BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:52 PM

yawm!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:23 PM

Jim

I will just say once again that it was YOU who predicted that Brexit would lead to a return to "sectarian violence". You, yourself, personally.

Can't be bothered to respond to your twistings of what I posted and what I think.

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:46 PM

You're calling me a 'Little Englander'?

WHAT that is THAT about? It's all in your head, Jim.

"Pretty sensible line to draw given the Irish tendency to murder each other". I'm standing by that: I think that this is precisely why the line was drawn where it was: because otherwise there would have been more bloodshed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

Maybe, rather than spouting about DUP 'bigots' (are there no Catholic bigots?) and using the pejorative word 'Prods', Jim should think about some of the initiatives shown here, which also shows the depths of the problems:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47373925

The bit that caught my attention was 'children as young as two already exhibit signs of sectarian bigotry'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM

Backwoodsman, may I say that I prefer your postings without fecal expletives. I managed to read the first five or six paragraphs of your posting before giving up. It will hit the spot for remainers but for this leaver it is just a squashed toothpaste tube of irrelevant diatribe.

We are not leaving Europe. We are leaving the European Union. The European Union is a political construct that follows the pattern of the failed Roman Empire and the failed Catholic church. It is a hierarchical power structure that focuses power out of the hands of the demos into the hands of an elite. Long and soon may it fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:00 PM

The European Union is a trading bloc first and foremost. It sets standards for trade as high as anywhere in the world. You can't have a trading bloc of 28 fiercely independent nations without politics. But nearly everything agreed by those countries is agreed by consensus. Any nation or commission who gets above itself is at the mercy of a very powerful veto structure. There is no European army because it has been vetoed by the UK. There is no ever-closer union because the UK doesn't want it. If you think that leaving is taking back control, come back in a couple of years' time, Stanron, and tell me how we've stopped the US from taking control of our trading standards. Do remember to tell us how to get the chlorine out of your Sunday roast. Remember to tell us how those hormones in your beef are helping to make your mouth water, and tell us triumphantly how you've taken back control of our food quality. The trouble is, Stanron, that every time you come on here posting about brexit you bring nothing apart from brainless received wisdom. You've never actually looked into anything first, never. I can only assume that you acquire your unthinking opinions from those braying Question Time audiences. It's a real shame, old chap. But you're not untypical, unfortunately for the well-being of this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:34 PM

The European Union is not a trading bloc first and foremost. We had that with the EEC. Various treaties since then changed the Economic Community to a Political Community. If you don't have the intellectual chops to actually understand what has gone on since then you shouldn't post your misunderstandings here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 07:56 PM

What absolute nonsense. Approximately half our trade, imports and exports, is with the EU. About one percent of our GDP is tied up with the EU and almost half of that is tied up with agriculture (and agriculture comprises around 0.75% of our GDP). Hardly any of our domestic laws that are not connected with EU trade and agriculture have anything to do with the EU. The EU has no say over our domestic legal system, our currency, our taxation policy or anything else to do with the way we decide to run the place. We have to abide by high standards of democracy, human rights and food safety. Any objection to that, Stanron, or would you rather have us dictated to by a country with far lower standards who don't need us though we need them? You can't win here, Stan, unless you turn yourself into a Boris. Thing is, some of us, unlike you, have bothered to look things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:08 PM

Approximately half our trade is with an economy which is failing into recession. You think we should devote ourselves to support that?. I think we should align ourselves with a secure future outside of the EU. You talk about our being dictated to by the US. We are now dictated to by the EU. You cannot provide any evidence that EU authority is better for the UK than proposals by the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 08:23 PM

No, but we can read the bloody papers. Anyone for enforced chlorine chicken and hormonal beef, which we will have to take whether we like it or not because we've decided to take back control? Thing is, Stanron, I've given you some particular issues but all you can do is flail about with predigested generalities. Do try to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 02:32 AM

Of the approx. 34,000 laws on the UK 's statute book, only around 4,500 have been influenced by the EU. Of those approx. 4,500 laws, only 72 were 'forced on us' - i.e. we were out-voted and had to accept the decision of the majority. 72 laws out of a total of 34,000. Hardly a case of being 'controlled by' the EU, is it?

