BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 01:43 PM

From the BBC website:

Mr McCluskey dismissed reports about Mr Corbyn's health as "fake news".
Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show, he said some people were in a "rush" to change Labour's position of "respecting the 2016 referendum and trying to negotiate a deal which would unite the nation".
He blamed "huge mistakes" by Prime Minister Theresa May, a government "incapable" of delivering Brexit and a "well-funded Remain lobby" for turning the Brexit debate "toxic".

I don't know about anyone else on here, but no 'well funded Remain lobby' is paying me anything. Nor are my views set by a propaganda campaign, as I was making the same points before, during and after the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 02:06 PM

McCluskey has been in hock to the far right for years. Just because you are a trade union leader, doesn't mean you are in any sense a progressive. Look at Jimmy Hoffa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 04:11 PM

We buy food from the EU because of its quality.

Food Apatheid in the EU brought to you by the mouthpiece of the left so it's veracity is unassailable. I wonder what side of the divide the UK lies?

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/sep/15/europes-food-apartheid-are-brands-in-the-east-lower-quality-than-in-the-west

This is the same regime that allowed horse meat into the foodchain masquerading as prime beef. (2013 Roumanian horses ended up   as prime beef over parts of Europe. The meat in itself is not harmful other than fraudulent, the concern is phenylbutazone entering the food chain.)
Chickens also pose a risk. Cases of Salmonella Enteritidis acquired in the EU have increased in humans by 3% ... Levels of Campylobacter are high in chicken meat.
US farms are allowed to dip or wash chicken carcasses in water containing chlorine dioxide in order to kill potentially harmful organisms such as E coli, campylobacter and Salmonella on the surface of the meat.
The false argument against chlorine washing is that chlorine is part a processing method that makes up for poorer welfare standards on poultry farms that have sacrificed hygiene for increased production. And so chicken is washed with chlorine to kill off harmful microorganisms that may be present on carcasses.
Animal welfare and food hygiene are two totally separate issues. Conflating the two to play one regulatory regime against another is mendacious

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:05 PM

Exercise left to the reader: There is a proposal from the US ambassador that we should have EU/UK chicken and US chicken both available to the end customer to let them choose which they wish.

Show how this implies either a hard border between NI and the Republic, or one at ports, otherwise known as 'a border in the Irish sea'.

Also explain how the US negotiating objectives on labelling are compatible with this idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:46 PM

"Bigger and more efficient farms produce more food per Ha."

Well now, let's see. My view on this was formed decades ago after I'd read an amazing little book by that self-sufficiency guru John Seymour. The title was Bring Me My Bow. John, Gawd bless 'im, was a devoted right-winger who didn't believe in old age pensions or other state benefits. But he told the truth about our food production. To update him, at least half of the barley and wheat production in this country, most of it produced on huge farms that receive astronomical EU subsidies, is unfit for human consumption and is used for animal feed. Poor animals. That production is possible only by dint of massive chemical input. Not only by artificial fertiliser, much of it won via the Haber process, one of the most polluting systems on earth, but also by the use of lethal neonicotinoid insecticides. On the other hand, "smaller and less efficient" farms, often organic, produce excellent quality food though in slightly less amounts than the chemical systems. But it's all useful as human food and it is not produced via highly-polluting inputs. I know which I prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 02:37 AM

That link Iains, is to an article with a question mark at the end (which doesn't of course appear in the link). And it is mainly about US multinationals applying different standards to their products in Eastern and Western Europe. It is not about locally produced food. And the horsemeat issue (not right to call it a scandal, horsemeat is as you say not harmful, and in certain countries is the most expensive item on the menu) was an issue of non-compliance by UK and Irish and Romanian producers which was detected by the EU testing regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 02:39 AM

And US food poisoning deaths are up to 10 times higher than those in the UK:

https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_US_foodpoisoning/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:04 AM

Of course our resident right singers have not mentioned the cost to the planet. It may cost less to buy some things from outside the EU but how much damage does it do to the environment to get them here?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:52 AM

It is mainly about US multinationals applying different standards to their products in Eastern and Western Europe

Moreover, both interpretations are in accordance with the EU regulations, so the debate being raised is whether the EU regulations need to be stricter to reduce this variation. And we all know how supportive the Leavers are of more regulation from the EU. A strong hint of racism, I think, to object to the variation and object to the means to reduce the variation.

