BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:07 AM

Good old enemies of the people, eh! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:16 AM

It does leave open the possibility of proroguing the Parliament immediately. What poor old Queenie is supposed to do then when the judges said he prorogued specifically to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny is not exactly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:43 AM

I can't see him, in light of this judgement, daring to do it except for just the usual few days for a Queen's Speech. If we actually need one right now, that is...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

But that is exactly what Johnson did, prorogued Parliament for 'just a few days'. The rest of the 5 weeks (often claimed as the length of the prorogation) is just the usual break for the Party conferences.

The UK Parliament site gives details of the normal timings of Parliamentary recesses:
The House has breaks during the year when it doesn’t meet. The precise timings of recesses vary each year and dates are announced by the Leader of the House. The recess calendar lists the published dates.
Even if the dates haven't been announced yet, you can usually work out roughly when they will fall because recesses follow a general pattern (assuming that the State Opening of Parliament is at its normal time in May):
Whitsun recess: a week in late May to early June
Summer recess: late July to early September
Conference recess: Mid-September to early October (accommodating the party conferences)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:07 AM

Nigel. That was all discussed and reviewed in court and the judges have decided you are wrong. Disagree as much as you like, but it has be ruled on and simply repeating the argument that was judged faulty is a waste of effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

If Johnson isn't finished Britain is - he's debased everything it claims to stand for
He should do what Powell did and apply to join the DUP
What a ***** shower
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:42 AM

Nigel, Parliament was prorogued (or not) for five whole weeks. When conferences are going on, parliament is recessed by general consensus, and may be recalled. It was open to Johnson to announce the usual few days' prorogation before the intended date of his Queen's Speech. He chose to do what the Supreme Court has soundly bollocked him for instead. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the difference between a recessed parliament and a prorogued parliament. They are a very long way from being the same thing in constitutional terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:48 AM

Indeed. And the fact the Parliament will.ait tomorrow DURING the conference season is evidence that you cannot simply strike out the conference season as a time Parliament does not sit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:05 AM

I've just heard Johnson, speaking in America, saying that we have to get the UK out on the 31 October "because that is what we are mandated to do." Dunno whether to put that down to mere sloppy talk or a downright extra lie...

No binding referendum, no mandate, no parliamentary consent, no majority, no integrity, no respect for the rule of law...

Why we should ever hold this particular political promise sacred, above all the other broken ones, is anyone's guess... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:12 AM

What sense can there be having a Queen's Speech about the plans for the next session and then promptly having a General Election? That just means treating the Queen's Speech as Party Political Election Broadcast, and that sounds distinctly unconstitutional.

There is a strong case for impeaching Mr Boris Johnson for "high crimes and misdemeanours", with the House of Lords deciding on "the appropriate punishment within the law" - which rules out chopping his head off, as might have been his fate in the old days in the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:37 AM

"because that is what we are mandated to do."
These pricks can't stop themselves lying - this is what they were mandated to do - this year, next year, sometime - and as things have obviously turned out - NEVER
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Don't the Tories here care what their leader continually lies on their behalf ? - Nigel !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 11:09 AM

Under normal circumstances if a minister is found to have acted unlawfully they resign (or are asked to resign)

Is anyone taking bets that Johnson does not such thing.

He said he disagreed with the courts decision.

I suspect that most people found guilty of misdemeanors also disagree with the courts decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

There seems to be some confusion amongst the Brexit-Bunch about the prorogation and the Supreme Court’s decision...

Not right bright are they, these Brexiteers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:49 PM

What these judges have very clearly achieved is the politicisation of the judiciary. This will mean that the higher levels of the judiciary will inevitably follow the American pattern and become political appointments. This is as sure as night follows day. I am not convinced this is such a good idea.The Supreme Court finding has put a distinct twist on the 1688 bill of rights and smacks of judicial interference into the political realm.
This will have consequences yet to be seen. I suspect after the next general election the judicial interference in politics will be stopped in it's tracks by legislation clearly ringfencing what the judges can and cannot do. Similarly the actions of the speaker will be curtailed in such a way that legislation can only be passed with the consent of the ruling party. Parliament already has remedies it is called a general election. As it stands Parliament is in opposition to the people.
This can only be a shortlived affair before the people assert their rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

The barrier in front of politicisation of the Supreme Court is that most of its decisions can be reversed by the executive through the legislature, if it can command a a majority.

It would be perfectly possible to pass a law that would make it legal to prorogue Parliament for any length of time and for any reason. In the same way it would be perfectly possible and perfectly legal to abolish any human rights legislation or sommon law rights. Getting out of the EU would make that a lot easier.