And regarding 'Elites', who do you think has driven the BrexShit campaign for the purposes of their own financial gain? Why it's the UK 's own Elite of course - shady, immensely wealthy characters in the shadows, acting for no other purpose than their own, huge financial interests, pushing the buttons of the bigots, the xenophobes, the Union-Jack-boxers-brigade, the easily-led, and the feeble-minded, in order to get their way. You think you're 'Taking Back Control', but you've been bamboozled by the UK's own Elite into giving them complete control, and their purpose has nothing to do with your best interests. And, of course, the controls which the EU currently have in place to rein-in their excesses will no longer apply after BrexShit. As Al Jolson famously said, "You ain't see nothing yet!".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 03:10 AM

The weird thing, BWM, is that the people who are spouting the Brexit mantra are happy to believe the far right of the Tory party and UKIP, would like to to trade with Trump and countries far more totalitarian than the EU, yet try to tell us that Corbyn is too extreme and the EU is the big bogeyman. Do you see the pattern here? It is not entirely their own fault. The right wing media and puppet masters of the government are extremely powerful and have done their jobs well. It is up to us to try to destroy their grip on politics. Revolution no longer needs to use violence. Education released us from the thrall of the church. It will do the same with the new religion that has Murdoch as pope but it will take a while. The dinosaurs on here will die out and the young will shake their heads in disbelief.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

And with regard to Stanron's comment about my 'Fæcal expletives', it's my opinion that Brexit really is absolute shit, and everyone, including the Muppets who voted for it, will end up eating it. Therefore I reserve the right to continue to draw everyone's attention to that, and 'Brexshit' it will remain in anything and everything I post on the subject.

If anyone doesn't like it, I really don't give a rat's arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 09:57 AM

I am not wholly swayed by the idea Brexit is largely driven by the elite protecting their financial interests. However when bills are pulled apparently because of money laundering amendments it raises questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

Arrff, arrff, arrff...something to give us a smile as the BrexShit catastrophe continues to roll on and on.

Hilarious - or it would be if Grayling wasn't such an utter twunt, but apparently an 'Untouchable' as far as The Praying Mantis is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 12:56 PM

Dave and the backwoodsman seem to admit the ridiculous eventuality of what's coming and the super rich may welcome it OR NOT depending on the version of reality they will see.. So why not let them see what is coming with a 'virtual' or a 'soft opening' of Brexit RIGHT NOW
Never mind the Schwartzfield equation reasoning for this but its time to throw the fear of god at those who reside in the black hole of untold wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

Backwoodsman, If May chooses to hand back her library ticket that is her choice. I choose not to give mine back.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 01:30 PM

OK Donuel, if we have a trial 'Brexit' then let that include consular officiels at every point of entry in the EU (at no cost to the tax payer) to intervene in case a fascist border-official tries to prevent freedom of movement for UK nationals. Lets have a commitment whereby every time a UK national is denied a single benefit of EU membership, that this is automatically escalated into a full diplomatic incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:03 AM

More gloomy reports about a no deal Brexit this time from BMW who suggest that jobs would be at risk in their Cowley plant if no deal is reached over Brexit. This is on top of a similar warning from Toyota.

Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/05/bmw-mini-cowley-no-deal-brexit-toyota

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

Interesting discussion of the future validity of driving licenses held by British citizens domiciled here

"Has anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit?"
APPARENTLY NOT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:09 AM

If police outside of UK try to fine motorists for not having an IDP, just need to say that they must send the penalty notice for the personal attention of May, and UK tax payers or the Conservative party, or Department of Transport employees will pay it. No further discussion required.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM

So I wonder how the brexiteers will spin the loss of a British icon such as the mini? Thats taking out country back, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:12 PM

THEY'LL PROBABLY MINIMISE IT'S IMPORTANCE
jIM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:56 PM

Yebbut, yebbut, yebbut..."Weer taking are cuntry back".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM

Yeah. Back to the stone age.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

