BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM

I agree it would have been better if I had put it in the election thread. Point taken there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:43 PM

It's all very well to portray it as guidance from patricians, but the thought process at the time would have been:
"I'm in a burning building, should I follow my instincts, and get out, or follow the advice of the fire brigade and stay put?"
While the fire brigade were giving what they believed (at the time) to be the best advice, it has since transpired that "I'm in a burning building, I need to get out" would have been the best response for most of the victims.
JRM may not have phrased that well, and it may be that there is no way to phrase it without risking offending someone. But, generally speaking, his comments were truthful.

And what has this to do with Brexit anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:43 PM

Sky News picks up Andrew Bridgen's 'defence'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

I don't know if anyone else here heard it, but if so what to you think of Andrew Bridgen's attempts to excuse Jacob Rees-Mogg's blunder? To me, Andrew's remarks were very nearly as bad in casting the majority of the population as in need of patricians to tell them what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:34 AM

That last point reinforced by Gove this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:58 PM

I note that Johnson has said that there is no way he would ask for an extension to the transition period at the end of 2020. As there is no chance of a deal with the EU being finalised by that date, he is in effect promising us a no-deal brexit. Be advised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:17 PM

Just now, on the BBC news, it was stated that the BBC understands that the report has received security clearance and that there is no administrative reason why the report can't be published.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:05 PM

That report needs to be leaked. Openness is crucial to democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 02:03 PM

Thanks DMcG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 02:00 PM

Block on release of investigation into Russian interference in EU referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM

'No 10 blocks Russia EU referendum report until after election'

That is the title of an article in the Guardian today.

I wonder what it contains that Johnson, who has had the report since at least the 17th October, wishes to keep from the UK electorate.

Could someone please link to the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM

And a very interesting opinion here from Prof. Sir John Curtice, the UK’s leading election expert, on the possible outcome of the election, and the very different effect the result may have on the two main parties...and hence on the likelihood of Brexit happening or, hopefully, not.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/shelagh-fogarty/professor-john-curtice-makes-surprising-prediction/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM

While the rats are busy fighting in the sack the polls will be all over the place. I will wait until around the 5th Dec and see how the polls are behaving then. Magic grandad is 12 points behind at present, and who knows what damage the brexit party will cause in the labour heartlands?
We need all the opening phase infighting to settle down and re evaluate what the polls may be indicating.It is interesting the way the polling changed as soonas the brexit party released their mission statement.
If the brexit party and torys refuse to deal the dynamics change! Can the torys take that risk? Is the treaty Boris is trying to ram through worse than remaining?
This will be an election on brexit, no matter what attempts are made to broaden the discussion,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:18 AM

Labour appears to be gaining in the polls and the Brexit Party down in the dumps were they belong
Liberal Democrats are losing support steadily
Johnson is refusing Farage's advances for now but is quite likely to do a fracking-like U-turn when he realise that The Brexit Party, with no chance of winning is quite likely to split the Tory vote down the middle
Early days yet - Trump is not beyond parachuting in the marines if things don't go his way, as described in MY ALL TIME FAVOURITE TV SERIAL
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

Meanwhile, back to the thread topic. A very interesting piece by William Keegan, attempting to alert the disenfranchised in our society that it was the Conservative Party’s Austerity, not the EU, that broke the UK and left them behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 03:53 AM

The danger of a Corbyn Victory in December.

Clearly the state of denial some are in is not shared in the real world.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1199346/Election-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-James-Cleverly-Labour-antisemitism-anti-Semitic-Jewi


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/02/jewish-families-will-leave-uk-jeremy-corbyn-wins-general-election/

We had better hope the populists win and give magic grandad a thorough trouncing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 03:44 PM

At last, in his speech on 1/11/19 opening the Brexit Party’s election campaign, Ole Haddock-Face finally confesses that Brexit is NOT ‘The Will of the People’...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 02:54 PM

Can’t agree about the origins of anti-EU populism ,Jim C. Whatever about the leave/ remain options on offer in the UK ballot paper, this thing called Brexit is the package people are going to get if Johnson and Farage get their way .
Thatcherism originated in the US in the 70s with the Chicago School of Economics before Thatcher came to power in the UK . Similarly, Brexit,which was not offered as an option in the 2016 referendum, comes from powerful, vehemently anti-EU interests in the US working with co-thinkers in the UK to break up a competitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 02:12 PM

