BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM

DMcG Have you heard of Robert the Bruce and the spider.
A little history from a previous post of mine
The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957

By the Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union; 1991), which went into force on November 1, 1993, the European Economic Community was renamed the European Community and was embedded into the EU as the first of its three “pillars”

The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) created the European Union as a single body of "three pillars". The pillars consist of the:
1) European Communities(the EEC),
2) Common Foreign and Security Policy
2) Cooperation in Justice and Home affairs.

Do you see a pattern forming here?
Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey?
items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to. YThe pattern I see is evermore integration

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 19 - 01:48 PM

Do you see a pattern forming here?
Do you think Maastricht is the end point or the start of a journey?
items 2 and three above seem very much like unfinished business to me, and how I see the projected endpoint is not something that I can agree to.

Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it. As Dave said, being outside that group and squeezed between such a superstate, the US, China and Russia - for example - does not sound a bright move.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 02:17 AM

"Which sounds an excellent reason to stay in and use our veto to prevent it."
Absolutely
Beats leaving home like a sulky teenager any day
The EU is a combination of states dominated by a failing system - one that can no longer cater fo all its citizens - the rapidly increasing gap between haves and have nots is an obvious indication of how this is impacting on the people
This system will have to change or it will collapse
Brexit and Trumpism are ploys to divert attention from the effects - "blame someone else for our failures"
Immigrants and Muslims 'the enemy within', have taken the place of Germany's 'Jewish menace' - go dig out Farage's poster to see that message written in big letters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

"Lefties"
A TIMELY REMINDER OF RIGHT AND LEFT
AND ANOTHER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM

There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers. Which is why one in particular keeps trying to get it closed. Luckily, the moderation team are on to him and remove the ill concealed attempts to shut it down. Just ignore him and let the team do their bit to keep this important topic out of the cess pool.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 10:46 AM

The shape of politics to come was has been set in the US with Republicans, referring to a black politician, stood up and chanted "send her home"
Reminiscent of a Nuremberg Rally
Anybody who believes this has nothing to do with Brexit and Farage's poster - dream on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 12:03 PM

.There are far too many uncomfortable truths in this thread for the most die hard of our brexiteers.

Here is one of them:
498 MPs voted to approve the second reading of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 to allow the Prime Minister to invoke Article 50 unconditionally. A failure to agree the terms of separation would result in a no deal. This can be defined as a failure by the European Union and the UK to negotiate and conclude an agreement setting out the arrangements for the UK's withdrawal before the Treaties cease to apply.

Now for one of those uncomfortable truths:How many of those MPs were closet remainers and lied to their constituents in order to take office? This should prove interesting come re-selection time for re-election. The electorate will extract it's revenge, make no mistake.
Support will be from the Labour heartlands the Tory shires and wholesale desertion from the Libdems. All Dysoned up by the Brexit party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 12:12 PM

Another uncomfortable truth came from the Office of Budget Responsibility. To the tune of £30 billion.

Will this forecast from an official government body also be dismissed

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 01:41 PM

Forecast is a forecast
Truth is truth

The more astute among us recognise there is a vital difference

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM

One of the interesting things about the vote in the commons today to make proroguing Parliament more difficult arises from the observation that several government ministers abstained.   Now, Boris has said that the cabinet he picks will consist of pro-Brexit enthusiasts - he thinks the remainder inclined ministers have blocked Brexit.

But that forgets the convention that Government ministers (and PPS etc) vote in accordance with the Cabinet decisions. As a result they vote in line with the cabinet consensus, or in rare cases abstain. Those committed enough to resign are quite rare.

So: by forming a cabinet exclusively of pro-Brexit people you actually decrease the pro-Brexit vote in the house: the 'remainers' on the Government payroll are released to vote as they wish, and the pro-Brexit are constrained to vote the way they would anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:19 PM

Any comment about an official government department saying that it will cost an arm and a leg to the UK economy.

