BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:01 AM

The closure of the thread feels like collective punishment. Latterly, most of us have been stridently trying to resist the inanities of the one idiot who has been messing up the thread by sidelining him. Contrary to what the closer of the thread seemed to be claiming, discussion of this topic has far from run its course and things are set to move on dramatically quickly in the next few weeks. It's actually history in the making, no exaggeration, and we should be able to talk about it. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:10 AM

In fairness, most of us have played some part in closing it - some more than others
This will continue to happen until we start to police ourselves and control our own behaviour as well as dealing with the real gluggers

I read this morning that forty-plus Tory MPs have threatened to resign if they (the House of Common members) aren't given the final say on Brexit
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:11 AM

Jim, we have been trying to police ourselves in recent days. We can stop him if we try.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"We can stop him if we try."
Can we not make this about him please
While we respond to him we become part of it, as a mod has just pointed out to me - now the Mods have been made fully aware of hat e is, he can't continue as he has for much longer anyway
Ignore him - all of us, if we want this thread (and BS section) to survive

Onward and upward to Brexit - or hopefully to kicking it into touch
I don't agree with you about referendums Steve - they've changed Irish Society for the better and there's no reason they can't do the same for Britain if they are presented properly and not used as Populist maneuvering   
It seems to me that the only answer to the present fiasco is to put the vote to the people again - now the clownish behaviour of the establishment and the revelations as to what leaving Europe will bring will at last give the electorate some idea of what they are voting for rather than the unfulfillable promises that brought about this mess in the first place
It has to be done by open debate, not within the Parliamentary greenhouse - I'd love to see Posh-Boy Moggie face to face with the articulate debater Corbyn seems to be becoming - I know who my money would be on
If, after all this, a majority ('bout time PR was considered for eections) still want to leave there's not much you can do about it
I have little doubt the people will sort it out anyway when things do go radically wrong - with a great deal of added hardship to the have-nots who have to pick up the tab, of course

Parliamentary debate has become little more than meaningless words shouted over a constant noise from a herd of bleating sheep
Let's see the the thing thrashed out openly by articulate people and for Christ's sake, let someone point out the inhumanity of using refugees from wars and poverty Britain has helped and even facilitated, as political pawns
It's about time Britain's situation in all this was dealt with holistically rather than a series of separate issues
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:07 AM

Good news about brexit

On balance I think there is more bad than good but in the interests of fairness I think this piece should be included. Even if it is by the co-editor of "The Conservative Woman" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:11 AM

Like Steve, I've been against another referendum (I dislike referendums as a matter of principle - they seem to me to be a cowardly cop-out by the very people we have elected to very well-paid positions of responsibility for making these decisions on our behalf. As the saying goes, you don't keep a dog and bark yourself.

But I'm coming round to thinking that, with May's intransigence, the government's paralysis, and the unwillingness of many MPs to do what they know in their hearts is best for the country as a whole, a 'second referendum' is probably the best route to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:17 AM

She's deluded.

Nothing to either agree or disagree with me about, Jim. Whilst I am opposed to referendums, because they dress up complex issues as simple binary decisions to be put before an uninformed public, I've said more than once that there may be no other way out of this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:29 AM

Parliament are never going to decide anything seriously without putting their own self-interests first, as partied, as individual investors (as many of them are, and as career politicians) - they never have and certainly aren't likely to now
They need to be made answerable to their responsibilities and their promises - until they are, the people need a voice in what happens to their lives and their communities
Five years of promises that will not be honoured is as far from democracy as is Parliamentary dictatorship
On issues of national importance I can't see any alternative other than referenda
Sorry - 'Mary Queen of Scots' calls - see y'all tomorrow
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:25 AM

I am sorry, but for me Jim's conduct has had as much to do with wrecking the thread as anybody else's. If, and I say if, he is feeling proud of having done this, or feels that he has achieved some kind of victory, then I would just like to register a feeling that he is mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:39 AM

Karen, we are actually trying very hard right now to sideline the real villain of the piece. Jim is now onside. If we ignore troll posts and talk about brexit, we may just manage to keep the topic alive. What's done is done. There is genuinely something important to talk about here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM

Karen, I think Jim will be the first to admit that his behaviour has left much to be desired at times. I also think that several of us are working to help Jim refrain from being reactive to the disgraceful provocation - the bile and vitriol, the name-calling, the deliberate attempts (often unfortunately successful) to 'press buttons', aimed at him and, to possibly a lesser extent, to others here - by his Nemesis.

