BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 03:11 AM

Don't forget anti-Semitism, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 05:35 AM

Let us look at the facts{

1)the elected MP is on record in public media for antisemitic remarks
2)Peterborough has one of the highest concentration of Moslems in the UK
From the Guardian: For Amjad Iqbal and Shabina Qayyum, two                                  Peterborough councillors, the result highlighted the importance of Labour support in the Asian community. "I would say the Muslim vote played a vital role in Lisa Forbes's success," Iqbal said.
3)The turnout for the postal vote was 69.4%
4)Vetting for a postal vote is far more rigorous in northern Ireland, compared to mainland Britain.(Why is that I wonder?)
5) in recent years, Peterborough City council signed-up to a government pilot scheme that would legally require voters to attend polling stations with their passport or other form of ID in order to vote. This, although doing nothing to prevent postal fraud, would have had a positive impact in tackling vote-rigging. Peterborough's participation in this logical scheme, however, was curiously cancelled by the local government shortly before the snap-election called by Theresa May in 2018.
6)Tariq Mahmood, found himself behind bars in recent years over his involvement in a Labour-led vote-rigging scandal that cost the taxpayer over £1m to investigate, and also resulted in the arrest and
eventual imprisonment of a former Labour Mayor.
In 2008, Labour's Mohammed Choudhary, 49, former mayor of Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, was jailed at King's Lynn Crown Court.
Party candidate Maqbool Hussein, 52, was jailed for three months and Tariq Mahmood, 40, received a 15-month term.All three from Peterborough, were convicted of forgery over a scheme to fabricate votes for the Peterborough city council election in June 2004.
"They were able to get hold of postal and proxy votes which belonged to voters in the central ward," prosecuting QC Anthony Leonard said.
7)The results in last years election – as with the majority of those before it – provide shocking reading, with Labour Fiona Onasanya beating Tory Brexiteer Stewart Jackson by a mere 607 votes, whilst the number of postal votes, particularly from central wards with a considerably high Pakistani community, being among the highest Peterborough had seen.
8)Lisa Thorbes won this time by a majority of 683
9) Up until the election of Fiona Onasanya the seat had been in Conservative hands since 1929 !
10)The convicted vote-rigger Tariq Mahmood was ONCE AGAIN employed by the local Labour election team and by Lisa Forbes in the latest election.
11)In 2015, a Peterborough Tory candidate made national headlines after his car was set on fire during his election campaign – allegedly by local Labour Pakistani youths who had attacked him to dissuade him from continuing to stand. A petrol bomb was also thrown at his front door, but luckily there were no casualties.
12)In 2016, Lord Pickles released a thorough official report as the culmination of an extensive investigation into the causes of electoral fraud in Britain.In the report commissioned by the Government, Sir Eric Pickles, the former Conservative Cabinet minister, warned that the authorities are in a "state of denial" and are "turning a blind eye" to election fraud due to "political correctness".
He revealed strong evidence of voter fraud "especially in communities of Pakistani and Bangladeshi background" but that the cases have been ignored because of "over-sensitivities about ethnicity and religion".

If you do not think that the postal voting needs to be investigated then you obviously no longer believe in Democracy and intend to win for the left by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:15 AM

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/sir-eric-pickles-publishes-report-into-tackling-electoral-fraud
A series of 50 recommendations are outlined in the report, including:

    clamping down on postal vote 'harvesting' by political activists
    piloting some form of identification at polling stations
   fraud
    stronger checks and balances against municipal corruption

published Aug 2016 Has the lack of progress on Brexit also stalled the recommended reforms?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:39 AM

Has the lack of progress on Brexit also stalled the recommended reforms?

Perhaps. It is obvious that those who promoted Brexit in the first place grossly underestimated how difficult it would be, and the inevitable complexity has prevented all sorts of things being carries out. And no, leaving with no deal would not have solved the complexity, because we would - and will if that happens - then be swapped trying to cope with the consequences of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:57 AM

Well needless to say my last line was written tongue in cheek. After all as I stated above Peterborough City council signed-up to a government pilot scheme that would legally require voters to attend polling stations with their passport or other form of ID in order to vote. Peterborough's participation in this logical scheme was curiously cancelled shortly before the snap-election called by Theresa May in 2018. The wily demographic of Peterborough named have extensive form for election fraud confirmed by the governments own report.