For the pedantic:
Strictly speaking, 'fountain of all knowledge' is correct rather than 'fount' or 'font'. All three are used nowadays, but the original ?fountain' version was a 17th century quote and the other two are just more modern variants of that original.
The quote is from 'An Essay Concerning Human Understanding' by the philosopher, John Locke, published in 1690. Clearly, in it he was referring to God.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM

The truely shameful thing if that Farage succeeded using the arguments Enoch Powell was disgraced out of politics - a true measure of Britain's deterioration
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM

"There are other populist leaders in the world, of course."
I think ours have been the first to hit the big time in the 21st century
Not something I would boast about
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 01:04 PM

We certainly helped to get the tide flowing that way. There are other populist leaders in the world, of course. We desperately need to get these two out. And we need to stay in the EU, which is becoming the only decent major democratic bloc on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 12:36 PM

Unfortunately it was Brexit that first made populism a major threat by openig the door to anybody ruthless to use minorities and refugees as a way to the stars - we gave Trump his way in
The US has nothing to apologise for (for a change)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 11:17 AM

Well Worth Reading on both sides of the pond -

Why Trump is much worse than the UK’s Boris Johnson and Brexit

AlterNet 1 Nov 2019

Sorry, Britain, we win. And believe me, I’m sorrier about that than I can say.

Because from where I sit, our criminal president, Cheeto Benito Trump, has got your dissembling, cheating Boris Johnson beat by a corrupt mile. Or corrupt kilometer, depending on the country.

Yes, your Brexit crisis is completely miserable and soul-desiccating, no question about it, but as immobilizing and awful as it has been for the last three-and-a-half years, your current prime minister’s colossal wrongheadedness ultimately can’t compare with the corruption that has overwhelmed the United States with the virulence of Ebola...

Article continues HERE

PS: Please DO ignore the Bo, the Bad, and the Ugly- or they'll accomplish their objective, as Steve & others points out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 10:53 AM

THIS THOUGHTFUL PIECE IS WELL WORTH READING
AND THIS

And this is worth revisiting - the Jewish view (can't blue-clickie
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-conference-jewish-supporter-vote-political-weapon-a7330891.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:13 AM

Apologies to all the decent people here for resorting to Nigelism, but sometimes the Right-Wing Extremist Troll makes such a tit of himself it’s almost impossible to resist...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM

‘Font of truth and wisdom’?

Thy lack of education, evidenced by thy mondegreens, shall find thee out, squaddie. It’s fount.

https://grammarist.com/phrase/fount-of-knowledge-or-wisdom-vs-font-of-knowledge-or-wisdom/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM

As all lefties regard the gruniard as the ultimate font of truth and wisdom howsabout that:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/antisemitism

Mr shaw if you keep your semi housetrained troll under some semblance of control we can move forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:40 AM

Let's try to keep this thread going, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:39 AM

No probs, pete. I know I started this thread but I don't claim to own it. Brexit is of course massively tied up with the election so I can't see an issue with bringing the election into it. Tangential issues that have been done to death over several years are a different matter. And persistently trying to bring them into this thread is barefaced trolling. We shouldn't be surprised. Anyone who is signed up here is free to start their own thread. Now it's pretty undeniable that there was a large element of xenophobia whipped up in the referendum campaign, and it's legitimate to bring it here. It is not legitimate to jump in with a load of opportunistic whataboutery. I suggest that no-one responds to it in this thread. Let's hope the mods agree and that we can keep the thread afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:57 PM

There's a piece in the Guardian by Jonathan Freedland, who usually gets on me nerves big time with his bees in his bonnet, that resonated with me. Here's a chunk:

But if we won’t know who’s won till 12 December – and maybe not even then – we already know what’s been lost. The current parliament is about to breathe its last; its final act will be the election of a new Speaker on Monday. As they leave, transformed from MPs back into mere candidates, the members of the old House will have ringing in their ears the booming voice of the attorney general, Geoffrey Cox, who in a pantomime performance in September told them they were “a disgrace”, that they had lost the “moral right to sit on these green benches”. Echoing, too, will be the words of both this prime minister and the last one, denouncing them as saboteurs of the popular will, even as agents of “surrender” to a foreign enemy.

Such churn is normal at any election, but there’s something different this time.
Yet in truth, far from waving off the outgoing Commons with jeers and condemnation, we should thank them for their service. The very fact that Boris Johnson itched to see them gone is testament to their achievement. They had done their job – of acting as a restraint on the executive – with unusual ingenuity and even, whisper it, bravery.

Remember, this was a government that, had it had its own way, would have suspended parliament altogether, using the ancient royal power of prorogation. (It’s thanks to campaigners, lawyers and the wise 11 judges of the supreme court that it was stopped.) Johnson was urging the nation to jump off the 31 October cliff into a no-deal Brexit.

