
I reach for the fire extinguisher and douse my hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:37 PM

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:44 PM

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome remainiacs?
Not until you can give good news about Brexit beyond "We are leaving on 29th" which is your normal response to Raggy's requests!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

"Hard Brexit is off the table" doesn't mean that Brexit itself is off the table. Only hard Brexit. You know, the one that means leaving without a deal. Remain doesn't figure in the March 12th scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

I've been opposed to referendums for at least four decades, but I've decided in extremis that a people's vote is quite literally the only way out of this morass. I'm holding my nose here, but I hope that Labour's tentative moves in that direction bear fruit. In another referendum this country will vote remain, and that is the only solution to this that won't wreck this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 07:03 PM

But will, hopefully, wreck the Tory party :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:23 AM

Sorry Jim

Your posts were among my sources of information that 'sectarian violence' was likely to be an outcome of a hard Brexit. So I am aware of the risk, and you are wrong to claim I am ignorant of it.

That risk is precisely why, whatever Bonnie did nor did not intend to say, there is a chance of UK troops being deployed in the North of Ireland. Working on the assumption that the UK government has the brains to see that there is a risk of sectarian violence it makes sense for them to have 'military' and other intelligence at work monitoring those likely to instigate such violence. I hope they have.

Let's not say 'sectarian violence', let's say 'murder', car bombings, knee cappings, pub bombings, tarring and feathering and all the rest of it. And protection rackets and so on while we're at it.

And I think one of the main things that brought about a reduction in this was whichever POTUS stamped down on the US sending money to fund the Irish terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:24 AM

And you cannot blame 'history' especially some half-baked romanticised notions that once upon a time there was a united country called Ireland or whatever the Celtic word was, for modern day violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:27 AM

And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices.

I don't buy 'A nasty British big boy did it six hundred years ago and ran away' as an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

kAREN, There is a simple solution, the uk and ireland agree on a referendum which involves the total people of the island of ireland, the referendum is a united ireland northen ireland then gets its wish to remain in europe, the referendum is imo likely to be in favour of a united ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:10 AM

The above is more likely to happen if a labour or liberal government were elected rather than the conservative paRty relying on the support of the DUP

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

"t will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices".
No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that
As it stands, Brexit has already begun to eat into the economy of Ireland, both north and South - installing a hard border would accelerate that substantially
Britain has deliberately used the DUP to push Brexit through - how on earth do you expect the Irish people to react to that ?
There really is a chance of a reawakening of the old conflicts and once again that can be laid squarely at the doors of Westminster
The British don't seem to have the slightest concept of the continuing effects of colonisation on the victims of that long dead means of dominating entire nations   
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:50 AM

In another referendum this country will vote remain

The laddie has a hotline to God I suppose, or is it merely whimsy, or perhaps his delusions let him think his bizarre views are sufficient to bully the electorate?
Fact:
Poll 23.2.19
Leave 41%
Remain 45%
Undecided 13%

Level of uncertainty? well don't ask a bookie. They were hopelessly wrong last time around.
I would imagine if we go down the road of another referendum and betray democracy then whoever has the best soundbite prior to polling will win the day.
After all it is a well known fact on this forum that the people are sheep. It is also a well known fact that if you want the sheep to go in a certain direction and your dog is having an off day, then rattling a bucket is all you need to do.
Question: does the leave or remain bucket contain the sheep nuts?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

"And if a hard Brexit will result in sectarian violence, then in so far as the Irish government plays a part in demanding a backstop leading to a bard Brexit, it will be the fault of the Irish government and its political choices."

Karen you seem to overlook the fact that this whole debacle was brought about by the UK decision to leave the EU.

The UK Government knew, or should have known, the ramifications of such a decision so if any blame is to be laid it should firmly be at the door of the UK Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The fault is squarely on the shoulders of Cameron who would not stand up to the bully boys of the right wing. He was shit scared of losing power so caved in to the right within his own party and in the likes of UKIP. Any politician worth his salt would have demolished the xenophobic little Englander arguments and sent them packing but he played his little populist game and lost big time.