Not having any Constitution does have its dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

A constitution can be dangerous too though. Look at the US second amendment!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:14 AM

Back in Charter 88 days, it had a written constitution as an objective. Margaret Thatcher responded with one of her wiser comments "Some of the most oppressive regimes have written constitutions."

Written constitutions have a major flaw: a determined wrecker can find loopholes. With an unwritten one, there is scope for addressing them at the time, as has just occurred.

That doesn't mean we should not have a written constitution, but it is no panacea.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:27 PM

Good to see Corbyn is still avoiding the Elephant Trap, even though the Government has built the same obvious trap three times now. It smacks of a lack of imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:27 PM

The irony is that in certain situations the absence of a written constitution can be less dangerous than having one. Our combination of having no written convention, but with Human Rights legislation that has put a limit on the powers of the government. One advantage of EU membership has been that it has guaranteed continued membership of the Council of Europe's Convention of Human Rights Conventional.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:40 PM

One advantage of EU membership has been that it has guaranteed continued membership of the Council of Europe's Convention of Human Rights Conventional.

The statement above seems to pay no heed to the fact that the UK is a signatory to The seven UN treaties :

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights             (ICESCR)
International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD)
Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)
Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment (CAT)
Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC)
Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD)

By ratifying the treaties, the UK has pledged to make sure its domestic laws and policies comply with them. This means the Commission, Parliament and civil society can hold the Government to account against the terms of the treaties.

Formal monitoring of the UK’s treaty obligations is done by the relevant UN treaty body.

.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:07 AM

According to the BBC Live feed "If Johnson does skip PMQs, that would be seen as a gross courtesy to the Commons."

I am sure there will amend it to 'discourtesy' in a minute or two, but they may have been right first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

Jsonon's behaviour linked to Labour MPs office (friend of Jo Cox) being raided by Brexit criminal screaming "fascist"
Johnson says he deplores violence but refuses to apologise for hs violence inciting language
Nice to see our PMs are still setting a good example
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:32 PM

Jsonon's behaviour linked to Labour MPs office (friend of Jo Cox) being raided by Brexit criminal screaming "fascist"

I think he was a remainiac. The clue is in the name!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 08:18 PM

There would be nothing in the British "constitution" that would make it unlawful to abrogate any treaties. Given an obedient Parliament there are no limits on what a British government can do. So long as the government stays within the law, as appropriately amended if need be, there is nothing the courts could do to stop it.

Where Mr Boris Johnson tripped up was that he did not stay within the law, and hadn't been able to change the law so that it allowed him to do what he wanted to do.

The only thing that in theory could get in the way would be a refusal by the Head of State.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:08 AM

I was talking recently with a local florist - a one-person business, not part of a huge chain. They are not really interested in politics and don't follow it much, but are desperate for 'this mess' to be over: they do not know what it will cost them to provide tulips for a wedding next year, for example.


For interest, this is what a florist magazine site thinks, which seems to be trying to keep a fairly neutral stance to me.

So what this person wants is for it to be over, and that is more important than anything else. Which is why the 'no deal' rhetoric is so appalling in my view: those proposing that know that gets nothing 'over': it is necessarily the start of long periods of negotiation of new deals, which are, by definition, uncertain in their outcome. But it may deceive some people like this this to think it ends the uncertainties that are damaging their small businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

Absolutely correct, DMcG. I do have to smile when I hear the rhetoric of Johnson and his cronies, when they go on about ‘Getting Brexit over and done’ on 31/10/19. Of course, it will be no such thing - it will be just The Start. The start of years and years of negotiations.

There is no such thing as a ‘No Deal Brexit’ - the deals have to be done? It’s a question of whether they are done pre- or post-Leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 08:53 PM

The only way "to be done with it" would be to abandon the whole Brexit enterprise.

In fact that needn't even involve reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. All we voted for was to leave the European Union. Nothing to do with getting out of the Customs Union or the Single Market, or ending freedom of movement around Europe. Brexiteers have repeatedly said that just leaving the EU without those things wouldn't be Brexit. Fine, no one never voted for "Brexit".

In fact undoubtedly for a lot of people their vote had nothing to do with Europe at all. Voting to Leave was a great way to kick out at David Cameron and the Tory government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 09:10 PM

"Get brexit done" is the latest Cummings mantra. You'll hear it a hundred times a day from here on in.

Great piece by Catherine Bennett in today's Observer (probably on the Guardian website too but I haven't checked) about the Beeb and its vox pops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 11:02 PM

Correct, Steve. During the Referendum campaign in 2016, Every sentence Bozo uttered ended with the vile Cummings’s mantra, “Take Back Control”. Now, every sentence includes, “Get Brexit Done”.

