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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 09:48 AM
MikeL2 24 Jan 19 - 10:01 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jan 19 - 10:20 AM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 10:23 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM
KarenH 24 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 12:54 PM
DMcG 24 Jan 19 - 01:01 PM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 02:16 PM
Iains 24 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM
robomatic 24 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 19 - 03:02 PM
Raggytash 24 Jan 19 - 03:12 PM
Jos 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 19 - 03:59 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 19 - 04:26 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 06:15 PM
KarenH 24 Jan 19 - 06:36 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
The Sandman 24 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM
mayomick 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM
The Sandman 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM
Iains 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:48 AM

When you use a phrase like 'long running duplicity' Iains, its a sort of claim for moral high ground.

isn't this why Mo Mowlem succeded where the Thatcherites failed in NI?

Thatcher categorised her enemies as criminals. Mowlem tried to treat the separate parties at their own assessment of themselves - as men of honour.

I think until all sides grasp this basic tennet of diplomacy, the news is going to be kind of predictable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:01 AM

Hi Al

Beautifully put. " Anyway - I guess you smart guys have got it all sorted out. You all seem so certain that you are right.

I just wonder why there never seems any room in your minds for doubt. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:10 AM

Big Al the EU has used the Irish border as a means to bully the brexit negotiations from day one. The EU picked on the border because they knew that making an issue of it could possibly inflame old wounds.Calling their behaviour duplicitous is a very mild rebuke.It is nor moral high ground.It is a simple statement of fact. To choose the one single item that could cause dissent,and to belabour it constantly indicates to me the weakness of their position. Making the border a stumbling block will hurt the Republic far far harder than the UK, as many realists acknowledge. A shame the political class are not as clued up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:20 AM

If the EU wanted to bully the UK it could do so much more effectively. The EU has in fact shown amazing forbearance, given the self-entitled, intransigent, an at times demented behaviour of the UK government and the far right of the Conservative party who seem to have May in their pockets. The EU is aware that there are decent British people, but sad that they are not the ones coming to Brussels on behalf of the government. So they are trying to soften the outcome for the British people.

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:23 AM

A little old but fell by the wayside because of squawking abbot.
Question time and the roar of applause:


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-cheer-on-question-time-that-will-terrify-corbyns-labour/


and for light relief: Steptoe seniors theme song


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 10:38 AM

If Brussels oaid for my air fare and accommodation eytc I would talk to them tomorrow, and come up with a deal that follows the letter of the referendum result, ie withdrawal of the UK government and UK MEPs from the democratic decision making process, nothing else. My agreement would guarantee UK would follow the rules of the single market and customs union (while enjoying the benefits) until a further referendum held in the UK dictates otherwise. I would ensure that disadvantaged people in the UK continue to benefit from structural funding. I would also guarantee that UK legislation would follow or exceed expectations of EU cohension, social, international aid, environmental policies etc.I would have a no-strings re-entry agreement if at some time in the future UK decoides that it wants a say on the policies it has to follow after all. The negotiations wouldn't be about winning and losing, but what is in the best interest of UK and EU27 citizens. Unfortunately EU do not want to talk to decent intellegent people, but to self-serving idiots like May, Davis, Raab etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:30 AM

'If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.'

Well maybe they should. my parents lived through a time when they did just that.

You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM



And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

And that was one of the main reasons the EU was formed. And we've had peace in Europe ever since, allies with our former enemies.

What was it you were saying about "I wonder why there's never any room in your minds for doubt"? Well it cuts both ways, and that's exactly what we wonder about you Brexiteers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:07 PM

"Well maybe they should. My parents lived through a time when they did just that"

Well, yes, but with a near 100% agreement on the enemy, and doing so to resist what an enemy was attempting to achieve. That is somewhat different to the situation where some-48% of the population think it is being inflicted on them by the other some-52% against all their best interests...


You can't help thinking maybe people ought to understand that there's a price to be paid for being dependent on the good offices of your neighbours.


And there is a price to be paid if you generate ill-will in your neighbours.   It will not make trade deals easier to arrange if the UK appears to be incoherent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:09 PM

I do wish some people would stop fighting Againcourt all over again
The EU is a gathering of capitalist nations working together to make the best of a dying society - no great future, but a better one than that based on the Xenophobic isolationism that is Brexit
I'm curious Al, given the likely outcome, what practical advantages do you see in leaving Europe ?
HOPE YOU WEREN'T PLANNING ANY FOREIGN GIGS
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:50 PM

How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome. I remember various bombings in England from my younger days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 12:54 PM

If they wanted to bully the British people they would cut off food and energy supplies, and close their waters and airspace to anything heading for Britain.
Electricity imports fromFrance and the netherlands equals 1% of UK fuel imports
Oil(entrepôt product) from Netherlands 10% mainly refined as a result of closure of Milford Haven and Coryton refineries.
Coal less than 10% from EU
Gas 7% from EU


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 01:01 PM

Food was the first item in that list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM

So how does the gas get to the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:16 PM

mainly Norway and shipped from quatar and still some from the north sea


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:18 PM

Try Qatar. I should know how to spell, i have been there enough times geosteering for said gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 02:51 PM

I'm not sure how forest-for-the-trees we are getting. There are certainly many many interstitial items that fall out when this frictional divorce is underway. There is no way to see how the little pieces help or hurt.

