BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:52 AM

That's an excellent point. We are the only EU country that didn't endure Nazi occupation.
For starters there's:
Ireland
Iceland
Portugal
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland,

Also any countries which were Allies of Germany wouldn't have "endured Nazi occupation".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 06:24 AM

Ireland....................... Neutral in WW11
Iceland.......................      Ditto
Portugal......................      Ditto
Spain.........................      Ditto **
Sweden........................      Ditto
Switzerland...................      Ditto


** Franco did send just one "Blue" Division to fight one the Eastern Front

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 06:57 AM

Adopting the very finest Nitpicking-Nigs tradition, I’d just mention that neither Iceland nor Switzerland are EU Member-States.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 08:57 AM

That was a careless error on my part. I could have said one of the very few countries now in the EU not to have endured a fascist regime in the 20th century. Switzerland isn't an EU country, by the way. The point stands, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:03 AM

The dissolution of the EU would make war in Europe far more likely. The EU insists on democracy in its member states. Without the EU it is likely that some countries would retreat from democracy. We live in times in which the far right is in ascendancy. Democracies rarely fight each other in wars. The last pan-European war led to the murder of six million Jews by fascists. Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:28 AM

The last pan-European war led to the murder of six million Jews by fascists. Remember?
"pan-European"= across the whole of Europe.
I thought Steve Shaw had just accepted that not all of Europe was at war, nor even 'occupied'.

It seems he's back to Humpty-Dumpty use of English.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:29 AM

hi

there are a number of comments saying that we were the only EU country

that was not occupied in WW2.

The Channel Islands were occupied for most of the war.

I have been to the Channel Islands and have seen many examples of occupation. The underground hospital is probably the best example.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:36 AM

Nigel, the rest of us understood just what Steve was saying, why oh why do you have to be so pedantic.

Tell you what, give us some good news about Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 10:45 AM

"Give us some good news . . ."
All being well it will happen by 31 October 2019.
Of course, you may not consider that good news!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:00 AM

Again, everyone understands what was meant Nigel. Is there any news that says brexit will benefit the economy? Benefit the peace in Northern Ireland? Benefit the ordinary people of the UK as opposed to the Rees-Moggs and Rupert Murdochs of the world? Benefit the scientific research world? Benefit pan-European and world security? Benefit anything at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:02 AM

No not really Nigel.

Have you heard or read of any positive forecasts for the UK economy post Brexit for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 11:48 AM

From dictionary.com:
pan-European:

"adjective:
of or relating to all or most of the countries of Europe."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 05:59 PM

Totally brilliant and heartrending contribution at the beginning of Question Time from Francesca Martinez. If you missed it catch it on the repeat or iPlayer. If you still vote Tory after hearing it, you deserve to hang your head in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

What a woman! Magnificent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 04:39 AM

It's gone viral, Steve. If anyone wants to see it just do a search for "Francesca Martinez Question Time" and you will find it all over the place. Magnificent indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 06:44 AM

Francesca’s dignity, despite her obvious emotion during her reply, should make our Right-Wing Extremists, Tory apologists, and Brexit-fan-boys here crawl back into their holes in shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 06:55 AM

I missed it. Having heard the first question to be an unpleasantly phrased question on Boris, I went back to watching Fantom on Quest. They were renovating an old Citroen 2CV and it ended with a can can moment. When I switched back someone was finally calling the BBC out on its anti Brexit bias. Fiona denied it of course but it's becoming more and more obvious. There was an Andrew Marr show four or five weeks ago where he interviewed five remainers on the trot. In the last five minutes of the program he spoke to someone I'd not heard of who wanted the kind of soft Brexit that isn't really leaving at all. I can't see how that is anything other than deliberate bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 07:31 AM

Strange that Stanron, because from the other side of the fence I perceive a pro-brexit bias not only on the BBC but throughout the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 08:12 AM

Absolutely massive pro-brexit Media bias. From 'Left Foot Forward' - A leftist website but the facts are correct.

Over a quarter (27.3 per cent) of the press is owned by Lord Rothermere and 24.9 per cent by Rupert Murdoch – between them these two men have over 50 per cent of the printed press.

Over three quarters (77.8 per cent) of the press is owned by a handful of billionaires. There are only 88 billionaires among the 63 million people in the UK and most of the barons do not even live in the UK.