I suspect there is much more to be said about this particular
by-election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:21 PM

Ah, Eric Pickles. A superb understanding of the life of the common man!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:33 PM

Other than Peterborough voted strongly for leave in 2016 yet decided not to vote Farage's motley crew in 3 years later, WTF has all this got to do with brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:46 PM

It’s our RRWE’s diversion tactics - Brexit Party lost the By-Election in Peterborough? “Look over there...Labour vote-rigging”! He’ll drag anti-semitism into it shortly!

BTW, I just noticed. Hasn’t Eric Pickles got tiny hands!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:02 PM

WTF has all this got to do with brexit?

It is all to do with democracy, just like honouring the Brexit referendum Result

and for those that are convinced postal vote shenanigans cannot occur in a ward with previous!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7985257/Five-jailed-for-electoral-fraud.html


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-47535867

Over 16000 have now signed the petition to investigate the postal vote.

Interesting the Electoral Commissioners have not investigated. Had the Tories come second I suspect a very different outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:10 PM

Ok, back to Brexit. Here is a LONG youtube article which is an interview from last December between Rory Stewart, now a prospective candidate for PM, and James O'Brien. As a reminder, that was around six months before May resigned.

As I have said before, to me Rory Stewart talks more sense than any of the other potential PMs. However, because he goes for sense rather than cheer-leading, he stands little or no prospect of success.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:14 PM

Of far more significance for brexit are the number of missing postal votes during the referendum. Quite possibly more than the margin that leave had.

Now there is something worth investigating rather than pandering to naughty Nigel's little tantrums.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:14 PM

So just 0.25 percent of activists have said we should investigate this ..............


0.25 percent ......... I think I could get many people to say Boddington's beer is not as good as it used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:16 PM

Sorry for the failed clicky. Try C&Ping the URL

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-disenfranchised-expats-denied-eu-referendum-missing-postal-votes-demand-re-run-hundreds-a7103066.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:18 PM

”Over 16000 have now signed the petition to investigate the postal vote.”

So?? Over SIX MILLION Signed the petition to revoke A50, and you and the other BrexShit-supporters here said it should be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:20 PM

Anyway, stop whining, grow a pair of balls, man-up, and accept that WE WON, GET OVER IT.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 02:46 PM

Why are you still addressing the twonk, John?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 03:27 PM

I know, Dave - Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 04:52 AM

There is a major distinction to be made between signing a petition
1)to rerun a perfectly legal referendum because you cannot accept the majority vote
2)to investigate potential electoral fraud, in an area where previous criminal activity has been associated with voting irregularities.

If you think both petitions are the same further discussion with you is pointless, because you obviously lack the knowledge to be able to differentiate between a potential crime and   a refusal to accept a democratic vote. Your recent contributions are merely intended to provoke instead of addressing the issues.
Your Peterborough Labour MP has now been castigated by 6 Labour MPs for her antisemitic stance and yet Corbyn refuses to act. Do you not think that is a matter for concern, especially in the light of a recently initiated formal investigation into antisemitism within the Labour Party? Your attempts here to trivialise and mock their nvestigation will have zero impact on its outcome.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/investigation-opened-labour-party-following-complaints-about-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 02:08 AM

A letter here, from a number of eminent individuals with intellects immensely superior to that of our Resident Right-Wing Extremist, and minds considerably more open than his, expressing concern about biased reporting of alleged ‘anti-semitism’ in the LP, and Jeremy Corbyn in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 04:50 AM

You could point out that all the facts are substantiated by a report from the media reform coilition, John, but that would encourage him to greater heights of nonsensical invective. Far better just to leave it to the moderation team. Nowt to do with brexit so quite rightly destined for the bin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 05:24 AM