The big hurt is the forced lack of connection in a very connected world.

European Union as noted in the Wikipedia article I referenced above is on the verge of being a Superpower. This is good in an age with another verging power, China, an errant Superpower, the US, and a would be power that is a big fat troublemaker, Russia, and who knows where India's going.

The other thing I can't get out of my mind is the not-so-secret but everywhere power that was brought to the EU by English itself. How could the UK give up its continued quiet conquest of the world by its very language? I know I know that there are other languages in the UK, but the Celtic contribution and occasional dominance in the UK has been through facility in the Engllish language. The United States is probably composed of 80% of people descended from non-English speakers, Canada somewhat less, but English is one of the world glues and a powerful advantage. Taking this away from the EU is a travesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:02 PM

"How far the border question hurts the UK will probably depend on just how violent some Irish people choose to get if they don't like the outcome"
I do wish people wouldn't do this - the problem is the unnatural and enforced border, not the Irishmen
Think the Home Bounties being partitioned off from the rest of Britain - that should give a feel of what things are about here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:12 PM

Approx 36% of energy used in the UK is imported.

Source UK Energy in Brief 2018, assetspublishingservice.gov.uk


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jos
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:45 PM

"Think the Home Bounties [I take it the 'B' another of your jokes] being partitioned off from the rest of Britain"

Where I live, the vote was more than 60% for remain - maybe we can be partitioned off and stay in the EU?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 03:59 PM

"...when they did just that"

"They" evidently being a word for all our fellow Europeans, to be identified with the Nazi regime in Germany.

I imagine we're going to get a lot of that if we are lumbered with a no deal exit. The people responsible will do their utmost to divert the blame for the unpleasant consequences from themselves on to those nasty foreigners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 04:26 PM

The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement. This agreement also extended the internal market to include most of the member states of the European Free Trade Association, forming the European Economic Area covering 15 countries.

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy. This was also when the three European Communities, including the EC, were collectively made to constitute the first of the three pillars of the European Union, which the treaty also founded. The EC existed in this form until it was abolished by the 2009 Treaty of Lisbon, which incorporated the EC's institutions into the EU's wider framework and provided that the EU would "replace and succeed the European Community"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:15 PM

@ Iain
“To choose the one single item that could cause dissent” is what everybody should have done from the start ,Iain . if you are driving a well looking for oil and find that there is a huge block that will break all drill bits known to man , you would , as an engineer ,proceed from that knowledge surely - whatever the quantities of black gold beneath the impregnable rock ?
@ KarenH .
You think that the murderous Irish are being stubborn . You’re entitled to your prejudices , Karen ,but you should have really thought about the stubborn, savage Irish before you embarked on your stupid referendum course in 2016 . You are a Remainer and would probably think that, unlike the savage Irish , British people shouldn’t all be tarred with the same Brexit brush .But remember that David Cameron who called the referendum is also a Remainer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: KarenH
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:36 PM

@Maymick
and your point is:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 06:55 PM

My point is that is was your referendum , not Ireland's but Ireland has to put up with the consequences.British nationalists can only think about what is best for Britain and not about the effect their policies have on other countries .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM

Another terrible Question Time. Fiona Bruce gave free rein on brexit to the ghastly and garrulous Tory woman, even allowing her to make an extensive interruption after she'd told her to shut up. To add insult to injury, the camera repeatedly sought out the sneering Tory woman at every opportunity as other panellists were speaking. In contrast, Bruce gave the other panellists much less time and made frequent interruptions. Half way through the show she made an extremely mumbled ten-second "correction" to her utter balls-up in last week's programme, and it was very noticeable that she didn't even refer to Diane by name. Blink and you'd have missed it. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience, though, as ever, there were occasional diamonds embedded in the crock of shite. A terrible advert for democracy. I reckon it's time for a radical rethink on this show. I'd like to see a far smaller audience for a start. In other words, Grr. And thank God I had Highland Park to hand. End of rant due to gradual mellowing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:35 PM

Steve the result was in part the work of Murdoch , yet you persist in financing him through sky box just tp watch football at least jim watches shakespeare, what do you expect


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:40 PM

I expect that I'll be ignoring you until you turn the bloody record over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:46 PM

I've never had a Sky Box by the way, and don't know what one is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:56 PM

i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island.