Not to mention Sky TV.

Do you think those billionaires want their tax affairs inspected by the new EU tax avoidance rules?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 08:15 AM

Wow. Has there been an Andrew Marr show where he interviewed five Brexiteers and only one remainer? If it occurred in the last few weeks I will have missed it because I no longer watch the program.

I admit that there can be a tendency to be over sensitive to opposing views but five interviews with remainers in one program?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 10:04 AM

Does Andrew Marr work for Murdoch, Rothermere or any of the other billionaire press barons? If the BBC are showing any bias, which I would dispute, it is more than suitably offset by the mega-rich cabal providing most of the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 10:58 AM

I am not sure which edition of the Andrew Marr show is being referred to, but he went through all the prospective PMs, either directly or via one of there supporters over a period of several weeks. It may be you regard 5 of these as remainers, but if so, they were all squeezed into a single show, whereas the other candidates will have got a longer slot on another day.

If that is not what you are referring to, please identify exactly which show and which 5 remainers and we can discuss it more meaningfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 11:33 AM

It wasn't Tory leaders. The only one who's name I remember was Vince Cable. Another one might have been Chuka Umunna or Anna Soubry talking about the Change party. Probably someone from the Labour party calling for a second referendum and another talking about stopping a no deal exit. All current news stories but also all strongly anti Brexit. I remember being astonished at there being four or five on the trot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 07:43 PM

From Twitter:

@bbcquestiontime
Jun 13
“Whatever your politics, you can agree that punishing disabled and sick people for falling on hard times is absolutely morally wrong and they have blood on their hands”

@chessmartinez on the government’s austerity policy. #bbcqt pic.twitter.com/3zQUDVLvOa (https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1139288950525349888/video/1)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Jun 19 - 09:01 PM

just saying this is what we are about - gerard depardieu, plastic bertrand, nena and her balloons, rod stewart, camembert, et les vins de wherever, jean paul sartre, frankie van der elst, johann cruyff, serge gainsbourg et jane birkin of course and , thierry henry, ian dury, chartres cathedral, daniel auteuil, tintin, spiral, and decency.....and virgil van dyke and pep and jurgen klopp and this is us - and if it isn't why not? shove your racist nasty shite up your old sad arses. farage ? boris johnson? fucksake, get a grip

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 11:09 AM

You can hear the whole of her amazing diatribe on YouTube, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 11:39 AM

I found that Twitter link and saved it here after trying to listen to another link and the message popped up that I couldn't listen from my location. That bit I posted is to the point!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

According to the Independent:

Labour Party members will have the opportunity to force Jeremy Corbyn to commit fully to a fresh Brexit referendum, after the party bowed to pressure to stage a consultation.
The grassroots survey will be launched next month and conclude by early August, The Independent can reveal – paving the way for the policy shift as a new hardline Conservative prime minister arrives in No 10, supporters believe.

We will see if this actually happens - so far only the Independent seems to be claiming it will - and we will see how the results are handled come the conference. Calling for a referendum, for example, does not say what the question on such a referendum would be. Combine this with the rising suspicion that a Johnson PM would be forced into a general election and how the two strands combine will be very significant: will Labour commit to a referendum on any Brexit deal as part of its manifesto, for example?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 04:04 AM

It seems quite likely to me the a Johnson PM would force a no-deal through then immediately call a general election. My expectation is that on the morning after a no-deal the ordinary person will attempt to go about their job exactly as they did before, unless somebody tells them otherwise, and this will carry on until some part or drug or rule from on high stops them. Stockpiling will delay this point (but Christmas is a complication if the October date holds.) So it could be a month or two before no-deal really bites.

So the Tory pitch would be:

a) we have delivered Brexit
b) the claims it will all collapse have proven unfounded
c) we need a majority to deliver everything in the manifesto.

That could be a winning path, as it weakens Farage a lot and the fears of the remainers seem unfounded. But the longer it is delayed, the greater the risks, as no-deal Brexit is more like a house of cards - it can stand successfully for a while, but if it falls, it could do quite dramatically. Wait until the legal limit for an election and that could have happened. Do it early enough after a no-deal and you will get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 04:27 AM

A General Election would seem the only clean way to solve the present impasse. But it is fraught with all sorts of possibilities.
Tory and Labour will have to state a very clear position on Brexit (a herculean task for both)
How real is the support for the Lib Dems?
How much support would the Brexit party lose to a Boris premiership?
How real is the Brexit party threat
How many MPs will be deselected by their own constituency parties?
What confidence, if any, can be placed in polls prior to an election.


