BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:41 AM

Had a hand in passing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

Those regulations are for our benefit. They ensure that the food we buy is safe to eat, that our employers have to make us safe at work for example. I want those regulations kept. All of them, and more. Without them irresponsible and unsavoury people and countries will be able to put any old rubbish on the dinner tables of our children. And the US ambassador has made it clear that his country intends to do exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

bent bananas?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:31 AM

Here's a good place to start, Al.

Euromyths

Including all you need to know about the false news on bananas and many, many other bits of complete nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:31 AM

Anyone remember how the Long Parliament got to be the the Rump Parliament and why? I can see parallels between then and now although I'm not sure which way those parallels go. We have an unresolved referendum, they had an unresolved civil war. Then it was Parliament against Charles, now it is The People against Parliament.

More popcorn anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:35 AM

now it is The People against Parliament.

Just now many people, Stanron? Even if all 17.4 million who voted against staying in the EU felt strongly enough to do something it is still well under 1/3 of "the people". I wouldn't bother with the popcorn if I were you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:45 AM

One of the parallels I see is that after the most devastating civil war this country has ever known, the Long Parliament wanted to put things back as they had been before the war and restore Charles to the throne.

Now after a bitterly divisive referendum campaign Parliament wants to put things back as they had been before the vote.

Will we see the Brexit party take the place of the New Model Army and give us a 'New Rump Parliament'?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 08:50 AM

Those regulations are for our benefit. They ensure that the food we buy is safe to eat, that our employers have to make us safe at work for example. I want those regulations kept.
Regulation started in the UK long before the EU
In 1833 the Government passed a Factory Act to improve conditions for children working in factories.
The first law in British history to regulate the production and sale of food began in 1266. The Assisa Panis et Cervisiæ, or Assize of Bread and Ale was developed in late Medieval English Law to regulate the price, weight and quality of manufactured bread and beer.
Mines and Collieries Act 1842, commonly known as the Mines Act 1842, was an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It prohibited all girls and boys under ten years old from working underground in coal mines
Adulteration of Food and Drink and Drugs Act 1872 made the appointment of public analysts mandatory and made it an offence to sell mixtures (chicory and coffee, for example) unless these was declared. The Act covered drugs for first time, introduced an element of central control.
Of course more recently the Cullen report on piper alpha caused a stepchange in safety in the entire worldwide oil industry

As can be demonstrated the UK was the first country to initiate legislation to protect people in the industrial age, therefore such continued legislation is not dependent on the EU.
It is completely illogical to believe such legislation would cease after leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:08 AM

Many brexit campaigners want to scrap workers rights

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:13 AM

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:28 AM

Why bother?
Your link also includes the following:

There are many employment-related issues that are not subject to EU legislation. These include pay (the National Minimum Wage is a home-grown policy), industrial action, and vocational training. Enforcement mechanisms, which are essential if rights are to be respected in practice, are also a matter for national governments alone

If the UK leaves the EU, it not clear that there will be a bonfire of employment legislation.
so why make an issue of it? more scare tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:40 AM

”Those regulations are for our benefit. They ensure that the food we buy is safe to eat, that our employers have to make us safe at work for example. I want those regulations kept.
Regulation started in the UK long before the EU
In 1833 the Government passed a Factory Act to improve conditions for children working in factories.
The first law in British history to regulate the production and sale of food began in 1266. The Assisa Panis et Cervisiæ, or Assize of Bread and Ale was developed in late Medieval English Law to regulate the price, weight and quality of manufactured bread and beer.
Mines and Collieries Act 1842, commonly known as the Mines Act 1842, was an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It prohibited all girls and boys under ten years old from working underground in coal mines
Adulteration of Food and Drink and Drugs Act 1872 made the appointment of public analysts mandatory and made it an offence to sell mixtures (chicory and coffee, for example) unless these was declared. The Act covered drugs for first time, introduced an element of central control.
Of course more recently the Cullen report on piper alpha caused a stepchange in safety in the entire worldwide oil industry

As can be demonstrated the UK was the first country to initiate legislation to protect people in the industrial age, therefore such continued legislation is not dependent on the EU.
It is completely illogical to believe such legislation would cease after leaving the EU.”

And, for precisely the reasons you have kindly detailed above, it is completely illogical to believe such legislation has been, as Al has allowed himself to be brainwashed into believing, ‘forced upon us’ by the EU. The UK has been willing and co-operative partners with the rest of the EU, not held by it in helpless serfdom, the way Brexshiteers would have the feeble-minded believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:48 AM

No they are not for our benefit. The areas of economic desolation in the country prove it. do you remember atime when English manufactured cars out numbered foreign ones on our roads? Not to mention the fishing industry which stretched round our whole coast.

