BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

From the font of truth and accurate reporting!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/11/uk-grows-1-3-2018/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Hardly a recipe for growth!


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/18/why-are-global-markets-falling-and-are-we-heading-for-recession

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Well in theory the 4th quarter GDP results are due today. Then we can see how far up the garden path Carney has taken us with his growth? estimates.
It is worth pointing out that Germany is expected to avoid an official recession by the skin of its teeth(results 14/02)
You need the big picture in order to draw meaningful conclusions,and in much of the world the favourite pencil out of the box is red.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

UK economic growth slowest since 2012

We were asked earlier to wait for these figures before saying the growth was poor. We have done so.

"Ben Brettell, senior economist, at Hargreaves Lansdown said "There's little doubt Brexit uncertainty is responsible for the disappointing figures, though concerns over global trade will have also played a part."

Come now, you under-estimate the world class doubters you are delaying with. They are experts at doubting such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:58 AM


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.

True. But it would be irrational to then only eat salt...


Economists predictions are one factor among many to take into account. That the evidence says they are bad at predicting recessions does not means they should be disregarded in general. Babies and bathwater, as the saying has it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

I find it useful to put such quotes in context. From the same Guardian article we have the gem:
Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions.

A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.
Forecasting is more an art than a science. Why else did all the referendum forecasts become so unglued?
Statistically to be fed up with, and ignore experts, keeps a person in closer touch with reality.
I wonder how true this would be for the religion of climate change?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

If tariffs drop the only people who will benefit will be the ones current!y making profits. The importer will benefjt, the wholesaler, the retailer but when we get down to the consumer you can get that the price will remain the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

Corbyn has become a figure of hate and fear for the establishment
If he wasn't he'd be ignored - now he is being targetted by extremist foreign government who have attempted to infiltrate British politics in order to smear him and halt his growing influence - cant wait till Trump tries to build another wall to keep him out
He must be doing something right (or do I mean 'left'?)
   
Nigel
"I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution."
Just as you have forgotten to respond to answers to your questions
You asked, I answered - the rest is silence......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:28 AM

By "almost everyone else" I of course meant "almost every other economist." I am sure a lot of people who are not economists think it as well, but it was the former I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM


As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not explored that here because it requires quite elaborate and disputed economics. The ERG's favourite economist, Professor Minton, advocates getting rid of tariffs entirely, and is quite content that theis would lead to the demise of UK farming etc. Which, since it limits our options, is actually quite bad in terms of sovereignty as we would be limited to picking between whatever deals others would be prepared to offer. Almost everyone else thinks letting our local farming collapse is a really bad idea. Some people argue that lowering tariffs leaves more money in people's pockets, which is a good thing. But if they can only spend it on foreign goods that is a net flow of resources out of the country, which is not a good thing at all.

I may be the only person in world who thinks this, but it seems credible to me that if we want to reduce climate change we need to encourage people to buy locally and that tariffs on imports will eventually be one of the tools we use to help manage this.

So: I regard reduction of tariffs not as a 'good' but as 'uncertain benefit'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:55 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Good night.
I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution.

If the best you can do is use insulting names, and avoid discussing the matter in hand, clearly you have learnt from your pupils, rather than the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM
Nitpicking once again Nigel.
Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.
I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

Requiring accuracy in the intentions of posters is not 'nitpicking', but if that is the best you can do to answer criticism of previous comments I will accept that you cannot add to the discussion.

As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU (to protect their own providers) but you have obviously either not read those comments, or chosen to ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:42 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.

Yes, but if your comments were allowed to ride we would be accepting that "almost no-one wants no-deal". If you wish to clarify the comment, then do so.
I may be alone in expecting people to be clear in their meanings.
If, as an ex-teacher, you are unable to accurately formulate your comments, that is your problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

Oh, and into the valley of death ride the...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

I think the Tories are frightened of him

Why 15-page Jeremy Corbyn 'hatchet job' shows Tories are taking him seriously

He must be doing something right.

But if course all of this is just to take the heat of the complete cock up they have made over brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

I THINK CORBYN WOULD BE A GOOD PRIME MINISTER

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Cheers, DMcG. As we used to say oop north, you'll never see what I'll buy you!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM

cross-posted there, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM


The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal.

For the record, as that sentence was explicitly directed to me, it is worth noting I read it in the sense I believe it was intended - that the 'almost no-one' related to the people in Parliament already referenced in the sentence. That the content of the universal can be interpreted in different ways is beside the point, common to almost every sentence in English using universals and, yes, nit-picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:02 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

I do like the way remainiacs like to ignore an adherence to facts by dismissing it as nitpicking. This same wilful disregard for reality is of course the reason Labour, when in power, always makes such a shambles of the economy. However we are quite safe. Under the realm of Corbyn labour can only wilt.No one, but no one, would trust him as PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM

Nitpicking once again Nigel.

Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.

I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

I would have hoped that after over two and a half years you may have been able to come up with some things to make me think that Brexit may have some beneficial outcomes for the UK.

Sadly I'm still awaiting such .............

Over to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

Steve: "We're told that almost no-one wants no-deal"

That's the problem. Some people just believe what they are told.
When Cameron suggested a referendum I'm sure he was told Remain would win it. People on this site seemed to think it was a forgone conclusion. The reality was something different.