I just wonder why people fall for meaningless slogans. Don’t Brexiteers actually think about what they hear?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:31 PM

Curious article in the Guardian regarding food supplies in the UK and the probably/possible implications of a no-deal Brexit. The final paragraph is particularly telling.

Could someone please provide a link "What Britain Buys and Sells in a Day"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:47 PM

Here is the link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:00 PM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:23 PM

Bizarre comment on Newsnight that the front page of the Times says Johnson wants to ask Brussels to rule out no deal in exchange for a promise from him to get a deal through Parliament.


That makes no sense whatsoever.

1. No one feels inclined to take the PM at his word in the first place.

2. He would be promising something that is not in his remit: Parliament will decide whether a deal is acceptable and he has no majority to ensure they would.

3. No one has actually defined what this deal is.

4. ... and in particular whether it meets the EU requirements.


And one of the Tory panel - because it is at the conference - said he thought it a promising way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

And as I forgot to day, if he can get a deal through Parliamnwt the extension would not be needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:47 PM

I gotta say, thanks, Brits, for trying to make us feel better. It is almost working. -Mrrica

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:12 PM

I must congratulate the parliamentary rebels! They squeal to the courts to recall parliament and since they returned they have simply wasted time acting like escapees from a kindergarten. So much so that the Tories are ignoring them and continuing with their party conference.

The real icing on the cake is the halfwit, tin hat wearing McDonnell wasting even more parliamentary time, with the connivance of the fully rogue Bercow, in allowing him to indulge further in the comprehensively debunked conspiracy theory that the PM is being backed by “speculators who have bet billions on a hard Brexit” – a falsehood pushed by former chancellor Philip Hammond earlier this week.
So impressive is this allegation that Two of McDonnell’s former advisors have now debunked the conspiracy theory – namely James Mills and James Meadway.
I suspect my pet goldfish knows more about currency manipulation than
McDonnell. Someone in Parliament should answer McDonnell and tell him that if hedge funds really wanted to make a fortune shorting the country they would be promoting the Labour Party over Brexit because that would create sure and certain economic calamity. Especially with him in number eleven.

Maybe we will have other urgent questions put before Bercow on other conspiracy theories, including whether the moon is made of cheese, and whether DCMS are aware that Michael Jackson is in fact still alive, or has Elvis really been seen on the moon.........

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:18 PM

As I understand it, he's likely to try to get someone like Orbán to veto any request for an extension as his ploy to crash us out without a deal on 31 October. It would take just one nation to do that veto. I wonder how much the Commission can lean on its national leaders to do the right thing... One thing's for sure. There is nothing even remotely approaching a deal in the pipeline. The EU has already trashed his elaborate pie-in-the-sky nonsense about customs posts away from the border and "technological solutions." Bullshit reigns supreme.

This bloke is going to get away with lying repeatedly to the country, shitting on the legacy of Jo Cox, giving taxpayer bungs to his lover and putting his hand up women's skirts, because the leaver-ignorantes of this country think that these things don't matter, that he's just a characterful Jack-the-lad. If he's still in office in six months' time they'll soon see how much they do matter. Unfortunately, the rational among us won't feel inclined to indulge in schadenfreude.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 08:12 PM

Looking into EU attitudes to this a bit more, it seems very unlikely that any member of the European Council would go so far as to carry out that veto. In fact, the Hungarian foreign minister has already said no. Orbán would have a lot to lose by alienating himself with the other leaders. It's a technical possibility only, and it's not what EU leaders do in any case, decisions generally being arrived at at that level by consensus. And if Johnson were seen to be doing that underhand kind of asking and getting told to shove off, he'd look like an even bigger law-evading dolt than he does now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Johnson wants Brussels to rule out no deal in exchange for a promise from him to get a deal through Parliament.

Overhasty comment on my part there, sorry. What I meant was "Brussels to rule out *an extension* in exchange for a promise from him to get a deal through Parliament, and all my comments were based on what I intended to say, not what I did.

The Times article is now available online.