Any party manifestos will have to take very clear positions on Brexit.
Flimflam will not work a second time around. Labour will have to come off the fence or be destroyed. The Tories will have to support Brexit or be destroyed.
It will be a 4 horse race with two running as dark horses. Determining the winner will be a challenge, even for the bookies.

However
"A ComRes undertaken for The Daily Telegraph suggests that the current voting intention sees Labour ahead with 27 percent, and the Conservatives four percent behind with 23 percent of the vote.

According to the poll, which was undertaken between June 7 and 9, the Brexit Party would achieve 22 percent of the vote, the Liberal Democrats 17 percent, and the Green Party five percent.

Bringing up the rear would be the SNP with three percent, and Plaid Cymru, Change UK and UKIP all with one percent.

The ComRes poll was of 2,017 British adults and taken between June 7 and 9.
Whereas
he latest poll from YouGov shows the Brexit Party remains in the lead for general election voting intention.

The poll, conducted on behalf of the Times between June 9 and 10, asked 1,702 British adults what their voting intention was in Westminster.
The Brexit Party took the lead with 26 percent of the vote.

confused or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 04:34 AM

Which is why I think the Johnson strategy is to call for a general election after a no deal. Then almost all the points you raise disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 05:44 AM

I think if Boris pulls that off I will have to believe in miracles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 11:24 AM

POLICE are investigating allegations of electoral fraud during the Peterborough by-elections, which saw Labour trump the Brexit Party by a narrow margin.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48665324
No smoke without fire!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 12:17 PM

I think you meant "innocent until proven guilty."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 02:07 PM

There is nothing in that report either to suggest that any wrongdoing could be attributed to Labour and there is nothing in that report that suggests the extent of issues still being investigated. It looks to me like a matter which, after proper scrutiny, will be quickly forgotten. Some of the allegations already have been. That IS in the report.

Sacco and Vanzetti's judge:

"He was heard to declare "They should get the chair
They're Reds and what more do you need?"

(Cheers to Andy Irvine)

Only real evidence, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 02:07 PM

The past form of BoJo is abysmal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 02:58 PM

From "A man for all seasons":

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 06:19 AM

Brexit: the gift that keeps on giving.

Best of the rest
1.UK growth tipped to slow as firms run down stockpiles
2.Divided, pessimistic, angry: survey reveals bleak mood of pre-Brexit UK
3.UK businesses urged to step up preparations for no-deal Brexit
4.Varadkar: removing Irish backstop would be as bad as no-deal Brexit
5.No deal is “extremely serious” for Northern Ireland, warns Tory MP
6.Brexit “shambles” has ruined UK’s reputation, says senior diplomat
7.Food Standards Agency struggling to prepare for Brexit, say auditors
8.Third of Britons say they avoid news out of Brexit frustration
UK jobs growth slows amid Brexit uncertainty
9. UK job growth slows amid Brexit uncertainty

Scroll to the bottom of this for a link.
Link

Any good news about Brexit?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 06:43 AM

The official Tory policy is leave and to honour the referendum result.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 06:56 AM

Sp perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues.

Any coherent, cohesive and consistent Conservative Brexit policy yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:16 AM

But, but, but...Raggy, ‘weer taking are cuntry back’! Dahn’t you no nuffink?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:46 AM

"The official Tory policy is leave and to honour the referendum result."

The official Labour policy is to leave and honour the referendum result.