We need a planned approach to the seas around us. I just don't think the continued fishing by factory ships and even the big English fishing boats is sustainable.

Similarly I think we need to take charge of the wealth in the country, and subsidise the building of modern factories.

The EU law wouldn't allow the land grab this would involve. Then they wouldn't allow the subsidies.

I'm an old style socialist. I believe in a planned economy. Preferably planned by the English government. We need to get into government - unconstrained by Brussels,

In answer to Backwoodsman's point. Yes of course I have doubts. But I honestly believe we're in trouble if we don't change direction. The Blair government was heartbreaking for guys like me. After 18 years of tory intransigence and double-dealing. If we had reorganised then, we wouldn't be in this mess. Held to ransom by a tiny enclave in a highly unpopular government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:14 PM

As I've said God knows how many times, Al, the amount we pay into the EU is around one percent of our GDP. We get some of that back in farm subsidies and regional development grants (Cornwall, where I live, has had half a billion). True, we are net contributors. Our money goes into stabilising countries with weaker economies, helping to maintain their democracy. One percent of our GDP, to help maintain peace and stability in what has been a volatile continent since the dawn of time. But you gib at that? Al, did you actually KNOW how little of our money is tied up with the EU, you know, the stuff you agitate to "take back control" of? Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap? Tell you what, Al. Once we leave we'll be under the control of massive trading blocs who are in no hurry to give us any deals (not a single one so far, despite Liam Fox promising us forty by now). Enjoy your new-found non-freedoms and your new-found non-opportunities!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:37 PM

its not the point, Steve. The point is that after the war, we decided we wanted full employment.,,after alll the shit people went through in rhe 1930's.

Our industries weren't the most efficient in the world, but by subsidising them - we avoided having beggars on the street, a hard drugs problem, and all the other social ills that are commonplace in tough capitalist economies like the US.

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.

Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.

THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.

In Sutton in Ashfield, Notts. They have lost mining, mining equipment manufacture, textiles,   ceramics. The Eu has compensated them with an ornamental sundial. Go figure....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 08:57 PM

The EU was not responsible for those losses and you know it, Al.

Thing is, Al, we have been sold a big lie about the EU ever since the time of Wedgie Benn and Michael Foot (both blokes I admired in most other regards), not to speak of a litany of Tory eurosceptics. People like them ensured via their oft-misleading propaganda that we believed Europe was under the undemocratic control of Brussels bureaucrats, which was never even remotely true. All EU decisions, whether or not suggested by the Commission, are either agreed to by common consensus among 28 sovereign nations, put to the vote in the European Parliament, or vetoed. And of course the EU is protectionist. Tell me one major trading bloc that isn't. Yet you're happy for us to ditch the sort-of-protectionist EU in favour of the uber-protectionist US and China. I mean, wassup, Al!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:09 PM

A lot of people in the UK seem to be still fighting the last two world wars , only with the EU taking the place of Germany .As with Big Al’s post above :
“The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 19 - 09:47 PM

Well I suppose that's a better way of fighting a world war than the previous two. I've been to several EU countries for my hols and I love them. I find people there with the same hopes, aspirations, McDonalds and M&S as we have in the UK. I don't see dark animosity or plots to get us or desires to screw the UK. I feel quite European, actually. I want to go there as often as I can, as I love their summer warmth, their lovely grub, their friendly people and especially their gelati, and I want them to come here if they want. I've never been called up to fight Europeans, neither has my son. That's cracking good stuff is that. I'm off to bed now. Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:25 AM

if you do not knowwhat a sky box is ask Jim, in the meantime you are still supporting rupert murdoch , which is imo hypocritical, you gave the impression in an earlier post that you paid for sky television just to watch a soccer match , bloddy pathetic


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM

No , I don't know it.

Of course I have doubts when virtually every MP with an IQ above room temperature disagrees with me.

But I don't really see anyone actually countering my arguments. They just abuse them and me. And I remember the ten solid miles of steel factories outside Sheffield, I used to drive past on the way to gigs. And all the textile factories, where my father in law worked as a knitter and trimmer, round where I lived - making excellent goods like Viyella Shirts, and the skills that have been lost. And I see marks and Spencer shutting down stores everywhere cos they can't sell the cheap[ foreign made goods on their shelves at High Street prices. They offer Cotton Trader products at High Street prices.

And I think we've got it wrong and membership of the EU is part of the problem.