But, to stress, both interpretations are to the current EU standards, which are in many cases higher than from outside the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 03:54 AM

SORRY, SORRY, SORRY.

I typed cakism. Not racism!

As auto text fixes go, that is a real humdinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 04:25 AM

Sssssshhh....I think you got away with it, DMcG. Someone kindly fixed before Nigs got his arse into gear... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:10 AM

Seymour may have been a self styled self sufficiency guru, but farmer he was not. He made his money from writing. Real farmers make their money from farming. This dictates they use techniques to maximise growth and hence returns.
   If they did not you would likely starve.


Barley is the second largest arable crop in the UK (after wheat). It remains an important cereal because of its ability to survive in cold and wet conditions, so although it is grown throughout most of the UK, in the north, where growing conditions are most difficult for wheat, it is often the dominant arable crop.

Of the 6.5 million tonnes produced in the UK each year approximately 2 million tonnes are malted by the brewing and distilling trades. About 1.5 million tonnes are exported for the same purpose, often to countries like China that have developed the western taste for beer. The remaining 3 tonnes, i.e. almost half of what we grow, is used for animal feed
The UK is one of few countries in the world that has grown its barley area in the past few decades, with the global barley area declining by 23% in the past 20 years.

More than 93% of malting barley globally is used for beer production, but half the UK crop is used for distilling, feeding the expanding Scottish whisky sector, which is expected to use 1m tonnes of malting barley annually by 2020.

The other half supplies domestic brewers such as Carling brewer Molson Coors, but also underpins exports to maltsters in Europe, who rely on British growers in the south of England to iron out supply deficits from growers on the Continent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:23 AM

No quotation marks there Iains or reference to your source. Very poor could do better 4/10.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:02 AM

I am sure if you disputed the facts you would use google. Why should I link, others have no need to?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:07 AM

Er, John Seymour was involved in agriculture for most of his life, actually, including long spells spent as a sheep farm manager in Africa, a smallholder-farmer in the UK, then later owning and working a farm in Wales and then in Ireland. Like lots of farmers do these days, he found ways of supplementing his income, largely in his case by writing. But before that he showed that it was possible to be self-sufficient on a five-acre parcel of land via good husbandry and diversity and by farming organically before it became fashionable. Others do B&B and holiday cottages, or stable horses, or make cheese, or open up farm shops or cafes. To suggest that he was not a farmer is utterly laughable. However, glad to see that you confirmed in your mind that around half of our barley production is fit only for animal feed. When you marvel at the fields of waving barley this month, reflect on the outrage underlying many of them that's hidden from view. And that the farmer who owns the fields, who probably voted leave like most farmers, receives massive EU subsidies. Crazy world, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM

It is considered normal, at least amongst intelligent people, to place quotation marks around a quote and provide a source.

I presume you had an education, despite the limited evidence, and had you not used quotation marks and provided a source your work would be marked down. You may even be accused of plagiarism.

So no change there then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:26 AM

And that the farmer who owns the fields, who probably voted leave like most farmers, receives massive EU subsidies. Crazy world, innit.

And who Hunt is now promising to insulate from their decision by making everyone donate a good part of £6billion to them. Ditto for fishermen.

Crazy world indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:33 AM

John Seymour (12 June 1914 – 14 September 2004) was a prolific early author in the self-sufficiency movement. He had multiple roles as a writer, broadcaster, environmentalist, agrarian, smallholder and activist; a rebel against: consumerism, industrialisation, genetically modified organisms, cities, motor cars; an advocate for: self-reliance, personal responsibility, self-sufficiency, conviviality (food, drink, dancing and singing), gardening, caring for the Earth and for the soil.
I can think of instances in his books where he would be liable for prosecution for the illegal burial of waste and possible contamination of water courses, although he masqueraded as an ecoloon. Having Q A'd
landfill sites all over the UK from initial construction phase to capping and subsequent gas gathering installations I take a keen professional interest in waste disposal.
Ragwort your time would be better spent instructing your little mate in the construction of links. It would help us separate fact from whimsy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 07:38 AM

Yet another example of "oh look over there" Iains, frankly a disgrace.

