BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM

That is as 'indicated' a dictatorship as it gets

Serious, agreed, but there are stronger indications. The suggestion that if the houses both agree legislation the PM may not recommend royal assent is replacing a '1Megaton' constitutional breach - the Government may defy the law - with a '100Megaton' one - the PM has an effective veto on anything the houses agree. That would of course apply to all Prime Ministers and, for example, amendments to legislation the PM did not like.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM

I was listening to a law expert picking his way through the legal implications of these draconian measures - complicated to say the least, which leads us to hope that the final judgement is not in the hands of people with a Bragenda
I've all but given up on expecting fair play and common sense from Britain any more - The bizzare Johnson, Gove and Cummins Cirque du Soleil is just about the straw that sends UK democracy to destruction
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:44 AM

And there's something else. If all this implodes on Johnson he'll call an election which he will almost certainly win. Then he can do whatever he wants. I have a strong feeling that this is the plan. We are living in a world in which brainless populism holds all the cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:00 AM

They must have issued a different prayer book in Gotham!
The treacherous joker

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM

If all this implodes on Johnson he'll call an election which he will almost certainly win

Because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act, Johnson can only do this with Corbyn's support. Unfortunately Corbyn's remarks today suggest he will give it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:23 AM

The chaos in Westminster it almost palpable
Johnson is said to be holding a cabinet meeting (what will be left of them if he goes on the way he is doing) this afternoon on how to deal with Tory rebels (the utter contempt for democracy by calling those who oppose the Prime Minister "Rebels" is the stuff that feeds a dictatorship)
Despite the fact that there was a sectarian riot in Glasgow and three sectarian incidents in Belfast over the weekend, the Northern Ireland Secretary's visit has been cancelled, so the pretence of supporting the province seems to have ridden off into the sunset
Corbyn is supporting te idea of a general election, which is what all this seems to be about anyway
I don't know if Labour can win, but if they can't Britain can forget anything that resembles democracy for some time to come
No wonder Johnsong announced a massive spending on law and order and prisn's - he's going to need it
Never mid - Mike Pence is visiting Ireland this week - maybe he can nip over to London to give them some tips on 'Special Rendition' U.S. style - never know, might come in handy   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM

Several things. If Johnson gets an election, it's then in his gift to call it for after October 31. That will mean no-deal. Next, Labour is, in my view, is likely to lose an election, either before or after that date. I hear Tony Blair and I share his fears (I don't share much else with him).

The right thing to happen would be an extension to Article 50 until at least several months after an election, giving the new administration time to carry out its stated manifesto policy on brexit, which could mean trying to strike a deal (away from the current frenetic chaos), or to organise another referendum. That would best serve the interests of the country. This administration hasn't got the slightest interest in that, unfortunately, but they have all the best populist tunes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM

An interesting snippet on Constitutional Law/convention that impedes the renegade's plans to force legislation through:

Any Bill that has an impact on the Royal Prerogative requires 'Royal Consent' to even be discussed and debated. This has been withheld on numerious occasions and rightly so. Also any Bill that would lead to public expenditure requires, under standing orders, a money resolution which only the Government can move. The second issue is that of Royal Assent. This is the process by which any Bill becomes Law and is usually a formality.

All grist to the mill!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:04 AM

...Although it transpires that Johnson could make an assurance that any election would take place before October 31. I have a nasty feeling that that would not help Labour at all. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Blair's elephant-trap warning. Unfortunately, Jeremy has made himself a hostage to fortune by repeatedly calling for a general election. I think he'd better start to attach a whole load of conditions to his call.

In the meantime, UK industrial output is falling faster now than at any time in the last seven years...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:24 AM

You've gorra larf at all this or you'll end up as psychotic as y.n.w.
Wonderful cartoon in the bumwipe press over the weekend showing Johnson and Gove barricaded in number 10 with the queen tied to a chair and crowds outside the window - Johnson is screaming through a megaphone "We want free passage to No-Deal or the old lady gets it"

Even Murdoch's Muckrakers don't take this lot seriously
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM

As Elephant Traps go, this one is unusual in that it comes with flashing lights, huge arrows and klaxons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM

I'm fearing the worst. Though I do wonder what would happen if (a) all the Scottish Tories lost their seats, (b) a considerable number of Tory "rebels" stood as independents and won their seats, as some undoubtedly would, (c) there was significant LibDem resurgence, which I'd also expect. One thing I'm not particularly scared of is Farage and his bunch of eejits. They'll get votes but not seats, and they'll take votes off both big parties.

We'd need a progressive coalition that takes seriously the prospect of brexit not happening at all. Complicated for Labour, but these are times of crisis...