Precisely, Bonnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:27 AM

A piece in today's Guardian entitled "Food fight: doubts grow over post-Brexit standards" not only highlights in some detail the poor agricultural practices in the US which are bound to cause conflict in negotiations for any trade deal but also must have us doubting whether we can reach any sort of deal with the US at all (even Toryboy George Eustice has those doubts). If you think it's just about the talismanic chlorinated chicken spat, read the piece. That particular example of fowl play is just the tip of the iceberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

The FDA allows up to 4% of a can of cherries to have maggots, 5% if they are brined or Maraschino. Up to one maggot or five fly eggs per 250ml of canned fruit juice is also allowed under American food regulations.
Tomato juice is good, you can have up to five fly eggs and one maggot per 100g of tomato juice. Fifteen fly eggs and one maggot per 100g is allowed for tomato paste and other pizza sauces. Mushrooms are really sexy, mushrooms you can have twenty maggots of any size per 100g of drained mushrooms or per 15g of dried mushrooms. That's twenty maggots of any size.
It means thatAmericans at the moment are on average are likely to ingest between one and two pounds of flies, maggots and mites each year without knowing it.

"Now the FDA say that's safe and they're probably right and the future of protein consumption is probably going to involve more and more insects

The eggs, larvae, pupae, and adults of certain insects have been eaten by humans from prehistoric times to the present day. Around 3,000 ethnic groups practice entomophagy. Human insect-eating is common to cultures in most parts of the world, including Central and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia, and New Zealand. Eighty percent of the world's nations eat insects of 1,000 to 2,000 species. In some societies entomophagy is uncommon or taboo. Today, insect eating is uncommon in North America and Europe, but insects remain a popular food elsewhere, and some companies are trying to introduce insects as food into Western diets. FAO has registered some 1,900 edible insect species and estimates that there were, in 2005, some two billion insect consumers worldwide. They suggest eating insects as a possible solution to environmental degradation caused by livestock production.


Bush Tucker Man

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

What bothers me a bit about the chlorinated chicken spat is how it is all being presented about food safety. When the subject cropped up a while back a survey suggested that animal welfare was a big concern to UK consumers, not just food safety.

How convenient it is to forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:26 AM

Iains, thats a diversionary tactic, this isn't about eating insects, it is about bacteria, growth hormones and antibiotics. Yes I would be prepared to eat insects. But not ones produced to US food hygiene standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

I wonder what the yanks on here think about their chlorinated chicken, hormonal beef and the rest. I suppose not many of them bother clicking on brexit threads (which could indicate that they enjoy a higher level of sanity than we Brits).

I'm reminded of the graffiti I saw on a toilet cubicle wall when I was at Imperial College in 1969: "Eat shit. 150,000,000 flies can't be wrong."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

Try to ignore him, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

David Carter.I suspect in the US the agenda is driven by multinational
"food" companies whereas in the EU it is driven by faceless bureaucrats.
Difficult to determine which is the better for looking after the consumer. Superficially it would appear no contest. In detail perhaps a slightly different story emerges. Neither is on the side of angels.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:12 AM

Germany’s prestigious IFO Institut has crunched the numbers on the economic impact of no deal on 44 countries and predicted that Ireland would be hit three times harder than the UK by a no-deal Brexit, taking a massive 8.16% hit to their economy. Guido hears that Ireland has been the main EU27 country holding out against any reference to the UK’s basic Vienna Convention treaty rights over the backstop.

I stated this some months back and was laughed at.

It is not a situation for anyone to laugh over. Ireland's intransigence will create no winners, just losers.

https://order-order.com/2019/03/06/german-economists-no-deal-will-hit-ireland-three-times-harder-uk/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:21 PM

To my knowledge no one has ever suggested that Brexit would not have a detrimental effect on Ireland, in particular, and the EU in general.

IF perchance I am incorrect perhaps you could show us all the post(s) that said as much.

However I will not hold my breath as I know you will be unable to do so.

Idiot.

9 and counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:47 PM

Every time I linger on the topic of Brexit I think of that classic Goon Show moment (on the radio):

Narrator:
"Cheer up, dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet. . .

It's finished. . .


NOW!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 04:51 PM

And so it goes on.

Today Primark has informed 200 of it's staff they must move to Dublin or face redundancy.