I am not anyone's keeper, if you have a problem with someone's post please address that person.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 08:03 AM

My time is far far too valuable to waste making futile attempts to cure other's peccadilloes.
Meanwhile:Jeremy Hunt has just given a speech on ‘No Deal’ preparations at Policy Exchange, setting out his ten point plan to leave. It is well known that Hunt campaigned for remaining in the EU in 2016, Hunt now says he accepts the outcome of the referendum and Brexit must be done. Today he is going further and says he wants to ramp up planning for no deal, yet even over the course of the last few months, he has repeatedly hit out at ‘No Deal’
Politician speak with forked tongue? Surely that cannot be so! Anything to get elected. Although I would say if Hunt is elected massive defections will occur to the Brexit party. With Boris this is less likely. Either way my runes suggest a General Electon is in the offing. On current polling the outcome of that is far from certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 06:26 AM

Brexit Party {{puke}} turned their backs on the playing of the EU Anthem - Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’ - at the opening ceremony of the EU Parliament this morning.

Shameful, ignorant, disrespectful scrotes.

I won’t wait for howls of protest from the mob who bayed for Corbyn’s blood when he didn’t sing during the U.K. Anthem, even though he demonstrated respect by standing when it was played.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 07:17 AM

I never sing during the national anthem. I never sing during anything. Anyone who ever heard me singing would know why.

But I would not turn my back on the national anthem, even of a country whose policies I profoundly disagreed with.

So "shameful, ignorant, disrespectful scrotes" is about the least you could say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 10:26 AM

And childish into the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 11:31 AM

Brexit Party - a futile gesture?

...and childish and embarrassing. Are there really people around who see the EU as our enemy? you can negotiate a deal beneficial to both parties if you remain on good terms. Or just remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM

There are people around still fighting WWII in their own minds. Even though they were born years after it ended. And they seem to have forgotten that most of the French and the Polish were on our side. Its lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 12:35 PM

This is a blog I read quite often, because I share a profession with the blogger, or did before I retired. Quite stunning similarity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

i've just watched a film of a brexiteer MEP haranguing the parliament - comparing them to slave owners and such. also claiming to speak for britain. this brexit is far worse than futile = its ridiculous, deeply damaging and very embarrassing. they have no shame and no understanding that the fundamentalist no deal they crave would only represent at most a quarter of the views of our more aged and more closed-minded little englanders. sadly - this seems to include both the PM contenders. who will save us all from these eejits?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:18 PM

The High Court has issued its final judgment on Boris and the bus and it makes many telling arguments against the laddie that tried to prosecute Boris. It starts by stating the magistrate should have quashed the attempt. The wheels were off this particular bus before the journey even started.
The full text brought to you via that excellent purveyor of accurate reporting MR Guido Fawkes:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2019ewhc-1709-admin-johnson-v-westminster-mags-final.pdf
The judgement totally destroys the arguments on here submitted by the lefties and Boris has his reputation as a fine fellow restored, all buffed up and shiny again. A spiffing summary from the judiciary.
Will Halloween bring us Samhein and the attendance of the ghosts ofBrexit past or Brexit future? Will it be the beginning of a winter of discontent for valiant brexiteers or remainiacs?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:54 PM

What a sad case gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

A sad Billy-No-Mates, Raggy, his only means of getting hard-on by trolling an Internet forum. Just picture him sitting in his lonely room, tugging his todger in front of his computer screen....

Second thoughts, don't.......

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:50 PM

I am not convinced all posters here have read that judicial finding carefully. At no point did it consider whether the claim on the bus was false. In fact, it goes to some lengths to point out that there are many false claims during campaigns. The question that they considered was whether Boris was acting in his capacity as mayor in making the claims, or not. Having decided not, the case falls because he was not 'acting as such' and therefore was outside the legal restrictions of the post. Nothing to do with whether Boris is a hero or villain, a good egg or a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:55 PM

Quite right, DMcG. The judgement is complex, measured and considered, and the poster who referred to it, and to Staines' blog, has misrepresented it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:13 PM

What a surprise! NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:35 PM

The figure on the bus is actually correct. As pointed out below it is the gross figure quoted because the rebate is an uncertain variable with no guarantees.