Well, to drag matters back from opportunistic and sour-grapist attacks on "Labour's antisemitism," so predictable and so shabby, there's a piece in today's Guardian ("EU view of Tory leadership candidates deeply critical, say sources") that should burst the over-optimistic and hubristic bubble in which the leading candidates appear to exist. Johnson, Raab and Hunt are all, in turn, excoriated and shrugged at. If they really think that the EU is in any shape or form going to reopen negotiations on "the deal" then they are sadly deluded. No matter who wins the poisoned chalice they will simply be Theresa May Mk II as far as the EU is concerned. Not only that, there will still be no parliamentary majority for the Tories and no majority for anything remotely like anything that's been on the table so far, certainly not for no-deal. I note that talk of the 39 billion is in the offing again. Just think about the reaction of our biggest trading partner if we crash out and refuse to pay our dues...

The Tory leadership bid is just as amazingly unreal as the whole bloody brexit shambles. One noticeable thing from the Guardian piece, however, is that Gove doesn't figure in it. In spite of his obnoxiously-patronising attitude and his sheer hypocrisy over his drug-taking (about which, frankly, I give not a shit, even though I've never taken an illicit substance in my life), I have a funny feeling that he'd be the least bad of a bloody awful bunch...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:24 AM

so predictable and so shabby
Yup. look at Labour in Peterborough having a criminal convicted of electoral fraud helping in the last couple of elections,with the postal votes concentrated in one ward. Political correctness and accusations of waycism are inhibiting the clean up of these Augean stables.

“For the Parliamentary by-election held on 6 June 2019 there were 13,682 postal votes issued”, an official announcement from Peterborough’s returning officer began. “9,898 of these were returned of which 400 were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth (or both) not matching our records.”
The number of votes cast at the various polling stations across the City was 24,500. Overall, the total number of verified ballot papers (including the almost 10,000 postal votes that made their way to the count room) was 33,998.

This means that of the votes counted that led to the win of Labour’s anti-semitic candidate Lisa Forbes, a whopping 29% were postal votes – a method of voting renowned for the way in which it is easily manipulated by election-riggers like Tariq Mahmood and his murky associates.

The jaw-dropping figure also equates to a staggering 69.6% valid return rate of all postal votes sent out.
But that wasn’t the only shock in store for Peterborians and citizens across the country, as the council’s statement also unwittingly exposed the equally damning results of the 2017 snap election, which saw incumbent Tory Brexiteer Stewart Jackson lose his seat to criminal Fiona Onasanya by under 700 votes.

“In the 2017 Parliamentary election for the Peterborough constituency there were 14,293 postal votes issued” the announcement continued. “11,930 of these were returned of which 379 were rejected due to either the signature or date of birth (or both) not matching our records. This equates to 81% valid return rate”,

During both elections – for Labour’s Onasanya and Labour’s Lisa Forbes – close friend of Peterborough Labour leader Shaz Nawaz, convicted vote-rigger Tariq Mahmood, was hired to play a key role in the election campaign team and on both occasions, despite his fondness for destroying democracy, was given exclusive access to the election count room.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:45 AM

"so predictable and so shabby. Yup. look at Labour in Peterborough having a criminal convicted of electoral fraud helping in the last couple of elections,with the postal votes concentrated in one ward. Political correctness and accusations of waycism are inhibiting the clean up of these Augean stables."

And this from the man who frequently quotes the ex bankrupt, four times convicted Paul Staines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:50 AM

Brexit a shambles? "Look over there - Labour anti-semitism!".

Brexit Party beaten in the Peterborough By-Election? "Look over there, Labour vote-rigging!".

Is that really the best they, or their delusional, red-faced-Gammon supporters can do?

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 06:51 AM

Financially, ex bankrupt. Morally, still so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 08:01 AM

And this from the man who frequently quotes the ex bankrupt, four times convicted Paul Staines

I look forward to seeing you supply the evidence for the above. Are you trying to play the same silly games as he who must not be mentioned?
Just one quote will suffice. Failing that an apology will fit the bill nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 08:10 AM

Easily done, From one of your posts dated 7th April.