What held him back? Only the imagination and industry of a handful of MPs – Oliver Letwin, Yvette Cooper, Dominic Grieve, Hilary Benn and others – who were determined to find a way to block no deal, one that a majority of MPs could agree on. They succeeded. And then they succeeded again less than a fortnight ago, ensuring that Johnson was not allowed to steamroller his new EU deal into law in just three days. It’s thanks to them that, this weekend, we are still in the European Union.

Letwin, Grieve and the rest of the 21 Tories who were later purged from their party risked their careers to do that, putting the national interest first. It required working with others across the party divide. It required standing up to their leader, their whips, their local activists and a fiercely hostile pro-Brexit press. When it would have been so much easier to keep their heads down, they showed courage.

It also helped having a Speaker in John Bercow who, hardly shy of public attention, knew his duty was to defend parliament against the power-grabbing instincts of the executive.

That's a sane and rational appraisal of the last few weeks in m'humble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:58 PM

No need to apologise, Maggie. We have vicious populists here too. We just have to fight to get them sidelined in elections, just as you do. This election is pivotal, as is yours next year. Let's fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 02:44 PM

"Anyway, let's stick to brexit in this thread, eh?"
Yup
Johnson is on a hiding to nothing
If he doesn't drop the deal the Tory vote will be split by the Brexit party taking away votes
If he refuses to form a partnership with Farage Trump will almost certainly block any future Trade deal so if Britain leaves Europe it will have lost one of its major sources of Trade
Shafted, good and proper PBTG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM

One of the problems with Brexit ahs been that the populism, particularly that regarding race) has been taken up and is being used all over Europe
We are now feeling the percussions in Ireland where residents of small towns chosen to house refugees are protesting (about four now) extremist right groups have honed in and made each protest a cause celebré and are using them as propaganda
Last year Marine LéPen proposed a federation of extremist groups - this seems to be part of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:51 AM

All of the rational portion of the United States offers an apology with profound sense of shame that the meddlesome Resident of the United States has set his sites on supporting xenophobic racists in other countries. The only reason we can figure is that he has a thing for dictators who refuse to consider human rights. He is also willfully stubborn in refusing to accept advice from experts or about trying to educate himself regarding what the job of President is supposed to perform. He will never be your ally, he's only in it for himself, probably to inject revenue into any property he owns within your boundaries. #HeadsUp

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:37 AM

Racist Farage has demanded that racist Johnson abandons his proposals for Brexit otherwise his racist Brexit Party will contest every seat in the General Election
Racist Trump has suggested an leadership alliance between Farage and the Tories - and what we know what Trump's "suggestions" mean - ask Greenland
So a disgraced right-wing inept and disgraced political opportunist stands to joing up with an inept clown to guide Britain though the greates threat to its future that it has faced
Happy days      

"So you are suggesting the present enquiry is spurious?"
ABSOLUTELY
No atatcks on Jews - no antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 09:20 AM

If anyone here wants to resurrect that tired old antisemitism stuff, sod off and start a thread on it, please. Now if not sooner. I want this one to keep going, thanks.

Good to see that Jeremy has two new friends, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump!

The latest Tory lie is that a Labour win would generate two referendums in 2020. Even if Labour and the SNP form some sort of alliance, there is no chance of an independence referendum next year. It's just bullshite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:25 AM

May's Deal aka Boris's deal is a reparations treaty with worse terms than staying in the EU.


There has never been a shred of evidence that Labour has a major problem with discrimination against the Jewish People

So you are suggesting the present enquiry is spurious?
Do not be ridiculous! If the enquiry is nonsense, as you suggest, why is the Labour party scared it might face bankruptcy? As usual your arguments are but hot air, and merely trying to provoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

The greased albino piglet vs the nicotine stained toad.