Or am I clutching at straws...

Or am I beginning to sound like Polly Toynbee...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

while many of us are furious at the suggestion that our children should work until 75 , am i right in thinking that jeremy corbyn is about 70....so would be a prime minister at75 if he won an election shortly. sorry, just too old - show a bit of solidarity jez. you've done a great job and i will always support our manifesto- but need to stand down in the national interest. i note it's keir starmer's birthday (57) today - many happy returns.

i don't feel good about this, or the fact that we are almost relying on the emergence of tories with a bit of a conscience and intelligence. but it's hard times in old england

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

I would quite like Starmer, but I read today that the Corbynista (whoever they are) see Rebbecca Long-Bailey as the natural successor. Not for me, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM

I was just asked a question by my wife that I really don't know the answer to - not for the first time, of course.

If an election were called, would there by any significant change in NI parties?

I suspect each individual's vote is sufficiently tied up with other matters that it would not, but that really is guesswork. But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

One interesting feature should an election be called is that nobody knows where the Labour Party stands on Brexit.

They voted to leave in the referendum
They voted to leave when voting for article 50
They voted to leave in the 2017 General Election
Labour has been bleating consistantly for an election.
Now when they have the opportunity they back off. Is this because their revolving manifesto has a few fatal flaws?
Nothing to do with the idiot McDonnell wanting to sell people's second homes at discounted rates of course.(in Flagrant breach of human rights legislation) He would be torn a new one in the courts before the ink was dry on the paper. But this is the same joker hellbent on nationalising everything. Again in opposition to existing EU legislation.
I wonder what other vote winning wheezes he has up his sleeve prior to an election. A party led by a geriatric and a raging lunatic designing policy soundbites to lose an election. Boris's opposition dream team I would say.

The news just keeps getting better and better, now we have a PM with a pair! What an exciting week! Are we finally taking our country (Constitution) back from Brussels?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:41 PM

"But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant."
Position in the Northern counties is obscured by the fact that Governance there has been for over two years
The DUP is in decline and the party riven with scandals
Corbyn's age is of no relevance if he is capable of leading and if the party is run on the lines that he can me democratically replaced when he becomes unfit for the job
It's about time parties were chosen on the basis of their policies and not on the charisma (or otherwise) of who leads them
I'd long ceased voting for any of the bastards when Corbyn came along - our young war criminal Blair did it for me
If the coup is going to be defeated, it will only be by a combination of efforts by the sensible and democratic members of all parties anyway - I'd back Corbyn before any of the others as caretaker leader and certainly before a new kid on the block
Corbyn has had the support of young Labour up to now - pretty well unprecedented for any party - but they have proved they are keeping an eye on how he lives up to their trust - you don't get healthier politics than that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:57 PM

Strange - I thought I heard the rumble of tanks and keep getting flashes of KEEP AMERICA GREAT - imagination, I hope
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

No election, desptie the afct that Johnson has just made an election speech telling the world how his is going to fight crime and pour money into education
He is going to "persuade our friend in the EU to change their minds about the backstop and get them to agree to sell out their members
A moron who agrees with hs policies say that the Government must be allowed to govern, ignoring the fact that Johnson is proposing to close down parliament so it can't
Just like the barbers cat - all wind and piss - nothing has changed
Johnson's speech was accompanied by mass chanting from the thousands in Whitehall ("rentamob" as the Johnsons of British politics regard them)
Didn't notice the raised-arm salute, but I'm sure that they're being perfected
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:43 PM

The rumour is that he will call for an election if the vote goes against him. But as we have remarked, that needs Labour to vote for it. It would have a strange irony if his attempts to have an election were blocked by his proroguement of Parliament.

And yes, I know he said he didn't want an election and the electorate didn't either. If that is not a preparation to say he was forced into it by the antidemocratic people in Parliament I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

An interesting speech off Boris. Superficially very wishy washy. Seems to have had the desired outcome of fooling people.

Sun Tzu in three dimensional chess, choreographed by Boris, Moggie and 007Dominic Cummings with a side order of Baldrick.

Should be entertaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:25 PM

"If his attempts to have an election were blocked by his proroguement of Parliament."
Surely he is now up his own hole over this one ?
If the vote goes against him he has threatened to withdraw the whip from and prevent from standing in future elections, all who voted against him
Each constituency where this has happened will have to hold elections to select their new MPs - unless all MPs in future are going to ce chosen by the Prime Minister
I'd love to be a fly on those walls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:26 PM

Perhaps Boris considers (if he is capable of such) that he cannot rely on his, and Cummings, bullying to bring his own party into line.