"https://order-order.com/2019/04/05/corbyns-evidence-shows-cooking-books-terrorist-wreath-laying-trip/

from Guido of course. The scourge of bubbleheaded leftards!"

I don't expect an apology, people of your ilk never apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 10:40 AM

I guess I will have to grovel. I had it fixed in my mind you were using a nom de plume of Mr Robinson whom I have frequently been accused of supporting.

If we are going to disregard journalists because of drunk driving, bankruptcy and other failings and not gauge their worth by their editorial content, why hold politicians in such high esteem? Were you not one of those arguing they were mighty men like men of yore, much more qualified to make decisions than the little people. One quite happily admits to having used class One drugs, one has been booted out for perverting the course of justice,several are subject to possible recall procedures because of lying to their electorate and labour MPs have been accused of antisemitism. I would suggest their feet of clay are far more hydrated than those of Mr Guido.
Let us look at Mr Gove,a PM hopeful.
After the revelation that Gove was sniffing lines of cocaine whilst writing lines attacking middle-class cocaine use, rival campaigns are now trawling through Gove’s Times articles looking for interesting policy positions. One that was passed to Guido is particularly appealing and would likely go down a treat with a large segment of the Tory membership. “Bring back hanging”, a classic vote winner with Tory members if there ever was one!
or
Chucklebuttie having her kids educated in public schools, with
Diane Abbot, Emily Thornberry and Seumas Milne sending their children to selective state schools, while Angela Rayner blasted the Government’s plans for a new model of grammar schools insisting they “do not improve social mobility” and are “not good for our education system”. Classic labour hypocrisy there I am afraid. Dachas for the elite, the gulags for the hoipolloi

Your outrage would appear most exceedingly selective,but then blinkers are a by product of wearing lefty rose tinted specs.
Too much gruniard addles the brain!

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 10:56 AM

" same silly games as he who must not be mentioned?"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/5173475/Guido-Fawkes-the-colourful-life-of-the-man-who-brought-down-Damian-McBride.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:00 AM

Any good news about BrexShit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:04 AM

Editorial content my arse, sound bites of the lowest quality from a disreputable, right wing blogger, who had links to the BNP and described himself as a "right-wing pain in the butt" who, again in his own words, "sought to "smear Labour MPs and left-leaning lawyers and writers"

Strange bedfellows you keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:37 AM

I have just spoken to the passport office and despite the fact we have not left the EU, they are already refusing to issue European Union Passports.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 12:19 PM

Hello Jim. Good to see you back :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 11:17 PM

Steve, I thought my last post about the pre-emptive actions of the passport office was pertinent to the thread subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 02:14 AM

It was very pertinent, SPB. It is a good example of how we have managed to get some of the imagery Brexiteers want, but none of the substance.

The value of a passport is entirely in how other countries treat it (plus some in-country ID purposes.) To that end, it matters not a jot whether the cover says European, United Kingdom, Rivendell or The Land of the Orange Ogres(*). Do other countries - France, Germany US, Argentina, Thailand and the hundred or so others - recognise it as valid? That is all that counts in the end. So changing the wording on the cover has the same real significance as changing the colour. A meaningless alteration to keep Brexiteers happier, but no change of any significance at all.


* A friend once lived in a rented property of that name. Any similarity to Trump is co-incidental.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 09:29 AM

There are many nasty things found in Irish bogs. One, that is yet another import, is the Canadian Pitcher Plant.
First the victim is lured to the rim of the pitchers by attractive meaty-coloured patterns, and by tempting droplets of nectar. When the victim aarives, it soon loses its footing on the slippery ridges around the throat of the pitcher, helped by hairs which point downward preventing its escape. Victims drown in a watery grave containing digestive juices and detergents for penetrating the microscopic breathing holes along the sides of an insect's body.