I know that Jim is trying hard to improve his behaviour, as are the others I referred to, by refusing to react or respond to provocation - the only one who, as yet, seems unable to acknowledge his own part in all the trouble on the 'Brexit #2' thread is the aforementioned provocateur, whose single contribution to this thread so far is in precisely the same provocative vein as the vast majority of his posts on the closed thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 08:21 AM

Then let this be about the associated Brexit conundrums instead of searching for the one true villain amoung many.
Brexit has its own HBO movie staring Kumberbatch. Too bad the script writer didn't consult with you folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 08:59 AM

To get back on track!
'Stop reporting fake news!' BBC forced to apologise for 'editing' Brexiteer Newsnight clip

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1075950/Brexit-news-BBC-Newsnight-UK-Nadine-Dorries-Conservative-Party-latest

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:06 AM

Will this government ever do what is right for the country if they know that in doing so it will divide their support at the ballot box?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:27 AM

No they won't. The long, sorry history of Toryism in this country is to prioritise looking after their own (the wealthy, the landowners, the landlords, the tycoons and the fast-buck spivs) and to look after the interests of the Tory party. If they change from that, they won't be Tories any more. Unfortunately, at the moment it's hard to see an effective alternative that would be any different. We just have to keep fighting from within, that's all. The first step is to make sure that Corbyn realises that he's wrong to support brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:43 AM

They walk among us!

Fresh from telling his constituents that he knows better than them, Labour’s Ipswich MP Sandy Martin has claimed in his ‘weekly column’ that the Prime Minister had met with Corbyn to discuss Brexit options. A meeting she offered but the Labour leader famously refused to accept…


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/know-better-labour-mp-now-lies-constituents/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 09:58 AM

From The Department Of The Bleedin' Obvious: the EU has confirmed what we knew all along but what the leavers shoved under the carpet: a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. Of course it would. We can't expect to be made a special case. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:05 AM

That part of the game...

These nasty Europeans will do what they're told because we are British and if they don't, they are bullying us...

Anyway, these threads go nowhere but I couldn't resist one comment on a third restart.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit#3: a probably futile gesture...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:06 AM

Steve, when the thread gets really long a couple of things happen - people veer all over the place topic-wise and it's difficult to moderate those few fighting, spam, or non sequitur posts that need to go. From this side of the pond it sounds like the Brexit conversation has entered another (perhaps even more precarious) stage, and it seemed a good time to start again. Any of you who want to review the 2,815 posts of the Brexit #2 thread are more than welcome to look back. I suspect that unless someone is mining it for old links they posted, it the conversation will simply move on from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM

The British government’s insistence on upholding the result of the democratically-convened 2016 Brexit referendum is quite understandable .A quandary arises however because the outcomes of the democratically-held referendums in both the north and south of Ireland backed terms reached in the Good Friday Agreement negotiations that require “avoidance” of a physical border on the island of Ireland.

It’s hard to explain Irish history to British people who don’t want to be constantly reminded about Ireland and their country’s own involvement in Ireland’s history. Some in the UK -and indeed some in Poland whose citizens in the UK feel put at risk by Brexit - think that the Irish are being stubborn at the moment and that the GFA –an international agreement - should be set aside or its wording modified or reinterpreted in order to facilitate Theresa May’s Brexit negotiations .

Britain has said that it will not erect a hard border in Ireland : the EU said this morning that it will build a hard border in the event of a no deal being reached. That‘s the dilemma that Brexit has put EU member Ireland in : if Ireland remains in the EU and no deal has been reached , will it be party to breaking the border-avoidance clause in the Good Friday Agreement ? The GFA was worded using the language of “constructive ambiguity” so as to get most parties on side with the deal -the DUP never supported it . All parties will now be looking for nuances in meaning for the word “avoid” perhaps. But it will be difficult for any Irish government to sign up to a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:03 AM

There is no NEED for any kind of border between the EU and the UK. All our laws and all our regulations and all our tariffs are 100% aligned and identical. The need for a border is an invention of the EU and the reason for this invention is good subject for speculation.

Speculation 1. Based on the fear that other members may be tempted to follow suit and leave, the EU wants to be seen to be punitive towards leavers.