Interesting times indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:34 PM

"that he cannot rely on his, and Cummings, bullying to bring his own party into line."
What do you think the 'law and order' and new prisons are all about ?
One of the issues raised by Yellowhammer was the likelihood of civil disorder
Of course - it might all be a coincidence - and my jack's a kipper
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:39 PM

The people can go hang for all Johnson, Cummings and their ilk are concerned. Members of their own party are slightly more difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

I'm beginning to come around to the idea that the best thing that could happen now that if one of the parties organised a large demonstration in London (there are some planned), marched them up Whitehall and around Parliament and just asked them to sit down, that might clear a few blocked drains
Non-violent and not necessarily long term - just enough to stop a few lines of traffic
Worled wonders in the U'S. with the Civil Rights and scrainly set the shit flying at the fan with CND
I have always had pictures of those supporting the miners walking through the West End
I'd die with a broad grin to see that happen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:06 PM

They care not a fig about anyone, just as long as their immensely-wealthy pay-masters are able to continue their tax-dodging unhindered. That is all Brexit has ever been about. All the stuff about Sovereignty, unelected bureaucrats, immigrants, £350 million for the NHS, Take Back Control, et al was the horse-puckey they used to play on the fears of ordinary people in order to get their way and persuade them to vote Leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

"the NHS"
I woud guess that, considering the pile of shit that now passes for a Government in Britain, Trump's offer to buy this potential gold mine is being considered at this very moment
Guarding against Civil Disorder doesn't some for free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:52 PM

Jim,
You've made this comment three times now:
If the vote goes against him he has threatened to withdraw the whip from and prevent from standing in future elections, all who voted against him

Boris has not said he will prevent them from standing for parliament. He will prevent them from standing for parliament as Conservative candidates. There is a big difference, as implied in Steve Shaw's comment:
I'm fearing the worst. Though I do wonder what would happen if (a) all the Scottish Tories lost their seats, (b) a considerable number of Tory "rebels" stood as independents and won their seats, as some undoubtedly would,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:17 PM

I think everyone understood what Jim meant, Nigel. Not everyone needs everything spelling out.

Found any good forecasts about brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:27 PM

But I'm so glad that you found ME to be accurate, Nige. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:32 PM

The best forecast for brexit so far is the end of October, assuming the people's sovereignty is nor usurped by renegades yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:13 PM

Interesting my earlier post was deleted. Yet the insult it was addressing From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM is allowed to remain.

More political moderation on mudcat?

Of course it does not alter the fact that the shouty minority on here lost the referendum.

All insults from the left remain, structured rebuttals from the right are deleted. why is that I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:44 PM

From Terry Chritian - Journalist, presenter and Professional Mancunian!

Lets say we brexit on 31 st
October. Can any leave voters tell
what problems in their lives will
now be solved ? How will having
left the EU improve life for you and
your family ? What is the 1 st thing
you're hoping our govt does that
the EU were preventing it from
doing ?

Anyone care to answer that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:01 AM

Newsnight last night was interesting. While no one was quite counting chickens, the working assumption was that legislation would be passed today obliging the Government to bring back a deal or ask for another extension. Two Labour speakers said it would not support a "no-confidence" motion if Johnson brings one forward. I sincerely hope they are right. The panel of pundits all agreed that that would put the Government in an exceptionally difficult position and unless Cummings really is a genius and has some plan they couldn't see, the Government is snookered. It would actually have to do what it has been blustering away about and come up with a deal or go past 31 October.

It is looking like those famous clocks that Mr Johnson had ticking down to Brexit day may have been set wrongly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM

"He will prevent them from standing for parliament as Conservative candidates"
He has overstepped his authority to create a Conservative Party in his own image - isn't that what Stalin did. or doesn't it matter to you as a conservative ?
Once a national leader is allowed to get away with that, a Government becomes a monolithing dictatorship with everything that goes with it.
That is what you and yours have accused Corbyn of doing - yet he had made a point of taking the membership with him
Corbyn is a popular (of the (Labour) people) leader) - yours is one who has been appointed by the top echelons of your party and who is now culling those who oppose him and threatening to do the same throughout your whole party
If that doesn't bother you than you'd better get word perfect in singing from your fuehrer's hymn sheet - but please don't try and impose your nodding-dogism on the rest of the country
Johnson is a mindless clown who is happy to act as a poodle to the world's most dangerous mindless degenerate leader
How dare you people allow him to ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:56 AM

Just reading about a potential flame that has been started in Northern Ireland that I freely admit had not crossed my mind. It seems the 'Get Ready' site explains that all UK registered cars in EU countries will have to have a GB sticker.