All subsequent moves by May and this useless bunch of tossers has been trying to get out of flushing the country, along with their careers, down the pan while trying to play down the fact that they dropped us in this shit in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:08 AM

Apparently Farage has said if there is another referendum with a choice between May's deal and remain, leavers should boycott it.

Suits me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:46 AM

Great btexit news at last! The pound is climbing against the Euro :-)


Oh. Hang on. Seems to be because it looks like brexit will be delayed. Ah well. I suppose we will just have to wait for the unicorns after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 01:12 PM

And if May runs true to form via her usual bait-&-switch, and breaks her word at the last minute? She could just be playing My Deal Or No Deal poker, using the nation's ass as a bargaining chip, and wasting still more time. I trust her promises exactly as far as I can throw a 44-ton lorry.

I'm not thinking Remain-vs-Leave. Just Deal-vs-Crashout.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:02 PM

Corbyn has either seen sense or had a change of heart
Whatever is correct, he still has my vote (if I had one)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:06 PM

Or boxing very clever of course
Perfect timing to demand a second vote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:25 PM

"Or boxing very clever of course"

I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition.
The great guido has the measure of the man, and some of the accompanying comments pull no punches.
Corbyn is totally unfitted to be a future PM.


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:18 PM

"I could think of many descriptors to define corbyn.
Clever is not one that could easily spring to mind. In fact it would be duplicitous of me to associate such a word with the leader of the opposition." .............Iains

"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity." ............. George Orwell

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:57 PM

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.
In my own case to describe corbyn as clever would be deceitful.
To describe corbyn as duplicitous would be in the alternative sense of
someone who always lies to get their way.
nowt insincere in any of my posts I can assure you. and Orwell is on another thread. Best kept there otherwise a few get confused

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:23 PM

Whilst I have no wish yo engage with you, I would suggest that you re-read your last two posts, which are at odds with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:24 PM

yo = to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:09 AM

Stop prodding the ants Steve - everything his says is an inane contradiction
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:47 AM

More thread drift from the usual cabal.Obviously nothing sensible to contribute as usual. Here is a little gem from your favourite source the illustrious guido:

Commie Corbyn refuses to support hezbollah ban


https://order-order.com/2019/02/26/labour-refuses-support-hezbollah-ban/

Aesop: “A man is known by the company he keeps”

I presume if you support corbyn you support the terrorist organisation hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:25 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47377548

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:59 AM

"We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it."
Please don't siplify a complicated and very dangerous situation
Permanenet peace in Ireland depends on the Good Friday agreement being seen through to a satisfactory conclusion
The DUP, in supporting Brexit, is drawing away from that solution, its main reason being maintaining British rule
Trivialising it really doesn't help understand it

This morning's announcement from Westminster that it is finally admitted that Norther Ireland will be far more severely hit by Brexit that will Britain will almost certainly add fuel to an already sensitive situation
Crashing out and leaving a hard border will just about clinch it

Singer Frank Harte once gave a talk on Irish political songs to a group of rather staid English Folkies at Loughborough around the time of 'The Troubles'
He began his talk:
"The British have never understood the Irish"
Pregnant pause
"But the Irish have always understood the British"
Never seen so many squirming bottoms
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:37 AM

i've seen many ridiculous and abusive points on here - and i know we should ignore them but..... is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist? perhaps if you are resisting occupation by a ruling military force....otherwise a communist is usually as pro-establishment as you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:50 AM

is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist

Franco thought so. Thousands of british Communists went over and were regarded by Franco the same as we regard ISIS. That is why the Brirish security forces distrusted and kept tabs on them.
Even the lefty rag the gruniard agrees:
Today they would be arrested under section five of the Terrorism Act 2006. If convicted of fighting abroad with a "political, ideological, religious or racial motive" – a charge they would find hard to contest – they would face a maximum sentence of life in prison. That they were fighting to defend an elected government against a fascist rebellion would have no bearing on the case. They would go down as terrorists.(and quite rightly so).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/10/orwell-hero-terrorism-syria-british-fighters-damned

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:52 PM

Good if you put upan unopenavble link and miss out the important bits
Article well worth reading