Speculation 2. The EU knows that a significant number, although not majority, of UK citizens do not want to leave. This large minority (actually a majority of MPs) will do their best to prevent Brexit even to the point of damaging the UK. The EU therefor gives as little as possible and asks as much as possible knowing that remainers will attempt to sabotage a successful exit. An example is the remainers insistance that 'No Deal' is taken off the table. No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK. It should be a really good bargaining tool. The remainers do not want us to have such a good bargaining tool. Also of course 'No Deal' actually means leaving. Every bit of any deal we do will tie us to the EU. The softer the Brexit the greater and tighter the ties will be. No deal means we leave and the remainers have lost completely. Bring it on.

Speculation 3. The EU is a psychotic and nonredeemable political experiment that puts an inflexible ideology before the best interests of it's member states and their populations. They would do this wouldn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:11 AM

It is possible there WOULD be no need if all our regulations etc were the same for all time. But as our declared intention is to change these, a border or some other scheme will be required to inspect matters arising these differences as soon as they arise. Merely being the same at the moment is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:19 AM

So Speculation 4 is fear of the future? That's not very healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:31 AM

That speculation is possibly right Stanton , the EU was actually very shakey before the UK referendum . Leading Brexiteers knew that and wanted to get out first - steal a march on other member states .EU leaders know that Brexit can only work for the Brexiteers at the expense of other powerful EU countries.If the wrecking operation involved in the EU’s most powerful country quitting the bloc is successful then Britain will come out dominant .So the EU leaders are taking steps to prevent a no-deal situation and keep the UK tied to the bloc. Can you blame them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM

Another perspective on the Border question:


https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-northern-ireland-backstop-theresa-may-how-brussels-blew-brexit/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:51 AM

Speculation 5. The drivers for leaving would love to see a breakdown of the EU so that individual states can aggressively compete with each other; without realising that if that happened the UK would soon find out that, quite rightly, the UK population would be trodden into the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 11:53 AM

the EU has confirmed a no-deal brexit would mean a hard border between the Republic and the North. It would be a border between an EU country and a non-EU country. Hard border. Simple.

"So this hard border.
Are they going to install watch towers with searchlights and machine guns and have barbed wire fences with minefields.
And what is the purpose? To keep people out or keep people in?
Smacks of creeping totalitarianism on the part of the beleaguered Brussels apparatchiks to me."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM

It's hard to explain Irish history to some people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM

No, Stanron, it is not fear of the future. You need a border of some form to accomodate a difference. That is as true in politics as it is in physics, chemistry and biology, or in social structures like entrance exams. Borders are associated with difference: no difference, no border. A difference, some sort of border. Fear does not come into in the slightest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 12:41 PM

Stanron says, still, despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary:

"No Deal will damage the EU far more that the it will damage the UK"

And extraordinary statement, which can only be made by someone really quite deluded.

A no deal brexit will reduce UK GDP by of order 10%, and EU GDP by 2-3%.
For the EU its a hiccup. For the UK a catastrophe. The 2008 recession was 6-7% reduction. Only the depression of the 1920s was worse.

So thats what Stanron wishes to "bring on". Economic conditions not quite as bad as the Great Depression. But significantly worse than any we have experienced in our lifetimes (apologies for any one reading who remembers the 1920s).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 01:09 PM

despite overwhelming evidence and opinion to the contrary.
Evidence? Where is this muythical beastie?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 01:38 PM

Rupert Murdoch was once asked why he hated the EU so much. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied.’When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’.
Jim, by using sky box you are financially contributing to rupert murdoch and brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:11 PM

We heard you first time, Dick. Thing is, if you made a crusade out of boycotting any company or organisation that supports brexit, or has directors or CEOs who support brexit, well frankly you wouldn't be able to live your life. Anyway, Dick, I pay five quid a month for Sky Sports Mobile so that I can watch Liverpool in the Premier League and I'm buggered if I'm giving it up. I'd sooner hack off my meat and two veg with a rusty machete, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:29 PM

A couple of things. First, the EU contains nearly half a billion people, about seven or eight times our population, so it's arrant nonsense to suggest that the EU will somehow come off worse. Second, the EU is not blocking anything. We started this and the EU has to stick to its own rules. It's actually playing a very straight bat. We are the bad boy who can't expect special treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 03:32 PM

No deal could cause a spike in adultery!!!!