It does not need more than a few moments thought to realise how inflammatory that could be for Republican supporters in Northern Ireland. The genius of the Good Friday Agreement lies in the way differences between the two sides are de-emphasised wherever possible. And then we introduce a bureaucratic rule which requires people to identify as the group they are not - not everyone can afford to change their car to buy one registered elsewhere, or adds another means for the Loyalists to proclaim they are wedded to the mainland.   And if people do buy cars registered elsewhere so they do not need the GB sticker, it becomes an even more potent symbol.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:43 AM

I watched that Newsnight too. Intriguing. If the opposition legislation succeeds, Johnson will undoubtedly want a snap election which he will use to declare that he's the only leader who wants to carry out his Brexit promise, "will of the people" and all that guff. It would be a lie, because he'd no longer be able to carry it out, but he'd have to keep the Brexit party at bay. Whilst I'm far from convinced that he'll get an overall majority, I think it would be too risky for Labour to give him the election. Corbyn would have to frame the refusal in such a way as to say that I'll give you an election once Brexit is resolved. Corbyn might look foolish for refusing an election (or postponing his consent) he's been calling for for a long time, but Johnson will also look foolish when he fails to get Brexit through by 31 October - and he'd have Farage snapping at his heels. Snooker him, Jeremy. Europe has long had the benign effect of bringing Tory leaders crashing down. Long may the tradition continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:47 AM

"all UK registered cars in EU countries will have to have a GB sticker."

This legal requirement has been in place for decades and has never been rescinded.
So your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 04:58 AM

For information only, not a debating point: if your registration plate has that little EU circle of stars with your country's identifier, you don't need a GB sticker at all. You will after a no-deal brexit. DMcG's point is very valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

Justine Greening has jumped ship. Stand as an independent in Putney, Justine. Let's see a good number of "moderate" Tories doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM

For information
We have lived in Ireland for twenty years and have been visiting here regularly since the beginning of the 1970s
We have never at any time needed either EU or GB plates - it is certainly not a "legal requirement" (though English number plates were once very handy at one time if you wanted to avoid being breathalysed)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

Thanks, both. I did not see the GB sticker issue immediately, as I said. I became aware of it through articles like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

Just when did the people of the UK gain the sovereignty that is being bandied about.

I was always of the impression that sovereignty lay with parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

"We have never at any time needed either EU or GB plates - it is certainly not a "legal requirement" (though English number plates were once very handy at one time if you wanted to avoid being breathalysed")

The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland

Just like the requirement to change a uk license to an Irish one within 100 days of taking up domicile it has not been enforced.

If you checked your facts there would be far less strife on this forum.
Your bombastic lies do nothing to carry a discussion forward.

RAC website
If you're driving in Ireland, your checklist requirements are:

    A valid UK driving licence.
    A GB sticker on the back of your car – unless your car has 'Euro-plates' (number-plates that show a circle of 12 stars on a blue background).
    Your motor insurance certificate.

The black country letters on a circular white back ground (a European custom) became an international requirement in many countries after the U.N.’s Geneva Convention on Road Traffic (1949) and Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (1968). It was agreed upon that a distinguishing sign of the country of registration had to be displayed on the rear of the vehicle. It also stipulated that the sign could either be placed separately from the registration plate or could be incorporated into the vehicle’s number plate and if the international registration letter was incorporated into the licence plate, it also had to appear on the front number plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:50 AM

Our sovereignty arises from the fact that we get to elect our MPs every few years. There's no "sovereignty of the people" arising from advisory referendums. If it's advisory, sovereignty remains in the hands of parliament. If I get cirrhosis and my doctor advises me to give up boozing, no matter how strong and how peppered the advice is with dire threats about refusals to give me a liver transplant, etc, my subsequent decision to nip to Sainsbury's to stock up on 25% off six is entirely legal and entirely mine. I retain sovereignty. There's no sovereignty of the doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:54 AM

Make sure you have your fold-up warning triangle and headlight deflectors. Oh, and you need spare specs in Spain. Enjoy your trip and don't forget to drive on the right. My very first experience of the latter was when I drove off the ferry at Santander, to be immediately confronted with a huge and complex roundabout. The Spanish drivers were very forgiving that time...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

"The LEGAL requirement to display GB stickers has always been the case driving in Ireland"
No it hasn't - stop being arrogantly stupid
I live here - you lurk in the shadows and refuse to reveal even your identity, never ming where you will

For christs sake, will somebody stop this wrecker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:56 AM

Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:00 AM

Enjoy your trip and don't forget to drive on the right.

I had the opposite experience. Shortly after passing my test in the UK I went to the States and drove *a lot*. Came home, took my son to a piano lesson, then merrily turned onto the right to see a nice friendly bus approaching me ...