Whatever you might think of armed intervention in Syria, by states or citizens, Hemming's warning illustrates the arbitrary nature of our terrorism laws, the ring they throw around certain acts of violence while ignoring others, the risk that they will be used against brown and bearded people who present no threat. The non-intervention agreement of 1936 was not the last elaborate system of official humbug the British government devised."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:08 PM

Are you speaking double dutch above.
the apple does not fall far from the tree does it?
Do like the new paint box! Does it have pastels as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:13 PM

Will be interesting to see if Cohen's massive dump on Trump - "Conman, racist, liar - forged cheques, collusion with Russia, conspiracy over Clinton e-mails.... will have any effect on BRITISH/AMERICAN RELATIONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM

"Does it have pastels as well"
Game, set and match, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM

I don't believe that is cricket!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:31 PM

is it possible to be a communist and a terrorist?

See; the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Cambodia, the Red Brigades, the Front Line and the Red Army Faction.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

Perhaps, as Israel is now being accused by American Rabbis of colluding with a group described as being equivalent to the KKK, there's a name that should be added to your list Bobad
You can throw these in FOR GOOD MEASURE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:09 AM

Ah, over-simplification criticised and then a good example of it given, an example from Frank Harte (whoever he is).

This word 'British'. Lots of Irish think of themselves as British.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:23 AM

We had to start bombing teagues/prods/pubs in Brum because the Uk voted to come out of the EU? I don't buy it.

I still don't buy it, and thank you for the recap on Good Friday and DUP policies but I knew about that and I still don't buy it.

"Yes I bombed them, I killed/kneed-capped/mutilated/punishment shot various young people/women/children but HISTORY MADE ME DO IT. It's your fault for not keeping to the Good Friday agreement and for voting for Brexit'

Geddit? I don't buy it. It's a choice, not history.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:25 AM

"Lots of Irish think of themselves as British."
You know that - o course ?
Not in my part of Ireland they don't - can't think of one
Those who do, do so because their Britishness was either forced upon them 100 years ago as a "temporary measure" to gain a peace that was never fulfilled, or to dominate in a deliberately created sectarian Protestant State
The most artificial thing you could possibly do is draw a line across a country and call part of it it somewhere else - it robs people of their national, cultural and historical identity and is guaranteed to creat a permanent industry of body-bag manufacture
I'm afraid Frank Harte's words are being borne out by your own display of both British arrogance and a lack of knowledge of the Irish people, who they actually are and who you appear to wish them to be.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:29 AM

No it most certainly will not be - it will be the fault of whoever drew a line across Ireland designation a large slice of it to be British - how unnatural is that

Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder eachother on religious grounds and the wishes of the majority of those in Northern Ireland. And I think they designated it 'Northern Ireland'.

There was never a political entity called 'Ireland' before the Normans/Welsh went in. It was a collection of squabbling petty chiefdoms, rather like much of Europe at that time.

I can only hope that they crack down hard on any sectarian violence and on those who justify it through emotive nonsense like 'unnatural'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:31 AM

And, while I am enjoying myself thinking and arguing outside the box, this dual citizenship stuff ought to go to. Pick one or the other, none of this two passports rubbish, especially for people expressing hatred of the 'British'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:09 AM

"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder eachother"
THat's an indredibly racist statement Karen -
The wars in Ireland can all be traced back to rid themselves of an Imperial power - on the whole, the people in general get on with one another, no matter what their different religions
Any sectarian violence that occured arose from the creation of an unequal secrtarian State by Britain - the first shots were fired Loyalists and the major violence broke out when Civil Rights protest marches for equality were diverted thought stone throwing mobs made up of the same bigots
Regarding your very revealing foot in mouth about aspiring to be
"British" - the majority 'British-linked' people of Northern Ireland have their roots in Scotland, a country that was treated similarly by the empire
I think we're finished here - I can get most of this sort of thing from a Tommy Robinson site - please take your anti-Irish hatred eslewhere - we've already got one of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:47 AM

Jim
I am merely responding in kind to your posts. If you cannot take it do not dish it out. You yourself referred to sectarian violence. Talk about having your cake and eating it.