From guido! It must be right.


https://order-order.com/2019/01/22/project-fling-no-deal-cause-35-spike-adultery/#disqus_thread

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

The road to hell is paved with good? intentions.
The european dream is having a few hiccups.


https://www.rt.com/news/449388-macron-king-executives-execute-reforms/

Note what happened 226 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:24 PM

NO STEVE I disagree if i owned a television which i used to i made a conscious decision not to support sky or murdoch. i run a festival www.maritime.com i discovered when i paid my radio advertising bill that county sound was now opwned by rupert murdoch so i will not advertisec with them again, that is about having principles. Steve and jim you bang on about brexit but you have no right to because you are financially supporting murdoch, Steve, its more important to you to watch a football match shown by sky than to not give money to murdoch , absolutely pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM

Brexit solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 04:49 PM

Another thread killer Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:06 PM

I told you, Dick, you can't run your life that way. I buy stuff from Asda, Amazon, Morrisons, Lidl, Aldi, M&S, Vodafone, BT, Apple, Microsoft, Coopers of Stortford, Specsavers, Tesco, eBay, Ford, Mazda, CPL, Mole Valley Farmers, NFU, Rangemoors at Winkleigh, Waitrose, John Lewis, Costa, Caffé Nero, Lakeland, Woolacotts, Spar, the Esso garage in Bude, Sainsbury's, Trago Mills, Donald Russell, Gloucester Services, the local butcher and the local fishmonger. Within many of those emporia I buy stuff made by Heinz, Colmans, Hellmans, the local dairy, Napolina, Roddas, Trewithen, Kraft, Cadburys, Nestlé, Weetabix, Kellogg's, Yeo Valley, Fairy, Kenwood, Delonghi, Duracell, Energiser, Rowntree, Green and Blacks, Davidstow creamery, Canon, Panasonic, Philips. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I'm not about to delve into the gargantuan task of finding out what all their brexit stances are or who's running all their shows who might be brexiteers. You can if you want to. I decided that I have to breathe at least some polluted air.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:31 PM

I will not support Murdoch, a man who played a major part in encouraging brexit and a man who played a part inn organised violence at Wapping, and you support him just so that you can watch football pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 05:48 PM

Bye, Dick!

Just a feeling I'm getting, but it looks like the impetus for a people's vote is subsiding a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:13 PM

Whilst I can agree with your sentiment Dick, I do not have the time to trawl through the accounts of every company I have to deal with.

I do not have a Sky package so I go to the pub to watch most sport. (I do have freesat)

Are you suggesting that I should not go the the pub because the pub pays for a Sky package?

As Steve has already suggested most major companys we have to purchase from (there being little, if any alternative) probably have some very dubious practises.

Short of sitting in the kitchen, in the dark and scratching my arse I have little alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 19 - 06:58 PM

Wonderful.

James Dyson who has consistently supported Brexit has now announced he is moving the HQ of the company to Singapore.

P&O Ferries are to re-register all their ships to a Cypriot flag, Sony is moving it's European HQ to Amsterdam, away from London.

I feel sure that more and more companies will leave the sinking ship in the next few weeks.

Isn't Brexit ******* marvellous !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 12:14 AM

So does the exit agreement include powers to charge corporation tax to Singapore and Netherlands registered companies?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 02:55 AM

I think that I’ll vote for Brexit
Though none of my posh friends expects it
I am fairly sure-oh
I’m not at all Euro
But then again Life’s what you meks it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:15 AM

A glimpse of sanity!



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/--899440.html

Bobad. Love your cartoon! but I cannot entirely agree with the sentiment expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:17 AM

We need to keep the impetus going then Steve. No deal brexit cannot be allowed to happen, by keeping it on the table May is holding a gun to the head of the British economy. And the British people. George Osbourne was right about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:20 AM

Far-right groups could exploit Brexit tensions

Why does this not surprise me one bit? It was interesting to note the following statement that some on here have been denying.

Asked about the background of Brexit, Mr Basu told the BBC: "We saw a spike in hate crime after the referendum, that's never really receded.

So there's always a possibility people are being radicalised by the kind of febrile atmosphere we've got at the moment."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 19 - 04:31 AM

Never thought I'd see the day when I agree with Gideon about anything but, on this occasion, he's absolutely right on the button.