And I don't think we'll set it right til we're quit of them, and our MP's are answerable to US and not Brussels appointees, who keep our representatives of every party waiting and buggering about. And that is my sincere belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 AM

"i think Jim, the main advantage. I would see is environmental. Particularly the marine environment. We are after all an island."
So a Britain tied to Ecological vandal Trump is more likly to save the planet than being part of a group that is, at least, paying lip-service to co-operation and control - give us a break Al
We USED to be an island 0 one that controlled a large proportion of the world, but now we are totally reliant on others - we have no industries to speak of and no plans to develop any so on the one hand, we rely on cheaply produced goods manufactured in apalling conditions, from textiles to computers, while at the same time building walls to keep the people who make the goods we buy out
We fished the oceans empty before the days of Sam Larner so there is no chance of reviving our fishing industry, so instead of staying within a group where there is a chance of making the best of what's left cast ourselves adrift - crazy argument
Britain is totally incapable of "going it alone" for al the flag-wagging - it doesn't even have a united people or a Government capable of holding a whist drive, never mind leading a country
That is the referendum's legacy, and it hasn't even begun to bite yet
Jim   
If


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:06 AM

TRY THIS FOR SIZE AL
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:10 AM

"Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning..."
Probably same as me - because the pubs are closed (:-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM

Why am I posting at nearly three in the morning
I read it when I woke at about 5:50am. We nearly have 24h coverage of the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:45 AM

You don't need a Sky box to watch Sky, Dick.

Do you use petro chemicals? Eat food? Wear clothes? Each one of those industries is culpable in any number of human rights abuses yet you witter on about someone watching football on Sky. I know where the epithets pathetic and hypocritical should really be applied.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:53 AM

of course we can revive our seas. We must.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 24 Jan 19 - 07:24 PM
Another terrible Question Time. Shameful and pathetic. The icing on the cake was the ignorant, baying audience.

Freedom of Information request – RF20101013

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select from among the many applicants to participate in the 'Question Time' audience."
Please note that your request is outside the scope of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“ the Act”) but we are happy to explain that the programme ensures that there is due balance between the main political parties, as well as minor parties and unaligned voters in the audience.
We hope you find this helpful.

Did you actually know that when you voted leave or did you believe all the "take back control" claptrap?
Sovereignty is the word you mean!
Note:
control: the power to influence or direct people's behaviour or the course of events.
sovereignty: supreme power or authority. "the sovereignty of Parliament"
    synonyms:        jurisdiction, supremacy, dominion, power, ascendancy, suzerainty, tyranny, hegemony, domination, sway, predominance, authority, control, influence, rule, freedom

It should not be necessary to point out these vital distinctions! It was to escape external control and a re-assert sovereignty that the referendum was predicated upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:12 AM

I'm not saying that your article is wrong about the way things are. I'm saying -its not the way it should be. We need to rip up everything that's gone before and get marine biologists to work out a way forward that is sustainable and good for the future.

We owe it to future generations to make our seas healthy. I won't say again - past generations didn't really have the global vision that is so natural to us now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:18 AM

The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries.
Thatcher joyfully pounced on the this and used it to close down manufacturing industry in this country. Thus wresting political power from the Trade Unions.THe EEC was an integral part of Thatchers plans, despite apparently badmouthing it.


Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.
Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 05:51 AM

"of course we can revive our seas. We must."
Don't you think it strange that, despite the fact that Britain's fishing indistrt==y has been in steady decline for decades yet no Government, inside or out of Europe, has lifted a finger to help it ?
It has only surfaced now as an academic political ploy
The most likely scenario on the table now is that Britain will sacrifice the fishing rights to Europe in a deal benefiting other aspects of the economy
Britain's fishing will still remain in the hands of Europe, the only difference being that we will no longer have a say in it
Even if Britain crashes out of Europe, fishing will be way down the list of priorities, allowing the industry just to fade away completely
Crazy Al, crazy
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:02 AM

"Sounds good but the statistics simply do not support your view.

Coalmining
Textiles
Aircraft manufacture
heavy industry
All were in serious decline long before marvelous Maggie even started secondary school."


https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/culture/2013/01/meeting-our-makers-britain%E2%80%99s-long-industrial-decline

This has been pointed out numerous times on this forum and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive!"


Could you explain all that to Big Al please, Iains? He seems to be under the mistaken impression they were destroyed by the EU, despite repeated explanations to the contrary by those of us whose memories are still in full working condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 06:27 AM

"The EU forbade the subsidies as 'unfair competition'. Although they did in fact practice protectionism for their own industries."

The other way of putting that, Al, is that other countries used the flexibility built into the rules more intelligently than the UK, in such a way as to avoid unnecessary damage to their industries. The EU doesn’t have "their own industries". EU members do. And they didn't choose to elect a Margaret Thatcher and give her a licence to kill.

Blaming other people for our own cock-ups is very much the flavour of the times it seems. The same is done in the case of freedom of movement as interpreted by the UK government in a way that exploits both immigrants and natives in the interest of predatory employers.

And a pedantic point. "We are after all an island". No we aren't. England is not an island, nor is the UK. Great Britain is an island, but it has never been a country except between 1703 and 1801.


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