The plant increases its chances of making a successful catch by spicing its nectar with intoxicating narcotic, so that the victims roll around in a drunken stupor. The walls of the pitcher are lined with slippery cells, and with no foothold to grab onto, the prisoner slowly falls into the watery depths of the pitcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 10:16 AM

Possibly his most coherent post to date.

Back to Brexit. A cross party motion aims to give PM the opportunity to block a no-deal exit from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 12:02 PM

The cross party motion failed. The government has won and rightly so.
A Lawful opposition is one thing,trying to wrest control of Parliament with no accountability smacks of sedition.
Perhaps this should be tested in the courts- it has far more substance than numbers on the side of a bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 12:54 PM

trying to wrest control of Parliament with no accountability

It is possible to argue that the attempt was wise, or unwise. It is possible to argue that the attempt was desirable or not. It is possible to argue that it was a good use of an opposition day or not.

Just about the only thing it is not possible to argue was that it was not accountable. The opposition had to account for the reasons they wanted to do this, and Parliament held them to account and found them wanting. But is was 100% held to account for its proposal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 02:24 PM

Not so. Parliament must be accountable to the electorate. For a rabble to seize control with the connivance of the speaker leads to zero accountability. There lies the way to the socialist paradise, National Socialism, a totalitarian state! It can onlybe described as reckless behaviour
" The Commons is not itself able to govern. Governing requires coherence    in    responding    to    events    and    circumstances    nationally    and internationally. Therefore, for so long as the Commons is unwilling to withdraw its confidence, Her Majesty’s ministers can and should insist on their responsibility to govern. Legislation designed to usurp the Government’s functions should be blocked, in the first instance by relying on the House’s own procedures. If the Speaker were to subvert the normal rules, as he has, the Government might   legitimately   prorogue   Parliament,   ending   a   session   of   Parliament prematurely to prevent a Bill from being passed by both Houses.


https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Endangering-Constitutional-Government.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 03:22 PM

I guess all the tricks that May tried to bypass governmental procedures has been forgotten by the Mayflies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 03:44 PM

Ye gods and little fishes ....... sorry guys I know this is not strictly Brexit but one of the Tory hopefuls as leader of the party, and therefore the government, who have to sort out the complete shambles left by May is alleged to have claimed £8,750 in expenses for a personal photographer.

WHAT!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/12/esther-mcvey-expensed-thousands-of-pounds-for-personal-photographer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 05:05 PM

The significance is that if we are forced to leave without a deal, for the next 10 years when we visit other states we can pretend to be ignorant and try to use the biometric microchip gates on the grounds that an EU passport should work in EU passport channels. If enough visitors do this, then hopefully passport officials will eventually get fed up and just give us free movement anyway.

A more important issue is that by virtue of being a national in an EU member state, we enjoy the same visa-free travel as the rest of the EU outside of the EU - for example ETA for visiting Canada. What has the FCO done so far to force the rest of the world to put in place identical passport arrangements for the UK on 1 November - just in case?? If Visas will be required in the future, what arrangements have the FCO made to ensure that the tax payer and not the individual foots the bill?   What arrangements have the FCA made in the event of reciprocal visaless travel ending to force the embassies and consular offices to have staff at every airport in the UK to process visas at less than an hour's notice, and for the FCA present to pay the visa fees?

Another issue - HM Customs have not yet confirmed that there will be no change to the rules regarding limits and duties of purchases made in EU states, or if there will be changes, the FCO putting in place measures for the tax payers rather than the individual to pay the additional duties.

What measures have the FCA put in place to force the EU to allow UK nationals to live/study/work in/retire to other EU states beyond the 90 day restrictions that applies to the rest of the world?

We are about to face the biggest degradation of our rights in living memory, and our useless government is prepared to just let it happen as if people don't matter?

Finally, why are UK nationals, if they fall in love with someone fro Europe, why leavers think they have the right to decide whether or not they can pursue heir relationships. If the Tories get away with the minimum wage cap, then surely we should be deporting all UK nationals who fail to meet the same earning level. In my book having different rules for different people is racist.