Note, not a think tank of left wing remainers but an official body.

Unicorns and pie in sky anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

increasingly it seems like we are being led by a group of incompetent fanatics engaged in a crazy project to remove us from our european ties into an impoverished and ignored relationship as the 52nd state of trump's america first USA.

WTFF?

surely this is precisely what no sane citizen would have wanted. yet here we are, with our next PM making up stories while brandishing a haddock and kissing a big, fat, orange, racist arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

And the Chancellor appoints the governor of the Bank of England;
Apr 28, 2019 - The Bank of England got its Brexit forecasts wrong, according to ... Governor Carney

Note, not a think tank of left wing remainers but an official body.

Anymore for tennis?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 02:57 PM


Any comment about an official government department saying that it will cost an arm and a leg to the UK economy

I would expect simple denial.

Remember how the fall in the value of the pound after the result was just a correction and nothing to do with Brexit? Having seen the sterling movements since Boris/Hunt started talking up a no deal I am surprised we haven't yet been told they are nothing to do with Brexit either.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 03:02 PM

telling lies, brandishing a haddock. kissing fat, orange, racist arse - good old england!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 04:03 PM

The collapse in the value of the pound since the brexit vote is just the first of the horrendous consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM

I googled brandishing a haddock and it came back with Tintin. What did I miss?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:23 AM

Mrrzy - Boris Johnson (likely our new PM) was telling lies yesterday about the EU, claiming that EU rules force producers of kippers (smoked herrings) in the Isle of Man to pack them for shipping in a certain way when, in fact, no such rule exists in the EU, and the Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.

I think David was being deliberately, amusingly obtuse with his reference to 'haddock'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:24 AM

Apologies! It was Pete, not David, who referred to a haddock!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 09:21 AM

Thanks! There is a pun in there somewhere, I am sure.
Boris. Man alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 09:47 AM

no, genuine mistake. if i was going to lie to the nation i would always choose to illustrate my lies with a haddock. other fish lack authenticity, i find, or gravitas

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 10:06 AM

Gravitas? Isn't that Swedish smoked fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 10:38 AM

indeed. does not go well with turnips. but then, what does?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:04 AM

Easy ...... Haggis!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

Easy ...Haggis
Not so.
The rutabaga or swede differs from the turnip (Brassica rapa) in that it is typically larger and yellow-orange rather than white. ... In the north of England and Scotland, the larger, yellow rutabagas are called neeps or swede from folk etymology, while the smaller white turnips are called turnips.
While it is eaten all year round, haggis is particularly associated with Burns Night, when it is traditionally served with "neeps and tatties" (Scots: swede, or rutabaga and potatoes, boiled and mashed separately) and a "dram" (i.e. a glass of Scotch whisky).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 11:44 AM

The swede is also known as the Swedish turnip, Russian turnip or, in Scotland, just neeps. I think anyone but the most pedantic of nitpickers just spoiling for a fight understands what Raggy meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 12:18 PM

The silliest thing about Johnson's antics with the kipper is that it perfectly illustrates one of the arguments the remainers have been making.

Our kipper supplier was based in the Isle of Man. To sell into the UK, since it is NOT a part of the UK, it has no choice whatsoever but to abide by the regulations the UK sets, unless it wants to cease trading with us. In precisely the same way, UK manufacturers will have no choice but to abide by the EU standards if they wish to sell to it. As far as that is concerned, it matters not a jot whether we are inside the EU or not. Of course, inside we can influence the regulations, whereas outside we cannot. In the UK we can, if we want, have different standards. But unless they are a strict superset of the EU ones, we can't sell to the EU.

A business could choose to have two manufacturing streams - an EU regulated one and an non-EU regulated one. Apart from the wastage arising from that, they would forever be having to prove they have not 'cross-contaminated' the streams, with all the costs that implies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 12:56 PM

The discussion in the by-ways of Parliament is getting more and more off the wall. According to the Independent "Senior Tories are considering changing *party rules* to stop Boris Johnson facing a no-confidence vote within the first year of being prime minister, by preventing a vote of no-confidence in the leader being called until they had been in office for at least 12 months."