Some of us in the party disagree with that, as we know that the referendum was a constitutional disgrace informed by campaigns of lies, therefore not worthy of honouring. We also know that the government can't be constitutionally bound by the result as the referendum was advisory only, in spite of Cameron's fatuous promises about it. We also know that the promised trade deals have not materialised and that brexit will certainly transform this country into a basket case. There's a dictator for life who doesn't need us running the most powerful and biggest economy on earth and an unstable lunatic in the White House, and we're about to be confronted by a resentful and uncooperative EU to boot once we leave. Very little else is going matter post-brexit. Well, we can always do a deal with Switzerland to remove tariffs on imported cuckoo clocks and army knives. So some of us want the one and only thing that is remotely in this country's interests, and that is to have the decision reversed. I'm coming round to the opinion that the only way to do that is to have a public vote in light of the new information we have that we didn't have in 2016, much as I'm appalled by the very idea of referendums in the first place. Whatever happens, or doesn't happen, in the next six months will be divisive and cause much trouble. No one route through this mess would be more or less divisive than any other. We can blame Cameron for that, a man of no vision whatsoever. And one of yours, not one of ours.

The politicians in parliament have been blamed for the impasse. But that isn't fair, as they are simply doing their job. You can't hand over a big decision to an ignorant public then blame MPs for failing to agree on what to do next to clear up the resulting bloody mess. The decision should have been in their hands all along. Of course, that would have meant staying in the EU. Which is why you prefer the idea of a rabble-rousing referendum, sidestepping and utterly subverting our parliamentary democracy. The democratic deficit in all this is entirely down to your lot and has nothing to do with remainers wanting a rethink. After all, your referendum was merely a rethink of the 1975 one, the overwhelming result of which YOU have never accepted. Just a little reminder once again that this brexit is one hundred percent a Tory brexit, cooked up by you and yours. Constantly bleating about Labour's brexit policy is, frankly, risible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:47 AM

going to matter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 12:54 PM

The fact that it was the pig sticker frightened of the man toad that caused all this seems to escape our resident right whingers (yes I did spell it right) so they are happy to blame Corbyn who had nowt to do with it. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 01:34 PM

And some of us not in either party disagree with that, and don't accept it. Brexit is a far right coup, foisted on the population by a criminal political class using the profound ignorance of much of the electorate. It has turmed Britain into a failed state, not far above Zimbabwe. In fact, below Zimbabwe now Mugabe has gone. A country of which I used to be proud, and of which I am now profoundly ashamed. I have to keep apologising to my European colleagues for the shambles that Britain has become. And even today, Barclay, bleating to Barnier that its not fair, that the EU position which they have held all along, turns out to be the EU position as they have said. Its come to a pretty pass, hasn't it, when Rory Stewart is the nearest to a sane voice that we have in the contest to be the next PM. And apparantly, being forced to deny, that he is still a remainer! Being forced to deny that he still has working brain cells. Not many, but more that all of the other contenders put together.

At least Raab has gone. As with Mike Pence on the other thread, probably more dangerous than Johnson because he actually believes all of the shit he is spouting.

Now get rid of Hunt. He is Raab plus warmongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 02:45 PM

I posted at 06.56:

"So perhaps you could tell us if we are going to leave on the 31st October, before that date, after that date, with a deal, without a deal. What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU, What are we going to do with European citizens residing in the UK, what will our relationship with Europe regarding Security be, what are we going to do regarding fishing, farming, banking, insurance and a multitude of other issues."

Do you have an answer for us Iains ..............

Typical of your approach, I don't know what Brexit will bring but I will vote for it. Three years later I been told it won't be good but I'll still vote for it. I will also vote for a party leader who hasn't told me what he thinks of Brexit or what route the UK is going to take.

Universal franchise is wasted on some people.

(PS I know the leadership election is not covered by UF)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 03:20 PM

What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU.
None !

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 04:00 PM

The EU have described Brexit as a divorce. In most divorces both parties share the assets. The richer half does not fine the poorer. During our membership of the EU we have contributed positively towards the infrastructure. We should be refunded at least some of that contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 04:22 PM

Bloody hell - Nigs has got an apprentice!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 19 - 07:07 PM

"What reparations, if any, will we pay to the EU.
None !"

Well Iains, is that your policy or the Conservative Party policy, and if it is Conservative Party Policy when was it decided and by whom with what authority.

Is there any chance of you responding to the rest of my points about the complete lack of a coherent, cohesive and consistent policy by the Conservative Party which you are so keen to maintain that the Labour Party lacks.

I'm going to watch the cricket now on catch-up so you have until tomorrow to consider your reply!

PS At the moment the Conservative Party are in power, they created this debacle, it is their mess and it up to them to sort it out.

PPS If you, for one minute, think that Johnson can do it you really are living in cloud cuckoo land.