I could go on for hours about further losses of rights, but I will leave it at this. I hope all the above is in line with the original purpose of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 12:30 AM

SPB The exception will be travel from uk to ireland, this is covered by the common travel arrangement which predates either country joining the common market, however the whole situation is a complete mess, what is need is either a general election or a second referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 02:15 AM

I am not so sure about the Common Travel Area exception. It did exist before the EU, certainly, but at the time the Republic did not have the free movement with France, etc etc: it had a hard border with Europe. As a member of the EU, that has changed. So now there is free movement into the Republic, there would be free movement via the CTA between the Republic and the North, and free movement between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

This may happen, because Parliament doesn't seem to think at all about Ireland unless it is forced into it, but I think there is only one way of avoiding it while still having a CTA: much more frequent ID checks of all UK citizens as they go about their daily business to find people who have got in by some means. I think it very unlikely to go anything like this far, but in extremis it would be police demanding to see your papers whenever they wished. We have already gone a fair way down this road as it is, with identity needing to be proved when getting a job, or renting a flat, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:07 AM

Obligation to show papers/ID on the street would be a massive erosion of freedoms, almost going back to wartime/cold war Europe. Even countries that have retain obligations to carry id rarely enforce it these days, unlike 70s 80s Czechoslovakia where the brutal VB would arrest people for not carrying id and carry out frequent spot check to make sure people are complying

We indeed seem to be shifting towards far right politics, and if that happens, the impact on personal freedom would be far far worse that what leavers wrongly imaging that the EU impose on us.

Reading that farage whats to relax gun laws should be a serious warning of what may be to come in the future.

The trouble is that the EU have been so good at creating cohesion that virtually everyone in the UK has forgotten what living in a fascist state means, and as mainland UK was never occupied in WW2 the noone here has experienced it for real, and bizarrely British people now would prefer to live in an insular, oppressive state, rather than the freedoms we enjoy through international cooperation.

We should be worried about that and also the readiness of people to blame people from Europe for their oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:15 AM

Just to be clear - I am strongly opposed to such ID checks. It is simply that it is one way of overcoming the problems that some of the more right-wing will come up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:35 AM

I think it very unlikely to go anything like this far, but in extremis it would be police demanding to see your papers whenever they wished
This already happens within the EU in some countries. From personal experience I know that it happens regularly in Spain and Ireland if driving a vehicle Most of the time it is to check the car is legally on the road, but in both countries a driving license must be carried while driving so it is not unusual to be asked to show it. Other road blocks in Ireland are more thorough,involving social welfare and revenue officers as wellas the Gardaí, but are not as common. The UK is very lucky that such roadblocks are extremely rare, but ANPR has much the same impact.
Whether such checks are a good or bad thing, or if they reduce criminality, is another discussion. The reality is that such checks already exist elsewhere within the EU and are not considered onerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 04:39 AM

"The trouble is that the EU have been so good at creating cohesion that virtually everyone in the UK has forgotten what living in a fascist state means, and as mainland UK was never occupied in WW2 the noone here has experienced it for real, and bizarrely British people now would prefer to live in an insular, oppressive state, rather than the freedoms we enjoy through international cooperation."

That's an excellent point. We are the only EU country that didn't endure Nazi occupation. That helps to explain the difference between our insular national mindset (if there is such a thing) and that of the other EU members. I suppose they recall far more sharply than we do why the Common Market was founded in the first place. Neither my children nor I have ever been called up to fight in a European war. One of the many good reasons for being a member of the EU is to keep that threat at bay. And were there to be no no EU it would be a real threat, what with the rise of far-right populism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:22 AM

"The trouble is that the EU have been so good at creating cohesion that virtually everyone in the UK has forgotten what living in a fascist state means
Not quite true.
The Brexit party
Le Pen
Continual rioting in France including teargas released on May Day
Catalonia and banned MEP and Independence struggle.
I could go on!
A report rather out of date in view of the recent EU MEP elections.


https://www.ecfr.eu/publications/summary/crisis_cohesion_ten_year_review
and this has to be read with the Mandy Rice-davies view that "They would say that wouldn't they?"