The Conservative party can introduce any party rule changes it likes. A confidence vote in Parliament is about whether the PM is able to command a majority of the House or not, and is typically called by the opposition. It is not under the control of the Tory party. Now, if it wants to add to the gaiety of the situation by potentially having a Tory PM who is different to the Tory Party leader they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 02:23 PM

The County Court has ruled in favour of Darren Grimes’ appeal, exonerating him of the Electoral Commission’s kangaroo court imposed fine. The Commission’s argument for their egregious fine hinged on Darren’s accidental registering as an individual campaigner rather than a group. The Court has found that this is clearly disproportionate for ticking the wrong box…
Responding to the news, Darren said that “today’s verdict is a victory against the Remain Establishment which has done all it can to try and discredit the biggest electoral victory in this country’s history.”
While the Government spent almost half a million pounds fighting him, crowdfunding aided Darren’s appeal helping to raise over £90,000 to take the fight back to the Remain establishment. The average donation was just £30…

I wonder if any resignations will emanate from this clearly unfit for purpose quango?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:06 PM

"I wonder if any resignations will emanate from this clearly unfit for purpose quango?"
Grimes won his appeal on spending - no investigation has been carried out on the fact that hs organisation has links with Cambridge Analytica, who have been ipicated in Russian interference with the Brexit vote
It appears that some patriots among us are happy to see unregulated elections on vital issues which allow outside interference in British democracy
CAMBRIDGE ANALITICA AND 'VOTE LEAVE'
MORE DIRTY TRICKS
CHAIRMAN'S APOLOGY - "DESTROYED DATA"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 03:33 PM

It is a fairly standard reaction, but it is worth remembering.

The Electoral Commission said it was "disappointed".
"We will now review the full detail of the judgment before deciding on next steps, including any appeal," it said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 04:17 PM

Interesting article off the Beeb,concerning a possible General Election triggered by a no confidence vote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49004486

Could be an intriguing outcome after a recent yougov poll where Tories want Boris for the long run, not just Brexit and poor old compo barely qualifies as an also ran.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/07/19/tories-want-boris-long-run-not-just-brexit
and here is a little ditty for compo to warble while sitting in his cabbage patch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNBKKc8s0k

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 19 - 06:12 PM

For someone who declares zero confidence in forecasts, you seem quite keen on them for some things like election results.

I have no real idea how long Johnson would last as PM. It could be a long time, definitely. On the other hand if he finds himself obliged to accept an extension beyond October, his support could disappear overnight. Even without that, if he leaves with no deal and a fraction of the claimed problems come to pass in say the first six months, again he could find his support becomes thin.

For what it is worth, I am not with those who think everything will collapse the day after a no deal. It will take several months for the more serious issues to hit, though there could be a goodly number of problems in the first days or weeks. Providing we don't have severe food shortages or similar, any immediate problems will be dismissed as "teething troubles."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 02:23 AM

Seems we've moved on from the shady world of Cambridge Analitica and now that that particular brick aimed at those who with Britain to remain in one piece has fallen short of its mark
Anything rather than discuss the mess Brexit has made of both Britain and the Tory Party, it would appear
LIKE THIS ?
OR THIS ?
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 02:59 AM

Here are two key findings in the link Iains posted. Firstly about Boris


Shifting the focus from those who voted Conservative in 2017 to those who intend to vote Conservative if a new election were called yields very little difference: 60% want him[Johnson] running the Brexit process, 49% want him running the country, and 44% want him in charge of both.