Primark

Any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

From the Washington Post

Britain is one of the richest and most
advanced democracies in the world. It is
currently locked in a room, babbling away to
itself hysterically while threatening to blow
its own kneecaps off. This is what nationalist
populism does to a country.

Very astute :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

Laters poll from Northern counties show 76% opposed to British policy, 67% opposed to DUP handling of Bexit and 67% wish to remain in Europe
Britain is now relying on the support of a party that does not have its own people's support
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:51 AM

PM says if deal fails we may never leave EU

Sounds like the end game to me.

If she succeeds she will claim the credit for getting the best deal

If she fails she will claim others sabotaged it and it is their fault

Gawd, I hate politicians...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:17 AM

And that is precisely what I predicted when she became PM.

FINGERS CROSSED!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM

From the Guardian:

Ms Leadsom said she was still hopeful of a breakthrough, but added it would depend on the EU "coming to the table and taking seriously the [UK's proposals]".


====

Still not understanding that the EU has no other obligation than to defend its own interests, and that it is the EU not the UK that decides what the EU's interests are, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:17 AM

All part of the Deflection-Policy of the Tories, they do it on every issue - usually involving either inaccurate references to the last Labour government and the 2008 worldwide financial crash, or of the "Look over there - Corbyn anti-semitism/enemy of the people/friend of terrorists/allotment produce-show cheat" kind.

On this occasion they are trying to deflect the blame for their own incompetence and stupidity on to the EU's negotiating team. The BrexShiteer-Muppets might - or should that be will - fall for it, but those of us who aren't so stupid know where the blame truly lies, and it's not with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:19 AM

A Friend just sent me this from one of teh Irish papers
Telling us what we already knew, of course
Jim
Science has dim view of Brexiteers’ brains
Jonathan Leake
Science Editor
It is a belief that some pro- Europeans already hold dear but a group of scientists now claim to have confirmed it: Brexit voters are less bright than remainers.
Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and prone to accepting the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.
“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers, based at the University of Missouri.
Social scientists are increasingly interested in how personality affects voting. Authoritarian people, who favour conformity and obedience, make up about a third of the population. In America, they account for a higher proportion of voters for Donald Trump.
The research suggests that there may be similar divides in the UK. “Participants expressing an intent to vote to leave reported significantly higher levels of authoritarianism and conscientiousness... than those voting to remain,”
researchers said in a paper submitted to the Public Library of Science journal.
Nigel Farage, the MEP and former Ukip leader, said the research was “divisive and arrogant. Remain voters may have higher IQs but I’m not sure many could boil an egg or set up a business. They are well primed for the public sector and living off the taxpayer. The authoritarianism line is strange as leave voters want to be free while remain voters back an undemocratic authoritarian regime. What you can’t measure in IQ tests is patriotism which is a strong driver with leavers. Whether that’s rational or not is a separate question.”
Perhaps the key finding, however, is not about the brain power of leavers and remainers but the risk of using referendums to decide complex issues. Many voters, the scientists conclude, “lack the skills to critically evaluate information... raising a fundamental question as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner- takes-all, referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding complicated political issues.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:40 AM

Switzerland’s direct democracy system has worked very well since 1848.

We have people claiming to be well educated scientists posting on this forum. It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

The problem is not whether a direct democracy can work in a written constitution which describes how all the bits fit together - it can - or whether an evolved, indirect democracy like ours can work - it can - but how you get both approaches to fit together without any arbitration system to say which has priority when. And it is not good enough for either approach to declare 'we do'.

But in the light of crucial defining decisions being taken in the next few days, or being shirked, I would suggest a debate on the merits of direct or indirect democracy is perhaps not the main issue of importance.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:23 AM

"It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct."
Said the feller who insists on interminably infects this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM

"It does not automatically follow that their pronouncements are correct."
Said the feller who insists on interminably infects this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger"

My perception is that 'the feller who insists on interminably infecting this forum with the opinions of a masked criminal blogger' is the only one here gormless enough to fall for the masked criminal blogger's horse-shit. So, in that context, whatever gormless horse-shit he posts is completely irrelevant. Hence, most of the sane ones here ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:17 AM

Yes, well Iains, direct democracy might work here too if only we had Swiss people.