June 22 2016 Boris defending his figures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=Vp2jUbNtNVA

UK Gross contribution to EU
2011       2012      2013      2014      2015      2016      2017
15,357    15,746    18,135    18,778    19,560    16,996    18,625
Weekly                                  376       326       358
Source HM Treasury

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Monique
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:34 AM

"The EU budget at a glance" U.K. 2017.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:35 AM

So there will be an extra £350,000,000 for the NHS! It must be true because Boris said so. And some people still seem to believe him. There's one born every minute ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:37 AM

Not only does it not include the rebate, it doesn't include the money given to UK participants in valuable EU programmes such as Horizon2020 which no UK government would ever fund (it being a bit too complex for them), And quite frankly, I would rather my tax money went to Eastern Europeans trying to build their society up, than to ignorant people in sink areas of the UK trying to tear theirs down.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:59 AM

Someone is really not getting the concept that lying is about the intention to decieve.

The figure on the bus is intended to create a misleading impression of the amount of additional money that will be available to the UK. Quoting gross rather than net is precisely the issue.

We all have our opinions on the figure on the bus. Nothing is to be gained by debating it further.

On the other hand an understanding of the readiness of Boris Johnson to mislead is relevant, but rather more in the 'Leadership'thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:40 AM

The figures on the bus were gross, as Boris pointed out numerous times.
Check the link provided previously and below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWhwzCuHfAo&feature=youtu.be&t=283
and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7AZJfodiVU&feature=youtu.be&t=80
and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY3RznQSBfw

There was no lie, no deception, as clearly seen with the proof from the horses mouth.
The prosecution was politically motivated, vexatious and without substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:49 AM

We were taught at our Catholic grammar school that there were different kinds of lying, and that an important one was lying by omission, which has the intent to deceive. What was daubed on the bus is a classic example of that. It doesn't matter how many times he might have separately said that the figure was gross, if he did. The bus was the tabloid headline-catcher, as it was intended to be, and the word "gross" was nowhere to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:54 AM

It wasn't even right as a gross figure. The rebate never leaves the country, it is an amount which reduces the gross figure. Whether I agree with the rebate is another matter,I would rather that more of mytax money went to help the poorer regions of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:12 PM

Tommy Robinson, star of stage, screen and Brexit, has been jailed for contempt of court
"Orwellian" - eh what !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:37 PM

Play ‘Find The Soap’ time for Yaxley-Lennon then!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

It doesn't matter how many times he might have separately said that the figure was gross, if he did.
I provided three video links above where the gross figure is both stated, and explained, with the uttermost clarity.

Sorry! It cannot be denied.

I wonder why Tommy Robinson is introduced into the thread? He has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit more to do with grooming from a certain ethnic group. Is it because you finally realise that fighting Brexit is a futile gesture? Is young Tommy introduced as a poor distraction subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:34 PM

"He has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit"
He, Farage and Kate Hooey address Brexit crowds outside of Parliament - scumbags like him are the products of Brexit, thriving on the prejudice and populism that gave Britain this mess
FAKE NEWS MAYBE!!!

Understandable to disown him, totally incomprehensible to lie about the obvious
Scum like Robinson ARE WHAT BREXIT IS REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:12 PM

The reality is that the largest political party in the EU is the Brexit party, formed in large part as a result of Tommy Robinson being allowed to join ukip and thereby destroying the remaining credibility of ukip.
But do not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

As to the reason for leaving here is a series of reasons from Rumour Mill News no less.


Anne Widdicombe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:56 PM

Mad as a box of frogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:32 PM

Mad as a box of frogs. Yes, that certainly describes the EU. That is why the sensible majority voted to leave

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:40 PM

Strange - it was you and the Widdecombe harridan I was referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 08:41 PM

"Tommy Robinson being allowed to join ukip and thereby destroying the remaining credibility of ukip."
Which is why you pushed his petition around and described his arrest as "Orwellian"
Your value here is that you represent the extremist right who lurked in the shadows and refuses to support the causes you represent
Methinks neo speaks with forked tongue - your history displays what you stand for - have the bottle to stand by it

"Ann Wiiecome - failed thatcherite who dyd here hair
Who gives a toss what a supporter of Pinochet's friend thinks !!!
Jim Carroll