Now about Corbyn:


Figures are rosier among those that say they would vote Labour in an upcoming General Election. Six in ten (62%) would want to see Corbyn running the country, and 47% want to see him in charge of Brexit, while 44% want him running both


We have from other surveys that there is a fairly equal four way split between parties, so the chances of the Conservatives or Labour winning the next election are too close to call at the moment, if those surveys are believed. The great hope for Conservatives is that replacing May with Boris will change this, but that is yet to be proven, especially if Boris does not leave the EU come October 31.

So what those two extracts say is that Johnston has 49% support for running the country after Brexit, and Corbyn 62%.

It doesn't really support the assertion 'poor old compo barely qualifies as an also ran', does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 03:08 AM

Sorry about the italics!

There is a fundamental flaw in the survey, by the way. When people are asked who they want running the country, they naturally think of a majority government, since that is the normal situation, and the question implicitly steers them in that direction. The answer to the question 'Which person could get most support from other parties if they were leader of a minority government?' might yield a very different answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:00 AM

For someone who declares zero confidence in forecasts, you seem quite keen on them for some things like election results.
Well you have to put them in some kind of context.
When opposing parties are polling within 10% of one another predicting outcomes is best left alone. I would suggest 10%is the intrinsic inaccuracy of polls on a sunny day.
It also depends upon the question being asked and where we stand in time relative to the outcome being polled.
To ask voting intentions for a general election today indicates nothing of significance. The same poll a week before may have more meaning.
How much accuracy you assign to a specific poll is dependent upon a variety of factors, but even when outcomes seem certain, surprises can occur. At the end of the day a poll is simply a forecast and is best regarded as having the same accuracy as a weather forecast.
A prime example would be the brexit party. It polls all over the place, seemingly impacted by the state of the tides and phases of the moon. It swept the board for the EU elections, but how likely would similar gains be in a General Election? It would be largely determined by the behaviour of the incoming PM(ie whether perceived as closet remainer or leaver) and by the perceived stance of Labour on Brexit.
The recent local elections showed huge defections from both major parties with a protest vote going to the libdems. The brexit party had no role in those elections and many MPs have defied their electorate on Brexit. Any no confidence vote forcing an election would be the equivalent of turkeys voting for christmas.
This will enable us to see our Mps in their true colours.
Will it be morality or Mammon wins the day?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:28 AM

I'm the EU elections the brexit party simply took all the votes off ukip. The major swing was away from Labour and Conservative to the pro-remain LibDem, Green and SNP parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 04:46 AM

I'm the EU elections the brexit party simply took all the votes off ukip. The major swing was away from Labour and Conservative to the pro-remain LibDem, Green and SNP parties.

That no doubt is why the brexit party became the biggest party within the EU.
Your conclusions suggest the title of another Carry On film, "Carry on deluding!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 05:08 AM

Last EU election results

Pro leave
Brexit Party. 29 seats gained
UKIP. 24 seats lost.

Not so much a massive gain as a change of name. Only 5 seats added in reality.

Pro remain
LibDem. 15 seats gained
Green. 4 seats gained.
SNP. 1 seat gained.

So, from the last EU election, the leave parties added 5 seats. The remain parties added 20.

Pretty difficult to spin that in any other way than more people swung to remain than to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

which way you swing does not change a majority and as I have said before, bums on seats is the only metric worth considering. Rather like leave won the Brexit referendum. Whether this was because the disenfranchised are not allowed to vote or a significant number of those enfranchised were too idle to vote is of no significance.
I suspect inhabiting a pink bubble must enforce a distorted reality where normal rules of mathematics are rewritten(perhaps with input from the abbacus) There is something sinister about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 19 - 08:14 AM

Bums on seats is a reasonable argument and one I was quite prepared to discuss. Why spoil it with "those enfranchised were too idle to vote" and "inhabiting a pink bubble must enforce a distorted reality"? It is that type of nonsense that gets you ignored and your posts deleted. Until you are prepared to be civil any discussion with you is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:50 PM