Should be an interesting match. Who will out-lie who?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM

I see Farage has just declared the Johnson deal to be so bad it would amount to "the end of Brexit."

it would be interesting to see how the Brexiteers on this site think they should vote then. Of course, a vote is secret so they are under no obligation to tell us, but they could still indicate whether they think the proposed deal is 'great' as Johnson claims, or 'the end of Brexit' as Faeage thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:24 AM

There has never been a shred of evidence that Labour has a major problem with discrimination against the Jewish People - all accusations of "antisemitish have come from 'Friends of Israel' in various forms and right-wing political opponents of Corbyn
There was not a single complaint made against Labour until Corby gave his support to The Palaestinians - not one
Israel has deliberately blurred the lines between attacks against Jews and criticsm of Israeli policy, which has harmed the Jewish Poeple as much as it has harmed the Labour Party - synagogues have now come under attack by right-wing groups in Europe - from the right - never from the left
Israel has over the last 18 months killed three times more unarmed demonstrators than were shor down at Sharpville and the press has been totally silent about this fact for fear of being branded "antisemitic"
No attacks on Jews - no antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 06:16 AM

With all the unsubstantiated claims of racism being hurled about, instead of reasoned argument, let us look at the facts.
In May, the Equality and Human Rights Commission announced an inquiry into whether Labour had "unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they are Jewish". (clearly an accusationof waycism)
From the Independent:(Oct.12 2019)
Members of Labour’s ruling executive have privately voiced fears that the party could be bankrupted as a result of an official inquiry into antisemitism, The Independent has learnt.

Members of the National Executive Committee (NEC) have expressed concerns that a damning verdict from the equalities watchdog about Labour’s handling of antisemitic abuse could open the party up to a slew of lawsuits from Jewish members and former members, possibly resulting in hefty damages having to be paid.

It is understood that the issue was discussed at a recent NEC meeting, with members of the committee voicing major concerns about the fallout from the probe and who would be financially responsible.

This would suggest chuckleberry's previous enquiry on the same matter was a whitewash.
Terrible things facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:46 AM

Heheh. Was that little HMV doggy peering into the sound-horn really a poodle, Jim? That would be very appropriate!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:44 AM

We had Liam Fox doing "dither and delay" this morning. I tell you, that stupid expression will be all over the place like a rash in no time at all. Ironic, really, when you think that Boris could have had his deal through by now if only he'd allowed a sensible period of time for scrutiny. Doing his deal then pulling it when things were going swimmingly was an excellent example of dither and delay, I'd say. Still, if you want an election you have to have someone to blame for something, I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:40 AM

".Farage (the racist) and Johnson (the other racist)....""
Whoops - sorry
To a degree it doesn't matter what Johnson is when he becomes Trump's glove-puppet - his (Britain's) role will be confined to obeying HMV
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:33 AM

"Trumps deliberate support for Farage (the racist) and Johnson..."

You misspoke, Jim. You should have said "...Farage (the racist) and Johnson (the other racist)...." Piccaninnies, watermelon smiles, letterboxes, bank robbers - remember?

It feels like the morning after one of those end-of-the-world predictions that didn't come true. I wonder whether our brexiteers would like to turn the clock back. Tock, tick...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:06 AM

if Johnson wins, with a strong hard Brexit majority we could leave by 31st January 2020, or even perhaps 1st January. At which point he will be in power for the next five years. so it is perfectly right and proper to focus on the time after Brexit day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

The Labour strategy is to try almost to divorce Brexit from the other issues, arguing that can be settled further down the line in a referendum with a "credible" Leave option and Remain on the ballot.

Labour policy in a nutshell: Fiddle about, fiddle about.
We all know what happened to Rome when Nero had the same policy.
The turkey roast should be a stunner in December!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:27 AM

"You mention 'foreign interference'. Where have I supported that?"
Trumps deliberate support for Farage (the racist) and Johnson and his attack on one of the main candidates in the forthcoming election ids totally unprecedented - it is a blatant attempt to influence the selection o the party that will have to clean up the mess of Brexit and put Britain on its feet again
What Trump has said so far is a step away from saying "If you elect this man there will be no Trade Deal" - given his track record that is on the cards as a next step
Given the unstable monster that Trump has proven to be, the silence of you and yours at his behaviour (and the open support from your running mate) is an utter disgrace - "traitorous" to borrow a phrase now being bandied about by your lot
As I said - you shoud be ashamed of yourself for lying down and allowing this to happen without comment
Shame on you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM

Despite what some people claim, Labour's position is very clear, as Steve says. But in fact you can go further. Labour is trying to get a deal *precisely because* it is respecting the referendum result. If they did not, there would be no need to seek a deal. And any deal they negotiate will be to leave and therefore 100% compatible with the 2016 result, which did not insist on any specific kind of leave, whatever Brexiteers would have you believe. Then they will put it to a confirmatory vote *precisely because* the 2016 did not say how we should leave so it is desirable to ask the question "Did we get this right?"

Also, we can anticipate future criticism that they will deliberately negotiate a bad deal to try to make people vote it down. They are aware the outcome of a second referendum could go either way, so they want all options to be as good as possible because they may have to implement it and live with the consequences.