I don't need some twat of a journalist to tell me what I have been witnessing for forty yeras, and what you would have seen too, if you'd been affected.

Oh then we get...that was the wicked tories...no it bloody wasn't ...it started during a Labour administration and went on uninterrrupted by any change of administration because so many of our politicians are corrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 09:57 AM

It is not illogical to point out that one of the candidates (Raab) and one person who may yet become a candidate (Patel) collaborated in a book advocating getting rid of many such regulations (Britannia Unchained)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 10:20 AM

As has been pointed out, Al. The regulations you seem to believe (incorrectly) have had a detrimental effect on the UK are either ones that the UK had a major role in defining or have nothing to do with the EU anyway. Blaming the EU is what the media barons, power brokers and money men do. Don't fall for their lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 10:30 AM

Too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 01:25 PM

US Ambassador says US wants discussion of access to NHS under trade deal

I watched the whole Andrew Marr show. This is an accurate summary in my view. But neither it or Marr explored how the idea of letting the wnd customer decide between products to EU standards and US standards cannot work without a hard border.

There was also a lot of nonsense spoken by Leadsom and Javid, especially in the light of the ambassador's comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 01:31 PM

If the Brexit-Bunch think the EU has given it to the UK straight up the arse, they ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until we're the serfs of the US, then they'll know what a ruptured anal sphincter feels like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 02:43 PM

I can remember a time when English manufactured cars outnumbered foreign ones at the side of the road with their bonnets up, it was the foreign ones which were actually moving. Things improved when foreign companies bought out many of the failed British ones and introduced their own management practices. And the availability of fish has declined, that is true, and is entirely a result of overfishing. Who fished out the North Sea Herring, it was largely the British who then deserted the industry when the catches declined. If you think there is economic desolation, you have seen nothing compared with the post brexit landscape, with no export markets. And if the financial services sector goes, who is going to pay the taxes to fund the benefits which the failed post-industrial communities rely on? You (Big Al) have a rose tinted vision of times gone by which is not in accord with reality. Things were utterly crap in the 50s, which seems to be the era you yearn for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:05 PM

compare and contrast

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 04:13 PM

all the cars were crap in that era.....the renault 4, the renault dauphine, the fiat 5, the skoda estelle, the beetle, the citroen dayane (The RAC man next door told me - please don't call me if you buy that shit.)

Still if you want to talk down British industry that sort of fits in with the Remainer philosophy.

The Aveling Barford Dumper truck division I worked for had a waiting list of seven years. The Charnos and Aristoc tights factory had full order books and order books stretching forward for four years.. French people used to come to the midlands to patronise the factory shops of viyella and celestion wood.

All gone. The result serious social problems. Homelessness, broken communities, hard drugs. I can't convince you - but that's what motivates the people you are calling brexshitters and little Englanders.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 05:07 PM

Yeah, right, Al. You appear to have forgotten the Morris Marina, the All Agro, the Maxi and the Maestro. The bloke next door to me bought a brand new Marina and was proudly showing it off to me the day he had it delivered. I reluctantly had to point out to him the widespread rust in its seams. I had the misfortune to borrow a Maestro from a mate for 18 months as he went on a world tour. It would take me three hours to tell you how terrible that car was, not least because there was no way on God's earth, despite all the mechanical knowledge on the planet brought to bear on it, that you could get that car to do more than 25 to the gallon. Actually, three hours would be too long, as the bloody thing rusted away in less time than that. And don't even begin to ask me about my Triumph Dolomite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:01 PM

the point is Steve..... Fiat, Skoda, Renault etc are all still there, despite their many sins - whereas our car factories bit the dust - mainly because their governments helped them face down the beast from the east.

As with the British motorbikes many of the cars have become design classics...the Singer Gazelle, Triumph TR7, the Reliant Scimitar, the Moggy Minor. Bet theres not many Skoda Estelle colectors out there. Not even amongst the Euro remain enthusiasts!

We were told government finacial aid was unfair competition to our gallant EEC comrades. EEc regulations...sorry old cock, nothing to be done!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:11 AM

As Shakespeare put it:
Thou marshall'st me the way that I was going;
And such an instrument I was to use.