Bums on seats is the only game in town. As has been said innumerable times those who voted to leave the EU won the referendum. There have been a number of threads on Brexit, the total postings must be in the thousands. There is a hard core of around 7 on this forum that argue over and over and over that the result was somehow flawed and must be rerun. Brexiteers only have to point out the obvious THAT THEY WON. So why do you find this concept of majority wins so difficult to understand. For thousands of posts you have disputed the outcome. You are like recalcitrant children, or alternatively Canutes disputing celestial mechanics and still getting wet feet. You would all test the patience of a saint and that I am not.
I would also point out that it is your side arguing that 16year olds should have been allowed to vote and that the resultof the 2016 referendum is no longer valid because the oldies that voted have all died off and other equally as stupid arguments.
It is also abundantly clear that when logical argument has ripped the ground from under your feet you all resort to insults and then have the audacity to accuse me of being insulting.
Have you ever thought for one moment that sometimes your arguments are so flawed that mockery is the only response that makes you take notice

Your favourite argument is that you were not informed.
Well I was informed that leave won the referendum
I was informed that a huge majority of MPs voted for article 50
I was informed by the manifestos of both Labour and Tory in the 2017 election that we would leave the EU
I was informed by the PM innumerable times that we were leaving.
We are still in the EU
I was lied to on multiple occasions
You were told to tick a box- in or out All the information you required was on the ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 05:58 PM

Empty rubbish, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 19 - 06:30 PM

So the 19 year old Steven Edginton tells us he gave the Darroch diplomatic telegrams to Isobel Oakeshott and wants "to be absolutely clear: the leak of Sir Kim's cables had absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit party."

All very interesting, but most people thought it was a Brexiteer plot, which is not the same as a Brexit Party plot. And you have a very solid Brexiteer background - which of course you are quite entitled to - which fits that possibility:


Edginton worked initially for the political website Westmonster, founded by the Brexit-backer Arron Banks, before periods as a digital strategist at the Taxpayers’ Alliance and Leave Means Leave campaign. Since April he has been employed by the Brexit party, organising its social media feeds.

(Each of these is a strongly pro-Brexit group, for those who are not aware of it: Taxpayer's Alliance sounds neutral, but it is not.)

But all in all, you are pretty irrelevant, Steven Edginton. You may have been an intermediary and liable to some charges because of that, but you are not the source of the leak, which is what is of concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 02:38 AM

The brexit party is not the biggest party within the EU, that is EPP, closely followed by S&D.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 03:45 AM

It is a fact that more people voted to leave than reemain. Just as in 1974 more people voted to remain than leave. What is in dispute is whether it is "the will of the people" when only 17 million of the 65 million that inhabit these isles thought leaving the EU was a good idea. And of those many have now changed their minds. It is also disputed that leaving the EU is wise. Not just by "the people" but by every single economic and commercial organisation. What people want is not necessarily good for them!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:07 AM

What ‘The will of the people’ was three years ago may not be ‘The will of the people’ now. Only a blind, brainwashed fool would try to use a decision made three years ago in 2016, on the basis of the votes of a minority of the electorate, to influence policy decisions being made in 2019.

The EU Referendum was advisory only and the government is not, and has never been, required to be directed by its result - that fact was set out in the documentation of the EU Referendum Bill 2015. The sensible course of action now is to revoke A50, and for a genuinely cross-party team of MPs to be set up to investigate and report on what the UK’s future steps should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 04:31 AM

The facts are even simpler

The majority of economists and business leaders, those dedicated to knowing what is best for the nation, are in agreement that leaving the EU is a bad thing. The majority of arguments put by those dedicated to leaving the EU have proven to be false.

Given those facts I shall do my utmost to help those wishing to do the right thing for the nation as opposed to those doing the right thing for their own political cnareers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 19 - 06:30 AM

The facts still remain as stated. The majority of those in the know believe that leaving the EU would be a very costly mistake while most of the arguments put up by those who want to leave are false. Both those facts have been proven over and over again.