If you were to say that "very few MPs want no-deal" then you may well be correct. But the majority of MPs (apparently) favoured Remain anyway, so that would not stretch credibility.
What the people of the country want in the current situation has yet to be tested, but the latest referendum is still the 2016 one, and a majority (of those who voted) voted to leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The simplest way to keep it off the referendum is to recognise that Parliament has already voted a week or two against a no deal. But I share your cynicism, Steve: it could be voted against as you suggest because of that fear, or amended to add a no deal because of that selfsame fear. Or call it self interest if you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

It is the will of the people elects them. They either pay attention, or find alternative employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies facing a backlash in the next election for failing to cowtow to "the will of the people." Pardon me for being cynical.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Best kept off this thread, though.
Yes indeed,otherwise the educational failings of remainiacs might rise to the fore!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Now that is a topic and a half! Best kept off this thread, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

As a recent survey showed that many people thought that no deal meant remain, having both no deal and remain as a choice would just confuse them.

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

It is an interesting idea. I doubt, though, that a referendum without a 'no-deal' option would be approved by Parliament. The Brexiteers would demand it, and few politicians will be prepared to sign up for something the Mail & co will present as 'defying the will of the people', however dubious such an assertion might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Interesting new idea afoot according to the Guardian website. Parliament could be asked to accept May's deal on condition that there would then be a referendum with a simple choice, May's deal or remain. I can see that gaining ground. Not keen meself. I don't like referendums and I think I that May's deal is a terrible idea. The temptation could be that it's likely to be the only way to break the deadlock, and there would be no objection from the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

St Jeremy of the allotment is having his wings singed in the press today.Even the Guardian/Observer has this to say:
Corbyn’s leadership is under withering fire. He is attacked, again, for a perceived failure to effectively combat antisemitism within the party, in the case of Wavertree MP Luciana Berger. His support for Venezuela’s discredited socialist experiment has drawn more fire. He faces threats from a number of MPs to quit the party altogether. And on Brexit, to date, he has been, at best, ambivalent about following stated conference policy and, at worst, duplicitous.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686593/Jeremy-Corbyns-40-years-plots-lies-intimidation-chaos.html
Jeremy Corbyn's 40 years of plots, lies, intimidation and chaos: Chilling biography tells how Labour leader followed Lenin and Trotsky's bloody footprint - seize power, purge moderates, crush dissent and leave the dirty work to others

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/09/no-wonder-feminists-have-had-enough-jeremy-corbyn-fellow-brocialists/

Seems a concerted effort to highlight the chappie's failings. It rather destroys the credibility of the doyen? of the left. Perhaps the movers and shakers are fed up with his endless posturing, especially with a potential split in the offing. I wonder if those responsible have been learning from the Democrats mistakes? Their engineered takedown is turning into a fiasco.
Interesting times!.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:36 PM

I suppose it is only right that a folk music site should encompass the noble art of pin dancing, as exemplified above.
Meanwhile tic toc!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

Even Pizza delivery has on costs!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:09 PM

"'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'."
Puts him first in line as next leader of the Tory Party I would think
Can't think of anybody more qualified - can anybody ?
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:00 PM


I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.

In normal circumstance I would agree, Raggy. Any competent business drawing up such a contract would include all sorts of penalty clauses to do with cancellation.

However, this company was the one using pizza delivery t&c's, so it is believable they *were* that incompetent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:52 AM

"I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place."

Apologies - I omitted 'incompetent' from the above in error. Should say, "I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving, incompetent twunts in the first place".

Grayling must qualify for the title 'Most Incompetent Minister In Parliamentary History'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

I am surprised that anyone can believe a contract has been awarded and then cancelled with absolutely no costs involved.

Does that mean that everyone who worked on the contract tendering process did so without pay, that all the office space and on costs were free .......... together with all the other associated costs.






Mind you some people seem to believe in Unicorns too!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM

LAID OUT SO FAR TO MAKE UP FOR BREXIT LOSSES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:58 AM

Whether taxpayers money is involved depends on who you believe, who you count as a taxpayer and how you apportion costs. Here is a different viewpoint:


Keeping the site open is costing local taxpayers £7,224 a day, according to a local source, and the council – which has already spent months in fruitless negotiations with Seaborne – had proposed shutting it down to help balance the books.

The DfT persuaded the council to keep it open, claiming that talks with Seaborne were at an “advanced stage”, according to Paul Messenger, a local Conservative councillor.

He said the port was costing about £2m a year: “That’s why we haven’t got any road sweepers, that’s why we haven’t got any public lavatories.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

Awkward things facts!


Ferry firm will get no moneuy upfront

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money

Typical unfocused un-researched kneejerk reaction.

No tax payers money was involved has been very clearly stated by all sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:07 AM

Not to say extremely irresponsibly stupid with the taxpayers money
What moron hands out a massive amounbt of cash to a shipping line with no ships and no lace to land them if they had them ?
Sums up the standards of our politicians perfectly in my opinion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

I condemn them for being such a bunch of greedy, self-serving twunts in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:20 AM

I see Grayling has cancelled the ferry contract awarded to the firm with no boats. That seems like sound policy to me. I applaud them for seeing sense on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

I think it more likely money has come out of some government fund that is not directly related to current taxpayers, but is of course (after sufficient back and forth between accounts and departments and relabelling) still ultimately from either the current taxpayers or, via debt, from future taxpayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:08 AM

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...
Jolly good distraction techniques to divert attention from labour. They have many problems.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/luciana-berger-labour-members-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 03:59 AM

Maybe the Tory party paid for it, DMcG. After all, the contract lined the pockets of some of them...