Even if Johnson brought back the existing Withdrawal Agreement and persuaded all ERGers to swallow their pride and vote for it even with the hated backstop, and added everything Labour had asked for to the political declaration, I do not see how he could swing it, because the declaration is not binding, so he could just drop such declarations whenever he wanted, and no one trusts him not to do that. Perhaps his only hope of getting a majority would be to make it subject to a binding referendum but that could not be held without an extension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 04:59 AM

The sands of time are running out! A General Election is just over the horizon, where the electorate will have the chance to dethrone the rebels wholesale and have payback for their constant cheating, mendacity and absolute betrayal of their election manifestos.
There are several here that like to quote Burke. But seemingly they overlook the fact that when he spelt out his position(I go my own way-Bollocks to the Burghers) to the good Burghers of Bristol they lost no time in making his arse grass.
Never again was he elected to Parliament, he was selected to represent Rotten Boroughs.
    This little bit of history encapsulates a "lesson learnt", shortly to be harshly brought home to those MPs so full of hubris that they cannot see.
This will truly be a popcorn moment to savour and enjoy. Democracy will be restored and the people regain their sovereignty!
There seem to be some here argue that Parliament is sovereign.The antics of the treacherous bercow and the rebels patently illustrate the absurdity of such a definition. The only word that describes their most recent activities is a coup.
A coup d'état, also known as a putsch, a golpe de estado, or simply as a coup, means the overthrow of an existing government; typically, this refers to an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a dictator, the military, or a political faction (the remainiacs)

concepts of sovereignty
by Kofi Annan
State sovereignty, in its most basic sense, is being redefined—not least by the forces of globalisation and international co-operation. States are now widely understood to be instruments at the service of their peoples, and not vice versa. At the same time individual sovereignty—by which I mean the fundamental freedom of each individual, enshrined in the charter of the UN and subsequent international treaties—has been enhanced by a renewed and spreading consciousness of individual rights. When we read the charter today, we are more than ever conscious that its aim is to protect individual human beings, not to protect those who abuse them.

Interesting discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 05:37 AM

DMcG, I'd gleaned what you'd intended straight away!

The furore surrounding our charlatan prime minister rages unabated. I rarely listen to Woman's Hour, but the outrage among women over his trivialising of his issues with women clearly isn't going away. Nor should it. Nicky Morgan got it in the neck after her fawning and dismissive attitude on the matter on Newsnight last night (I must say that Emily Maitlis is getting better by the day). On a different tack, I see that Cummings is expecting "to spend the last two weeks of October in court."   Looks like The Party Of Laura Norder is beginning to think that it's one law for them and another for us...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 06:31 AM

What a good thing it is, Steve, that there are courageous individuals in Parliament who understand their obligations as MPs - to act in the best interests of the entire nation, not just to bow to the wishes of a small minority of the population, even at the risk of their political careers and personal safety and well-being.

Time will show them to be the heroes of this disastrous, ridiculous Brexit idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 07:03 AM

Duncan Carswell - First elected member of Parliament for
THESE SCUMBUCKETS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:26 AM

If someone, anyone, wishes to quote me, that’s fine, I’m perfectly happy to stand by my own words. However, I would request that any quote is of my words in their entirety - selective quotes present a distorted misrepresentation of what my words were intended to convey.

Here’s what I said, in its entirety....

”What a good thing it is, Steve, that there are courageous individuals in Parliament who understand their obligations as MPs - to act in the best interests of the entire nation, not just to bow to the wishes of a small minority of the population, even at the risk of their political careers and personal safety and well-being.

Time will show them to be the heroes of this disastrous, ridiculous Brexit idiocy.”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM

Word is leaking out that Johnson's "new proposals" for Brexit of the Irish Border were put forward to Europe as an idea weeks ago and were so practical as to be forgotten about
They involve an Irish border where there has to be check on both sides, when you arrive and on the others side
They have already been dismissed by both the DUP and the Irish Government as unacceptable
It is suggested that Johnson will 'REVEAL ALL' tomorrow and, when he's satisfied all the Tory ladies, might talk about his Cunning Plan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM

Meanwhile magic grandad is too busy rehearsing his new cover single to do anything useful.


Run, Run, Run, Run, Runaway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:55 AM

Must've missed that, John - we have a fixer onside I presume!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 01:13 PM

Boris says border checks are inevitable on the Irish Border - both sides
He has promised they will geep inconveniences down to a minimum
Good luck with that ***** one, say local businesses on both sides
I hope the E U says the same but on Boris's record of wining friends and influencing people, I very much doubt if even the DUP will support that self-harm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:01 AM

Good to see the political moderation still occurring on Mudcat. Presumably the lefties cannot take the truth about the constant absurdity of their arguments and must be protected.

Meanwhile they can insult with gay abandon.

This is not moderation it is partisanship by a moderator that has no clue about british politics.

What do you hope to achieve by such tactics?
You fool no one by allowing only a complete distortion of reality to be posted by remainiacs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 08:10 AM

Frank Fields has proposed a Parliamentary vote on the latest government proposals, so ai thought I would check whether Parliament voting in favour of his proposal would satisfy the Act started by Benn et al.

No, as I read it. The act says a withdrawal agreement needs to have been concluded with the EU. In law, concluded does not just mean ended, it requires success. So walking away would not count.