It was ever the case that if a government does not want to give act in a certain way, it will look for reasons not to. The EU restrictions are not absolute, but they were a handy additional excuse for not helping the sorts of industries you refer to, Al. It was not really the case that the government was desperate to support such industries and the nasty EU prevented them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:21 AM

They would not need financial aid if they were decent cars and the factories better managed. The only reason they are collectors items is that so few of them survived. Why do you think the Trabant is so sought after? Besides,

A) We still have a car industry albeit owned elsewhere and
B) As I keep pointing out, the UK had as much, if not more, say in Europen legislation as the other members.

If we leave the EU we will have even less of a car industry and no say at all in European legislation. Still, you will have got rid of your lawless East Europeans so I suppose you think it's worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:24 AM

This I realise, The EEC regulations were a handy figleaf to cover the obscenity of monetarism.

Still, as the bard has it, the EEC regulations encapsulated the zeitgeist of the murder of our industrial heartland. Quite an instrument!

Bad luck to quote the Scottish play!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:27 AM

EU restrictions were never the reason for the decline of British manufacturing, the reasons were short term planning, entrenched management practices, and an unproductive workforce. Germany operated under exactly the same "restrictions". And it's not at is if was all bad in Britain, the country developed a thriving services sector, creative industries, higher education sector, to some extent even high tech manufacturing. And the NHS, which you seem desperate to flog off. The 50s were really not a great time, there was far less access to higher education. And there was far less variety of consumer goods and foodstuffs. People's expectations have risen faster than their actual wealth.

People need to move on. My grandfather was a coal miner. At least 5 and probably more generations before him were coal miners, back to the days of the bell pits. But in the 1920s, with the mines closing in Somerset, he didn't sit about moaning that he had been left behind, he crossed the country looking for different work, and found it as an electrician. His sons didn't get the chance to go to university, because of a mixture of poverty and the war, but they all emphasised to the next generation the value of education, and that they had to look for opportunities and take them, not wait for things to be presented to them on a plate.

The left behind communities will only cease to be left behind when the people in them learn to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:48 AM

Great idea! Get on their bikes and take advantage of all the career opportunities in Romania!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 04:01 AM

The question is not how well or badly the UK industry was doing, but the extent to which the EU regulations bore responsibility, either for its problems, or preventing solutions to those problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 05:20 AM

Going to work anywhere in Europe is a splendid idea, Al. One that will be made far more difficult if you and the rest of the brexiteers get your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 06:45 AM

The point is that education and relocation isn't the answer for everybody.
Take an extreme case: Django Rheinhardt. The guy was a a musical genius. But given the attitudes he grew up with ( his wife piggy backed him to gigs so that he didn't get his feet muddy) there was no course the Open University or other any gang of middle class toffs could devise that he could engage with.

A lot of us run out of road with education. Its not the answer for a lot of people. It doesn't mean we're stupid, or unworthy of a vote, or the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Its just not for us.

This was the basis of the 1940's government's contract with the British people. We fought for them keeping their king's share of the nation's wealth - but from now on they would take care of us. Provide employment, health care, a decent place to live.

Like Iains said. The Heath government basically said, fuck that! we're in the EEC. A lot of us didn't agree with that. The reasons have become obvious to everybody, apart from those who fancy themselves as somehow evolved ahead of the 1940's socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 07:48 AM

The reasons have become obvious to everybody

Have they? Not to me and I do not fancy myself as "evolved ahead of the 1940s socialism". Whatever that may mean. I am the working class son of a Polish immigrant. My Dad was a painter and decorator, supported the union all his life and hated both communism and fascism. I think some of that rubbed off on me. I was educated to GCE O level standard, started work at 16, did day release to get my ONC and was accepted on a part time economics degree that was cancelled after 4 weeks. I never bothered after that.

Yet I can see that strong trading partners with no barriers to employment will benefit me, my children and my grandchildren far more than pulling up the drawbridge and going it alone. I know we will never convince you Al but what you spout about only the middle and upper classes wanting to remain is utter nonsense. You could at least have the grace to admit that you just don't want "the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston" (your words) that you have complained about before.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 08:10 AM

”The reasons have become obvious to everybody

Have they? Not to me and I do not fancy myself as "evolved ahead of the 1940s socialism". Whatever that may mean. I am the working class son of a Polish immigrant. My Dad was a painter and decorator, supported the union all his life and hated both communism and fascism. I think some of that rubbed off on me. I was educated to GCE O level standard, started work at 16, did day release to get my ONC and was accepted on a part time economics degree that was cancelled after 4 weeks. I never bothered after that.

Yet I can see that strong trading partners with no barriers to employment will benefit me, my children and my grandchildren far more than pulling up the drawbridge and going it alone. I know we will never convince you Al but what you spout about only the middle and upper classes wanting to remain is utter nonsense.”

Amen, Dave, Amen.

Your story very closely mirrors my own - except that my dad was the British-born son of the British-born son of a South African immigrant and was a fitter in an engineering works, and my mother was the daughter of a dock-worker - and Al’s thinly-veiled suggestion that I’m ‘Middle-Class’, and living in an ‘affluent area’ is ill-informed and, quite frankly, laughable.

The wish to Remain in the EU has very little to do with ‘class’, and everything to do with having a brain and using it to sort out the lies and bullshit from facts and truth, and not seeking a scapegoat for one’s dissatisfaction with one’s lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 08:13 AM

Sorry, that should have been, “The wish to remain in the EU, in my personal case, has very little to do with ‘class’....”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 09:43 AM

I have a good idea. Those that voted to leave can go to the USA with The Trump later this week. They can avoid all those harmful EU laws, not be limited to the hours they work or take any holidays and pay for their own health and social care. The rest of us can stay in Europe where we belong and benefit from a reduction in the number of right wing little Englanders as well as better employment laws, more social care and higher food standards. The roads should be quieter with 17 million less people too:-) win-win!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:14 AM

All very well - piss off, you effectively say.

It was our parents who fought for this country. Our excessive tax burden on very low wages that kept the country going through the years when it was dispensing charity with both hands to the EU.

You've paid for the meal, give us the money for the night club - now you can bugger off.

You can see, its middle class kids powering this drive towards sodding up the economy permanently. You've heard this attitude to their parents for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:22 AM

Oh dear, oh dear.

One of the heroes of Iains took an EU loan and moved his operation to Malaysia.

Well who'd have guessed it.!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 10:27 AM

Yet he still pays over £100,000,000 in tax this last year to the UK. What miserable amount can you generate?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 11:54 AM

Any evidence for that statement .............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:16 PM

The richest 1% in the UK contribute 28% of all income tax, with famous names including David and Victoria Beckham in the top 50 taxpayers. Sir James Dyson, Mike Ashley and the Beckham family were among those who paid the most tax in the UK last year.Jan 27, 2019
Sir James Dyson is third on the list with £127.8m.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:30 PM

The richest 1% in the UK contribute 28% of all income tax

And have rather more left after tax than most. No, this is not "envy", it just presenting both sides of the picture as you recommend elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:35 PM

Dyson I presume? The company who's profits topped £1 billion last year? By anyone's reckoning £100 million is 10% of £1 billion using the US definition of 1 billion being 1000 million. Why have they paid so little when even the basic rate of tax to us mere mortals is 20%?

Al, wtf has our parents fighting in the war got to do with anything? If you hadn't noticed, there has been peace in Europe for nearly 75 years now. While the EU is not directly responsible for that, it plays a huge role. What is this EU charity we have been paying our hard earned wages to? You are talking nonsense now. Which brings us to middle class kids ruining the economy. You have lost me there. Just who are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 12:38 PM

...and, yes, it is you that wants to leave Europe. Not me. If you really want to do so, feel free. But don't take me with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 01:54 PM

People setting off to fight on D day, reportedly said we expect jobs when we get back. THe EEC, the international capitalism (with rich folk investing everywhere but Britain) and big bang economics that came in its wake have done for British industry and the jobs.

The Welfare State was what the war heroes voted for when they returned.

I'm sorry you don't see the significance. Europe has gone missing whenever we have been threatened or needed their cooperation ever since.

Whether its been sympathy for the IRA in the Euro Courts, or denying airspace for bombing Gadaffi after the Lockerbie bomb, supplying Galtieri - and a dozen other examples - they always go missing or worse.

If it had been us that needed help this side of the English Channel - the 2nd WW wouldn't have happened. If doing sod all is helping to keep the peace - they're the boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 01:59 PM

Iains mate ...that point about tax....you're making us look stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM

If doing sod all is helping to keep the peace - they're the boys.

They have managed it for nearly 75 years. Longest period of peace Europe has ever known.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:26 PM

That has more to do with NATO than the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:32 PM

Maybe. Maybe it was a lot of factors. But they all work towards keeping the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:36 PM

I have a good idea. Those that voted to leave can go to the USA with The Trump later this week.

SOD THAT !!! We have more than a sufficiency of utter fuckwits here already, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jun 19 - 02:39 PM

If Trump has his way you can kiss goodbye to NATO as well.